--- Log opened Sat Nov 28 00:00:26 2009
--- Day changed Sat Nov 28 2009
00:00 < Gracenotes> oh, Parsec based!  Parsec is one awesome library :)
00:00 < alexsuraci> indeed :D
00:00 < alexsuraci> hoping I can get this to be as flexible
00:01 < alexsuraci> very easy to build a parser so far
00:01 < alexsuraci> granted it's limited at the moment but they're easy to
tack on
00:02 < gnuvince> are there plans to make gotest work outside of $GOROOT?
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00:04 < uriel> Gracenotes: ?
00:04 < Gracenotes> search:golang.org gordon
00:05 < hstimer> Is there a magic print command for dumping the contents of
a data structure?  array, map, struct
00:06 < Whtiger> hstimer: try the normal print commands.
00:06 < alexsuraci> hstimer: fmt.Printf("%#v", foo);
00:06 < uriel> Gracenotes: damn, I thought it used to be in the faq
00:06 < alexsuraci> probably pop a \n at the end there too
00:06 < slashus2> gnuvince: Did you end up rewriting your starcraft game
parser in Go?
00:07 < uriel> Gracenotes: anyway, in the go source, go to: go/doc/gordon/
00:07 < uriel> (of course you could consider
http://glenda.cat-v.org/friends/ documentation, but that is not official ;)
00:08 < Gracenotes> > foo := struct{int;float}{3,4}; fmt.Printf("%v | %#v
|%+v", foo, foo, foo)
00:08 < rndbot> {3 4} | struct { ? int; ? float }{int:3, float:4} |{int:3
float:4}
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00:08 < Gracenotes> > foo := struct{x int;y, z float}{3,4,5};
fmt.Printf("%v | %#v | %+v", foo, foo, foo)
00:08 < rndbot> {3 4 5} | struct { x int; y float; z float }{x:3, y:4, z:5}
| {x:3 y:4 z:5}
00:09 < Gracenotes> uriel: heh, Plan 9's French logo is a Frog
00:09 < uriel> heh, that was the Apr 1st idea from a german friend of mine
00:10 < uriel> when Alcatel bought Lucent
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00:10 < gnuvince> slashus2: no; I'm finishing up on math classes to be able
to go to university this winter.  Although it would be a sweet project idea
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00:11 < slashus2> gnuvince: Still doing some clojure stuff?
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00:12 < gnuvince> slashus2: not lately; I haven't actually coded since I
quit my job to go back to school.
00:13 < gnuvince> slashus2: coded anything of note that is.  Still fiddle
around here and there, trying go and Scala and whatnot.
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00:18 < uriel> interesting: http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/277
00:18 < uriel> (specially the second half)
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00:46 < Method> anyone know why does go require an executable stack?
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00:51 < alexsuraci> Gracenotes: http://gopaste.org/view/sqzKw A bit more
robust now.  :D
00:52 < Gracenotes> nice and high-level
00:52 < alexsuraci> yep
00:53 < Whtiger> Is there a Go hilighting thing for Vim yet?
00:54 < rbancroft> Whtiger: yes, check the misc directory
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00:57 < alexsuraci> Gracenotes: too bad I can't do "parser := Many(Any(ltgt,
Parens(parser))" though.  guess that's one thing Haskell's parsec gets to keep.
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01:02 < Whtiger> rbancroft: oh hey, didn't notice that.  thanks.
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01:08 < Ycros> alexsuraci: oh fantastic, I was hoping someone would write
one of those
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01:09 < Gracenotes> > fmt.Print("%b", 1 | 4)
01:09 < rndbot> %b5
01:09 < Gracenotes> oh.  'f'
01:10 < Gracenotes> anyhow, 101
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01:39 < anticw> anyone here get golang-dev email?
01:39 < anticw> and if so, can you tell me if you got something about
archive/tar in the last few minutes?
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02:00 < fhs> anticw: no
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02:01 < anticw> yeah, i think maybe it's just slow
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02:07 < alexsuraci> hrm.  why do the various unicode.* functions take an int
rather than a byte?
02:07 < hstimer> is there a better way to get the pwd other than
exec.Run("pwd",....
02:07 < KirkMcDonald> alexsuraci: They operate on code points.
02:08 < KirkMcDonald> alexsuraci: Also, you can turn an int containing a
code point into a UTF-8-encoded string via string(x).
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02:13 < Zeffrin> > fmt.Printf("%s", os.Getenv("PWD"))
02:13 < rndbot> /home/mgruen
02:13 < alexsuraci> KirkMcDonald: ah, ok.  it just seems odd not to be able
to do e.g.  unicode.IsSpace(foo[0]) where foo is a string
02:13 < Zeffrin> hstimer: like that kind of pWD?
02:14 < hstimer> Zeffrin: present working directory
02:14 < alexsuraci> try cwd?
02:15 < Zeffrin> hstimer yah then os.Getenv("PWD")
02:15 < hstimer> Zeffrin: ah!  much easier, thanks
02:15 < KirkMcDonald> alexsuraci: In the context of UTF-8, it doesn't make
sense to ask if an arbitrary code unit is a space.
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02:16 < KirkMcDonald> alexsuraci: Note that iterating over a string with for
..  range gives the code points, not the bytes.
02:17 < alexsuraci> KirkMcDonald: so how would I go about getting the code
point at X offset?  is range the only way?
02:17 < KirkMcDonald> alexsuraci: There is also strings.Split(s, "", 0).
02:17 * alexsuraci should probably read up on his utf-8
02:18 < KirkMcDonald> alexsuraci: Which returns a []string containing the
individual code sequences.
02:18 < alexsuraci> ah, alright
02:18 < tor7> hstimer: os.Getwd()
02:19 < hstimer> tor7: even better.  thanks
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02:20 < Gracenotes> someone can modify PWD in the environment
02:20 < Gracenotes> well, they won't modify the environment, but rather Go's
copy of it that's accessed in Getenv
02:20 < Gracenotes> but I think Getwd does actually use a syscall
02:21 < tor7> some non-bash shells use $CWD instead, and $PWD doesn't exist
on windows
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02:27 < Gracenotes> hm.  it looks like the convention for connection-type
objects is to have a DialXXX function that yields them and connects at the same
time.  I think I need a separate method for each
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02:28 < Amaranth> Gracenotes: Why?
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02:30 < Gracenotes> Amaranth: this is not a connection that interfaces
directly with the OS: it does contain its own TCPConn, but also several pointers
to functions that users can define, essentially as callbacks
02:30 < Gracenotes> I think I might want to have several callbacks from the
beginning
02:31 < Gracenotes> not only those defined for the struct specifically,
which need to exist to ensure the connection fully goes through (and doesn't exit
prematurely with an error), but also perhaps by the user
02:31 < Gracenotes> to hook up these callbacks, instances of the connection
object are required
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02:32 < Gracenotes> perhaps I can still have a Dial function, but which
calls an also-accessible NewConnection function and Connect method
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02:34 < alexsuraci> Parsec-esque library has a github repo now if anyone's
interested in following: http://github.com/vito/go-parse
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03:23 < Ibw> the regexp package needs some work
03:23 < KirkMcDonald> It does.
03:24 < KirkMcDonald> I miss the lack of \s and so forth.
03:24 < KirkMcDonald> For starters.
03:24 < Ibw> and no lazy qaulifiers
03:24 < Ibw> *qualifiers
03:24 < Ibw> *quantifiers
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03:32 < Whtiger> urg, yeah, I'd love PCRE.
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03:38 < Gracenotes> just nothing context-sensitive, please
03:38 < Gracenotes> er.  or context-free
03:39 < Gracenotes> cough backreferences
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03:47 < hstimer> Quick clarification on Vectors and Arrays: array fixed max
size, vector can grow without specifing max size up front.  Correct?
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03:47 < KirkMcDonald> hstimer: That sounds reasonable, sure.
03:48 < hstimer> KirkMcDonald: thx
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03:48 < dagle2> hstimer: "The vector package implements an efficient
container for managing linear arrays of elements.  Unlike arrays, vectors can
change size dynamically."
03:48 < dagle2> Docs are great.  :)
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03:59 < hstimer> is absolutely everything set 0 on allocation - locals,
structs, named error return values
04:00 < hstimer> delete 'error' from above
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04:01 < Ibw> It's stupid that os.File isn't an io.reader
04:02 < anticw> you can make one with bufio
04:03 < Ibw> how so?
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04:04 < Ibw> wait
04:04 < anticw> does bufio.NewReader not work?
04:04 < Ibw> It doesn't even matter
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04:04 < Ibw> (bufio.Reader has the same issue as os.File, read doesn't match
the io.Reader Read() template
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04:07 < Ibw> actually, maybe not
04:09 < Gracenotes> matches it to a T, afaik
04:09 < dagle2> io.Reader is an interface that has Read(p []byte) (n int,
err os.Error);
04:09 < dagle2> seems like os.File has that.
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04:32 < hstimer> has anyone sucessfully called vector.NewStringVector?  I
get an undefined error even though I've imported "container/vector"
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04:48 < anticw> hstimer: it was removed
04:48 < hstimer> oh?
04:50 < anticw> you want something like: sv :=
new(vector.StringVector).Resize(10, 20);
04:50 < anticw> now
04:50 < hstimer> ah
04:51 < hstimer> is vector.New gone too?
04:55 < anticw>
http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=d52c4400bd9cae74a6374c4036b4b79ff41a7c29
04:56 < hstimer> ah
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04:57 < hstimer> I'm sure there is a very good reason to remove a
descriptive easy method with an obscure one
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04:58 < anticw> it's more idiomatic :)
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05:02 < hstimer> given that go isn't quite consistent, I think the proper
reasoning is that it follows the idiom go wants to have
05:02 < hstimer> which is fine
05:02 < hstimer> just irritating the web site docs are not in sync
05:04 < hstimer> anyway, thank you very much anticw, I thought I was going
insane
05:04 < hstimer> it didn't occur to me that they had change the lib....
should of though
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05:11 < h4xOr> hi, is there any NetBSD port for Golang available already?
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05:27 < anticw> h4xOr: no, but there is a freebsd port, that might be a good
starting point for a new effort
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05:33 < Ibw> why on earth was vector.New removed
05:33 < anticw> ask on the list, unless it was already discussed
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05:35 < Ibw> Nope, I've been following the list.
05:36 < Ibw> No discussion of useless function removing
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05:40 < anticw>
http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?can=1&q=294&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Summary&id=294
05:40 < sahazel> how can I get the ASCII code for a character in go?
05:41 < Gracenotes> characters *are* bytes
05:41 < Gracenotes> so if it's in the ASCII range, it will be a numerical
value by default
05:41 < Gracenotes> (if it's not in the ASCII range, it may be spread across
bytes, and you'll need a bit more to deal with that)
05:42 < sahazel> well, I have a one-character string
05:43 < Gracenotes> if it's from 0 to 255, str[0] will get its byte/ASCII
value
05:43 < anticw> not 255
05:43 < Gracenotes> oh, right, UTF-8 does need some signalling
05:43 < anticw> 127
05:44 < Gracenotes> there is precious little else it can use to know about
multi-byte characters
05:44 < anticw> if the upper bit is set you need to look at bits 5&6 too
05:44 < sahazel> aw
05:44 < sahazel> what I really want is a []byte with mystring[0:1] in it
05:44 < Gracenotes> you did say ASCII, though
05:45 < sahazel> but that seems to make another string
05:45 < anticw> sahazel: you want a byte or Rune?
05:45 < sahazel> good idea most of the time, but sad for me
05:45 < sahazel> I want a byte
05:45 < sahazel> I have data that I know is ascii, and I'm trying to get the
ascii representation
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05:46 < Ibw> ooh
05:46 < anticw> sahazel: foo[0] then
05:46 < Ibw> no no no, here's how:
05:46 < Ibw> wait, what do you want to do?
05:46 < sahazel> I have mystring, a string
05:47 < Gracenotes> get the ASCII value of an ASCII, not superascii unicode,
character
05:47 < sahazel> I want a []byte with mystring[0] in it
05:47 < sahazel> (and I know that mystring[0] is an ascii character)
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05:48 < Ibw> alrighty, um, why though?
05:48 < Ibw> is an int ok?
05:48 < Ibw> well, nvm
05:48 < sahazel> it's complicated
05:48 < Ibw> You can do that too
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05:48 < sahazel> if I had an int, I'd want to convert to a byte anyway
05:48 < Whtiger> strings.Bytes(mystring)?
05:49 < Gracenotes> > fmt.Println(strings.Bytes("界")); for i, c := range
"界" { fmt.Println(c) }
05:49 < rndbot> [231 149 140] 30028
05:49 < sahazel> Whtiger wins!
05:49 < sahazel> thanks
05:49 < Whtiger> woo
05:49 < Gracenotes> > "abcde"[4] - 'a'
05:49 < rndbot> <Error: ("abcde"[4]) - 97 not used>
05:49 < Gracenotes> @eval "abcde"[4] - 'a'
05:49 < rndbot> 4
05:49 < Ibw> hold on, typing something up
05:50 < Gracenotes> sahazel: note, str[0] is the same as
string.Bytes(str)[0].  exact same thing :)
05:50 < sahazel> yeah, that makes sense
05:50 < Gracenotes> a string is backed directly by a byte array, and it
makes no attempts to hide that (except when you're iterating over it, in which
case it'll give you proper encoding)
05:51 < Ibw> http://gopaste.org/view/icCPD
05:51 < Ibw> that might work
05:51 < Ibw> Haven't tested it
05:51 < Gracenotes> well, actually, it's not the exact same thing, since
string.Bytes copies the whole thing.
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05:51 < Ibw> ppst
05:51 < Ibw> psst
05:51 < Ibw> lookie at my pastie
05:51 < Whtiger> I'm assuming sahazel doesn't care about encoding >_>
05:52 < Gracenotes> it's so simple though..  str[0]..  which is what I said
10 minutes ago.  uggh.
05:52 < Ibw> that's not what I did though
05:53 < Gracenotes> uriel: are you there?
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05:53 < Ibw> Gracenotes: What you said would work if all the characters were
guranteed ascii
05:53 < Ibw> plus, I already pasted a solution!
05:53 < Ibw> argh
05:53 < Ibw> sahazel: Did you see my paste?
05:53 < Gracenotes> Ibw: sahazel knows that
05:54 < Ibw> ok
05:54 < Gracenotes> "I have data that I know is ascii, and I'm trying to get
the ascii representation"..  *-*
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05:55 < Ibw> oh
05:55 < Ibw> alright...
05:55 < Ibw> how disappointing.  I was so excited.
05:56 < Ibw> Then I think str[0] would work just fine...
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05:57 < Gracenotes> Ibw: awww.  yours does work...  maybe an even simpler
way would be strings.Split("", 0)
05:57 < Gracenotes> since, I have read :o, it also obeys UTF-8ness
05:58 < Ibw> woah
05:58 < Gracenotes> which, actually, *does* call utf8.DecodeRuneInString :)
06:00 < Gracenotes> okay there, keanu?
06:01 < Gracenotes> well, I finally have rndbot's source hosted :)
http://code.google.com/p/go-bot/
06:01 < Gracenotes> feel free to take a look..  I just need to contact uriel
about changing the pure Go projects link for it
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06:05 < codedread> i'm trying to understand how structs implement interfaces
06:06 < codedread> i have an interface Foo, and a struct foo that implements
the methods in Foo
06:06 < codedread> if i have another method that returns (*Foo) - can i
return new(foo) ?
06:06 < codedread> (the compiler complains)
06:07 < Gracenotes> hm..  you might want to keep them different names :)
06:07 < Gracenotes> *give
06:07 < Gracenotes> but that doesn't explain the compiler error
06:08 < codedread> they actually are different names
06:08 < codedread> cannot use d (type *fooImpl) as type *Foo
06:09 < codedread> oh, is it that it's a pointer?
06:09 < Gracenotes> codedread: the method names that you implement for Foo,
are they pointer or non-pointer?
06:10 < codedread> pointer: func (n *fooImpl) blah() string { return ""; }
06:10 < Gracenotes> try returning Foo instead of *Foo
06:10 < codedread> (if I understand you)
06:10 < codedread> Gracenotes: that works
06:10 < codedread> changing the return type
06:10 < codedread> so *fooImpl can be interpreted as a Foo ?
06:11 < Gracenotes> I'm not quite sure.  it's what worked for me in my
experiments, but I'm having a hard time finding where the specification says it's
so
06:13 < Gracenotes> I should probably add it as a potential bug
06:16 < Gracenotes> codedread: incidentally, what is the interface?
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06:16 < codedread> it's my own one (not one already defined by Go)
06:17 < Gracenotes> *nod* what is it?
06:17 < Gracenotes> type-wise
06:18 < codedread> ah, it's Node (as in a DOM node)
06:18 < codedread> maybe i don't understand your quesiton
06:19 < Gracenotes> I mean, the type of an interface is its method set
06:19 < codedread> ok - so you want me to paste the methods here?  :)
06:19 < Gracenotes> oh.  if it's too extensive, you don't have to.  I'm just
trying to resolve all this with the specification
06:20 < Gracenotes> "A variable of interface type can store a value of any
type with a method set that is any superset of the interface." "The method set of
the corresponding pointer type *T is the set of all methods with receiver *T or
T."
06:20 < codedread> ok, well there's only one method in my starter code:
NodeName() string;
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06:38 < Gracenotes> digging through the compiler source about interface
checks.  I think I'm finally at the checking method, but I think I yet have more
WTFs to utter
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06:46 < hstimer> Is this how you declare a map from string to vector of
strings?  map[string][2]string
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06:47 < KirkMcDonald> [2]string isn't really a "vector" of strings.
06:47 < hstimer> sorry, not vector.  array
06:48 < KirkMcDonald> Then yes, that's correct.
06:48 < hstimer> is this how you statically assign?  "amd64":{"6g", "6l"},
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06:50 < Gracenotes> hstimer: you need types
06:50 < Gracenotes> codemac: okay..  I've considered the specs.  haven't
looked to closely at the source.  Now the thing is, what does a pointer to an
interface mean?
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06:50 < Gracenotes> an interface is itself a reference
06:50 < KirkMcDonald> Gracenotes: An interface might contain a value.
06:50 < Gracenotes> what you've have to do is make the variable declared as
the interface, and then take a pointer from that
06:51 < Gracenotes> *take the variable
06:51 < Gracenotes> the type *Foo is itself not an interface, even if Foo is
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06:51 < Gracenotes> if Bar is a struct that implements Foo, then ******Bar
implements Foo.  But *Foo cannot be implemented
06:53 < hstimer> KirkMcDonald: I get an error with this: var m =
map[string][2]string{ "a":{"b", "c"} }
06:53 < Gracenotes> it seems unusual, but if you have an interface, what
you're saying is "I have an object that has some subset of this method set".  That
method set is accessible from any number of pointer indirections
06:53 < KirkMcDonald> hstimer: map[string][2]string{"a": [2]string{"b",
"c"}}
06:53 < hstimer> KirkMcDonald: ah...  thank you
06:54 < Gracenotes> that might be an object of concern, of course, if you're
casting from an interface
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06:57 < Gracenotes> although...
06:57 < Gracenotes> > var w io.Writer = &os.Stdout
06:57 < rndbot> <Error: **os.File is not io.Writer, Write(p []uint8) (n
int, err os.Error)>
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06:59 < Gracenotes> I don't think that should happen, according to the specs
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07:00 < anticw> sure it should
07:01 < Gracenotes> eh?  you might be thinking of the rule of only following
one level of dereferencing...  but this is about type-checking and method sets,
not selectors
07:01 < Gracenotes> oh, perhaps not.  "The method set of the corresponding
pointer type *T is the set of all methods with receiver *T or T."
07:02 < Gracenotes> shame.  scratch everything else, then.  it is orthogonal
to the selector rule anyway
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07:05 < Gracenotes> I'm not quite sure whether to think the type system is
seriously effed up, or an ingenious work of post-modern art.  or both.
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07:35 < BleSS> what advantage could have the go concurrency model vs to
using epoll() for asynchronous network programming?
07:36 < hstimer> easier to manage state
07:36 < hstimer> in go you can just block but still let a jillion other
things happen in other go routines
07:37 < BleSS> that's cool
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07:48 < sahazel> how do I make assertions in go?
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07:54 < KirkMcDonald> sahazel: Manually.
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08:25 < uriel> Gracenotes: now yes
08:28 < sahazel> hm
08:29 < sahazel> so I've written a package, and I'm trying to import it from
my main program
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08:29 < sahazel> which says "can't find import"
08:29 < sahazel> how do I tell it where to find the package?  (it's in the
same directory...)
08:32 < KirkMcDonald> sahazel: Pass -I.  to the compiler.
08:32 < sahazel> I tried that, it didn't work
08:32 < KirkMcDonald> The options must go before the filenames.
08:32 < sahazel> ah
08:32 < sahazel> there we go
08:33 < sahazel> thanks KirkMcDonald
08:34 < uriel> shoafb: if the package is in the same directory, you can do
import "./foo"
08:34 < shoafb> ?
08:34 < uriel> (and then you don't need to pass -I to the compiler AFAIK)
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08:34 < uriel> sorry, that was for sahazel
08:34 < shoafb> uriel: I think you mean sahazel
08:34 < shoafb> lol
08:34 < shoafb> but that is good to know
08:34 * uriel just woke up, and my little broken brain is not even fully on
08:35 * shoafb is possibly a little pissed on cheap wine coolers after a friends
birthday and thus does not blame uriel for anything :-)
08:36 < uriel> anyone tried this: http://github.com/mattn/go-gtk ?
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08:38 < shoafb> wow..  that..  might be the fastest port i've ever seen...
though i suppose go is close enough to C / C++ you could automate most of the
translation
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08:40 < shoafb> oh..  haha..  nvm
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08:41 < GuilhermeCunha> have package of IDE in Debian 5.0 ?
08:41 < shoafb> I thought it was done or nearly so...  source reveals
otherwise
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08:44 < KirkMcDonald> uriel: It is my experience with other languages that
it is best for the code to be completely ignorant of the details of your build
environment.
08:44 < KirkMcDonald> So something like import "./foo" seems like a bad
idea.
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08:46 < KirkMcDonald> See also this issue I submitted:
http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=347
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08:55 < uriel> KirkMcDonald: to me it seems like a good idea, anything that
removes information from your build environment is IMHO
08:57 < uriel> (one thing I love about the plan9 build system is that I
don't need to pass any -l flags to the compiler
08:58 < KirkMcDonald> You should be able to use the same code in an
alternative build environment without alteration.
08:59 < uriel> sure, and as long as the files stay together, it will work
09:00 < KirkMcDonald> As long as the compiled packages stay next to the
source, you mean.
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09:14 < peter-k> hi
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09:25 < uriel> hi peter-k
09:25 < peter-k> hi uriel
09:26 < peter-k> where are you from
09:31 < uriel> does it matter?
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09:32 < peter-k> it doesn't matter nuts
09:32 < peter-k> :)
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09:33 < peter-k> let's be crazy
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09:37 < halfdan> peter-k obviously is chinese
09:40 < peter-k> why?
09:40 < peter-k> why you say so halfdan?
09:41 < peter-k> hi hallsa
09:42 < peter-k> hi halfdan,you saw my address?
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12:00 < mythz> does anyone know how fast or scalable the http server is?  is
it competitive with nginx for serving static files?  does it scale well i.e.
handle a lot of concurrent connections?
12:01 < uriel> mythz: I doubt it can currently compare with nginx, but given
that golang.org runs it, it seems fairly good given how new it is...
12:02 < uriel> still, like the rest of Go, there is still much low hanging
fruit regarding both performance and functionality
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12:08 < ryniek> hi evrbdy
12:09 < uriel> hi ryniek
12:11 < exch> lo
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12:12 < uriel> hullo exch!
12:12 < exch> hey
12:13 < exch> gotta love learning a new code library.  I keep finding new
functions in the standard Go lib for all sorts of small tasks
12:14 < uriel> yea, it is quite impressive the amount of stuff hidden on the
Go libs...
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12:16 < exch> should I be worried about this?  http://gopaste.org/view/oK9JB
specifically the ToFloat() and FromFloat() bits in the end.  FromFloat() seems to
create some minor floating point rounding errors.
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12:16 < exch> it's only the red component that goes from 254 to 253 in this
case
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12:17 < uriel> hmmm...  not sure really, sorry
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12:24 < s_mosher> exch, you're doing multiply then truncate, right?
12:24 < exch> indeed
12:25 < s_mosher> I think you can get away with multiply, add .5 and then
truncate
12:25 < exch> the type conversion requires me to do: r = byte(floatred *
255);
12:25 < exch> mm could try that
12:26 < s_mosher> in practice add .1 will probably do it
12:26 < exch> nice.  .1 did the trick
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12:44 < andrebq> is there any project to make go talk to other languages,
like Java or python?
12:45 < uriel> andrebq: deffine 'talk'
12:45 < huf> json.  we done here?  :)))
12:46 < andrebq> fine, but json is the data format
12:46 < uriel> andrebq: again, define what you mean by 'talk'
12:47 < TenOfTen> "xml solves everything" ;p (sarcasm)
12:47 < andrebq> i mean something like sopa (but more lightweight)
12:47 < andrebq> *soap
12:47 < uriel> holy fucking christ!
12:47 < uriel> ugh
12:47 < andrebq> a thing that handle function calls
12:47 < uriel> andrebq: so, what problem does soap solve that json doesn't?
other than unemployment
12:48 < andrebq> hehehehe
12:48 < andrebq> soap was just an example
12:48 < uriel> soap doesn't handle function calls, it is really no different
from json-rpc
12:48 < uriel> andrebq: well, it is not a very good example
12:48 < andrebq> i know
12:48 < andrebq> well, something like java RMI
12:48 < uriel> anyway, there are protocolbuffers for Go, they will come out
together with the next public PB release
12:49 < uriel> andrebq: isn't Java RMI pretty much java specific?  that
would be like gob
12:49 < andrebq> yeah, again just an example
12:49 < uriel> (probably gob is more portable than RMI actually)
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12:49 < andrebq> i already worked with rmi, i just cited
12:49 < uriel> well, if all your examples happen to not really match what
you ask for, it is difficult to answer your question
12:50 < andrebq> i see
12:50 < andrebq> corba like functionality
12:50 < uriel> oh dear...
12:50 < andrebq> man, CORBA is a good example
12:50 < uriel> is anyone still insane enough to use corba in this day and
age?
12:50 < andrebq> old, but good
12:51 < andrebq> i don't mean to make corba for go
12:51 < uriel> good?  is there *anything* good about corba?  if so, this is
the first time I have ever heard such claim
12:51 < andrebq> i mean make something like corba to go
12:51 < uriel> andrebq: again, do you know what protocolbuffers are?
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12:51 < andrebq> no
12:51 < andrebq> never heard about it on go
12:51 * uriel sighs
12:52 < andrebq> i will take a look at it
12:52 < uriel> http://code.google.com/p/protobuf/
12:55 < andrebq> uriel, protocolbuf is what i tried to get
12:55 < andrebq> thanks
12:55 < andrebq> a sorry for my bad examples
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13:05 < dagle> uriel: There was a good thing with cobra, the name.  Truely
stated that it was poison.
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13:06 < uriel> dagle: hehe, indeed
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13:14 < uriel> btw, anyone knows if one can see all submited patches to the
go repo pending for review?
13:16 < exch> is there a way to make my types work with len()?  As in, I
have to implement some interface or something?
13:16 < uriel> exch: afaik, no
13:16 < exch> would be nice if I can make my custom collection type work
that way instead of list.Count()
13:16 < exch> bummer
13:17 < uriel> I don't think you can use len() for example on vectors...
13:17 < uriel> but I could be wrong...
13:17 < exch> havn't tried that.  Probably correct though
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13:18 < uriel> len(), like cap() seems to be specific to builtin types, and
IMHO that is fine
13:18 < exch> would be nice if len() just accepts anything that implements a
Length() int or Count() int method
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13:18 < JPascal> How to create a file of any size?
13:18 < exch> suppose that makes it faster, but still.  Go is all about
convenience :p
13:18 < JPascal> How to create a array of any size?
13:19 < uriel> exch: I'm not sure, then what would be the point?  why not
just do foo.len() instead of len(foo)?
13:19 < exch> because being able to call len(foo) creates consistency
13:19 < exch> which is something go is lacking in some areas atm
13:20 < uriel> consistence should never come at the expense of simplicity
13:20 < uriel> I think the current way is quite simple
13:20 < uriel> and not really all that inconsistent
13:21 < dagle> I tink it better this way.  len(foo) is the length of foo.
foo.len() is the length of what is inside foo.
13:21 < uriel> len() is not some abstract thing with arbitrary meaning, is
something that tells you the size, for example, len of a string is the number of
bytes
13:21 < uriel> dagle: that sounds quite confusing to me
13:21 < exch> that means len() becomes an alias for sizeof() really
13:22 < exch> which is not entirely accurate either..  string is a
collection of bytes
13:22 < exch> so in that regard not much different from a collection of
Foo's
13:22 < uriel> exch: if you have an array of Foo's you can use len() on the
array just fine
13:22 < uriel> (an array, or a slice, etc)
13:22 < exch> yup
13:23 < andrebq> JPascal, you could use a array of any size by using slices
13:23 < uriel> andrebq: I'm not sure of that
13:23 < uriel> all slices refer to an underlying array
13:23 < andrebq> yeah
13:23 < andrebq> so he can use a slice in a func signature
13:24 < uriel> ah, you mean that
13:24 < andrebq> but not to allocate the memory for the array
13:24 < exch> array can only have a constant size..  slices have arbitrary
sizes
13:24 < andrebq> yeah, i will explain this for him later
13:24 < uriel> I thought it was a theoreticla question regarding what limit
there was on the size of arrays, in which case the same limit will apply to
slices..
13:24 < exch> not considering the cap of the underlying array that is
13:24 < andrebq> yeah
13:25 < andrebq> so he can built or use a list
13:25 < andrebq> and pass inner array of the list to the function
13:25 < andrebq> something like that
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14:15 < yiyus> I got tired of writing the braces for one-line if/else's:
http://gopaste.org/view/0IqFP
14:16 < exch> :p
14:17 < exch> the beginnings of a preprocessor.  Add some #define and
generics to it ;)
14:17 < yiyus> nah, i hope to get rid of it as soon as possible
14:17 < yiyus> just got tired of syntax errors
14:18 < yiyus> in fact, i try to write right go code, but i cannot help it
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14:37 < exch> shame.  generics would be nice right about now..  recti.go,
recti64.go, rectf.go, rectf64.go, point2i.go, point2i64.go, ...  -.- zZZ
14:38 < exch> I'm inclined to try my hand at a preprocessor for this myself.
How hard can it be?  :p
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14:46 < mono_> does anyone know of a simple echo server example
14:46 < mono_> like http://www.python.org/doc/2.5.2/lib/socket-example.html
14:46 < mono_> but for go
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14:52 < uriel> exch: why do you need all those?
14:52 -!- tomestla [n=tom@78.251.247.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection
timed out)]
14:53 < exch> I don't /need/ em all at the moment, but it's just an example
scenario of some situations i've run across in other projects
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14:53 < uriel> what other projects?
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14:54 < exch> some work related stuff
14:54 < uriel> i quit using java before they added generics, but of all the
things I *reall* hated about java, lack of generics was not oe
14:54 < uriel> one of them
14:54 < exch> generics is one of the things I absolutely love about C#. I
really don't understand what you have against em :p
14:55 < uriel> they seem to make languages much more complicated, for a gain
I have trouble seeing
14:55 < exch> they make for better, safer and faster binaries.  Less code to
be written.
14:55 < exch> there simply is no downside
14:55 < uriel> specially in a language with Go's interfaces which are a work
of art
14:55 < JBeshir> That's a kinda dubious claim.
14:55 < JBeshir> "better" and "safer" and "faster" in what ways?
14:55 < exch> no type casting leading to potential crashes
14:56 < exch> lack of required type casting to a more general Rect class
needs constant (un)boxing
14:56 < uriel> exch: that is silly, I never had any crash from putting the
wrong type into a container
14:56 < exch> *-lack
14:56 < uriel> if you have a container, it is rarely ambiguous what kind of
stuff goes in it
14:57 < uriel> and if it is, Go's reflection and interface tricks makes it
even less of a problem
14:57 < exch> the type assertions required in Go make it highly unpractical
to have a generalized container
14:58 < uriel> there is no special magic to make Printf handle all kinds of
stuff, and again this cases are quite damned rare
14:58 < exch> not always
14:58 < exch> but in the case of rect/point stuff where you need to perform
calculations on the components, Go's system is not ideal
14:58 < uriel> Go already has a few containers in the standard lib, and I
see zero problems with them
14:58 < exch> you can't just add an int and an int64 without type assertions
14:59 < uriel> exch: then use one of the other, mixing box is just dumb
14:59 < exch> because those containers don't perform any operations on the
actual values contained in them
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14:59 < exch> exactly.  you prevent the boxing, you need explicit
implementations for each type.
14:59 < exch> which is what generics are for
14:59 < exch> *you=to
15:00 < uriel> if you have a container that performs operations on the
values contained, then build them to hold a certain interface which supplies the
required functionality to do those manipulations
15:00 < uriel> exch: again, give me a non hypotheticial example
15:00 < exch> right.  So write me one that does that on numeric types.  I
dare you :p
15:00 < uriel> one that does what?
15:01 < exch> the rect or point examples
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15:01 < exch> point.add(otherpoint); point.sub(otherpoint);
rect.IntersectsWith(otherrect); etc
15:04 < uriel> so, what is the problem?
15:05 < exch> the problem is that one has to write different versions of the
class for every type of value a point or rect can contain.  You can't go around
that, but you can have the process automated.
15:05 < uriel> but *why* would anyone want that?
15:05 < uriel> it is just silly
15:05 < uriel> pick a type, and use it
15:06 < exch> By automating it using generics, you will also end up with
only those versions you actually use in the code, instead of having all versions
included by default
15:06 < uriel> excesive gratuitous flexibility seems to be the root of most,
if not all evil this days
15:06 < uriel> exch: why do you need more than one version?
15:06 < exch> It just seems you are not completely understanding what
generics mean
15:06 < exch> that's not the fault of generics
15:07 < exch> because a general purpose graphics library can operate on more
than just ints.  it can require rects made of floats, or doubles, or longs.  or
bytes
15:08 < uriel> there are plenty of general purpose graphics libraries in C,
which do *just fine* without this silliness
15:08 < exch> fair enough.  I give up :p
15:09 < exch> Perhaps someone who can actually explain things better than I
can give it a go :p
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15:11 < andrebq> exch, in the given example one could use float for every
rect
15:11 < andrebq> since float can hold ints
15:11 < s_mosher> exch, I think interfaces can take care of all that with
the right set of access methods.  Though I'm not ready to say bad things about
generics.
15:11 < exch> that's a bit of a waste
15:11 < andrebq> more or less
15:11 < andrebq> since float and int uses the same space in memory there are
no memory waste
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15:12 < thebolt> andrebq: that last part is the important thing though..  ;)
you cannot exactly represent every int as a float :P
15:12 < thebolt> (the part about more or less)
15:12 < huf> yep
15:12 < andrebq> this is a point
15:12 < andrebq> really you cannot make all int as float
15:12 < thebolt> uriel: there are many c libs using only floats (or having
multiple copies of code, usually using macros to write common parts)
15:13 < thebolt> uriel: but templates in c++ or generics in other langs is
useful to avoid having to sacrifice precision and/or rewrite code
15:13 < andrebq> but we are talking about graphics, so probably floats is
what we want
15:13 < andrebq> no floats
15:13 < andrebq> *no ints
15:13 < thebolt> not always :P
15:13 < andrebq> but most of the time
15:14 * thebolt is also a graphics and game-physics coder..  ;)
15:14 < andrebq> when we need some int it's more specific
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15:14 < andrebq> so we can write the operations to int
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15:15 < andrebq> thebolt, usually the floats and ints are mixed in the same
"collection"
15:15 < uriel> if you want to handle every possible requirement imaginable,
you will always end up with a mess, no matter what
15:15 < andrebq> ?
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15:16 < thebolt> uriel: agree in principle, but somtimes some generality is
nice ,)
15:16 < andrebq> i am a big fan of the inheritance of the oo model (both in
modeling and programming)
15:16 < andrebq> but go has point
15:16 < andrebq> no long types hierarchy
15:17 < exDM69> but the problem is that most things by nature can't be put
into an inheritance hierarchy
15:17 < andrebq> so generality cannot be archived without types hierarchy
15:17 < exDM69> must of the time it's just to work around limitations from
the type system
15:17 < Am|Work> The API should use floats but the internal work should be
done using ints unless you absolutely need floats
15:18 < Am|Work> That's how cairo works
15:18 < andrebq> exDM69, more or less, in fact it's a problem of how to see
things
15:18 < Am|Work> Otherwise you're going to have crappy performance on most
ARM
15:18 < thebolt> Am|Work: then you loose both dynamic range and precision at
the same time..  great :P
15:18 < uriel> thebolt: sometimes perhaps, but you don't want to make
everyone that doesn't need it pay the price for it, again, where you want
generality, Go's reflection and interfaces are really powerful
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15:19 < thebolt> uriel: yea, i am not arguing for generics in go (yet)..
cannot say i have learned the lang well enough yet to have any oppinion on that
15:19 < Am|Work> thebolt: Well the idea is to make the API future proof but
optimize the implementation
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15:19 < uriel> thebolt: agreed
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15:20 < uriel> thebolt: I might even be convinced at some point that they
make sense, but all the people making it sound as if it is an obvious required
feature are IMHO not thinking very hard about what problem they are trying to
solve
15:20 < uriel> Am|Work: nothing is ever 'future proof'
15:20 < Ibw> If I originally pulled released from the repo, does that mean
that every time I run hg pull -u, I'm only pulling the latest release, and NOT the
bleading edge tip?
15:20 < tor7> floats in graphics work tend to end up with numeric precision
issues, deep down in the rasteriser all the code I've seen work with fixed
precision ints
15:21 < uriel> (and Go interfaces get you damned close to being 'future
proof', compared to pretty much any other language I know)
15:21 < uriel> Ibw: no, I think you are updating to the tip if you do pull
-u
15:21 < thebolt> tor7: that is usually for performance (software
performance, and chip-space when doing hw implementations), not numeric precision
15:22 < Am|Work> tor7: That too
15:25 < tor7> thebolt: depends if you talk 2d or 3d graphics
15:26 < tor7> stroking bezier paths for instance
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15:28 < tor7> and you don't want leaks when scan converting a general
polygon
15:29 < thebolt> sure
15:29 < tor7> performance is also a big reason though, just not the only one
:)
15:31 < thebolt> you can do non-leaky fp rasterizing also though, just that
you have to be careful with rounding modes etc
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15:45 < uriel> tor7: any chance to get Xrender working with xgb?
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15:48 < tor7> uriel: yeah, it compiles if you run the gengo.py script on
render.xml but the requests don't send the right opcode for extensions.  it needs
a bit of work but shouldn't be too hard.
15:50 < uriel> ah, cool
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16:38 < Whtiger> I'm thinking of making a simple bot in Go, and I'd like to
be able to recompile a command Go file, and then reload it without restarting the
entire bot?  (if that makes sense)
16:39 < exch> gio doesn't support runtime compilation the way you want it
16:39 < exch> *go
16:39 < exch> you can call the external compiler, but there is no way to
link the resulting binary into your program
16:39 < Whtiger> hm.
16:40 < exch> your best bet is to use a scripting language wrapper.  I think
there's a LUA wrapper floating around
16:40 < exch> hardly ideal, but the only solution i'm afraid
16:40 < Whtiger> hm hm.  okay.
16:42 < exch> if you have a nice plugin interface setup for your LUA
scripts, it'll do the job equally well, although I'm not sure how stable the
wrapper is atm
16:42 < exch> last I checked it was missing some parts of the API
16:43 < Whtiger> okay, thank you.
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16:44 < exch> CFunctions seem to work though, so interacting with lua
scripts is possible
16:44 < uriel> Whtiger: why not just exec yourself into the new version of
the bot?
16:45 < exch> that would only be nice if you could transfer the existing
connecting along with it
16:45 < exch> *connection
16:46 < Whtiger> yeah.  I don't want to restart the entire bot (connection,
etc)
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16:46 < uriel> hmmm...  don't fds stay open across exec?
16:47 -!- Am|Work [i=0c81f604@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Ping timeout: 180
seconds]
16:47 < exDM69> uriel: aren't fd's process-specific?
16:47 < exch> dunno.  May be worth investigating
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16:48 < Whtiger> I'm not really sure how to investigate that
16:49 < uriel> exDM69: ??  when you exec() you don't end any process
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timed out)]
16:50 < Whtiger> but you start a process which don't have the new fds?
16:50 < Innominate> i can't say I remember how it worked, but some muds
do/did just that
16:51 < uriel> Whtiger: the only way to start a new process in Unix is to
fork()
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#go-nuts
16:53 < Innominate> But it's essentially exec() and then reusing the old fds
16:53 < Whtiger> I have no idea how to see if I can do that
16:57 < Innominate> The basic idea is, create a tempfile which contains the
file descriptors and any state info for them, then exec() your program with some
flag to it knows it's being hotbooted so it can load the tempfile and restore it's
state
16:58 < Innominate> Whether not it's doable in go i have no clue
16:59 < Whtiger> I guess I don't know enough about file descriptors and
state infos in order to save them to a file >_<
16:59 < exch> that's what we have google for :p
17:00 < Whtiger> to ze google then!
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17:01 < Innominate> file descriptors are just integers, and state info is
just whatever you need to know about that connection
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17:03 < exch> I suppose it makes sense.  There is a reason why you always
need to explicitely close any FD's, Just closing your process won't do that for
you
17:03 < Gracenotes> uriel: oh, hi
17:04 < Gracenotes> rndbot's source → http://code.google.com/p/go-bot/
17:04 < Innominate> closing the process will close the fd's, but what exec
does is replace the current process with whatever you're running
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17:04 < exch> hmm
17:04 < exch> neat
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17:05 < Innominate> creating a new process is done using fork() then exec()
17:05 < Whtiger> Gracenotes: oo, thank you.
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17:07 < Clooth> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnx5hbb0vQI
17:07 < uriel> Gracenotes: cool, added a link to it
17:08 < uriel> Clooth: spam?
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closed the connection]
17:10 < Clooth> ?
17:10 < Clooth> no
17:10 < Clooth> just showing it
17:11 < Clooth> I apologize though
17:11 < Clooth> I didn't know amsg went cross-network
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17:14 < Gracenotes> uriel: I'm trying to submit some minor fixes, but
mercurial gives me "abort: HTTP Error 502: Bad Gateway".  grrrrr
17:14 < uriel> ugh
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17:15 < Gracenotes> okay, now it says Success \o/
17:17 < uriel> congrats :)
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17:20 < Gracenotes> uriel: if you like, you can also update the link from
the pastebin in Pure Go Code..  the IRC library is still viable by itself,
although it's compiled straight into the main package :)
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17:20 < uriel> ah, where should I link it to?
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#go-nuts
17:21 < Gracenotes> hm..  it will likely stay at
http://code.google.com/p/go-bot/source/browse/irc.go
17:22 < Gracenotes> every part of the bot has its own sort of module (or, I
guess, will have)..  some of which might make sense to offshoot.
17:23 < uriel> sounds good
17:26 < Gracenotes> I have one right now that prints an AST in
Haskell-ADT-like format
17:27 -!- Perberos [n=Perberos@190.49.60.203] has quit [Remote closed the
connection]
17:27 < Gracenotes> > t, ok := parser.ParseFile("", "package rawr\n"
"type Foo interface { Bar; Func() int }\n" "type Bar interface { String() string
}\n" "type Baz struct { A; bar B; string }\n", 0); fmt.Printf("%#v", t)
17:27 < rndbot> &ast.File{Doc:(*ast.CommentGroup)(nil),
Position:token.Position{Filename:"", Offset:0, Line:1, Column:1},
Name:(*ast.Ident)(0xb7...
17:28 < Gracenotes> which isn't so useful
17:29 < Gracenotes> so what I produce is slightly more readable, depending
on your experience with Haskell ADTs
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17:29 < Gracenotes> -> File {Name = "rawr", Decls = [GenDecl {Tok = type,
Specs = [TypeSpec {Name = "Foo", Type = InterfaceType [Field {Names = nil, Type =
Ident "Bar"}, Field {Names = ["Func"], Type = FuncType {Params = nil, Results =
[Field {Names = nil, Type = Ident "int"}]}}]}]}, [...]
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17:30 < uriel> neat
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17:30 < Gracenotes> which is just parroting, ignoring positioning
information, the AST, to see its structure better
17:31 < Gracenotes> I'm considering not including 'nil' field names, though
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17:38 < JPascal> When I parse template by package template and template
contain javascript I take a error....  (unmatched opening delimiter).  How fix it?
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17:41 < alexsuraci`> JPascal: it's because the template lib uses braces as
delimeters.  either change that (I believe there's a config for it) or bring in
your JS with a script tag
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17:56 < Ibw> vector.NewIntVector still work?
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18:03 < Gracenotes> does Vector still have that frustrating
capacity-must-be-entirely-filled bug?
18:04 < uriel> Gracenotes: is there an issue for it?
18:04 < Ibw> no, it doesn't work...  There was some discussion on this
before.  How do I make a vector now?
18:04 < Gracenotes> uh.  I meant to fill one out..  preferably with a patch
:)
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18:07 < Gracenotes> hm, is there still the bug where you can check arrays
for nil-equality?
18:07 < Gracenotes> > var blah [2]string; fmt.Print(blah == nil)
18:07 < rndbot> <Error: use of untyped nil>
18:07 < alexsuraci`> Ibw: new(vector.IntVector) I believe
18:08 < Gracenotes> > var foo, bar [2]string; fmt.Print(foo == bar)
18:08 < rndbot> <Error: invalid operation: foo == bar (type [2]string ==
[2]string)>
18:08 < Ibw> alexsuraci`: Then do I need to give it a size?
18:08 < alexsuraci`> they axed the New[...] functions, just use
new(vector.Foo).Resize(a, b)
18:08 < alexsuraci`> Ibw: yep
18:08 < Ibw> alright, thanks
18:09 < Ibw> what are the arguments in resize?
18:09 < Ibw> interface and size?
18:09 < Ibw> no
18:09 < Gracenotes> there is no size.  only capacity.
18:10 < Gracenotes> or you could say they're conflated
18:10 < Ibw> there is length and capacity.  Does capacity really matter
though?
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18:12 < alexsuraci`> Ibw: actually, not sure you even need to call Resize
18:12 < Gracenotes> the length may or may not be where the "last" element
is.  the capacity is always greater than the length
18:12 < exch> oh man.  I feel dirty.  I just came up with a way to hack on
templates with type constraints using Go's interface system.  It is an absolute
abomination though and I suspect Uriel will blow a fuse.  Rightfully so in this
case ;)
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18:13 < alexsuraci`> don't thiknk you do
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18:14 < Gracenotes> although..  looking at the source, perhaps it is
somewhat fixed.  :/ let me see
18:14 < exch> "type Point<T:INumber> struct { X, Y T }" does have
something magical though :p
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18:30 < Ibw> @eval make([]int, 10)
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18:30 < rndbot> [0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0]
18:32 < Ibw> exch: Why would uriel care?
18:33 < exch> he's vehemently opposed to anything template or generics
related :)
18:39 < Gracenotes> even if generics compiles down to interface{}s and
casts, the only difference being that the safety of the latter is ensued, I'd be
fine with it
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18:40 < Gracenotes> a more performant (is that a word?) generics system
might be nice, but..  well..  I suppose that should get done somewhat soon if it's
to be done at all.
18:40 < exch> templates are easy and clean to implement.  The type
constraints require a measure of extra code work to make them work.  Which does
mean making sure any types passed as T implement the interface specified as
constraint
18:43 < exch> it's all preprocessor work though.  The resulting code would
be no different than when written manually.  The point of the constraints is to
supply a compile-time mechanism to catch invalid type usage.  The problem with
that is that it becomes useless after compilation and will just be bloat
18:43 < drhodes> performant is a word, I've heard it spoken by more than one
person!
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18:45 < uriel> ah, C++ template errors are so wondeful!
18:45 < drhodes> speaking of generics, I found a paper detailing the
breakdown of between 6 language (importantly java and haskell) here:
http://www.osl.iu.edu/publications/prints/2003/comparing_generic_programming03.pdf
18:46 < drhodes> *of generics^^
18:47 < Gracenotes> uriel: C++ templates are performant, though :)
18:47 < exch> ah yes.  the errors are abysmal
18:47 < Zaba> so you want things to be zomg fasta fasta and programmers to
suffer?
18:47 < uriel> they are performant, yes, they perform masochistic rites
18:47 < Gracenotes> at the cost of binary size, and any sane attempt at
comprehensibility
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18:49 < Gracenotes> the operational semantics of generics, whatever they
are, should not negatively affect the denotational aspects.  In such an ad-hoc
type system like Go's, who knows if the latter is worth preserving, but, anyway :)
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18:50 < Gracenotes> there is so much you can get done without generics.  the
main exception being containers.
18:51 < vsmatck1> The template errors could be very nice in C++.  But
concepts were deferred until standard after next.
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18:51 < vsmatck1> Bad errors are not inherent to templates in other words.
18:52 < exch> it will all work fine without templates/generics.  The point
is just to reduce the amount of boilerplate on behalf of the programmer.  If done
properly, it can also reduce the binary size because instead of different
implementations of a class for any and all possible types, it will only include
those actually being used.
18:52 < vsmatck1> Also, you don't increase binary size with templates
automatically.  The programmer fully controls it.
18:52 < vsmatck1> Actually, I need to think about that last thing I said.
18:53 < vsmatck1> I suppose if you implement a generic container, for
example, in C in an untypesafe way you could use different types in a container
without the extra binary size.
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18:53 < Gracenotes> vsmatck1: I was talking about C++ templates
18:53 < vsmatck1> I don't know!
18:54 < exch> I think the bloat comes in with things like type constraints
18:54 < Gracenotes> when I said "cost of binary size".  As for confusing
errors, so much of that could have been alleviated by keeping typedefs around for
just a bit longer after compilation :/
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18:54 < Gracenotes> even if only for the sake of errors
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18:56 < blindmatrix> I have a fix for a problem regarding using maps in
templates, I've read the contrib documentation but I don't understand how to get a
reviewer, can I leave that empty or what should I specify there?
18:56 < vsmatck1> Are you familiar with the c++ concepts proposal?  It'd be
nice to have something like concepts but automatic.  So the compiler could give an
error like, "my_obj requires named function print() to be used with template" or
something.
18:57 < vsmatck1> And then it could also give you the line number of where
the specialization failed.
18:57 < Gracenotes> will concepts end up using a data structure for each
instance?
18:57 < Gracenotes> along the lines of the record implementation of
typeclasses in Haskell?
18:57 < Gracenotes> because that is a good solution, I think
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18:58 < Gracenotes> I am familiar with concepts as they compare to
typeclasses.  the syntax, not /as/ much
18:58 < vsmatck1> Naw, I think it will be only at compile time.  Concepts
let you specify what operators and named functions a class has to have to be used
with a template.
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18:59 < vsmatck1> I'm not very familiar with haskell type classes.
18:59 < Gracenotes> yes, the record implementation does use true dynamic
dispatch.  however, these dispatches are resolved if the types are definitely
known at compile time
19:00 < Gracenotes> on the behalf of the callers, that is; it's transparent
to the instance itself.
19:00 < vsmatck1> *reads up on it*
19:01 < blindmatrix> vsmatck1: Was the comment on concepts related to what I
wrote?
19:01 < vsmatck1> Naw, I was thinking about the binary size thing.  :)
19:02 < blindmatrix> Okay, that was before I joined then ^^
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19:04 < Gracenotes> vsmatck1: here is an example.  If you have a typeclass
AddSub, parameterizing on 'a', and functions that look like (in C-based syntax) a
Add(fst a, snd a), a Sub(fst a, snd a) plus a field Zero a.  Then, if Int is an
instance of AddSub, and you need Zero (Int) - 4 (Int), then you look up the
subtract function from a struct and the Zero value from a struct that contains the
three elements Add,...
19:04 < Gracenotes> ...Sub, and Zero
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19:05 < vsmatck1> ah, and that happens at run time?
19:05 < Gracenotes> if you know the operations will be applied to Int
specifically, you can include a reference to the global Int table.  However, if
you're not sure (it's just *some* AddSub a), you expect to have such a table
passed to you
19:05 < vsmatck1> In C++ I can't imagine a situation where it would need to
happen at run time.
19:05 < Gracenotes> the user doesn't have to deal with the tables at all
19:06 < Gracenotes> it's what typeclasses more-or-less compile to.  You'll
need runtime resolution if you're working with an arbitrary AddSum, not specific
one
19:06 < Gracenotes> which, as you know, is impossible to do with templates:
if it's not compiled for a specific type, it doesn't get compiled at all
19:07 < vsmatck1> In C++ you just end up getting a bunch of different AddSum
functions in your binary.  So I see what you're saying about binary size now.
19:08 < vsmatck1> In C++ it is compiled for specific types.  Hmm.
19:08 < vsmatck1> Those types may be polymorphic though.
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19:10 < Gracenotes> interface implementation it is effectively duck-typed in
C++.  You don't know if a type Int implements AddSub until you copy and paste Int
wherever 'a' appears.  The compiler might complain "Int doesn't have field Zero"
as part of 'normal' compilation
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19:10 < vsmatck1> Yeah, then you get the wonderful 70 pages of error
messages when your type doesn't support subtract.  :-/
19:11 < shambler> Gracenotes, yeah, thats why there is type classes in
haskell and they're almost got to the new C++ standard
19:11 < vsmatck1> Seems like run time checking would be a lot more flexible
and nicer for the programmer.  At the expense of some performance.
19:11 < Gracenotes> although the template analogy doesn't entirely hold..
for templates, you are accessing fields and methods that belong to a class/struct
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19:12 < Gracenotes> for concepts and typeclasses, you have functions
associated with some generic type, providing a more general structure
19:12 < vsmatck1> Run time checking would also increase compile time
performance it seems like.
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19:13 < mythz> is there a future language features roadmap or survey for go
we can vote on somewhere?  cause I think a lot more people would feel more
comfortable if they knew that generics and exceptions were on its way as I think
they are the only 2 major features lacking atm
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19:13 < Gracenotes> you just need a table lookup, since that is what
actually contains the functions.  Lower-level transformations may just reference
functions directly, so long as you know the type (no runtime resolution needed).
I'm not *too* sure about this Haskell-wise
19:14 < Gracenotes> and, it goes without saying, everything needs to be
typechecked, because you are applying functions to values blindly..  they need to
have the same type, which you ensure earlier :)
19:15 < shambler> ye
19:15 < Gracenotes> mythz: personally, I don't miss exceptions at all, but I
am somewhat interested on the generics front.  love to see what they think is best
for Go's idiosyncratic type system
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19:18 < mythz> well exceptions would make for cleaner code as it would lead
to a cleaner api and you wouldn't need the boilerplate error handling code
everytime
19:19 < mythz> but agreed that I would prefer generics over exceptions
19:19 < Gracenotes> try/catch is not much more boilerplate than if err !=
nil { ...  }
19:20 < mythz> you only need try/catch if you wanted to handle the error,
otherwise let it throw and catch/log it in the main loop
19:22 < Gracenotes> ah.  I do like having control over the call stack,
personally
19:23 < kimelto> morning!
19:23 < uriel> mythz: wrong, exceptions would be a mess
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19:24 < mythz> ??
19:24 < uriel> exceptions are like doing camefrom, control jumps around
randomly
19:24 < mythz> thats the first time i've heard that.  Exceptions cater for
the error path
19:24 < exch> I'm not missing exceptions really.  The only thing I was
looking for was a finally{} type thing, but 'defer' seems to handle that nicely
19:24 < uriel> plus apis become much more complex because not only they have
to declare their arguments and returns, but also what they might and might not
throw
19:25 < uriel> exch: I really like defer
19:25 < exch> ya me to
19:25 < uriel> simple, clean, effective
19:25 < Gracenotes> mythz: hm..  not quite all error paths
19:25 < uriel> wonder if there are any other languages with something like
defer
19:25 < Gracenotes> uriel: there are, but they occur in blocks
19:25 < mythz> when do they need to declare what they throw?  the return
value would not include an error code everytime.
19:26 < exch> it;'s the first time i've seen it..  Though it's a finally{}
block without the mess
19:26 < uriel> explicit error handling is the only sane error handling
19:26 < Gracenotes> like python's with.  which needs predefined defers for
the objects it operates on
19:27 < uriel> exch: yea, I often don't use finally in languages that have
it because it is such a hideous mess
19:27 < exch> :p
19:27 < uriel> Gracenotes: ugh, python's with is a mess
19:27 < exch> I do, but it could have been done cleaner
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19:28 < mythz> almost all go code i've seen requires the subsequent call to
check for an error code, log it than exit.  it would be a lot cleaner if you
didn't have to do that and with exceptions you don't
19:28 < Gracenotes> oh, try/finally came in handy the other day in Java.  it
was a reasonably clean solution, for the set of solutions likely available
19:29 < mythz> i think c# using/IDisposable is a much cleaner method of
cleaning up resources
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19:30 < exch> it is nice to have, but as you say.  it requires the class
implements IDisposable
19:30 < Ibw> mythz: You can mix the function call and error check into an if
statement, which is a bit cleaner
19:30 < exch> Just syntactical sugar for a a try/finally block though
19:31 < Gracenotes> well, the usage pattern around it.  the interface by
itself doesn't promote good practices.
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19:31 < Ibw> i.e.  if err := functionCall() ; err != nil { //bad }
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19:31 < mythz> which increases code readability and because its effortless
would make sure lazy programmers always use it
19:33 < mythz> lbw: yeah a little nicer
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19:33 < mythz> can u still deal with the return value in the above code?
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19:35 < Gracenotes> Disposable would be trivial to implement with Go's
interfaces.  But anyway, the idea of the runtime system taking over the call stack
seems bit unnecessary, and very often out of control.  How does the python mantra
go, explicit is better than implicit?
19:35 < Gracenotes> not to mention, "Errors should never pass silently" :)
19:35 < mythz> exactly, using/IDisposables still throw
19:36 < Gracenotes> explicit silencing in Go would be equivalent to giving
err an _
19:36 < mythz> but you want the program to quit
19:36 < Gracenotes> then panic
19:36 < mythz> and output exactly where the error was most of the time
19:37 < Gracenotes> > panic("omfg")
19:37 < rndbot> omfg
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19:38 < Gracenotes> or just os.Exit :) Anyway, if you get used to it, you
might find it's not such an odd way to do things at all.  I mostly work in
languages that doesn't widely use throw/catch mechanisms, and it's fine by me
19:38 < Gracenotes> anyway, shower -.- brb
19:41 < mythz> yeah so it requires a little more boiler plate.  anyways i
can live with error codes.  lack of Generics OTOH...  go collections help a bit
but when you need generics and don't have it the only real alternative is to code
for every required type yourself.
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19:45 < Ibw> It's so funny to see all the people around the internets
flaming Go, when they obviously haven't even looked at golang.org or written a
hello world program.
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19:46 < Ibw> They just say, oh this is stupid because there are already
programming languages out there, and they don't stop to think that maybe people at
Google know what they're doing...
19:48 < exch> the argument 'there are already plenty of languages out there'
really pisses me off.  I got that a few days ago.  Seriously, with an attitude
like that I expect them to still use assembly code, cos it gets the job done just
as fine as c/jave/python/whatever else
19:48 < exch> hell, punch cards will prolly be their cup of tea I suspect
19:48 < mythz> i actually go actually fills a niche quite nicely.  simple
native language with garbage collection and other nicities like support for
strings/collections/threading already the go programs are a lot nicer than their
C/C++ equivalents.
19:49 < shambler> those people don't like to learn
19:49 < uriel> Ibw: many people at google don't know what they are doing,
look at wave for example, on the other hand, to say that ken doens't know what he
is doing is a quite funny thing for anyone to say..
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19:50 < exch> the fact that Go has builtin support for unicode strings
raises it head and shoulders above any other systems program language
19:50 < Ibw> uriel: You're not a fan of Wave?
19:50 < exch> I love the concept of wave, but it needs a little work :p
19:51 < uriel> Ibw: I think just a few things are wrong with it: the idea,
the concept, the design, the implementation, the protocol, the user interface, ...
and probably a few other things I'm forgetting about
19:51 < Ibw> mm, I haven't taken a close enough look to have an opinion
19:51 < mythz> yeah i think wave is technically brilliant but have found
little use for it in day-to-day activities
19:51 < uriel> each of those things are in wave some of the worst examples
you can find in the whole software industry
19:51 < exch> example?
19:52 < uriel> anyway, sorry, offtopic again, and I get carried away by this
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20:08 < Ibw> man, I just forgot what my function did, and I wrote it half an
hour ago...  and it's really long...
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20:31 < exch> yay.  templates are working
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20:36 < alexsuraci`> exch: neat!  any samples?
20:37 < exch> I'll post some when I clean it up a bit
20:37 < alexsuraci`> alright
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20:37 < exch> it's not particularly 'best practise' proof though and has
quite a few limitations
20:37 < exch> I think this might even raise the term 'hack' to a new level.
20:38 < alexsuraci`> haha, at least it's something functional
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20:46 < iwikiwi> hi, im having trouble installing Go on osx.  At the end of
the building, the process seems to have hanged after --- cd ../test.  I don't "see
N known bugs; 0 unexpected bugs"
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20:48 < iwikiwi> the problem seems to be with top result: "34866- 8.out 51.9
17:50.87 1 0 21 17 176K 240K 400K"
20:48 < iwikiwi> which is in test/
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20:50 < Gracenotes> iwikiwi: if you can get ./make.bash working, the tests
don't matter so much
20:53 < iwikiwi> Gracenotes: alright, let me see
20:54 < iwikiwi> Gracenotes: thanks, my echo $?  returns a 0.  :)
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20:57 < bennabi> hello, how do you read from stdin ?
20:57 < bennabi> equivalent of scanf in C ?
20:57 < bennabi> syscall.Read(0, s) ?
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21:00 < jordyd> Is there a way to run a command via exec.Run() in the
background?
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21:06 < anticw> jordyd: go func() { ...  } ();
21:06 < KirkMcDonald> Starting a command with exec.Run doesn't block.
21:06 < KirkMcDonald> Unless you p.Wait() on it.
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21:18 < Ibw> can slices be compared with = ? if so, what does it really
compare?
21:19 < KirkMcDonald> "A slice value may only be compared explicitly against
nil." http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Comparison_compatibility
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22:00 < uriel> wow, just counted them, and there are now at least 27
libraries written in Go: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/pure-go-libs
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22:01 < exch> going well
22:01 < drhodes> here's a "generic" btree using type assertions, fwiw:
http://www.gopaste.org/view/Lo6sr
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22:07 < rajeshsr> hi
22:07 < rajeshsr> does go have an smtp lib?
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22:07 < timmcd> Hello!
22:08 < timmcd> I am wondering about two things: A) is there any
parser/lexxer libraries for Go yet?  and B) are Go's regexps decently speedy?
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22:09 < qbit_>
http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=b42108ef8a0b6b302221e245b22d417341b9c51c
22:09 < qbit_> :D
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22:09 < timmcd> So, yes, fast?  xD
22:09 < timmcd> ugh I should probably d/l the latest versions of Go
22:09 < qbit_> I can't really say ..  I just found that earlier today :P
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22:14 < JPascal> The Go have a SubString(start_pos,end_pos) function?
22:14 < tor7> str[startpos:startend]
22:15 < tor7> s/startend/endpos/
22:23 < KirkMcDonald> Note that the endpos refers to the index which is one
past the end of the substring.
22:28 < Gracenotes> and that getting the indices wrong will cause Go to blow
up
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22:47 < exch> Any sed guru's around?
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22:50 < yiyus> exch: just ask, there is ##sed too
22:50 < uriel> exch: I know a bit of sed, but I can't use my powers for evil
22:51 < uriel> and something tells me you are up to nothing good ;P
22:51 < exch> im tryin to make it replace stuff over multiple lines.  I've
figured out how to buffer multiple lines, but the actual matching/replacing stuff
doesn't seem to do much
22:52 < uriel> you should use awk or even better: sam -d
22:52 < uriel> structural regexps for the win!
22:53 < exch> probably yea
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22:55 < yiyus> exch: with sed/awk problems some example lines of i/o use to
help
22:56 < yiyus> it is not like if there was a command to replace stuff over
multiple lines (well, gnu sed probably has it...)
22:56 < exch> sed -r '1h;1!H;${s|/\*.+?\*/||g}' <- brain melts.
Basically the idea is to remove blocks of multiline comments.  so anything between
/* and */
22:57 -!- Zeffrin [n=zeffrin@203.141.132.221.static.zoot.jp] has joined #go-nuts
22:57 < poe> what if /* is inside a string?  "!$/*@#"
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22:57 < timmcd> Which would you people prefer?
22:57 < timmcd> http://gist.github.com/244689
22:57 < timmcd> or
22:57 < timmcd> http://gist.github.com/244692
22:57 < Zeffrin> > fmt.Printf("!$/*@#");
22:58 < rndbot> !$/*@#
22:58 < exch> In that case you're out of luck :p
22:59 < exch> sweet.  thius seems to work.  1h;1!H;${g;s|/\*.+?\*/||g}
22:59 < exch> *this
23:00 < exch> mm or not
23:01 < exch> weird.  It actually outputs both the unreplaced and the
replaced versions
23:01 < timmcd> are there any parser/lexxer/interpreter libs for Go yet?
23:02 < timmcd> Basically, language writing tools?
23:02 < Ycros> timmcd: what is that?
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23:06 < Zeffrin> http://github.com/vito/go-parse
23:07 < timmcd> Ycros tyvm
23:07 < Ycros> timmcd: eh?
23:07 < timmcd> rr, that was meant for Zeffrin
23:07 < timmcd> Zeffrin: tyvm
23:08 < Ycros> timmcd: I prefer the first url - but what is it?
23:09 < Ycros> timmcd: seems like too much stuttering going on in the first
one though.
23:11 < timmcd> Ycros: A regexp-based language me and a friend are thinking
of writing
23:11 < timmcd> even better than lisp for making your own languages/DSL's xD
23:12 < Ycros> timmcd: looking at the syntax - I doubt that already :P
23:12 < timmcd> Psh
23:12 < timmcd> Well, better for ME ^_^
23:12 < timmcd> We are still deciding on syntax
23:12 < timmcd> that's why I asked ^_^
23:13 < Ycros> timmcd: lisp excels so well at it precisely because of it's
basic (and prefix) syntax
23:14 < timmcd> Well, with this we want you to be able to define things any
way you like.  Thus:
23:14 < timmcd> (+ _ _) = |int a, int b| { return a + b }
23:14 < timmcd> or whatever
23:14 < timmcd> (+ 5 5) -> 10
23:14 < Ycros> aha
23:14 < timmcd> you can make lisp-like syntax if you like
23:14 < Ycros> how can you use return a + b if you've just defined something
using +
23:14 < timmcd> No, the funciton you just defined is (+ _ _)
23:14 < timmcd> no _ + _
23:14 < timmcd> *not _ + _
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23:15 < Ycros> and what does "1 + + 1 3" parse as then?
23:15 < Ycros> hmm
23:15 < sladegen> syntax error
23:15 < Ycros> it could /maybe/ work, but I can see you running into some
issues
23:16 < timmcd> 1 + (+ 1 3) would work, it would simplify down to 1 + 4, 5
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23:16 < hd_> + 1 + 1 3 ??
23:16 < sladegen> 14
23:17 < timmcd> I was thinking maybe just straight up regexp patterns.
23:17 < timmcd> "\(\+ \d \d\)" or "\d d \d" for matching (+ anint anint) or
5 d 6
23:18 < Ycros> timmcd: have you ever looked at meta-lua?
23:18 < timmcd> nope
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23:19 < Ycros> timmcd: it's lua, but it has support for compiletime macros -
so you can extend the language
23:20 < exch> gah O_o sed -rn
'1h;1!{/\/\*.+?\*\//!H;g;/\/\*.+?\*\//{s/\/\*.+?\*\///g;p;n;h};h};$p'
23:20 < exch> it actually works
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23:23 < timmcd> Ycros: Interesting, looking at it now.  Thanks!
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23:25 < Ycros> timmcd: I've started playing around with REBOL yesterday too
- it's based around DSLs and building them, it feels lispish but without all the
parens (due to its eval rules) - but I haven't gotten very far into it
23:26 < poe> exch another idea is to feed th ego file to gofmt
-comment=false
23:27 * exch sighs.  And you tell me this now?  ;p
23:28 < timmcd> lol
23:28 < timmcd> xD
23:28 * sladegen foofles
'1h;1!{/\/\*.+?\*\//!H;g;/\/\*.+?\*\//{s/\/\*.+?\*\///g;p;n;h};h};$p'
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23:28 < _paco_> disco
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23:33 < poe> exch sorry :)
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23:53 -!- eferuzi [n=eferuzi@213.236.150.122] has joined #go-nuts
23:53 < eferuzi> hi everyone
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23:56 < eferuzi> i am trying to get go running on Ubuntu 9.10 but on running
all.bash it get an error $GOBIN is not a directory or does not exist
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23:57 < kfx> eferuzi: what is the output of echo $GOBIN on the command line
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--- Log closed Sun Nov 29 00:00:15 2009