--- Log opened Thu Nov 26 00:00:29 2009
00:02 < nictuku> how do I convert []byte to string?  looping through each
byte and then concatenating that into a new string object doesn't seem like a good
idea
00:02 < alexsuraci> nictuku: string(a)
00:02 < sladegen> there was recently some fix to it revolving around
deps.bash...
00:02 < nictuku> alexsuraci: ah :-)
00:02 < sladegen> Rob_Russell: also when you encounter it search issues
before submitting anything, it's old known bug.
00:03 < Ibw> nictuku: Have you tried just casting the []byte to a string?
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00:03 < Ibw> *looks like alexsuraci beat me to it
00:03 < Rob_Russell> sladegen: i thought i remembered someone mentioning it
here before
00:03 < sladegen> yeah, old tired bug at that.
00:05 < sladegen> and by fix i meant to rebuild failing in spite of
clean.bash.
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00:18 < Ibw> Darn, this time cgo really did have a bug that stopped me
making Gtk+ wrappers
00:18 < XniX23> lbw: is it fixed now?
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00:20 < Ibw> XniX23: No, I submitted an issue.  (the bug I was having the
other day was just because I wasn't synced to the newest tip)
00:21 -!- iaefai [n=iaefai@Glory.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #go-nuts
00:24 < Zeffrin> dang I hate full time work, thoroughly interested in
exploring this language but no time to do it :(
00:24 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@71.188.133.67] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
00:25 < Zeffrin> on another topic, with the release of go to the public has
Go become a fulltime project there?
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#go-nuts
00:27 <+danderson> "there" ?
00:27 < sladegen> Zeffrin: there=Google?  judging by "hg log" i don't think
so...
00:27 < Zeffrin> at google...  before release it was something they refered
to as a 20% project or something meaning dev could use up to 20% of their time to
work on it if they chose to
00:28 < Ibw> GMail was the same way.
00:28 < iaefai> hmm, issue 9 is almost at 1000 comments
00:28 < alathon> are there any 'official' comments on issue 9?
00:29 <+danderson> it's been a full time project for much longer than the
open source release
00:29 < sladegen> i think they are biding their time (think year or two,
depending when and how chromeos pans out).
00:29 < Ibw> I wonder how Google could justify paying employees full time
for Go though.  Once they really do adopt Go as internal language for systems
programming, perhaps they could.  As of now though, there is no user data
collecting capability or source of income
00:29 < Ibw> danderson: Oh, alright
00:29 <+danderson> Ibw: we also built a custom build system, and loads of
other developer productivity tools.  Why would a sane systems programming language
be any different?
00:30 < jessta> Ibw: research is important
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00:30 < Ibw> danderson: Perhaps I was talking a bit of gibberish, but from
what I understand, Google (you, I suppose), can't really use Go internally for
much useful, because it isn't very mature.
00:30 <+danderson> and also what jessta said
00:31 < iaefai> I would be interested in something like cabal for go
00:31 -!- biosed [i=biosed@2001:770:188:0:7171:8f10:4d7a:4fc3] has quit
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00:31 < Ibw> hah, sure.  I'm not complaining.  Google engineers full time on
Go is fantastic
00:31 < Zeffrin> i suppose they need to invest time in it before it becomes
mature enough to consider using it themselves but if they dont make that
investment it'll never happen
00:31 <+danderson> Ibw: correct.  However, a portion of our resources is
always dedicated to "blue sky" research
00:31 <+danderson> (not talking about 20% here)
00:31 < Ibw> danderson: I think that's great.  That sort of thing is what
sets Google apart from other silicon valley companies
00:31 <+danderson> you never know what might turn up and be the Next Big
Thing.
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00:32 < jessta> danderson: "blue sky"?  anything like sky-net?
00:32 < alathon> ^^
00:32 < Amaranth> arg heisenbug
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00:32 <+danderson> although, in Go's case, it's not purely blue sky, since
if it fulfills its promises, there is a big ROI in developer productivity
00:32 < Zeffrin> i can tell you, i wish my employer would let me spend up to
20% working on tools that might be useful here
00:33 <+danderson> which means huge savings (or higher development velocity,
if you look at it another way)
00:33 <+danderson> given that we program in C++, and, well, C++ being the
way it is...
00:33 <+danderson> not dissing, it gets things done, but if you tickle it
the wrong way, boy.
00:33 < iaefai> Does Go have any current or potential support for
functionality such as a Maybe/Either monad where you have a full sequence of
actions you can run through and if any one of the functions has an error the rest
are ignored and you can deal with it at the end of the sequence?
00:34 < alathon> True, but it usually takes a long time for a language to be
considered mature enough for corporate use.
00:34 <+danderson> alathon: delays are somewhat shorter when you employ the
creators and main developers of the language
00:34 < KirkMcDonald> iaefai: This sounds vaguely like what the testing
package does
00:34 < KirkMcDonald> .
00:34 <+danderson> having on staff the people who can fix problems as they
crop up makes it easier to take risks :)
00:35 < alathon> danderson: Thats true ;)
00:35 < alathon> danderson: I suppose I also refer to how long it will take
before others adopt it
00:35 <+danderson> iaefai: not to my (limited) knowledge, although it's
something I found myself wanting in C++ just the other day as well.
00:35 < iaefai> Another thing that would be rather nice to see is a parser
combinator library, but either way - is there any kind of parser support in Go?
00:35 < nictuku> ouch, the log API does not show errors.  this is bad if I
want to use a special logger (in this case, my syslog logger).
00:36 < sladegen> iaefai: goyacc
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00:36 < sladegen> iaefai: go also has built in parser facilities for itself.
00:36 <+danderson> iaefai: to parse go itself, there is the go.parser
package.  For generic parsing, I don't recall anything in the stdlib.
Contributions would be most welcome if you have the inclination.
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#go-nuts
00:37 < iaefai> I am thinking of some ideas, something I would really like
is a package system that makes it easy to contribute things - something like cabal
for haskell, CPAN for perl, etc.
00:38 < Amaranth> danderson: Well, C++ has exceptions.  Assuming everything
you using throws them instead of giving an error code.
00:38 <+danderson> yes indeed.  Another thing that needs writing :)
00:38 < Amaranth> please no, not CPAN
00:38 < Amaranth> most of the crap on CPAN is, well, crap
00:38 < Ibw> > s := "hello"; for c := range s { fmt.Printf("%T ; %s", c,
c) }
00:38 < rndbot> int ; %s(int=0)int ; %s(int=1)int ; %s(int=2)int ;
%s(int=3)int ; %s(int=4)
00:38 < sladegen> iaefai: it's too early for now, base library is not even
set in stone and core language semantics may change, too.
00:38 < Ibw> > s := "hello"; for c := range s { fmt.Printf("%T ; %d", c,
c) }
00:38 < rndbot> int ; 0int ; 1int ; 2int ; 3int ; 4
00:39 < Ibw> > s := "hello"; for c := range s { fmt.Printf("%T , %d ; ",
c, c) }
00:39 < rndbot> int , 0 ; int , 1 ; int , 2 ; int , 3 ; int , 4 ;
00:39 < iaefai> sladegen: Anything like that can evolve with the language,
and might actually help with automatic testing of all submitted things
00:39 <+danderson> sladegen: doesn't hurt to get started, to have some
unified way of distributing 3rd party stuff.
00:39 <+danderson> and I agree that controlling SNR on such a repository is
a problem.  I'm tempted to just throw The Social at it and see what happens
00:40 -!- cpr420 [n=cpr@67.165.199.143] has joined #go-nuts
00:40 <+danderson> (ie.  let users provide feedback on package quality, let
the good stuff bubble up)
00:40 < iaefai> danderson: If something like that were to be developed, is
there a place that is possible to allow uploads for a central server to manage?
(something akin to hackage)
00:40 < Amaranth> > s := "hello"; for ch, i := range s { fmt.Printf("%T ,
%d:%s ; ", i, ch) }
00:40 < rndbot> int , 0:%s(missing) ; int , 1:%s(missing) ; int ,
2:%s(missing) ; int , 3:%s(missing) ; int , 4:%s(missing) ;
00:40 < Amaranth> hrm
00:40 < sladegen> danderson: sure, but perhaps first a way of installing go
and it's packages could be codified somehow better ;)
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00:40 < iaefai> sladegen: pkg file would be nice for the mac, and shouldn't
be hard to do
00:40 <+danderson> well, that's part of a cabal-like system
00:40 < Ibw> > s := "hello"; for _, c := range s { fmt.Printf("%T , %d ;
", c, c) }
00:40 < rndbot> int , 104 ; int , 101 ; int , 108 ; int , 108 ; int , 111 ;
00:40 < Amaranth> sladegen: Or made to be a little more sane...
00:41 < Ibw> ah
00:41 < Ibw> there we go
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00:41 < sladegen> iaefai: github or code.google...  anywayz.
00:41 <+danderson> it includes packaging, distribution, and the mechanics of
installing/managing local packages
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00:41 < Zeffrin> i must be the only person who hates exceptions...  where I
work the developrs don't spend enough time looking at the docs to see what
exceptions can be thrown by any function they're using so
00:42 < Ibw> > var str [5]int = {104, 101, 108, 108, 111};
fmt.Printf("%s", string(str));
00:42 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near int, empty top-level
declaration>
00:42 < iaefai> Zeffrin: Haskell does it nicely
00:42 < Amaranth> I think I'm going to have to join the mailing list...
00:42 < Zeffrin> our internal software is throwing unhandled exceptions
every day doing pretty much any task
00:42 <+danderson> iaefai: as a first step, I can contribute some server
space and CPU.  As a second step, I can possibly look into getting server space
here, although that would be slightly longer term
00:42 <+danderson> (here == google)
00:42 < Zeffrin> at least with errors i dunno, you dont get these unsual
error conditions
00:42 < Ibw> > var str [5]int; str[0] = 104; str[1] = 101; str[2] = 108
str[3] = 108; str[4] = 111; fmt.Printf("%s", string(str));
00:42 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near str>
00:43 < Amaranth> I'm going to have to see about making Go not depend on env
variables
00:43 < iaefai> danderson: If anything is done, I will converse with you.
It would be nice to bounce ideas.
00:43 <+danderson> iaefai: there's also Google Code, although I'd have to
consult with the other site admins to see if it's acceptable use of the service
00:43 < Ibw> Amaranth: The great thing about using Google Groups for the
mailing list is that you can "join" without having your email flooded with
messages
00:43 <+danderson> (since it would be hosting of mixed-license code, which
is normally against our ToS...  But I'm sure we can work something out for Go :)
00:45 < Ibw> > str := [...]int{104, 101, 108, 108, 111}; fmt.Printf("%s",
string(str));
00:45 < rndbot> <Error: cannot convert str (type [5]int) to type string
in conversion>
00:45 < Ibw> hrm
00:45 < Amaranth> only []byte can be converted like that
00:45 < Ibw> > str := [...]int{104, 101, 108, 108, 111}; fmt.Printf("%s",
string([]char(str)));
00:45 < rndbot> <Error: undefined: char>
00:45 < Ibw> > str := [...]int{104, 101, 108, 108, 111}; fmt.Printf("%s",
string(&str));
00:45 <+danderson> iaefai: oops, I take it back about parsers.  The stdlib
has an ebnf package
00:45 < rndbot> hello
00:45 < Ibw> thar
00:45 < Amaranth> or not...
00:45 < Ibw> very nice
00:46 < iaefai> danderson: lovely
00:46 < Amaranth> 493 files updated, 0 files merged, 1 files removed, 0
files unresolved
00:46 < Ibw> Amaranth: an int array slice can be converted, but not an
actual int array
00:46 < Amaranth> that's what I get for not updating for a couple days...
00:46 < Amaranth> arg, stupid hg
00:47 < sladegen> > str := [...]int{104, 101, 108, 108, 111};
fmt.Printf("%s", str.String());
00:47 < rndbot> <Error: str.String undefined (type [5]int has no field
String)>
00:47 < Amaranth> I'm running a terminal, use my PAGER for log...
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00:48 < iaefai> danderson: Before I run, does Go easily talk with C?
00:48 < XniX23> whats the command to update go again?  hg -u or smth
00:48 < Amaranth> XniX23: hg pull && hg update
00:48 < sladegen> hg pull -u
00:48 < Amaranth> or that
00:48 < Amaranth> iaefai: You can use cgo to wrap C libraries but you can't
go the other direction
00:48 <+danderson> iaefai: there is an FFI, although it's still incomplete
and underdocumented
00:48 < Ibw> sladegen: Did you really think that would work?
00:48 <+danderson> iirc, an example is in misc/cgo in the Go repository.
00:49 < Ibw> iaefai: And it's not easy.  cgo is a pain right now, but it
works
00:49 <+danderson> someone has already bound GTK to Go using it
00:49 < sladegen> Ibw: no, i was scratching my ass.
00:49 <+danderson> I think it may even be Ibw
00:49 < Ibw> danderson: I'm working on it.  I ran into a bug with cgo
though, so I have to wait for that to be resolved.  You can see all the libraries
that *have* been bound though at http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings
00:50 < Amaranth> nigeltao: I would think if you're going to expose any part
of the X client protocol you would just do XRender and the bits needed to use it
to draw into a window
00:50 < Amaranth> With that you can pretty much do everything you want
drawing related
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00:51 < Ibw> hum, now to fix that broken non-UTF8 compliant string
manipulation code...
00:51 < Ibw> @eval len("hello漢字")
00:51 < iaefai> It looks like something that can be worked with
00:51 < rndbot> 11
00:52 < Ibw> ergh
00:52 < Ibw> annoying
00:52 < Amaranth> that's not right?
00:52 < iaefai> I am more interested in a basic cocoa interface that can
work with opengl on a rather primitive level.
00:52 < Ibw> Amaranth: I was hoping it would return the number of characters
rather than the number of bytes
00:52 < Amaranth> ah
00:53 < Amaranth> @eval utf8.RuneCountInString("hello漢字")
00:53 < rndbot> <Error: undefined: utf8>
00:53 < Amaranth> hrm
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00:53 < Amaranth> Ibw: anyway, that's what you want
00:54 <+danderson> hehe, runes
00:54 < Ibw> Amaranth: ah, thank you
00:54 <+danderson> because codepoint is 5 characters too long
00:55 < Amaranth> > import utf8; fmt.Printf("%s",
utf8.RuneCountInString("hello漢字"));
00:55 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near import>
00:55 < Amaranth> bleh, silly bot :)
00:55 < XniX23> how can call global variables in a function?
00:55 < Amaranth> oh, silly me
00:55 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@212.198.164.142] has joined #go-nuts
00:55 < Amaranth> > import "utf8"; fmt.Printf("%s",
utf8.RuneCountInString("hello漢字"));
00:55 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near import>
00:55 < sladegen> > cap("ello")
00:55 < rndbot> <Error: invalid argument "ello" (type string) for cap>
00:55 < Amaranth> now silly bot
00:55 <+danderson> yeah, the expression you enter is encapsulated in main
00:55 <+danderson> where imports are disallowed
00:55 <+danderson> Gracenotes: could you add utf8 to the list of imported
packages?
00:57 < XniX23> anyone?
00:57 < Ibw> > s := "hello漢字"; for _, c := range s { fmt.Printf("%T , %d
; ", c, c) }
00:57 < rndbot> int , 104 ; int , 101 ; int , 108 ; int , 108 ; int , 111 ;
int , 28450 ; int , 23383 ;
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00:58 < sladegen> > a:=1; func() { print(a) }()
00:58 < rndbot> 1
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00:59 < XniX23> sladegen: was that an answer?  :p
00:59 < sladegen> yeah, just do it.
00:59 * sladegen zinks.
01:01 < sladegen> > package main ; a:=1 ; func main() { func(){ print(a)
}() }
01:01 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near package, syntax error near
main>
01:01 < sladegen> rndbot: help!
01:02 < sladegen> rndbot: i've segfaulted and i can't compile!
01:02 < XniX23> i have them in main, but i'd like to call them from another
func
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01:03 < sladegen> XniX23: and you tried running it through compiler and it
doesn't work?
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01:04 < XniX23> sladegen: yes
01:04 < Ibw> sladegen: rndbot just sticks all the code you write into a main
function, so that code won't work
01:05 < hnaz> rndbot: 1 + 1;
01:05 < drhodes> > 1+1
01:05 < rndbot> <Error: 2 not used, 2 not used>
01:06 < sladegen> Ibw: i know since danderson just said it but i recall
whole programs working in rndbot before.
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01:06 < Ibw> oh, ok
01:06 < Ibw> didn't see danderson's comment.  Sorry for the redundancy
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01:07 < Ibw> @eval 1+1
01:07 < rndbot> 2
01:08 < Ibw> >fmt.Printf("%d", 1+1);
01:08 < sladegen> XniX23: well...  dunno, declare them at the top, is the
only quick 'ack i can see.
01:08 < Ibw> > fmt.Printf("%d", 1+1);
01:08 < rndbot> 2
01:09 < XniX23> sladegen: thats bugging me, i cant coz i need to init
something in main before i can assign them :) anyway im trying to transfer array
as func param
01:09 < sladegen> XniX23: declare them only "var foo tbar"...
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01:10 < sladegen> you can assign them later in main.
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01:11 < Ibw> XniX23: Take a look at how initialization works:
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#initialization.  I think that should clear
up some questions
01:12 < Ibw> (I don't really know what your question is though, I wasn't
following chat)
01:13 < sladegen> XniX23: or construct your functions inside main with
anonymous code blocks...
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01:14 < XniX23> it worked with declaration on top and in main giving
value...  how could i have forgotten about that :\
01:14 < XniX23> thanks lbw ill definitely read that
01:14 < sladegen> http://gopaste.org/view/KI820
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01:16 < XniX23> nice trick
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reset by peer)]
01:17 < XniX23> finaly i got rid of that segfault..
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01:29 < Ibw> XniX23: What was causing the segfault?
01:29 < Ibw> was it too much memory?
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01:29 < spikebike> msg nickserv identify altivec
01:29 < spikebike> heh oops
01:30 < goplexian> goodevening
01:30 < Ibw> oopsies
01:30 < KirkMcDonald> Time for a new password!  Heh.
01:30 < Ibw> hey goplexian
01:30 < KirkMcDonald> (And this is why I always /msg nickserv from the
status window.)
01:31 < Ibw> I just open a private msg session with nickserv
01:31 < spikebike> indeed
01:31 < goplexian> hmm actually this seems to be a problem with empathy I
try /msg and it says unsupported command
01:32 < Ibw> hah, there's probably something else you can use
01:34 < goplexian> hmm
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01:38 < XniX23> lbw: i believe it was a binding when declaring a pointer
var...  so i just declared it once and used that memory location all over changing
the value
01:38 < nictuku> danderson: still awake?
01:41 < XniX23> im going to sleep
01:41 < XniX23> gn8 guys
01:41 < Ibw> bye
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01:44 <+danderson> nictuku: kinda
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02:24 < Gracenotes> danderson: sure, utf8 looks okay :)
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02:25 < Gracenotes> added to the 'modules' file, which the bot reads every
time a command is executed.  although I suppose I could do some last-modified
check..  no big performance hit :)
02:25 <+danderson> meh
02:25 <+danderson> do the check if profiling reveals a performance impact
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02:27 < Gracenotes> profiling for asynchronous things can be tricky...  may
as well cache in a list anyway
02:27 < Gracenotes> here is the current list of modules:
http://gopaste.org/view/fP3Ai
02:27 < Gracenotes> technically, anything that doesn't directly require
syscall should be fine.  or hooked up to some internal nasty stuff (like 'unsafe')
02:27 < Gracenotes> so any suggestions appreciated
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02:28 < Gracenotes> (io and os are imported because I removed most of the
syscall-bound calls there)
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03:11 < spikebike> Hrm, what can be send over channels?  Objects?  *objects?
03:12 < alexsuraci> anything
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03:28 < spikebike> cool
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03:32 < Gracenotes> > ch := make(chan interface{}); go func(){
fmt.Print(<-(<-ch).(chan interface{})); ch <- " done" }(); ch <- ch;
ch <- 10; fmt.Print(<-ch);
03:32 < rndbot> 10 done
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03:32 < Gracenotes> yes, chans can send themselves over themselves.  \o/
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03:40 <+danderson> Ibw: http://golang.org/doc/contribute.html#copyright
03:40 <+danderson> see last paragraph (yes, ICLA/CCLA required, depending on
your situation)
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03:41 <+danderson> the ICLA can be signed electronically, if your work is
not covered by your employer's copyright
03:41 < Ibw> ah, thanks for the link
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03:41 <+danderson> (http://code.google.com/legal/individual-cla-v1.0.html)
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03:54 < spikebike> hrm, somehow I lost track of the 3 go language PDFs
(day1, day2, and day3)
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03:57 < spikebike> ah, found em
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03:57 < tanamo> any ideas on how to call go functions from C? i know it's
not yet supported but maybe there's a workaround?
03:57 < anticw> cgo
03:58 < doublec> cgo doesn't allow calling go functions from C
03:58 < doublec> afaik
04:03 < spikebike> I was looking through the benchmarks at shootout
04:03 < spikebike> one of the java ones did impressively well so I looked at
it close
04:03 < spikebike> it was basically a java wrapper for libgmp
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04:04 < jordyd> Heh.  Java is really fast when you use C libraries.
04:06 < Rob_Russell> > func (a mytype) Foo() (a mytype) { return; }
04:06 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near Foo, syntax error near
return>
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04:07 < jessta> how long is a string?
04:07 < anticw> 32cm
04:07 < Rob_Russell> Seems like func (a mytype) Foo() (a) { return; } should
be valid but it doesn't compile (even when you do define the types)
04:07 < jessta> anticw: how would I get that?
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04:08 < Ibw> jessta: Do you realize that he was joking?
04:08 < anticw> jessta: it's was a joke; please rephrase the question
04:09 < anticw> len(s) is probably what you want
04:09 < Rob_Russell> jessta: string s has length len(s)
04:09 < anticw> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html ...  search for "string
len"
04:09 < wcr> You guys really should have played this out longer...  "a tape
measurer" would have sufficed.
04:09 < Ibw> Unless you want to know the number of characters in the string,
then use utf8.RunesInString(str)
04:09 < Ibw> heh
04:09 < Rob_Russell> Ibw: i keep forgetting that one
04:09 < jordyd> wcr: I completely agree.
04:09 < Ibw> wcr: That would have been quite entertaining.  I suspect jessta
may have responded with: where do I get one of thsoe
04:10 < wcr> It is not often that someone misses sarcasm which is that
obvious :D
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04:10 < Ibw> Rob_Russell: ya, that really bit me yesterday.  I submitted
some string manipulation code for review and realized the next morning that all of
my code was uselles with any string using UTF8 characters more than one byte
04:11 < jessta> Ibw: yeah, that's what I was looking for
04:11 < Ibw> jessta: Cool, glad I could help.
04:11 < Ibw> jessta: What are you doing exactly?  There are some caveats of
working with strings in Go that you need to worry about
04:12 < Ibw> If you're doing anything character by character, you need to
understand how strings are stored
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04:13 < Ibw> (or at least how to get them "unstored" so that you can work
with them(
04:13 < Ibw> )
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04:14 < anticw> Rob_Russell: you using a twice for Foo
04:15 < Rob_Russell> anticw: yeah, that's what i mean
04:15 < Rob_Russell> anticw: basically saying the function just returns the
thing itself
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04:49 < zhurai> does go have any _native_ (?) way to make gui's
04:49 < zhurai> or do we have to wait for gtk/qt/wx/etc to make bindings for
go
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04:53 < uriel> zhurai: kind of , there is exp/draw/
04:53 < zhurai> ah o-o
04:53 < uriel> but that is probably much more low level than what you want
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05:04 < Amaranth> no event handling there though
05:04 < jordyd> zhurai: And exp/draw/ is...  expreimental, I think is the
word they used.
05:04 < Amaranth> You're probably just going to have to wait for gtk
bindings
05:04 < jordyd> experimental*
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05:05 < Amaranth> The Xorg developers wouldn't be happy to hear about
someone making a whole new toolkit
05:05 < spikebike> what do they care?
05:05 < Amaranth> their channel topic actually says "don't write a new
window manager or toolkit.  seriously."
05:05 < spikebike> heh
05:05 < spikebike> seems shortsited
05:05 < jordyd> But...  what /do/ they care?
05:06 < Amaranth> well compiz is the ultimate window manager construction
kit
05:06 < spikebike> competition is good, sure I was happy with fvwm years ago
05:06 < spikebike> yeah I'm quite fond of compiz these days
05:06 < Amaranth> jordyd: because they get questions about it and people
used to blame gtk bugs on X
05:06 < Amaranth> spikebike: I'm glad to hear that :)
05:06 < snake_> when it works.  Because not everybody have good 3d support
05:06 < spikebike> now that gnome and gtk can draw straight to a frame
buffer I can see the x.org folks getting touchy
05:07 < spikebike> but to be honest many things don't work over X anyways,
seems like few notice
05:07 < Amaranth> spikebike: what distro?
05:07 < spikebike> what distro what?
05:07 < jordyd> But doesn't X.org pretty much take care of detecting
displays?  Why would you want to lose that?
05:07 < Amaranth> spikebike: what distro do you use?
05:07 < spikebike> ubuntu
05:07 < Amaranth> spikebike: awesome, you're using my version of compiz then
:)
05:08 < spikebike> cool
05:08 * zhurai is in arch + tiled wm >.>
05:08 < jordyd> Amaranth: Depends on whether he's using the same version of
Ubuntu.
05:08 < spikebike> I have very very simple things that I expect of a window
manager and SO MANY get it wrong
05:08 < spikebike> moving mouse/windows/etc should be the same within a
display as across a display
05:09 < Amaranth> jordyd: Every version of Ubuntu with compiz in it is my
version ;)
05:09 < jordyd> Amaranth: Oh, heh, you read nothing, then.
05:09 < spikebike> none of this click on the tiny minature desktop, no
special key mappings...  if I can move windows/mouse/cut/paste within a desktop
that's all I should need to know
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05:10 < jordyd> I like tiling window managers...  but I never use them.  :D
05:10 < Whtiger> http://pastebin.com/d604bcca4 what's going on?
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05:11 < Amaranth> Whtiger: We'd have to see the code
05:12 < jordyd> Amaranth: It's at the bottom.
05:12 < Amaranth> arg
05:12 * Amaranth is tired
05:12 < nictuku> just installed Go in a Linux system, and gotest is
segfaulting.  Works fine on my mac.
05:13 < Whtiger> The net test on the install failed too.
05:14 < Whtiger> googledial or whatever
05:14 < jordyd> Whtiger: Try actually getting the error from net.Dial and
print it.
05:14 < jordyd> So you can see if there is an error.
05:15 < uriel> Whtiger: ignore that
05:15 < Whtiger> jordyd: doesn't print anything, just the sigsegv
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05:15 < uriel> Whtiger: it is a known issue with some firewalls/whatever
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05:16 < Whtiger> uriel: how so
05:18 < Whtiger> I can't find anything in bug tracker
05:20 < nictuku> anybody willing to take an initial look at this changelist?
thanks.  http://codereview.appspot.com/157168/show
05:21 < Whtiger> uriel: any idea how to fix it even temporarily?
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05:29 < Ibw> nictuku: There are very few if any Go devs on this channel
05:29 < uriel> Whtiger: just ignore it
05:29 < Whtiger> uriel: just ignore what?
05:29 < Makavel> Hi...  does anyone know if there are list of go examples
out there?
05:29 < Whtiger> My code is exploding
05:30 < nictuku> Ibw: I see, thanks.  Luckily I have other means of finding
them :-)
05:30 < Ibw> nictuku: Did you make an entire new package?
05:30 < nictuku> yes
05:30 < Ibw> cooleo
05:31 < Ibw> You should add people to your "Reviewers" list
05:31 < uriel> Whtiger: the error:
http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=20
05:31 < Ibw> as of now, no one is getting notified to look at the code
05:31 < uriel> Makavel: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/go-code
05:31 < Makavel> uriel: Thanks
05:31 < Whtiger> uriel: I don't think that's the same error
05:31 < nictuku> Ibw: right, but who?
05:32 < uriel> Whtiger: well, then fill a bug
05:32 < Ibw> nictuku: I've got no idea how you're supposed to find people,
but r and rsc are safe bets I think
05:32 < Ibw> They are the ones listed in the examples so...
05:32 < Ibw> They are also two people from the code dev team
05:32 < Ibw> Rob and Russ I think
05:33 < uriel> Whtiger: but I still think it is the same issue
05:33 < Ibw> (P.S.  to everyone: paste your code on gopaste.org.  It's so
much cooler that way)
05:33 < uriel> Ibw: who to add to your reviewers list is supposedly in the
contribution instructions
05:33 < Whtiger> uriel: how?  It's crashing violently
05:34 < uriel> Whtiger: how what?
05:34 < Ibw> uriel: Yup, I know very much how to add reviewers.  What isn't
specified in the list is how to decide which reviewers to add.  Whatever though,
I've just been sending my code to r and rsc
05:34 < Ibw> *specified in the instructions
05:34 < uriel> Ibw: I thought that was fixed yesterday
05:34 < Whtiger> uriel: how is it the same issue?  it's not like I can just
ignore a crash.
05:34 < Ibw> lemme check
05:35 < Ibw> uriel: I don't see it.  If you can prove me wrong, though, I
would be greatful
05:37 < uriel> Ibw:
http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=5da00b238fa52906e7c8415934a3ab1a2758bd79
05:37 < uriel> seems that the update has not made it to the public site yet
05:38 < Ibw> Nope, thanks for that link though.
05:39 < Whtiger> grarg, nevermind!  uriel, you're right.
05:39 < uriel> well, good that at least I'm not wrong all the time then :)
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05:42 < Whtiger> no wait, I don't think this is the same bug, I don't know
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05:44 < Whtiger> it's something with DNS
05:44 < Whtiger> if I do IP then it works all the time
05:44 < Ibw> Do you think there would be any use for a tar package?
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05:45 < nictuku> uriel: thanks for the link
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05:50 < Makavel> Hi...  how can i convert int to string in Go
05:50 < nictuku> Makavel: strconv.itoa()
05:51 < Gracenotes> i -> I
05:54 < Makavel> nictuku: thanks but I found out that strconv.itoa() should
be strconv.Itoa()
05:55 < nictuku> that's probably what Gracenotes tried to say above :-)
05:56 < Gracenotes> yes, I can only speak in one-letter words and
punctuation :(
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05:56 < Makavel> thanks guys
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05:57 < Zeffrin> i'd think wouldnt be long before someone found tar package
useful
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05:57 < Gracenotes> oh, someone has?
05:58 < Zeffrin> Ibw was asking if there'd be any use for one, just sayin'..
:)
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05:58 < Gracenotes> there's no bzip2 support yet.  because, honestly, bzip2
is *complicated* >_>
05:59 < Ibw> Zeffrin: woah, there's not, you're right.  That would be a fun
project
05:59 < Gracenotes> even the most impassioned code golfer might not be able
to get it under 5KB of code.  well, 2-3KB at most
06:00 < Gracenotes> nor would one want to
06:01 < Ibw> I think it would be very useful though, and appears to be quite
a large gap in the standard library
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06:05 < Gracenotes> > zout, _ := zlib.NewDeflater(os.Stdout);
io.WriteString(zout, "hello world")
06:05 < rndbot> xœ
06:06 < Gracenotes> -_-
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route to host]
06:06 < Gracenotes> there's no string writer yet
06:07 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@24.30.132.50] has quit []
06:07 < Gracenotes> what might be called a string builder
06:10 < Ibw> does an io.Reader not need to be passed by reference to get the
same data?
06:11 < alc> > for i := 0; i < 10; i++ { func (x int) {println(x)}(i)
}
06:11 < rndbot> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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06:12 < Ibw> function to get an io.Reader for a file?
06:14 < Ibw> ah, it appears that the tutorial sample code does that.
06:14 < Ibw> hmm
06:14 < spikebike> btw, not sure exactly who was around during the channel +
goroutine discussion
06:14 < Ibw> that's really stupid.  Is there any reason that the tutorial
file io code isn't in the standard packages yet?
06:14 < spikebike> But I applied the result to the shootout for the
mandelbrot set
06:15 < spikebike> turns out for 16k x 16k image using a goroutine per line
was 3x slower than a goroutine per CPU
06:15 < antarus> are you that surprised?  :)
06:16 < spikebike> nope, just nice to have an actual data point
06:16 < Ibw> Anyone know?  Is there code to get an io.Reader for a file
that's in the standard packages?
06:16 < spikebike> 16000 pixels is a fair bit of work, but apparently so is
creating a goroutine
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06:16 < antarus> doing Thread per X, or fork per X, or go-routine per X is
likely always more expensive than some kind of pool
06:17 < antarus> (when X is large and relatively short lived anyway ;p)
06:17 < spikebike> the competition switched to a goroutine per 100 lines of
16k and almost matched my performance
06:18 < nictuku> spikebike: how many CPUs?  I'm surprised it was only 3
times slower for 16k goroutines
06:18 < spikebike> 4
06:18 < spikebike> well actually it was 87 seconds
06:18 < spikebike> my entry was 29 seconds
06:18 < Gracenotes> shootout tends to be heavily CPU-bound
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06:18 < spikebike> then some polishing got mine down to 19
06:19 < Gracenotes> Haskell, for instance, tends to target the 4-CPU
entries, so its performance is not so great on less
06:19 < spikebike> I was all proud to go from 87 -> 27, turns out the
good competitors were on the ubuntu 64 bit box
06:19 < Zeffrin> good to know, i'd been thinking last night for image
processing it'd be interesting to do a goroutine per line and let the processors
eat it up as many at a time as possible but obviously this is not the way
06:19 < spikebike> so instead of 3x the best I'm around 5-10% 8-(
06:19 < Gracenotes> if we can get four goroutines going at the same time,
the runtime system doesn't have to worry about context switching so much.  at
least, I hope
06:19 < spikebike> yeah
06:20 < spikebike> it's really main + 4, but main doesn't have to do much
06:20 < Ibw> os pkg has file io
06:20 < Gracenotes> yeah.  io doesn't actually do anything by itself
06:20 < spikebike> I assume something going between 2 goroutines via a
channel doesn't req1uire a context switch
06:21 < Gracenotes> io has utility functions, really.  plus defines the
interfaces that are used elsewhere
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06:21 < Gracenotes> os is the interface to syscall.  (which itself is an
interface to os-specific stuff)
06:21 < Gracenotes> lower-level-os-specific
06:24 < Gracenotes> just don't get too hacky for the shootout -- only as
much as most other PLs
06:25 < JBeshir> Sounds like that's pretty hacky.  :P
06:26 < Gracenotes> grr...  I wish I had my notes with me about my STG
simulator layout..
06:26 * Gracenotes tries to draw from memory
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06:35 < Ibw> wow, the tar format is actually quite easy
06:35 < Ibw> all of the headers are in ascii format, and the files
themselves are completely unchanged.  Plus, everything is padded to nice round
numbers
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06:38 < spikebike> yeah
06:38 < spikebike> it's easy and straightforward
06:38 < spikebike> some drawbacks as a format, but easy to read/write
06:39 < Zeffrin> added 117 changesets with 579 changes to 438 files
06:39 < Zeffrin> 422 files updated, 0 files merged, 1 files removed, 0 files
unresolved
06:39 < Zeffrin> wow, since yesterday morning or the day before not sure but
wow
06:42 < Ibw> Anything in standard packages for converting to/from octals?
06:42 < Ibw> doesn't look like it
06:42 * Ibw sighs
06:43 < Ibw> Actually, it's kind of exciting.  Another thing that can be
commited
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06:45 < nictuku> Ibw: I see a few Int-to-Octal functions in fmt/format.go
06:46 < Ibw> what's that cool short word that stands for the number system
that a number uses?  like, 10 (decimal), 8(octal), 2(binary)
06:46 < Ibw> nictuku: Awesome, thanks
06:46 < KirkMcDonald> Ibw: There is stuff in the strconv package for both to
and from arbitrary bases.
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06:52 < Ibw> KirkMcDonald: I'm not finding anything other than Itob, which
doesn't really help going from something else into decimal
06:53 < Ibw> nvm
06:54 < Ibw> @eval int(strconv.Btoi64("64", 8)
06:54 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near 8>
06:54 < Ibw> @eval int(strconv.Btoi64("64", 8))
06:54 < rndbot> <Error: multiple-value strconv.Btoi64() in single-value
context>
06:55 < Ibw> > i, error := int(strconv.Btoi64("64", 8)); fmt.Printf("%v",
i)
06:55 < rndbot> <Error: multiple-value strconv.Btoi64() in single-value
context>
06:55 < Ibw> > i, error := strconv.Btoi64("64", 8); fmt.Printf("%v", i)
06:55 < rndbot> 52
06:55 < Gracenotes> hm
06:55 < Ibw> perfect
06:55 < Ibw> (you should still get those multiple returns working in @eval
though
06:56 < Gracenotes> yeah, still working on that.  trickier than it seems,
other than actually scanning the compiler error messages
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06:56 < Gracenotes> unless the reflect package can give me that information
06:57 < Gracenotes> but all I have is the string containing the code
06:57 < Gracenotes> > x := func(x string) (int, string) { return len(x),
x }; fmt.Printf("%T", x)
06:57 < rndbot> func(string) (int, string)
06:57 < Gracenotes> hm.  still, don't have runtime access to that :)
06:58 < Gracenotes> > fmt.Printf("%T", strconv.Btoi64("64", 8))
06:58 < rndbot> <Error: multiple-value strconv.Btoi64() in single-value
context>
06:59 < Ibw> What is the os.Error value for no error?
06:59 < Gracenotes> nil, probably
07:00 < nictuku> nil ?
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07:00 < Ibw> alrighty then
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07:25 < Zeffrin> ls
07:27 < Ibw> What's the best way to include my own packages in a build?
07:27 < Zeffrin> so sad, the concurrent prime sieve example is boggling my
mind
07:27 < Ibw> import "./mypackage" or is there something on the command line
I can do when building?
07:29 < jessta> Ibw: it's -I
07:29 < Ibw> capital I?
07:29 < Ibw> doesn't seem to be working
07:30 < Ibw> I just have to compile the package to mypackage.8, right?
07:32 < spikebike> heh/ me reads about go's built in tar support
07:32 < Ibw> ...
07:32 < Ibw> really?
07:33 < Ibw> spikebike: Are you saying that there *is* built in tar support?
07:33 < Zeffrin> oh heh, pkg archive/tar
07:33 < Zeffrin> funny, didnt see him there right at the top of the list hey
07:34 < spikebike> heh
07:34 < Ibw> ...
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07:38 < idm> hmm...  what's wrong with this statement "a :=
os.Getenv("GOBIN") || "/some/custom/path";"
07:39 < emilh_> if it were in C a would be assign to 1?
07:40 < Zeffrin> guessing here but os.Getenv() returns a value...  it may be
an empty string but its a value
07:40 < idm> its not even compilable.  compiler says its an invalid
operation
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07:41 < idm> I read the lang spec, it seems like this is supported
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07:45 < Zeffrin> yeah true C would assign 1...  i know Ive seen that syntax
before somewhere though
07:46 < Zeffrin> well not the := but you know what i mean
07:46 < KirkMcDonald> idm: I suspect that || demands boolean operands.
07:47 < Zeffrin> @eval "bla" || "bleh"
07:47 < rndbot> <Error: invalid operation: "bla" || "bleh" (type string
|| string)>
07:47 < KirkMcDonald> "Logical operators apply to boolean values and yield a
result of the same type as the operands."
07:48 < idm> ok make sense
07:48 < idm> though the spec sounds confusing
07:48 < KirkMcDonald> idm: Where?
07:48 < idm> xpression = UnaryExpr | Expression binary_op UnaryExpr
07:48 < idm> binary_op = log_op | com_op | rel_op | add_op | mul_op .
07:49 < KirkMcDonald> The grammar defines what is syntactically correct, and
types don't exist until well after the syntax tree has been created.
07:50 < KirkMcDonald> That is, "1 || 2" is technically syntactically
correct, but it is still an error.
07:51 < idm> sounds like I need a true/false table for what's true and
what's false.  Seems like non-nil values do not automatically evaluated as true
07:52 < KirkMcDonald> The expression in an if statement (or any other
context which expects a conditional) *must* be a boolean.
07:53 < KirkMcDonald> Go doesn't do what C does, of permitting 0 to be false
and other values to be true, or permitting a null pointer as being false, etc.
07:53 < idm> ok
07:53 < idm> I see..
07:53 < Gracenotes> > stmts, e := parser.ParseStmtList("", `a :=
os.Getenv("GOBIN") || "/some/custom/path";`); fmt.Print(e)
07:53 < rndbot> <nil>
07:53 < KirkMcDonald> "if err {}" is invalid, you have to explicitly say "if
err != nil {}".
07:54 < Zeffrin> > if a := os.Getenv("GOBIN"); a == "" { a = "/other" }
fmt.Print(a);
07:54 < rndbot> <Error: undefined: a>
07:54 < Gracenotes> the problem with zero values, e.g.  in JavaScript, is
that there is always a conundrum that they are still valid values for a given type
07:55 < spikebike> anyone written a google wave bot in go yet?
07:55 < spikebike> anyone need an invite to try?
07:55 < KirkMcDonald> Gracenotes: In some contexts this is the desired
behavior.
07:55 < Gracenotes> best to keep things explicit
07:55 < Gracenotes> some cases, but, see ^^
07:55 < spikebike> somethings been bugging me
07:55 < spikebike> anyone have thoughts on using int vs int32 vs in64?
07:56 < spikebike> (or similar for floats)?
07:56 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: Depends on the context.
07:56 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: "int" is the most suitable type to use as
e.g.  an array index.
07:56 < Gracenotes> I just use int.  keep it simple.  and, well,
architecture-dependent
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07:56 < spikebike> KirkMcDonald: on a 64 bit machine is a "int" 32 or 64?
07:57 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: 64
07:57 < spikebike> or is that dependent on the implementation?
07:57 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: If you're representing an IPv4 address, for
instance, a uint32 might be suitable (since it is explicitly a 32-bit value).
07:57 < spikebike> is that decided at runtime or compile?
07:57 < KirkMcDonald> Compile-time.
07:57 < spikebike> do in64's work on 32 bit machines?  Just more slowly?
07:58 < spikebike> int
07:58 < Zeffrin> so when I have if a:= "bla" { } does a only exist within
the scope of the if block?
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike:
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Numeric_types
07:58 < Zeffrin> or not even or?
07:58 < Gracenotes> they're called "longs" in some other programming
languages
07:58 < spikebike> long on ia32 = 32 bit
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> Zeffrin: Only within the scope of the if block, yes.
07:58 < Gracenotes> Zeffrin: yes.  same with other programming languages and
for declarations
07:58 < Zeffrin> kk cool, thanks
07:58 < spikebike> long long = 64 bit ;-)
07:58 < Gracenotes> long long here is 128
07:59 < spikebike> so if distributing source using int's gives you the best
of both worlds
07:59 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: An int64 will still be 64-bits, and will
still work, when building for a 32-bit target.
07:59 < alc> > if a:="bla"; {} print(a)
07:59 < rndbot> <Error: undefined: a>
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07:59 < Zeffrin> something about the syntax is still muddling up my brains
07:59 < Gracenotes> actually, not according to most compilers, it seems
07:59 < spikebike> compatibility, and better speed/handle larger numbers on
64 bit
07:59 * Zeffrin apparently not adapt well
07:59 < spikebike> but if distributing binaries you likely either need 2
versions or stick with a 32 bit version
07:59 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: "int" is generally correct, sure.
08:00 < General1337> > a := "bla"; if a == "bla" { print(a) }
08:00 < rndbot> bla
08:00 < General1337> alc ^
08:00 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: A binary built for a 64-bit target won't
work on a 32-bit target in any event.
08:00 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: And vice-versa.
08:00 < Gracenotes> the point of making a declaration in an if statement is
to limit the scope
08:00 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: For starters, the pointers will be
different sizes.  And so on.
08:01 < idm> so looks like in the if statm, te temp var ends its life when
the block ends.
08:01 < spikebike> $ ./a.out
08:01 < spikebike> long 4 int 4 long int 4 long long 8
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08:01 < spikebike> thats on an IA32
08:02 < Gracenotes> C has this nasty bit of specified-to-be-unspecified
there
08:02 < spikebike> $ ./a.out
08:02 < spikebike> long 8 int 4 long int 8 long long 8
08:02 < spikebike> thats x86-64
08:02 < spikebike> (gcc-4.4)
08:02 < KirkMcDonald> spikebike: And the 64-bit case will give different
values on Windows, too.
08:02 < spikebike> amusing
08:02 < General1337> who owns rndbot ?
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08:03 < Gracenotes> *wave* I run it and wrote it
08:03 < Gracenotes> it's on 32-bit machine, though lm-capable..
08:03 < General1337> > import("http") http.Get("www.google.com \r\n");
08:03 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near import>
08:03 < General1337> oo
08:04 < Gracenotes> it puts code in a main method.  or, for @eval, in a
print statement
08:04 < General1337> cool
08:04 < General1337> do you have the source somewhere like github or are u
keeping it top secret?
08:04 < KirkMcDonald> Gracenotes: It should have three modes: expression,
statement, and file.
08:05 < KirkMcDonald> (Or expression, statement, and declaration, if you
like.)
08:05 < Gracenotes> has the format two.  file is on the way, although the
only thing you're missing is method declarations.  that's all.  (and imports, but
I automatically import certain modules anyway)
08:05 < Gracenotes> *former
08:06 < KirkMcDonald> I am disappointed by the gc make stuff's support for
third-party packages.
08:06 < KirkMcDonald> The only way to automatically have it find new
packages is to cram them in alongside the standard library, or hack things up in
other ways.
08:06 < Gracenotes> General1337: here is the compiling part..  the
functionality, essentially.  http://gopaste.org/view/C8l0w
08:07 < Gracenotes> planning to get it on Google Code, at the suggestion
of..  someone
08:07 < KirkMcDonald> A more expansive package search path would be nice,
along with some sort of environment variable for specifying more.
08:08 < General1337> wow Gracenotes, looks like you put a lot of time in
this
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08:09 < KirkMcDonald> Heck, even adding a $(GOFLAGS) thing to Make.pkg would
do basically everything I want...
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08:09 < Gracenotes> I learned a fair amount of Go along the way :)
08:09 < reppie> :)
08:11 < idm> > if p := new([]string); {} println(p)
08:11 < rndbot> <Error: undefined: p>
08:11 < General1337> how does that work
08:11 < idm> even pointer is scoped
08:12 < idm> somehow the runtime knows how to clean that up...
08:12 < Gracenotes> it defines scoping rules in the specification
08:13 < General1337> > import("http"); http.Get("www.google.com \r\n");
08:13 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near import>
08:14 < KirkMcDonald> idm: It is not a runtime operation.
08:14 < KirkMcDonald> idm: Variable scopes are inherent in the grammar.
08:14 < KirkMcDonald> (That is, Go is lexically scoped.)
08:14 < idm> the object should have been allocated, no?
08:15 < jessta> > http.Get("http://www.google.com \r\n");
08:15 < rndbot> <Error: undefined: http>
08:15 < KirkMcDonald> idm: This is basically orthogonal to the scope of the
variable.
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08:16 < idm> right, but when the code execed, a object will be allocated in
heap, and the runtime has to know how to clean that up
08:17 < KirkMcDonald> idm: The GC will collect it at some point after there
cease to be references to it.
08:18 < idm> so you saying the compiler removes the pointer when the block
ends?
08:19 < KirkMcDonald> idm: The variable ceases to exist when the block ends.
08:19 < KirkMcDonald> (It is popped off the stack.)
08:19 < JBeshir> idm: Scope and extant are different things.
08:20 < JBeshir> While the variable's data is GCed at some arbitrary point,
the variable's name ceases to be in scope and recognised the moment the block it
was declared in ends.
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08:21 < Gracenotes> currently 8g and ilk use mark-and-sweep, I think, the
faq says
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08:21 < idm> ok I see.  with the GC a runtime behavior and variable removal
a compile time
08:22 < KirkMcDonald> idm: That is, the memory to which the variable refers
ceases to be something the GC considers as a possible location for a reference to
GC-controlled memory after the variable's scope ends.
08:22 < KirkMcDonald> ...  if that made any sense.
08:22 * KirkMcDonald fears it did not.
08:23 < idm> I think it does..  :)
08:24 < idm> I had expression since in C, we already have to call free to
get rid of the pointer and its not the case in Go because of the GC
08:24 < KirkMcDonald> Oh, yes, you don't have to worry about freeing your
pointers in Go.
08:24 < JBeshir> But if you forgot to delete, the pointer still disappeared
at the end of the block.  :P
08:25 < idm> the scope is the same, the variable is gone, but since Go has
GC, we don't have to free anymore where in C, we need to
08:25 < JBeshir> Scope worked the same, yeah.
08:26 < Gracenotes> the problem is that, for concurrent garbage collection,
scope isn't enough: something in a separate goroutine may be in another call
stack, let alone another scope
08:26 < Gracenotes> the sort of "unsweeping" you do by exiting a function
and manually freeing your garbage..  not so clear-cut
08:27 < Gracenotes> so Go is reducing overhead, in that sense -- something
you don't often see as a plus for garbage collection :)
08:27 < Gracenotes> (well, hopefully GC will get more efficient in future
versions)
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08:30 < idm> so does the GC work the same way as what Java or python do?
What's the problem currently it has though?
08:30 < uriel> idm: the current GC is a toy, a completely new concurrent GC
is in the works
08:30 < KirkMcDonald> The Python GC is primarily implemented using reference
counting.
08:30 < idm> or is there a way say "sorry, turn it off and I will manage my
memory myself"?
08:31 < KirkMcDonald> Which is, uh, sub-optimal when it comes to
concurrency.
08:31 < Gracenotes> there's not a way to do it so that your code doesn't
look like came out of a...  uh...  thing that produces really ugly things
08:32 < uriel> just have a bit of patience folks!  ;)
08:32 < idm> guess so..
08:32 * Gracenotes is talking about manual memory management
08:33 < Gracenotes> so perhaps they will invent a new compiler approach?
bring on the research papers :?
08:33 < Gracenotes> s/compiler/GC/
08:33 < idm> its trade off..  guess if performance hurts, then something has
to be done.  after all, Go targets on critical system lang.
08:33 < uriel> Gracenotes: I think the plan is to used something based on
IBM's 'recycle' work, no clue about the details
08:34 < Gracenotes> uriel: recycle?  is that sort of generational?
08:34 < sladegen> http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers.html
08:35 < sladegen> this
http://www.research.ibm.com/people/d/dfb/papers/Bacon01Concurrent.pdf to be
precise...
08:35 < sladegen> oooold technology :/
08:36 < Gracenotes> hm.  Java ones are more optimized towards not-too-rapid
heap allocation
08:36 < reppie> nothing is new
08:38 < Gracenotes> and I don't think many JVMs consider languages with the
JVM as a specific target.  only Java.
08:43 < sladegen> what?  there is ruby, python and scheme on jvm at least...
iirc.  and i'm sure some Ph.D.  though of compiling php to java, too.
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08:46 < Gracenotes> sladegen: JVMs are written for Java
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08:46 < Gracenotes> I don't know of any written for Java *and* other
languages which might more efficiently run under other GC schemes, or dispatch
schemes, or whathaveyou
08:47 < Gracenotes> one thing to consider when porting a language to it
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09:07 * uriel adds more libs to go-lang.cat-v.org ...
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09:11 < exch> moar!  :O
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09:26 < peter-k> any nuts here?
09:26 < peter-k> 8-)
09:27 < jessta> yes
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09:27 < Gracenotes> the channel sponsor is Planters
09:30 < peter-k> how are you jessta
09:30 < jessta> caffinated
09:30 < jessta> I was thinking about having curry for dinner, but I think I
might have eggs
09:31 < peter-k> eggs good
09:32 < peter-k> what are you gonna do fried eggs
09:32 < jessta> boiled eggs
09:32 < jessta> too lazy to fry them
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09:32 < jessta> the chickens in my backyard keep making eggs so someone has
to eat them
09:33 < peter-k> people is only need one egg per day more is harmful
09:33 < jessta> I
09:33 < jessta> I'm pretty sure that's not true
09:33 < peter-k> you have a backyard ,great.
09:33 < peter-k> where are you ?
09:34 < peter-k> i just read from some book
09:34 < peter-k> maybe it's not true
09:34 < jessta> it's old information
09:34 < jessta> I'm in melborne,australia
09:35 < peter-k> i heard of that
09:35 < peter-k> nice place
09:35 < jessta> indeed
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09:35 < peter-k> the room is full of people
09:36 < peter-k> but few people taiks
09:36 < peter-k> talks
09:38 < jessta> peter-k: do you go?
09:40 < peter-k> i am back now
09:40 < peter-k> hi
09:41 < peter-k> my father was back .
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09:43 < peter-k> are you cooking your eggs?
09:43 < peter-k> i want to eat
09:43 < jessta> peter-k: do you code in go?
09:43 < peter-k> ;)
09:43 < peter-k> what is code in go ? jessta
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09:44 < peter-k> i am not gonna leaving
09:44 < jessta> ah, I see.  You just randomly came here?
09:44 < Peter-> Sometimes IRC really makes me loose faith in humanity
09:45 < peter-k> yes jessta
09:45 < jessta> Peter-: you should try going outside, it's far worse
09:45 < peter-k> i found the room is interesting
09:45 < TenOfTen> peter-k: read topic
09:46 < Peter-> jessta: I'm in Amsterdam most of the time, have to admit
there's lots of weird things around
09:46 < peter-k> i don't get TenOfTen
09:46 < TenOfTen> peter-k: this channel is about http://golang.org
09:47 < peter-k> it's a room for computer tech?
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09:48 < TenOfTen> peter-k: channel* but yes
09:49 < peter-k> then the only thing talked is computer ?
09:49 < peter-k> stuff
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09:50 < peter-k> huh?
09:50 < peter-k> help me jessta
09:50 < peter-k> what is room exactly for ?
09:50 < Fatal_> normally to put furniture in
09:50 < peter-k> only computer stuff?
09:51 < Fatal_> most people would have their computer in a dedicated
computer room, some keep them in the living room and some in the bed room
09:51 < Fatal_> where you put yours is entirely up to you and your family
09:51 < Ibw> peter-k: golang.org
09:51 < peter-k> :o
09:51 < Ibw> ah
09:51 < Ibw> someone already linked
09:52 < TenOfTen> /nick someone
09:52 < Ibw> heh
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09:52 < Fatal_> Ibw: ITYM everyone already linked :)
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10:37 < anticw> damnit, im seriously mentally defective right now
10:37 < anticw> the hg change/submit process is confusing the crap out of me
if i change my email address
10:38 < exDM69> anticw: what has your e-mail address got to do with it?
10:38 < exDM69> you set your credentials in the hg user prefs
10:38 < exDM69> and use your repository username/password when pushing
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10:39 < anticw> .hgrc having my preferred email addy wants me in
CONTRIBUTORS ...  which seems silly for tiny whitespace stuff
10:39 < anticw> w/o that it does everything from my gmail account which i
never use
10:40 < anticw> the last time i did this it was fine, not sure why im
retarded right now
10:40 < anticw> i ended up sending 2-3 broken things to review which i
closed/killed and realized it spammed the list
10:42 < anticw> hmm...  now i have something there, and it's not clear what
i did this time
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11:13 < p4p4> hi folks, yesterday someone was talking about an sdl-package,
can't find it...
11:14 < knave_> http://github.com/banthar/Go-SDL
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11:22 < TenOfTen> is that banthar guy here?
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11:27 < p4p4_> TenOfTen: ahh, i just found it.  thanks anyway.
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11:58 < uriel> p4p4_: if you are looking for bindings, always check
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings
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11:59 < p4p4_> uriel: nice link!  thanks
12:00 < uriel> no problem
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12:03 < TenOfTen> good one
12:03 < TenOfTen> too bad it's so short :) but im expecting it to grow
12:05 < uriel> what is short?
12:05 < TenOfTen> heh, the list of libs
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12:06 < TenOfTen> i have a long wish list
12:06 < uriel> are you serious?  its been barely two weeks!  its been more
than one lib per day!
12:06 < TenOfTen> sorry, i didnt know
12:06 < uriel> and it is not like the libs included with Go are not qiute
considerable on their own either..
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12:13 < nickjohnson> uriel: So I think I know how to do Go's interfaces in
.NET, with one exception
12:13 < nickjohnson> How do you handle the case when you have a library A,
which has an interface X, a library B, which doesn't, and a library C, which
attempts to pass something from B to A?
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12:13 < nickjohnson> Eg, when library B was compiled, it didn't know about
A's interface, even though a class in it (implicitly) implements it
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12:15 < uriel> nickjohnson: hah!  awesome!
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12:16 < nickjohnson> The only way I can think around it is having the
library C construct a wrapper for B's class, which implements the interface - but
that destroys object identity
12:16 < uriel> nickjohnson: I'm not sure I understand the question (my
fault), but I think interfaces are only checked at compile time, so...
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12:17 < uriel> nickjohnson: isn't the whole point of interfaces in go that
the writer of a type doesn't need to know about the interfaces it implements?
12:18 < uriel> as long as the interface signatures match, you are go
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12:31 < nickjohnson> uriel: Let me give a concrete example
12:31 < nickjohnson> Library 'fmt' defines an interface 'Stringer' and a
method 'Printf(x Stringer)'
12:32 < nickjohnson> Library 'MyThing' defines a class that exports a
'String()' function, but has never heard of the 'Stringer' interface
12:32 < nickjohnson> In the .NET runtime, you have to declare the interfaces
you implement at compile time, but the 'MyThing' library can't declare its class
as implementing 'Stringer'
12:33 < jessta> I don'
12:33 < nickjohnson> So when I write a function that tries to pass MyThing's
object instance to 'fmt's method, it fails
12:33 < jessta> t thin you can use interfaces from different packages
12:33 < nickjohnson> jessta: In Go? It would be a bit pointless if you
couldn't.
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12:38 < Zeffrin> oh that clicking sound coming from my data drive is making
me want to cry, sorry to veer off topic but I need to share my sadness and
everyone else here went to bed :)
12:38 < murodese> i've had 3 go in the last week the same way :3
12:39 < Zeffrin> manage to get your data back?
12:39 < murodese> nope
12:39 < murodese> lost it all
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12:39 < murodese> a 500gb, 320gb and 200gb
12:39 < Zeffrin> ow :(
12:40 < murodese> nothing i couldn't afford to lose though
12:40 < Zeffrin> im just going to turn this machine off until I get another
drive, hopefully at the very least will get to keep my uni work
12:42 < jessta> nickjohnson: why couldn't you make MyThing implement the
'Stringer' interface?
12:43 < nickjohnson> jessta: Because when compiling library 'MyThing', I
don't know about the existence of the 'Stringer' interface
12:43 < uriel> nickjohnson: ah, you are just explaining how .net's
interfaces are different, well, is there no way to bypass that?
12:43 < nickjohnson> And when compiling something that uses both, it's too
late.
12:43 < nickjohnson> uriel: The only way I can think of is to have the
compiler construct a proxy object that implements 'Stringer' and wraps the
'MyThing' object
12:44 < nickjohnson> The same would be necessary, I think, when using Go's
support for "type Foo Bar" and defining new methods on Foo
12:44 < uriel> nickjohnson: isn't there anything like the empty interface in
.net which you can reduce all interfaces to?
12:44 < uriel> you would have to do all the type system on your own instead
of relying on .net's
12:44 < nickjohnson> uriel: Yes, but then you've reduced Go to a dynamic
language, and you'd have to use reflection at runtime and other nasty stuff to
access methods on an interface
12:45 < nickjohnson> And you've thrown away all the performance of being
statically typechecked
12:45 < uriel> well, you could just not check anything at runtime
12:45 < uriel> (not sure how technically feasible that would be)
12:45 < nickjohnson> .NET doesn't work that way - to encode a method call in
the IL, you have to have a handle to its type
12:45 < uriel> oh well...
12:46 < nickjohnson> I think dynamically creating wrappers is the only way
to go about it
12:46 < uriel> still, the question was how to make it run on .net, not how
to make it fast ;)
12:46 < uriel> if you want it to be fast, why bother running it on .net ;P
12:46 < nickjohnson> Yeah, but it's not worth implementing if you're
basically interpreting it.  :P
12:46 < nickjohnson> uriel: Knock knock
12:46 < uriel> heh
12:46 < nickjohnson> You're supposed to reply with "who's there?"
12:47 < uriel> I have no clue what is that about :)
12:47 < nickjohnson> You've never heard a knock knock joke?
12:47 < uriel> nope
12:47 * uriel is culturally illiterate
12:47 < nickjohnson> heh, never mind, then
12:48 < Zeffrin> > fmt.Print("Who's there nickjohnson?");
12:48 < rndbot> Who's there nickjohnson?
12:48 < nickjohnson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-knock_joke
12:48 < nickjohnson> <extremely long pause>
12:48 < nickjohnson> Java.
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12:48 < nickjohnson> It kind of works better in person ;)
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12:52 < Zeffrin> go is making me feel like i should rethink trying to be a
programmer...  this afternoon I saw the concurrent prime seive example in the spec
12:52 < Zeffrin> I can basically see how its working but I don't _really_
understand how it's working
12:52 < Zeffrin> some nifty voodoo tho, ill give it that
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12:56 < XniX23> Zeffrin: as far as i know, there are no "good" tutorials for
go yet
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12:58 < mikedee_> Java who?!
12:58 < uriel> Zeffrin: it is *really* simple!  think of it as a stack of
sieves
12:59 < Zeffrin> aye nothing aimed at beginner enough for me yet though I
have to admit, I need to finish reading through what is there so far *grumble work
takin up my time*
13:00 < uriel> Go is really making me rethink my plans to quit my carrier as
programmer, maybe there is hope after all
13:00 < uriel> the tutorial is not too bad
13:00 < Zeffrin> yah uriel but with the channel thing...  do the channels
created in sieve only live for on value or?
13:00 < uriel> and the 3-day-course slides are great
13:00 < XniX23> yes the slides are the best so far
13:00 < uriel> Zeffrin: no!  the channels pass the values from one filter to
the next
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13:01 < XniX23> why quit :o
13:01 < uriel> the slides are really great, wish there was video of the
acompagnining talks...
13:01 < Zeffrin> slides, hrm, ok these i havent seen yet
13:01 < uriel> XniX23: because things have just been getting worse and worse
for almost forty years in the software industry
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13:03 < XniX23> i feel like a baby on this channel
13:03 < Zeffrin> same
13:03 < XniX23> Zeffrin: age?
13:03 < Zeffrin> 28 heh
13:03 < XniX23> i still feel that way :p
13:04 * uriel is only 27
13:04 < XniX23> uriel: oh, thought you were older, my bad
13:04 < oklokok> lol you're so old you could grow a beard.
13:05 * uriel used to have a rather long 'Unix guru beard', but it was a huge pain
13:05 < nickjohnson> It just occurred to me that the prime filter example is
just as simple in Python: http://pastebin.com/m5948fc7f
13:06 < nickjohnson> Except for the bit where you explode the stack ;)
13:06 < oklokok> i just let all my body hair grow naturally, it's only a
pain if you don't like to look like a bum
13:07 < Zeffrin> for me it's because Im inexperienced...  funny though, i
wrote my first program at age 8 and studied some C right out of highschool...
I've always wanted to get into development and over the years have put together a
few small tools in my employment but, pretty much I've just bounced around in
support roles for the last 10 years
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13:08 < Zeffrin> went back to uni 2 years ago and got high distinction for
foundation programming and full marks + bonus in algorithms & data structures but
no completed degree so never found my chance to go into professional software
devel, just always been a hobby for me
13:08 < XniX23> i started 2 years ago on my college, and im 21 :\ wish i
started way sooner tho
13:09 < Zeffrin> if you love it, and are fortunate to have time to throw at
it you'll become good I think
13:10 < Zeffrin> I've heard starting young is very helpful but hasn't helped
me none
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13:11 < Zeffrin> if you're still studying, finish your degree...  for the
first year or two I helped some of my friends digest some concepts of programming
and after they graduated they started on double my salary
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13:12 < melba> Zeffrin, you can probably find a job without the degree, show
them some skillz
13:12 < XniX23> Zeffrin: i live in slovenia...  we are the country that has
the least difference in salaries...
13:12 < XniX23> yep, melba is right
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13:12 < Zeffrin> aye melba I hope so, im starting to put together an online
resume with some projects I've thrown together at work recently
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13:13 < Zeffrin> my current employer has an applications team developing
some tools but mainly our POS system which currently is very buggy..  I know I
could make a difference there, they only have one other full time programmer and
he asks me for help but I only started a year ago
13:14 < Zeffrin> I'm desperately trying to prove it'd be worth their while
to move me over into apps
13:14 < melba> can't you reapply for a new job position?
13:14 < melba> take the interview and everything
13:15 < melba> doesn't matter if it's the same employer
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13:16 < Zeffrin> aye but they're not advertising, a lot of the team know I
should be programming because they've seen some of the tools I did but we
previously had a CIO who was a bit of a tool
13:16 < melba> aha
13:16 < Zeffrin> he got fired 2 weeks ago because "he didnt fit our value of
integrity" so
13:16 < Zeffrin> things are looking up
13:17 < Zeffrin> wish me luck eh, if the executive team agree to start a new
POS project I should be included, just a matter of whether they can be convinced
our current one is losing us enough money to warrant the expense
13:18 < Zeffrin> silly though I dunno who coded it...  it was done on .net
1.0 which is all fine except, the developer didn't bother handling any exceptions
13:18 < Zeffrin> any unexpected condition and the store teams have to log
out of the system and log back in to get the boot script to reload it
13:19 < Zeffrin> costing us a fortune in time across all our stores
averaging 2-3 reload of the POS system per register, per day
13:19 < Zeffrin> plus its pretty bad telling customers at the counter like
"oh im sorry, this'll just be a moment our system crashed again"
13:19 < Zeffrin> "your eftpos went through but I'll just need a minute to
reprocess the sale to get you a receipt, sorry"
13:20 < Zeffrin> and hmmm, my appologies for whining
13:20 < Zeffrin> hittin the bourbon tonight lol
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13:25 < XniX23> ok...  i find something really weird...
13:25 < Zeffrin> ?
13:26 < XniX23> i have 2 functions Rotate90 and Rotate90Inv...  it ran ok
but when i changed name so Rotate90 was Rotate90Inv and Rotate90Inv ->
Rotate90...  and ran the program, when it was supposed to use it, my pc freezed
13:26 -!- loureiro [n=loureiro@189.2.128.130] has joined #go-nuts
13:27 < XniX23> and thats not the first time that happened :\
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13:34 < XniX23> Click: 175 393
13:34 < XniX23> mmap: errno=0xc
13:34 < XniX23> is that coz it eats too much ram?
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13:37 < KragenSitaker> XniX23: least difference in salaries between what?
13:37 < KragenSitaker> grads and non-grads?
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13:40 < XniX23> KragenSitaker: Yes that too...  after i graduate
(programmer) i was told im going that have on average 200€ more than someone who
graduated from geography etc.
13:40 < XniX23> that = to
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13:52 < nickjohnson> uriel: Hm, another barrier: Strings in .net are
character strings, but in Go they're byte strings - sort of.
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14:16 < uriel> nickjohnson: well, there should be a way to have byte strings
in .net, I hope
14:17 < nickjohnson> uriel: Byte arrays, yes.  But Go strings are weird.
14:17 < nickjohnson> You don't really want all your arguments to be byte
arrays, for example, and iterating over a string is...  complicated to implement
14:18 < uriel> :/
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14:30 < nickjohnson> Do all strings in Go have to be valid utf-8?
14:33 < uriel> nickjohnson: deffine 'have to'
14:34 < uriel> I think they are *supposed* to be
14:34 < uriel> but invalid chars wont break anything
14:34 < nickjohnson> uriel: Will the compiler throw an error if a string
literal isn't utf-8?  Waht about if I try and construct one at runtime?
14:34 < nickjohnson> And what if I try to iterate over one
14:34 < uriel> I think the compiler will probably complain, I think you
might be able to mess things up at runtime if you try hard enough
14:35 < uriel> well, utf-8 by its own nature can handle invalid chars fairly
well
14:35 -!- Peter` [n=peter@92.254.21.251] has joined #go-nuts
14:35 < nickjohnson> uriel: It can?  How so?
14:36 < uriel> it is easy to find where the next valid char starts
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14:36 < nickjohnson> Sure, but it can still have invalid characters
14:37 < uriel> obviously, I didn't say it couldn't, just that it is not a
disaster
14:37 < uriel> if an utf-32 (and much worse an utf-16) gets corrupted, you
are FUBAR
14:37 < nickjohnson> Only if a byte gets inserted or deleted
14:38 < uriel> yea, but it is hard to know if that has happened or not
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14:38 < uriel> with utf-8, you don't have to worry, you 're-sync' naturally
14:38 < nickjohnson> That's why I think utf-8 is a good transfer encoding,
but utf-32 makes much more sense as a memory representation
14:39 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@129.70.166.52] has quit []
14:39 < uriel> well, that depends on the task, as some have pointed on the
mailing list, unless you are writting a text editor, most things that can be done
simply in utf-32 (or Runes), can be done on utf-8
14:39 < uriel> plus utf-8 uses less cache, so it could actually be more
efficient
14:39 < uriel> (in the common case anyway)
14:40 < nickjohnson> Cache size of text strings is rarely a performance
bottleneck, I think
14:40 < nickjohnson> And the main issue is that people expect ot be able to
index characters in a string in O(1)
14:40 < uriel> maybe not, but you still can fit much more utf-8 text than
utf-32 text
14:41 < nickjohnson> fmt.Printf("%s", "\xE2\x82\xAC");
14:41 < nickjohnson> uriel: So? :)
14:41 < nickjohnson> > fmt.Printf("%s", "\xE2\x82\xAC");
14:41 < rndbot> €
14:41 < uriel> anyway, I'm just saying that utf-8 does make sense for
in-memory work too, just not for everything
14:41 < nickjohnson> > fmt.Printf("%s", "\xE2\x82!");
14:41 < rndbot> â‚!
14:42 < nickjohnson> Okay, that's definitely not a valid unicode character
14:42 < nickjohnson> uriel: But you need your language to work "for
everything", generally
14:42 < uriel> nickjohnson: that is why Go has runes
14:42 < uriel> for when you need them, which again is not very often
14:42 < nickjohnson> Personally, though, I think the language should specify
character strings, and byte arrays, and how to convert between them, but the
in-memory encoding should be irrelevant to the language spec
14:42 < nickjohnson> runes?  I haven't seen that
14:43 < nickjohnson> 'rune' doesn't match in the language spec anywhere...
14:43 < nickjohnson> ...  or in the standard library
14:43 < uriel> (and note that utf-8 *works* all the time, it just might be
slow to index in *very* long strings, but that is a fairly rare case, and agian
there are runes if you really need that,
14:44 < uriel> plus you can keep an array with indexes to points in the
string if you want to speed up indexing in a very long string, so there are many
options to deal with this problem)
14:44 < nickjohnson> Like I said, I'd prefer that a language have an
explicit distinction between 'characters' and 'bytes', and leave the choice of
in-memory encoding up to the implementation.
14:44 < nickjohnson> Programs shouldn't need to be aware of it
14:44 < nickjohnson> uriel: Again, where are these runes you speak of?
14:44 < uriel> nickjohnson: sure it does, http://golang.org/pkg/utf8/
14:45 -!- Peter- [n=peter@92.254.21.251] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection
timed out)]
14:45 < uriel> and read Rob and Ken's original UTF-8 paper:
http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/utf
14:45 < uriel> it also covers runes
14:45 < nickjohnson> okay, so it's a library module
14:45 < uriel> (although runes originally were 16bit, and now they are 32bit
in Go)
14:46 < nickjohnson> Still doesn't answer my criticism about the conflation
of bytes and characters.  :)
14:46 < uriel> what criticism?
14:46 < uriel> and what conflation?
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14:46 < vsmatck> Does that need language support?  Can it be done on the
library level?
14:47 < nickjohnson> Strings are byte strings, when you're indexing them,
and utf-8 strings when you're enumerating over them
14:47 < uriel> hey scandal
14:47 < nickjohnson> And the encoding the compiler uses matters to the
library, when really it shouldn't
14:47 < uriel> nickjohnson: no, in Go they are unicode-codepoint-strings
(ie., utf-8)
14:47 < nickjohnson> s/compiler/runtime/
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connection]
14:47 < nickjohnson> uriel: No, if they were that, indexing them would
return a codepoint
14:47 < uriel> nickjohnson: are strings byte arrays when you index them?
14:47 < nickjohnson> yes.
14:48 < nickjohnson> immutable byte arrays, rather
14:48 < uriel> oh well, don't index them then ;P
14:48 < nickjohnson> Then why offer the option?
14:48 < uriel> (unless you know what you are doing)
14:48 < nickjohnson> > fmt.Printf("%d", len("\xE2\x82\xAC""));
14:48 < rndbot> <Error: newline in string, syntax error near
"<string>">
14:48 < nickjohnson> oops
14:48 < nickjohnson> > fmt.Printf("%d", len("\xE2\x82\xAC"));
14:48 < rndbot> 3
14:49 < uriel> nickjohnson: it is the old Unix adage: UNIX was not designed
to stop its users from doing stupid things, as that would also stop them from
doing clever things.
14:49 < uriel> — Doug Gwyn
14:49 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@200.160.16.18] has joined #go-nuts
14:49 < nickjohnson> uriel: That doesn't mean you can't design your language
better
14:49 < uriel> how would be better?
14:49 < nickjohnson> Indexing a string is either a) not supported or b)
returns a codepoint
14:50 < uriel> nickjohnson: how not supporting indexing of a string would be
'better'?!?
14:50 < nickjohnson> Iteration likewise iterates over characters - and with
indexing returning codepoints, there'd be no need to provide the byte offset,
either - or for programs to care about the internal encoding
14:50 < nickjohnson> uriel: Because it eliminates this schitzophrenic view
of strings as sometimes-bytes, sometimes-codepoints.  I would far prefer option b,
however.
14:50 < uriel> it is useful in many cases, as again has been pointe dout
repetatedly, many algorithms that work on ascii strings work on utf-8 strings, and
to index the bytes that made up that string is helpful to do that
14:51 < nickjohnson> What would you use string indexing, as it currently
exists, for?
14:51 < uriel> nickjohnson: substring matching for example?
14:51 < uriel> all kinds of things really
14:51 < nickjohnson> uriel: Then you'll match partial unicode characters,
potentially
14:51 < uriel> I'm sure a regexp lib would make considerable use of it
14:52 < p4p4_> hi, i'm playing around with some library bindings(sdl,cairo),
and i always get the same cgo error: 'dwarf.Type TTF_Font reports unknown size'.
(TTF_Font is : 'typedef struct _TTF_FONT TTF_Font;')
14:52 < uriel> nickjohnson: if the string you are matching against has
partial unicode characters...
14:52 < uriel> nickjohnson: nothing wrong with that
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14:52 < nickjohnson> It could do all that if it was indexing codepoints, too
- and quite likely with fewer problems
14:53 < uriel> nickjohnson: except that indexing unicode codepoints ==
iterating over the string, that is why iteration works
14:53 < nickjohnson> uriel: But that's a separate issue - I'm asking about
the usefulness of indexing the string, not iterating over it
14:53 < uriel> nickjohnson: if you want to play with bytes, use array
indexing, if you want to play with codepoints, iterate, that is how it works, it
is simple, efficient and clean
14:54 < tor7> you're arguing in favor of the way Java does strings...  and
we all know how broken that is.  not to mention opening the big can of encoding
worms.
14:54 < uriel> nickjohnson: it is useful as I said to implement all kinds of
things, among them pretty much anything that worked for C ascii strings
14:54 < uriel> and now I need to have lunch ;P
14:54 < nickjohnson> uriel: Why would you want to 'play with bytes' in an
immutable utf-8 string, though?
14:54 < uriel> tor7: exactly
14:54 < nickjohnson> tor7: No, how broken is it?
14:54 < tor7> I for one am perfectly pleased with utf-8 strings
14:54 < uriel> nickjohnson: again, for all kinds of stuff, write a regexp
lib and find out
14:54 < nickjohnson> uriel: No, because if you do "anything that worked for
c ascii strings", you'll break unicode support in your app
14:55 < nickjohnson> uriel: All of which could be accomplished better if
indexing returned codepoints
14:55 < uriel> nickjohnson: no you wont
14:55 < tor7> and if I need codepoints, I will do "type Runestring []uint32"
14:55 < uriel> nickjohnson: to index by codepoints *you have to iterate!*
14:55 < nickjohnson> uriel: That's _not_indexing_
14:55 < uriel> tor7: exactly!
14:56 < uriel> nickjohnson: that is how utf-8 strings work!  if you don't
like it, use an array of Runes as tor7 said!
14:56 < nickjohnson> uriel: And my point is that life would be easier all
around if Go strings didn't behave as utf-8 bytestrings, but rather as character
strings.
14:56 * uriel goes huntting
14:56 < nickjohnson> tor7: Really, how are Java strings broken?
14:56 < uriel> nickjohnson: *wrong*, I like utf-8 strings, and I don't want
runes 95% of the time
14:57 < uriel> nickjohnson: Java Strings are broken in pretty much every
imaginable way
14:57 < tor7> there's a bit of obnoxiousness involved in the design.
unicode is here, it has won, let's all stop this encoding insanity and all agree
to use utf-8
14:57 < nickjohnson> uriel: Then show me a case where returning a byte from
indexing is _better_ than returning a character
14:57 < uriel> tor7: amen
14:57 < tor7> which is a sentiment I wholly stand behind
14:57 -!- Anders__ [n=Anders@c83-253-2-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #go-nuts
14:58 < nickjohnson> tor7: I agree entirely - but part of not caring about
encoding is not having to deal with it at all.  If everything is a character, you
don't have to care about encoding at all.
14:59 < tor7> so that you can implement the utf-8 stuff in the runtime you
need access to the underlying bytes.  you also need to be able to deal with
encoding errors and resync if you're getting data in chunks
14:59 -!- jdp [n=gu@75.97.120.11] has quit []
14:59 < uriel> nickjohnson: you might not care, but some people do, why
can't you just leave them alone?
14:59 < nickjohnson> You can get all that by using your runtime's string
support to convert to/from byte arrays
14:59 < uriel> tor7: ah, that too, to implement the Go runtime in Go, you
want that too
15:00 < nickjohnson> uriel: I don't want to have to care about encoding
issues.  That doesn't mean I don't care about how strings are represented in a
language.  I care very much.
15:00 < tor7> even if os.Read returned a buffer that was split in the middle
of a utf-8 character?
15:00 < nickjohnson> tor7: Instantiate an 'encoding' object, feed it with
bytes, and let it care about state
15:00 < uriel> nickjohnson: but you are not asking for the way strings are
represented to be changed, you are asking for it to be impossible for people that
care to access it directly
15:01 < tor7> *shudders* not the way I would do it, and that makes the
language even more dependent on library design
15:01 < uriel> nickjohnson: I don't want to instantiate an encoding object
every time I read a string, that is what makes python and java string handling
such a fucking nightmare
15:01 < nickjohnson> uriel: No - if you care, you convert it to a byte array
in whatever encoding you need.
15:01 < uriel> I just need utf-8, and I'm happy with that
15:01 < nickjohnson> uriel: You don't - you just need to call
String(some_bytes) or somesuch
15:02 < nickjohnson> You'd only need an encoding object if you wanted to
decode a stream of bytes progressively
15:02 < uriel> (unless the reare ocasion when I need Runes, in which case I
convert to a rune array, and that is it)
15:02 < tor7> as it is, the actual language doesn't know about the meaning
of strings.  it's just an array of bytes until it hits the fmt library where
convention dictates that it it utf-8
15:02 < nickjohnson> tor7: Or you iterate over them, which is a core part of
the language.
15:02 < uriel> tor7: well, iterate knows...
15:03 < uriel> but that is a handy bit of sugar
15:03 -!- malkomalko [n=malkomal@69.113.89.202] has quit []
15:03 < nbaum> func Encode (text string, encoding string) []byte
15:03 < nbaum> Seems reasonably obvious.  No need for a song-and-dance about
it.
15:03 < nickjohnson> indeed
15:04 < nickjohnson> uriel: A single plausible use case about why indexing a
string by byte would be more useful than by character would go some of the way to
convincing me...
15:05 < nbaum> It would be very useful if strings were arrays of characters.
OTOH, I would want Ѡ̀ (capital omega, combining grave accent) to be a single
character for most purposes.  It doesn't exist as a single codepoint, though.
15:05 < uriel> nickjohnson: implementing the go runtime, as tor7 pointed out
(unless you want the runtime to do lots of copying behind the scenes)
15:05 < nickjohnson> nbaum: I think you have to complain to the unicode
committee about that one, alas
15:06 < uriel> the unicode committee is completely deranged, but then, so
are most committees
15:06 < nickjohnson> uriel: I really don't see why that would be a problem.
Just write a utf-8 encoder/decoder in Go that reads characters and converts them
to byte sequences
15:06 < nbaum> nickjohnson: I'd solve it with a higher level abstraction
above "runes".  Or just not use indexing.
15:06 < tor7> Java also fell into the trap of char being 16-bit...  that
worked well when unicode extended past the BMP.
15:06 < tor7> but that's not really relevant to the discussion
15:06 < uriel> tor7: java and windows *YUCK*
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15:06 < nickjohnson> nbaum: I'd be happier without indexing than with byte
indexing - but I'd be happier again with character indexing.
15:07 < tor7> surrogate pairs wooo!
15:07 < uriel> tor7: ugh!
15:07 < tor7> surrogate pairs in utf-8, even more ugh...
15:07 < uriel> tor7: also know as "the worst strings of all possible worlds"
15:08 < uriel> surrogate pairs in utf-8?  WTF?  did somebody overdose on
lsd?
15:08 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #go-nuts
15:08 < nickjohnson> Er, how do you find the number of characters in a
string, anyway?
15:08 < nbaum> I would expect character indexing for a string.  I am
surprised by byte indexing of something that isn't a []byte.
15:08 < uriel> nickjohnson: you iterate with a counter, or use a function
15:08 < nickjohnson> uriel: So there's no standard library function for
string length in characters?
15:09 < uriel> nbaum: life is full of surprises!
15:09 < uriel> nickjohnson: I'm absolutely certain there is one, but I can't
remember it on an empty stomach
15:09 < nbaum> uriel: Hardly itself a sufficient justification.  ;-)
15:09 < nickjohnson> It's not in the 'strings' module, at least
15:09 < tor7> nbaum did bring up another point against indexing by
characters.  combining characters are multiple code points but should be treated
as a unit.  similar to utf-8
15:09 < nbaum> unicode package, I would expect?
15:10 < nickjohnson> nope
15:10 < nbaum> tor7: Do if know if there's an official Unicode term for such
a unit?
15:10 < tor7> yes, but I've forgotten :(
15:10 < nickjohnson> tor7: But that's not a point 'against' indexing by
characters unless the alternative handles it any better, which to my knowledge it
doesn't.
15:11 < nbaum> utf8.RuneCountInString
15:11 < uriel> nickjohnson: anyway, bring it up to ken and rob, they have
forgotten more about strings and utf-8 than I will ever dream of knowing
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15:11 < uriel> ;P
15:11 < tor7> working with utf-8 you're doing things in a similar way, going
the extra mile won't be such a big break in the way you're thinking
15:11 * uriel now really goes hunt for food, flamewards on an empty stomach are
not healthy :)
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15:23 < p4p4_> (hmm, might as well try again..)
15:23 < p4p4_> i'm playing around with some library bindings(sdl,cairo), and
i always get the same cgo error: 'dwarf.Type TTF_Font reports unknown size'.
(TTF_Font is : 'typedef struct _TTF_FONT TTF_Font;')
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#go-nuts
15:24 < wilsonc> hi, just curious: is there really *no* subclassing in go ?
15:26 < nickjohnson> wilsonc: Go provides alternative mechanisms -
interfaces and anonymous members
15:27 < wilsonc> nickjohnson: are they complicated ? what are the advantages
compared to normal subclassing ?
15:27 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577BB995.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts
15:29 -!- malkomalko [n=malkomal@96.232.72.138] has joined #go-nuts
15:29 < nickjohnson> wilsonc: Reading the language design FAQ is probably
the best answer to that.  And no, they're not complicated.
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(Connection timed out)]
15:30 < wilsonc> nickjohnson: ok, the answer seems to be "speed" ;)
15:32 < tor7> wilsonc: they give you more flexibility than rigid inheritance
architectures, without the madness of multiple inheritance.  the code also reads
more transparently with less implicit behind the scenes stuff going on.
15:32 < jordyd> wilsonc: http://golang.org/doc/go_lang_faq.html#inheritance
15:32 < jordyd> If you were not already looking there.
15:33 -!- andrewh [n=andrewh@89.193.212.36] has joined #go-nuts
15:33 -!- rajeshsr [n=rajeshsr@59.92.79.210] has joined #go-nuts
15:33 < rajeshsr> hi
15:34 < rajeshsr> it has been more than a week, since i was here!  Any major
change I missed?
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15:35 < nickjohnson> A nuclear reactor control system was written in Go. A
test reactor had a criticality excursion due to an incorrectly buffered channel.
Go now banned for use in critical systems.
15:35 < nickjohnson> Other than that, not much.
15:36 <+danderson> nah, not banned
15:36 < uriel> p4p4_: I think there is an issue aobut that in the issue
tracker
15:36 <+danderson> the reactors are just required to carry a "beta" sticker
15:36 < nickjohnson> danderson: heh
15:36 < uriel> p4p4_: otherwise it might be a cgo issue that has been fixed
recently, make sure you have the hg tip
15:36 * sladegen incants: it's the end of the world as it was going
15:36 < rajeshsr> haha!  :)
15:36 < wilsonc> ok, makes sense - i am very interested in this project - i
did a lot in php and python, but i missed the speed of compiler languages.
everyone of my friends are enthusiastic about c#, but unfortunatly this is no
(good) option for me as a linux user
15:37 < p4p4_> i'll look for it ! ( i just think, it compiled for the
library authors, why not for me ? )
15:37 < uriel> wilsonc: subclassing is a *really* stupid and evil way of
sharing code
15:37 < uriel> p4p4_: oh, then it means you need to update
15:37 < KragenSitaker> uriel: heh, it has its places
15:38 < uriel> p4p4_: quite a few fixes have gone into cgo in the last few
days
15:38 < uriel> KragenSitaker: no
15:38 < tor7> no.  not really.  (agrees with uriel, again, it seems)
15:38 < wilsonc> uriel: why ?
15:39 < p4p4_> funny world, where a 1 week old compiler isn't good any more
..  :)
15:39 < p4p4_> but i'll do.
15:39 < uriel> wilsonc: many reasons, among them it confounds code sharing
and the type system, it arbitrarily forzes a mix of data and behavior, etc..
15:40 < KragenSitaker> subclassing comes from smalltalk, which doesn't have
a type system
15:40 < uriel> wilsonc: even the most fervent object oriented zealots have
been pointing out for years now that composition is much better than inheritance
15:40 < KragenSitaker> (unless it's from Simula?  I don't know Simula well
enough to be sure)
15:40 < KragenSitaker> uriel: they have been pointing out that composition
is often much better than inheritance
15:41 < rajeshsr> I remember seeing an example about writing wrappers for C
lib.  Unable to see the link again.
15:41 < uriel> KragenSitaker: well, sub-classing might have been a good idea
in smalltalk, but you know what the guy that created smalltalk said?  "I invented
the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.  -- Alan
Kay
15:41 < rajeshsr> anyone could help me out?
15:42 < uriel> rajeshsr: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings <--
quite a few examples
15:42 < rajeshsr> uriel, ha, ok!  so, u own that site?  cool!
15:43 < uriel> I try to keep it up to date, but I'm having trouble keeping
up
15:44 < uriel> rajeshsr: there is one package in the distribution that uses
cgo as an example, but I can't find it now
15:45 < wilsonc> i never had problems sharing objective code with
subclassing, but ok - i will get used to the go standards :)
15:45 < rajeshsr> yeah, a new language where changes are published at the
speed of light it is not humanly possible to keep that upto date!  Your efforts to
make that is appreciable!
15:46 -!- Odemia [n=Odemia-D@207.47.143.154] has joined #go-nuts
15:46 < uriel> rajeshsr: thanks, glad somebody finds it useful
15:47 < rajeshsr> BTW, did anyone notice that Google is moving into a spree
of releasing products?!  Go, wave, chrome OS, all quite landmark!!
15:47 < rajeshsr> am too thrilled to look it all up and keep track of it!
15:48 < rajeshsr> uriel, welcome!  A central repo of information that is
updated much is something I wanted to have.  Am also looking to have some lib
sharing site, like cpane in perl for Go. That can make it mature faster..
15:48 * uriel wonders what is a lanmark of yet another linux distribution, and
some bizarre web app that makes any computer crawl on its knees and which nobody
has found any use for so far
15:48 < tor7> chrome os doesn't thrill me one bit, but the chrome browser is
the best thing to happen to the web in a long long time
15:49 < uriel> (other than to write articles about how hyped it is)
15:49 < uriel> tor7: agreed
15:49 < rajeshsr> uriel, Wave is really good!  Am not sure abt chrome OS, of
corz!
15:49 < uriel> this is offtopic here anyway
15:49 < rajeshsr> ok :)
15:49 < rajeshsr> yeah, let us not digress and keep it on topic
15:49 < rajeshsr> :)
15:50 < uriel> (but I still have to find anyone that uses wave for anything
other than just messing around and waiting for their browser to come back to life
after every click)
15:50 -!- minwi [n=minwi@195.34.70.90] has left #go-nuts ["Abandonando"]
15:50 < tor7> it's not just "yet another linux dist" ...  it's a crippled
beast that you can't modify yourself because it needs its own firmware that it
checks.  it's something I'd expect of a telco, not google.  </rant>
15:50 < uriel> tor7: heh
15:51 -!- tokuhiro_______2 [i=tokuhiro@p4222-ipbf2505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp]
has joined #go-nuts
15:51 * uriel always wondered how Google managed to handle the culture clash
between the Web 2.0 hipsters and the hardcore research/systems people...
15:51 < rajeshsr> uriel, ha, well.  Wave needs a lot of optimization to make
it work better and faster!  But the idea is awesome.  IMHO, It has a lot of
prospects of becoming the future of communication.
15:51 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.71.132] has joined #go-nuts
15:52 * uriel rolls eyes
15:53 < tor7> future of communication?  I'll give up my ICQ over my cold
dead body...
15:53 < Zaba> Wave is harder to understand than the superstring theory
15:53 < nbaum> tor7: You mean XMPP, of course!
15:53 < rajeshsr> Zaba, yeah!  :) Too cryptic for a normal user!
15:54 < uriel> Zaba: hahaha...  that goes into my quotes file
15:54 < rajeshsr> still, it can get better!  I still think they should have
delayed releasing that to public so soon!
15:54 < tor7> now don't get me started on the mere thought of implementing
an IM protocol in ...drumroll...  XML
15:54 < nbaum> Google specialise in releasing too soon.  :-)
15:54 < rajeshsr> nbaum, and be beta for a loooooooooooong time!  :)
15:54 < uriel> I think they should have killed the whole thing before it got
beyond a silly idea somebody had, but I'm optimistic that it will fail miserably
15:55 < Zaba> xmpp is awfully horrid and yes, I know, that's an
understatement, but honestly, I have better things to do than spend time making up
words describing something so bad.
15:55 < uriel> Zaba: indeed :))
15:55 < uriel> not enough negative words have been invented in the history
of the english language to describe XMPP
15:55 < tor7> it's such a shame that AOL seem hellbent on destroying ICQ.
leaving us with no choice but embrace XMPP
15:56 < rajeshsr> uriel, so what is better then?!  :)
15:56 < uriel> tor7: irc still works fine last I checked...
15:56 < uriel> rajeshsr: better than what?  and for what?
15:56 < rajeshsr> XMPP
15:56 < uriel> irc, for one
15:56 < Zaba> it depends on what purpose you use xmpp for
15:56 < tor7> I'm here, but many people don't have the luxury of IRC access
at work :)
15:56 < uriel> after over ten years of creating thousands of specs and
extensions, xmpp still can't handle multi-user chat as well as irc does!
15:57 < nbaum> They probably wouldn't have the luxury of XMPP access?
15:57 < rajeshsr> uriel, XMPP does, if am not wrong.  Google group chat uses
some other mechanism?  Pardon my ignorance..
15:57 < uriel> tor7: I know, wave^2 should be irc running on port 80 ;P
15:57 < nickjohnson> uriel: And HTTP isn't as good as IMAP at mailbox
access!?!?
15:58 < uriel> rajeshsr: xmpp has supposedly been able to do group chat for
many years, there are about a dozen different 'standards' or 'specs' or
'extension', or whatever they call them about it
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(Connection timed out)]
15:58 < uriel> rajeshsr: all implementations of it are broken in different
ways
15:58 < Zaba> well, irc could be vastly improved, too, except now it's too
late, with all those different ircds around
15:58 < tor7> uriel: that'll be the day
15:58 -!- inittab- [n=dlbeer@ip-118-90-62-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #go-nuts
15:58 < uriel> nickjohnson: both http and imap are awful, but I guess http
is probalby slightly saner
15:58 -!- aa [n=aa@r200-40-114-26.ae-static.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #go-nuts
15:59 < nbaum> HTTP and IMAP aren't comparable.
15:59 < nickjohnson> uriel: My point is that XMPP and IRC aren't the same
protocol, or even solving the same thing.  Saying one is worse than the other
because it can't do some particular thing is meaningless.
15:59 < nbaum> You'd need to be comparing a web-server over HTTP with IMAP.
15:59 < nbaum> Erm.  Web-service.
15:59 < nickjohnson> nbaum: That's my point.
15:59 < rajeshsr> nbaum, nickjohnson says the same point between IRC and
XMPP
15:59 < KragenSitaker> uriel: yes, I repeat that Kay quote often.  But
subclassing isn't an invention of C++.  (Hmm, the fact that it's present in C++
makes me think that maybe it was present in Simula too)
15:59 < uriel> nbaum: true, ok, I guess imap is more broken (specially more
implementations are incompatible, *cough* gmail *cough*)
16:00 < uriel> nickjohnson: xmpp certainly doesn't solve any problems, but
it sure creates many (ok, it migh solve the same problem as c++: unemployment
among masochistic programmers)
16:00 < nbaum> XMPP solves the problem of having a zero-conf federated chat
network.
16:00 < nickjohnson> uriel: XMPP is a presence and chat protocol.  It's also
practically the only way to do that that isn't proprietary.
16:00 < nickjohnson> nbaum: Exactly.
16:00 < uriel> KragenSitaker: again, subclassing might make sense in
smalltalk, but when people ask for it, smalltalk is rarely what they have in mind
16:01 < uriel> nickjohnson: irc provides chat and presence, and an
infinitely simpler, more reliable, more sane, and more efficient way
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(Connection timed out)]
16:01 < Zaba> the problem is that people make things, then apply them as
solutions to all problems, create massive hype around it, despite the fact it
doesn't work.  And in some rare cases, doesn't work well.  Exhibit #1: XML.
16:01 < nickjohnson> uriel: IRC doesn't provide presence.  You can sort of
hack it on top of it, if you try.
16:01 < KragenSitaker> building something less reliable, less simple, or
less sane than IRC is a tough job!
16:01 < tor7> nickjohnson: XMPP solves a real problem.  It just does it in
the most complicated way possible.
16:01 < Zaba> nickjohnson, there's that 'away' command
16:02 < nickjohnson> IRC also doesn't provide authentication, so the uriel I
talk to today may not be the uriel I talk to tomorrow.
16:02 < uriel> and really, any three years old could design something better
than xmpp, if only because only somebody that thinks he is super smart can have
delusions as insane as xmpp
16:02 < Zaba> nickjohnson, which needn't be a part of a protocol, because
services can enforce it very well
16:02 < nickjohnson> tor7: I don't much like the design of XMPP either, but
I'm pragmatic: It's here, and it does the job.
16:02 < uriel> nickjohnson: irc channels do provide presence
16:02 < nbaum> uriel: But XMPP actually exists.
16:02 < Zaba> IRC doesn't exist!  News to me.
16:03 < nickjohnson> uriel: So your point is that you can hack IM-like
features onto IRC, therefore it's better than an IM protocol?
16:03 < uriel> it is here, and it is a nightmare that causes tons of pain
and missery, my pragmatic take is: throw it into /dev/null where it always
belonged
16:03 < KragenSitaker> Zaba: no, uriel is talking about a hypothetical
protocol designed by a three-year-old
16:03 < tor7> nickjohnson: yup, but I gave up my plans on writing my own IM
client for XMPP before I could even smell the protocol :(
16:03 < uriel> nickjohnson: better than abomination as xmpp?  yes
16:03 < nickjohnson> uriel: Then why isn't there a single IM network based
on IRC?
16:03 -!- p4p4_ [n=P4p4@82.113.106.24] has quit [Connection timed out]
16:03 < uriel> nickjohnson: irc *is* an im network!
16:03 < nbaum> It doesn't cause _me_ any pain and misery.
16:03 < nickjohnson> uriel: No, IRC is a _chat_ protocol.
16:04 < Zaba> any irc network is, to some extent, an IM network, being able
to transfer messages 'instantly' and all that.
16:04 < uriel> nbaum: that must be because you don't use and you have not
had to admin any xmpp server (or worse, have to write any software that deals with
xmpp)
16:04 * nbaum can't say he uses IRC for chatting to individuals.
16:04 < KragenSitaker> IRC and XMPP cause me about equal quantities of pain,
because I use them both every day
16:04 < nickjohnson> Without per-person presence notifications, or
authentication, or reliable names
16:04 < uriel> nickjohnson: you are spliting hairs
16:04 < KragenSitaker> those aren't hairs
16:04 < Zaba> nickjohnson, irc can have reliable names
16:04 < KragenSitaker> those are the core features of an IM system
16:04 < melba> the osi model should incorporate irc
16:04 < uriel> Zaba: and authentication
16:04 < Zaba> the beauty is that they aren't built into the protocol, but
still live pretty well
16:04 < KragenSitaker> (plus sending messages)
16:04 < nickjohnson> uriel: I'm not, because those are essential features of
an IM network - far more than the actual chatting, arguably - and the only way to
use them in IRC is to hack on lots of convention and ad-hoc solutions like
nameservers
16:05 < nbaum> uriel: I administer two, and have written software which runs
on both servers and in a web browser to communicate on the networks.
16:05 < tor7> who needs presence notification if all your friends are other
geeks who'ro also always on?  ;)
16:05 < nickjohnson> Zaba: That's not a 'beauty' when you're trying to build
a federated network that behaves consistently.
16:05 < nbaum> Obviously I don't use the horrible wire protocol directly,
but I'm not a mentalist.
16:05 < Zaba> nickjohnson, that's a beauty when your ircd is already enough
of a hell to maintain
16:05 < uriel> nickjohnson: and features that are quite broken in xmpp, just
like many things are broken in irc, but irc is still infinitely simpler, more
efficient and more reliable, and more universally implemented
16:06 < uriel> tor7: haha
16:06 < nickjohnson> uriel: Again, note the total lack of IRC-based IM
clients
16:06 < uriel> nickjohnson: irc clients *are* im clients!
16:06 < nbaum> Actually, I have several IM clients with IRC support.
16:06 < KragenSitaker> nickjohnson: pidgin supports IRC.  it just doesn't
work very well
16:06 < tor7> Miranda for windows is a decent IM and IRC client
16:06 < rajeshsr> uriel, well, do you IM your friends with IRC?!
16:06 < uriel> I don't use 'IM', because I use irc, they serve compltely
equivalent functions
16:06 < nickjohnson> And the fact that every single major IRC network,
practically speaking, implements things like authentication differently
16:06 < nickjohnson> uriel: No, they're _chat_ clients.
16:06 < nbaum> My XMPP server also supports IRC.  :-)
16:06 < uriel> rajeshsr: yes, thank god for bitlbee!
16:06 < KragenSitaker> I do IM my friends with IRC
16:06 < KragenSitaker> but more often I use it for group chat
16:07 < nickjohnson> Suppose I want to be notified when one of my friends
comes online or offline.  Either I have to persuade them all to join the same
channel, or I have to poll.
16:07 < melba> i have the telephone nums of my friends
16:07 -!- inittab [n=dlbeer@118.90.0.154] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection
timed out)]
16:07 < KragenSitaker> melba: do you send them SMSes?
16:07 < nickjohnson> Further, you can't federate IRC unless all the servers
trust one another, because IRC wasn't designed for disjoint trust or
authentication domains
16:07 < melba> no, i call them
16:07 < tor7> I IM my friends with ICQ and increasingly XMPP; group and work
chat on IRC.
16:07 < uriel> melba: hehehe
16:07 < wm_eddie> I've stopped using IM about a week ago...  but still use
irc
16:07 < KragenSitaker> melba: you only talk to them when you're willing to
interrupt whatever they're doing?
16:07 < melba> yes, i'm like that
16:07 < uriel> wm_eddie: I stopped using 'IM' a couple of years ago
16:08 < nickjohnson> KragenSitaker: That's more or less my point - you can
implement it, but only poorly.  Just like you could do, say, IMAP over HTTP.
16:08 < uriel> wm_eddie: been really happy ever since
16:08 < Zaba> well, all my friends use irc
16:08 < ni|> happy thanksgiving :)
16:08 < Whtiger> How would I combine 2 byte arrays?
16:08 < melba> plus they can always refuse to answer
16:08 < nbaum> KragenSitaker: Or when they've reached a natural break,
presumably.
16:08 < nickjohnson> Whtiger: Combine in what manner?
16:08 < uriel> ni|!
16:08 < nbaum> What's this, a Go question?
16:08 < uriel> nbaum: hahaha
16:08 < rajeshsr> nbaum, :)
16:08 < Whtiger> nickjohnson: concatinate?
16:08 < tor7> Whtiger: bytes.Copy()
16:09 < uriel> A Go question?  go fuck yourself!
16:09 < Zaba> and I most often don't care whether the someone I'm talking to
is around, they have awaylogs and such
16:09 < uriel> tor7: now there is a copy() built in function
16:09 < rajeshsr> I would love to have a copy of this discussion,
particularly what nbaum finally said!  :)
16:09 < tor7> really?
16:09 < Zaba> and I have enough mental scrollback to interpret an
out-of-context reply several days later...
16:09 < KragenSitaker> nbaum: you can't call someone when they've reached a
natural break unless you have some other means of communication
16:09 < uriel> and I think bytes.Copy() is deprecated
16:09 < ni|> uriel: yes?
16:09 < uriel> tor7: yes, since, a few days ago
16:09 < nickjohnson> Whtiger: Allocate a new array and use bytes.Copy to
copy the two arrays into it
16:09 < tor7> neat.  I better update.
16:09 < ni|> uriel: are you terrorizing the go programmers now too!?
16:09 < nickjohnson> or rather, a new slice
16:09 < nbaum> KragenSitaker: Well, as melba says, they can choose not to
answer.  :-)
16:09 < rajeshsr> uriel, oh they started deprecating!!  :)
16:10 < uriel> ni|: can't help it :(
16:10 < ni|> happy thanksgiving to you though uriel
16:10 < KragenSitaker> nbaum: that's true.  but that works a lot better with
SMS or IM than with the phone
16:10 < tor7> last time I did hg up got a broken state that didn't compile
:(
16:10 < ni|> uriel: i had a feeling you couldn't
16:10 < nbaum> Though I consider phones to be really rude.
16:10 < ni|> :)
16:10 < uriel> ni|: I don't know what that is, but happy to you too ;P
16:10 < KragenSitaker> uriel: a US holiday for contemplating the things one
has to be thankful for
16:10 < KragenSitaker> uriel: based on a harvest festival from the 1600s
16:11 * exch removed PCRE depdency from his lastfm package
16:11 < rajeshsr> KragenSitaker, Thankful to whom?
16:11 < KragenSitaker> rajeshsr: thankfulness doesn't necessarily involve an
object
16:11 < nbaum> Providence.
16:11 < uriel> exch: yay!
16:11 < ni|> exch: you have a lastfm package in go?
16:11 < exch> :)
16:11 < uriel> exch: thanks and congratulations!  ;)
16:11 < exch> ya
16:11 < ni|> exch: is the source public?
16:11 < ni|> would be curious to see
16:11 < exch> http://github.com/jteeuwen/go-pkg-lastfm
16:12 < rajeshsr> KragenSitaker, ok!
16:12 < uriel> KragenSitaker: ok, /me is thankful for Go :))
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16:12 < KragenSitaker> uriel: heh, me too :)
16:12 < KragenSitaker> uriel: where do you live?
16:12 < uriel> KragenSitaker: currently in Sweden
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16:12 < tor7> is there a golang.org that serves the latest development?
16:13 < tor7> (for when I'm lazy and can't be bothered to run my own godoc)
16:13 < Whtiger> I don't have a bytes.Copy()
16:13 < chickamade> nickjohnson: off-topic, but did you see my Fractran
code-golf entry?  (84 fractions)
16:13 < uriel> tor7: not sure, maybe I should set that up somewhere..
16:13 < nickjohnson> chickamade: Seriously?
16:14 < chickamade> yep!
16:14 < uriel> tor7: note that the docs are taken from the source, so...
16:14 < nickjohnson> chickamade: holy crap
16:14 < tor7> I could probably set one up on ghostscript.com, but I'm afraid
the server doesn't really hold for much more pressure :(
16:15 < rajeshsr> uriel, may be he is too lazy to type "godoc"!  :P
16:15 < nickjohnson> chickamade: I wish you'd submitted that before I
awarded the bounty to the other fractran answer
16:15 < uriel> tor7: well, i was more thinging along the lines of: use a
text editor and grep ;)
16:15 < chickamade> nickjohnson: yeah that was a bit late
16:15 < chickamade> nickjohnson: only 1 day though :(
16:15 < uriel> rajeshsr: hehe
16:15 < tor7> uriel: but...but....  that's so much work!  :P
16:16 < tor7> and I'm a sucker for nice text layouts, like the godoc html
16:16 < uriel> tor7: complain to russ and co.  to have a cron job to update
the docs daily (but maybe they want to keep the docs in sync with the latest
'release'?)
16:16 < uriel> tor7: why not run it on your own local box?
16:16 < nickjohnson> chickamade: weird encoding, though.  :)
16:17 < tor7> uriel: I am, but I'm not sure everyone who wants to read about
go is ready to do that.
16:17 < nickjohnson> I would've thought interpreting a 'string' of
decimal-coded-base11 would be substantially harder
16:17 < tor7> just to get up to date docs
16:17 < chickamade> nickjohnson: it makes so much sense though, and it's
simple & easy to debug, (it's called prefix-free encoding I think)
16:17 < nickjohnson> That's prefix-free?  How so?
16:18 < chickamade> nickjohnson: not at all, you just divide by 11 until you
got remainder 10 which is the boundary
16:18 < chickamade> nickjohnson: because no base 10 number has the prefix
"a"
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16:19 < Whtiger> yay bytes.Add
16:19 < nickjohnson> I think it's just delimited.  'prefix free' means no
symbol is the prefix of another symbol
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16:20 < tor7> Whtiger: if you want more efficient slice manipulations, alloc
more data than you need with make([]byte, 0, 1000) and then you can use the len()
and cap() builtins and extend the slice when you're adding more data
16:21 < nickjohnson> chickamade: Just trying it with my interpreter now.
Got to convert your syntax first :P
16:22 -!- bennabi [n=bennabi@41.104.102.111] has joined #go-nuts
16:22 < Whtiger> tor7: yeah, I'm doing that.
16:22 < chickamade> nickjohnson: Wikipedia says unary encoding is
prefix-free, and my encoding uses base 11 instead of base 2
16:22 < uriel> tor7: I think people are expected to use the latest
'release', although this week might have been a bit weird because the tip has many
fixes, and there wont be a release until next week due to to holydays
16:22 < nickjohnson> chickamade: hm
16:22 < chickamade> nickjohnson: there are 11 symbols in base 11
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16:24 < nickjohnson> chickamade: I realise this :)
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16:27 < chickamade> nickjohnson: did the other fractran version finish
computation?
16:28 < nickjohnson> chickamade: Nope.
16:28 < nickjohnson> Sent you a PM about yours
16:28 < nickjohnson> It doesn't seem to run as expected on my interpreter
16:29 < chickamade> nickjohnson: PM at S0?
16:30 < nickjohnson> No, a /msg here :)
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16:33 < mico> how many lines of go exist today?
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16:39 < exch> oh right
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16:40 < exch> mt
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16:53 < Whtiger> Hm, how do I convert a byte array to a string.
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16:55 < exch> s := string(arr);
16:56 < Ibw> > str := "hello"; arr := strings.Bytes(str); fmt.Printf("%T:
%v", arr, arr); str2 := string(arr); fmt.Printf("%T: %v", str2, str2);
16:56 < rndbot> []uint8: [104 101 108 108 111]string: hello
16:57 < Ibw> Whtiger: Be careful with that though.  By using UTF8, Go does
not gurantee that one character = one byte.
16:57 < Ibw> ie
16:57 -!- tokuhiro_______2 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined
#go-nuts
16:58 < Ibw> > str := "hello漢字"; arr := strings.Bytes(str);
fmt.Printf("%T: %v", arr, arr); str2 := string(arr); fmt.Printf("%T: %v", str2,
str2);
16:58 < rndbot> []uint8: [104 101 108 108 111 230 188 162 229 173
151]string: hello漢字
16:58 < Ibw> > str := "字"; arr := strings.Bytes(str); fmt.Printf("%T:
%v", arr, arr); str2 := string(arr); fmt.Printf("%T: %v", str2, str2);
16:58 < rndbot> []uint8: [229 173 151]string: 字
16:58 < ukl> I'm a bit troubled with pointer/slice things...  Could someone
please have a look at the (working) code http://pastebin.com/d708908c7 and tell me
if I'm doing something completely stupid regarding the types and pointers?  (like,
wasting memory by copying something every time, things like that)
16:58 < Ibw> see?  three bytes, but only one character
16:59 < Ibw> ukl: German?
16:59 < Ibw> ukl: Which function has the questionably slices?
17:00 < ukl> Ibw: yes, german, there're no questionable slices, it's just
the first time I messed with []int types and make and new...
17:00 < ukl> Ibw: If someone just told me if this looks sane...
17:00 < Ibw> right.  Where exactly are you not sure if you're using them
correctly?
17:01 < Ibw> (PS http://gopaste.org
17:01 < ukl> Ibw: the example I looked at (the "type File ..." example in
efficient Go or the tutorial) used "func (file *File) Open (...) " where I use
"func (r QueryRangeObject) query (..)"
17:02 < ukl> Ibw: But from what I understood, []int is kind of like a
pointer, therefore I dismissed the extra *
17:02 < ukl> Ibw: gopaste seems to be down, unfortunately
17:02 < ukl> (internal server error, that is)
17:02 < Ibw> ukl: []int *is* sort of like a pointer (depending on what your
doing).  So usually, an extra * would be redundant
17:03 < ukl> Ibw: ok, so I got that, thanks
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17:03 < exch> a slice is a reference to an underlying data structure, so no
need really to make it a pointer
17:03 < Ibw> ukl: I'm still trying to figure out your code
17:04 < ukl> Ibw: it's just counting the occurances of the numbers in
"zahlen" and then adds them up so anzahlen[i] contains the count of numbers in
zahlen that are <= i
17:04 < Ibw> ya...
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17:05 < Ibw> well, as long as you understand slices..
17:05 < ukl> Ibw: in the end making the querys for "how many numbers in
[10,14] are in zahlen" as cheap as anzahlen[13]-anzahlen[9]
17:06 < Ibw> ah, and zahlen is an array of numbers
17:06 < Ibw> that makes sense
17:06 < Ibw> now let me check out what you did....
17:07 < ukl> well, it pretty much seems to work (havent figured out proper
unit tests yet tho)...  just wasn't sure about the pointer/[]int issue, so you
helped me a lot already
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17:07 < ukl> so, thank you :)
17:07 < Ibw> Oh, ok then
17:07 < Ibw> cool
17:07 < Ibw> glad I could help
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17:14 < mikedee_> are the built in functions documented anywhere?
17:14 < mikedee_> particularly the ones that deal with type casting
17:15 < mikedee_> i want to convert a string to a int64
17:17 < exch> s := strconv.Atoi64(123455678899645646);
17:17 < Ibw> ergh, was just about to post taht
17:17 < exch> err
17:17 < mikedee_> thanks :)
17:17 -!- ssmall [n=stuart@rrcs-97-77-53-108.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts
17:17 < exch> the other way around :)
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17:17 < exch> num := strconv.Atoi64("31313131313");
17:18 < Ibw> num, error := strconv.Atoi64(...)
17:18 < exch> ah yes.  the err
17:19 < mikedee_> is it just me or does type casting seem to be the achilles
heel of go?
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17:19 < exch> it can be a bit funky
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17:19 < uriel> mikedee_: uhu?
17:20 < mikedee_> sometimes theres a built in function, sometimes you can
use a type as a cast, v.(*D) typecasts whereas v.(D) checks if the interface is
implemented
17:20 -!- triplez_ [n=triplez@116.197.205.204] has joined #go-nuts
17:20 < mikedee_> int -> int64 = int64(i)
17:21 < mikedee_> interface -> D = v.(*D)
17:21 < uriel> they are different things...  I don't see the issue
17:21 < Ibw> I dunno.  Casting makes sense where it makes sense (i.e.  same
data types) and doesn't where it doesn't.  If it doesn't, use a function in the
standard packages
17:21 < mikedee_> go is supposed to reduce the complexity and time needed to
code
17:21 < mikedee_> I must spend 60% of my debugging time working out
conversions
17:22 < uriel> mikedee_: the v.(x) thing is used for interfaces the int(x)
thin for casts, and when converting to something else you use a function/method,
seems quite clear to me
17:22 < uriel> mikedee_: uhu?  why do you spend 60% of your debuging time
working out conversion?!?!?
17:22 < Ibw> But converting an int to a string with string(myInt), how is go
supposed to know what you mean?  Make a single character string with the unicode
character that corresponds with the int, or make a string with that int as a
string ("12")
17:23 < uriel> precisely because all conversions are explicit there are many
less hard to track down bugs
17:23 < mikedee_> v.(*D) is very different to v.(D)
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17:23 < mikedee_> then there are the built in string, int etc
17:23 < Ibw> I think you're making it harder than you need to, mikedee_
17:23 < mikedee_> then sometimes a type can be used as a function to ensure
an interface
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17:24 < Ibw> Are you coming from a high level language that actually lets
you make casts like that?  C, C++, Java...  they most certainly don't
17:24 < mikedee_> I am comparing to php where you can cast anything to
anything
17:24 < Ibw> ah
17:24 < Ibw> php
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17:24 < mikedee_> even javascript is more consistent
17:24 < Ibw> I don't think you should hold on to things that php lets you do
17:24 < Ibw> "consistent
17:24 < mikedee_> like garbage collection?
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17:25 < Ibw> Go does
17:25 < mikedee_> or speed of development
17:25 < Ibw> go is
17:25 < Ibw> those are two things that Go is fantastic at
17:25 < Ibw> well
17:25 < Ibw> garbage collection not so much, but it does have that
17:25 < uriel> the only php thing does fast is drive anyone into total
insanity
17:25 < Ibw> agreed
17:25 < mikedee_> thats just languagism ;)
17:26 < Ibw> heh
17:26 < uriel> mikedee_: no, that is just php
17:26 < mikedee_> I like C too but I wouldn't write a website in it
17:26 < mikedee_> nor would I use Go to write a OpenGL game
17:26 < Ibw> mikedee_: Did you see my point earlier?  By allowing all that
casting that you wanted, Go would have to make uneducated assumptions, and that
against the Go ideal: everything is explicit
17:26 < mikedee_> or PHP
17:27 < Ibw> nor would you use Go to write a website
17:27 < TenOfTen> why not an opengl game in go?
17:27 < TenOfTen> cause of the gc?
17:28 < mikedee_> I would imagine that the string() function would work with
anything but I understand thats not the case, but int64() should be able to work
it out?
17:28 < mikedee_> or the lack of bindings
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17:29 < TenOfTen> like i was told earlier today, bindings will come
17:29 < Ibw> mikedee_: Didn't I already say why it makes sense that it
*doesn't* work for everything?  Go can't read your mind
17:29 < mikedee_> but the syntax could be more consistent
17:29 -!- triplez [n=triplez@124.155.195.7] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to
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17:29 < Ibw> and string() isn't a function.  It's just the syntax for
casting to a string, like int(), or uint64()
17:29 < mikedee_> thats all...
17:29 < mikedee_> exactly my point
17:30 < Ibw> these are the only built in functions:
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Built-in_functions
17:30 < Ibw> and casting only makes sense where it makes sense, not where
you would like it to make sense
17:30 < mikedee_> but if I want to cast a interface{} to a *Obj then the
cast moves to the other end, ie v.(*Obj) NOT *Obj(v)
17:30 < mikedee_> but if I want an instance not the pointer, Obj(v) is fine
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17:31 < mikedee_> arrays seem to work too
17:31 < mikedee_> []byte(v) will cast to a byte array
17:31 < mikedee_> but I dont think v.(Obj) will cast
17:31 < Ibw> why would you cast an interface to anything?
17:32 < Ibw> Is it possible that your frustration stems from missuse of the
language?
17:32 < mikedee_> I thought you had to cast null pointers before using them?
17:32 < mikedee_> it is possible ;)
17:33 < mikedee_> Maybe a slight misselling and lack of documentation
17:33 < mikedee_> (I still think its great though)
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17:40 < gigatropolis> anyone on go team working on kerberos support?
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17:42 < Ibw> Probably not.  Ask on the mailing list.  There are very few if
any Go devs here
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18:01 < Ibw> It's amazing how a channel with 375 nicks can be so quiet...
18:02 <+danderson> gigatropolis: not to my knowledge.  Feel free to announce
intent on the list if you're planning to
18:02 <+danderson> Ibw: if there is nothing to say...
18:03 < gigatropolis> what level of developer would it take to make a
kerberos lib?
18:03 <+danderson> I can't comment, I don't know Kerberos well enough
18:03 <+danderson> if you're lucky, most of the crypto stuff is implemented
already
18:03 <+danderson> and there is nice networking as well
18:05 < gigatropolis> guess it might be possible
18:05 < Ibw> gigatropolis: It's worth a try
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18:15 < kimelto> morning!
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18:16 < jordyd> Good afternoon, kimelto.
18:18 < Ibw> Yes, it is very much afternoon
18:19 < kimelto> not in pacific time ;)
18:19 < Ibw> but just for you, kimelto, I'll say good morning
18:19 < Ibw> It's at least late morning, right?
18:19 < kimelto> yup, 10:21am
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18:27 < tav>
http://tav.espians.com/twitter-golang-list-go-mirror-on-github.html
18:27 < tav> =)
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18:30 < JPascal> Hello all!
18:30 < JPascal> Where I can find StrToInt(), IntToStr() functions?
18:30 < exch> strconv package
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18:31 < JPascal> Good!  Thx)
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20:17 < XniX23> banthar: you still doing sdl?  :)
20:18 < banthar> im focusing on opengl
20:19 < banthar> there's nothing interesting left in sdl
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20:19 < Ibw> heh
20:19 < Ibw> Did you do all the third party libraries?
20:19 < banthar> no, just base sdl
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20:21 < Ibw> tav: can people still contribute code through code-review using
your git mirror?
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20:27 < XniX23> banthar: keyboard keys support is not added is it?
20:31 < banthar> KeyboardEvent is done GetKeyState is not
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20:39 < XniX23> banthar: oh i see ^^
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20:52 < TenOfTen> banthar: hello!  great to see youre working on opengl.
have you looked into interfacing with glfw?  http://www.glfw.org
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20:55 < banthar> TenOfTen, i use sdl for that stuff
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21:00 < TenOfTen> ah, ok
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21:24 < Ibw> danderson: Is today a vacation day at Google?
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21:26 < uriel> Ibw: apparently yes
21:26 <+danderson> Ibw: it's Thanksgiving in the USA.  Googlers in the US
have a 4-day weekend.
21:27 < XniX23> so no updates for 4 days?
21:27 < Ibw> Cool beans (I'm in the USA, by the way)
21:27 < Ibw> XniX23: That's what it sounds like
21:27 <+danderson> well, hmm
21:28 <+danderson> our calendar only lists today
21:28 <+danderson> so maybe tomorrow is a normal day, except everyone is
taking it off :)
21:29 < Ycros> ha
21:29 < Ycros> danderson: so why are you still here?  ;)
21:29 <+danderson> Ycros: because there is a world beyond the US? :)
21:29 * danderson lives in Switzerland
21:29 < Ycros> oh!
21:30 < XniX23> i didnt know you can work from home for google
21:30 < Ibw> danderson: Does that mean that you speak German?
21:30 < XniX23> or do you have a small office or smth
21:30 < Ycros> hurr durr
21:30 <+danderson> XniX23: yeah, small.  450 engineers or so :)
21:31 <+danderson> Zurich is the biggest engineering office in Europe
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21:31 <+danderson> Ibw: in theory, yes.  In practice, no.
21:31 < XniX23> danderson: thats not small..  :o
21:31 <+danderson> fortunately, Zurich is sufficiently polyglot that I get
by with French and English
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21:32 <+danderson> XniX23: I was joking :)
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21:32 < XniX23> danderson: thank god, i thought my country is even worse in
that business
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21:34 < XniX23> anyone making a game?
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21:40 < Killerkid> ls
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21:41 <+danderson> Password:
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21:42 < XniX23> talking nonsense?  :P
21:42 -!- keeto [n=keeto@121.54.92.149] has joined #go-nuts
21:43 < exch> watching the muppets do Bohemian rhapsody :p
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21:46 < XniX23> hah
21:46 < kimelto> it would be nice to have something like linq in go :p
21:48 < Ibw> kimelto: Make it
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21:49 < kimelto> mmh its more complicated than creating a package, its part
of the lang design
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22:02 < olegfink> kimelto: a reasonable approach might be to implement a
preprocessor based on go/parser and go/printer.
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22:05 < sahazel> what does go use to build its parser?
22:06 < nbaum> yacc
22:06 < olegfink> there is a separate parser written in go.
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22:38 < KirkMcDonald> Hmm, found a typo in Make.pkg.
22:40 < halfdan> Keep it ;)
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22:50 < Ibw> KirkMcDonald: Where?
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22:53 < KirkMcDonald> Ibw: Line 125.
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22:54 < KirkMcDonald> Ibw: An unclosed parenthesis.
22:54 < KirkMcDonald> (I'm working on a larger patch to the whole thing,
however.)
22:54 < KirkMcDonald> (Well, not that large.)
22:54 < KirkMcDonald> (Introducing a couple of variables.)
22:54 < KirkMcDonald> (E.g.  GOFLAGS.)
22:56 < Ibw> Any map implementation in the standard libs?
22:57 < KirkMcDonald> There is the built-in map type.
22:57 < Ibw> oh
22:57 < Ibw> ...
22:57 < Ibw> heh
22:57 < Ibw> thanks, KirkMcDonald
22:58 < XniX23> kinda quiet today here
22:58 < KirkMcDonald> Well, it *is* Thanksgiving.
22:58 < KirkMcDonald> (In this country, at least.)
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22:59 < XniX23> oh right
23:00 < XniX23> KirkMcDonald, lbw since you two seem like experienced
programmers, any book recommendations?  (its can be about anything from algorithms
to theory) :$
23:01 < KirkMcDonald> Knuth's "The Art of Computer Programming"
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23:01 < nbaum> The Mythical Man Month.
23:03 < XniX23> thanks both
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23:08 < Ibw> um
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23:12 < gislan> is there any scanf-like function in go (like fmt.* for
printf)?
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23:27 < exch> not yet
23:28 < exch> I did fiddle together a nice multi-line string wrapping
function with left/right/center/justified alignment and margin support :)
http://github.com/jteeuwen/go-playground/blob/master/src/stringwrap.go
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23:30 < KirkMcDonald> Weird.  '6l -Lfoo' doesn't work, but '6l -L foo' does.
23:30 < KirkMcDonald> But '6g -Ifoo' works.
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23:30 < KirkMcDonald> Oh wait.
23:31 < KirkMcDonald> No it doesn't.
23:31 < KirkMcDonald> Blargh.
23:31 < dagle2> Never got why not have the space between the flag and the
argument.
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23:32 < XniX23> yes, its a lot more readable
23:33 < Ibw> hah
23:34 < ronaldbe> anybody know why this isn't working for compiling using
make
23:34 < ronaldbe> .go.6 :
23:34 < ronaldbe> $(CC) $(CCFLAGS) -o $@ $<
23:34 < ronaldbe> keep getting an error on a rule not existing
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23:36 < ronaldbe> full Makefile if anybody can help:
http://www.pastie.org/716607
23:38 < Ibw> ???
23:38 < Ibw> Why are you making a makefile like that?
23:38 < Ibw> Look at the makefiles in the standark package source tree
23:38 < ronaldbe> cause i have know clue how to write proper makefiles
23:38 < Ibw> then you will see how to make them work with go
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23:38 < ronaldbe> k, i'll check them out then
23:38 < ronaldbe> thanks
23:38 < Ibw> http://golang.org/src/pkg/fmt/Makefile
23:39 < KirkMcDonald> I need to write a follow-up to my blog post about how
to build Go packages to explain, like, how to actually use the make stuff.
23:40 < Ibw> mm, would be nice
23:40 < Ibw> What is the link to your blog?
23:40 < KirkMcDonald>
http://kirkmcdonald.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-compilation-of-go-packages.html
23:40 < Ibw> exch: Are you going to send it in for inclusion in the strings
package?
23:40 < KirkMcDonald> That post explains how to operate the compiler
manually.
23:41 < KirkMcDonald> Which is honestly not that useful, since as a rule
you'll be using the make stuff.
23:41 < exch> Ibw: dunno.  It would be a nice addition..  as well as a
simple Replace() function
23:41 < exch> which is in there as well :p
23:41 < XniX23> if im not mistaken, makefiles like that are very good for
large projects, or am i wrong?
23:42 < TenOfTen> KirkMcDonald: check out waf if you havent already, it has
no go support yet though, http://code.google.com/p/waf/
23:42 < Ibw> exch: I actually made one as well, though I realized that it
only works with ascii chars...  doh.  I did the same with an Insert() function,
but I fixed that and sent it in for review
23:42 < yiyus> KirkMcDonald: does it have any advantage over using
$(GOROOT)/src/Make.$(GOARCH) ?
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23:43 < exch> the Go guys know where my github is by now, so if they are
inclined, it's all up for grabs :p
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23:43 < Ibw> @eval e *[]int;
23:43 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near int>
23:43 < Ibw> @eval e []*int;
23:43 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near e>
23:43 < exch> I'm hesitant to send stuff in for review as I usually believe
other people can do a better job at what I write
23:43 < Ibw> exch: That's the point of review
23:44 < Ibw> If your code sucks, they tell you
23:44 < exch> yea I know :p
23:44 < XniX23> exch: whats your github?  :p
23:44 < exch> :p
23:45 < exch> the one i've been pimping in here for the past week or so :)
23:45 < XniX23> havent seen it :p
23:45 < exch> http://github.com/jteeuwen :p
23:46 < XniX23> oh you're that guy :p
23:47 < exch> yar
23:47 < exch> you make it sound like that's a bad thing :)
23:47 < XniX23> noo
23:49 < Amaranth> @eval var e *[]int;
23:49 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near var>
23:50 < XniX23> @eval var e []*int
23:50 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near var>
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23:52 < XniX23> exch: im following you now :P
23:56 < Ibw> huh, how would I make a slice of pointers then?
23:57 < idm> slice alloc'ed using make
23:58 < Ibw> huh?
23:58 < Ibw> I know that
23:58 < Ibw> @eval e := make(*[]int, 10);
23:58 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near e>
23:58 < Ibw> same problem
23:58 < Ibw> @eval e := make([](*int), 10);
23:58 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near e>
23:58 < Ibw> @eval e := make([](*int), 10)
23:58 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near e>
23:59 < Ibw> @eval type blarg *int; e := make([]blarg, 10);
23:59 < rndbot> <Error: syntax error near type, syntax error near 10>
23:59 < Ibw> > type blarg *int; e := make([]blarg, 10);
23:59 < rndbot> <no output>
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23:59 < Ibw> > type blarg *int; e := make([]blarg, 10); fmt.Printf("%T,
%v", e, e);
23:59 < rndbot> []main.blarg·1, [<nil> <nil> <nil>
<nil> <nil> <nil> <nil> <nil> <nil>
<nil>]
23:59 < idm> hmm...  donno
--- Log closed Fri Nov 27 00:00:06 2009