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03:35 < rd1> dho: ok.
03:35 < rd1> dho: Thought this might an efficient way to communicate.
03:35 < rd1> dho: So far, it doesn't seem to be.  :-)
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03:53 < rd1> dho<- I guess our physical threads are on different
schedules (GMT+0800 vs GMT-0500).  And no form of communications channel will help
with that beyond allowing asychrony.
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05:17 < Axman6> hmm, i expected more activity than this, given the number of
people here
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05:53 < musty> Ah, this channel went down a bit since I last came here :)
05:53 < musty> Probably lost all its hype.
05:53 < musty> but for those of you in here
05:53 < musty> what do you think of Go so far?
05:54 < crc> go seems pretty nice
05:54 < musty> why
05:55 < crc> reasonably clean, and close enough to C that I can understand
code written in it.
05:55 < spikebike> heh, yeah I'm pretty fond of it
05:56 < musty> spikebike, and what sort of things were you doing prior to Go
05:56 < spikebike> python/java like design/object oriented design
05:56 < spikebike> and C like performance
05:56 < musty> crc: and, you too.
05:56 < spikebike> I'm particularly fond of channels
05:56 < crc> musty: I mostly use C, PHP, and Forth
05:57 < spikebike> I started with pascal a long time ago, switch to C for a
long time, then java for a year or two, then python for similar, then go
05:57 < alexsuraci> musty: to be fair it is around 1 am where most people
are :P
05:57 < alexsuraci> in here anyway, as a guess as well
05:58 < musty> spikebike, what do you do with programming languages?  what
sort of programs do you write?  what field are you into
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05:58 < ziyu4huang> I am in EDA industry, only C/C++ used.  For hard coder
pursue for performance.  Go seems the only successor what can do most of C.
05:59 < ziyu4huang> I will call it " A modern C language".
05:59 < spikebike> applications, benchmarking, small tools mostly, some
automation for sysadmin type duties, others for design of clusters, and a pet
project that's a p2p backup system
06:00 < alexsuraci> i got my foot in on web development but have since
drastically veered into language design and relatively low-level stuff; in that
regard Go is very interesting, in particular interfaces and the other things (such
as goroutines) that it brings to the low-level
06:00 < musty> Is anyone into exploit-dev at all?  :)
06:00 < musty> spikebike, fun.
06:02 < ziyu4huang> The Go reduce the necessary for header, what a nightmare
in C. And header even goes worse in C++
06:02 < spikebike> yeah go is young, clean, and of limited use so far
06:03 < ziyu4huang> I don'
06:03 < spikebike> it looks promising, with more bindings it might be
generally useful
06:03 < spikebike> so GUI makes it pretty limiting
06:03 < ziyu4huang> I don't think it is limited use.  Many people still
coding in C only.
06:03 < spikebike> C has a GUI
06:03 < musty> what gui?
06:03 < spikebike> well many, but >= 1
06:03 < crc> go has fewer libraries than C
06:03 < musty> wait, what?
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06:03 < spikebike> a graphics user interface
06:03 < ziyu4huang> That's a framework staff.  Not a language runtime.
06:04 < spikebike> sure, but still important
06:04 < spikebike> languages live in a full ecosystem, and go's (so far) is
limited
06:05 < spikebike> debuggers, ports, GUI, devel tools, library bindings,
etc.
06:05 < ziyu4huang> Go just need a more complete CGO , take callback
C->Go for example.  Then the GUI binding to C/C++ will boost.
06:05 < spikebike> yeah some even really simple things in C go break
06:05 < ziyu4huang> That'
06:06 < spikebike> seems mostly a toy
06:06 < spikebike> I opened ticket #311
06:06 < spikebike> VERY simple program which flat out doesn't work
06:06 < ziyu4huang> that's why Go has gogcc , I think they acknowledge this
short-come .
06:06 < spikebike> works with the standard go
06:06 < spikebike> yeah gccgo is the one that my code doesn't work with
06:07 < Ycros> go is nice, but I don't think I'll end up using it if it
doesn't gain generics and a better way of handling errors
06:08 < ziyu4huang> I believe there will be due compiler for a short time to
overcome leacking tool-chain for native Go runtime
06:09 < spikebike> yeah progress is rapid at the moment, I'm optimistic
06:09 < ziyu4huang> Ycros: before generics, java still produce a lot for
production apps/frameworks :)
06:09 * Axman6 doesn't think he'd use go for GUIs anyway
06:11 < Ycros> ziyu4huang: yeah, I know, but it's really annoying not having
them.  I was a C# dev, and I experienced the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 (one of
the big things in 2.0 was generics)
06:11 < ziyu4huang> Personally , I hate generics in Java.  It introduce
generics just for safe and I have to pay alot of typing every where ..  just for
safe
06:11 < Ycros> but if you don't have them you have to surround things with
casts
06:12 < Ycros> so you're doing the same work, but the compiler won't help
you
06:12 < Axman6> if go could do 'generics' like Haskell, i'd be quite happy
06:12 < Ycros> Axman6: you mean like polymorphic types?  it's sort of the
same thing
06:12 < ziyu4huang> Well, I don't know what's the best.  That's why Go
haven't decide how to do generics , too.
06:12 < Axman6> but i doubt thaT would happen (or whether it's even
possible)
06:13 < Ycros> the question I think is how best to implement them
06:13 < ziyu4huang> I'd like Go have much better design choice.  Like
interface rather then vtable in C++.
06:13 < Axman6> Ycros: yeah, basically
06:13 < Ycros> because there are multiple possibilities.  IMO, you have to
do the casts in your code at runtime anyway
06:13 < Axman6> pattern matching would be a nice addition to go, but i also
doubt that will happen either
06:13 < Ycros> if you don't have them
06:13 < Ycros> yeah
06:13 < Ycros> doubt pattern matching will happen
06:14 < Ycros> I'd like to see exceptions or something like them as well
06:14 < ziyu4huang> If Go just provide java like generics and don't even try
to reduce typing.  I'd rather don't have generics in Go. :)
06:14 < Axman6> can help a lot with the reliability of your code
06:14 < Ycros> I don't think error returns is sufficient
06:15 < Ycros> Axman6: yeah
06:15 < Ycros> Axman6: I wouldn't mind seeing a Maybe construct :)
06:15 < Axman6> yes, i'd love to see a Maybe, and possibly an Either
06:15 < Ycros> and/or non-nullable pointers to go with it
06:15 < Axman6> yeah
06:16 < Ycros> but at this point, why not just use Haskell?
06:16 < Axman6> why not indeed :)
06:17 < Axman6> i can't really see that Go offers me much over haskell
anyway.  i can write fairly fast programs, and i'm not all that interested in
systems code.  but, it does interest me a bit
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06:19 < [[sroracle]]> erm
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06:20 < [[sroracle]]> when running ./all.bash I get the error: (after a long
list of compiling stuff) http://pastesite.com/12053
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06:20 < [[sroracle]]> after the last line it exits
06:21 < [[sroracle]]> I have bison, ed, make, gcc installed
06:23 < ziyu4huang> [[sroracle]] : what OS are you use ?
06:23 < Ycros> Axman6: there's a blog post demonstrating how to write linux
kernel modules in Haskell :P
06:23 < [[sroracle]]> Debian
06:23 < Axman6> indeed :)
06:24 < Axman6> you've got to be a little careful though.  GC + kernel code
= sometimes not a great combination
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06:25 < ziyu4huang> Axman6: I don't think there is strong reason to use Go
in kernel programming .
06:25 < Axman6> i'm not sure there is either.  thought there might be
06:26 < Axman6> i'm more interested in seeing it used in things like servers
though, which it seems perfectly suited for
06:26 < ziyu4huang> Kernel 's memory model is quite different in user space.
The "system programming" not narrow to write kernel codes I think
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06:27 < ziyu4huang> write server or database, I think that's why Google
invent Go. And that's what parts I intesting in .
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06:32 < spikebike> yeah servers/databases and the like seem a good fit for
go
06:32 < spikebike> or maybe app devel for chrome-os apps where the browser
will be the gui
06:33 < spikebike> after all even netbooks are getting multiple threads
these days
06:33 < anticw> it's not really about threads
06:34 < anticw> i've written a couple of (real, not toy) things in go ...
using go routines because it made something easier ...  not beacuse i needed
threads
06:34 < spikebike> yeah
06:34 < spikebike> goroutines are cool
06:34 < ziyu4huang> It's about performance.  Even you can buy more powerful
machine to run java.  Performance count's everything
06:34 < spikebike> I end up not passing things in the call, but instead via
a chennel
06:34 < spikebike> channel
06:34 < anticw> for example, rblcheck...  it needs to do 165+ async dns
lookups ...  doing this in in go turns out to be very easy, it doesn't create lots
of threads at the OS level, it doesn't needed to
06:35 < spikebike> I find channels+goroutines substantially faster than
spawning a goroutine for each
06:35 < ziyu4huang> netbook is something low power machine.  So, compare to
major heavy OS. It have to run everything simple yet faster.  Even compare to full
power latop.
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08:06 < anticw> has anyone here talked about a mime parser yet?  i checked
and it didn't look like there was any active work on that front
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09:37 < Axman6> so, has anyone use Go for anything interesting yet?  (i mean
you personally, i want to know what people are actually using it for)
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12:09 < spikebike> memory benchmark and mandelbrot set here
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13:21 < wm_eddie> Axman6: Give us all a little more than a couple of weeks.
13:21 < Axman6> wm_eddie: bah!  :)
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13:22 < Axman6> spikebike: sounds good :)
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13:48 < uriel> Axman6: actually quite a few things, see
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/go-code (and I'm certain this is a very incomplete list)
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13:53 < Axman6> is there some way to get Go to actually use multiple
threads?  i tried an example program, and it only used one thread
13:53 < uriel> Axman6: go will use multiple threads when needed
13:53 < exch> use runtime.GOMAXPROCS(2) ..  where 2 would be the number of
cpus/cores you have
13:54 < uriel> well, that is to use multiple cores, but even on a single
core go will use multiple threads if needed :)
13:55 < Axman6> righto
13:55 < uriel> and IMHO it is better to set the GOMAXPROCS env var than call
the runtime function, but I guess it is a matter of taste
13:56 < exch> true..  at some point the GOMAXPROCS call will be obsolete
though.  Go runtime will configure it by itself
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14:07 < spikebike> uriel ya, especially since gccgo goesn't have the runtime
function
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14:28 < uriel> hah, now we have people asking to remove multiple return
values!  oh dear, people are sure crazy!
14:28 < exDM69> and why is that?
14:29 < exDM69> what's their point of view?
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14:30 < melba> it's 'oh, i'm too stupid to make my own language, let's see
if i can cripple this one to satisfy my domain specific needs'
14:31 < uriel> exDM69: hard to know, I suspect their point of view comes
from taking some mind-altering substances..
14:31 < uriel> melba: indeed
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14:48 < jlouis> uriel: I want some of those mushrooms!
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15:04 < ziyu4huang> I just write a Go maker, it help you compile Go source
without Makefile . Check http://moogle-store.googlecode.com/
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15:26 < daed> this has probably been asked a thousand times, but is anybody
working on a windows compiler?
15:27 < Vova> http://korprg.blogspot.com/2009/12/go-compiler.html
15:28 < daed> oh sweet
15:28 < Vova> :]
15:29 < daed> are there any prerequisites for go-windows?
15:29 < daed> i.e.  cygwin?
15:30 < daed> e.g., rather
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15:32 < Vova> nope
15:32 < daed> awesome
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15:54 < ukl> <epoch>: fatal error: dowidth: unknown type: ideal
15:54 < ukl> huh?
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15:56 < ukl> http://gopaste.org/view/9ejlZ here it is...  nothing important
but I can't even imagine how this error message is related to it
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15:58 < ukl> (building latest sources now...maybe it helps.)
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16:05 < ukl> nothing changed...
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16:24 < Rob_Russell> i have a spot in my code where a C++ style destructor
would be handy
16:24 < Rob_Russell> any ideas on simulating that kind of functionality?
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16:27 < uriel> Rob_Russell: perhaps if you explain what exactly you are
trying to do...
16:27 < uriel> defer can be handy
16:28 < taruti> some kind of finalizers can be occasionally handy
16:30 < Rob_Russell> been looking at defer, thinking about rearranging
things so i use a goroutine
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16:30 < Rob_Russell> basically i have resource b that tracks information
about resource a
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16:30 < Rob_Russell> resource a has a rigidly defined interface that i can't
change
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16:31 < Rob_Russell> so i want resource b to hold a reference to resource a
and have that resource freed when a goes out of scope
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16:31 < Rob_Russell> (this is for godom)
16:31 < trost> weird error d'jour: invalid operation: int(b[i]) << ((8
- i) * 8) (shift count type int)
16:32 < tor7> trost: you can't shift with a signed count.
16:32 < trost> This fussing over the rhs type in shifts makes no sense to me
16:32 < uriel> Rob_Russell: you can't wrap a with embeding or something?
16:32 < Rob_Russell> uriel: tried that/doing that
16:32 < tor7> trost: 1 << -5 would make little sense
16:32 < JBeshir> So when you create Resource B, defer the destruction of
Resource A, I guess.
16:32 < trost> tor7 ok, that fixes it
16:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5e69S by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/ --
runtime: disable pointer scan optimization
16:32 < trost> still, n << -5 == n >> 5 in my book
16:33 < Rob_Russell> JBeshir: i think i might be able to do something like
that with a goroutine, that's the route i'm going to try next
16:33 < Rob_Russell> (after lunch :) )
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18:30 < leoncamel> hey, folks.  I build a go, and it seems it install into
"$HOME/bin/".  I don't want it install into that directory, so I delete all
executable program which installed just now.
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18:31 < leoncamel> Then, I set the GOBIN environment variable and try to
rebuild go.
18:31 < leoncamel> But, it prompt "clean.bash: line 16: gomake: command not
found"
18:31 < leoncamel> What shall I do ?
18:32 < leoncamel> I can not find that "gomake" anymore.
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18:39 < leoncamel> oops, solved.
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18:40 < leoncamel> I didn't add $GOBIN into my $PATH
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19:34 < kimelto> moin
19:36 < arnew> moin
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20:28 < Sungem> momo
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20:35 < clark_> Hello o/
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20:42 < andresj> hello, i remember reading about a replacement for C enums
in Go, but I can't find it again.  It was supposed to get rid of integer values
(at least for the end-programmer).
20:43 < arnew> iota?
20:44 < andresj> wouldn't iota defeat the purpose of not using integer
values?
20:44 < uriel> uhu?
20:44 < andresj> uhu?
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20:49 < andresj> hum.  i see.  i'm experimenting with a more Go-oey way of
implementing a GUI library.
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20:52 < uriel> iota is the go-oey way to do enums
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20:53 < andresj> uriel: seems like it.  I just really liked not using ints
when there really isn't a correlation between numbers and, say, window types.
20:54 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5eicQ by [Rob Pike] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- Make printing faster by avoiding mallocs and some other advances.
20:55 < uriel> andresj: you don't have to care if they are ints or if they
are foobars
20:56 < andresj> hum---maybe i should read a little bit more then---i'll
come back :P
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20:58 < Amaranth> andresj: Just do type1 = iota; type2; type3; etc
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21:01 < andresj> Amaranth: type WindowType int; const { Dialog WindowType =
iota; MainWindow; Alert; ...  } ?
21:01 < Amaranth> yeah
21:03 < andresj> Amaranth: i see.  oooh...!!  it's actually nto that bad.
although i did hear that when u have const it becomes possible to, say, const {
OtherThing int = 123; } and pass it to my function that takes WindowType.  Maybe I
just misunderstood.
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21:04 < taruti> although a more typesafe way would be nice
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21:10 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5ej0S by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
unexport Fmt.  it's not needed outside this package any more
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21:24 < Amaranth> andresj: No, if your function wants WindowType you can't
pass it an int without explicitly casting
21:24 < Amaranth> go is incredibly strict about types
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21:27 < andresj> Amaranth: hum, I probably read wrong, then :P Sounds like a
good solution, then.  Now I'm writing a system of channels as
events+changing-properties.  I'm trying to figure out how to drop all but the last
value in a buffered channel.
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21:28 < Amaranth> andresj: probably read until empty then stick the last
value back in
21:29 < Amaranth> andresj: And how, exactly, is this going to work with X11?
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21:29 < andresj> Amaranth: not sure.  I'm designing it as intuitively as
possible, so that I am nto constrained by other libraries.
21:30 < andresj> and then go back and think how it could actually work
21:31 < Amaranth> andresj: You're basically going to be on your own for the
X11 implementation
21:31 < andresj> Amaranth: what do you mean?
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21:31 < Amaranth> andresj: the xorg developers will laugh you out of the
channel if you go ask them for help
21:31 < Amaranth> and/or kick you out
21:32 < andresj> Amaranth: do you think so?  why, exactly?
21:32 < Amaranth> #xorg-devel channel topic: don't write a new window
manager or toolkit.  seriously.
21:32 < andresj> hahahaha
21:32 < taruti> you might want to look at e.g.  Haskell X11 bindings if you
are wanting to bind the X protocol
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21:32 < taruti> but X is much lower level than most apps want to go
21:33 < andresj> Amaranth: I just think that Go-gtk is too constrained by
Gtk itself.  i saw http://casper3.ghostscript.com/~tor/repos/xgb/.
21:33 < andresj> not sure if its actually X protocol bindings
21:33 < andresj> yes it is: "The XGB package implements the X11 core
protocol."
21:33 < Amaranth> ugh, don't copy Xlib
21:33 < taruti> andresj: how about, write a high level binding that uses
Go-gtk to implement things?
21:33 < Amaranth> or write a binding for Xlib, unless you're writing a
binding for GTK+/Qt and need it for that
21:34 < andresj> taruti: actually, that's what i was thinking in the
beginning
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21:34 < andresj> taruti: gtk as a backend
21:34 < Amaranth> If you're going to write a binding for X11 instead of
writing a protocol implementation from scratch at least bind xcb
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21:34 < taruti> andresj: that makes sense.
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21:35 < andresj> I think using gtk as a backend would make sense---apart
from the headache that it will be to make it work with goroutines and channels.
21:36 < tor7> Amaranth, andresj: XGB is part of Go now.  It's a port of the
XCB bindings to native go, no FFI required.
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21:37 < andresj> tor7: really?  nice.  Perhaps for a graphics library that
would come in very useful.  Although I do enjoy Cairo.  :D
21:38 < tor7> yeah.  it's very low level x11 stuff, but should get the job
of pushing events and images done.
21:39 < tor7> if you really want to write your own gui, I suggest you look
at IMGUIs instead of writing yet another object oriented widget set
21:39 < tor7> https://mollyrocket.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=10
21:42 < taruti> erlang has some concurrent functional GUI-stuff that might
be inspirational too
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21:45 < Amaranth> tor7: Does XGB handle XRender too?
21:45 < andresj> interesting.  IMGUI sounds like an interesting idea...  my
current idea was to initialize stuff in main(), then call `go dialog.Show()` which
would show the dialog with all it's widgets, run a loop to listen for user events,
and call it's children's loops (probably goroutines as well) to listen for user
events.  Then call user-specific goroutines in the way of `go
handle(input.ChangeChan(), label.ChangeChan(), dialog.CloseChan())` and t
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21:46 < tor7> Amaranth: nope, not yet.  XShm is higher on the priority list
though, for ShmPutImage.
21:47 < Amaranth> tor7: eh, XRender is the only useful part of X for drawing
things anymore
21:47 < Amaranth> it's the only accelerated part, anyway
21:47 < kfx> is xgb a c-style port directly from xcb, or is it idiomatic Go
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21:48 < tor7> client side rendering is the only sensible thing to do these
days.  that, or using an opengl context.
21:48 < Amaranth> kfx: It appears to be a mix, really
21:48 < kfx> hmm
21:48 < eulenspiegel> hi
21:48 < tor7> kfx: it's a "replacement" script for c_client.py that
generates idiomatic Go instead of C.
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21:51 < tor7> and, just like xcb, it really needs you to already know the
black arts of X11 programming to do anything useful
21:51 < Amaranth> hmm
21:51 < taruti> and writing X11 stuff is just stupid for most things, since
that is not very portable
21:51 < Amaranth> The real problem with using these things is random
threading
21:52 < tor7> it's more portable than writing for carbon or win32 ;)
21:52 * uriel wants xrender too
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21:54 < Amaranth> tor7: If you're going to do everything client side you
might as well use wayland :P
21:54 < tor7> amaranth: wayland?
21:55 < tor7> uriel: the source is out there, feel free to add XRender
support if you need it.
21:55 < uriel> heh
21:55 < Amaranth> tor7: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~krh/wayland/tree/NOTES
21:55 < uriel> well, the thing is, xrender should map well to exp/draw
21:56 < uriel> anything anywhere remotely related to freedesktop.org should
be avoided as much as humanely possible
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21:57 < Amaranth> uriel: uh, what?
21:57 < Amaranth> uriel: That's where all of xorg is hosted...
21:57 < tor7> uriel: as will opengl and client side rendering with shared
memory, with both more power, performance or simplicity, not to mention
portability.
21:58 < Amaranth> tor7: not performance
21:58 < uriel> Amaranth: xorg is precisely my point
21:58 < Amaranth> at least not for client side rendering, opengl will be
faster
21:58 < Amaranth> uriel: but you're wanting xrender...
21:59 < uriel> just the bits they lifted from plan9
21:59 < tor7> opengl will trump XRender any day :) and client side rendering
will have the benefit of not requiring a process context switch
21:59 < taruti> does opengl work over network?
21:59 < Amaranth> sure, AIGLX
21:59 < tor7> besides, I'm not sure exactly how much of XRender is
accelerated and how much of a performance boost it will net in reality
22:00 < Amaranth> sorry, Accelerated Indirect GLX
22:00 < kfx> that's a misleading answer, Amaranth
22:00 < uriel> opengl is awful, but not as awful as x in general, draw is
great
22:00 < Amaranth> tor7: for the open source drivers XRender is accelerated
very well
22:00 < tor7> opengl is much more awful than X, it's only 10 years outdated
instead of 20.
22:00 < Amaranth> for closed source drivers only a small part of it is
accelerated
22:01 * Amaranth likes Xorg :/
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22:01 < tor7> Amaranth: okay.
22:01 < Amaranth> Only so long as you use the modern parts of it though
22:02 * Amaranth tries to remember if ShmPutImage is even implemented anymore
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22:04 < tor7> Amaranth: ShmPutImage works quite well on all X11 servers I've
tried it on.
22:04 < Amaranth> I know some part of the shm extension isn't implemented
anymore but I always forget what part
22:04 < tor7> possibly ShmGetImage :)
22:05 < tor7> nobody in their sane mind uses any of the Get protocol calls
:)
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22:07 < Amaranth> no, copying from video RAM is bad
22:07 < Amaranth> s/copying/reading/
22:08 < tor7> Amaranth: wayland reminds me of
http://ghostscript.com/~tor/repos/quetzalcoatl/api.txt ...  yet another of my half
finished projects
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22:18 < Amaranth> tor7: except wayland depends on KMS and redirected direct
rendering (GL) to work
22:18 < Amaranth> linux-only things
22:19 < tor7> and quetzalcoatl never got beyond the prototype
server-is-a-vnc-server stage
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22:25 < andresj> is this valid?  var cancel chan bool; ...; cancel = make();
22:28 < Amaranth> andresj: can a chan be nil?
22:28 < Amaranth> If not I think you can skip the second line
22:29 < andresj> Amaranth: The point of my doing that is to check whether it
is nil inside a loop.  The first run of the loop initializes the channel.  Any
further run sends a signal to the channel.
22:30 < andresj> I figure if cancel { cancel <- true } else { cancel =
make(); } should do the job.  I'll test it.  :P
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22:31 < rthc> ls
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22:40 < Amaranth> andresj: you could check the len of the channel
22:40 < andresj> Amaranth: it wouldn't be initialized before though.
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22:40 < andresj> Amaranth: or are you suggesting I initialize it from the
beginning and check the len of channel in each loop run?
22:41 < Amaranth> andresj: Yeah, although that'll be slower
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22:41 < Amaranth> So it goes back the original question: is nil a valid
value for a channel type?
22:41 < Amaranth> I thought it would just implicitly call make()
22:41 < andresj> i think it is---The value of an uninitialized channel is
nil.  A new, initialized channel value is made using the built-in function make,
which takes the channel type and an optional capacity as arguments:
22:41 < andresj> from http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Channel_types
22:42 < Amaranth> ah
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23:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5eoqf by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ -- save
a few ns by inlining (which mostly simplifies things anyway).
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 07 00:00:30 2009