--- Log opened Tue Dec 08 00:00:30 2009
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00:01 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5fp8R by [Russ Cox] in 5 subdirs of go/src/ --
runtime: introduce unsafe.New and unsafe.NewArray
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00:01 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5fp8S by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/ --
runtime: don't touch pages of memory unnecessarily.
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00:04 < JBeshir> Whoo!
00:04 < JBeshir> Go Russ.  :P
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03:13 < nictuku> ah, now I understand how to implement an interface using a
simple type.  I got confused by the fact that you don't reference the interface
name anywhere.  Only need to add its required methods.
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03:34 < nf> /c
03:34 < nf> (sorry)
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03:49 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5fyA4 by [Russ Cox] in go/test/bench/ --
test/bench: faster fasta (mostly due to bufio fix)
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04:52 < robot12> morning
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05:09 < djanderson> Hi, I'm getting a strange error from 8l: mainstart:
undefined: main��init
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05:10 < djanderson> I can't find mention of it on google...here's the code:
http://dpaste.com/130621/
05:10 < djanderson> very small, any hints would be appreciated
05:11 < uriel> gnu coreutils?  *yuck*
05:12 < djanderson> just something simple for practice...  that's besides
the point
05:12 <+iant> djanderson: If that is your main function, you need it to be
in package main, not package dirname
05:12 < uriel> package should be main
05:12 < uriel> bleh, iant beat me
05:12 * uriel got distracted thinking about gnu coreutils ;P
05:12 < djanderson> heh...  OK thanks let me give that a try
05:13 < djanderson> ah, that was a stupid mistake...  thanks iant and uriel
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05:26 < jdp> is there any equivlant to rewind() for any of the buffered i/o
in go
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05:32 < runlvl> hdC1p
05:32 < runlvl> hello
05:33 < x41> =)
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05:47 < jdp> also why wont import find files in the same directory
05:47 < jdp> even when i do import "./packagename"
05:47 < skelterjohn> then something is going weird
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05:47 < skelterjohn> i've been able to do that with no problem
05:48 < skelterjohn> for instance, what is the package name and what is the
actual file name sitting in the directory?
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05:48 < jdp> parser.go, package name package
05:48 < jdp> import statement import "./parser"
05:48 < jdp> err package name parser
05:49 < skelterjohn> ah, i see
05:49 < skelterjohn> you need to compile the package separately first, i
think
05:49 < skelterjohn> there may be ways around this, but "6g parser.go"
should create parser.6
05:49 < skelterjohn> if that file is available, i think import "./parser"
should work
05:49 < jdp> aha
05:49 < jdp> thank
05:52 < Amaranth> you can just pass all your files to 6g at the same time
too
05:52 < Amaranth> jdp, skelterjohn: ^
05:52 < jdp> yeah the problem was i forgot to put parser.go in the makefile
haha
05:52 < skelterjohn> that'll do it too
05:53 < skelterjohn> wasn't sure if separate packages needed to be compiled
separately
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06:01 < jdp> hmm including make.cmd isnt what i want from goroot
06:01 < jdp> i know the style is to include two makefiles, which one is the
second one?
06:01 < jdp> or do i not put packages in $(GOFILES), they go in a separate
variable?
06:02 < jdp> http://www.gopaste.net/?id=1543
06:02 < jdp> thats what the makefile looks like now, but its putting
everything into _go_.8
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06:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5fEs2 by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- 6l, 8l: make string buffer big enough for 8 chars (and then some)
06:06 < skelterjohn> That makefile is for compiling packages
06:07 < jdp> i thought make.pkg was for compiling packages?
06:07 < skelterjohn> oh
06:07 < skelterjohn> misread
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06:08 < skelterjohn> it's putting things into _go_.8, and then linking it to
goforth right?
06:08 < jdp> yeah
06:08 < skelterjohn> what do you expect to happen?
06:08 < jdp> i want everything to be put into <filename>.8
06:08 < jdp> and then link all the .8s into an executable
06:09 < skelterjohn> well, for that i think you'd need to write your own
makefile
06:09 < skelterjohn> why do you want things to be in their own .8s?
06:10 < jdp> so i can use import to import files in the same directory lol
06:10 < jdp> otherwise it doesnt work
06:10 < jdp> ill just go back to my handwritten one
06:10 < skelterjohn> i see
06:11 < skelterjohn> i think two makefiles is the way to do it, probably,
unless you make your own
06:13 < jdp> i got one that works
06:15 < jdp> http://www.gopaste.org/view/3E517
06:15 < jdp> i guess this is just the way to do it
06:15 < jdp> i was just assuming there was a more "go" way to do it
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06:17 < skelterjohn> I am not a fan of make.
06:17 < skelterjohn> But nor am I the person to create a replacement.  And
so I complain.
06:18 < Gracenotes> make is pretty good if you know that all of the
dependencies are satisfied.  I think.
06:19 < jdp> is there a go based alternative yet though?
06:19 < jdp> i guess i could install plan9port and use mk
06:20 < skelterjohn> I saw some activity on go-nuts about go code to extract
dependency information from objects.  or source.  or something.
06:21 < skelterjohn> that mailing list is being wonky for me right now...the
first two threads aren't behaving.  the first one (goroutine question) I can only
see the first post, despite having replied
06:21 < skelterjohn> the second one (go for) i can't see the last post -
when I go to the 2nd page of posts it tells me the thread is empty
06:21 < skelterjohn> irritating
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07:21 < jdp> is there any way to use arrays inside a const block?
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07:26 < drhodes> skerner: ziyu4huang made this ->
http://moogle-store.googlecode.com/ , for making projects without needing a
Makefile
07:26 < drhodes> oops, skelterjohn ^^^ but he left.
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09:23 < rog> hey, does anyone know if it's possible to create an array from
a slice?  i.e.  if i've got x := []int{1,2,3,4}; and i want to create y of type
[4]int pointing to the same underlying data?
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09:38 < jessta> rog: I imagine you'd have to copy it
09:39 < rog> useful if you didn't though.  (and maybe feasible too)
09:39 < jessta> a slice doesn't know where it is pointing to in an array
09:40 < rog> jessta: why does it matter?
09:41 < rog> an array is only a pointer
09:41 < jessta> nah, an array is an array
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09:41 < rog> but you can make an array into a slice without copying it
09:41 < rog> why not the other way around?
09:42 < jessta> a slice is a pointer
09:42 < jessta> an array is a value type
09:42 < rog> oh, sorry, i actually meant "i want to create y of type *[4]
int"
09:43 < rog> which is also a pointer
09:43 < jessta> why do you want a pointer to an array that isn't a slice?
09:44 < rog> because then you can do lookups into it without needing to
range-check
09:44 < rog> (as long as you're using a constant expr as the index)
09:44 < jessta> sounds..unsafe
09:44 < rog> it's not unsafe at all
09:45 < rog> the range check is done all at once when you take the initial
slice
09:46 < rog> here's an example of the kind of code it could speed up:
http://codereview.appspot.com/164056/patch/2002/2006
09:46 < rog> note rob's comment
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09:55 < rog> do you see what i mean now?
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10:17 < jessta> rog: I see what you mean, but I doubt it's doable
10:17 < rog> why not?  i don't think it requires any runtime support at all
10:18 < jessta> rog: slicing is runtime
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10:19 < rog> yes, but if you verify at runtime that the slice is big enough
(which you do by taking a slice of a given size) then you know your array is big
enough.  it's just like losing the len and cap fields from the slice.
10:19 < rog> (the len field becomes implicit)
10:20 < jessta> you're casting between different types at runtime
10:20 < jessta> anyway, dinner time
10:21 < rog> that's fine - just like casting from array to slice (which is
fine)
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10:35 < JPascal> Hello all!
10:35 < JPascal> I have a question.
10:36 < JPascal> How I can do in JSON syntax in package template?  {.section
StoreTypeSelected=Value}
10:36 < JPascal> I took error: name not found: StoreTypeSelected=Value
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10:44 < jessta> rog: the question is not whether you know, the question is
whether the compiler knows
10:46 < jessta> rog: does the compiler know at compile time what size this
slice is?  can it?
10:46 < rog> yup, if you restrict the slice to constant-expression indices
10:47 < rog> i.e.  the compiler can statically know that the size of x[3:7]
is 4
10:47 < rog> because both 3 and 7 are constant expressions
10:47 < jessta> yeah, it's possible, but does it?
10:47 < rog> not currently, but i don't think it would be too hard to teach
it
10:48 < jessta> does it know that 3 and 7 are valid indices?
10:48 < jessta> at compile time
10:49 < rog> no.  but if they aren't then the slice will fail (and the
program will crash).  so it knows that if the slice has succeeded that it has the
given size.
10:49 < rog> just like the n.(T) notation
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10:59 < rog> actually, that makes me think of a possibility for a syntax
which makes it more obvious: a.[3:7] could take the slice and return a pointer to
an array type.
11:01 < jessta> actually, what does an array data structure look like in go?
11:02 < jessta> it contains the size yeah?
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11:05 < jessta> I guess it doesn't
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11:08 < jessta> rog: if you had an array that was part of the array backing
a slice and you sliced that array
11:10 < jessta> actually, ignore that
11:11 < JPascal> How I cat compare two values in template using package
"template"?
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15:03 < rog> is this actually working?
15:03 < dho> nope, sorry rog
15:03 < dho> the world is broken
15:04 < rog> good to see
15:04 < skelterjohn> good morning
15:04 < rog> afternoon
15:04 < dho> morning
15:04 < jessta> hi
15:04 < jessta> morning
15:04 < rog> no, i'm totally sure it's afternoon
15:05 < jessta> it's always morning
15:05 < rog> it's always afternoon!
15:05 < jessta> no you!
15:05 < jessta> :P
15:05 < jessta> acme is kind of weird
15:06 < rog> it's great when you get used to it
15:06 < jessta> the most iritating thing I trying to get over the the lack
of ability to move up and down lines with the keyboard
15:07 <+danderson> it is actually always morning when greeting on irc, by
definition
15:07 <+danderson> see http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
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15:13 < rog> nice
15:13 < rog> jessta: the best thing about it is that it makes the mouse so
much more powerful than the keyboard
15:15 < jessta> rog: yeah, I need a better mouse
15:15 < dho> rog: The thing that I hate about acme is that the areas where I
have to point the mouse to do anything useful are so goddamn small.
15:16 < dho> I miss them pointing at least 1/3 times.
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15:16 < rog> you get better (or i did, certainly)
15:17 < dho> I never can get it.
15:17 < jessta> I've got a laptop with a trackpad and 2 buttons with 3
button emulation, so I miss out on a lot
15:17 < rog> i only rarely use middle- or right-button sweep - i usually
select with left button first (doesn't matter if you get it wrong) and then middle
click
15:17 < rog> (that is, for clicks that won't be expanded correctly with the
default rules)
15:17 < rog> jessta: yes, you need a proper mouse
15:18 < rog> jessta: or a thinkpad with a nipple and three buttons, which i
used for years and worked well
15:18 < jessta> ah, that's a good idea
15:19 < jessta> I'd rather not have an external mouse, makes it kind of
difficult to code in bed
15:20 < dho> i have trouble with thinkpad pointers too :(
15:20 * dho has an x40 with plan 9 and openbsd installed
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15:22 < mpl> I find that I need a wheel more than I need 2+1 chording
15:23 < mpl> but I can't live without 1+2 and 1+3 chording now
15:23 < dho> I also hate middle clicking Font (which is nonexistant by
default) on the title bar every time I make a new window for code
15:23 < mpl> dho: then just start acme with the right Font ?
15:23 < alexsuraci`> the mouse cursor on my t400 keeps drifting
15:24 < alexsuraci`> it's incredibly annoying, i have to combat it with the
little nub
15:24 < mpl> alexsuraci`: it stops drifting quickly if you release it
15:24 < alexsuraci`> if my thumb is hovering over the trackpad or something
it'll think i'm touching it
15:24 < dho> mpl: I like the variable width font for most of the other
displays.
15:24 < mpl> it auto corrects itself
15:24 < mpl> oh, the trackpad, I just disabled it in bios :)
15:24 < alexsuraci`> yea i'm not sure what it is
15:25 < alexsuraci`> the trackpad's useless atm anyway because i haven't
configured it so it's really slow
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15:25 < tor7> speaking of acme, does anybody have a proper three button
mouse these days or are you all suffering the scroll wheel?
15:25 < dho> I keep wanting to purchase a trackball.
15:25 < dho> I always really liked them
15:26 < alexsuraci`> ah yes those are great.  surprisingly intuitive.
15:26 * dho also wants a kinesis contoured keyboard
15:26 < mpl> alexsuraci`: I was speaking of the nub, when the cursor starts
drifting with it, just release it.
15:26 < yiyus> i find chording with the wheel much more comfortable than
middle and right buttons
15:27 < tor7> I miss the old Sun three button mice...
15:28 < alexsuraci`> mpl: right, sometimes it drifts when i'm actually using
it though, so I think it's the trackpad
15:28 < tor7> I recently found out about this mouse:
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06c/A10-51210-69998-329254-69998-403892-403894-403895.html
15:28 < alexsuraci`> though with some cursory testing that seems to be
impossible.  hm, maybe i have a phantom finger.
15:28 < tor7> anybody tried it?
15:29 < mpl> alexsuraci`: no really, it can start drifting when you are
using it.
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15:29 < alexsuraci`> mpurcell|idle: ah, weird.
15:29 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ
15:29 < alexsuraci`> mpl, rather.
15:29 < dho> morning iant
15:30 <+iant> morning
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15:35 < jessta> I tried to buy a 3 button mouse, all the computer stores I
went to gave me funny loks
15:35 < jessta> *looks
15:37 < jessta> tor7: oh, nice!  I'll get one of those
15:38 -!- sebastiandeutsch [n=sebastia@mue-88-130-80-231.dsl.tropolys.de] has
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15:38 < sebastiandeutsch> hello, I downloaded and make the mysql wrapper for
go.  How do I include it in my project?
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15:42 < jessta> sebastiandeutsch: to my knowledge there are 2 mysql wrappers
for go
15:43 < jessta> sebastiandeutsch: but I imagine you build the package and
then import it
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15:48 < sebastiandeutsch> jessta: noob question, whats the package?  if have
a _go_.6 and a db.a file?
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15:52 < jessta> a compiled package will end in .6 or .8 etc.  depending on
architecture
15:52 <+iant> or you can use gopack to build it into a .a
15:53 < ziyu4huang> If you just write pure Go
http://code.google.com/p/moogle-store/ can help you do package without write
Makefile
15:54 < ziyu4huang> I am still working on CGO support
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15:57 < dho> uh...
15:57 < dho> Ok, so I moved the notewakeup further back.
15:57 < dho> to the end of minit, when m->gsignal is allocated
15:57 < dho> now it crashes with freeing unlocked lock
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15:57 < dho> I *think* this is a more telltale sign of whats going on
15:59 < ziyu4huang> anyone can suggest a unix pipe learning document ? I
wonder why you can close write immediately after ForkExec
http://gopaste.org/view/R1ry4
16:00 < dho> wait.
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16:00 < dho> iant: wouldn't that be suggestive of the same m getting started
twice?
16:00 <+iant> ziyu4huang: for details of Unix I would always recommend
Advanced Unix Programming by Richard Stephens; it is fairly old now but the
details haven't changed
16:01 < dho> oh.
16:01 < JPascal> How I cat compare two values in template using package
"template"?
16:01 < dho> no, i'm tryign to unlock it on the first m
16:01 <+iant> dho: I haven't been following the notewakeup idea, alas
16:03 <+iant> ziyu4huang: after you fork, the child has a copy of the pipe;
you want to close your end of the pipe so that you know when the child closes its
end
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16:03 < dho> iant: where is the first m created?
16:04 < dho> because that one doesn't call newosproc obviously
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16:04 <+iant> dho: I think it's just statically allocated in runtime/proc.c;
it's called m0
16:04 <+iant> it's assigned to m in the startup code, e.g., _rt0_386 in
386/asm.s
16:05 < dho> ah yes, thanks
16:05 < JPascal> Hello iant.
16:06 <+iant> howdy
16:06 < JPascal> I`m fine.  ))
16:06 < JPascal> thx
16:06 < JPascal> Can I compare two values in template using package
"template"?  ^)
16:06 <+iant> I have no idea
16:07 <+iant> sorry
16:07 < JPascal> me too
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16:09 < dho> crap, that doesn't work.
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16:15 < dho> well it's stupid, but that helps a lot, though I'm running into
a GC error very intermittently (mark: world not stopped)
16:15 < dho> and it must be that because now it's running great with
gogc=off
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17:12 < bjorn`> nutsplit
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17:38 < tsuwabuki> I implemented crypt function in Go for study.  Please
teach to me if there is a method of making this better.
https://code.google.com/p/go-crypt/
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17:45 < alexsuraci> who runs gofmt.com?
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18:14 < santidhammo> hi, i'm a GIS engineer, does anyone else have
experience in this field?
18:15 < santidhammo> I'd like to see if Go would be a good platform to
provide modern GIS functionality
18:16 <+danderson> I suggest you start by reading the FAQs
18:16 < santidhammo> I read this already
18:16 <+danderson> in particular, the language is still very young and the
runtime is very inefficient
18:16 <+danderson> so, right now, no.
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18:16 <+danderson> later, maybe, depends.  If a system programming language
is what you need, then Go might be useful.
18:17 < santidhammo> I know right now it would not be proper, but I think it
would be a nice usecase
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18:17 < santidhammo> My experience with both ESRI ArcGIS and GE Smallworld
is that they are terribly slow because of lack of proper multi-processor usage and
no distributed computing
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18:18 <+danderson> how do they compare to openstreetmap's GIS backends?
18:19 <+danderson> (no idea if it's even comparable, osm is just what I
think of when I think of GIS)
18:19 < santidhammo> they are proprietary, with Yottabytes of databases
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18:19 < santidhammo> I'm not talking about google maps or this kind of GIS
18:19 < santidhammo> rather about complex calculation software with huge
databases
18:19 <+danderson> I meant more functionality than datasets
18:20 <+danderson> clearly I don't understand what kind of software you're
talking about, I probably have a narrow view of GIS software
18:20 < santidhammo> I'll explain
18:20 < santidhammo> there are many kinds of GIS systems nowadays
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18:21 < santidhammo> Our tomtom, garmin, whatever else vfor navigation
device we use is a GIS system
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18:21 < santidhammo> Googlemaps and osm are GIS systems, but are targeted at
the big audience
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18:22 <+danderson> right, though I suspect that a lot of what google maps
does on the backend is closer to professional GIS (datasource conflation, analysis
etc.)
18:22 < santidhammo> qGIS (open source), GE Smallworld and ESRI are targeted
at registering data such as cables, cadastral maps, wires, pipes, etc...
18:22 < santidhammo> and performing calculations on thes kinds of objects
18:23 <+danderson> ah, I see.
18:23 <+danderson> so, reasonably similar in algorithms to what maps needs
to do for some stuff, but with very specialized datasets.
18:23 < santidhammo> in the netherlands, the few utility companies have
typically half a yottabyte of data in these systems
18:23 < santidhammo> yes, you are correct
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18:24 < uriel> anyone remembers the address of an unofficial FAQ somebody
wrote for this channel?
18:25 < santidhammo> but these systems are slow, startup times can be
sometimes 10 minutes just to get you to the window...
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18:25 < santidhammo> GE smallworld is decades old and the underlying VM is
bout 8 times slower than java 1.4
18:26 <+danderson> well, depending on what kind of stuff is needed, Go may
or may not be the right tool.
18:26 < santidhammo> ESRI ArcGIS is .NET based, but experience leads to
having the same problems
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18:26 < santidhammo> I think with the beauty of channels it would be usable
somehow
18:26 <+danderson> for a number crunching backend, once it gets better
optimizers and a faster runtime, it might be interesting
18:26 < santidhammo> I think this too
18:27 < santidhammo> I talked about it earlier in the digital mars D
community
18:27 < santidhammo> but I think D is overdoing it
18:27 <+danderson> but most of the slowness of this software is probably due
to the size of the datasets.  Sounds like the solution would be more on the scale
of mapreduce with a couple thousand machines
18:27 <+danderson> and thinned down datasets for the interactive exploration
18:27 < santidhammo> yes, but with intercommunication
18:27 < JBeshir_> Go doesn't have intermachine intercommunication magic
(yet?).
18:27 < santidhammo> now these maps are typically on one huge server, which
is a real bottleneck
18:28 < santidhammo> C doesn't have this too
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18:28 < santidhammo> but if I would choose between C and Go, and they would
be similar in performance, I'd go for Go :-)
18:28 <+danderson> JBeshir_: not in the runtime, but it's reasonably trivial
to produce a shim goroutine that shovels channel data over a network
18:28 <+danderson> assuming all nodes are running the same code and so
forth, of course.
18:29 < santidhammo> this would be the optimal situation
18:29 < JBeshir> danderson: Ah, I see.
18:29 <+danderson> Otherwise you get into Erlang territory where you need to
migrate the code across nodes as well
18:29 < santidhammo> I've been thinking of Erlang earlier
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18:29 < santidhammo> but I'm looking into the understanding of the language
18:29 < santidhammo> For me, a functional language is second nature
18:30 < santidhammo> but for many, this appears as alphabet in reverse
18:31 < santidhammo> I think Go is more "intuitive" for many, although a Jit
version would make my day
18:32 <+danderson> I've been learning LLVM recently, I was thinking of
trying to implement a Go frontend.
18:32 <+iant> danderson: I hope to split apart the gccgo frontend to make it
usable for LLVM as well
18:33 <+iant> right now the GENERIC generation is threaded through the code,
but there is really no reason for that
18:33 < JBeshir> What I find kinda interesting about Go is that with the
rate it compiles, a lot of stuff supposedly only practical for interpreted
languages might be doable in it.
18:33 < JBeshir> Probably with a fair bit of overhead compared to regular
use (like...  needing to carry around a Go compiler), but...
18:34 <+danderson> iant: ah, cool.  My prattling with LLVM was more to get a
feel for implementing a real language with the libraries (vs.  the Kaleidoscope
toy language from the tutorials), good to know someone smart is working on a
proper frontend :)
18:34 <+iant> well, I'm not working on an LLVM frontend yet....
18:35 <+danderson> heh.  We'll see how my learning goes.  I'm still quite
early down the path, lots of the idioms and APIs to pick up.
18:35 < santidhammo> LLVM and my life just became better
18:35 <+danderson> Once I get beyond that, I'll give a shout
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18:36 < santidhammo> would anyone be interested in my help for making go
work with LLVM?
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18:36 < santidhammo> doing this alone is a terrible almost criminal job
18:37 < santidhammo> is it necessary to take apart the current gccgo
frontend or 6g frontend?
18:37 < santidhammo> or is it better to implement it apart from this
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18:39 <+iant> santidhammo: I believe that taking apart the gccgo frontend is
the right approach, and I plan to at least take it apart
18:40 <+iant> I should have written it apart in the first place, of course
18:40 < uriel> iant: how does that fit with the plans of using the same
runtime as gc?
18:40 < santidhammo> Ian: then we take this approach, i'd like to give
assistance
18:40 <+iant> uriel: I think it's more or less independent
18:41 < santidhammo> iant: The only thing I'm afraid off is doing things the
GCC way, instead of the Go way
18:41 <+iant> the interaction between the compiler and the runtime is
relatively limited; it's mainly an issue of type descriptors
18:41 < uriel> iant: and what is the best way to follow gccgo's development?
other than just checking out the svn tree
18:41 <+iant> santidhammo: I'm certainly happy to accept patches for the
gccgo frontend, so far I don't know if anybody other than me has even looked at
it....
18:41 * uriel can't touch svn, alergic to it and makes me want to throw up just to
think about it ;P
18:42 <+iant> uriel: you can read gcc-patches@gcc.gnu.org and filter only
messages with [gccgo] in the subject (the list as a whole is very active, but
[gccgo] messages are few)
18:42 < santidhammo> iant: I'll take a look at it and try to swallow the
magic
18:42 < uriel> iant: ah, thanks, will check that out
18:42 <+iant> uriel: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/GitMirror
18:42 < uriel> ah, great :)
18:43 <+iant> I haven't used it myself, though
18:44 < uriel> iant: it is perfect, this is exaclty what I was looking for:
http://repo.or.cz/w/official-gcc.git/shortlog/refs/heads/gccgo
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18:46 < santidhammo> is there any specification about how Go deals with
method calls?  I think it's different from C
18:46 <+iant> well, C doesn't have method calls; calling an interface on a
method is very similar to a virtual function call in C++
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18:46 <+iant> I mean, calling a method on an interface
18:46 < santidhammo> my wrong
18:47 < santidhammo> C has function calls
18:47 <+iant> calling a method on some other type is simply a function call
18:47 <+iant> oh, just function calls?
18:47 < santidhammo> well, a lot more
18:47 <+iant> 6g uses a nonstandard ABI; gccgo uses the standard ABI
18:47 < santidhammo> ok ic
18:47 < santidhammo> This is what I meant
18:48 < santidhammo> The last time I was busy with compilers is 4 years ago
:-)
18:48 < santidhammo> The terminology needs to be refreshed in my brains
18:48 < santidhammo> cdecl, stddecl, pascal, i remember somehow
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18:49 < sirmacik> Hi all \o
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18:54 < santidhammo> I'm going to do some reading and sleeping
18:55 < santidhammo> goodbye everyone, see you all next time
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19:07 <+danderson> tiens:
http://michaelzimmer.org/2009/12/07/if-you-trust-googles-results-you-can-thank-pigeonrank/
19:07 <+danderson> oops, wrong channel.
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19:08 <+danderson> still funny though.
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19:13 < dho> danderson: wow.
19:14 < jessta> lol
19:15 < jessta> there are plenty of better hoaxes to fall for
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19:16 <+danderson> jessta: I disagree.  I think that presenting PigeonRank
technology with a straight face is very high up there.
19:16 <+danderson> maybe along with the moonbase
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19:17 < jessta> hmmm..now I'm seeing meta-hoaxes
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19:17 <+danderson> (pay no attention to that dome thing halfway across Mare
Crisium)
19:18 < jessta> was the post a hoax?  was the student playing a joke?
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19:23 <+danderson> nope.
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19:31 < skelterjohn> iant, have you been following "go for?" thread?  Is
this something that the golang team could conceivably pick up at some point?
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19:32 <+iant> skelterjohn: I've been reading it but it seems that people are
mostly talking about ways to use the language as it is
19:32 <+iant> what is the proposal at this point?
19:32 < skelterjohn> parallel.For<T>(inputs chan T, foo func(t T))
(wait func())
19:32 < skelterjohn> for correct syntax of templating, if it ever happens
19:33 < skelterjohn> I don't see a good way to do it without templating
19:33 <+iant> so, let's separate the templating from the rest of it
19:33 < skelterjohn> (I started that thread)
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19:33 <+iant> what is left that the language doesn't do today?
19:34 < skelterjohn> You can do what I suggest for a parallel for within the
language.  But you would have to rewrite some code that is easy to get wrong each
time, for each kind of thing to iterate over
19:34 < skelterjohn> the last post has a suggestion for what a parallel.For
would look like, for ints
19:35 <+iant> so is this syntactic sugar (which can be OK, of course)?
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19:35 < skelterjohn> if templating exists, it would be a very useful library
function
19:36 < skelterjohn> my original proposal, a "go for" construct, would be
sugar, but I no longer feel it is worth the scoping confusion
19:36 < skelterjohn> eek, the thread deleted my indentation
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19:37 <+iant> well, we know that templating would be useful, certainly
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19:38 * dho wonders when russ is going to be around to bother
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19:38 < skelterjohn> has the team even decided how it would be done?  not
clear to me how to do templating with pre-compiled packages
19:39 <+iant> we have not decided how it would be done; that is indeed the
issue
19:39 < skelterjohn> C++ does it completely inline (as far as i know).  java
does it by having an interpreter
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19:39 <+iant> yes
19:39 < skelterjohn> go wants to do it both ways, which seems tricky
19:39 < fenicks> hello
19:39 < skelterjohn> hi, fenicks
19:40 < skelterjohn> here's a thought - i read somewhere, i forget where,
that all linking in go is static
19:40 <+iant> it is for 6g/8g, yes
19:40 < exch_> I've got templating working with a preprocessor, but it's
useless for compiled code
19:40 < skelterjohn> this could be wrong, or temporary, but whenever a go
program is built, it carries its libraries
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19:41 < skelterjohn> if the linking is static, the compiler could modify
what it brings in to fit the template?
19:41 < skelterjohn> but if the static linking is not always the case, this
solution doesn't make as much sense
19:41 <+iant> gccgo does not always statically link
19:41 <+iant> but of course this kind of thing can be made to work with C++
in any case
19:41 < uriel> dynamic linking is evil
19:42 <+iant> the glibc maintainer of course says that static linking is
evil....
19:42 < skelterjohn> iant, i don't understand your last message
19:42 < uriel> iant: my opinion of glibc and its maintainer are not
printable...
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19:42 <+iant> gcc can instantiate templates at link time, via the -frepo
option
19:42 <+iant> even when linking dynamically
19:43 < skelterjohn> w/r/t static vs dynamic linking for multithreaded
programming, there was a link in a thread on the list showing that the more
dynamic linking was done, the fewer forks per second it could achieve
19:43 < uriel> skelterjohn: yup, dynamic linking makes the vm and fork much
more complex (and thenfore expensive)
19:43 <+iant> I'm sure that is true, but dynamic linking won't affect the
number of goroutines a program can create per second
19:43 <+iant> (since goroutines are not forks)
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19:44 < uriel> (the kernel vm system, I mean)
19:44 < skelterjohn> iant, i didn't think templates had anything to do with
linking...i thought they were just funky header files and compiled directly into
the binary...
19:44 < skelterjohn> ah, i don't know much about the lowlevel to know why
forks and goroutines are different in this respect
19:44 <+iant> skelterjohn: there are different possible implementations;
there is also the C++ export keyword (which gcc does not implement)
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19:46 <+iant> (sadly I have had to learn this kind of thing in great detail)
19:47 < skelterjohn> heh
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19:48 < dho> I don't think it should slow down spawning more m's either,
since they're in the same address space.
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19:49 < skelterjohn> Heh.  What's an 'm'
19:49 < skelterjohn> ?
19:49 -!- brrant [n=John@168-103-78-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
19:49 < dho> there are two datastructures in the go runtime that represent
goroutines and os-level threads
19:50 < dho> goroutines are `Gs' and os-level threads are `Ms'
19:50 < dho> you can have multiple Gs per M
19:50 < skelterjohn> interesting
19:51 < dho> the go runtime scheduler figures out what G to run on a
particular M at any given point in time, and multiple Ms may run concurrently
19:51 < dho> so it's really an M:N userland scheduler, and the kernel uses
whatever scheduler it uses, which is usually 1:1
19:51 < dho> (I don't know of any M:N OS thread implementations)
19:51 < dho> that were successful anyway
19:52 < dho> rather, Gs use the runtime scheduler, Ms are scheduled by the
kernel as they're os-level threads.
19:52 < skelterjohn> yeah, I follow.
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19:53 < dho> and either way, it's all in the same memory space, so there
should be no re-loading of dynamic libraries when anything to do with Go is
spawned
19:53 < skelterjohn> yep
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19:54 < skelterjohn> I remember some proposals that talk about templating on
the import statement
19:54 < dho> iant: everything keeps pointing back to issues in malloc :(
19:55 < skelterjohn> ie import "Count"<int>
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19:55 < skelterjohn> or lowercase count.
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19:55 <+iant> dho: malloc or GC? Do you know?
19:56 < skelterjohn> so when the library is brought in, the templating can
be done - make a copy for each kind of parameter
19:56 < dho> iant: it persists if i set GOGC=off
19:56 < skelterjohn> why does this fall flat?
19:56 < dho> iant: but differently
19:56 < dho> iant: and it's failures in mlookup
19:56 < dho> which might point back to issues with m/g being correct
19:56 <+iant> dho: very odd
19:57 < dho> it is
19:57 < dho> iant: also, m0 doesn't have a gsignal does it?
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19:58 < dho> or, no, that calls mstart, which should call minit, so it
should have one.
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19:58 <+iant> skelterjohn: it might work, but I'm not sure it is as flexible
as people really want, e.g., for things like iterators
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19:59 < skelterjohn> for i := range count<int>.Iterate(0, 10) {...}
19:59 < skelterjohn> ?
19:59 < skelterjohn> for i := range count<float>.Iterate(0, 10, .5)
{...}
19:59 < skelterjohn> could you tell me what you're thinking about, w/r/t
lack of flexibility?
19:59 <+iant> that will work fine, but I'm thinking more about structs that
are templated in terms of other structs
20:00 <+iant> I think there was some discussion on one of the threads on
thelist
20:01 < KirkMcDonald> I prefer D's concept of templates-as-namespaces.
20:01 < dho> iant: if I leave GC on, I always get mark - world not stopped
20:02 < dho> (for values of always that means always when it crashes)
20:03 < skelterjohn> iant, do you remember which thread?
20:03 <+iant> skelterjohn: not off hand, sorry
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20:25 < skelterjohn> here's a question: in one goroutine I am stuffing
numbers into a chan.  Once I've stuffed them all in I close the channel.
20:25 < skelterjohn> in another goroutine, I use a "for i := range thechan"
20:25 < skelterjohn> but once i've closed the channel, and before everything
has been extracted, that for loop will quit
20:26 < skelterjohn> leaving things in the channel despite trying to iterate
over its range
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20:30 < jessta> skelterjohn: is the for loop quiting or is the program
quiting?
20:30 < skelterjohn> the loop
20:30 < skelterjohn> i can paste some code, one sec
20:31 < dho> why do you close the channel?  chans are garbage collected
20:32 < JBeshir> Because otherwise, the loop doesn't end in the remote
goroutine until it's garbage collected, right?
20:32 < skelterjohn> yes
20:33 < skelterjohn> and it would never be GC'd
20:33 < dho> hm, and i guess it won't be if you're blocked waiting for
osmething.
20:33 < skelterjohn> since that goroutine still holds it
20:33 < dho> right
20:33 < skelterjohn> http://www.gopaste.net/?id=1544
20:33 < skelterjohn> so, funny story
20:33 < skelterjohn> that code segment seems to always get all values
20:34 < skelterjohn> but when main() was a TestFor(), it wouldn't
20:34 < skelterjohn> not sure why it would behave differently
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20:37 < jessta> skelterjohn: ...is block getting GC'd?
20:38 < skelterjohn> this one shows it off better - runs to 100 and prints
out how many got back http://www.gopaste.net/?id=1545
20:38 < skelterjohn> 1000, rather
20:38 < skelterjohn> um.
20:38 < skelterjohn> why would it be?  and how would i know?
20:38 < jessta> block would be GC'd when For returns
20:38 < skelterjohn> block is held by that wait() function, which is always
kept track of until the end of main()
20:39 < skelterjohn> that wait will carry block in its closure
20:39 < skelterjohn> but even if it did die with For, it wouldn't matter -
For doesn't return until it goes through all 1000 elements in the channel
20:40 < skelterjohn> and it doesn't.  it stops sometime after the inputs
chan is closed
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20:47 < skelterjohn> even more dramatic if i up the number of worker threads
to a significant fraction of 1000
20:47 < skelterjohn> if i have 500 worker threads, only ~520 inputs are
dealt with
20:48 < skelterjohn> so it seems like closing a chan in one thread will halt
a for loop over that chan's range in another thread.  is this correct behavior?
20:49 < dho> Probably
20:50 < dho> I've been avoiding suggesting this, but channels are a
communication mechanism, and talking over channels means having some sort of
communication protocol.  You should probably have some way to signify that you're
done.
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20:50 < skelterjohn> yeah...i closed the channel!
20:50 < dho> skelterjohn: I mean like sending an `end' over the channel.
20:51 < skelterjohn> I don't think that is reasonable.  I think that closing
the channel should be like sending an eof.
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20:51 < dho> Think of it in context of a network protocol if that makes
sense.
20:51 < skelterjohn> I can't think of a reason for closing the channel to
stop an incomplete iteration over range
20:51 < dho> Take HTTP, for instance.
20:51 < skelterjohn> I understand how what you say would work
20:52 < skelterjohn> i just don't think it's appropriate when closing the
channel makes sense semantically
20:52 < skelterjohn> perhaps there is an implementation detail that makes it
not work in practice, but i think it should be fixed so ti does
20:52 < dho> It makes sense to me, but maybe that's because I'm a network
software engineer :\
20:52 < dho> who does webdev -_-
20:52 < skelterjohn> I haven't claimed anything didn't make sense.  I'm
claiming that what I suggest makes *better* sense.
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20:53 < dho> skelterjohn: I don't think it does, because why should closing
a channel work differently than closing an fd?
20:53 < dho> Just because you haven't processed the entire contents of an FD
doesn't mean you can't close it.
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20:53 < skelterjohn> alright, i follow
20:54 < skelterjohn> i was thinking of it from two ends, one has a "sending
channel", and the other has a "receiving channel"
20:54 < skelterjohn> in that context, it makes sense to close the sending
end
20:54 < skelterjohn> but in reality, both threads just have a "channel"
20:54 < dho> Right, channels are duplex
20:54 < skelterjohn> so i should think of close as a destructor?
20:54 < skelterjohn> not sure i like that
20:55 < skelterjohn> i mean, i'm not saying dispose(inputs)
20:56 < skelterjohn> from the lang spec: For a channel c, the predefined
function close(c) marks the channel as unable to accept more values through a send
operation.  After any previously sent values have been received, receive
operations will return the zero value for the channel's type.  After at least one
such zero value has been received, closed(c) returns true.
20:56 < skelterjohn> I think that is consistent with what I was suggesting
20:56 < skelterjohn> rather than treating it like a file descriptor
20:56 < dho> hm
20:56 < skelterjohn> specifically, "after any previously sent values have
been received" implies my fragment should work
20:57 < dho> yes, you're right.
20:57 < skelterjohn> i didn't realize that close() blocks, though
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20:58 < skelterjohn> err
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20:58 < skelterjohn> nevermind
20:58 < skelterjohn> it doesn't - didn't notice it says "closed" rather than
"close" returns true
20:59 < dho> where does yours stop
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21:01 < Knarfian> Hi - can anyone point me to an explanation of how
goroutines/channels get scheduled to OS threads?  I understand how plan9 and
plan9port do it, but I'm new to Go. Thx.
21:01 < skelterjohn> if you change the number of threads to 500 and the
number of values to 1000, it stops between 500 and 600
21:01 < dho> hm
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21:01 < skelterjohn> ie likely that the first time the for loop iterates
after the chan is closed, it finishes
21:01 < dho> skelterjohn: I have to wonder if it has to do with the fact
that the goroutines are all operating over the same range.
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21:04 < skelterjohn> dho: i changed it to a "for !closed(inputs) {...}" just
grabbing the values with <-.  gets even fewer, for some reason
21:04 < dho> oh.
21:04 < skelterjohn> err
21:04 < dho> skelterjohn: see rog's one writer, many readers post on the
list i think
21:04 < skelterjohn> wait a sec - i changed the #threads and #values
21:05 < dho> you may need to use select
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21:05 < skelterjohn> i could use select, but i'd need to create another
channel
21:05 < skelterjohn> and something to populate that channel once the values
are all grabbed out of inputs
21:06 < skelterjohn> don't know how to do that if For() takes the input chan
as a parameter from an unknown source
21:06 < skelterjohn> so interesting...  when i loop on !closed(inputs), with
100 workers and 100 values, it counts 160some
21:06 < skelterjohn> which seems weird
21:07 < dho> right, like I said
21:07 < dho> 16:03 < dho> skelterjohn: I have to wonder if it has to
do with the fact that the goroutines are all operating over the same range.
21:07 < skelterjohn> no range though
21:07 < skelterjohn> just using <-inputs
21:07 < dho> yes but it's the same channel
21:07 < dho> all readers get the same set of values
21:07 < dho> which was my implication
21:07 < skelterjohn> channels aren't threadsafe?
21:08 < dho> You either need to communicate back to send another value over
the channel or you need to multiplex
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21:10 < skelterjohn> I don't know what you're suggesting with multiplexing.
With communicating back, I feel like just grabbing a value from the channel should
be sufficient
21:11 < dho> do you understand that all of your goroutines receive the same
set of values?
21:11 < skelterjohn> i understand they are.  I am saying they shouldn't
21:11 < dho> why?
21:11 < dho> You have 1 channel.
21:12 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has quit []
21:12 < skelterjohn> i think of it like a queue.  when someone pops
something off the top, it is no longer there
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21:12 < dho> it's not a queue
21:12 < skelterjohn> if chans aren't threadsafe, then this might not
necessarily happen
21:12 < dho> it's a broadcast mechanism.
21:13 < dho> When you write to a channel, every reader of that channel gets
the same value.
21:13 < skelterjohn> when i use for i:=range inputs, each value is received
by exactly one thread
21:13 < skelterjohn> at most one thread, i should say.  because of the
closing, some aren't received at all
21:13 < dho> What you're suggesting is a very fundamentally different change
to how channels work
21:13 < dho> I don't think it's because of the closing
21:13 < skelterjohn> if i don't close it, all are received.
21:13 < skelterjohn> and the program panics because of threadlock
21:14 < dho> ok
21:15 < dho> In any case, a channel isn't a queue.
21:15 < jessta> dho: are you sure, I'm pretty sure it is
21:15 < dho> I'll test it out.
21:15 < jessta> skelterjohn: your code seems to run fine here
21:15 < dho> jessta: up the number of worker threads.
21:16 < skelterjohn> jessta: try setting the number of threads to 100 and
the values to 500
21:17 < jessta> yeah, still works fine
21:17 < skelterjohn> OS/compiler?
21:18 < skelterjohn> i'm on darwin/amd64/6g
21:18 < jessta> 8g linux
21:18 < dho> i'm on freebsd/amd64/6g
21:20 < dho> hm,
21:20 < dho> I am wrong.
21:21 < skelterjohn> the extra counts when i use for !closed(inputs) come
from nil values being sent
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21:21 < skelterjohn> rather than duplicates being read
21:22 < dho> you're right.
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21:23 < skelterjohn> I made it work using that rather than range
21:23 < skelterjohn> so, it's range that cuts off prematurely
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21:28 < skelterjohn> from the spec: For channels, the identifier list must
contain one identifier.  The iteration receives values sent on the channel until
the channel is closed; it does not process the zero value sent before the channel
is closed.
21:29 < skelterjohn> depending on whether you mean "closed()" the function
there, or that the channel has been "close()"'d, that can be interpretted
differently
21:29 < skelterjohn> with closed() the function, it should do what I want it
to do
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21:31 < dho> you know what
21:31 < dho> I'm giving a lot of bad advice today
21:32 < KirkMcDonald> dho: Is that a decision or a conclusion?
21:32 < dho> both
21:32 < KirkMcDonald> Excellent.
21:32 < dho> oh
21:32 < dho> conclusion
21:32 < dho> see?
21:33 < dho> My reading interpretation skills are completely shot today, so
I'm responding horribly
21:33 < dho> Probably not the best idea to try to figure out these freebsd
issues
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21:39 < Fringehead> Has anyone else tried to bounce an http request from
Apache to a Go http server?
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ShadowIce, decriptor, halfdan, keeto, kimelto, hallsa_, skelterjohn, nictuku,
tux21b, (+7 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
21:40 < Fringehead> Eep, split.
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xjih78_, hallsa_, decriptor, halfdan, droid0011 (+7 more)
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Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2009/06/06 11:44:47
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21:42 < skelterjohn> hooray for netsplits
21:42 < skelterjohn> someone should improve IRC.
21:42 < JBeshir> I agree, in that the Freenode staff need to improve their
server selection.
21:43 < dho> Dunno of a great way to deal with network partitions.
21:43 < Boggy-B> not as bad as darkmyst, which drop you every 10 minutes
21:43 < dho> But freenode is really flappy.
21:43 < JBeshir> Partial mesh networks, but then you need to implement
checkpointing and all kinds of other fun things, because TCP isn't good enough.
21:43 < JBeshir> But no one's ever implemented one in an IRC server.
21:44 < JBeshir> With checkpointing, you could heal splits without dropping
messages, too, which means you could safely suppress very very short ones.
21:44 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577BA83C.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts
21:44 < JBeshir> You'd need client integration to handle a server dropping
switching you to another server smoothly.
21:44 < skelterjohn> if the server you're on goes down, that's one thing
21:45 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.190.245] has joined #go-nuts
21:45 < skelterjohn> but if the connection between your server and another
goes down, that should be hidden, messages buffered and resent, etc
21:46 -!- SRabbelier [n=SRabbeli@ip138-114-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has
joined #go-nuts
21:47 < dho> It's all very arbitrary.
21:47 -!- Anders [n=Anders@c83-253-2-206.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving"]
21:47 < dho> How long do you buffer before you stop?
21:48 < skelterjohn> that would be a parameter
21:48 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@210-84-16-70.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Network is
unreachable]
21:48 < skelterjohn> maybe a few minutes
21:48 < skelterjohn> some reasonable timeout length
21:48 < skelterjohn> and a serverwide message informing people of netsplits
21:48 -!- teedex [n=teedex@204.14.155.161] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:49 < skelterjohn> i'm sure there is a better way to handle it
21:49 < dho> buffering all traffic on both sides of a split that's sending a
few mbits per second is a lot of data over a few minutes
21:50 < JBeshir> dho: I would be honestly astounded at an IRCD sending a few
Mbps
21:50 < dho> JBeshir: both efnet and freenode do
21:50 < skelterjohn> well, a lot goes on with the bigger networks
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[Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:50 < skelterjohn> thousands of channels, many active
21:50 < JBeshir> Let's say each channel has a message a second.
21:51 < dho> and you're not just buffering text, you'd have to buffer
join/part events, channel mode changes, etc.
21:51 < JBeshir> Each message is at most 512 bytes.
21:51 < skelterjohn> so 500000 bytes per second
21:51 < JBeshir> Thousands of channels...  512bps per channel...  I guess,
but at a more reasonable event rate, thigns drop off very very quickly.
21:51 < skelterjohn> if you have 1000 active channels
21:51 < dho> and that's ignoring privmsgs between users
21:51 < skelterjohn> either way, decent amount of data
21:52 < dho> and also ignoring channel and user mode changes.
21:52 < JBeshir> dho: I'm including them in "messages".
21:52 < skelterjohn> but you only need to buffer what is leaving one
particular server
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closed the connection]
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joined #go-nuts
21:52 < JBeshir> Given "one per second" is an absolutely horrifically huge
overestimate anyway...
21:52 < skelterjohn> which is much smaller than what goes throughout the
entire network
21:52 < dho> JBeshir: doubt it.  there are channels that have at least 1
join/part per second and I see many channels that have multiple messages per
second frequently
21:53 < skelterjohn> TCP does some buffering anyway
21:53 -!- codedread [i=81bc2119@gateway/web/freenode/x-kbivxfqznhwmylit] has
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21:53 < JBeshir> dho: Frequently doesn't matter to average, and "quit"
messages propagate as a single message for the user.
21:53 < dho> even if 512 bytes is an overestimate, there are 512 byte lines,
and that doesn't include protocol overhead
21:53 < skelterjohn> so the server is already buffering everything for a
smaller time frame
21:53 < JBeshir> Actually, it does, I believe.
21:53 < skelterjohn> holds onto each message until it is acknowledged
21:54 < JBeshir> Yeah, pretty sure 512 bytes includes all the overhead.
Definitely includes the nuh and the word "PRIVMSG" itself.
21:54 < skelterjohn> if irc uses TCP
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21:54 < dho> assuming that you buffer for 1 minute and you have 500000 bytes
per second, that's 57 mb of data that you then have to read back through and
multiplex
21:54 < skelterjohn> the overhead for a message is something like "/msg
#channel <the-message>"
21:54 < JBeshir> Er, no.
21:54 < skelterjohn> fairly small.  irc has a very simple protocol
21:54 < dho> because you have to calculate who would receive it.  what if
that user left the channel in the middle of a split?  what if people joined the
channel in the middle of the split
21:54 < JBeshir> That's just the command in your client, it propagates
differently.
21:55 < skelterjohn> JBeshir - it's the message going from my computer to
the irc server
21:55 < dho> skelterjohn: it's PRIVMSG #channel :message
21:55 < skelterjohn> maybe it's different between servers
21:55 < JBeshir> skelterjohn: No, it isn't.
21:55 < JBeshir> skelterjohn: Your client sends what dho said, yeah.
21:55 < alexsuraci> ooh, thunderbird 3 (just came out) has a
reply-to-mailinglist button
21:55 < JBeshir> ANd going between servers, your Nick!ident@host gets added
on.
21:55 * dho uses telnet to irc sometimes for fun.
21:55 < skelterjohn> but i have reverse engineered this before.  many years
ago so it might be a bit off, but a very simple message
21:55 < skelterjohn> i did say "something like"
21:55 < JBeshir> skelterjohn: "reverse engineered"...  it's a documented
standard.
21:55 < skelterjohn> but it's not some big buffer
21:55 < dho> JBeshir: anyway, there are tons of users who are PRIVMSGing
each other at any given point in time
21:56 < Boggy-B> RFC for the win :)
21:56 < skelterjohn> ok well i wasn't good at reading standards :)
21:56 < skelterjohn> this is when i was an undergrad
21:57 < dho> JBeshir: even if we ended up with 10MB of data to send, it's
pretty computationally intensive to go back through and figure out what data goes
to what destination
21:57 < dho> (especially for people who joined/parted during the split)
21:57 < JBeshir> dho: Not really, you're buffering it for the split server,
right?
21:57 < JBeshir> dho: You know where it's going.  The split server you're
buffering for.
21:58 < JBeshir> The remote server will have to sync, but no worse than on
every other sync.
21:58 < dho> JBeshir: Ok, and when it receives it, how does it figure out
who that data gets sent to?
21:58 < JBeshir> The normal way; it's a lot less crazy than it sounds,
because what you're missing is that this is probably better than how IRC usually
resolves splits.
21:58 < dho> it is, because current syncs only keep track of users (as
minimally as possible) and channels
21:58 < JBeshir> dho: Splits are resolved by both servers basically throwing
their entire states at each other.
21:58 < JBeshir> In a single burst on each.
21:58 < dho> Right.
21:59 < dho> that state is userlists and channel lists.
21:59 < JBeshir> Modes, channel membership, etc, yeah.
21:59 < dho> conflicts are usually channel modes and user modes and user
modes inside the channel
21:59 < JBeshir> Resolved by timestamp (in all modern IRCDs), yes.
22:00 < dho> JBeshir: so if a user parted halfway through a split, do you
resend the buffer they missed?
22:00 < skelterjohn> anyway.  the console spam is annoying and it should
stop.
22:00 -!- codehai [n=codehai@xdsl-78-34-37-157.netcologne.de] has joined #go-nuts
22:00 < JBeshir> This is getting really offtopic, anyways.
22:00 < dho> skelterjohn: you can ignore join/part events :)
22:00 < dho> yes it is
22:00 < Boggy-B> sounds like a fun little project mind you
22:00 < skelterjohn> but if someone leaves for real i'd like to know ;)
22:00 < dho> as a finalizer, diane bruce has an irc-ng mailing list where
this sort of stuff isn't off-topic.
22:00 < Boggy-B> IRC v2 :p
22:01 < dho> it's very low traffic
22:01 < dho> http://heceta.db.net/mailman/listinfo/ircng
22:01 < dho> and i'll end there :)
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Quit]
22:02 < skelterjohn> I was supposed to get some work done today, and all I
did was experiment with go parallelism.  :\
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22:36 < muzzy> how to debug if i suspect a compiler bug?
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nictuku, (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
22:38 < Rob_Russell> depends what kind of bug i guess
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22:39 < muzzy> arithmetics fail
22:39 < muzzy> result should be 0 and it's -2147483648
22:39 < Rob_Russell> ah
22:39 < Rob_Russell> could be a data type thing
22:40 < muzzy> copying only a small part of the code to a new program
doesn't reproduce code
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22:41 < Rob_Russell> -2147483648 is the minimum for a 32-bit signed int
22:41 < Rob_Russell> so you could've had a rollover in an int
22:42 < Rob_Russell> or you could be expecting a uint but getting a signed
int
22:42 < Rob_Russell> try looking at the variable declarations and the types
you're getting
22:43 < muzzy> well, it's just int and float, i=(f*f2); ...  and f is 0, f2
is 1-0.8
22:43 < muzzy> i=int(f*f2) that is
22:43 < muzzy> if i do the multiplication first, it gives 0 correctly
22:45 -!- eulenspiegel [n=irssi@p579CA40C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts
22:46 < muzzy> fine, now it's: f:=float(0); i=int(f*0.2); print(i);
22:46 -!- Makavel [n=eddw@hoasb-ff08dd00-36.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit]
22:47 < dho> are you using release?  i think there's been a fp bug fixed
since then
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22:47 < muzzy> dho, good point.  i think i forgot to recompile :)
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22:49 < Rob_Russell> yeah, that last line gives me 0 (using today's Go
source)
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22:54 < muzzy> dho: damnit, you were right :P
22:54 < dho> :)
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23:24 < dho> finally.
23:24 < dho> fixed the freebsd bug.
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23:36 < uriel> dho: congrats
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23:37 < JBeshir> My stuff that used to have 6.5MB RAM usage now has...
920KB.
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23:44 < skelterjohn> JBeshir: well, that's a good change
23:44 < skelterjohn> assuming you don't mean that your hardware is
evaporating
23:45 < JBeshir> No, I don't have a P4.
23:45 < JBeshir> It's a good change.  :P
23:45 -!- osmosis [n=steven@m1c0e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #go-nuts
23:47 < dho> uriel: i'll forward that on to russ <_<
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23:56 < uriel> nickjohnson: see this around min 17
http://thechangelog.com/post/259401776/episode-0-0-3-googles-go-programming-language
23:56 < uriel> rob talking about running go on the clr ;)
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 09 00:00:31 2009