--- Log opened Tue Dec 15 00:00:00 2009 --- Day changed Tue Dec 15 2009 00:00 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has joined #go-nuts 00:00 -!- rbohn_ [n=rbohn@192.206.100.4] has joined #go-nuts 00:01 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:01 -!- BleSS [n=quassel@87.223.179.242] has joined #go-nuts 00:01 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 00:03 < BleSS> is there any advantage for go-routines over libev? 00:04 < BleSS> a full-featured and high-performance event loop - http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libev.html 00:08 -!- SRabbelier [n=SRabbeli@ip138-114-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10 -!- Eridius [n=kevin@growl/Eridius] has joined #go-nuts 00:10 < Eridius> is fnmatch() available from within Go? 00:10 -!- plediii [n=plediii@nat-128-42-158-223.rice.edu] has quit [No route to host] 00:12 -!- rakd [n=rakd@219.117.252.7.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:14 -!- tomestla1 [n=tom@AToulouse-151-1-41-175.w83-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15 -!- SRabbelier [n=SRabbeli@ip138-114-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #go-nuts 00:17 -!- cryptix [n=cryptix@p4FDE2505.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:18 -!- gkmngrgn [n=gkmngrgn@unaffiliated/gkmngrgn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21 -!- qbit_ [n=qbit_@c-75-71-160-106.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:22 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26 -!- encolpe [n=encolpe@89.83.167.147] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27 -!- BleSS [n=quassel@87.223.179.242] has quit ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."] 00:29 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 00:29 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 00:35 -!- Alkavan [n=alkavan@87.68.247.236.adsl.012.net.il] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:36 -!- Alkavan [n=alkavan@87.68.247.236.adsl.012.net.il] has joined #go-nuts 00:37 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.191.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38 -!- Ortzman [n=ortzinat@cpe-065-191-006-129.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:43 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@d64-180-45-230.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46 -!- danderson [n=dave@atlas.natulte.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:46 -!- danderson [n=dave@atlas.natulte.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:46 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v danderson] by ChanServ 00:47 -!- rsc9 [n=rsc@nat/google/x-pwdqxyufkahbugyp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:47 -!- rsc9 [n=rsc@nat/google/x-ghrvowsaxppkaaof] has joined #go-nuts 00:47 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v rsc9] by ChanServ 00:48 -!- [dmp]_ [n=dennis@static.251.110.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:48 -!- [dmp] [n=dennis@unaffiliated/dmp/x-546784] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:49 -!- mythz [n=mythz@5ad3fee1.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:49 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50 -!- nf_ [n=nf@203-214-157-64.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 00:50 -!- jaxdahl [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-126-227.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:50 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 00:50 -!- zurh [n=ubux@unaffiliated/zurh] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51 -!- jaxdahl [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-126-227.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:52 -!- nf [n=nf@203-214-157-64.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53 -!- Xera^ [n=lol@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53 -!- Xera^ [n=lol@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 00:54 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-124-22-4.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:54 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-124-22-4.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 00:55 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-124-22-4.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:55 -!- Tuller [n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:56 -!- Ortzinator [n=ortzinat@unaffiliated/ortzinator] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-164-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:08 -!- Kibiz0r [n=Adium@99-48-204-31.lightspeed.brhmmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:09 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:11 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@194.182.65-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:12 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:12 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Exstatica, bockmabe, cpach, amorpisseur, pvanduse, wm_eddie, eek, svanlund, L29Ah, beneth`, (+73 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 01:12 < nf_> and when i suggested to tallulah we install a sophisticated surveillence system she was very enthusiastic 01:12 < nf_> uhh 01:12 < nf_> wrong window - please ignore that =) 01:14 < dagle2> Never! 01:14 < Eridius> hrm, go's regexps are very primitive, aren't they? 01:15 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: Heh, I think the regexp package is there to say "hey look it is possible to go regexes in Go" than anything else. 01:15 < KirkMcDonald> Er, s/than/more than/ 01:15 < Eridius> it looks like it doesn't even support embedding character classes (e.g. [[0-9][a-z]]), which even basic POSIX regexes support 01:16 < KirkMcDonald> Wouldn't that just be spelled [0-9a-z] ? 01:16 < Eridius> KirkMcDonald: this is being a pain because Go doesn't have Fnmatch either, so I'm trying to recreate Fnmatch by transforming the glob pattern into a regex 01:16 < Eridius> KirkMcDonald: yeah, but in a more complicated case it wouldn't 01:16 < Eridius> in my case I'd like to be able to embed one dynamically-constructed character class in another, but I can't 01:16 < Eridius> in basic regexes I can say [[:alpha:][:digit:]] if I want 01:17 < KirkMcDonald> I did not think that e.g. [:alpha:] was standard. 01:17 < Eridius> it's part of POSIX regexes 01:17 -!- atsampson [n=ats@94-193-50-45.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 01:17 < Eridius> man 7 re_format 01:17 -!- eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-81.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:17 -!- cpach [n=FOO@c-e2a472d5.031-102-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 01:17 -!- jvogel [n=jonathan@friedpancakes.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 -!- jlouis [i=jlouis@130.225.165.29] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 < KirkMcDonald> I guess I have more experience with Python re's than anything else. 01:18 < KirkMcDonald> Oh, and vim. 01:18 -!- beneth` [n=beneth`@beneth.fr] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 -!- erikd [n=aphistic@otome.novustorm.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 < Eridius> vim's regexes are not at all standard :p 01:18 -!- viirya [n=viirya@cml506-25.csie.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 -!- whiteley [n=bart@nat/novell/session] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 < KirkMcDonald> But they do support [:alpha:]. 01:19 < KirkMcDonald> Python, on the other hand, does not. 01:19 -!- codemac [n=codemac@cpe-076-182-083-019.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:19 < Eridius> even PCRE supports [:foo:] named character classes. What does Python use? 01:20 < KirkMcDonald> "Even" PCRE? :-) 01:20 < KirkMcDonald> I've always thought of PCRE as being one of the more full-featured regex engines. 01:20 < KirkMcDonald> http://docs.python.org/library/re.html 01:20 < Eridius> yes I know PCRE is, my point was that a widely-used "standard" regex engine supports them 01:21 < Eridius> yeah that document describes the regex format, but doesn't say what engine it uses. I wonder if it's actually custom to Python? 01:21 < Ycros> "standard" regexes? lol. 01:21 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: Python uses its own regexes. 01:21 < Eridius> Ycros: note the quotes :p 01:21 -!- Meidor [n=quassel@cl-936.ams-05.nl.sixxs.net] has quit ["No Ping reply in 180 seconds."] 01:22 -!- Meidor [n=quassel@cl-936.ams-05.nl.sixxs.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:22 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 01:22 < Eridius> why does Python use a custom engine? 01:22 < KirkMcDonald> To take advantage of Python features. 01:22 < Eridius> I thought PCRE supported an extension mechanism to do host-language callouts, just like Perl itself provides? 01:22 < KirkMcDonald> Named groups, for example. 01:22 < nf_> Eridius: one thing that springs to mind is the ability to use a func as a substitution 01:22 < Eridius> doesn't PCRE have named groups? 01:23 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@212.31-ppp.3menatwork.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:23 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: Perhaps. 01:23 < Ycros> Eridius: why not? does it matter? 01:23 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: I expect the reasons are also historical. 01:23 < Ycros> most languages I've used all do their own things -_- 01:23 < Eridius> nf_: PCRE has something called "callouts" which should provide that ability 01:23 < nf_> Ycros: incompatibility? 01:23 < Eridius> really I don't see any reason for a new language to use anything other than PCRE or Oniguruma 01:23 < nf_> Eridius: hmm. well a regex engine seems like a pretty fun thing to write =) maybe that's why 01:23 < Ycros> so I rarely expect anything to be consistent, anywhere, in terms of regexes 01:23 < Eridius> nf_: yeah but it's hard to beat the performance of the existing ones 01:24 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: Python's re module is older than PCRE. 01:24 < skelterjohn> eridius: Not at all http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 01:24 < skelterjohn> the "existing ones" supplied by perl, for example, are REALLY REALLY slow compared to the state of the art 01:24 -!- mythz [n=mythz@5ad3fee1.bb.sky.com] has left #go-nuts [] 01:24 < Eridius> skelterjohn: PCRE is "perl-compatible". AFAIK it's not actually the engine Perl uses 01:25 < Eridius> but yeah, if you can beat performance of PCRE or Oniguruma, then you should contribute back to those projects rather than spawning off a brand new incompatible engine 01:25 < KirkMcDonald> It is not difficult to implement an engine which is more efficient by limiting the featureset. 01:26 < Eridius> I suppose that's true, but people always want to use stuff not provided by said limited featureset 01:26 < Ycros> Eridius: well, create bindings for one of them and implement a go layer on top and submit a patch 01:26 < Eridius> Ycros: it would help if there was a stable Go<->C bridge :p 01:26 < Ycros> Eridius: well, you can fix some cgo issues as well :P 01:27 < Eridius> ah hah, Python 1.5 (which introduced "re") was released in 1998, PCRE was released in 1997 :p 01:27 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: And when was PCRE useful? 01:27 < Eridius> no clue 01:28 < Eridius> Go doesn't have the ternary operator, right? 01:28 < Ycros> nope 01:29 < Eridius> bah 01:29 < KirkMcDonald> Heh heh. 01:29 < KirkMcDonald> You can always fake it. 01:29 < Ycros> quite on purpose 01:29 < Eridius> Haskell can get away with that because it's functional, so you can put if statements where expressions are expected 01:29 < Ycros> :P 01:29 < Ycros> aye 01:29 * Eridius doesn't like taking 4 lines to do what 1 line could have done with a conditional expression 01:29 < Ycros> Eridius: but that is because ifs aren't statements but expressions 01:29 < Eridius> Ycros: exactly 01:30 < Eridius> but in Go if is a statement 01:30 -!- danderson [n=dave@atlas.natulte.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- ozzloy [n=ozzloy@ozzloy.lifeafterking.org] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- kimelto [n=kimelto@boulz.org] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- inittab [n=dlbeer@ip-118-90-1-68.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- Pete_27 [n=noname@115.64.1.61] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- vegai_ [n=vegai@archlinux/developer/vegai] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- nictuku [n=nnnictuk@unaffiliated/nictuku] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- nsz_ [i=nsz@morecp.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- shardz [i=samuel@216.93.243.34] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- vhold [n=vhold@adsl-67-114-158-146.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 -!- vt100 [n=vt@cust125.179.113.38.dsl.g3telecom.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:30 < Ycros> aye 01:30 < Ycros> it doesn't bother me 01:30 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@194.182.65-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30 < Eridius> also, if I'm reading the language spec correctly, is it actually legal to use a simple statement instead of a block as the body of an "else" clause? 01:31 < skelterjohn> yes 01:31 < skelterjohn> apparently there was some internal debate on the subject 01:31 < Eridius> weird. Was that deliberate, or just a side-effect of how else if was done? 01:31 < skelterjohn> but in the end, it was intentional 01:31 < Eridius> huh 01:31 < KirkMcDonald> Heh heh 01:31 < skelterjohn> seems odd to me 01:31 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 01:31 < Eridius> yeah, but I suppose it's a simple way to handle else if 01:32 < KirkMcDonald> map[bool]string{true: "true expression", false: "false expression"}[condition] 01:32 < KirkMcDonald> There! A ternary operator. 01:32 < skelterjohn> looks efficient 01:32 < nf_> that, and enforcing the block after if solves the nested if/else ambiguity 01:32 < Eridius> KirkMcDonald: no it's not. It evaluates both branches before picking one 01:32 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: Pish-posh. 01:32 < nf_> whereas requring a block after else doesn't resolve any ambiguity 01:32 < Eridius> nf_: you can resolve the ambiguity without requiring a block 01:33 < Eridius> granted, you can't resolve the *visual* ambiguity if you indent poorly, but you can handle the parsing ambiguity just fine 01:33 < Eridius> and with gofmt there should be no visual ambiguity :p 01:33 < skelterjohn> eridius: certainly, but they decided to resolve it using required blocks. 01:33 -!- tor7 [n=tor@c-987a71d5.04-50-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 01:33 < Eridius> yeah I don't mind requiring blocks for if 01:33 < Eridius> I just found it odd that it's required for if but not for else 01:33 < skelterjohn> same. 01:33 < KirkMcDonald> (map[bool]func()string{false: func()string{return "false"}, true: func()string{return "true"}}[condition]() 01:33 < skelterjohn> *shrug* 01:33 < skelterjohn> I don't really care a lot about syntax. 01:33 < KirkMcDonald> Er, minus the leading ) 01:33 < nf_> Eridius: you may easily write something you don't mean, and miss the re-indentation 01:33 < KirkMcDonald> Er, the leading (, even. 01:33 < Eridius> KirkMcDonald: ...eww :p 01:33 < skelterjohn> kirkmcdonald: quite a mouthful 01:34 < nf_> Eridius: enforcing the block removes that 01:34 < KirkMcDonald> Isn't that clearer than condition ? "true" : "false" ? 01:34 < skelterjohn> you could write a function "Tertiary(condition, trueThunk, falseThunk)" 01:34 < KirkMcDonald> Heh. 01:34 < Eridius> what the... in regexp.go, type _CharClass has a field named "char", but I can't see it actually accessed anywhere, nor can I think of a purpose for it 01:35 < skelterjohn> might be a bit more visually appealing than a map 01:35 < Eridius> skelterjohn: yeah but Go doesn't have macros so you'd have to manually wrap the thunks as function objects 01:35 < Eridius> so that wouldn't really be any prettier 01:36 < skelterjohn> the tertiary operator is just one of many ways to cram too much code onto one line, so I don't mind it missing 01:36 < Eridius> ehh, it can be abused, but it's also useful 01:36 < skelterjohn> same as with any feature 01:36 < skelterjohn> line has to be drawn. 01:36 < Eridius> yeah, which is why it's odd for the ternary operator to be singled-out 01:37 < skelterjohn> there are many features that are in other languages that aren't in go, so ternary operators shouldn't feel lonely :) 01:37 < nf_> i don't see how it's singled out? there are plenty of langauge features that didn't make it into go 01:37 < nf_> (or "haven't yet") 01:37 < Eridius> most languages have at least some way of doing a conditional as an expression 01:37 < skelterjohn> subjective bias. 01:38 < Eridius> true, but it's *my* subjectiveness :p 01:38 < skelterjohn> not saying you're being irrational 01:38 < nf_> bare in mind that every language has its individual aesthetic, and the authors of Go evidently decided they don't like ?: 01:38 -!- djm [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- eek [n=eivind@213-155-151-233.customer.teliacarrier.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- dj_ryan [n=ryan@c-67-160-202-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- jaxdahl [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-126-227.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- L29Ah [n=L29Ah@jabber.spbu.ru] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- dizm [n=dizm@121.98.168.127] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- cablehead [n=Adium@nat/slide/x-vgrcyqskhorohjwt] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- fission6 [n=zach@nyc01.limewire.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- murodes1 [n=James@203.59.241.186] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Null_ [n=xxxx@216.40.38.232] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- lstoll [n=lstoll@randall.lstoll.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- ac [i=foobar@174-21-101-232.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- pvanduse [n=pdusen@crob4-55.flint.umich.edu] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- crakrjak [n=merc@rrcs-70-62-156-154.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- tokuhiro0 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- MadMethod [n=Method@unaffiliated/method] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- shasbot [n=shasbot@ip70-171-218-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- iant [n=iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Paradox924X [n=Paradox9@vaserv/irc/founder] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Guest87283 [n=irc@209.17.191.58] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- niekie [i=quasselc@CAcert/Assurer/niekie] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- tomaw_ [i=tomaw@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- vincent_ [n=vincent@li89-236.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- wm_eddie [n=wm_eddie@kanna.wm-eddie.info] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- bockmabe [n=B@miles.jfet.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- clip9 [i=tj@12.81-166-62.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Altercation [n=Altercat@pdpc/supporter/active/altercation] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- philips [n=brandon@opensuse/member/philips] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- mjburgess [n=michael@m1.mjburgess.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- cyt_ [n=cyt@li57-21.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- svanlund [n=david@79.99.2.92] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- eharmon [n=eharmon@74.204.161.105] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- skerner [n=skerner@74.202.225.33] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Zeffrin [n=zeffrin@203.141.132.221.static.zoot.jp] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- ServerMode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by irc.freenode.net 01:38 -!- garbeam [n=arg@garbe.us] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- mitsuhiko [n=mitsuhik@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- BlunderBuss [n=BlunderB@12.54.221.117] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- TenOfTen [n=TenOfTen@c-fd25e555.04-18-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 01:38 -!- Exstatica [i=Exstatic@freenode/staff/exstatica] has joined #go-nuts 01:39 < nf_> a big part of Go's design addresses clarity 01:39 -!- aho [n=nya@g228086078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION"] 01:39 < nf_> and enforced style 01:39 < skelterjohn> which is why i don't really get the lack of a {} req. for else statements 01:39 < Eridius> hrm, any reason "fallthrough" and "defer" aren't addressed in Effective Go? 01:39 -!- djm_ [n=djm@209-20-65-153.slicehost.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:39 < skelterjohn> but i can always put them in, so that's an easy one to ignore 01:39 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 01:39 -!- djm [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has quit ["dywypi?"] 01:40 < skelterjohn> eridius: because it's not the language spec. they picked on a few items they thought would be useful as an intro to the language. 01:40 < nf_> skelterjohn: as Eridius pointed out, it does make 'else if' more palatable without muddying things 01:40 < skelterjohn> nf_: ah good point 01:40 < Eridius> skelterjohn: yeah, but Effective Go mentions that case statements do not fall through. It seems like a good place to mention the "fallthrough" statement 01:40 < Eridius> the lack of defer, I can understand. 01:40 < nf_> Eridius: the Effective Go document is a small starting point - there will be more written in the future along those lines 01:41 < skelterjohn> *looks up fallthrough* 01:41 < KirkMcDonald> Heh. The first thing I did when I heard about Go was read the spec. 01:41 -!- eulenspiegel [n=irssi@p579CAB79.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:41 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:41 < skelterjohn> you possess a focused mind 01:42 < skelterjohn> my idea of light reading is somewhat different 01:42 < KirkMcDonald> The spec is actually quite readable. 01:42 < nf_> my idea of light reading is disassembled core dumps! </alphanerd>? 01:42 < skelterjohn> sure, as language specs go 01:42 < KirkMcDonald> It's a brief, but exhaustive, overview of the entirety of the language. 01:42 < nf_> KirkMcDonald: yeah the crosslinking of node types helps 01:43 -!- stalled [n=411@95-24-184-93.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #go-nuts 01:43 < KirkMcDonald> And the language is small enough that someone can actually read it in one sitting. 01:43 < nf_> i like how you can literally click through the document to parse a string in your head =) 01:43 < KirkMcDonald> Yes, the linking to the grammar is nice. 01:43 < skelterjohn> I like that feature too 01:44 -!- zuser [n=nonet@c-69-181-203-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:44 < Eridius> hrm, is there more documentation somewhere on how to use cgo? The command documentation is pretty sparse, and I don't see anything anywhere else. Am I supposed to just read the stuff in $GOROOT/misc/cgo ? 01:44 < KirkMcDonald> I have not yet used cgo. 01:44 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44 -!- zuser [n=nonet@c-69-181-203-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 01:45 < skelterjohn> the only thing i'd really like to see in go (besides an effective garbage collector) is more basic concurrency constructs 01:45 < KirkMcDonald> In my opinion, it won't be truly useful until they solve the callback problem. 01:45 -!- murodese [n=James@203.59.241.186] has joined #go-nuts 01:45 < skelterjohn> or templates, which i could use to make nice concurrency constructs 01:45 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:45 < KirkMcDonald> Templates may be nice. 01:45 < KirkMcDonald> I like D's template semantics, and would not be displeased if Go stole them whole-cloth. 01:46 -!- Tuller_ [n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:46 -!- BlunderB1ss [n=BlunderB@12.54.221.117] has joined #go-nuts 01:47 -!- mkanat [n=mkanat@c-67-188-1-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:47 < KirkMcDonald> Specifically, the "template as namespace" concept, and the single-member/same-name rule. 01:48 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, smcq_, murodes1, nathanielk, xid, mjburgess, adiabatic, Exstatica, BMeph, vincent_, (+42 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 01:49 -!- bsod2 [n=bsod@springbank.echomania.com] has left #go-nuts [] 01:49 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Gracenotes, Zeffrin, soul9, pvanduse, rrr, nathanielk, skerner, svanlund, eek, vhost- (+40 more) 01:51 < Eridius> pfft, the header doc for the misc/gmp/gmp.go file (which is the most comprehensive documentation for cgo I've found) doesn't mention C.CString() 01:51 < Eridius> which is apparently a function that translates a string object into a CString suitable for giving to C funcs, and which it seems you must also call C.free() on 01:51 -!- stalled [n=411@95-24-184-93.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:53 -!- Xera^ [n=lol@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )"] 01:53 < skelterjohn> <yoda>mature, this language is not</yoda> 01:54 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, smcq_, +iant, nathanielk, xid, mjburgess, adiabatic, Exstatica, BMeph, vincent_, (+40 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 01:55 -!- Netsplit over, joins: TenOfTen 01:55 -!- fission6 [n=tomgreen@c-76-116-70-202.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:55 < fission6> would anyone here be interested in getting a project going for a RESTful API for Go to create web services and "native" web applications? 01:58 < JBeshir> RESTful? 01:58 * JBeshir wants Go FastCGI, that's it. :P 01:58 -!- fission6 [n=tomgreen@c-76-116-70-202.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 01:58 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Null_ [n=xxxx@216.40.38.232] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- eek [n=eivind@213-155-151-233.customer.teliacarrier.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- dj_ryan [n=ryan@c-67-160-202-4.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- jaxdahl [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-126-227.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- L29Ah [n=L29Ah@jabber.spbu.ru] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- dizm [n=dizm@121.98.168.127] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- cablehead [n=Adium@nat/slide/x-vgrcyqskhorohjwt] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- fission6 [n=zach@nyc01.limewire.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- lstoll [n=lstoll@randall.lstoll.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- ac [i=foobar@174-21-101-232.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- pvanduse [n=pdusen@crob4-55.flint.umich.edu] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- crakrjak [n=merc@rrcs-70-62-156-154.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- tokuhiro0 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- MadMethod [n=Method@unaffiliated/method] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- shasbot [n=shasbot@ip70-171-218-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- iant [n=iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Paradox924X [n=Paradox9@vaserv/irc/founder] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Guest87283 [n=irc@209.17.191.58] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- niekie [i=quasselc@CAcert/Assurer/niekie] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- tomaw_ [i=tomaw@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- vincent_ [n=vincent@li89-236.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- wm_eddie [n=wm_eddie@kanna.wm-eddie.info] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- bockmabe [n=B@miles.jfet.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- clip9 [i=tj@12.81-166-62.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Altercation [n=Altercat@pdpc/supporter/active/altercation] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- philips [n=brandon@opensuse/member/philips] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- mjburgess [n=michael@m1.mjburgess.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- cyt_ [n=cyt@li57-21.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- svanlund [n=david@79.99.2.92] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- eharmon [n=eharmon@74.204.161.105] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- skerner [n=skerner@74.202.225.33] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Zeffrin [n=zeffrin@203.141.132.221.static.zoot.jp] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- garbeam [n=arg@garbe.us] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- mitsuhiko [n=mitsuhik@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- ServerMode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by irc.freenode.net 01:58 -!- Exstatica [i=Exstatic@freenode/staff/exstatica] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- ffission6 [n=tomgreen@c-76-116-70-202.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:59 < ffission6> whats the point of FastCGI 01:59 < uriel> didn't somebody implement fcgi already? 01:59 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:59 < JBeshir> To allow a language to fit into an existing webserver and alongside other webapps, without needing to be special and used exclusively on its own. 01:59 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 01:59 -!- mitsuhiko [n=mitsuhik@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko] has quit [Success] 02:00 < uriel> JBeshir: actually, there are *two* fcgi implementations: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/pure-go-libs 02:00 -!- djm [n=djm@209-20-65-153.slicehost.net] has quit [Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 02:00 < Venom_X> yeah, there's a couple of go fcgi implementations already 02:00 < JBeshir> Any submitted for inclusion in the core library? 02:00 -!- djm_ [n=djm@paludis/slacker/djm] has joined #go-nuts 02:00 < uriel> JBeshir: not afaik 02:00 -!- Tuller [n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 02:00 < JBeshir> Nice, still. 02:01 -!- fwiffo [n=fwiffo@unaffiliated/fwiffo] has joined #go-nuts 02:01 < ffission6> i could see the use but why not just build the server & application with Go, isn't that sort of the point of it 02:01 < kimelto> What's the need of fcgi? You can serve http via the go http pkg. And your front servers proxy the requests to your app servers? 02:02 -!- rbohn [n=rbohn@192.206.100.4] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02 < ffission6> kimelto thats my point 02:02 < kimelto> ;) 02:02 < ffission6> i mean the hope i see for Go is that its a native web application framework (server/application/concourrancy/cluster) 02:02 -!- SRabbelier1 [n=SRabbeli@ip138-114-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #go-nuts 02:03 -!- nullpo_ [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 02:03 < ffission6> so with that said i would be interested in building out a rest api/framework over Go's http 02:03 < ffission6> library 02:03 < Eridius> anybody here familiar with cgo? 02:04 < Eridius> I want to use a few #defines to create Go constants, but the compiler claims they're not constant initializers 02:04 < ffission6> ill check back, but would be interested to take a poll off anyone who'd be interested in building out a RESTful library for Go 02:04 -!- rbohn [n=rbohn@192.206.100.4] has joined #go-nuts 02:04 -!- SRabbelier [n=SRabbeli@ip138-114-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:04 < Eridius> the generated .go file is translating C.FNM_PATHNAME into *_C_FNM_PATHNAME. That's not right 02:05 < kimelto> ffission6: xmlrpc or something new? 02:05 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, smcq_, +iant, nathanielk, Exstatica, xid, mjburgess, adiabatic, BMeph, vincent_, (+40 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 02:05 < ffission6> nah i want to build a REST Api over top the http library 02:06 -!- nf [n=nf@203-214-157-64.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 02:06 < kimelto> yeah, but what would be the format of the serialized objects? 02:06 < ffission6> to map URLs to Code portions/services 02:06 < kimelto> binary? 02:06 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 02:06 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:07 < ffission6> oh, well as part of the libary i would hope to make the format seamless or part of the library, ie i can request thing sin binary, YAML, JSON, XML 02:07 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ukai, spikebike, idemal, lmoura, woremacx, john6, impl, scm, drhodes, mrmg, (+19 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 02:07 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has joined #go-nuts 02:07 -!- nf_ [n=nf@203-214-157-64.perm.iinet.net.au] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:07 < ffission6> i think that output should be trivial and part of the libary to easily / dynamically change 02:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: drhodes, jessta, gnuvince, sliceofpi, nullpo, johan-s, Rob_Russell, scm, john6, lmoura (+19 more) 02:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: pvanduse 02:08 -!- svanlund [n=david@cordelia.pingpangdns.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:08 -!- stesla [n=samuel@saffron.thoughtlocker.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08 -!- stesla [n=samuel@209.20.88.22] has joined #go-nuts 02:09 -!- Netsplit over, joins: dj_ryan 02:09 -!- Netsplit over, joins: wm_eddie, garbeam, Zeffrin 02:09 -!- Netsplit over, joins: bockmabe 02:10 < ffission6> okay no one seems to be interested in kicking this project off, ill be back tomorrow to repole, anyone with REST experience i'd love to hear from 02:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Null_ 02:10 -!- Netsplit over, joins: shasbot 02:10 -!- cyt [n=cyt@li57-21.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:11 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Gracenotes, soul9, stalled, rrr, nathanielk, skerner, werdan7, eek, jaxdahl, adiabatic (+27 more) 02:12 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 02:13 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@174-27-183-117.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:13 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:14 -!- clip9 [i=tj@12.81-166-62.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:15 -!- franksalim [n=frank@adsl-76-221-202-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:15 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-19-116.singnet.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 02:15 < uriel> spikebike: the sha256 code just got committed 02:15 < ffission6> kimelto: so what do you think? 02:16 < uriel> spikebike: http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=02c4988339 02:16 < kimelto> ffission6: I have no such experience :) 02:16 < spikebike> uriel: thanks 02:17 < ffission6> ok 02:17 < ffission6> also, is there any DB libaries in the pipeline? 02:18 -!- rthc_ [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:18 < kimelto> there are wrapper for sqlite,mysql,pgsql, ... 02:18 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19 < ffission6> wrappers in this case meaning what? wrappers for the db client drivers? 02:19 < spikebike> author of the crypto/tls example code just emailed me his source, hopefully it will work for me 02:20 < uriel> ffission6: I have not seen any sumission of any db libs, I could have missed it... 02:20 < uriel> ffission6: most of those are bindings, which afaik means they are unlikely to go in 02:20 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:20 < ffission6> uriel, any submissions for a REST framework built over http? 02:21 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: nullpo, korfuri_, kevinwatt, dg, tabo, johan-s, Solver, chrome, Rob_Russell, stesla, (+20 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 02:21 < ffission6> why would they be unlikely, the db bindings, you mean unlikely to go into the code base 02:21 < uriel> I have not seen anything, but the current http libs should allow you to write REST-ful apps just fine IMHO 02:21 < uriel> I have not seen many (other of a couple of examples on how to use cgo) bindings in the main go distribution 02:21 < ffission6> right, i want to be a library on top of http, but i'd like to get involved with the Go community somehow, so how could i do that 02:22 < uriel> how? I don't know, doing it :) 02:22 -!- fhs [n=fhs@pool-72-89-203-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22 -!- anticw_ [n=anticw@c-76-126-87-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 < ffission6> ok 02:22 -!- eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-81.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, smcq_, +iant, xid, nathanielk, mjburgess, Exstatica, BMeph, vincent_, dizm, (+29 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 02:22 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@174-27-183-117.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- stesla [n=samuel@209.20.88.22] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@212.31-ppp.3menatwork.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- sliceofpi [n=sliceofp@c-98-194-205-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- johan-s [n=johan@cm-84.215.111.48.getinternet.no] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- Rob_Russell 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[n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- emilh_ [i=emil@Amanita.Update.UU.SE] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- idemal [n=idemal@penzance.fohost.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- chrome [i=chrome@mars.stupendous.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- woremacx [n=woremacx@unaffiliated/woremacx] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- dg [i=dgl@d.cx] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- impl [i=impl@atheme/member/impl] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- Solver [n=robert@capella.opentrend.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- jessta [n=jessta@li7-205.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- mrmg [n=mrmg@spc2-bmly4-0-0-cust248.asfd.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:22 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:23 < uriel> ffission6: anyway, there are plenty of db bindings out-of-tree: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings 02:23 -!- fhs [n=fhs@pool-72-89-203-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:23 -!- anticw [n=anticw@c-76-126-87-56.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:23 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:23 -!- madmoose [n=madmoose@chef.nerp.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 02:23 < ffission6> so what did you mean you were unsure if the db bindings would go into the code base? 02:23 -!- madmoose [n=madmoose@chef.nerp.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:23 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@194.187.213.34] has joined #go-nuts 02:24 < uriel> ffission6: and there is even one or two client implementations in pure Go (which I assume are more likely to be accepted, if submited):http://go-lang.cat-v.org/pure-go-libs 02:24 -!- stesla [n=samuel@209.20.88.22] has quit [Broken pipe] 02:24 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has joined #go-nuts 02:24 < alexsuraci> ffission6: this quick package I did may be of interest: http://github.com/vito/go-play/blob/master/gopaste/controller.go 02:24 < uriel> ffission6: I meant what I said, from what I have seen pure-go-code is prefered over bindings to C libs 02:24 < alexsuraci> usage: http://github.com/vito/go-play/blob/master/gopaste/gopaste.go#L44 02:24 < alexsuraci> for URL mapping, anyway 02:25 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 02:25 -!- Ryan_ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-178-82.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:25 < uriel> ffission6: I'm talking about code to be included with the distribution, outside the main distribution people do whatever they want 02:25 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #go-nuts 02:25 -!- Netsplit over, joins: franksalim, stalled, vhost-, xid, eek, adiabatic, L29Ah, dizm, cablehead 02:25 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:25 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Gracenotes, soul9, rrr, nathanielk, skerner, carllerche, slashus2, fission6, lstoll, ac (+16 more) 02:25 -!- yashi_ [n=chatzill@210.191.215.170] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25 < ffission6> was any of Go written in C for lower level stuff 02:25 -!- smooge [n=smooge@nat/redhat/x-oazifaraiiuasxjr] has quit ["-ENOBRAIN"] 02:25 -!- smcq__ [n=smcq@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:26 -!- irc [n=irc@209.17.191.58] has joined #go-nuts 02:26 -!- Netsplit over, joins: werdan7 02:26 -!- Guest87283 [n=irc@209.17.191.58] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26 < ffission6> alexsuraci i am going to review controller, thanks, i am looking to build a simple RESTful api over top http, ill be in touch if you interested at all. 02:28 < alexsuraci> ffission6: sure. this tree (go-play/gopaste) powers http://gopaste.org/, feel free to snoop. 02:28 -!- Guest14507 [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28 < Eridius> hrm, path has a neat walk method, but it only provides pre-traversal for directories, no post-traversal (i.e. there's no callback to say it's exiting a directory) 02:29 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:29 < ffission6> alexsuraci: cool..probably be around tomorro with some questions. 02:30 -!- Guest14507 [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 02:30 < alexsuraci> ffission6: i have finals but i'll very likely be around at least after 2:30pm (est) 02:30 -!- Paradox924X [n=Paradox9@245.122.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:32 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, smcq_, nathanielk, Exstatica, xid, mjburgess, BMeph, vincent_, dizm, fission6, (+27 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 02:33 -!- ffission6 [n=tomgreen@c-76-116-70-202.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:35 -!- Netsplit over, joins: ac 02:35 -!- Ryan_ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-178-82.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi"] 02:36 -!- stesla [n=samuel@saffron.thoughtlocker.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:36 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Gracenotes, soul9, eno, franksalim, stalled, rrr, nathanielk, skerner, vhost-, xid (+25 more) 02:37 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: rrr 02:37 -!- Netsplit over, joins: werdan7 02:37 -!- niekie [i=quasselc@CAcert/Assurer/niekie] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42 -!- Netsplit over, joins: rrr 02:43 * spikebike is interested in the neat path dir walking method and the controller 02:43 * spikebike digs around for references 02:44 < spikebike> I to want a nice simple restful api over http 02:44 < spikebike> although to be honest http isn't required 02:45 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:45 < alexsuraci> controller essentially just matches URLs on regexps and calls functions with the matched URL vars as arguments to the function 02:45 < alexsuraci> also does neat things like letting things like ([0-9]+) in the url be passed as ints to the callback function 02:45 < spikebike> cool 02:46 < spikebike> the closest analog I can thing of for what I want to do is USENET 02:46 < spikebike> A -> B I want to publish (list of IDs) 02:46 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46 < spikebike> B->A I have some, please send this subset 02:47 < Eridius> huh, does Go not have any sort of line-based io reading? 02:47 < spikebike> ideally wrapped in something encrypted to prevent sniffing and spoofing 02:47 < spikebike> the current contender is crypto/tls but crypto/rsa looks possible 02:48 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: amorpisseur, eek, mjburgess, L29Ah, dizm, rrr, vhold, soul9, cablehead, adiabatic, (+41 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 02:49 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Gracenotes, soul9, eno, rrr, franksalim, nathanielk, skerner, werdan7, stesla, vhost- (+24 more) 02:49 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:51 -!- 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has joined #go-nuts 03:00 -!- viirya_ [n=viirya@140.112.29.179] has joined #go-nuts 03:00 -!- Solver [n=robert@64.22.125.103] has joined #go-nuts 03:00 -!- mrmg [n=mrmg@spc2-bmly4-0-0-cust248.asfd.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Success] 03:00 -!- Solver_ [n=robert@capella.opentrend.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:00 -!- nullpo_ [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:00 -!- mrmg [n=mrmg@spc2-bmly4-0-0-cust248.asfd.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:00 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Venom_X 03:01 -!- jessta [n=jessta@64.62.231.205] has joined #go-nuts 03:01 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@212.31-ppp.3menatwork.com] has quit [Success] 03:01 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@212.31-ppp.3menatwork.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:01 -!- Sungem [i=Sungem@114-45-233-112.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:01 -!- Norgg_ [n=norgg@norgg.org] has joined #go-nuts 03:01 -!- Norgg [n=norgg@norgg.org] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: jajamana 03:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: mkanat 03:02 -!- dju [i=dju@89-158-203-183.rev.dartybox.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:02 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03 -!- garbeam [n=arg@garbe.us] has joined #go-nuts 03:04 -!- nickjohnson [n=arachnid@coilette.notdot.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:04 -!- Eridius [n=kevin@growl/Eridius] has joined #go-nuts 03:05 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:05 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06 < spikebike> I think freenode.net needs to be replaced with a nice p2p client 03:06 < spikebike> written in go of course ;-) 03:06 < skelterjohn> written in go 03:06 < skelterjohn> :) 03:06 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 03:06 < nonexec> You should write it skelter! 03:07 < spikebike> not like allowing a couple hundred people to send on the order of 1 msg/sec with a loose coherency would be particularly tough 03:07 -!- fhs [n=fhs@pool-72-89-203-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:07 < Eridius> can a function be called higher up in a source file than its definition? 03:08 < skelterjohn> another thing that i haven't got the time to work on 03:09 < skelterjohn> and why did you ask me instead of spikebike - it was his idea! 03:09 < skelterjohn> eridius: yes 03:09 < Eridius> skelterjohn: awesome. I'm having difficulty finding the answer in the docs 03:09 < skelterjohn> easy to test 03:09 < spikebike> skelterjohn: hehe 03:09 * Eridius doesn't like testing things in compiled languages :p 03:10 < Eridius> give me a REPL, I'll test the hell out of it 03:10 < skelterjohn> get one of the many available go runners 03:10 < skelterjohn> remind me what REPL stands for 03:10 < Eridius> read-eval-print loop 03:10 < spikebike> Actually it might actually take if it was a small portable daemon that gave the irc client the appearance of a central server 03:10 < skelterjohn> ah 03:10 < skelterjohn> don't know of any 03:11 < skelterjohn> spikebike: would be pretty easy to do 03:11 < skelterjohn> but i've already lost enough research time to go fiddling 03:11 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 03:11 < skelterjohn> ICML deadline is on 2/1/2010 03:11 < skelterjohn> so I sorta have to stop fiddling 03:12 < Eridius> hrm, any particular reason functions like strings.HasPrefix() was written like that instead of like "foo".HasPrefix() ? 03:12 < Eridius> e.g. why it's not func (string) HasPrefix(suffix string) bool; 03:12 < skelterjohn> because you can't write a function with a primitive as a receiver type 03:12 < Eridius> ahh 03:13 < Eridius> that would certainly explain it 03:13 < skelterjohn> you could "type MyString string" and then use *MyString as a receiver 03:13 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:13 < Eridius> can you not use MyString as a receiver? 03:13 < skelterjohn> but then having to cast would be annoying 03:13 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13 < skelterjohn> *MyString would be more memory efficient, since you wouldn't have to copy the entire thing, probably 03:13 < Eridius> hrm, executing foo[0] (where foo is a string) will panic if foo is empty, yes? 03:14 < skelterjohn> though strings are probably slices so that might not be an issue 03:14 < skelterjohn> i imagine so 03:14 < Eridius> skelterjohn: one would assume the internal storage of a string contains pointers to the actual data anyway 03:14 < skelterjohn> I try not to assume too much 03:14 -!- impl_ [i=impl@224-74.ip4.durham0.network.cynigram.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:14 < skelterjohn> but I think it's just a slice, which is an array reference type 03:14 -!- impl [i=impl@atheme/member/impl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:15 < Eridius> huh, foo[x] (where foo is a string) returns a byte, not a character? 03:15 -!- sstangl [n=sean@BERLIN.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:15 < skelterjohn> that question sounds suspiciously like a statement 03:16 < Eridius> according to the docs, it returns a byte. That just surprises me 03:16 -!- Zeffrin_ [n=zeffrin@203.141.132.221.static.zoot.jp] has joined #go-nuts 03:16 < JBeshir> Eridius: Yes, it does, because strings are indexed by byte. 03:16 < skelterjohn> "strings behave like arrays of bytes" says the spec 03:16 < JBeshir> Eridius: This is because indexing on *character* is an O(n) operation 03:16 -!- rumbleca_ [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:16 < Eridius> JBeshir: I just find it odd that a brand new language would make it so easy to treat strings as byte arrays, instead of as sequences of characters 03:17 < JBeshir> Eridius: This is because Go actually cares about speed. 03:17 < Eridius> JBeshir: it's easy enough if you use UTF-16 as the internal storage of strings 03:17 < skelterjohn> you can iterate through utf8 chars with range 03:17 < JBeshir> Eridius: No, it isn't, because UTF-16 does not mean all characters are two bytes. 03:17 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17 -!- dpb [i=dpb@unaffiliated/dpb] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17 -!- nonexec [i=nonexec@anapnea.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:17 < JBeshir> Eridius: UTF-16 is a horrible standard designed to trick people into false assumptions, like that one. 03:17 -!- dpb [i=dpb@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #go-nuts 03:17 < Eridius> JBeshir: it does if you're iterating by codepoints instead of characters. "character" is too fuzzy anyway 03:17 < skelterjohn> wouldn't having the storage be something other than a byte make it so you couldn't read in blocks from most fies? 03:17 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@194.187.213.34] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:17 < JBeshir> Eridius: No, it does not. 03:17 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: dg, decriptor, uxp, scm, scm_, Zeffrin, jajamana, Guest14507, lmoura, johan-s, (+15 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 03:17 < JBeshir> Eridius: Only codepoints in the BMP 03:18 < adiabatic> You'd have to use UTF-32 if you want to guarantee constant lengths…at least for now 03:18 < Eridius> JBeshir: yes, surrogate pairs will count as 2 elements, but I think that's perfectly fine. 03:18 < Eridius> JBeshir: if you're not already aware of the issue, you're likely to get it wrong regardless of the behavior of the string type 03:18 < JBeshir> Eridius: Cool, then you should also think it's fine that UTF-8 characters above ASCII work just like them. 03:18 < Eridius> skelterjohn: you could read files using []byte 03:18 < JBeshir> Eridius: It's the same thing, just one wastes twice the memory, which is also a resource Go cares about. 03:18 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has joined #go-nuts 03:19 < Eridius> JBeshir: it only wastes twice the memory if you're working in ASCII. 03:19 -!- korfuri [n=korfuri@eth0.korfuri.fr] has joined #go-nuts 03:19 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Zeffrin, jajamana, Norgg_, gnuvince, uxp, scm_, Guest14507, decriptor, johan-s, scm (+14 more) 03:19 -!- uxp_ [n=uxp@uxp.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:19 < JBeshir> Eridius: So it only wastes twice the memory in by far far far and away the most common case. 03:19 < skelterjohn> who works in ASCII anymore? 03:19 < JBeshir> skelterjohn: Everyone. 03:19 < skelterjohn> </sarcasm> 03:19 < Eridius> JBeshir: I've never written a program where the bulk of the memory went to storing strings. Doubling the memory my strings use isn't an issue for me 03:19 -!- Norgg [n=norgg@norgg.org] has joined #go-nuts 03:19 < JBeshir> Eridius: That's cool, go use Python 03:19 -!- korfuri_ [n=korfuri@eth0.korfuri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19 -!- uxp [n=uxp@uxp.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:19 -!- Norgg_ [n=norgg@norgg.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20 -!- Raziel2p [n=Raziel2p@ti0032a380-dhcp0316.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:20 -!- hallsa [n=shane@miles.jfet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20 -!- ni| [n=james@c-24-34-220-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20 -!- hallsa [n=shane@miles.jfet.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:20 -!- kevinwatt [i=kevin@59-125-147-75.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20 -!- spikebike [n=bill@209.237.247.72] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20 -!- spikebike [n=bill@209.237.247.72] has joined #go-nuts 03:20 -!- kevinwatt [i=kevin@59-125-147-75.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:20 < Eridius> JBeshir: why the hell would I want to use Python? 03:20 -!- ni| [n=james@24.34.220.147] has joined #go-nuts 03:20 -!- Guest14507 [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 03:20 -!- Tuller [n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:20 < Eridius> my only point here is I find it odd that Go exposes the byte storage of strings so easily, without even having to convert it to a byte array 03:20 < JBeshir> Because you don't care about speed or memory efficiency, and want a pretty high level language that does everything for you? 03:20 < skelterjohn> standard language to send people to when they complain about lack of certain features 03:20 < Eridius> that's not what I said, JBeshir 03:21 < JBeshir> There's nothing much odd about it. 03:21 -!- Raziel2p [n=Raziel2p@ti0032a380-dhcp0316.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 03:21 < JBeshir> In seriousness, the view seems to be that making them indexed on character allows a few other guarantees (which require O(n) to provide), and break a whole bunch of others. 03:21 < JBeshir> Er, on byte. 03:21 < JBeshir> No, that line was right the first time. 03:21 < Eridius> I didn't say I didn't care about speed or memory efficiency. You don't sacrifice speed by using UTF-16, and as I said, strings don't tend to be more than a fraction of the memory my programs use and so doubling their size isn't a significant impact upon my memory use 03:21 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has joined #go-nuts 03:22 < skelterjohn> subjective bias 03:22 < skelterjohn> i've been saying that a lot 03:22 < JBeshir> Yeah, but UTF-16 also doesn't provide any guarantees that UTF-8 doesn't. 03:22 < Eridius> indexed on UTF-8 character requires O(n). Indexed on UTF-16 allows O(1) indexing while still providing a character as the basic unit of a string. The only drawback is surrogate pairs count as two characters instead of 1 03:22 < Eridius> but that's not a brand new drawback - a non-BMP character in the current string is, what, 3-6 bytes? 03:23 < adiabatic> Eridius: is UTF-16 O(1) if you're dealing with code points outside the BMP? 03:23 < JBeshir> No, it isn't. 03:23 < Eridius> and if you use the range construct, it could handle surrogate pairs just like it does UTF-8 multi-byte characters 03:23 < JBeshir> Surrogate pairs counting as two characters break things exactly in the same ways as UTF-8 characters counting as 2+ charactrs. 03:23 < Eridius> adiabatic: it is if you don't try and count surrogate pairs as a single codepoint 03:23 < JBeshir> i.e. if you do it wrong. 03:23 < Eridius> JBeshir: except the breakage is *far* less common 03:24 < JBeshir> And how's that an improvement? 03:24 < JBeshir> That's just encouraging bad design 03:24 < Eridius> As long as the software I'm writing is not going to be used in an asian country, it's extremely unlikely to ever encounter a non-BMP character (outside of test cases) 03:24 < JBeshir> By encouraging people to ignore it because it's "uncommon". 03:24 < Eridius> you don't have to ignore it. You can provide all the same facilities you do now for intelligently handling strings 03:25 < Eridius> but by doing this, you remove "byte" as the basic unit of a string, and therefore can do things like ensure that strings are always well-formed 03:25 < JBeshir> Except for surrogate pairs, which mean that you can't do that. 03:25 < Eridius> and allow for O(1) indexing into strings as long as the author doesn't care about surrogate codepoints 03:25 < JBeshir> Which means that you can't do it safely, because you can't not care about surrogate codepoitns. 03:25 < JBeshir> (Safely) 03:25 < Eridius> JBeshir: a UTF-16 string with an invalid sequence of surrogate pairs is still well-formed 03:25 < JBeshir> I think it being easy to do things unsafely is considered a Bad Thing. 03:26 < Eridius> The unicode spec says you must not generate UTF-16 sequences with non-paired surrogate codepoints, but it's perfectly ok to consume such sequences 03:26 < Eridius> JBeshir: yes, and you can easily screw up a string right now by treating it as a blob of bytes 03:26 < JBeshir> Eridius: Right. And it's the common case and quite obvious. 03:27 < JBeshir> Eridius: What you're suggesting is making it so you can 99% of the time work on it okay, which makes it far easier for people to accidentally or lazily fail to handle the 1% properly. 03:27 < Eridius> It just seems very bad form to expose the underlying byte format of a string. The user should be required to specify the encoding they want in order to get a byte array from a string 03:27 < JBeshir> There is only one encoding, and it is UTF-8. 03:27 < JBeshir> Users can and do specify the encoding they want, so long as it's UTF-8. :P 03:27 < Eridius> JBeshir: yes, if you're ok with everything making the implicit assumption of UTF-8 03:28 < JBeshir> AFAIK, it's strictly defined by the language. 03:28 < JBeshir> All Strings are UTF-8. 03:28 < skelterjohn> yeah - pretty explicit 03:28 -!- deufrai [n=deu@www.wardsback.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:29 < Eridius> sure, it's documented as such, but there's nothing stopping me from treating a string as just a random blob of bytes 03:29 -!- scm [i=justme@c132060.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:29 < JBeshir> In which case, you have an invalid UTF-8 string. 03:29 < JBeshir> Not sure what your point is. 03:29 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@212.31-ppp.3menatwork.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:29 < JBeshir> UTF-16, to work safely, which is the only kind of work that matters, is still O(n) to index, and has double the memory usage, so I don't see any real gains there. 03:30 < Eridius> in Cocoa, an NSString uses UTF-16 as the underlying storage, and you can't get access to that storage without specifying what encoding you want (nor can you create an NSString from a blob of data without specifying the data's encoding). This makes it nigh impossible to create an invalid string 03:30 < JBeshir> That's cool, sounds really efficient and all 03:30 < Eridius> please stop claiming that UTF-16 is O(n) to index. That's only true if you assume that surrogate pairs should be taken into account during indexing 03:30 < Eridius> JBeshir: it works well enough for 99% of Mac OS X apps, and 100% of iPhone apps 03:30 < JBeshir> They should, for it to be done safely, which is the only way it counts. 03:31 < xerox> Eridius: what's an example of the 1% of the os x apps? 03:31 -!- sstangl [n=sean@BERLIN.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #go-nuts 03:31 < JBeshir> xerox: All Apple products 03:31 * Eridius has written Cocoa code that doesn't even think about surrogate pairs, and Cocoa code that explicitly handles them. The former is trivial, and has never experienced issues. The latter is pretty easy as well. 03:31 < Eridius> xerox: Carbon apps 03:31 < JBeshir> That's what I said 03:31 < JBeshir> >:P 03:31 < Eridius> JBeshir: err no, nearly every Apple product is Cocoa 03:32 < Eridius> even the Finder is now Cocoa, and that was only Carbon originally to prove to third-party developers that Carbon was viable 03:32 < JBeshir> Eridius: I was joking; that's a recent development, I've been generally horrified in the past to discover how very slow Apple has been to update. 03:32 < Eridius> every remaining Carbon app from Apple was originally a third-party app that was acquired by Apple 03:32 < Eridius> JBeshir: what do you mean? 03:32 < JBeshir> Eridius: OS X users continually complain about people who're slow to port to Cocoa (and 64bit, too). Apple have historically been one of the biggest offenders. It was a throwaway joke. 03:33 < Eridius> huh? There are very few examples of Carbon apps that have been ported to Cocoa. Usually, that only happens by the app being end-of-lifed and a new app being written that does the same thing 03:34 < Eridius> as for 64bit, I have no clue what you're even referring to. People weren't encouraged to create 64bit apps until Snow Leopard, and Apple shipped almost every single app on the system as 64bit 03:34 < JBeshir> There is no 64bit Carbon API 03:34 < JBeshir> That is the relevance 03:35 < xerox> So Carbon preceded Cocoa, and what are some apps that haven't been ported? 03:35 < Eridius> I'm still not seeing what your point is. And there certainly is 64bit Carbon code - there's just no 64bit HIToolbox. Apple did that on purpose in order to force everybody to move off of Carbon (it will probably be deprecated officially in a few years) 03:35 < Eridius> xerox: actually no, Cocoa preceeded Carbon 03:35 < Eridius> Cocoa is based on NeXTStep's frameworks 03:35 < JBeshir> Can we go back to you telling everyone why Go should be more like Cocoa and require continual reencoding and encourage people to assume their code will never see a character outside the BMP? 03:36 < Eridius> Carbon was created when third-party developers told Apple that they weren't going to rewrite their apps for Cocoa (think apps like Photoshop). So Apple created Carbon in order to provide an environment that preexisting monolithic third-party apps could easily port to 03:36 < JBeshir> Because you find the idea of looking at a string's *bytes* right there in the open in a systems programming language horrifying for some personal reason? 03:37 < Eridius> JBeshir: why do you keep misrepresenting my argument? Do you truly not understand what I'm suggesting? 03:37 < Eridius> as for looking at a string's bytes, I see no reason at all why a language that provides a strongly-typed byte array, and an easy way to convert between byte arrays and strings, should expose a string's underlying bytes without requiring said type conversion 03:37 < JBeshir> Why shouldn't it? 03:37 < Eridius> it makes it too easy to treat a string as a sequence of bytes instead of a sequence of characters 03:37 < xerox> Eridius: why was it easier to user Carbon instead of Cocoa for those monolithic apps? 03:38 < JBeshir> Why should that be hard? 03:38 < Eridius> xerox: because Carbon was brought up on OS 9, so apps could start using it a year or 2 before OS X was publicly available. In addition, it was based on C and was essentially an evolution of the existing window toolbox APIs, so apps could be ported to it easily 03:38 < JBeshir> If you're in a systems programming language, why is it bad that people are close to and see the actual operation of thigns? 03:38 < Eridius> whereas with Cocoa, apps have to be rewritten in Obj-C 03:38 -!- perdix [n=perdix@f055052058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 03:39 < Eridius> JBeshir: Go already makes it pretty trivial to convert a string into a []byte. If I want to see bytes, I should have to do said conversion. 03:39 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@194.182.65-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:39 < JBeshir> Why? 03:39 -!- mkanat [n=mkanat@c-67-188-1-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts ["Ex-Chat"] 03:39 < JBeshir> You keep asserting that you "should". But why? 03:39 < Eridius> because otherwise it makes the string type pointless 03:40 < Eridius> the concept of a string has a meaning that's separate from its representation as a sequence of bytes 03:40 < JBeshir> Yeah, I guess everything else the string type provides, including immutability and efficient slicing, is pointless. 03:40 < Eridius> when I'm working with strings, I shouldn't be looking at bytes. If I want to look at bytes, I should be using a []byte 03:40 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 03:40 < Eridius> but a string here is basically a []byte + extra functions. It basically just makes the string type fairly useless 03:41 < JBeshir> If you really really want to be insulated from the underlying hardware such that you can pretend that you're not actually writing on a computer at all, I suggest Python or possibly Visual Basic 03:41 < Eridius> JBeshir: can you please stop patronizing me? 03:41 < JBeshir> Not really, because your fundamental bitch here is "I don't like seeing how things really are, I want to be separated from the implementation!" 03:42 < Eridius> no it's not 03:42 < JBeshir> Which calls for higher level languages than Go. 03:42 < Eridius> my complaint here is that Go has a string type, but the string type doesn't seem to actually add anything to the language 03:42 < Eridius> it doesn't make it any easier to work with sequences of characters 03:42 < Eridius> so what's the point? 03:42 < JBeshir> Except... it does. 03:42 < Eridius> no, it has lots of functions that do, but you could do a string replace of "string" with 03:43 < JBeshir> Via slicing for substrings, immutability for safety, and the range operator. 03:43 < Eridius> ..with "[]byte" on the functions and it would be the same 03:43 < JBeshir> Not to mention the fact that you CAN optionally index on character. 03:43 < fgb> eriduius, strings are utf-8 compliant 03:43 < JBeshir> It's O(n), because it does it properly, but you can do it. 03:43 -!- Zeffrin [n=zeffrin@203.141.132.221.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Success] 03:44 < Eridius> JBeshir: how do you index on character? I'm not seeing anything beyond strings.Runes(s)[i] 03:44 < JBeshir> I think that's it, unless there's another helper function in there. 03:44 < Eridius> I'm actually rather surprised there isn't. strings.Runes(s)[i] does a lot more work than necessary, unless I'm trying to extract the last character 03:45 < JBeshir> It's still probably more efficient that a single one of the "reencode representation of string" things in your favourite library, so you shouldn't complain there. 03:45 < JBeshir> It's also not really necessary very often at all. 03:45 -!- scarabx [n=scarabx@c-24-147-239-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:45 < JBeshir> You can't break at a given character to break at so many characters on screen safely, because some unicode codepoints combine to a single thing onscreen. 03:46 < JBeshir> You typically need to break at the location of a given substring, which can as easily be a byte location as a character one 03:46 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!"] 03:46 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, nathanielk, Exstatica, xid, mjburgess, carllerche, BMeph, vincent_, dizm, fission6, (+22 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 03:46 < JBeshir> Or at a byte count for storage or distribution online. 03:46 < Eridius> JBeshir: I didn't say Go should be constantly reencoding strings. And your trivialization of Cocoa as "[my] favorite library" is insulting. I didn't bring it up because I said it was my favorite library. I brought it up as an example of a very widely-used production-ready frameworks that solve this problem using UTF-16 03:46 -!- nightmouse [n=scheiber@c-69-247-77-241.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:46 < Eridius> you kept claiming UTF-16 has all these problems, but go tell that to everybody writing OS X/iPhone apps and they'll laugh at you 03:47 < kuroneko> meh. UTF-16 has problems. should be using UTF_32. 03:47 * kuroneko ducks :) 03:47 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@212.31-ppp.3menatwork.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:47 < Eridius> simple example for why strings-as-byte-arrays sucks: if I want the 2nd character of a string, I can't just say str[1]. 03:47 < Eridius> and as I said before, strings.Runes(s)[1] will do _far_ more work than necessary 03:47 < JBeshir> Right, you can't, but the second character of a string doesn't give you much of any use. 03:48 < JBeshir> As I said, it could be a codepoint that's intended to be added to the previous codepoint to apply accenting or similar crap 03:48 < Eridius> no? 03:48 < Eridius> only if the entire string is meant for display 03:48 < Eridius> and if you are talking about combining marks, UTF-8 vs. UTF-16 is suddenly irrelevant 03:48 < JBeshir> Precisely, it is. 03:49 -!- smcq__ [n=smcq@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 03:49 < Eridius> e.g. your arguments about how UTF-16 sucks are pretty irrelevant 03:49 < JBeshir> Nope, they aren't. UTF-8 vs UTF-16 is irrelevant in terms of any advantages of UTF-16, but one has double the RAM usage and tries to hide that it can't actually be safely used that way to trick people. 03:49 < kuroneko> eh? 03:50 < Eridius> eh? You're talking about combining marks and making assumptions of all-ASCII strings in the exact same sentence. 03:50 < JBeshir> No assumption, merely a common case estimation of RAM usage. 03:50 < kuroneko> actually, I would argue it does make life substantially easier when playing with combining marks 03:50 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-81.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:51 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@cpe-67-9-131-167.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:51 < fgb> btw, if I'm not mistaken runes are 32bits now in plan9port and in go 03:51 < Eridius> JBeshir: once you start using other languages than English, the RAM delta goes waaay down. And in some languages, UTF-16 will be smaller than UTF-8 03:51 < JBeshir> Eridius: It does, yes, but English is the common case. 03:51 < kuroneko> with a string as an array of glpyhs, you're guaranteed that s[x+1] is the succeeding glyph to s[x] 03:52 < Eridius> JBeshir: combining marks are rare in English. Once you start talking about them as a serious issue, you have to drop your assumption of using English 03:52 < JBeshir> Eridius: My point, anyway, is that, and this has been given as the big reason on the mailing list, indexing by character is very very rarely useful, and has big overheads either in terms of representation (which requires conversion for usage, often) or indexing. 03:52 < kuroneko> which is quite relevant when dealing with combining characters 03:52 < JBeshir> Eridius: ...no. That's not how things work. 03:52 < Eridius> not in your world, certainly 03:52 < JBeshir> Eridius: You can discuss performance characteristics based on the common case, while requiring that things work in all cases. 03:53 < Eridius> JBeshir: I don't disagree 03:53 < JBeshir> Eridius: Cool, then I'm right. 03:53 < fgb> relax 03:53 < Eridius> and now you've lost me again. 03:54 < JBeshir> Eridius: I'm saying that UTF-16 has worse performance characteristics in far and away the most common case, but doesn't offer any guarantees that UTF-8 doesn't for "all cases". 03:55 < Eridius> yes, you keep saying that, but you have yet to explain why you're claiming that. Every time I give you a counter-argument to a point, you either patronize me, or you change what you're arguing about. 03:55 -!- qbit_ [n=qbit_@c-75-71-160-106.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 03:55 < JBeshir> I've explained it at some length. 03:55 < kuroneko> JBeshir: and your claim is blatantly false. 03:55 < JBeshir> kuroneko: Which? 03:55 < Eridius> no, you've given me numerous arguments, but haven't actually supported any of them with anything more substantive than their original declaration 03:55 -!- Method [n=Method@nat-3-135.snu.edu] has joined #go-nuts 03:55 < kuroneko> well, for UTF-16 maybe not, but UTF-32, which is an extension of the principle are 03:56 < JBeshir> kuroneko: Yes, UTF-32 is something different, thanks. 03:56 < Eridius> kuroneko: UTF-32 does have a serious drawback, which is that in nearly every single case it is using vastly more RAM than either UTF-8 or UTF-16 03:56 -!- maruel [n=maruel_2@google1.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56 < Eridius> and it doesn't solve the combining mark problem either. 03:56 < kuroneko> Eridius: maybe, but ram is cheap, strings ought not to be the bulk of your code 03:56 < Eridius> kuroneko: yes thank you, I argued that point earlier 03:56 < JBeshir> Eridius: Yes, this is because if you disagree with a claim used to back up an argument you're supposed to dispute it. 03:56 < JBeshir> This is how reasoning works. 03:56 -!- maruel [n=maruel_2@google1.osuosl.org] has joined #go-nuts 03:56 < kuroneko> it makes for faster point slicing by far 03:56 < JBeshir> You start from commonly agreed postulates and show a result. 03:57 < Eridius> I'm just saying UTF-32's only real benefit over UTF-16 is no surrogate pairs, but since you have to handle combining marks anyway, surrogate pairs really aren't a problem in UTF-16 03:57 < kuroneko> and you don't suffer word size performance penalties for point by point comparison 03:57 < JBeshir> Thus, an argument is made by laying out your postulates and showing the conclusion, and if people disagree with the postulates you then recurse. 03:57 < Eridius> JBeshir: saying "I disagree" isn't the same thing as backing up your claim 03:57 < kuroneko> at least, not on the 32bit machines >_> 03:58 < Eridius> JBeshir: your postulates are what other people would call conclusions. You aren't backing them up 03:59 < anticw_> kuroneko: ram is cheap, caches are not 03:59 < Eridius> ugh, ok, this has taken 45 minutes so far. I'm going back to working on my code. 03:59 < JBeshir> Eridius: There's no separation betwen postulates and conclusions. Postulates are merely previous conclusions or assumed ones used to reason for further ones. 03:59 < JBeshir> Eridius: And I feel I have quite well justified my reasoning. 04:00 < JBeshir> Eridius: You can always post to the list, and maybe someone will be kind enough to copy and paste whatever they said to the last three people who did. 04:00 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00 < kuroneko> anticw_: cache exhaustion is about the only reasonable call against I've ever heard, and I don't think it's a significant enough issue to discourage serious use 04:00 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- stesla [n=samuel@saffron.thoughtlocker.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- franksalim [n=frank@adsl-76-221-202-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- eek [n=eivind@213-155-151-233.customer.teliacarrier.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- L29Ah [n=L29Ah@jabber.spbu.ru] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- dizm [n=dizm@121.98.168.127] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- cablehead [n=Adium@nat/slide/x-vgrcyqskhorohjwt] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- fission6 [n=zach@nyc01.limewire.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- lstoll [n=lstoll@randall.lstoll.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- crakrjak [n=merc@rrcs-70-62-156-154.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- tokuhiro0 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- iant [n=iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- tomaw_ [i=tomaw@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- vincent_ [n=vincent@li89-236.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- Altercation [n=Altercat@pdpc/supporter/active/altercation] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- philips [n=brandon@opensuse/member/philips] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- mjburgess [n=michael@m1.mjburgess.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- eharmon [n=eharmon@74.204.161.105] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- skerner [n=skerner@74.202.225.33] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- Exstatica [i=Exstatic@freenode/staff/exstatica] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- ServerMode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by irc.freenode.net 04:00 < kuroneko> ow. 04:00 < kuroneko> damn you freenode! damn you! 04:00 < Eridius> JBeshir: if the argument given on the list is as well-founded as yours, then it won't answer anything. 04:01 < JBeshir> Eridius: And if your argument never progresses beyond "ew, bytes" I wonder if anyone will even bother to reply to it 04:01 < spikebike> yeah hard to imagine 1 byte per char vs 2 byte per char strings being a big issue these days 04:01 < skelterjohn> i declare an end to this argument. 04:01 < Eridius> JBeshir: I gave plenty of justification for my position, you just ignored it. 04:01 < skelterjohn> ! 04:01 < skelterjohn> i said an end! 04:01 < spikebike> typically doubling/halving cache sizes have relatively minor effects 04:01 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 04:01 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01 < JBeshir> Eridius: No, I replied as to how it was wrong, justified, and then moved on. 04:01 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Killed by sagan.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 04:01 < anticw_> kuroneko: i've written a couple of email processors ... i've not deeply consider i18n issues (laziness mostly) but they would care if all strings were 4x the space 04:01 * JBeshir moves on now. 04:01 < skelterjohn> *hiss* 04:02 < kuroneko> anticw_: whereas I care about utf-8 giving me the shits when having to do point-slicing on strings for i18n safe code 04:02 < anticw_> i understand that argument, that's partly why i've ignored it in places myself 04:03 * spikebike looks for a path.walk example 04:03 < Eridius> JBeshir: you never actually addressed my original argument. You simply patronized me, and then went back to reciting your tired list of why UTF-16 sucks 04:03 < kuroneko> whereas all the justifications for utf-8 I've seen revolve around endian-safe encodings, which is fine for interchange, but why are you wasting my CPU time when I slice/iterate? and libc compatibility 04:03 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:04 < kuroneko> which shouldn't be an issue in go-land 04:05 -!- stalled [n=411@95-24-184-93.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #go-nuts 04:05 < Eridius> UTF-8's main benefit is if you know you're working in ASCII, it's pretty trivial to use. But once you start talking about the drawbacks of UTF-16 (e.g. surrogate pairs), you've left that assumption behind 04:05 < Eridius> and if you're handling multi-byte codepoints and combining marks and the like, the same APIs you use would almost certainly handle surrogate pairs in UTF-16 anyway 04:05 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, nathanielk, Exstatica, xid, mjburgess, carllerche, BMeph, vincent_, dizm, fission6, (+19 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 04:06 < Eridius> if you're not indexing into specific characters, your arguments against UTF-16 go away. And if you are, you need those APIs anyhow 04:06 < Eridius> here's a quick example of why UTF-16 would be significantly better for me than UTF-8 - I want to get the last character of a string 04:06 < Eridius> in UTF-16, that's trivial. Read the last unichar. If it's a low surrogate character, grab the previous codepoint as well. 04:07 < Eridius> In UTF-8 I have to read potentially 6 bytes out of the string, and reading multiple bytes is significantly more common than hitting a surrogiate pair 04:07 < Eridius> hell, with my use case (testing the last char), I don't even care if I find a surrogate pair. I can just grab the last unichar and test on that 04:08 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@174-27-183-117.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10 < Eridius> hrm... is there no way to treat a string as a []byte without copying the bytes? 04:11 -!- Netsplit over, joins: eek 04:11 < JBeshir> No, because strings are immutable and arrays of bytes are not. 04:11 < Eridius> JBeshir: yes I know, but it means I can't do a byte-wise search of a string 04:12 < Eridius> well, I suppose I could use for i := range len(s); 04:12 < spikebike> added 51 changesets with 214 changes to 184 files 04:12 < Eridius> and then index into the string 04:12 < spikebike> damn 04:12 < Eridius> it's just irritating that I can't use bytes.IndexByte() 04:12 < spikebike> that's just since yesterday 04:13 < Eridius> granted, I could just search for "/" instead and screw the potential performance implications, but hey, I thought strings were really just UTF-8 byte arrays for performance reasons? 04:13 < JBeshir> What's the performance difference here? 04:13 < JBeshir> What're you trying to do? 04:14 < Eridius> I want to know if the string contains a slash. As a slash is an ASCII character, I have no need to split the string into runes and compare each rune. 04:14 < skelterjohn> "for i := range len(s)" this isn't python 04:14 < uriel> Eridius: use an index and a counter 04:14 < Eridius> nor do I need to do substring-searching, because that implies a more complicated algorithm for doing substring matching that may not be ideal for searching for a single byte 04:14 < skelterjohn> or does range <int> work? 04:14 < Eridius> skelterjohn: I was just assuming there. I don't know if that's actually legal 04:14 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-164-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.1-dev"] 04:14 < Eridius> skelterjohn: I could say for i := 0; i < len(s); i++ 04:15 < uriel> Eridius: exactly 04:15 < skelterjohn> yeah - range isn't a function that makes a list 04:15 < Eridius> skelterjohn: no, it's a keyword 04:15 < skelterjohn> it's a function that takes a list (or list-like thing) and iterates 04:15 < Eridius> and one could define the semantics of range on an int as giving a list from 0 to int-1 04:15 < Eridius> that would be perfectly reasonable semantics 04:15 < skelterjohn> one could 04:16 < Eridius> according to the language spec, it can't be an int. But that's ok, I was just using that to illustrate my point 04:18 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-124-22-4.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:18 -!- mjburgess [n=michael@m1.mjburgess.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 04:18 < JBeshir> Eridius: Then yeah, the only way to do it is to index over until you find it. 04:18 < JBeshir> Substring searching works for non-ASCII characters. 04:19 * Eridius ponders.. func Iter(max int) { c := make(chan int); go func() { for i := 0; i < max; i++ { c <- i } }; return c }; for i := range Iter(len(s)) 04:19 < Eridius> JBeshir: yes, substring searching does. But in my use-case, I only need to search for "/" 04:19 < JBeshir> Yep. 04:20 < Eridius> oh maybe I should close(c); in that Iter func 04:20 < JBeshir> (This is also a common case, as separators are often ASCII) 04:20 < Eridius> JBeshir: I'm mildly surprised there's no strings.IndexByte() function for this purpose 04:20 < Eridius> which is why I wanted to be able to convert the string to a []byte without copying, so I could use bytes.IndexByte 04:24 -!- werdan7_ [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- stesla [n=samuel@saffron.thoughtlocker.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- franksalim [n=frank@adsl-76-221-202-115.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- L29Ah [n=L29Ah@jabber.spbu.ru] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- dizm [n=dizm@121.98.168.127] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- cablehead [n=Adium@nat/slide/x-vgrcyqskhorohjwt] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- fission6 [n=zach@nyc01.limewire.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- lstoll [n=lstoll@randall.lstoll.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- crakrjak [n=merc@rrcs-70-62-156-154.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- tokuhiro0 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- iant [n=iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- tomaw_ [i=tomaw@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- vincent_ [n=vincent@li89-236.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- Altercation [n=Altercat@pdpc/supporter/active/altercation] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- philips [n=brandon@opensuse/member/philips] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- eharmon [n=eharmon@74.204.161.105] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- skerner [n=skerner@74.202.225.33] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- highb [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- Exstatica [i=Exstatic@freenode/staff/exstatica] has joined #go-nuts 04:24 -!- ServerMode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by irc.freenode.net 04:25 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 04:25 < anticw_> when is the semi-change slated to be done? 04:26 < Eridius> oh hrm, vector doesn't have a way of creating a new Vector from a slice? That's somewhat irritating 04:26 < anticw_> it looks like there are patches for most of it floating about but not commited 04:26 -!- qbit_ [n=qbit_@c-75-71-160-106.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:30 < Ycros> Eridius: yeah, it would be very nice to be able to do that 04:30 * Eridius heads home 04:30 -!- Eridius [n=kevin@growl/Eridius] has quit ["leaving"] 04:30 -!- maverick [n=maverick@cm83.gamma141.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 04:30 -!- maverick [n=maverick@cm83.gamma141.maxonline.com.sg] has left #go-nuts [] 04:34 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@53.250.sfcn.org] has joined #go-nuts 04:36 -!- nightmouse [n=scheiber@c-69-247-77-241.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:39 -!- Rob_Russell [n=chatzill@206-248-157-156.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:45 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, nathanielk, Exstatica, xid, carllerche, BMeph, vincent_, dizm, fission6, stesla, (+18 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 04:45 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-98-210-159-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:50 -!- absurdhero [n=absurdhe@c-98-248-39-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:53 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 04:53 -!- Netsplit over, joins: soul9, rrr, franksalim, nathanielk, skerner, stesla, vhost-, xid, adiabatic, L29Ah (+17 more) 04:55 -!- qbit_ [n=qbit_@c-75-71-160-106.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 04:56 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-98-210-159-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:57 -!- Alkavan_ [n=alkavan@87.68.247.236.adsl.012.net.il] has joined #go-nuts 04:59 -!- MadMethod [n=Method@nat-3-135.snu.edu] has joined #go-nuts 05:00 -!- tabo` [n=tabot@camelot.tabo.pe] has joined #go-nuts 05:00 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: akheron, Solver, Innominate, drry, maruel, atsampso1, harja, viirya_, ni|, rbohn 05:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: rbohn 05:02 -!- Netsplit over, joins: maruel 05:02 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #go-nuts 05:03 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: absurdhero_, dg, tabo, johan-s, chrome, idemal, eno_, scm, jajamana, ukai, (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 05:04 -!- scm [i=justme@c132060.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 05:04 -!- ni| [n=james@c-24-34-220-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:05 -!- viirya [n=viirya@cml506-25.csie.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #go-nuts 05:06 -!- atsampson [n=ats@94-193-50-45.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- scm [i=justme@c132060.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 05:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: absurdhero_, eno_, scoopr, jajamana 05:07 -!- scm [n=svencm@213.39.132.60] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: john6, lmoura, ukai, idemal, chrome, woremacx, dg 05:07 -!- scm_ [i=justme@c132060.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-81.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Success] 05:07 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- viirya_ [n=viirya@140.112.29.179] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- atsampso1 [n=ats@94-193-50-45.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- drry [n=drry@unaffiliated/drry] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- Innominate [n=sirrobin@cpe-071-077-041-139.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:07 -!- viirya_ [n=viirya@140.112.29.179] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:07 -!- atsampso1 [n=ats@94-193-50-45.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: johan-s 05:07 -!- harja_ [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:08 -!- akher0n [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:08 -!- scoopr_ [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:10 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:13 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has quit ["What do you mean 'distractable'? My mind's like a steel --Ooh, Shiny!"] 05:14 -!- scoopr [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:15 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:15 -!- fwiffo [n=fwiffo@189.35.96.122] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:18 -!- smooge [n=smooge@12.51.54.238] has joined #go-nuts 05:18 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:21 -!- timmcd [n=Adium@97-117-100-106.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:21 -!- Alkavan [n=alkavan@87.68.247.236.adsl.012.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21 < timmcd> Hello! 05:21 < fgb> Elloh! 05:24 < e1f> has the go rant been posted? "why google's go is a bore" 05:24 -!- scm [n=svencm@213.39.132.60] has quit [Success] 05:24 < JBeshir> e1f: There's about 100 of them on the mailing list. 05:25 < e1f> oh i see 05:29 < uriel> we need a new rant: "why lazy ignorant people that whinne about what they don't know or understand are such a bore" 05:32 < e1f> i thought this one was pretty good 05:33 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: drry, harja_ 05:35 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: dg, akher0n, scoopr_, jajamana, lmoura, idemal, absurdhero_, chrome, Fraeon, ukai, (+2 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 05:35 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #go-nuts 05:36 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 05:37 -!- Netsplit over, joins: harja_, drry 05:39 -!- hstimer [n=hans@c-98-234-25-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:39 < nf> e1f: I found some of the ad hominem stuff in it a bit off-putting 05:40 < uriel> I didn't find the ad hominem off-putting, what was off-putting was all the missinformed babling 05:40 < Ycros> what go rant 05:40 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- scoopr_ [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- akher0n [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- absurdhero_ [n=absurdhe@c-98-248-39-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- jajamana [n=chrisb@cm-84.215.16.37.getinternet.no] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- john6 [n=john6@210.107.195.141] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- ukai [n=ukai@220.109.219.244] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- idemal [n=idemal@penzance.fohost.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- chrome [i=chrome@mars.stupendous.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- woremacx [n=woremacx@unaffiliated/woremacx] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- dg [i=dgl@d.cx] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- scoopr [n=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:40 -!- akher0n [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40 < uriel> "hey, this language is not like the languages I'm used to! and it doesn't have feature XXX and yy, and zzz, so it sucks!" 05:40 < JBeshir> The rant sucks and fails because it's hosted on a site which uses inpage popup ads. 05:41 < e1f> well, i ignored the ad hominem 05:41 < JBeshir> So I refuse to read it, or even visit that site again. 05:41 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-98-210-159-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:41 < jessta> JBeshir: good cal 05:41 < jessta> *call 05:41 < uriel> JBeshir: heh, that too, I was rather disapointed because I liked the html style of the page 05:41 < e1f> oh i didn't notice any ads 05:41 < e1f> i have js off 05:41 < e1f> it looked quite plain to me 05:42 < JBeshir> It looked plain right up until some dating site shit appeared on top of the text. 05:43 < e1f> yeah, looks like 1 line of js 05:43 * e1f though everyone used the noscript plugin 05:44 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has joined #go-nuts 05:44 < Ycros> mmm, I don't, there are a lot of useful javascript-heavy sites out these 05:44 < Ycros> there* 05:45 < e1f> the idea is to turn js on when the site doesn't work 05:45 < e1f> as most sites "work" withough js 05:46 < uriel> NoScript is a gift from heaven 05:46 < JBeshir> As someone who has dabbled in web design, I hate NoScript 05:46 < uriel> now somebody please port it to chrome :) 05:47 < JBeshir> And am tempted to say "You crippled your own browser, I refuse to support you." 05:47 < uriel> I hate people that hate NOScript, any properly built site will work just fine with js disabled 05:47 -!- mattikus [n=mattikus@ip68-227-143-68.br.br.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:47 < JBeshir> uriel: Depends on your definition of "properly built". 05:47 < JBeshir> My issue is that HTML is really really limited, and JavaScript is quite powerful. 05:47 < uriel> no, JS scriples the web, and sites that require js cripple themselves 05:47 < jessta> e1f: I used to use noscript, but guessing when a site wasn't working due to javascript can get annoying 05:47 < JBeshir> Erm, that's not what the word "cripple" means. 05:48 < JBeshir> So long as everyone has to code for NoScript people, everyone is limited to straight HTML, and its limitations. 05:48 < fgb> now the dude in the list thinks I'm an expert in 6a just because I recalled a bit of 8086 asm... 05:48 < JBeshir> And I hate those limitations, because it's a very very shoddily designed markup format. 05:48 < JBeshir> And they're arbitrary and basically random. 05:48 < uriel> JBeshir: wrong, JS should be *optional* 05:49 -!- temme [n=temme@pool-173-71-105-240.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:49 < JBeshir> uriel: I'd like you to point to the line which is wrong. 05:49 < uriel> if your site doesn't work fine with JS disabled, it is broken, period (and same goes for CSS) 05:49 < JBeshir> uriel: Because I get the impression you're yelling "wrong" just to make your point, and can't actually cite a line in which I said the opposite. 05:49 < jessta> yeah, JS should be optional, seperation between data and application 05:50 < uriel> 05:48 < JBeshir> So long as everyone has to code for NoScript people, everyone is limited to straight HTML, and its limitations 05:50 < uriel> . 05:50 < uriel> this is clearly *wrong* 05:50 < jessta> if you're going to use JS then you should still make all the data and API available 05:50 < uriel> you are not limited to straight HTML, but straight HTML should *work*, if you add js on top, it should be optional 05:51 < JBeshir> And thus, everyone is limited to straight HTML for everything that matters. 05:51 < JBeshir> uriel: My point is that that model is shit, shouldn't be that way, can't be that way for a few true webapps which need AJAX to communicate with the backend server, and every NoScript person is preventing people from moving on to having websites work like real applications. 05:51 < jessta> JBeshir: you generation simple HTML with a javascript redirect to your javascript pages 05:52 < fgb> uriel, stop feeding the troll 05:52 < uriel> JBeshir: it should be that way, it is that way, and thank god it is that way, or the web would be even worse than it is already 05:52 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-164-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:52 < uriel> fgb: sorry :( 05:52 < fgb> JBeshir, stop feeding the troll ;) 05:52 < fgb> heh 05:52 < fgb> uriel, np, it was a good chance to make a stupid joke 05:52 < JBeshir> uriel: I assume you don't believe that YouTube should exist, then? 05:52 < JBeshir> Since it isn't straight HTML with optional JS? 05:53 < uriel> JBeshir: are you seriously using youtube as an example of a well designed and well built site?!??!?! 05:53 < jessta> JBeshir: I want youtube with straight HTML and links to video files 05:53 < uriel> what jessta said, plus I'd be ok if they use a <video> tag 05:53 < JBeshir> uriel: No, I'm using it as an example of a website that you just said shouldn't exist, doesn't exist (heh), and thank god that it doesn't. 05:54 < uriel> JBeshir: every bit of functionality in youtube could be provided with sane simple clean html without js 05:54 < fgb> of course I'd like to get the flash url and do something like hget http://youtube.com/84023423/flash | flashplayer 05:54 < uriel> and the site would be infinitely more usable 05:54 < fgb> but they have show you the advs! 05:54 < JBeshir> We could move forward a lot if we could use AJAX for things that *mattered*, and it's getting to the point that I think we can, and just tell NoScript people to uncripple their browsers. 05:55 < JBeshir> Supporting no JS people is more annoying than supporting IE6 05:55 < fgb> jbeshir, writing a browser is a PIA 05:55 < uriel> JBeshir: what many people thinks is 'forward' turns out to be quite backwards 05:55 < JBeshir> Basic things like image rollovers require stupidass approaches in pure HTML. 05:55 < fgb> so give us a chance! 05:55 < jessta> JBeshir: seriously NoScript doesn't prevent you from creating AJAX crap 05:55 < uriel> every time I middle click on a link and it messes things up because it is not really a link but a bunch of js, I want to punch somebody in the face 05:56 < jessta> JBeshir: it just means that you have to generate simple html as well 05:56 < Ycros> JBeshir: I honestly don't try to support no-js people a lot of the time, because if you're using NoScript then you've deliberately done that 05:56 < scoopr> isn't image roll-over trivial in css 05:56 < fgb> in any case, this is not about go/golang... is it? 05:56 < JBeshir> scoopr: Not trivial, no, quite annoying. 05:56 < uriel> or every time I get to some content, and I can't bookmark it, because it is all AJAX and shit and 05:56 < JBeshir> scoopr: Also has portability issues, although many just to IE6. 05:56 < JBeshir> uriel: And those are design issues totally unrelated to pure HTMLness 05:56 < JBeshir> uriel: And more related to the same stupid design that led to people using frames 05:57 < JBeshir> (People not giving a shit about it working in the browser properly, basically) 05:57 < scoopr> well yeah, :hover works only for <a> in ie6, I guess 05:57 < uriel> JBeshir: thing is, with NoScript enabled, I have zero of those problems 05:57 < scoopr> jbeshir, http://www.romancortes.com/ficheros/meninas.html ;) 05:57 < timmcd> What if we just ditched JS altogether and browsers start supporting Ruby for the scripting? Yaay! 05:57 < timmcd> Or perhaps Lua... 05:57 < JBeshir> timmcd: No. 05:57 < Ycros> timmcd: yeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no 05:57 < JBeshir> timmcd: I would formally refuse to ever touch the web again. 05:57 < Ycros> that won't happen 05:57 * uriel sighs 05:57 < timmcd> Lol 05:57 < nf> timmcd: why would we want to do that? JS is a great language 05:57 < Ycros> and if it does it will take years and years and years and years 05:58 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, nathanielk, Exstatica, johan-s, xid, carllerche, vincent_, dizm, fission6, stesla, (+19 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 05:58 < timmcd> nf: Ruby and Lua can be fun too! ^_^ 05:58 < timmcd> I do like JS tho, and am loving messing around with <canvas> 05:58 < Ycros> what would be better is a bytecode vm - but we already have that in java, hurr 05:58 < JBeshir> Ycros: And something better in most common JS engines now. 05:58 < JBeshir> (By common, I mean... FF and Chrome, I think, but close enough) 05:59 < Ycros> I mean, Java, Silverlight, Flash, NaCL - all trying to run stuff in the browser 06:00 -!- timmcd [n=Adium@97-117-100-106.slkc.qwest.net] has left #go-nuts [] 06:02 -!- Netsplit over, joins: soul9, rrr, franksalim, nathanielk, skerner, werdan7, hstimer, johan-s, stesla, vhost- (+19 more) 06:02 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-19-116.singnet.com.sg] has quit [] 06:02 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has quit ["I ascend to reality!"] 06:03 < jessta> Ycros: yeah, I'm amazed that 'web application' are so recent, Java had networking in ~1996, was widely available and embedable in webpages and for some reason hardly anybody used it 06:03 -!- temme [n=temme@pool-173-71-105-240.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03 < JBeshir> I wonder why. 06:03 < jessta> you reckon html,css,javascript is better than java? 06:04 < jessta> I hate java, but compared with current web design it's awesome 06:04 < nf> it was slow at the time, as were networks 06:04 < JBeshir> Hmm, touche, but Java's still way too fat. 06:04 < nf> also the VM doesn't load on a lot of machines now 06:04 < jessta> ..and javascript is still slow now 06:04 -!- Fl1pFl0p [n=FlipFlop@ip68-8-225-187.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:04 < nf> for example it won't load on my linux workstation here! no applets work 06:05 < jessta> JBeshir: java isn't any more fat than your web browser 06:05 < nf> javascript is fast enough for many applications, as is demonstrated by its success 06:05 < JBeshir> jessta: I don't mean speed so much as RAM and startup times. 06:05 < Ycros> nf: aye 06:05 < jessta> yeah, I mean those too 06:05 < JBeshir> Back in, hmm, 2002~? 06:05 < JBeshir> Java took 30 seconds to *start* embedded into a website. 06:06 < jessta> java's startup time compared to firefox is pretty damn good 06:06 < JBeshir> To be fair, that's not really a statement about Java. 06:06 < nf> java has come a very long way, and is pretty fantastic these days 06:06 < JBeshir> I'm saying that the startup page embedded into a site kinda impeded usage of it taking off, though. 06:07 < jessta> yeah, because you're starting java on demand, where as the web browser is already loaded 06:07 -!- scoopr_ [i=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:07 < JBeshir> Right. 06:07 -!- dju_ [i=dju@89-158-203-183.rev.dartybox.com] has quit ["Quitte"] 06:07 < Ycros> flash is fast. It's used in places java used to be used now 06:07 < jessta> but if the web browser didn't have javascript, css, etc. you'd just load Java when you loaded the web browser anyway 06:08 < Ycros> though it hasn't had a decent UI toolkit up until recent times 06:08 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@d64-180-45-230.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:08 < JBeshir> Browsers would have a better language, and five times the RAM usage. 06:08 < Ycros> and now microsoft are pushing silverlight on us, which is just more of the same (but supports better languages ;)) 06:08 < JBeshir> On the bright side, fewer static websites. 06:08 < JBeshir> Ycros: Silverlight isn't more of the same, it's evil. 06:08 < Ycros> no, it's more of the same 06:08 < Ycros> JBeshir: some websites are fine static 06:09 < Ycros> ie. mostly text stuff 06:09 < jessta> JBeshir: are you trying to tell me that java uses more RAM than a similar javascript application? 06:09 < nf> silverlight is closed with proprietary dev tools. that's evil enough fo me 06:09 < JBeshir> jessta: I'm saying a browser using it heavily would, yeah. And it wouldn't surprise me, actually. 06:09 < Ycros> but web applications are great 06:09 < JBeshir> Ycros, nf: They're doing deliberately shoddy Linux implementations to make people create websites which only work on Windows. 06:09 < Ycros> nf: yeah, somewhat, there is the moonlight open source implementation for linux 06:09 < JBeshir> This has been DIRECTLY STATED by Ballmer. 06:09 < uriel> wow, you guys still at it? 06:09 < JBeshir> It's evil. 06:09 < Ycros> hur 06:10 < Ycros> it's a nice piece of technology, but I wouldn't use it myself 06:10 < JBeshir> Ycros: Yeah, he seriously said it as business strategy in an interview. I was like "...what? Did he actually say that?" 06:10 < Ycros> uriel: sure, we're nuts 06:10 < anticw_> uriel: S/N is well down 06:10 < Ycros> JBeshir: wow, that's fairly harsh 06:11 -!- droid001 [n=g1@p4FDC9F6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 06:11 < Ycros> it's a shame microsoft employ so many awesome technical people 06:11 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:11 < JBeshir> It was part of "Why IE helps Windows" 06:11 < Ycros> heh 06:11 < JBeshir> "Sure, you can make crossplatform Silverlight applications, but it'll be easier and prettier to do them just for Windows." was the gist of it. 06:11 < JBeshir> Then you rely on programmer laziness and liking of shiny... 06:11 < Ycros> yeah. 06:11 < Ycros> I used to work as a C# programmer 06:12 < JBeshir> Extend, embrace, extinguish, but with their own software for once. 06:12 < Ycros> we talked about a linux port, maybe, but I knew it wouldn't happen because mono just wouldn't run our app 06:12 < JBeshir> Instead of someone else's. 06:12 < Ycros> the API coverage on mono is poor 06:12 < JBeshir> And yet, people still claim C# is crossplatform... 06:12 < Ycros> and we had a lot of cases where we interface with the C windows APIs 06:12 < JBeshir> It's more of the same, really. 06:12 < nf> anyone here interested in Go under NaCl ? 06:13 -!- droid001 [n=g1@p4FDC9BF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:14 < Ycros> yeah, if I need crossplatform I lean towards Python... and maybe Qt for the UI 06:14 < anticw> nf: a little 06:15 < nf> i still haven't found any wonderful use-case for NaCl 06:15 < Ycros> yeah 06:15 < nf> something that has a graphical user interface and requires a lot of cpu time ? 06:15 < Ycros> can NaCl interact with the browser DOM? 06:15 < nf> i'm not sure about that 06:15 < nf> i think to an extent 06:16 < nf> not like js though 06:16 -!- mattikus [n=mattikus@ip68-227-143-68.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:17 < nf> i don't see any api support here, but i may not be looking hard enough: http://nativeclient.googlecode.com/svn/data/docs_tarball/nacl/googleclient/native_client/scons-out/doc/html/index.html 06:17 < jessta> I doubt it does 06:17 < jessta> but why would it need to? 06:18 < nf> to provide a back-end to some web app? 06:18 < nf> eg, client-side image resizing before uploading somewhere? 06:19 < nf> the form etc could all be html/js, the back-end handled by an NaCl-wrapped program 06:20 < uriel> nf: what about writinga DOOM in Go for NaCl ;) 06:20 < Ycros> jessta: you can interact with flash from js 06:20 < Ycros> I'm not sure about flash -> DOM 06:20 < jessta> ...why wouldn't the NaCI just submit the form it self 06:20 < Ycros> jessta: for example http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/ 06:21 < jessta> why mix html and NaCI? 06:21 < Ycros> jessta: flash handles the sound on that page, but has no UI at all - JS and html provide all the UI 06:21 < jessta> but why would you do that? 06:21 < uriel> what does Flash have to do with anything? 06:21 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 06:22 < nf> uriel: cute, but i'd rather write a new game in Go =) 06:22 < jessta> your page is either a web application or a html page 06:22 < uriel> anyway, if you use NaCL, I think for the most part it makes little sense to interact with the rest of the page, better to limit it to embeded specialized components 06:22 < uriel> like games 06:22 < jessta> a mix is retarded 06:22 < uriel> nf: heh, that is cool too 06:22 < uriel> jessta: indeed 06:23 < nf> jessta: why? we embed web applications in normal web pages all the time 06:23 < jessta> your web application communicates with your web server over a REST api of some kind, and you publish this API so other people can use it in their applications 06:23 < nf> do i ? !? 06:23 < jessta> you should 06:23 < jessta> because it's far less retarded 06:24 < nf> you've come to the crux of the argument, i think 06:24 < nf> it's the difference between "should" and "do" 06:24 < nf> idealism vs pragmatism 06:24 < jessta> mixing data and code is crazy 06:24 < nf> of course we *should* be using something more elegant than html/css/js, but we have come very far with just that 06:25 < jessta> your web application, evn if you make it in javascript, shouldn't be compatible with NoScript 06:25 < JBeshir> I'd just like to interject that out of the three, JS is the most sane 06:25 < JBeshir> Why must you deny me it, people, why? :( 06:25 < nf> i think you need to incrementally approach the ideal. the creation of Go was definitely in that spirit 06:26 < nf> JBeshir: it's more a matter of selectively choosing who you should allow to run code in your browser 06:26 < nf> and it is true, that for accessibility reasons your site should still function with JS disabled. of course this doesn't apply to rich JS applications 06:26 < JBeshir> nf: My view on that is that it's far better to restrict behaviours than "code". 06:27 * spikebike would like to see source for a restful api in go 06:27 < JBeshir> My view on that is that said accessible versions should expect to be very limited, and shouldn't expect to *look good*. 06:27 < nf> JBeshir: our browsers currently do a poor job at giving that kind of fine-grained control, so people that aren't happy with the default have to opt for the extreme (noscript) 06:27 < JBeshir> Could always adopt Yahoo's model of A, C, X browsers. 06:27 < JBeshir> And just throw NoScript in as C automatically. 06:28 < JBeshir> "You don't want JS? Cool, you get the text-only, no formatting version of the site." 06:28 < nf> see i wish i could ask that of almost every website 06:28 < nf> because 95% of the sites i visit, all i want is the content 06:32 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.137.254] has joined #go-nuts 06:34 < spikebike> nf yeah same here, cept for some google sites 06:34 < spikebike> maps, docs, and related 06:36 < JBeshir> But there's so many better ways to present and sort information than via flat pages of text... 06:36 < jessta> indeed 06:36 < jessta> there are 06:37 < jessta> but it's likely that the way I want to use the information is different from the way you think I want to use the information 06:37 < jessta> so providing an API to the information is the best thing 06:38 < nf> jessta: for programmers, maybe 06:38 < nf> but most people are users, not programmers 06:38 < uriel> everyone knows users can't read! 06:39 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 06:39 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-19-116.singnet.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 06:41 -!- cryptobeacon [n=cryptobe@unaffiliated/cryptobeacon] has joined #go-nuts 06:44 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 06:47 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 06:51 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@53.250.sfcn.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:51 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:52 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@d64-180-45-230.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:59 < BMeph> tl;dr 07:00 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03 -!- rog [n=rog@78.147.220.142] has joined #go-nuts 07:04 < uriel> good morning rog 07:04 < rog> mornin 07:05 < rog> really is morning here 07:06 -!- sliceofp1 [n=sliceofp@c-98-194-205-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06 -!- sliceofpi [n=sliceofp@c-98-194-205-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:09 < jessta> nf: users will use what they are provide, i.e your ajax web app 07:09 < jessta> *provided 07:10 < jessta> or maybe they'll use another app developed by someone else that uses the same data in a different way 07:10 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-164-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-164-59.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:13 -!- [Pete_27] [n=noname@115.64.1.61] has joined #go-nuts 07:27 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 07:27 -!- Pete_27 [n=noname@115.64.1.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 07:35 -!- roo [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 07:36 -!- trickie [n=trickie@94.100.112.225] has joined #go-nuts 07:41 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has quit [] 07:46 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@c-69-181-129-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:48 -!- inittab- [n=dlbeer@ip-118-90-91-52.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #go-nuts 07:49 -!- johan-s [n=johan@cm-84.215.111.48.getinternet.no] has quit ["awaaaay"] 07:52 -!- DietSnapple [n=Gabe@nat04-resnet-ext.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts 07:52 -!- DietSnapple [n=Gabe@nat04-resnet-ext.rutgers.edu] has left #go-nuts [] 08:00 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has quit ["I ascend to reality!"] 08:03 -!- inittab [n=dlbeer@ip-118-90-1-68.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:03 -!- ShadowIce [i=shadowic@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 08:03 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 08:06 -!- pquerna [n=chip@apache/committer/pquerna] has joined #go-nuts 08:08 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has quit ["I ♥ Unicode"] 08:14 -!- fgb [n=fgb@190.246.85.45] has left #go-nuts [] 08:17 -!- Snert [n=achowe@puff.snert.com] has joined #go-nuts 08:22 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 08:24 -!- johan-s [n=johan@62.70.27.104] has joined #go-nuts 08:26 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has joined #go-nuts 08:27 < Snert> salut tout monde! 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Or will I have to build compilation into the deployment process? 10:20 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-19-116.singnet.com.sg] has quit [] 10:21 -!- ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:24 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 10:24 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:25 -!- ztzg [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:29 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30 < uriel> BleSS: good question, I think you will have to set your $GOOS accordingly 10:31 < uriel> cross compiling accross hardware platforms should certainly work 10:31 < uriel> crosscompiling across OSes might be trickier 10:32 < uriel> in any case, why not just build go on the server? gc is really fast and uses little resources, you can build a huge project as part of the deployment process and not even notice 10:33 < BleSS> uriel: yes, itt's true, I was thinking that would not been possible to use it to web development, thanks! 10:33 -!- Fl1pFl0p [n=FlipFlop@ip68-8-225-187.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #go-nuts [] 10:33 < nf> i suspect you'd need to link against system libraries specific to linux for it to run under linux 10:34 < nf> it'd be possible to set up a cross-compilation environment under os x, but probably easier to just run linux in a vm if you must compile on that machine 10:34 < uriel> given that there are plans to have Go in app engine, I would expect the way to do it will be to upload the code and it will get automatically compiled on the server 10:34 < uriel> nf: not really, because the go runtime doesn't call libc at all 10:34 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-60-82-254-239-192.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:35 < nf> okay, so why couldn't i just compile an amd64 elf and have it run under 64-bit linux anywhere? 10:35 < uriel> I think Go includes the syscall tables for each os, so it is probably possible to just set your $GOOS and build for another os 10:35 < uriel> nf: why you couldn't? no idea, it should work 10:35 < uriel> that certainly should work 10:35 < nf> so in the case of appengine, they might not require server-side compilation 10:36 < uriel> nf: they will, because they will want to check that your code is safe 10:36 < uriel> otherwise you could just as well upload any binary 10:36 < uriel> I guess that the package unsafe will also be unabailable 10:36 < nf> interesting. but it would be non-trivial to check that go source is safe, would it not? 10:36 < nf> maybe they'll leverage some of the NaCl work to sandbox it? 10:37 < uriel> I don't know, not necessarily, they just will limit your APIs, just like they do in python 10:37 < nf> i'm curious to find out :) 10:38 < uriel> more tricky would be the question of runtime lifetime, how they keep you from running too many goroutines and how will they force you to serve a page under x seconds 10:38 -!- boscop [n=unknown@f055058030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:39 < nf> they must already have that resolved for other technologies, though 10:39 < uriel> I guess they could do the equivalent of sticking GOMAXCORES to 1, and then kill your program in case it runs over the deadline for a request 10:39 -!- r2p2 [n=billy@v32671.1blu.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:40 < uriel> well, java and python are really not concurrent at all 10:40 < uriel> (certainly not on app engine) 10:40 -!- PLinka [n=plinka@87.110.231.63] has joined #go-nuts 10:40 < uriel> but Go programs would have the benefit of instantaneous startup, so killing and reusing instances should be feasible 10:41 -!- PLinka [n=plinka@87.110.231.63] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:41 -!- aep [n=aep@libqxt/developer/aep] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 10:43 < nf> but not very efficient :S 10:44 < BleSS> another problem in Go for adoption in web development is the lack of low-level implementations as database drivers 10:44 < nf> i'm not overly familiar with the way appengine is structured - and i'm sure that a lot of it depends on other scalable resources being available in a persistent way - but in my experience with web apps you tend to reduce latency by keeping processes primed to serve requests 10:44 -!- triplez [n=triplez@cm52.sigma225.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 10:45 < nf> BleSS: while this is true, appengine provides a specific set of external resources than general web dev 10:45 < uriel> BleSS: I don't think that will be an problem for app engine *cough* big table *cough* 10:46 < uriel> BleSS: and thre are plenty of libs to access databases elsewhere: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings 10:46 < uriel> plus a few clients in go itself: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/pure-go-libs 10:46 < BleSS> ok, but not everybody will want to use/develp on app engine ;) 10:46 < uriel> BleSS: see ^^^^^^ 10:48 -!- Paradox924X [n=Paradox9@vaserv/irc/founder] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48 -!- Paradox924X [n=Paradox9@245.122.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 10:49 -!- maacl [n=mac@0x573526c8.virnxx17.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 10:51 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-98-210-159-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58 -!- achivetta [n=achivett@128.2.145.5] has quit ["Godspeed"] 10:58 -!- ikke [n=ikkibr@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:06 -!- ikke [n=ikkibr@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has joined #go-nuts 11:18 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:19 < BleSS> to learning go I wanted to build a module to query data from a file data base, but it is not necessary to use a data base since that those data only are going to read, so 11:19 < BleSS> is there any object serialization as pickle in python? 11:20 -!- JSharpe [n=Jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:22 -!- triplez [n=triplez@cm52.sigma225.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 11:25 -!- BleSS [n=quassel@87.223.179.242] has left #go-nuts ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."] 11:25 -!- JSharpe [n=Jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25 -!- JSharpe [n=Jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:26 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 11:27 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-98-210-159-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:28 -!- ShadowIce [i=shadowic@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:29 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 11:29 < r2p2> because there is no function in the sort package for sorting chars in a string - i wanted to implement the data interface functions -> "cannot define new methods on non-local type string" :( 11:32 -!- ShadowIce [i=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 11:34 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has quit [] 11:37 -!- General13372 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:37 < exDM69> r2p2: there was a trick to it by creating a type alias or whatever it was called 11:37 < exDM69> you create a new type that is equal to string and then add interfaces to that 11:37 < exDM69> I'm sure you'll find it in the docs somewhere 11:38 < r2p2> ah cool idea 11:38 < r2p2> thx 11:38 < uriel> BleSS: gob 11:38 < uriel> blah, left already 11:38 < uriel> exDM69: it is not a 'trick' it is the way to do things 11:39 < uriel> it is very nice that you can add methods to any type, but only those inside your package 11:39 < uriel> (that is one of the things I *hate* about ruby, everything monkey patches everything, you have no clue what interface anything implements, or where the implementation comes from) 11:40 < uriel> type MyString string // is clean and simple enough 11:40 < r2p2> i try it... 11:40 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has quit ["Rockin’ music will set you free."] 11:41 < alc> you can take a look at pkg/sort/sort.go. 11:42 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.191.141] has joined #go-nuts 11:42 < r2p2> nice solution | invalid argument s (type *mystring) for len 11:42 < r2p2> ah *s - i am silent =) 11:46 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:55 -!- lotrpy [n=lotrpy@202.38.97.230] has quit [] 11:55 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has quit ["leaving"] 11:55 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 12:05 -!- Rob_Russell [n=chatzill@206-248-157-156.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:09 -!- vigith [n=Vigith@nat/yahoo/x-brtglyxskbavmgwb] has joined #go-nuts 12:09 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has joined #go-nuts 12:11 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@scorpion.mps.com.br] has joined #go-nuts 12:12 < vigith> i am stuck with go installation on Mac OX 10.4.11.. http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=242 is the exact issue i am facing.. is there any solution for this yet :-) 12:13 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@c-98-210-159-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19 < uriel> not AFAIK, you could try gccgo... 12:29 -!- klimek [n=klimek@port-92-194-88-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 12:32 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: skerner, xid, Exstatica, nathanielk, vincent_, dizm, fission6, stesla, rrr, highb, (+16 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 12:37 -!- eiro_ [n=marc@phear.org] has joined #go-nuts 12:37 -!- eiro [n=marc@phear.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:37 < klimek> hi there 12:39 -!- Netsplit over, joins: soul9, rrr, franksalim, nathanielk, skerner, roo, hstimer, stesla, vhost-, xid (+16 more) 12:40 -!- Raziel2p [n=Raziel2p@ti0032a380-dhcp0316.bb.online.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:43 < vigith> uriel: sure 12:43 -!- vigith [n=Vigith@nat/yahoo/x-brtglyxskbavmgwb] has quit ["http://www.vmaurice.com"] 12:47 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 12:52 -!- scoopr [n=scoopr@et.vaan.osaa.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@host81-154-246-241.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:54 -!- harja_ [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has joined #go-nuts 12:55 -!- Metaphorically [n=chatzill@206-248-157-156.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:56 -!- harja [n=maharj@castor.utu.fi] has joined #go-nuts 12:56 < rog> http://codereview.appspot.com/179057 12:57 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@host81-154-246-241.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:57 * rog is quite please with it. 12:57 < rog> s/please/pleased/ 12:57 -!- hcatlin 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/NETSPLIT to show all of them) 13:19 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:20 -!- Netsplit over, joins: soul9, rrr, franksalim, nathanielk, skerner, hstimer, stesla, vhost-, xid, L29Ah (+15 more) 13:20 -!- Rob_Russell [n=chatzill@206-248-157-156.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 13:21 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:21 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 13:23 -!- exn [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has quit ["see you later"] 13:25 -!- JSharpe [n=Jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:26 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.130] has quit ["leaving"] 13:26 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 13:28 -!- Metaphorically [n=chatzill@206-248-157-156.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:28 -!- Alkavan_ [n=alkavan@87.68.247.236.adsl.012.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:29 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:29 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p578ED03B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:30 -!- akheron [n=akheron@lilja.asteriski.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:32 < taruti> hmm, 6g does not ship mk? 13:33 < uriel> taruti: ? 13:33 < uriel> if you are asking if Go uses mk, the answer is not 13:33 < taruti> uriel: is there a reason? 13:33 < uriel> ask russ and co. 13:34 < uriel> i'd love if they had used mk, but I gues Makefiles work already, and introducing an extra dependency was not worth the trouble 13:34 < taruti> of course I can use gnu makefiles to shoot myself in the foot 13:34 < uriel> well, building Go code is a bit simpler than building C, so.. 13:34 < taruti> had to touch c++ and now Go seems very inviting for a change :) 13:35 < uriel> also I wouldn't be surprised if we end up seeing some make replacement for Go take over at some point 13:35 < uriel> taruti: hahaha... no shit :) 13:35 < Ycros> someone in here was writing a build system 13:35 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@194.182.65-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35 < Ycros> it's up on github. somewhere. 13:36 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 13:37 < uriel> there are a couple, but I expect it will be some time before something takes over as the standard build tool 13:37 < uriel> (hell, we might be writing Makefiles forty years from now... it sure beats auto*hell) 13:40 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42 -!- pvandusen [n=pdusen@crob4-55.flint.umich.edu] has joined #go-nuts 13:43 -!- nutate [n=rseymour@210-172-31-213.cust.bit-drive.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 13:44 -!- JSharpe [n=Jamie@5ad1d7cf.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:45 -!- scm_ [i=justme@c132243.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 13:45 -!- nutate 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joined #go-nuts 14:09 -!- stalled_ [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 14:11 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 14:16 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit ["peace in teh middle east"] 14:18 -!- Guest81298 [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-60-82-254-239-192.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:18 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-60-82-254-239-192.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:19 -!- gnibbler_ [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 14:22 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:24 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26 -!- BleSS [n=quassel@87.223.179.242] has joined #go-nuts 14:27 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27 < BleSS> is possible to build/use named pipes or unix domain sockets? 14:28 -!- ziyu4huang [n=ziyu_hua@220-133-3-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 14:28 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 14:28 -!- DerHorst [n=Horst@e176102010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:29 -!- gnibbler_ [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31 -!- tor7 [n=tor@c-987a71d5.04-50-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 14:38 < rog> BleSS: good question. try grepping the source for "socket" 14:45 -!- iant [n=iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46 -!- Xera^ [n=lol@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 14:46 -!- nanooo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 -!- toothrot [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 < klimek> I'm currently playing around with integrating go into cmake 14:48 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: drhodes, fhs, Guest41779, frimend, deufrai_, nanoo, ac, bengl, dagle2, cmarcelo, (+16 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 14:48 -!- irc [n=irc@209.17.191.58] has joined #go-nuts 14:49 -!- Netsplit over, joins: oal 14:49 < BleSS> rog: there is support for unix domain sockets, in net module 14:50 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 < klimek> is there anybody working on some unittesting support (like expect) to get standard output without having to write lots of duplicate code? 14:50 -!- frimend [i=c03kcn@salt.cs.umu.se] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- cyt [n=cyt@li57-21.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- bockmabe [n=B@miles.jfet.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- gl [n=gl@coders.fr] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- ac [i=foobar@174-21-101-232.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- bengl [n=benglish@oasis.nexus.carleton.ca] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- jlouis 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15:03 -!- codemac [n=codemac@cpe-076-182-083-019.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:04 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [No route to host] 15:04 -!- BleSS [n=quassel@87.223.179.242] has left #go-nuts ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."] 15:05 -!- deufrai_ [n=deu@www.wardsback.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:06 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-124-22-4.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:08 -!- iant [n=iant@67.218.106.188] has joined #go-nuts 15:08 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 15:08 < fission6> where can i find simple examples of Go programs, specifically how to make a small webserver 15:08 < rog> BleSS: cool 15:10 < dho> does flag support multiple flags with the same name? 15:10 < JBeshir> fission6: Try the built-in one. 15:10 < JBeshir> The one in the standard library. 15:10 < fission6> there is an example, is that what your saying 15:11 -!- facemelter [n=facemelt@87.61.163.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11 < dho> hm, no it doesn't. 15:12 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 15:15 < fission6> JBeshir: ? 15:15 < uriel> rog: yes, I thought it was a great idea! 15:15 < JBeshir> fission6: The standard library includes a HTTPD 15:16 < rog> uriel: have you tried it? 15:16 < uriel> was going to add it to http://go-lang.cat-v.org but given that its on its way to the distribution didnt bother 15:16 < fission6> right but is there a server example, i know there is http...maybe you are saying something different 15:16 < rog> uriel: it needs testing! 15:16 < uriel> not yet, I'm busy with other stuff and kind of waiting for the semicolon storm to pass 15:16 < rog> uriel: i dunno if they'll accept it 15:16 < uriel> (we have a real snow storm here, and have much snow to shovel around) 15:16 < uriel> I hope so, seems like a nice addition 15:17 < rog> uriel: but it's really great being able to just click on any name anywhere in the source and to be taken to its definition 15:17 < rog> particularly if it's buried three unnamed structures deep! 15:17 < uriel> rog: didn't look closely, but I guess it uses plumbable output, right? 15:18 -!- [Pete_27] [n=noname@115.64.1.61] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18 -!- [Pete_27] [n=noname@115.64.1.61] has joined #go-nuts 15:18 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:18 < rog> yup - there's an rc script that means you can just click on a name, middle click "def" and it'll print or plumb the result 15:18 < uriel> awesome 15:20 < rog> it takes stdin too, so it'll work on your current (edited) version of a source file (as long as it can be parsed) 15:21 < fission6> fission6: The standard library includes a HTTPD what do you mean by this are you referring to import http? 15:21 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:21 < rog> uriel: the clean type system has been a joy to work with. 15:22 -!- pvanduse [n=pdusen@crob4-55.flint.umich.edu] has joined #go-nuts 15:22 < rog> uriel: not to mention full closures - i chose to write it in "lazy" style, which makes it quite efficient & easy to write. 15:22 < rog> (it only translates the types that it needs to) 15:23 < uriel> very nice (sorry, a bit busy at the moment, but really looking forward to start using it once I have a proper dev environment setup) 15:26 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Null_, evilhackerdude, Solver_, Innominate, drhodes, Xera^, jamuraa, hstimer, codemac, rndbot, (+218 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 15:28 -!- Netsplit over, joins: soul9, mycroftiv, Robdgreat, yiyus, itorres, stalled_, mpl, ivan`, tsung, bthomson (+218 more) 15:28 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 15:29 -!- chachan [n=chachan@150.187.40.27] has joined #go-nuts 15:29 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: u4ia, pvanduse, Fringehead, Daminvar, RooTer, toft, DerHorst, ssb, monteslu_, dho, (+40 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 15:29 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29 -!- xerox 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[n=XniX23@89-212-10-29.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:49 -!- Daminvar [i=81151499@gateway/web/freenode/x-qauodiefkasgzirp] has joined #go-nuts 15:50 < fission6> i am looking for a link someone dropped in here last night to some Google Go code for controller.go package, anyone have the link from the scrollback 15:50 -!- oddman [i=7559a857@gateway/web/freenode/x-cqauikktazmmheru] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:50 -!- xerox [n=xerox@151.61.161.138] has joined #go-nuts 15:51 < rog> oops. acme address # offset != file offset! 15:52 -!- pvandusen [n=pdusen@crob4-55.flint.umich.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:52 < uriel> fission6: probably it is somewhere in go-lang.cat-v.org/go-code ;) 15:52 < fission6> thanks 15:52 < kimelto> morning! 15:55 < fission6> ah i see i found it in the irc logs 15:55 -!- fredmorcos [n=fred@193.170.135.107] has joined #go-nuts 15:55 -!- fredmorcos [n=fred@193.170.135.107] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56 -!- smooge [n=smooge@12.51.54.238] 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joined #go-nuts 16:47 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@lain.dhcp.uni-bielefeld.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:50 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 16:52 < rog> klimek: yes. but that's usually no hassle. 16:53 < rog> there's no runtime overhead, i believe 16:54 < rog> it's the same for pointer types - you have to wrap 'em in a struct if you want to give 'em methods 16:54 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@cpe-67-9-131-167.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:54 < klimek> rog: oh, it was more for the sake of being able to use paranthesis for construction 16:55 < klimek> I'd like to add a little more unit testing support, but it looks like this would be really hard 16:55 < rog> klimek: if you care, define a constructor function 16:55 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@lain.dhcp.uni-bielefeld.de] has quit [] 16:55 < klimek> rog: thought of that, too 16:55 < rog> what's your difficulty? 16:56 < klimek> if I write something like expect(1, Equals{2}, t) I cannot get the line number and the actual expression from within the method 16:56 < klimek> which is what I usually duplicate when writing those "checks" manually 16:57 -!- Ortzman [n=ortzinat@cpe-065-191-006-129.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:57 < rog> i don't think you can get the actual expression 16:58 < rog> but you can get the line number 16:58 < klimek> oh, how? 16:58 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has quit [] 16:58 < klimek> looked through the packages, but couldn't find anything 16:58 -!- itorres_ [n=itorres@gandi.bedynamic.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:58 < rog> http://golang.org/pkg/runtime/#Caller 16:59 -!- e1f` [n=user@141.117.1.155] has joined #go-nuts 16:59 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: wm_eddie, Adys, DJCapelis, zz, mpurcell|sleep, bthomson, jdp, msw, jlouis, afurlan, (+34 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 17:00 < klimek> rog: cool, is there already a stack trace method already? 17:00 < klimek> (that just gives the whole stack as nicely formatted string) 17:01 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.137.254] has quit [] 17:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: zz, gl 17:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Robdgreat 17:01 -!- DJCapelis [n=djc@capelis.dj] has joined #go-nuts 17:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: jlouis 17:01 -!- whiteley [n=bart@nat/novell/x-axbexokztczdjsvg] has joined #go-nuts 17:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: djm 17:01 -!- Netsplit over, joins: clip9 17:01 -!- DJCapelis [n=djc@blender/coder/DJCapelis] has quit [Client Quit] 17:02 < rog> klimek: i dunno. Caller is the only thing i've heard about. 17:02 -!- Netsplit over, joins: KirkMcDonald, roto 17:02 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Wi11 17:02 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03 -!- Netsplit over, joins: ni| 17:03 -!- DJCapelis [n=djc@capelis.dj] has joined #go-nuts 17:03 -!- Netsplit over, joins: h4xOr 17:03 -!- Netsplit over, joins: erikd 17:04 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Null_ 17:04 < dho> How do I print the contents of a bytes.Buffer? 17:05 -!- Netsplit over, joins: mpl 17:05 < rog> print(buf.Bytes()) 17:05 < dho> thank you 17:05 < rog> or, probably print(buf) 17:06 < dho> no, that doesn't work. 17:06 < rog> no you're righ 17:06 -!- Wiz126 [n=Wiz126@24.115.240.60.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:06 < rog> t 17:06 -!- Netsplit over, joins: mertimor 17:06 < rog> it should probably implement String() 17:06 -!- whiteley [n=bart@nat/novell/x-axbexokztczdjsvg] has quit [Killed by douglas.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 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[n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 17:08 -!- wm_eddie [n=wm_eddie@kanna.wm-eddie.info] has joined #go-nuts 17:09 -!- jepler_ [n=jepler@emc/developer/pdpc.active.jepler] has joined #go-nuts 17:09 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:11 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 17:12 < rog> anyone here use p9p acme to edit go? 17:12 -!- ct [n=ct@64.62.190.146] has joined #go-nuts 17:13 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: u4ia, pvanduse, Fringehead, DJCapelis, Daminvar, RooTer, toft, ssb, monteslu_, DerHorst, (+41 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 17:13 -!- chachan [n=chachan@150.187.40.27] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2009/06/06 11:44:47 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 17:14 -!- c0nfl|ct [n=tiago@83.240.182.109] has quit ["Saindo"] 17:14 -!- garbeam [n=arg@garbe.us] has joined #go-nuts 17:15 -!- whiteley [n=bart@nat/novell/x-ktffdvbbeldiirzz] has joined #go-nuts 17:16 < tor7> rog: I use acme to edit almost everything, including go, unless it's on a remote machine 17:16 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has quit [] 17:16 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:16 -!- Ortzinator [n=ortzinat@unaffiliated/ortzinator] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:17 < rog> tor7: do you want to try out my new godef tool? 17:17 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: Associ8or, mpurcell|sleep, msw, bthomson, afurlan, ztzg, ct, jessta_, Amaranth, sahazel, (+10 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 17:17 < rog> tor7: it's great for browsing the source tree... 17:17 < tor7> the ctags like thing? sure. 17:17 < rog> tor7: but it needs more testing! 17:18 < rog> tor7: it's a lot more than ctags 17:18 -!- scriptdevil [n=scriptde@122.174.84.219] has joined #go-nuts 17:18 < tor7> rog: is it acme specific or will it work with, say, wily and vi as well? 17:19 < rog> the only thing acme specific about it is a shell script that comes with it 17:20 < rog> (which looks at the selection in the current window and invokes godef with that) 17:20 < rog> currently it just prints the file & line number, but it could plumb it 17:20 < rog> it' 17:20 < rog> oops 17:21 < rog> it's quite useful that it prints it when browsing a lot because it makes it easy to go back to where you were before 17:21 < tor7> file:line sounds good to me, I'm used to tags :) 17:21 < tor7> and grep -n, or ack (horrible perl, but handy tool) 17:21 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 17:21 -!- jessta [n=jessta@64.62.231.205] has joined #go-nuts 17:21 -!- Associ8or [n=Associat@62.194.163.153] has joined #go-nuts 17:21 -!- msw [n=msw@66.192.95.199] has joined #go-nuts 17:21 -!- tomestla [n=tom@AToulouse-151-1-36-84.w83-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined 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#go-nuts 17:22 -!- mikejs [n=me@mikej.st] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- JoLeClodo [n=JoLeClod@vian.wallinfire.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- antarus|wtf [n=antarus@gentoo/developer/antarus] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- laprice [n=larry@fremont.zoneverte.org] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- freespace [i=foobar@85.203.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- monteslu_ [n=monteslu@ip68-109-171-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- blabla [n=asd@serv4u.pl] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- reppie [i=refugee@elvis.mu.org] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- u4ia [n=weechat@quepasa.solcon.nl] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- luca__ [n=luca@host29.190-230-2.telecom.net.ar] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- jiing [n=jiing@59-120-12-62.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- ssb [n=ssb@213.167.39.150] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 < taruti> Is there a reason crypto/tls uses TLS_RSA_WITH_RC4_128_SHA and does not support something like TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA ? 17:22 -!- ejb [n=ejb@67.244.255.31] has joined #go-nuts 17:25 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:25 -!- ct [n=ct@fsf/member/ct] has joined #go-nuts 17:25 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:26 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 17:26 -!- ___ed [i=bitch@anal-co.it] has joined #go-nuts 17:26 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:26 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has joined #go-nuts 17:27 < fission6> if i have a method, how do i have it interface 17:28 < fission6> do i just call it the same as something that already exists? 17:29 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 17:29 < rog> fission6: can you rephrase that? 17:29 < fission6> yea i am confused about interfaces and how i specify what i am interfacing with in a methods signature 17:30 < rog> if a type implements some methods, then it's compatible with any interface type that requires the same methods with the same types 17:31 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: tomestla, msw, Associat0r, JSharpe, Amaranth, droid001, Rint_, afurlan, KragenSitaker, bthomson, (+10 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 17:32 < fission6> can interfaces only be declared on types 17:32 -!- tav [n=tav@78.145.25.137] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:32 -!- ___ed [i=bitch@anal-co.it] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:33 -!- jessta [n=jessta@li7-205.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:37 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38 -!- Rint_ [i=john@static-71-244-60-125.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:39 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit [] 17:39 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 17:40 -!- scriptdevil [n=scriptde@122.174.84.219] has quit ["leaving"] 17:40 -!- Netsplit 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path[l], RooTer, toft, jdp, ssb, (+47 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 18:30 < taruti> The faq mentions protocol buffers, but I cannot find the implementation. Where is it? 18:30 -!- Netsplit over, joins: soul9, rrr, nathanielk, skerner, roto, stesla, vhost-, xid, L29Ah, dizm (+12 more) 18:30 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 18:31 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:31 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: toothrot, harja, slashus2, Paradox924X, Zarutian, m-takagi, drry, Venom_X 18:31 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:32 -!- Netsplit over, joins: slashus2, harja, m-takagi, Venom_X, Zarutian, toothrot, Paradox924X, drry 18:34 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 18:34 < skelterjohn> I think that there should be a go compiler for the ps3 cell processor 18:34 < skelterjohn> they're always talking about how hard it is for them to program to the ps3's capability... 18:34 < skelterjohn> comes from using posix threads i'm sure 18:35 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:36 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- mat_ [n=mat@mx3.absolight.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- jophish [n=jophish@hermi.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- path[l] [n=path@115.240.123.78] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- frimend [i=c03kcn@salt.cs.umu.se] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- jdp [n=justin@ool-435238c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- tomestla [n=tom@AToulouse-151-1-36-84.w83-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@97-114-228-252.sxcy.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p578ED03B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- erikd [n=aphistic@otome.novustorm.com] has joined 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[n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:43 < ukl> hello. I'm trying the following when writing an insert() function for a simple binary tree structure: http://gopaste.org/view/o1PDN the problem is, while the Println statement inside the function spits out what I expect, the pointer that was the "caller" hasn't changed afterwards 18:43 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: crakrjak, soul9, dizm, tgall_foo, L29Ah, vincent_, Altercation, philips, xid, cablehead, (+12 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 18:43 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@adsl-99-33-25-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45 -!- aho [n=nya@e179052065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 18:46 < taruti> ukl: do you know C? (just to make explaining easier?) 18:46 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: u4ia, pvanduse, Fringehead, DJCapelis, path[l], RooTer, toft, jdp, ssb, monteslu_, (+46 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 18:47 < ukl> taruti: it's been a while but it should be sufficient 18:47 < taruti> ukl: think of a C routine void insert(tree *ptr) { ptr = foobar; } 18:48 < ukl> yes 18:48 < taruti> the ptr is passed by value and thus the ptr is modified but the ptr-value in the calling code is not modified. 18:48 -!- vincent [n=vincent@li89-236.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:49 < ukl> but isn't the pointer-value the point where it points to? oh, I see 18:49 < ukl> but still I can't think up the solution 18:51 -!- mat_ [n=mat@mx3.absolight.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- jophish [n=jophish@hermi.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- path[l] [n=path@115.240.123.78] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined 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joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- antarus|wtf [n=antarus@gentoo/developer/antarus] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- laprice [n=larry@fremont.zoneverte.org] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- freespace [i=foobar@85.203.232.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- monteslu_ [n=monteslu@ip68-109-171-127.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- blabla [n=asd@serv4u.pl] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- reppie [i=refugee@elvis.mu.org] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- u4ia [n=weechat@quepasa.solcon.nl] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- luca__ [n=luca@host29.190-230-2.telecom.net.ar] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- jiing [n=jiing@59-120-12-62.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- ssb [n=ssb@213.167.39.150] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- djanderson [n=dja@hltncable.pioneerbroadband.net] has left #go-nuts ["Ex-Chat"] 18:51 < taruti> ukl: type BinTree *BinTreeNode; type BinTreeNode struct { ... }; func (*binTree) insert(c string, f int) { ... } 18:51 < taruti> or somesuch 18:52 < ukl> taruti: oh... ok, separating types 18:53 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:54 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- roto [n=roto@64.79.202.154] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- L29Ah [n=L29Ah@jabber.spbu.ru] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- dizm [n=dizm@121.98.168.127] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- cablehead [n=Adium@nat/slide/x-vgrcyqskhorohjwt] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- fission6 [n=zach@nyc01.limewire.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- lstoll [n=lstoll@randall.lstoll.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- crakrjak [n=merc@rrcs-70-62-156-154.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- tokuhiro0 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- soul9 [n=none@unaffiliated/johnnybuoy] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- tomaw_ [i=tomaw@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- 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nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 19:32 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 19:33 -!- Guest64995 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 19:33 -!- chachan [n=chachan@ccscliente156.ifxnetworks.net.ve] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33 -!- chachan [n=chachan@ccscliente156.ifxnetworks.net.ve] has joined #go-nuts 19:33 -!- poul [n=pool@ip98-182-40-121.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34 < ukl> taruti: I tried what you suggested but ended up with "invalid receiver type *binTree"... using "func (t binTree) insert..." yields the same error... strange 19:36 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: chickamade, u4ia, pvanduse, Fringehead, DJCapelis, path[l], RooTer, jdp, toft, monteslu_, (+45 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 19:36 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 19:38 < taruti> ukl: s/binTree/BinTree/ 19:38 < ukl> taruti: I used binTree everywhere... does that matter? 19:38 < ukl> It's consistent 19:38 < taruti> then not if you used that consistently 19:38 < taruti> do you have the source somewhere? 19:39 < ukl> one second 19:39 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.65.210] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- Intelliware [n=danielb@124-197-59-227.callplus.net.nz] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- mat_ [n=mat@mx3.absolight.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- jophish [n=jophish@hermi.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- path[l] [n=path@115.240.123.78] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- frimend [i=c03kcn@salt.cs.umu.se] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- jdp [n=justin@ool-435238c0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@97-114-228-252.sxcy.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- mertimor 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[i=refugee@elvis.mu.org] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- u4ia [n=weechat@quepasa.solcon.nl] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- luca__ [n=luca@host29.190-230-2.telecom.net.ar] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- jiing [n=jiing@59-120-12-62.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:39 -!- ssb [n=ssb@213.167.39.150] has joined #go-nuts 19:40 -!- fgb [n=fgb@190.246.85.45] has joined #go-nuts 19:40 -!- mat_ [n=mat@mx3.absolight.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40 -!- mat_ [n=mat@mx3.absolight.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:41 < ukl> http://gopaste.org/view/q032a contains kind of a mess right now, tho 19:43 -!- poul [n=pool@ip98-182-40-121.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:43 -!- ikkebr [n=ikkibr@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has quit [Success] 19:44 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:44 < tor7> t := new(binTree) is wrong 19:44 -!- rog [n=rog@78.147.220.142] has quit [] 19:45 < tor7> that's the same as new(*binTreeNode). which means your t is of the type **binTreeNode 19:45 -!- stalled_ [n=411@95-25-138-246.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #go-nuts 19:45 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has quit [] 19:45 < ukl> hmm ok 19:46 < tor7> don't try to hide pointers by abusing the type declarations :) 19:46 < ukl> I didn't mean to, really... I just had this whatever-by-value problem some 30 minutes ago 19:47 -!- rog [n=rog@78.147.220.142] has joined #go-nuts 19:47 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 19:50 -!- poul [n=pool@ip98-182-40-121.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51 -!- path[l] [n=path@115.240.123.78] has quit [] 19:54 < ukl> tor7: http://gopaste.org/view/N6Ys0 here's a minimal example of what I hoped would work; I didn't succeed at fixing it so far 19:54 < ukl> it compiles just fine, a call to insert() just doesn't change anything 19:55 < ukl> taruti suggested that I mixed up something with pointers and their values, what is probably right, but I don't seem to be able to fix it 19:55 < tor7> yeah, you're modifying t (the receiver) in insert 19:55 < tor7> but that's just changing what the pointer points to, locally 19:55 < ukl> what's the proper way? 19:55 < ukl> like, t = insert(t, ..) ? 19:56 < ukl> (given a modified func of course) 19:56 < tor7> ukl: give me a min 19:56 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:57 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.65.210] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:58 < ShadowIce> uhm, question here....will t == nil (line 21) ever be true? Is that possible? 19:59 < tor7> ukl: http://gopaste.org/view/05PGU something like that should work 20:01 < tor7> ukl: the receiver is just like any other argument once inside the function body 20:02 < ukl> tor7: thanks a lot 20:03 < ukl> taruti: thanks a lot to you, too :) 20:03 < ukl> got to go... bye 20:03 -!- ukl [n=ukl@f053122049.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["..."] 20:04 -!- pvanduse [n=pdusen@crob4-55.flint.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04 -!- Demp [i=sbnc@13.f.cali.vgames.co.il] has quit [K-lined] 20:04 -!- Eridius [n=kevin@growl/Eridius] has joined #go-nuts 20:04 -!- Eridius_ [n=kevin@growl/Eridius] has joined #go-nuts 20:04 < Eridius_> nick Eridius 20:05 < Eridius_> ack 20:05 -!- eulenspiegel [n=irssi@p579CA908.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:05 -!- Eridius [n=kevin@growl/Eridius] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:05 < Eridius> Does the "exp" group of packages mean "experimental"? 20:05 < JBeshir> I think so. 20:05 < tor7> Eridius: yes 20:06 < Eridius> hrm. I need to iterate a vector, and there's a neat exp/iterable package, but I don't want to use experimental stuff. I guess I can just use for foo := range vector.Iter() 20:07 * Eridius was thinking last night about how to iterate arbitrary stuff, decided a function Iter() <-chan interface{}; seemed like a good way to do it, was quite happy to see that, in fact, that _is_ the right way 20:07 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 20:07 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: iwikiwi, Zarutian, werdan7, Paradox924X, toothrot, drry, harja, m-takagi, Venom_X, gnibbler 20:08 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08 -!- Netsplit over, joins: gnibbler, werdan7, harja, m-takagi, Venom_X, Zarutian, toothrot, Paradox924X, drry 20:09 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:09 -!- Demp_f [i=sbnc@213.8.254.236] has joined #go-nuts 20:09 < skelterjohn> Eridius: that seems to be becoming the idiomatic way to do it, though at the moment GC makes that impractical if done a lot 20:09 < Eridius> oh? why is that? 20:10 < skelterjohn> Vector.Iter(), for instance, will spawn a goroutine that dumps things into the channel 20:10 * Eridius could also use vector.Do, but likes the chan idea 20:10 < Eridius> well yes, that's what I would assume 20:10 < skelterjohn> if, before it is done, that channel is forgotten, then that goroutine is just sitting there 20:10 < skelterjohn> blocking forever 20:10 -!- andrzejsliwa [n=andrzej_@host-89-228-151-138.gorzow.mm.pl] has joined #go-nuts 20:10 < skelterjohn> (for now) 20:10 < Eridius> ah, you mean if I break on it 20:10 < skelterjohn> if you do range v.Iter() and break before the end, yeah 20:10 -!- andrzejsliwa [n=andrzej_@host-89-228-151-138.gorzow.mm.pl] has left #go-nuts [] 20:11 < Eridius> although if I close the channel before my break it should be fine 20:11 < skelterjohn> strictly speaking, you're not supposed to do that 20:11 < skelterjohn> close(ch) is considered a sender functionality 20:11 -!- Demp_f [i=sbnc@213.8.254.236] has quit [K-lined] 20:11 < Eridius> would it hurt anything if I did? 20:11 -!- Robdgreat [i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat] has left #go-nuts [] 20:11 < skelterjohn> "supposed to do that" is a bit of a weasely thing to say though 20:11 < Eridius> hrm, vector.Do() won't allow breaking either 20:11 < skelterjohn> i don't think so, no 20:11 * Eridius wants to iterate over a vector, and break when he's found what he wants to find 20:12 < skelterjohn> there are two ML threads devoted to this - one is on the front page right now (untethered goroutines) the other one, if you search for "close iter" or osmething similar you should find it 20:13 < Eridius> ah right, ML. I should actually pay attention to that 20:13 < tor7> Eridius: for i := 0; i < v.Len(); i++ { n := v.At(i); ... 20:13 < tor7> that will always work ;) 20:14 < Eridius> I suppose, but it just feels ugly 20:14 < Eridius> also, I had another thought last night. Slices make it easy to append to the end without a lot of reallocating (as long as you give sufficient capacity). But they seem absolutely terrible for adding/removing elements from the beginning 20:14 -!- Intelliware [n=danielb@124-197-59-227.callplus.net.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14 < tor7> does your vector need to dynamically grow? if not, consider just using a slice instead. 20:14 < Eridius> which I suppose is probably why vector doesn't have Shift/Unshift 20:14 < JBeshir> Eridius: So take a slice from the middle of the array 20:14 < JBeshir> I think that'll work. 20:14 < Eridius> tor7: I am using a vector to make construction of this object easy 20:15 < Eridius> (the vector is hidden behind an API) 20:15 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:15 < Eridius> JBeshir: well, I'm not using arrays directly, just slices. I figure if I need that I can wrap it in an API that keeps an offset into the slice 20:15 < Eridius> JBeshir: the problem with just using a slice directly, even if it points into the middle of hte array there's no way to say "expand this slice from the front" 20:15 < JBeshir> You can't say -1? 20:15 * JBeshir doesn't know 20:16 -!- ziyu4huang [n=ziyu_hua@220-133-3-82.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:16 < JBeshir> I suspect you might be right, given that it's a single length and capacity 20:16 < Eridius> which also makes me wonder, if I do something like foo := make([]byte, 100000); foo = foo[len(foo)-10:]; will the slice keep the entire backing array rooted even though most of it is now inaccessible? 20:16 < Eridius> hrm, lunchtime 20:16 < JBeshir> Yes, I believe it will. 20:16 < tor7> Eridius: copy(s, s[1:]); s = s[0:len(s)-1]; will chop off the first element and not lose any memory 20:16 < Eridius> that's rather unfortunate 20:16 < Eridius> tor7: yes but it will also copy every element 20:16 * Eridius idles for food 20:17 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18 -!- KillerX [n=anant@nat/mozilla/x-fvyuwahfqwtcapdw] has joined #go-nuts 20:18 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 20:18 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7D710.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:23 -!- tav_ [n=tav@89.243.205.194] has joined #go-nuts 20:27 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.191.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31 < fission6> are types similar to Java Classes in some regard? 20:32 -!- fgb [n=fgb@190.246.85.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32 < skelterjohn> not really 20:32 < tor7> fission6: no. but pointers to structs and interface types are the closest you will get, in different ways. 20:32 < fission6> tor7: i could see t hat 20:32 < skelterjohn> you can pretend you have classes, but it's not the same 20:32 < fission6> agreed 20:32 -!- DerHorst [n=Horst@e176102010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:33 < fission6> so are types the only thing you can declare as interface 20:33 < tor7> pointers to structs act much as classes in java, but no inheritance. 20:33 < tor7> and I don't understand that question at all 20:33 -!- codedread [i=81bc2119@gateway/web/freenode/x-ihyaysmnotyiiswa] has joined #go-nuts 20:34 < fission6> where can the interface keyword be used is it only when declaring types 20:35 < tor7> type Reader interface { ... bunch of methods ... } is how you define an interface. any value that satisfies the interface (i.e. provides the methods) can then be used as if its type is Reader. 20:36 < tor7> fission6: yes, just like the keyword struct. 20:36 < fission6> why would it be a bunch of methods 20:36 < tor7> because that's what an interface is. 20:37 -!- tav [n=tav@78.147.28.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37 < tor7> fission6: http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html 20:37 < taruti> fission6: what are you trying to do? 20:38 < tor7> fission6: sorry, wrong link. http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html is what I meant. 20:38 < fission6> ah this is good, illr eview 20:39 < tor7> fission6: if you don't know C, then Go will not be an easy language to pick up. 20:40 < fission6> no i do, its just that i havent written c/c++ for nearly 8 years 20:40 < fission6> trying to recall a few things 20:40 < fission6> interface is the only thing right now thats not sitting well 20:41 < tor7> the source to the library is out there, it helps a lot to just read through that to see how things work in real code 20:42 < fission6> yea actually i did that for a few libraries 20:42 < tor7> you can think of an interface value as a struct { Type *type; void *value; } in C 20:42 < fission6> and most made sense 20:42 < tor7> where the Type contains the runtime type info, such as a list of the methods 20:43 < tor7> much like vtables in C++ 20:44 < tor7> and an interface type is a way to state which methods are valid for a given object 20:44 < tor7> anyway, the spec states it better than I can :) 20:45 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45 < fission6> the other idea i am currently trying to understand is receivers 20:47 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 20:48 < taruti> they are just extra syntax 20:48 -!- xerox [n=xerox@151.61.161.138] has joined #go-nuts 20:48 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 20:48 < tor7> they're a bit more than that, they're the way to do dynamic dispatch of methods on interface values 20:49 < taruti> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Method_declarations explains it quite nicely 20:49 < tor7> for a statically typed value, they're just convenient syntax sugar though 20:49 < fission6> taruti: thats what i was reading actually right now 20:49 < fission6> which does clear it up 20:50 < fission6> so if i have an interface type do i have to implement the methods i interface, what happens if i dont 20:53 < skelterjohn> if you don't, then the compiler won't let you treat instances of that struct as representatives of that interface 20:53 <+iant> an interface type only has method signatures, you don't define methods on an interface type itself 20:54 -!- msw [n=msw@66.192.95.199] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55 < fission6> whats the point of putting just method signatures, what going on in the background, how does it actually know what to implement 20:57 <+iant> fission6: an interface type is a set of methods 20:57 < fission6> right i see that 20:57 <+iant> you can have a value of interface type 20:57 < fission6> what is that given me for an instance of that type 20:57 < tor7> so that you will know which methods you can call on an interface value 20:57 <+iant> to actually assign something to that variable, you need to assign a value which has methods which meet the interface 21:00 < fission6> so its sort of like a base class, kind off 21:00 < fission6> of* 21:00 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00 < tor7> it's closer to a java interface actually 21:01 < tor7> (since you mentioned java earlier) 21:01 < tor7> it's a promise that the value (or object, or struct) has a given set of methods 21:01 < fission6> ok, thats a good way to look at it 21:02 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 21:02 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:02 < fission6> what do you mean by value, i just want to make sure i am defining value the same way you are 21:02 < tor7> value, the contents of a variable or result of an expression 21:03 < fission6> so not just an instance of a typr 21:03 < fission6> type 21:03 -!- boscop_ [n=unknown@f055197176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:03 < tor7> it's the same, isn't it? 21:04 < tor7> every value has a type 21:04 < fission6> hey thats whta i was checking 21:04 < fission6> ok i think things are much clearer thanks tor7 21:04 < tor7> glad to have helped 21:05 < fission6> oh yea 21:05 < fission6> im sure ill have more questions as i make my way through 21:06 < fission6> also what was the decision to wrap the lower parts of Go around c libs for system calls, rather than create a new system lib? 21:07 -!- rthc_ [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:07 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07 <+iant> just for bootstrapping purposes, really 21:10 -!- msw [n=msw@66.192.95.199] has joined #go-nuts 21:11 < fission6> http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#interface_methods what i dont understand in their examples here is how the type Count knows to implement ServerHTTP 21:12 <+iant> In what sense? I mean, in the simple sense, it clearly knows, because the method is written there in the source code 21:13 < tor7> fission6: it's inferred by the methods it implements. 21:13 < tor7> there is no need to explicitly state that a type implements an interface 21:13 < fission6> oh is all this suppose to be in the same package 21:14 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@129.21.121.159] has joined #go-nuts 21:14 < tor7> no, it has nothing to do with packages 21:15 < fission6> well how does inferre, if i dont say that type Counter struct { Handler; n int; } 21:15 < KirkMcDonald> fission6: It implements the interface by virtue of having the methods defined in the interface. 21:16 < fission6> methods defined in the interface. where is that happening 21:16 -!- boscop [n=unknown@f055058030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16 < KirkMcDonald> fission6: Perhaps I misunderstood the question. 21:16 * KirkMcDonald reads the link more closely. 21:17 -!- Wiz126 [n=Wiz126@24.115.240.60.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17 < KirkMcDonald> fission6: I guess I don't understand the question. 21:17 <+iant> fission6: func (ctr *Counter) ServeHTTP(c *http.Conn, req *http.Request) { 21:17 <+iant> there's the method required by the interface 21:17 <+iant> for the type Counter 21:17 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18 <+iant> any type which implements a method with that name and those parameter types will satisfy the interface 21:18 < fission6> right, but where do you see this portion, "required by the interface for the type Counter" 21:18 <+iant> that does not need to be stated in the program 21:18 < fission6> ok 21:18 < taruti> hmm, googling does not provide any hints for the protocol buffers. 21:18 < KirkMcDonald> fission6: See the bit: type Handler interface { ServeHTTP(*Conn, *Request); } 21:18 < KirkMcDonald> fission6: So there is this interface named Handler. 21:18 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18 < fission6> i hear ya but i dont understand how this doesn't lead to colliding with other methods with the same signatures in idfferent packages, there is no scope to it 21:18 < taruti> maybe it is well-hidden or the mention in the faq is just vaporware 21:19 <+iant> collisions are possible, yes 21:19 <+iant> taruti: unfortunately the answer is none of the above 21:19 < KirkMcDonald> fission6: In practice this is not really a problem. 21:19 <+iant> we're somehow stalled on the protocol compiler release process 21:19 <+iant> the code exists, it just hasn't been pushed out 21:19 <+iant> apparently the protocol compiler developers have some sort of plugin interface or something 21:19 <+iant> and we are supposed to use that 21:19 < fission6> hmmm, i guess the linker merges it all for wherever it sees methods with exact signatures? 21:19 < KirkMcDonald> (I mean, heck, I'm coming to Go from Python, which has the same "problem," but moreso, and it seems to work out alright.) 21:20 <+iant> fission6: the linker is not really involved at this level 21:20 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20 <+iant> fission6: you can't have two methods with the same signature for the same type 21:20 <+iant> you can have two methods with the same signature for different types 21:20 <+iant> those are not merged 21:20 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 21:20 < fission6> ok 21:21 < taruti> iant: yes, but the protoc svn has nothing of the plugin architecture (just vague mentions on the ml), and the go stuff appears to be hidden too. Is there any sort of timetable for this? 21:21 < fission6> func (ctr *Counter) ServeHTTP(c *http.Conn, req *http.Request) { so for this i dont understand how it "knows" that this ServeHTTP is the exact method from the http package 21:21 < taruti> just would like to avoid duplicating work if possible. 21:21 < KirkMcDonald> As I understand it, accessing a method via an interface is done via a vtable when possible, and via reflection otherwise. 21:21 <+iant> taruti: excellent question to which I do not know the answer 21:22 <+iant> taruti: my insight into the protocol compiler open source release process is limited 21:22 <+iant> taruti: and actually I don't know if the plugin interface is written or just designed 21:22 <+iant> maybe we can just release the protocol compiler changes as a patch or something.... 21:22 < taruti> iant: so "probably no go support at least in the next month" :) 21:22 <+danderson> taruti: the best would be to ask this on the protocol buffers mailing list. Kenton (the primary google developer for protocol buffers) is quite responsive and open about roadmaps. 21:22 <+iant> taruti: can you open an issue for this if there isn't one already open? 21:23 <+iant> danderson: good suggestion 21:23 <+iant> fission6: the ServeHTTP method on the Counter type is not the exact method from the http package; it's not in the http package at all 21:23 < taruti> iant: ok, will do. 21:24 <+iant> fission6: but since Counter has a ServeHTTP method, it meets the requirements of http.Handler 21:24 <+iant> any type with a ServeHTTP method with those parameter types would meet the requirements of http.Handler 21:24 <+iant> in java terms, it implements the interface, you just don't have to explicitly say "implements http.Handler" 21:24 < fission6> ok, and than that allows that type to do what... 21:25 <+iant> it means that given a value of type Counter, you can assign that value to a variable of type http.Handler 21:25 < KirkMcDonald> Counter? Or *Counter? 21:25 <+iant> *Counter, yes 21:26 <+iant> thanks 21:27 < fission6> http.Handle("/counter", ctr); 21:27 < fission6> and thats what they are doing here by passing in ctr, correct 21:29 -!- erikw [n=erik@c-67-182-132-65.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:36 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 21:38 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has quit [] 21:40 -!- smcq__ [n=smcq@c-67-164-97-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40 -!- chachan [n=chachan@ccscliente156.ifxnetworks.net.ve] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2009/06/06 11:44:47 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5p139 by [Russ Cox] in go/lib/codereview/ -- codereview: add golang-dev@googlegroups.com 21:46 -!- oal 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[n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 22:21 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has quit ["leaving"] 22:23 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23 -!- ayo [n=nya@e179052065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:24 -!- jophish [n=jophish@hermi.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 22:25 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:28 < Eridius> one would assume the zero value for a string is "", but I can't actually find that defined anywhere 22:28 < KirkMcDonald> Eridius: http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#The_zero_value 22:29 < KirkMcDonald> " Each element of such a value is set to the zero value for its type: false for booleans, 0 for integers, 0.0 for floats, "" for strings, and nil for pointers, functions, interfaces, slices, channels, and maps." 22:30 < Eridius> KirkMcDonald: ah hah, thanks. I looked at other parts of the spec, but missed the explicit "zero value" section at the end 22:30 * Eridius expected zero values to be defined where the types themselves were defined, but apparently not 22:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5p4nL by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc: var x, ok = m[y] 22:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5p4nQ by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc: double-check usage of ... 22:35 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-124-22-4.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:40 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: u4ia, Fringehead, DJCapelis, RooTer, jdp, toft, monteslu_, ssb, dho, atsampson, (+40 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 22:41 -!- tomestla1 [n=tom@AToulouse-151-1-104-8.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 22:41 -!- KillerX [n=anant@nat/mozilla/session] has joined #go-nuts 22:41 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43 -!- tomestla 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Griesemer] in 20 subdirs of go/src/pkg/ -- 1) Change default gofmt default settings for 23:37 -!- adelfino [n=username@201-212-160-19.net.prima.net.ar] has joined #go-nuts 23:37 -!- tokuhiro0 [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1: SIGTERM received; exit"] 23:40 -!- Snert [n=achowe@puff.snert.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]"] 23:41 -!- t2zhu_ [n=quassel@129-97-133-231.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41 < alexsuraci> oo, gofmt switchover. 23:42 < alexsuraci> nice, spaces for alignment too. 23:42 -!- Wiz126 [n=Wiz126@24.115.240.60.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:42 <+iant> apparently we saved 51114 semicolons 23:44 < KirkMcDonald> From what? 23:44 < KirkMcDonald> Certain destruction? 23:45 <+iant> A HORRIBLE FATE 23:45 <+iant> which must be left unspecified to avoid shocking the reader 23:45 < KirkMcDonald> But that's even more shocking! 23:45 < spikebike> just imagine all the unemployed ";"'s 23:46 -!- klimek [n=klimek@port-92-194-88-234.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 23:46 -!- tokuhirom [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 23:47 -!- tokuhirom [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51 -!- crc [n=charlesc@c-68-80-139-0.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5p9ua by [Robert Griesemer] in 14 subdirs of go/src/pkg/ -- 1) Change default gofmt default settings for 23:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5p9uc by [Robert Griesemer] in 14 subdirs of go/ -- 1) Change default gofmt default settings for 23:54 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p578ED03B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:56 -!- sliceofpi [n=sliceofp@c-98-194-205-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:56 -!- cryptix [n=cryptix@p4FDE2565.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:57 -!- tokuhirom [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 23:58 < anticw> looks like the semi-change is done --- Log closed Wed Dec 16 00:00:32 2009