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00:21 < nf> If I create non-intersecting slices over an array, can I modify
them concurrently from separate goroutines?
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00:22 < nf> (efficiently?)
00:23 < uriel> nf: I think that should be ok
00:23 < dho> sounds reasonable.
00:23 < uriel> but be careful that they don't overlap if you grow them or
something
00:23 < nf> I am seeing if I can parallelise a quicksort of a (large) array,
to see if it actually improves performance
00:24 < dho> probably
00:24 < dho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksort#Parallelizations
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00:51 < skelterjohn> I made a googlecode project to keep track of some
useful concurrency patterns - http://code.google.com/p/goconc/
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01:13 < uriel> skelterjohn: cool, I will add a link to
http://go-lang.cat-v.org
01:14 < skelterjohn> neat
01:14 < skelterjohn> You should convince the golang guys to link your site
on the homepage
01:14 < bfrank2> you wouldn't think that would be that difficult
01:15 < bfrank2> uriel is the man
01:15 < bfrank2> :)
01:16 < uriel> bfrank2: some things are trickier than it might seem...
01:16 < uriel> bfrank2: and thanks for the encouragement
01:17 < KiNgMaR> amazing how much stuff people came up with already
01:17 < uriel> KiNgMaR: I'm sure I'm missing quite a lot of stuff
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01:17 < bfrank2> your site has all kinds of great stuff
01:18 < uriel> well, glad you folks find it useful
01:18 * uriel has a cold and trouble thinking, so has spent some time working on
his programming quotes collection: http://quotes.cat-v.org/programming/
01:21 < bfrank2> when using := with a piece of code, is there any way to
determine what type a variable is?
01:23 < uriel> bfrank2: what do you mean about using :=?
01:23 < uriel> if you want to determine what type a variable is, usually a
type switch is the best way to go
01:23 < bfrank2> hmm
01:24 < uriel> what are you trying to do?
01:24 < KirkMcDonald> bfrank2: Its type is the type of the initializer.
01:24 < KirkMcDonald> bfrank2: So check what the initializer's type is.
01:24 < uriel> (note that there is never any ambiguity as to the type of
something declared with :=
01:24 < uriel> well, what KirkMcDonald said :)
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01:25 < bfrank2> I guess I need to look into a type switch.  Basically, I
want to retrieve data from functions, assign them with := and then have a way for
it to tell me what type it is
01:26 < uriel> well, what type does the function return?
01:26 < uriel> that will be the type of the variable
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01:28 < bfrank2> ReadFile said it returns []bytes, or atleast I thought it
did.  But when I tried to do the assignment to the wrong variable type, the
compiler said that it was trying to assign a uint8.  Is a uint8 considered
[]bytes?
01:28 < bfrank2> I am probably juust severely confused
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01:29 < KirkMcDonald> 'byte' is an alias for uint8.
01:30 < bfrank2> ahhh
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01:30 < KirkMcDonald> Pastebin the code, perhaps?
01:31 < bfrank2> ha, I got it working, when I didn't define the type of the
variable, when I just used :=
01:31 < bfrank2> but I wasn't sure why, until you mentioned that byte and
uint8 are the same thing
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01:32 < bfrank2> having a way to have the language tell me whatype a
variable is might be nice]
01:33 < bfrank2> is there a list of those aliases?
01:33 < skelterjohn> Sounds like a job for an IDE
01:33 < KirkMcDonald> bfrank2: Normally this is patently obvious.
01:33 < bfrank2> true
01:33 < KirkMcDonald> bfrank2: That is, the static type of a variable is
usually obvious.
01:33 < KirkMcDonald> bfrank2: The dynamic type of an interface variable is
another matter.
01:34 < skelterjohn> seems weird to me that byte would be an alias for
uint8, rather than "type byte uint8"
01:34 < KirkMcDonald> bfrank2: http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Types
01:34 < bfrank2> thanks
01:34 < skelterjohn> but right there in your link, it says that
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01:35 < uriel> 01:31 < bfrank2> ha, I got it working, when I didn't
define the type of the variable, when I just used :=
01:35 < uriel> bfrank2: as I said := *does* define the type of the variable
01:35 < uriel> it defines it to the type of the rvalue
01:35 < bfrank2> well, I mean, I didn't explicitly define it
01:35 < uriel> it does *explicitly define it
01:35 < bfrank2> hmm
01:35 < KirkMcDonald> It does.  The coder doesn't.
01:36 < bfrank2> when I tried, I mean, I was doing it wrong.  Letting the
language do it, worked, but I didn't know why...
01:36 < uriel> the expression to the right of := does have a well defined
type, that is the type
01:36 < skelterjohn> i tend to think of that as an implicit type
declaration, rather than an explicit one
01:36 < bfrank2> yeah, I sorta do too
01:36 < bfrank2> but that is just me
01:36 < KirkMcDonald> It is type inference.
01:36 < skelterjohn> x := y *implies* that x has the same type as y
01:36 < KirkMcDonald> That is the usual name.
01:36 < uriel> skelterjohn: there is no semantic different whatsoever
between either
01:36 < skelterjohn> implicit and explicit mean different things :)
01:37 < uriel> skelterjohn: it doesn't imply, it is the only way, it can be
anything else
01:37 < skelterjohn> explicit means you state.  implicit means you infer
01:37 < uriel> s/can/can't/
01:37 < skelterjohn> imply doesn't mean that there are other possibilities
01:37 < skelterjohn> it means you have to figure it out from the evidence
presented
01:37 < kfx> just because it isn't in english doesn't mean it's not explicit
there
01:37 < uriel> skelterjohn: sure, but that is not what bfrank2 was implying
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01:38 < uriel> the point is, there is only one possible way to interprest x
:= y
01:38 < skelterjohn> yes
01:38 < skelterjohn> I feel like no one is actually disagreeing.  This
conversation is confusing me.
01:39 < bfrank2> I think aliases are part of why it was confusing
01:39 < uriel> skelterjohn: sure, sorry, lack of sleep and a cold is making
me dense
01:39 < bfrank2> heh
01:39 < uriel> bfrank2: what aliases?
01:39 < skelterjohn> "byte is a common alias for uint8"
01:39 < skelterjohn> says that in the lang spec
01:39 < bfrank2> well, and my complete lack of knowledge on how to use this
language
01:39 < skelterjohn> which I take to mean it's different than "type byte
uint8"
01:40 < bfrank2> yeah, my bad, I should read that before asking any other
stupid question
01:40 < skelterjohn> expecting you to devour the lang spec is unreasonable
01:40 <+iant> skelterjohn: yes, it's different from "type byte uint8" and
the difference is detectable when using type reflection
01:40 < skelterjohn> this is a good forum for that sort of question
01:40 < skelterjohn> iant: is there a way to create your own aliases?
01:41 < uriel> hmmm..  I had noticed that myself, that sounds a bit
confusing then..
01:41 <+iant> no, although we've discussed it off and on
01:41 * uriel would rather have no aliases
01:41 < uriel> they don't seem to add much to the language
01:41 < skelterjohn> i agree
01:41 <+iant> yeah, that's kind of why they aren't in there now
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01:41 < uriel> (well, I guess int being an alias of a type that makes sense
on this arch does make sense)
01:41 < skelterjohn> but having only one alias, defined by the language, is
confusing
01:42 < skelterjohn> though not overly so - but consistency is comforting ;)
01:42 <+iant> it is a little weird, I agree, but nobody has really felt
compelled to change it
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01:42 < musty> hmm, new syntax x[lo:] is shorthand for x[lo:len(x)].
01:42 < uriel> skelterjohn: I agree
01:42 < skelterjohn> easy to ignore if you don't like it
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01:43 < sladegen> type bit uint1
01:43 < skelterjohn> heh
01:43 < uriel> sladegen: haha
01:44 < uriel> btw, I like the new semicolon proposal sounds like it might
clear up things a bit, but i will miss the string concatenation...
01:44 < uriel> but it is probably a non-issue
01:46 < uriel> iant: what would be the biggest problem with having type byte
uint8?  I guess a few things might break, but doesn't sound like a big loss..
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01:47 < adiabatic> Aren't there some systems where type byte int8 would be
preferred, or have they all gone the way of the dodo?
01:47 <+iant> I think the biggest problem would be that code that uses type
reflection and needs to handle byte values would need to have an extra case
01:48 <+iant> adiabatic: it's much simpler to reason about it if byte
doesn't change signedness
01:48 < adiabatic> iant: wholly agreed
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01:49 < alexsuraci> i noticed a point where type aliases would've really
come in handy when i was working on my parser lib
01:49 <+iant> alexsuraci: really?  how so?
01:50 < alexsuraci> iant: in the lib, I have, say, "type Parser func(Vessel)
(Output, bool)"
01:50 < skelterjohn> aha
01:50 < alexsuraci> trouble is when defining a function there's no way to
say it's a Parser
01:50 <+iant> I see the problem, but how would type aliases help solve it?
01:50 < alexsuraci> i worked around it by having functions that return
parsers (also helps with infinitely recursive parser combinators)
01:51 < alexsuraci> in this case, certain functions in the lib take a
flexible number of args and reflect them as Parsers
01:51 < alexsuraci> but parsers defined externally will be a "func (Vessel)
(Output, bool)"
01:51 < alexsuraci> thus, although the types are equivalent, they won't
match
01:51 < alexsuraci> if types were just aliases it wouldn't matter there,
would it?
01:51 < alexsuraci> rather, if Parser was just an alias
01:52 <+iant> could you use an explicit type conversion?  the types should
be conversion compatible
01:52 < alexsuraci> hang on, let me reopen my code as a refresher
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01:53 < alexsuraci> iant: it goes over the args (as a StructValue), and does
"parser := p.Field(i).Interface().(Parser)"
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01:53 <+iant> yeah, something like that, maybe
01:54 < alexsuraci> yea that's what was failing
01:54 <+iant> wait, sorry
01:54 <+iant> I mean something like: Parser(p.Field(i).Interface().(func
(...) ...))
01:54 < alexsuraci> yeah, was just gonna guess that
01:54 < alexsuraci> i'll try it out
01:54 <+iant> good luck, I have to sign off now
01:54 < alexsuraci> thanks, see ya
01:55 < bfrank2> is there something that can read files a line at a time?
01:55 < bfrank2> ReadFile reads the whole thing into a string
01:55 < bfrank2> or do I have to split the lines apart or something?
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01:58 < alexsuraci> iant: if you're still there, just tested and that just
flips around what happens - Parsers fail, but func (...) ...  matches
01:58 < alexsuraci> perhaps i'll take it to a relevant ML thread ;)
01:59 < uriel> alexsuraci: I think I'm missing the point, so this might be a
really stupid suggestion, but why not make Parser an interface?
01:59 < uriel> an interface with a single parse function
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02:00 < alexsuraci> that would make them a bit harder to make
02:00 < alexsuraci> right now they just have to be a function that takes an
input and returns an output and "success" bool
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02:01 < alexsuraci> plus functions are just sort of natural with a library
like this
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02:02 < uriel> yea, I agree
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02:03 < uriel> maybe some kind of sugar to wrap single functions as an
interface or something might be nice, but i'm talking out of my ass
02:03 < alexsuraci> i got around it by having functions that return Parsers
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02:04 < alexsuraci> there the type is explicit, plus that can be used for
infinitely-nested stuff
02:04 < alexsuraci> so sort of a neat pattern that emerged from a language
limitation :P
02:04 < uriel> heh :)
02:05 < alexsuraci> it pretty much just uses currying everywhere
02:05 < alexsuraci> almost, anyway
02:06 < uriel> alexsuraci: still, might be worth bringing up the issue on
the mailing list, it certainly would be more intersting than most of the stuff
that is posted there :)
02:06 < alexsuraci> e.g.  Satisfy(unicode.IsLower) returns a Parser that
parses any character that is a unicode lowercase
02:06 < alexsuraci> haha, sure.
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02:24 < alexsuraci> uriel: posted
02:24 < alexsuraci> title: "An odd case for type aliasing"
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02:33 < uriel> cool
02:33 < uriel> (for the record, I'm still in favor of getting rid of
aliasing completely)
02:36 < uriel> "Why anyone writes anything other than assembler is beyond
me."
02:36 < uriel> hahaha :))
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02:39 < alexsuraci> haha
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03:01 < alexsuraci> oo, I like the semicolons proposal.
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03:06 < asyncster> hey, let's say I have a StructValue . Is there a way to
get a PtrValue to the underlying struct?
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03:15 < fgb>   for !foo() {
03:15 < fgb> ...  I guess waiting on channels is not that obvious, huh
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03:21 < uriel> asyncster2: &yourval?
03:21 < uriel> fgb: where is that?
03:22 < fgb> the list
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03:23 < uriel> fgb: hah
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03:30 < skelterjohn> uriel: referring to my post about busy waiting, no
doubt
03:31 < skelterjohn> If someone can come up with a less busy-waity kind of
way to do what I want, I'm all ears.
03:31 < uriel> as fgb said, what is wrong with channels?
03:31 < uriel> if you are busy waiting, you are doing it wrong
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03:32 < skelterjohn> the context is: I want to read from a channel, or abort
if another channel is closed
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03:32 < skelterjohn> not every event that I might want to wait for can
easily be sent on a channel
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03:33 < uriel> skelterjohn: select
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03:33 < uriel> what events can't be sent on a channel?
03:34 < skelterjohn> how can i get the event that "Someone closed channel X"
to be sent on channel Y without adding extra infrastructure?
03:34 < uriel> what does 'closed channel' mean?
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03:34 < skelterjohn> i don't want to require that when the other channel is
closed, the programmer *must* send a nonsense message along a second channel
03:34 < uriel> just have a channel to send any notification you like
03:34 < skelterjohn> close(thechannel)
03:35 < fgb> not closed, we usually use waitchannels
03:35 < uriel> why do you want to close the channel?  uhu
03:35 * uriel just doesn't get it
03:35 < skelterjohn> 1) does it really matter?  it's a valid thing to want
to do
03:35 < skelterjohn> 2)
http://code.google.com/p/goconc/source/browse/fold.go
03:36 < uriel> skelterjohn: no, to busy-wait just doesn't make any sense,
just send events over channels, that is the way Go works, and there is nothing
wrong with it
03:36 < fgb> ok, it's just one of those paradigm things
03:36 -!- turutosiya [n=turutosi@219.106.251.65] has joined #go-nuts
03:36 < fgb> the !foo() stuff assumes you either have a global or static
variable
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nos sabores manga com laranja e abacaxi com menta!  Experimente!"]
03:36 < fgb> that you're checking or something that's going to happen
03:36 < uriel> so, listen on a channel and send that over a channel when it
happens
03:36 < fgb> why just don't you notify in a channel when the condition
changed?
03:37 < skelterjohn> because "I" am not the one changing the condition
03:37 < skelterjohn> it's the anonymous developer
03:37 < skelterjohn> this is what I want to do:
03:37 < skelterjohn> pass Fold() a channel
03:37 < skelterjohn> fold does stuff with the things that come on that
channel, until that channel is closed
03:37 < skelterjohn> once that channel closes it can return a value
03:38 < fgb> you can have more than 1 channel..
03:38 < fgb> in anycase it's a paradigm thing
03:38 < skelterjohn> sure, but that is a bulky api
03:38 < skelterjohn> it would be nice to just wait for it to close
03:38 < skelterjohn> since that is something i can check, built into the
language
03:38 < uriel> what fgb said, pass Fold two channels, read from one, and
have Fold send something down the channel when it is done
03:39 < uriel> skelterjohn: do not close channels, just send *stuff* down
channels
03:39 < fgb> the function waiting doesn't even need a loop, it just blocks
until the function sends "I'm done!"
03:40 < skelterjohn> what if i get a Vector iterator
03:40 < skelterjohn> i haven't examined Vector, but I believe the iterator
is a channel that sends the values in the vector
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03:40 < skelterjohn> and closes when done
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03:40 < skelterjohn> i can pass that to Fold()
03:40 < uriel> so?
03:40 < skelterjohn> how would I know when the iterator is done?
03:40 < skelterjohn> Fold knows, because the channel closes
03:40 < uriel> skelterjohn: by having Fold send you a 'done' message down a
channel!
03:41 < skelterjohn> no - Fold doesn't decide when it's done
03:41 < skelterjohn> the thing that I give to fold
03:41 < skelterjohn> the input channel
03:41 < uriel> uhu?
03:41 < skelterjohn> when it is exhausted, then fold can finish
03:41 < skelterjohn> otherwise fold might have to deal with more values
03:41 < uriel> Fold() doesn't know when it is done?  are you frking serious?
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03:42 < skelterjohn> Fold(), as I implemented it, is a function that takes a
channel and a function that will combine two items from the channel
03:42 < uriel> how can it not know?  it has to stop reading from the
channel!
03:42 < skelterjohn> it stops reading when the channel is closed
03:42 < uriel> so?
03:42 < uriel> fine, and then sends 'done' down another channel
03:42 < dho> skelterjohn: why not just use for !closed(chan) { <-chan }
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03:42 < uriel> dho: that is just wrong
03:43 < skelterjohn> first, i'd need to read the values off of chan
03:43 < skelterjohn> the last one i'd get would be zeroed
03:43 < skelterjohn> how do i know if its valid, or i got zero because the
chan was closed?
03:43 < fgb> errors?
03:43 < skelterjohn> checking closed immediately after is no good, because i
could have gotten a valid zero and have the chan close before i can check
03:43 < skelterjohn> fgb: ?
03:44 < dho> uriel: why
03:44 < fgb> you return and error when an error happens
03:44 < uriel> dho: busy waiting is just wrong
03:44 < skelterjohn> but a zero isn't an error
03:44 < dho> uriel: that's busy waiting?
03:44 < skelterjohn> how could i even tell if it was an error?
03:44 < fgb> skelterjohn, why are you usign callbacks in the first place?
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03:44 < uriel> dho: calling !closed() in a loop
03:44 < skelterjohn> fgb: what are you referring to now
03:44 < skelterjohn> uriel: there was a <- chan in there, so it wasn't
busy waiting
03:44 < dho> uriel: where you're reading the channel you're figureing out if
it's closed?
03:45 < dho> uriel: the !closed is the condition, the loop blocks.
03:45 < dho> it's not a busy wait.
03:45 < fgb> ok, who cares if the channel is closed?
03:45 < skelterjohn> Fold() does?
03:45 < fgb> if you have to check that, then the logic is all wrong
03:45 < skelterjohn> why?  by definition?
03:45 < fgb> yes
03:45 < uriel> skelterjohn: well, if Fold() does care if the channel it is
closed, it should *know* when it is closed, and can say 'done'
03:46 < fgb> skelterjohn, who closes the channel?
03:46 < uriel> and what problem are you trying to solve with this
arrangement anyway?
03:46 < skelterjohn> the code that creates it
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03:46 < fgb> the one that closes the channel should notify the other
goroutines that are using that channel
03:46 < fgb> ...
03:46 < skelterjohn> uriel: the Fold() problem
03:46 < uriel> skelterjohn: what is 'the Fold() problem'?
03:46 < dho> skelterjohn: also, that's not true re: closed
03:47 < dho> skelterjohn: it will return a zero value and then closed will
return true.
03:47 < skelterjohn> the problem of implementing the fold operation...a list
processing function
03:47 < fgb> skelterjohn, sorry, but what's the problem you're trying to
solve?
03:47 < fgb> (it all starts here...)
03:47 < skelterjohn> :) alright
03:47 < dho> if you get a valid 0, then the channel closes, you will still
have another 0 to read before closed() returns true.
03:47 < skelterjohn> dho: eh?
03:47 < skelterjohn> first: what is fold()
03:47 < uriel> skelterjohn: what is the problem?  you could implement the
fold by having a function that takes one channel and returns another channel
03:47 < dho> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Close_and_closed
03:48 < skelterjohn> why would it return another channel
03:48 < uriel> skelterjohn: the channel with the 'folded' values!
03:48 < skelterjohn> there is only one folded value
03:48 < uriel> it works just as a filter
03:48 < skelterjohn> let me explain fold
03:48 < skelterjohn> it's not a filter
03:48 < uriel> well, then even simpler
03:48 < skelterjohn> if i fold the list [1,2,3,4,5] with the function +, I
get 10
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03:49 < uriel> oh, that, again, even simpler
03:49 < uriel> take a channel, and a return channel
03:49 < skelterjohn> [1,2,3,4,5] -> [3 ,3,4,5] -> [6 ,4,5] -> etc
03:49 < alexsuraci> wouldn't that be 15?
03:49 < skelterjohn> yes
03:49 < skelterjohn> not so good at arirthmetic
03:49 < uriel> do your thing, and when you are done, send the result down
the result channel
03:49 < alexsuraci> haha
03:49 < xerox> fold doesn't look like it's easy to parallalelize in general
03:49 < dho> alexsuraci: base 15
03:49 < dho> :)
03:50 < alexsuraci> lol
03:50 < skelterjohn> so, the way I did it, is I have a "ready" channel.
first thing is I dump all of the input channel onto the ready channel
03:50 < skelterjohn> then I grab pairs of values off the ready channel,
apply the function to them, and put them back on the channel
03:50 < skelterjohn> with appropriate goroutines to make it go in parallel
nicely
03:50 < skelterjohn> http://code.google.com/p/goconc/source/browse/fold.go
03:50 < xerox> skelterjohn: the idea is to do one fold in another thread?
03:51 < skelterjohn> each application of the function to pairs of values
runs in its own thread
03:51 < dho> skelterjohn: grab pairs?  fold [1,2,3,4,5] with function /
doesn't work like that
03:51 < skelterjohn> and i have a counter to keep track of how many values
are being processed and are nt back on the ready queue yet
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03:51 < skelterjohn> how does fold with / work?
03:51 < xerox> dho: well spotted, associativity of the operation is vital
03:52 < dho> skelterjohn: you divide.
03:52 < xerox> you have two different fold, foldr and foldl
03:52 < fgb> skelterjohn, I don't get the problem you're trying to solve,
otherwise I'll sketch you a solution...
03:52 < skelterjohn> well, maybe i got fold wrong
03:52 < xerox> see http://foldr.com/ and http://foldl.com/
03:52 < xerox> (for a visual explanation)
03:52 < skelterjohn> didn't realize that you could do it with non
commutative operators
03:52 < skelterjohn> i understand how to do this when order matters
03:52 < xerox> oh, foldl.com is bad
03:53 < alexsuraci> aw.
03:53 < skelterjohn> i figured it just worked like reduce
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03:53 < xerox> skelterjohn: it's not commutativity, it's associativity here
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03:53 < skelterjohn> arithmetic again, remind me of which is which?
03:53 < xerox> namely the relation between (a*b)*c and a*(b*c)
03:53 < skelterjohn> right
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03:53 < skelterjohn> i figured fold just didn't make sense if you couldn't
reoder them
03:53 < skelterjohn> certainly doesn't for my funciton
03:53 < alexsuraci> xerox: here you go ;)
http://web.archive.org/web/20060327112912/http://foldl.com/
03:53 < skelterjohn> function
03:54 < dho> ok.
03:54 < xerox> alexsuraci: nice :)
03:54 < dho> well if you have that guarantee, then you can do it.
03:54 < xerox> so you have two folds, but neither is easy to parallelize.
03:54 < skelterjohn> i agree
03:54 < skelterjohn> so my function shouldn't be called fold
03:55 < skelterjohn> i still think it's an interesting function
03:55 < dho> xerox: no, if you guarantee correct associativity, you can do
it in pairs like that, and that can be parallelized easily
03:55 < skelterjohn> call it foldLR
03:55 < skelterjohn> or something
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03:55 < skelterjohn> or reduce_with_no_identity
03:56 < xerox> makes sense to call it only fold if you stipulate the
contract with the caller that the operation is associative
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03:56 < skelterjohn> either way, requiring the user to send a message
through a separate channel to signify the end of the inputs is not good for two
reasons
03:56 < skelterjohn> 1) lots of extra typing - the information is already
there
03:56 < xerox> also the list does need not to be empty, or you have to pass
in a default value for that case
03:56 < xerox> (which is what foldr and foldl do)
03:56 < dho> skelterjohn: i don't see why the !closed() won't work for you
03:56 < skelterjohn> 2) sometimes you get an iterator channel and that's it,
you don't know where it came from
03:57 < xerox> (but that in your case is quite arbitrary where to put)
03:57 < skelterjohn> dho: if you're right that the last value read before
closed(chan) returns true is always nil, then that will work
03:57 < skelterjohn> i didn't think that was the case though
03:57 < dho> skelterjohn: it's in the language spec
03:57 < skelterjohn> i almost want to think it's a typo
03:57 < dho> it always returns the zero value for the type over the channel
03:58 < skelterjohn> i'll run a test
03:58 < dho> and closed() will not return true until that value is read
03:58 < skelterjohn> so val, isClosed := <- myChan, closed(myChan)
03:59 < skelterjohn> if isClosed is true, i can disregard val
03:59 < skelterjohn> is that what you mean?
03:59 < skelterjohn> gonna test that
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04:00 < dho> i guess, theoretically yes.
04:00 < dho> if not, it's a bug.
04:00 < skelterjohn> or a doc typo
04:00 < dho> no, that's the intention.
04:00 < dho> otherwise closed() isn't useful
04:01 < skelterjohn> isn't *as* useful, perhaps
04:01 < dho> it's completely unuseful, because you can never make the
guarantee that you've finished processing the values of the channel
04:01 < dho> anyway
04:01 < dho> yes, test
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04:02 < skelterjohn> works as advertised (by dho)
04:02 < skelterjohn> that makes things simpler
04:03 < skelterjohn> thanks for pointing this out :)
04:03 < dho> no problem
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04:05 * dho needs a better font and sleep
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04:21 < joeyadams> nice, #go-nuts has about nine times as many users as #go
04:21 < joeyadams> Anyway, I'm looking in src/pkg/runtime/chan.c, and the
basic algorithm behind it is close to what I expected
04:22 < joeyadams> one interesting thing I noticed in chanrecv (among
others) is the asynch goto loop.
04:23 < joeyadams> I expected a condition variable here.  Instead, I see
unlock(&chanlock); gosched(); lock(&chanlock);
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04:23 < joeyadams> I suppose that's much like a condition variable (it
spins, but it tries to let the CPU do other stuff)
04:23 <+danderson> looks like it just yields to the goroutine scheduler
04:24 <+danderson> presumably having registered interest in reading from the
channel first
04:24 <+danderson> that way, the OS thread can be reused by another
goroutine while the current one is blocked
04:25 <+danderson> eventually, something else will write, and the scheduler
can arrange rendezvous
04:25 < joeyadams> right
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04:25 < joeyadams> so I guess it has no notion of broadcast?
04:25 <+danderson> so, yeah, similar to a condition variable.  The
implementation with yielding to the scheduler is just rather plain.
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04:25 <+danderson> in what sense?
04:25 < joeyadams> e.g.  pthread_cond_broadcast (which explicitly tells
waiting threads (or in this case, goroutines) that the channel has data)
04:25 <+danderson> well, goroutines are not threads
04:26 <+danderson> broadcast uses the kernel notion of threads to make the
right threads runnable
04:26 <+danderson> but with many goroutines sharing and hopping between OS
threads, how would the broadcast know what to awaken?
04:27 <+danderson> I don't know how the unblocking is implemented in the Go
runtime, but I suspect that it's a similar mechanism, but implemented one level up
in the stack
04:27 <+danderson> broadcast in the OS, in the end, just walks a list of
threads
04:27 < joeyadams> It could hypothetically have each channel have a bit
that, when set to true, indicates it can go
04:27 <+danderson> same for unblocking a channel read
04:27 < joeyadams> But I'm guessing that wouldn't do much good
04:28 < joeyadams> do chansend and chanrecv run in goroutine scope?
04:28 < joeyadams> As in, would a goroutine call chansend?
04:28 <+danderson> no idea, sorry.
04:28 < joeyadams> just wondering
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04:28 <+danderson> (despite the voice, I'm not a go developer, I just lurk
around and kick off spammers)
04:28 < joeyadams> lol
04:29 < joeyadams> I'm like that in other places
04:29 <+danderson> and on that note, it's 5:30am, my parser is being stupid,
and I have a meeting this morning.  Time for a nap.
04:29 < joeyadams> What's fun is acting like a go developer by correctly
answering questions by looking directly in the source :D
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04:29 < joeyadams> anyway, good night
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04:30 <+danderson> thx, and good luck with your code walking :)
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05:10 < skelterjohn> Alright, for the no one who's still awake, I fixed
Fold() to not do any busy waiting.  It's much nicer this way.
05:13 < ohday> Amaranth, hi.
05:13 < uriel> skelterjohn: how did you do it?
05:14 < skelterjohn> first, I used dho's enlightenment and read from the
inputs, and knew when i was done, without busywaiting
05:14 < skelterjohn> once i was done, i sent a signal along a channel
reserved for that purpose
05:14 < skelterjohn> kept track of the number of inputs read, and used the
knowledge that i'll fold exactly one time less than that number
05:15 < skelterjohn> so in the folding loop, if all inputs are read and
folds == inputCount-1, you'reDone()
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05:16 < uriel> nice
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05:17 < skelterjohn> it's a lot slicker this way, aesthetically
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05:33 < skelterjohn> whenever i'm up late coding and my vision starts to get
blurry, I feel really cool, like Randy from snowcrash
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05:42 < skelterjohn> when i said snowcrash, i meant cryptonomicon
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06:25 < carllerche> Is there a Go package for associating process signals to
funcs?
06:28 < uriel> carllerche: at the moment AFAIK there is no good way to
handle signals, there is an issue about it
06:29 < carllerche> uriel: alright, thanks for that.  I'm guessing it won't
be too long
06:29 < uriel> http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=71
06:29 < uriel> well, avoiding singals is usually a good idea
06:29 < carllerche> uriel: what do you mean?
06:30 < uriel> I mean that signals are always trouble
06:31 < uriel> specially in concurrent environments
06:31 < carllerche> it's true, but how would you handle restart requests
elegantly, etc...?
06:31 < carllerche> reload, etc..
06:32 < uriel> over a pipe?
06:32 < jessta> signal handling doesn't seem to be much different to what a
goroutine would be doing anyway
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06:33 < uriel> jessta: goroutines communicate over channels, signals are
totally random
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06:34 < jessta> signals are, on this signal jump here and do such and such
and jump back
06:35 < jessta> the issue with them is that the change program state in
unexpected places
06:36 < jessta> *they change
06:36 < uriel> so, they just break everything for the most part, they are
like exceptions, but much worse
06:36 < jessta> well, you limit their ability to change shared data
structures
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06:36 < carllerche> uriel: so, how do you handle stuff like SIGHUP?  (I'm a
noob, so I'm not super familiar about how to use pipes over signals)
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06:37 < jessta> a signal could spawn a goroutine to handling it
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06:38 < uriel> carllerche: as I said, don't use sighup, use a pipe to
communicate with your program and send commands
06:38 < uriel> (or even better, a file systems, but on *nix that is just not
practical)
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06:39 < carllerche> something to think about
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06:42 < uriel> I'm sure there will be a reasonable way to handle signals
soon, but in general it is just a good idea to avoid them
06:42 < uriel> I think it was Dennis Ritchie that said long ago signals
should only be used to kill programs
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06:58 < nf> isn't it not a problem of signals, but the way they're handled?
it is possible to ensure your SIGHUP handler changes the program state in a
concurrency-safe way.
07:00 < nf> eg, sending a "config reload" message via a channel to a main
loop
07:00 < nf> (forgive me if this is obvious)
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07:07 < uriel> nf: maybe, the way I'd like to see it is a way to get signals
via a channel...
07:07 < uriel> nf: I'm sure there are other ways, but it is tricky business
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12:02 < JPascal> Hi all
12:03 < JPascal> I try bind C function in Go. I took error on "make" ->
cannot use command (type string) as type *_C_char in function argument
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12:04 < ruam> hi everyone.
12:05 < JPascal> hi
12:05 < ruam> the libraries seem to be coming along rather rapidly.  any
itches that need scratched in that respect right now?
12:07 < dagle> Graphics libs I think.
12:07 < Vova> what does the last go update contains?
12:07 < ruam> dagle: what, like opengl bindings?
12:07 < Boggy-B> graphics libraries would be nice :)
12:08 < vegai> there's the draw lib
12:09 < dagle> And how complete is draw?
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12:10 < dpb> is it out of exp already?
12:10 < JPascal> I try bind C function in Go. I took error on "make" ->
cannot use command (type string) as type *_C_char in function argument :(
12:10 < Boggy-B> i was talking to the guys work work with KROC today, about
the strange way GO works with multiple cores
12:12 < Boggy-B> but they were talking about Go -> Occam conversions
12:12 < Boggy-B> which would be interesting
12:12 < ruam> Boggy-B: what's strange about it?
12:12 < Boggy-B> ruam: strange = i was told it was crap, but have no idea if
that is true :)
12:13 < ruam> it's just untested, AFAIK.
12:13 < ruam> given how slow the uptake on multicore has been software side,
a little experimentation won't kill anyone.
12:13 < Boggy-B> i agree
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12:15 < ruam> frankly the only complaints I've heard about Go have been pure
conjecture/thought experiment.  What little data I've seen against it is pure
implementation stuff.  It's nonsense.  Better to play and build and see what comes
of it.
12:15 < Boggy-B> :)
12:17 < ruam> btw, the composite literals are a nice touch, I'm just glad
they didn't use colons as the separator inside the braces though.  My python brain
would've screamed "DICTIONARY, IT'S A KEY:VALUE STORE", instead of, "oh look,
members of blah"
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13:23 < youngbull> have anyone read any news on generics in go?
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14:00 < JPascal> I try bind C function in Go. I took error on "make" ->
cannot use command (type string) as type *_C_char in function argument :(
14:02 < dagle> JPascal: Tried the ML instead?
14:02 < JPascal> ML?
14:02 < dagle> Mailing list.
14:03 < JPascal> :)
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15:25 < bfrank2> does go have a way to read files, a line at a time?
15:26 < jb55> making a multiplayer javascript game using websockets and a Go
server, should be fun :) http://ws.jb55.com
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15:32 < jb55> vi .gitconfig
15:32 < jb55> oops
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15:52 < neilk> the go sieve of erasthones just blew my mind
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16:13 < BrianAnthony> hey =]
16:13 < BrianAnthony> how does one parse an xml document with go?
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16:19 < alexsuraci> BrianAnthony: this may be of interest -
http://research.swtch.com/2009/12/data-structures-go-programs.html
16:19 <+iant> BrianAnthony: there is an xml package
16:20 < BrianAnthony> thanks a lot!
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17:32 <+iant> does anybody here hate the semicolon proposal?
17:35 < fgb> no
17:35 < alexsuraci> i like it.  all or nothing is the way to go, and i'd
rather nothing.
17:35 < dho> I understand the dissidence, but I don't agree with it
17:35 < xerox> what is the proposal about?
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17:36 < dho> xerox: semicolons are being removed and there is thus some
ambiguity added to the grammar by removing them.
17:36 < alexsuraci> xerox: simplifying the parser/etc.  by making them
optional in most areas, rather than some
17:36 <+iant> xerox:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/5ee32b588d10f2e9
17:36 < dho> it's explained in Rob's email on the list.
17:36 < dho> yes, that
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17:39 < alexsuraci> what is the stuff on the language shootout run on?
releases or the repo?
17:42 < youngbull> this semicolon proposal seems to me like the one in
javascript, it introduces a whole lot of errors...
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17:43 <+danderson> iant: I think a large amount of churn is caused by the
bikeshed principle.
17:43 < mpl> youngbull: if you read again, rob precises it's not at all like
in js.
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17:43 <+danderson> Compared to implementing exceptions or generics and other
things, everyone feels they can chime in with an opinion on semicolons :)
17:43 <+iant> youngbull: it's definitely not who Javascript works
17:44 <+danderson> (not saying everyone should shut up, just saying that a
large quantity of apparent controversy does not imply a controversial change)
17:44 <+iant> danderson: sure, I'm not concerned by mild dislike, but if
there is something deeply wrong with it I'd like to make sure we don't miss the
message
17:45 < dho> There are a lot of people who don't like using python because
it dictates the format your code must follow
17:45 <+danderson> they'll hate Go then :)
17:45 <+danderson> all style is bound by law in gofmt
17:46 < dho> (It's not as bad as those people make it sound)
17:46 < fgb> the terminators are still there, you just don't seee them
17:46 < mycroftiv> i wish we could go back to the principle of making
whitespace neutrality the prime directive because linebreaks are always the first
thing to get messed up as code is copied and pasted around
17:46 < fgb> damn, see
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17:49 < AndrewBC> seems more like an editor's problem to me
17:49 < fgb> my editor works just fine
17:49 < AndrewBC> responding to mycroftiv.  :p
17:49 < dho> If you have to run gofmt over your code before you compile it,
that's fine.  But to some degree I feel like it's now possible for people to spend
a fair amount of time debugging stuff because they forget to run gofmt and they've
got one of these constructs that you guys are saying ``doesn't appear often''
17:49 < dho> You all have the most Go code written by far, so currently
you're the authority, but if Go were ever to reach the number of people who use it
daily, and if it is ever something that's taught in schools, minor gotchas are a
really big deal, just because they're so subtly inconvenient
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17:49 < dho> ERUNON
17:49 < Zaba> go tchas?
17:49 < fgb> iant, to me looks like makes the grammar rules clearer and from
the user POV is just a matter of taste
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17:51 < dho> And having worked with code written by college kids and
electrical engineers who both (in my experience) have horribly broken code
formatting, those four or five ambiguities are not something I'd expect to see
infrequently.
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17:52 < dho> iant: Perhaps it isn't a bad idea for 6g to attempt to spawn
gofmt before attempting to compile?
17:52 <+iant> dho: it's pretty hard to write the ambiguous codes because the
types have to be exactly right
17:53 <+iant> I'm not sure running gofmt would make much difference, it
won't join lines or insert semicolons
17:54 < dho> warnings if those types are detected then
17:55 < fgb> (2:54:19 PM) dho: iant: Perhaps it isn't a bad idea for 6g to
attempt to spawn gofmt before attempting to compile?
17:55 < fgb> one job, one tool?
17:55 < dho> the kencc toolchain is terse enough that people will probably
pay attention to those sorts of warnings.
17:55 < rog> is it just me or does anyone else find themselves want to do:
while x := something; condition(x) { } ?
17:55 < youngbull> I think that this will make programming in go quite
complex.  In both the case of Python, and C, there is no doubt about what will
happen when you break something up in several lines and how to do it, however this
way there is some uncertainty involved...
17:55 < rog> s/want/wanting/
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17:56 <+iant> youngbull: where is the uncertainty?  there is really only one
rule to remember
17:56 < rog> currently i do: for x:=something; condition(x); x=something {}
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17:56 < youngbull> is that one rule: "don't do it?"
17:56 < rog> but it's a pattern that repeats itself...
17:58 <+iant> youngbull: the rule is that the end of the line ends a
statement, unless the last token on the line is an operator like + or -
17:58 < youngbull> iant: oh ok...
18:01 < youngbull> iant: but then there are the rules that the gofmt
imposes...
18:01 < fgb> rog, I almost never use while loops...
18:01 <+iant> the formatting imposed by gofmt is not the same as the
requirements of the language spec
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18:02 < rog> fgb: in C (or limbo) i quite often do: while((x := foo()) !=
nil){ ...  }
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18:03 < rog> in the same way that in C i can do if ((x := foo()) != nil) {
}, which turns into the go: if x := foo; x != nil { }
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18:05 < fgb> rog, I don't like side effects in conditions, but I get your
point
18:06 < rog> it's an idiom - and easy to read once you're used to it
18:06 < youngbull> iant: yea but since it will format differently, compiling
with or without it makes or breaks it, but of course those things are separate,
and so has nothing to do with the language really
18:06 <+iant> I'm not sure that is true, though; gofmt should never rewrite
a program in a way that changes the meaning
18:06 <+iant> that is, gofmt will preserve the existing line breaks
18:07 <+iant> the proposal is for gofmt to remove semicolons that are no
longer required, but that won't change the meaning of the program
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18:08 < fgb> rog, I know specially when reading a whole file
while((n=read(fd, buf, sizeof(buf))) > 0){}
18:09 < fgb> so, you win
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18:12 < rog> fgb: yeah, that's a particularly good example of why i want a
similar idiom in Go
18:12 < rog> fgb: you have to stutter it...
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18:13 < rog> fgb; or use a for {...  break ...} loop
18:13 < fgb> rog, that tends to be my weapon of choice
18:14 < fgb> but I find myself typing the while() unconsciously, the idiom
is quite strong...
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19:14 < rog> is there a printf verb that'll allow me to print just the
address of a channel?
19:14 < rog> i thought %p would do it, but apparently not
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19:15 < xerox> maybe %v
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19:16 < rog> interesting, so it does.  should've tried it - i expected it to
be a little more verbose
19:16 < rog> mind you, i think that %p should work for anything pointerlike
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19:17 < ukl> hello.  Given Tree is a struct, how can I 'make' (or probably
'new' but that's a strange verbification) an empty [4]*Tree ? (Like, an empty
array of pointers to a Tree struct?)
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19:18 < ukl> new([4]*Tree) fails as does new([4]Tree), both don't really
seem like the right thing anyway.  make([4]*Tree) is refused by 6g, too.
19:18 < rog> make([]*Tree, 4)
19:18 < fluffle> http://gopaste.org/view/p0mK2 # can anyone help me with
this?
19:18 < ukl> rog: thanks
19:18 < rog> or just var x [4]*Tree
19:18 < rog> if you want an array not a slice
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19:20 < ukl> rog: cannot use make([]*main.Tree25, 4) (type []*Tree25) as
type [4]*Tree25 in function argument <<< I do need an array, but I'd like
to pass it to another function directly
19:20 < ukl> (without some "var x")
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19:20 < fluffle> ukl: i think you need to use [...] to indicate you want the
underlying array rather than a slice
19:20 < ukl> hmm, I could change the other occurances of arrays to slices,
probably
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19:21 < fluffle> but using slices is probably a better idea
19:21 < ukl> fluffle: [...] ? in what way?
19:21 < ukl> ok, I'll try converting to slices first :)
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19:21 < fluffle> make([...]*Tree, 4);
19:21 < ukl> fluffle: thanks
19:22 < ukl> slicification worked, thanks rog & fluffle.
19:22 < dho> fluffle: oh hello
19:22 < rog> fluffle: i'm surprised if that works
19:23 < fluffle> rog: well, it doesn't, that's why i'm here ;)
19:23 < fluffle> dho: ohai :)
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19:24 < Maxdamantus> Hm..  Just reading the tutorial atm, but quickly, does
the import and const with () work with all similar keywords in all contexts, or is
it only in the file scope or something.
19:24 < Maxdamantus> File scope is probably a bad term.
19:25 < Maxdamantus> const (foo = "bar"; baz = "blah";)
19:25 < rog> i think so
19:25 < fluffle> rog: the thing is, the "Method expressions" section of the
language spec indicates that I should be able to turn a Method of a Type into a
Function Type representing that Method
19:25 < fluffle> and this, I *should* be able to then add it to my map
19:26 < rog> fluffle: they haven't implemented that yet (it's documented)
19:26 < fluffle> but i keep getting "must call IRCConn.h_connected" from the
compiler
19:26 < fluffle> rog: aawwwughghgr
19:26 < fluffle> that explains the fail, then ;)
19:26 < rog> i'm surprised the error msg isn't more informative tho
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19:28 < fluffle> rog: if hte parser/compiler doens't understand that syntax
then it's going to assume you are trying to call the method and failing
19:28 < fluffle> ah well
19:28 < fluffle> i'll leave setupHandlers() full of anonymous functions for
now then
19:28 < fluffle> \o/
19:29 < neilk> how do/can i concatenate slices?
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19:30 < fluffle> neilk: allocate a new one big enough to hold them both and
copy them in :)
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19:32 < neilk> ok
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19:51 < dho> ew.
19:51 < dho> iant: this label: ;\n} stuff is really gross :(
19:52 <+iant> it's kind of gross but note that "int f() { label: }" also
fails to compile in C
19:53 <+iant> (with or without a \n)
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19:54 < dho> ok, fair point.
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19:57 < skelterjohn> Why does go support goto?
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19:57 < dho> because goto is not evil.
19:58 < skelterjohn> some consider it harmful
19:58 < dho> bad programmers are harmful
19:58 < dho> goto is not
19:59 < mycroftiv> citation: Knuth, 1974 ("Structured Programming with Goto
Statements")
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19:59 < carllerche> I'm having an error returned from TCPConn Read, and i'm
not sure which one it is.  the message is "Dest write: write
tcp:127.0.0.1:62386->127.0.0.1:3000: broken pipe" but i can't map that to an
os.(error)
19:59 < neilk> i tried to like it, but go is currently disgusting to me
20:00 < neilk> :(
20:00 < carllerche> it's not os.EAGAIN
20:00 <+iant> carllerche: I think broken pipe is os.EPIPE
20:01 < dho> yeah but i thought that came back up the network stuff
differently
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20:01 <+iant> that could be true....
20:01 < vsmatck1> There's a Dijkstra article called "goto considered
harmful".  I have the impression a lot of people rely on the authority of Dijkstra
for the idea that goto is harmful.
20:01 <+danderson> without reading the article, no doubt.
20:01 < dho> because go can't catch it, so the runtime has to
20:01 <+danderson> or contextualizing it in the time of publication
20:01 < carllerche> iant: doesn't seem to be os.EPIPE
20:01 < vsmatck1> danderson: I have that impression too.  :)
20:01 < dho> carllerche: it isn't
20:01 < dho> hold on
20:01 <+iant> What Dijkstra really meant is that spaghetti code is harmful
20:01 <+danderson> exactly
20:02 < vsmatck1> I'm glad a teacher made me read it in a programming
language class.
20:02 < dho> oh
20:02 < dho> yep
20:02 < neilk> excessive, unstructured use of goto is harmful
20:02 < dho> from rsc ``SIGPIPE is handled and turns into an EPIPE returned
from Write.''
20:02 < dho> I'm assuming it's the same as read
20:02 < vsmatck1> I like the example of breaking out of a loop nested in a
loop (as an argument for a valid use of goto).
20:02 <+iant> carllerche: you won't be able to compare that os.Error with
os.EPIPE directly, you have to get to the real error code if you want to use ==
os.EPIPE
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20:03 < neilk> although if you want to use that example, someone else will
say if you've got a loop nested in a loop and you want to break out of both loops,
you probably want to be using a function :)(
20:03 < dho> I have no doubt that Dijkstra was a far more brilliant man than
I am, but I really don't agree with all his claims.
20:03 <+danderson> vsmatck1: arguably, if you find yourself doing that
often, you may need to refactor a bit
20:03 <+danderson> pretty much what neilk just said :)
20:03 < neilk> danderson: actually, i said someone else would say it, and
you did
20:03 < carllerche> iant: is there any documentation as to which error code
it might be?  I can't find in the pkg source where the error is created
20:03 <+danderson> neilk: prophecy fulfiller, that's me.
20:04 < vsmatck1> True, it seems like one of those things rarely used, but
nice when you really need it.
20:04 < neilk> goto is usually a bad idea, but sometimes you've got to
program a bad idea
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20:04 < dho> defer handles at least one popular use of goto
20:04 <+danderson> I'm reminded of the security class I had when I started
at google
20:04 <+iant> carllerche: it's probably os.PathError; one quick way to find
out is fmt.Printf("%T", error)
20:04 < dho> but nested loops aren't always bad
20:05 < neilk> i'm on the fence about goto used as a poor man's exception
handler in C
20:05 <+danderson> the entire talk was pretty much "Use common sense"
sprinkled with examples to calibrate said common sense
20:05 <+danderson> same with goto.  Code readability is paramount, and
sometimes goto is the right way to make it readable.
20:05 <+iant> Go does also let you break out of nested loops without using
goto
20:05 <+danderson> but use common sense and don't build a spaghetti table
20:05 < skelterjohn> iant: how is that?
20:06 < dho> iant: but it's break label; right?
20:06 < dho> well s/;//
20:06 <+iant> yes, break label
20:06 < dho> right, so essentially goto anyway :)
20:06 < skelterjohn> how is that different from goto label
20:06 < vsmatck1> Does go have a break 2; or something?  *looks for docs&
20:06 <+iant> well, yes, break is basically a limited goto
20:06 < neilk> but a limited use of goto
20:06 < neilk> switch is also a limited goto
20:06 <+iant> so is continue
20:06 < neilk> but it's limited so as to be mostly harmless
20:06 <+danderson> actually, there's a case for keeping the semicolons: in
IRC conversations, lack of semicolon makes it hard to see where code terminates
and English resumes :)
20:06 < dho> danderson: haha
20:06 < dho> +1
20:06 < dho> :)
20:07 < carllerche> iant: it's a os.PathErrorDest, thanks for the Printf
trick
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20:07 < vsmatck1> switch seems like a bad thing to me.  Seems like a
duplicate feature.  But then whether or no duplicate features should be in a
language is argueable.
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20:07 < vsmatck1> Because it can be replaced with if/else if.
20:08 < vsmatck1> Without losing any generality.  Anyone disagree with this?
20:08 < dho> well, between defer / break label, I don't expect to use goto
much at all.
20:08 < neilk> switch is more efficient than if/else if.
20:08 <+danderson> it can, but if/else if chains are a pain in the ass to
type
20:08 < neilk> maybe not the way it's implemented in go
20:08 < jessta> the switch statement has better syntax than lots of if/else
20:08 <+danderson> I die a little inside each time I have to implement it,
and yearn for a lisp cond
20:08 < neilk> but in C, it can be more efficient precisely because it's a
kind of goto
20:08 < vsmatck1> Interesting.  I've not heard about efficiency benefits of
switch.
20:09 <+iant> if the case labels are constants, switch can be more efficient
20:09 < KirkMcDonald> vsmatck1: In C, a switch statement can frequently be
implemented as a jump table.
20:09 < jdp> let's just have a match keyword and guards and be done with it
;)
20:09 < KirkMcDonald> vsmatck1: With if/else if, you need to check each
condition in turn.
20:09 < dho> I'd guess an optimizing compiler would generate the same output
for equivilent switch and if/else if constructs.
20:09 < neilk> switch (...) case 1: case 2: case 3: case 4: case 5:...  can
be compiled into assembly as 'is val between 1 and 5?  if so, jump to the
instruction stored in n+val
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20:10 < neilk> instead of "is n=1?  if not, is n=2?  if not, is n=3?" etc
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20:10 < vsmatck1> Ah, interesting optimization.  I understand how that could
work.
20:10 < neilk> depending on what you're switching and how fast, this can
make a big difference or none at all
20:10 <+danderson> dho: probably, but even if it comes down to readability,
choice between more than 2 alternatives should not have to be constructed out of
chaining binary switches
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20:11 < dho> danderson: certainly
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20:11 < KirkMcDonald> Even with the case expressions being strings, you can
compile it as a constant hash table.
20:11 <+danderson> that's why eg.  lisp has both if for binary decisions and
cond for many-way decisions
20:11 <+danderson> and it really does help convey intent, imho.
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20:11 < skelterjohn> even with non consecutive switch cases, if they're
constants then the compiler can have the code do binary search or something
instead of linear lookup
20:11 < KirkMcDonald> Or a hash table.
20:12 < skelterjohn> or a hashtable, as kirk mentioned
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20:12 <+danderson> if anything, go should have called the keyword 'cond', so
that people don't look at it with the prejudice of C/C++ switch :)
20:12 < KirkMcDonald> It can attempt to find a perfect hash table for the
constant keys.
20:12 < skelterjohn> right, hashtable seems more appropriate.
20:12 * dho goes out to promote lung cancer
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20:14 < rog> lisp has case too
20:14 < rog> CL, that is
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20:26 < rbancroft> case is more like a switch statement
20:26 < rbancroft> cond is more like if/elses
20:27 <+danderson> ooh, new gcc compiler error.  Fun.
20:28 <+danderson> and in the STL no less, I wonder what I screwed up :)
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20:29 < divoxx> Hi there.  I'm wondering if there is a way to define a
interface for a constructor...  I have some interfaces I'm defining but I'd like
to also define a interface for a constructor that will build the object that
conforms to that interface...
20:29 < divoxx> Not sure if I'm making sense though :)
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20:34 < rbancroft> and neilk, does any compiler perform that particular
optimization?  it wouldn't even work, unless that instruction was another jump
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20:35 < neilk> which optimization?
20:36 < neilk> the switch 1..5 one?
20:36 < rbancroft> neilk: yes
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20:36 < neilk> i'm fairly sure it's not an uncommon way to compile it
20:38 < neilk> i just observed gcc 4.1.2 performing it
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20:39 < neilk> i think it's the whole reason they put switch in the language
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20:40 < oal> Can I use C libraries with golang?
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20:41 < rbancroft> neilk: I guess so.  a branch table
20:41 < asyncster> given an os.Error, is there a way to get the unix error
code?
20:41 < asyncster> it seems to convert everything to a string
20:42 < carllerche> asyncster: I'm trying to do something similar and having
some type problems.
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20:42 < carllerche> if e.Error == os.Errno(54) won't compile for me, not
sure why os.Errno is an os.Error
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20:42 < xerox> oal: iirc no ffi is available yet
20:42 < carllerche> I'm getting invalid operation: e.Error == 54 (type
os.Error == os.Errno)
20:43 < neilk> rbancroft: try it, write a simple C program with switch cases
0..5 and compile it with -S
20:43 < neilk> or try it with 1..5 and see how the compiler subtracts 1 from
your reuslt :
20:44 < rbancroft> neilk: I misunderstood your initial comment, so I agree
it would work btw
20:44 < neilk> oh, okay
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#go-nuts
20:44 < jessta> oal: look at cgo
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20:45 < oal> jessta: thanks
20:46 < jessta> oal: but there isn't any way to call go code from C, so
libraries that use callbacks won't work
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20:46 < dho> sort of
20:47 < oal> Ok
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20:47 < dho> the person who did the lua port made a hack to allow that.
20:47 < oal> Could Go be a replacement for C/C++ in some years?  Or is that
not the goal for Go?
20:47 < skelterjohn> systems language of the future
20:47 < skelterjohn> I'm sure one of their dreams is to have it supplant C
20:48 < skelterjohn> but C is sort of embedded into our cultural psyche
20:48 < skelterjohn> so basically, who knows?
20:48 < oal> interesting ;)
20:48 < skelterjohn> I certainly like it better, esp for concurrent
programming
20:48 < asyncster> carllerche: this seems to work
20:48 < asyncster> err.(*os.PathError).Error.(os.Errno)
20:49 < neilk> it sure is better than pthreads
20:49 < carllerche> asyncster: what is the err.(...) syntax, is that for
type conversion?
20:50 < asyncster> carllerche
20:50 < skelterjohn> I'm not exactly sure why everyone hates pthreads so
much
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20:50 < asyncster> yeah, it takes the eror, converts it into a path Error
20:50 < skelterjohn> but I don't think about things on the OS level
20:50 < skelterjohn> or I try not to
20:50 < jessta> oal: it's the kind of thing that actually could replace C
for a lot of things
20:50 < asyncster> then takes the Error property of the PathError, and
converts it into an Errno
20:50 < jessta> oal: nothing else I've seen really comes close
20:51 < asyncster> that's the unix error no
20:51 < skelterjohn> jessta: there have been things that merit coming close,
but don't have the backing of google
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20:51 < skelterjohn> The fact that google can hold a press conference and
suddenly there is a community...
20:51 < skelterjohn> that is pretty clutch
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20:52 < oal> jessta: Can one make gui applications in go atm?
20:52 < ShadowIce> carllerche: this might work as well: e.(os.Errno) == 54
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20:54 < carllerche> ShadowIce: doesn't type conversion return 2 things?
20:54 < ShadowIce> hmm....yes
20:55 < KirkMcDonald> That is a type assertion, not a conversion.
20:55 < KirkMcDonald> And it may return one or two things, depending on the
context in which it is used.
20:55 < carllerche> i was under the impression that foo.(type) was a type
assertion
20:55 < carllerche> and type(foo) was a conversion
20:55 < KirkMcDonald> Yes.
20:55 < KirkMcDonald> And he typed e.(os.Errno), yes?
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20:56 < carllerche> yes, i belive so
20:56 < carllerche> this is what i was doing: e.Error == os.Errno(54), which
doesn't compile
20:56 < carllerche>
20:56 < KirkMcDonald> Oh, I see.
20:57 < jessta> oal: not really at the moment
20:57 < carllerche> before that, i have e, ok := err.(*os.PathError)
20:58 < ShadowIce> ah, sorry....I though e was of type Error
20:58 < carllerche> ShadowIce: well, os.Error is an interface
20:58 < ShadowIce> yes I know
20:58 < carllerche> e is a *os.PathError, so e.Error should be an os.Errno
20:58 < jessta> oal: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings
20:59 < oal> jessta: thank you
20:59 < ShadowIce> no, e.Error is _something_ that implements the Error
interface, it doesn't have to be Errno
21:00 < KirkMcDonald> ShadowIce: e is a variable of type *os.PathError.
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21:00 < KirkMcDonald> ShadowIce: And os.PathError has a member named Error.
21:00 < fgb> oal, there is no such a thing as C/C++, you either have C or
C++
21:00 < ShadowIce> KirkMcDonald: I know now ;)
21:00 < skelterjohn> Or, you write C code and compile it with g++
21:00 < KirkMcDonald> carllerche: The docs say that e.Error is of type
os.Error.
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21:01 < ShadowIce> so my previous line should have been: e.Error.(os.Errno)
== 54
21:01 < skelterjohn> or is not the case that you can do that, in general
21:01 < carllerche> ShadowIce: I shall try that out, thanks
21:01 < ShadowIce> and of course I didn't try that and I'm fairly new to
Go....so no idea if that's correct ;=
21:02 < KirkMcDonald> It is syntactically correct.  But I don't know if you
have any assurance that e.Error will always be an Errno.
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21:03 < fgb> and that wouldn't be quite portable
21:03 < ShadowIce> KirkMcDonald: yes, you should check the second return
value as well....
21:03 < fgb> what about systems that don't have errno...
21:03 < ShadowIce> if you want to write good software ^^
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21:11 < gnuvince> If I want to write a little program and use gotest, do I
need to write my program in $GOROOT/src/pkg?
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21:11 < KirkMcDonald> No.
21:11 < KirkMcDonald> Just include Make.pkg, and it'll work.
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21:12 < KirkMcDonald> Like, here's my own third-party package's Makefile:
http://code.google.com/p/optparse-go/source/browse/Makefile
21:12 < KirkMcDonald> (You can ignore the last three lines.)
21:12 < KirkMcDonald> And 'make test' runs the unit tests just fine.
21:17 < skelterjohn> the gotest infrastructure is quite nice
21:20 < carllerche> is it generally a good idea to play with GOMAXPROCS
right now?  the docs say that it's going to go away
21:21 < skelterjohn> Worth setting it to the number of cores you've got on
your machine, and otherwise ignoring it
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21:38 < fenicks> hello
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21:47 < bfrank2> has anyone found a way to read files a line at a time?
21:49 < skelterjohn> I believe io/ioutils has some stuff for htat
21:49 < skelterjohn> i lied
21:49 < skelterjohn> Seems like a reasonable utility function, though, that
creates a channel and sends lines on this channel
21:49 < skelterjohn> someone should write it.
21:50 < dho> readline, too.
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21:51 < dho> or, probably better, libedit
21:51 < skelterjohn> If you can grab all the data from the file, pass it to
http://golang.org/pkg/regexp/#Regexp.AllMatchesStringIter
21:51 < skelterjohn> with the appropriate regexp
21:51 < skelterjohn> but it is something common enough to want to do that it
should be its own function
21:51 < skelterjohn> dho: libedit?
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21:52 < dho> what the BSDs use instead of readline.
21:52 < bfrank2> so there isn't one?
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21:52 < bfrank2> hmm
21:52 < bfrank2> yeah, and reading a line at a time seems a bit more
efficient, for really large file processing
21:53 < skelterjohn> I won't say there *isn't*, but I don't know of one and
a cursory scan of the libraries didn't turn anything up
21:53 < KirkMcDonald> It's not that hard to implement it.
21:53 < KirkMcDonald> Read a block at a time, read lines from the block,
keep the partial line at the end, read the next block...
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21:54 < hagna> the x axis on the chart shown here is what, n?
http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
21:54 < KirkMcDonald> hagna: Yes.
21:55 < KirkMcDonald> hagna: Note, too, the difference in the units on the
Y-axes.
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21:56 < supershoe0> hellooooooo?
21:57 < dho> only from aol.
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21:58 < supershoe0> anyone play vba?
22:00 < hagna> hah!  thanks for pointing that out
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