--- Log opened Sat Dec 19 00:00:34 2009
00:00 < dho> it needs to figure out if it can find the import in
GOROOT/src/pkg somewhere if it's not in your tree, and then if it can't, it needs
to figure out if there's somewhere else to find it.
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00:27 < uriel> fluffle: thanks, I added it
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00:30 < fluffle> \o/
00:31 < fluffle> i'm just reformatting the godoc output to markdown so that
people have some docs to read too :)
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01:37 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5t3gx by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
method expressions on concrete types
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02:14 < drhodes> I have a program that inexplicably pauses every ~15 seconds
for 1.563 seconds - just like clockwork.  Is this likely the garbage collector?
if I reduce the buffer size of my channels the pauses are more frequent but
shorter.
02:16 < aho> sounds like gc, yes
02:16 < drhodes> excellent, thank you.
02:16 < aho> ~1.5sec is pretty long tho
02:17 < spikebike> dho: don't allocate
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02:18 < aho> alternatively...  allocate once and reuse .)
02:21 < aho> (this will be less of a problem in the future...  when a more
advanced gc scheme is used)
02:22 < drhodes> yeah, that's what I'm counting on ;) it's kind of a big
program, if pools can be avoided then that's less book keeping
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06:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5tkE7 by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/test/fixedbugs/ -- More evaluation order tests, for global variables and
switch.
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06:15 < anticw> iant: poke
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09:02 < kleinchris> can i make a socket connection with go?
09:05 < kleinchris> i didn't see any socket command;O
09:06 < kleinchris> oh i found
09:06 < kleinchris> nice
09:06 < kleinchris> the language seems to be more flexible and faster than
other...
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10:00 < kleinchris> o,o
10:00 < kleinchris> very strange...
10:00 < kleinchris> classes ^,~
10:05 < kleinchris> it looks easy it is hard.  ^^
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10:15 < kleinchris> how can i convert a int64 in a string?!
10:15 < kleinchris> *into
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10:22 < aninhumer> kleinchris, http://golang.org/pkg/strconv/
10:23 < kleinchris> ty found it already...
10:23 < kleinchris> the documentation is not easy to read ^^
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10:26 < aninhumer> apparently for net timeouts "Setting nsec == 0 (the
default) disables the deadline." means "Fails immediately" rather than "Waits
forever"
10:27 < aninhumer> Which is what I would have assumed a timeout of 0 did if
I hadn't read that...  :P
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10:32 < kleinchris>
http://golang.org/src/pkg/strings/strings.go?h=explode#L15
10:32 < kleinchris> bench.go:10: cannot refer to strings.explode
10:32 < kleinchris> bench.go:10: undefined: strings.explode
10:32 < kleinchris> o,O
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10:34 < aninhumer> kleinchris, it's an internal method, you can't call it
10:34 < kleinchris> hm?
10:34 < kleinchris> and how can i explode strings?
10:35 < aninhumer> hmm, just looking now, genSplit() can return explode(),
and Split can return genSplit(), so I'd look at that
10:36 < aninhumer> kleinchris, ^
10:36 < kleinchris> Split ;O
10:37 < kleinchris> and how can i make a "normal" class?
10:37 < aninhumer> How do you mean?
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10:40 < kleinchris> like
10:41 < kleinchris> class undefined { int hello() { printf("hello"); } }
10:43 < aninhumer> kleinchris, I think you can't, I know they don't have
something called "Generic classes", which I believe is what that is?
10:44 < kleinchris> hm ;(
10:44 < kleinchris> i don't understand the things with interfaces
10:46 < aninhumer> I think it's a nice idea, but then I'm coming from
dynamic typed languages :P
10:49 < aninhumer> Hmm, I'm trying to use ReadFromUDP, but it doesn't seem
to be writing anything into the buffer I pass
10:50 < kleinchris> ;O
10:56 < kleinchris> golang is quiete nice, but in my university i learn c /
java...
10:56 < kleinchris> so its not easy...  ^^
10:56 < kleinchris> and on my own i program in php / python / ruby...
10:57 < kleinchris> too many languages at the same time
10:57 < aninhumer> I only really know Python, I'm trying to learn Go to get
used to lower level stuff
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11:06 < kleinchris> hm i will learn it too...
11:07 < kleinchris> it's much better than other languages for web
development
11:08 < aninhumer> I'm using ReadFromUDP, it appears to be receiving my
packets fine, as it return the right length, but the buffer is empty if I print it
immediately after the read
11:09 < kleinchris> ;o
11:09 < kleinchris> hm would be nice if it runs on my atmel µC....
11:09 < aninhumer> I thought it was a pointer misunderstanding, but I'm not
even clearing the buffer now and it still doesn't have anything in
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12:01 < aninhumer> Hmm, my UDPConn actually seems to be ignoring its timeout
12:01 < aninhumer> I assume "resource temporarily unavailable" means a
timeout?
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12:10 < aninhumer> I'm using SetReadTimeout() immediately before a
ReadFromUDP() call, but it is returning immediately with a timeout error?
12:14 < aninhumer> Is there anything else that can produce os.EAGAIN?
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13:21 < fluffle> um, am i going crazy or is there no 'power-of' operator?
13:21 < fluffle> is it in math instead?
13:21 < fluffle> aha.
13:21 < exDM69> in most languages its the pow function or math.pow
13:22 < fluffle> i might just write 1000000000 instead of 10**9 then,
especially as math.Pow10 returns float64
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13:39 < kleinchris> :(
13:40 < kleinchris> to hard...
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13:59 < kleinchris> hey
13:59 < kleinchris> i've just created a package
13:59 < kleinchris> http://pastebin.com/m375722d9 <
13:59 -!- bockmabe [n=B@miles.jfet.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to
host)]
13:59 < kleinchris> so now i want to use the function Start() in my main
program, how can i do this?!
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14:01 < jlouis> kleinchris: I haven't done much Go, but why not
Start(starttime string) ?
14:01 < kleinchris> oh that was just a test
14:01 < kleinchris> only func Start() {
14:01 < kleinchris> don't need a method
14:02 < jlouis> then you import util and call util.Start(); but that won't
work?
14:02 < dagle> kleinchris: You can not do this.
14:02 < kleinchris> why not?
14:02 < dagle> You can not bind a function to string.
14:03 < kleinchris> func Start() {
14:03 < kleinchris> stime := strconv.Itoa64(time.Nanoseconds());
14:03 < kleinchris> a := strings.Split(stime, "", 0);
14:03 < kleinchris> t1 := t1(a);
14:03 < kleinchris> t2 := t2(a);
14:03 < kleinchris> starttime = t1 + t2;
14:03 < kleinchris> }
14:03 < jlouis> starttime = t1 + t2; is now dead code
14:03 < jlouis> perhaps even disallowed
14:03 < kleinchris> hm why?!
14:04 < jlouis> oh!
14:04 < jlouis> did not see the global variable
14:04 < kleinchris> ;D
14:04 < kleinchris> but
14:04 < kleinchris> main.go:10: undefined: util.Start
14:04 < kleinchris> main.go:11: undefined: bla
14:04 < kleinchris> import(
14:04 < kleinchris> fmt "fmt";
14:04 < kleinchris> "./util/bench";
14:04 < kleinchris> )
14:04 < kleinchris> func main() {
14:04 < kleinchris> util.Start();
14:04 < kleinchris> fmt.Printf("%v\n", bla);
14:04 < kleinchris> }
14:05 < kleinchris> oh
14:05 < jlouis> you should really be using a pastebin service for that and
present the complete problem with compiler errors
14:05 < kleinchris> yes ^^
14:05 < kleinchris> when i want to call util.Start();
14:05 < kleinchris> he only says undefined: util.Start
14:06 < jlouis> I can't help you, sorry, it is way to compiler specific for
my current Go-fu skill
14:08 < kleinchris> oh lol
14:08 < kleinchris> i found the error...
14:09 < kleinchris> i was in the root directory and typed
14:09 < kleinchris> 6g utils/bench.go
14:09 < kleinchris> and then
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14:09 < kleinchris> 6g main.go
14:09 < kleinchris> so the bench.6 file were in the root dir and not in
utils/
14:09 < kleinchris> -.-'
14:10 < kleinchris> so now i've got a question
14:10 < kleinchris> when i have more files in utils
14:10 < kleinchris> with the header package utils
14:11 < kleinchris> can i import all by import "./utils" or do i need to
import all files with import "./utils/file1" import "./utils/file2"?
14:12 < dagle> the later one.
14:12 < kleinchris> um ;(
14:12 < dagle> Go gives errors if you include stuff you don't use.
14:12 < kleinchris> yes, but if i use all?
14:13 < kleinchris> if i use a lot of functions in file1 and file2?
14:13 < kleinchris> *all
14:14 < dagle> import ( "file1"; "file2"; ) ?
14:15 < kleinchris> yeah but when the project is very big
14:16 < kleinchris> i got a/file1 a/file2 a/file3 a/file4 b/file1 b/file2
b/file3 b/file4
14:16 < kleinchris> so i need to import all the files
14:16 < kleinchris> and can't write import a
14:16 < kleinchris> import b?!
14:16 < dagle> dont think so.  Try?
14:17 < kleinchris> and then...
14:17 < kleinchris> how can i round()?
14:17 < kleinchris> i only read about math.Ceil()
14:17 < kleinchris> but no round or floor
14:18 < jlouis> kleinchris: Ceil is enough to get the two other if my math
memory serves me
14:18 < kleinchris> oh no :(
14:18 < kleinchris> don't wanna think about it...
14:19 < kleinchris> in the university i learnd so much things in math i
don't need...  :( so my head is exploding
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14:22 < kleinchris> next problem
14:23 < kleinchris> argh -.-'
14:23 < dagle> kleinchris: math.Floor is no good?
14:23 < kleinchris> oh
14:23 < kleinchris> didn't see
14:24 < kleinchris> but i've got another problem..  wait pastebin
14:25 < kleinchris> http://pastebin.com/m6b7e54a4
14:25 < kleinchris> str1 + "." str2
14:25 < kleinchris> *+
14:25 < kleinchris> and both str1 and str2 were numbers and then i want to
convert them into float :(
14:26 < kleinchris> ah i'm so headless today
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14:29 < dagle> kleinchris: :P
14:30 < kleinchris> what?  ^^
14:31 < kleinchris> 1261233198.3420 < this is a float ar right?
14:31 < kleinchris> so why can't i write strconv.Atof64(starttime);?
14:32 < kleinchris> and what the fuck means multiple-value?!
14:33 < kleinchris> is "1261233198.3420" this multiple value?!  o.O?
14:34 < dagle> kleinchris: works for me.
14:34 < kleinchris> for me not...
14:34 < dagle> num, _ := strconv.Atof64("1261233198.3420");
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14:35 < jessta> kleinchris: strconv.Atof64() returns a float64 and an
os.Error
14:35 < kleinchris> hm?!
14:36 < jessta> kleinchris: functions in Go can return multiple values
14:36 < kleinchris> what means num", _"?
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14:36 < dagle> kleinchris: save the number in num and discard the error.
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14:36 < kleinchris> strange...^,~
14:37 < jessta> kleinchris: i means "put the first returned value in num and
ignore the second returned value"
14:37 < jessta> that is, the float64 will go in num and the os.Error will be
ignored
14:37 < kleinchris> and how can i save both values?
14:38 < jessta> num,err :=
14:38 < kleinchris> never heard a language that RETURNS multiple values?!
14:40 < dagle> Ok.
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14:43 < jessta> kleinchris: yeah, most don't
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14:44 < jessta> go mostly using it for returning errors
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14:44 < kleinchris> yeah thats nice but when you didn't know...
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14:44 * dagle have made a dither lib and a image2ascii thing.
14:44 < jessta> kleinchris: you should read the tutorial and effective go
14:45 < kleinchris> i read already
14:45 < kleinchris> but it's very difficult to understand
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14:45 < jessta> func Atof64(s string) (f float64, err os.Error)
14:47 < jessta> so it takes a string and returns a float64 and an os.Error,
by convention the os.Error will be nil if the float64 value returned is valid
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14:49 < kleinchris> hm okai
14:52 < fluffle> i'm currently using closed(chan) to work out when to start
shutting down my program
14:53 < fluffle> unfortunately I appear to be running into big problems --
my main loop looks like: for { if closed(ch) {break}; in := <-ch; // do stuff }
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14:53 < fluffle> (there are two or three of them)
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14:54 < fluffle> unfortunately the blocking behaviour of the channel reads
means that I end up waiting at the read line, then the channel is closed elsewhere
and everything seems to hang
14:54 < fluffle> are there better idioms for dealing with this kind of
problem?
14:55 < fluffle> do I need a control channel for each loop and a select {}
to get a cleaner shutdown?
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14:55 < jessta> fluffle: looked at 'range'?
14:56 < jessta> range will iterate over a channel until it is closed
14:57 < fluffle> jessta: oh, that could be a nicer way
14:57 < fluffle> e.g.  for in := range <-ch {
14:57 < fluffle> ?
14:58 < fluffle>
http://github.com/fluffle/goirc/blob/master/irc/connection.go <-- see send()
and recv() there
14:59 * fluffle goes to read about range in more detail
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15:01 < jessta> 09-12-19 22:15 im.bitlbee.org sets -v lordchao
15:02 < jessta> damn it, stupid acme/irssi interface differeneces
15:02 < fluffle> jessta: that looks like a much nicer way of dealing with
things, thanks a lot!
15:02 < jessta> anyway
15:02 < jessta> fluffle: yeah, range is good
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15:03 < dagle> fluffle: There is still (I tink) a racecon in range with
channels.  :/
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15:06 < fluffle> dagle: well i'm hitting similar problems myself anyway, and
iirc the race is when you have multiple readers on a channel and are checking
closed() and calling close() from multiple places
15:06 < fluffle> i think i *should* be ok with the current code
15:07 < dagle> you should have something like, in, open := getIfopen(ch);
15:08 < fluffle> ew
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15:08 < fluffle> point takem though
15:09 < fluffle> i'll go down that route if i have to
15:09 < fluffle> thanks :)
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15:09 < jessta> dagle: it's not a racecon in range, it's really a racecon in
channels with multiple readers
15:09 < jessta> and it think it's actually fixed
15:11 < dagle> jessta: racecon in channels with closed right?
15:11 < jessta> yeah
15:12 < dagle> I wonder if they fixed it with a combined function or how.
15:13 < dagle> As long as range works things work I'm happy.
15:23 < fluffle> connection.go:190: cannot range over <-conn.in (type
*Line)
15:23 < fluffle> that's no use :/
15:23 < fluffle> seems like a bit of an arbitrary restriction too
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15:25 < fluffle> oh
15:25 < fluffle> my bad
15:25 < fluffle> range ch not range <-ch
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15:29 < kleinchris> is there a func like string chr ( int $ascii )?
15:30 -!- nutate [n=rseymour@pae04fd.tokyte00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts
15:31 < fluffle> kleinchris: what?  e.g.  $ascii == "61" -> gives you "a"
15:31 < kleinchris> yes
15:32 < kleinchris> a func where i can go
15:32 < fluffle> i suspect you'll need the magic of strconv
15:32 < kleinchris> like this
15:32 < kleinchris> hm?
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15:33 < kleinchris> in strconv there is no ascii to str func
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15:33 < fluffle> no
15:33 < fluffle> you'll have to build one
15:33 < fluffle> *probably* using strconv.Atoi, and then byte() and string()
15:34 < fluffle> or or perhaps fmt.Sprintf
15:34 < kleinchris> -.-'
15:35 < fluffle> does fmt.Sprintf("%c", ascii) do what you want/
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15:35 < kleinchris> wait
15:37 < kleinchris> no...
15:37 < kleinchris> it prints %c(string=255)
15:38 < fluffle> maybe fmt.Sprintf("%c", strconf.Atoi(ascii)) then
15:38 < fluffle> strconv, sorry
15:39 < kleinchris> oh no
15:39 < kleinchris> it works
15:40 < kleinchris> :D
15:40 < kleinchris> nice, ty
15:41 < fluffle> np :)
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15:43 < kleinchris> oh
15:43 < kleinchris> no
15:43 < kleinchris> i only got ÿÿ
15:43 < kleinchris> -.-'
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15:47 < kleinchris> hm ;O
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15:49 < dagle> Irc-klient in go?
15:49 < fluffle> seems to handle large channels ok now, though it appears I
need to make my flood protection algorithm less naive
15:49 < fluffle> dagle: yes -- http://github.com/fluffle/goirc/
15:50 < kleinchris> omg
15:50 < kleinchris> i'm so headless...
15:50 < kleinchris> i'm write a for and than i used array[0] -.-'
15:56 < kleinchris> is there any good ide for go?
15:56 < kleinchris> i programmed since 5 houres with vim
15:59 < fluffle> i use gvim myself, no problems with that :)
16:01 < jessta> kleinchris: no IDE except for a text editor and a shell
16:01 < kleinchris> hm
16:01 < jessta> there's no point in making an IDE as the language is still
constantly changing
16:01 < kleinchris> i needed to learn a lot..
16:02 < mpl> I think I heard of eclipse on the ML, don't remember exactly
why...
16:03 < kleinchris> data types float64 and byte arrays exists right?
16:05 < fluffle> kleinchris: have you considered looking at the
documentation for these answers?
16:05 < kleinchris> yes...  ^,~
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16:05 < fluffle> those nice guys over at google didn't write a complete
language specification for nothing
16:06 < fluffle> http://localhost:8080/doc/go_spec.html#Numeric_types
16:06 < kleinchris> it's a bad doc
16:06 < fluffle> http://localhost:8080/doc/go_spec.html#Array_types
16:06 < fluffle> no, it really isn't
16:06 < fluffle> the information is all there
16:06 < kleinchris> localhost?!  xD
16:06 < fluffle> oops
16:07 < fluffle> *cough*
16:07 < kleinchris> haha
16:07 < fluffle> i have godoc -http=:8080 running
16:07 < fluffle> ;)
16:07 < mauke> no problem, just edit /etc/hosts to point localhost elsewhere
16:07 < kleinchris> i'm program on my local server with ssh :D
16:07 < fluffle> s#localhost:8080#golang.org#
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16:08 < kleinchris> try
16:08 < kleinchris> shtudown /s /m \\localhost ^^
16:09 < fluffle> kleinchris: localhost here is running debian kthx ;)
16:09 < fluffle> nevertheless, you can find the same documentation on the
internets on golang.org
16:09 < skelterjohn> morning
16:09 < kleinchris> shutdown -h now ? xD
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16:10 < kleinchris> fluffle i know
16:10 < kleinchris> but this is the worst doc i've ever read.
16:10 < kleinchris> django doc is much better ;O
16:10 < kleinchris> or python doc
16:11 < fluffle> kleinchris: i'm sure the google team welcome patches
16:11 < kleinchris> it's structed and easy to read
16:11 < mauke> the python documentation is very confusing
16:11 < fluffle> kleinchris: but the language specification quite clearly
answers your questions about float64 and byte arrays
16:11 < mauke> I'm never sure where to find things, the tutorial, the
language definition, or the class library
16:12 < kleinchris> mauke python is to easy...
16:12 < mauke> kleinchris: no, it isn't
16:12 < kleinchris> easier than go ^^
16:12 < mauke> I doubt that
16:12 < kleinchris> much easier..
16:12 < jessta> mauke: yeah, and sometimes people forgot to document the
type of required parameters
16:12 * mauke tries an experiment
16:13 < kleinchris> < like the websocket implementation with go or the
"server" things
16:13 < kleinchris> runs much better...
16:14 < kleinchris> than any other
16:14 < kleinchris> webapp
16:19 < mauke> does File do any buffering?
16:20 < fluffle> mauke: no, see also bufio ;p
16:21 < mauke> ah, so there's nothing like normal stdout
16:23 < fluffle> mauke: "normal" stdout?
16:23 < mauke> yeah, like what every other language has
16:23 < kleinchris> lol'ed
16:23 < kleinchris> @anal-co.it
16:24 < mauke> buffered output channel; if connected to a terminal, line
buffered; else block buffered
16:25 < fluffle> mauke: it apparently just opens /dev/stdout, so i suspect
there's no TTY checking code
16:25 < mauke> it better not open /dev/stdout when I already have 1 open
16:27 < fluffle> ah, no, it just wraps fd 1 in a File with the name
/dev/stdout, my bad
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18:01 < kimelto> morning!
18:04 < fluffle> almost
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18:09 < skelterjohn> must be a westie
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19:22 < fejes> hello, could someone point me to an example of how to handle
files - eg, EOF markers - in go?
19:22 < fejes> I couldn't find one on the golang.org pages
19:26 < fluffle> what're you trying to accomplish?
19:28 < fejes> basically, just read a file till you hit the EOF mark,
19:28 < fejes> not sure what counts as an EOF mark .
19:30 < fejes> os.EOF?
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19:33 < fluffle> when you try to Read() and you're at EOF, you'll get an
error
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19:34 < fluffle> http://golang.org/pkg/os/#File.Read <-- that tells you
exactly what happens at EOF
19:35 < fluffle> all you have to do is deal with it :)
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20:15 < xuwen> is there seriously no way to associate methods with structs
in go?
20:18 < jessta> xuwen: yes you can have methods on structs
20:18 < jessta> xuwen: read the tutorial and effective go, and watch the
video
20:19 < xuwen> jessta: hm, i thought the tutorial explicitly said that you
couldn't do that
20:19 < jessta> nope
20:20 < jessta> unless your meanings of method and struct and associated is
different from everyone elses
20:21 < kleinchris> the best thing on go is
20:21 < kleinchris> when you start coding
20:21 < kleinchris> you can say
20:21 < kleinchris> "let's go!"
20:21 < jessta> xuwen: func (t *SomeType) SomeMethod()
20:21 -!- xuwen [n=xuwen@pool-138-88-67-42.res.east.verizon.net] has quit []
20:22 < jessta> is a method on pointer to SomeType
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20:23 < xuwen> jessta: thanks
20:23 < jessta> eg.  somevariable := new(SomeType);
somevariable.SomeMethod()
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20:46 < napsy> Hello.  How is recursion supported in go?
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21:26 < fejes> is there a structure like an ArrayList in Go? Where you don't
need to know the number of elements that the list will contain a priori?
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21:27 < fejes> or is that just a map?
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21:31 < dho> yes
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21:32 < jessta> fejes: probably looking for a vector
21:38 < fejes> go has vectors?
21:39 < fejes> which, I suppose is what my question was in first place.
21:39 < dho> there's a containers/vector package you can import.
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21:39 < fejes> thanks!
21:39 < dho> there's also containers/list if you need a doubly linked list
21:40 < fejes> good to know..  I
21:40 < fejes> I hadn't come across the containers stuff yet.
21:41 < dho> http://www.golang.org/pkg/
21:41 < fejes> yes,
21:41 < fejes> however, knowing where to look in that is not always obvious.
21:41 < skelterjohn> when in doubt, scan the pkg list :)
21:42 < fejes> I get the impression this was set up for C++ programmers,
21:42 < dho> i don't do c++.
21:42 < fejes> so when I scan it, I tend not to know what I'm looking for.
21:42 < skelterjohn> what makes it set up for C++ programmers?
21:42 < JBeshir> fejes: It was set up using actual names for thigns
21:42 < fejes> JBeshir: great, thanks - that was incredibly useful!
21:42 < JBeshir> ArrayList is not a data structure, it's the names of two
different data structures glued together
21:43 < fejes> JBeshir: it's a class in Java, which has the properties of a
vector in Go.
21:43 < fejes> hence why this isn't intuitive for me.
21:43 < skelterjohn> well, java has a Vector class, too
21:43 < skelterjohn> which is similar to go's vector
21:44 < fejes> well, as long as I'm using the wrong words to look for
things, it's not helpful to scan a list.
21:44 < fejes> hence why I ask questions.
21:44 < fejes> I appreciate that you're willing to help translate it
21:44 < skelterjohn> it's np
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21:45 < skelterjohn> this irc channel is the right forum for that kind of
thing
21:45 < skelterjohn> (rather than the ML)
21:45 < fejes> that's what I had hoped.  Just being able to ask the
occasional silly question makes a significant dent in the learning curve.
21:45 < dho> skelterjohn: collabing with the guy who did gomake now
21:45 < dho> skelterjohn: we're merging ideas
21:46 < jhh> that'd be me
21:46 < skelterjohn> cool
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21:46 < skelterjohn> should make a wave for it, or something
21:46 < dho> ohai jhh
21:47 * dho didn't even know you were here <_<
21:47 < jhh> wasn't until i read your mail :)
21:47 < jhh> got the impression this might be useful
21:48 < dho> ah, yeah.
21:48 < jhh> is import "hg=url" actually supported?
21:48 * dho has been an irc addict for 15 years
21:48 < dho> no, that's part of the idea behind this.
21:49 < skelterjohn> i wonder if that is something that would go in the .gb
file
21:49 < skelterjohn> rather than the go source
21:49 < dho> skelterjohn: russ doesn't think so
21:49 < skelterjohn> just 'import "pkg"' in the source
21:49 < skelterjohn> and in the .gb file, "download: pkg = hg://..."
21:50 < skelterjohn> but then those kinds of things will *only* be able to
be compiled with your builder
21:50 < jhh> i don't like the thought that go downloads stuff for me
21:50 < jhh> no, that make downloads stuff for me
21:52 < jhh> it's a weird idea, some kind of magic :)
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21:52 < dho> Russ's logic is that it removes the need for a centralized
repository to keep track of what packages are what.
21:52 < dho> If you can tell it where to find what it needs to build, why
not
21:52 < skelterjohn> 1) urls change
21:53 < skelterjohn> 2) it rewrites source, and that is just weird
21:53 < dho> jessta liked the idea :)
21:53 < skelterjohn> suggest my idea to him...just import as normal in the
source, but in the .gb file specify where to get certain packages
21:53 < skelterjohn> that seems a lot cleaner to me
21:54 < dho> Maybe.  The only problem with that is that I don't want to
require you to have a .gb file, and if you do, it is responsible for specifying
everything in your directory hierarchy
21:54 < dho> If it allows implicit compilation to be mixed with having a .gb
file, things start to get really hairy
21:54 < jhh> the .gb file has to have rules to synthesize code anyway
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21:55 < skelterjohn> the .gb file i suggest is much simpler than a makefile
21:55 < skelterjohn> no rules or anything
21:55 < skelterjohn> just some information
21:55 < dho> skelterjohn: It's not sufficient.
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21:55 < skelterjohn> in what way?
21:55 < dho> in the way that it needs to be able to specify dependencies
21:55 < skelterjohn> you can grok that from the source
21:56 < dho> no, not if you have autogenerated source.
21:56 < jhh> after generation?
21:56 < skelterjohn> ?
21:56 < dho> skelterjohn: pkg/runtime and pkg/syscall have autogenerated
sources.
21:56 < skelterjohn> how does that work...
21:57 < dho> take a look :)
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21:57 < skelterjohn> lot of files...could you point to one?
21:57 < jhh> why can't you get dependencies from autogenerated code?
21:57 < dho> jhh: because the autogenerated code doesn't necessarily exist
when you're building.
21:58 < dho> you need to generate that somehow
21:58 < dho> so it either needs to be generated before you build, or you
have to tell the build utility how to generate it.
21:58 < jhh> first generate it and then scan it?
21:58 < jhh> if generation has no dependencies...
21:58 < jhh> hmpf
21:58 < dho> right
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21:58 < dho> it's not simple
21:58 < dho> but, popping up the stack a bit
21:59 < dho> If you require a .gb file to use remote importing then you also
require a user to have a .gb file to build even the simplest of projects if they
want to use that feature.
21:59 < dho> remote imports don't belong in the compiler, because the
compiler shouldn't have to know how to build a package.
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22:00 < skelterjohn> well if remote package downloading becomes commonplace
enough, i suppose you might not want to always have to make a .gb file
22:00 < skelterjohn> what about a comment before the import?
22:00 < skelterjohn> import "pkg" //hg://...
22:01 < dho> it's just more unnecessary verbosity imo
22:01 < skelterjohn> then no source rewriting is necessary
22:01 < dho> also, there's no difference between having import "hg=pkg" and
import "pkg" and having the path in the .gb file
22:01 < skelterjohn> you just have to scan and look for the url
22:01 < dho> as far as building is concerned
22:01 < skelterjohn> one allows you to compile with your own builder
22:01 < skelterjohn> one does not
22:01 < dho> because if you are relying on that feature, you're relying on
the build utility to be able to satisfy it
22:01 < skelterjohn> you could download it yourself
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22:02 < dho> Maybe.
22:02 < skelterjohn> if you have it as part of the import, you're really
just making another compiler
22:02 < skelterjohn> rather than a builder
22:04 < dho> Sure, but having that annotation anywhere in the source file is
extending the meaning of the language to some degree.
22:04 < JBeshir> What is wrong with all these people who're saying that lack
of exceptions makes it impossible to write safe software?
22:04 < skelterjohn> but adding it as a comment is an ignorable extension
22:04 < JBeshir> It's *really really hard* to ignore errors in Go.
22:04 < skelterjohn> you can still download the package, install it locally,
and use 6g
22:05 < JBeshir> You have to explicitly ignore that return value, and it's
very visible.
22:05 < dho> It's a reasonable argument :)
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22:05 < jhh> the import "hg:..." stuff would only work for external imports
anyways, why not put a file somewhere to resolve external dependencies?
22:05 < JBeshir> It's not a reasonable argument to say that without them,
people will 'forget' to do error checks.
22:06 < JBeshir> Because Go doesn't *let* you.
22:06 < dho> jhh: more files is more maintenance; the point is to reduce the
amount of work a developer has to do to build his/her library
22:07 < dho> I'm not sure whether import "hg:bla" or import "bla" //hg:bla
is better now, the latter is a good idea.
22:07 < jhh> dho: but that external dependencies file would declare
downloads once, if a link changes you change it once, not in every .go import
22:08 < dho> jhh: then perhaps it should be supported in .gb as well
22:08 < skelterjohn> so, maybe two ways to specify the sorts of things that
go in the .gb file
22:08 < jhh> yeah, latter is much better
22:08 < dho> but definitely should not force you to have a .gb to use that
functionality
22:08 < skelterjohn> first, in the .gb file
22:08 < dho> JBeshir: because they like to type a lot
22:08 < skelterjohn> second, as a special kind of comment in the .go file
22:08 < dho> JBeshir: and sound smart
22:09 < skelterjohn> putting it after the import statement is a bit clunky
22:09 < skelterjohn> but maybe at the top, "//remote:pkg=url
22:09 < skelterjohn> "
22:09 < skelterjohn> same thing could go in the .gb file, minus the //
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22:09 < dho> no, i don't want to parse every comment in the file :\
22:09 < dho> after the import is easy because you can specifically target
that in the ast
22:10 < skelterjohn> comments before the package declaration?
22:10 < skelterjohn> there are other things you might want to say
22:10 < skelterjohn> like the flags to determine whether a file is compiled
or not
22:10 < dho> that's another sticky issue :)
22:11 < skelterjohn> if a file should only be compiled for amd64, //amd64:
this.go
22:11 < dho> oei.
22:11 < dho> if you have arch-specific stuff, use a .gb
22:11 < skelterjohn> or since the file knows itself, just //flags: amd64
22:11 < skelterjohn> or something
22:11 < dho> I think this should be extensible, but it shouldn't be overly
convenient
22:12 < dho> Anyway
22:12 < skelterjohn> just seems elegant to allow the gb file to be built up
within the source
22:12 < dho> I sent a really verbose email to jhh earlier today
22:12 < dho> Between that and this convo i'll put up a wiki page
22:12 < jhh> dho: yeah, I'm working on the answer
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22:12 < dho> maybe later tonight
22:12 < skelterjohn> make a google wave
22:12 < dho> i gotta jet for a bit
22:12 < dho> ok
22:12 < skelterjohn> nicer than wikis for project collaboration
22:13 * dho bbiab
22:13 < jhh> bye
22:14 < dho> jhh: do you have wave?
22:14 < jhh> yes
22:14 < dho> skelterjohn: what's your address to add?
22:14 < skelterjohn> i pm'd it
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22:33 < dho> sorry, I meant .c and .s
22:35 < jhh> ah okay
22:36 < dho> oh wow, you can reply inside a thread in wave?
22:36 * dho has clearly not used it at all
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22:42 < skelterjohn> yeah - edit the ...  wavelet...ripple?  and do
ctrl-enter
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22:44 < dho> this is pretty cool.
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22:51 < fejes> sorry - another silly question I can't seem to find in the
docs.
22:51 < fejes> is there a keyword required to make functions in one package
available in another, beyond just importing it?
22:52 < fluffle> the functions have to start with a capital letter
22:52 < fejes> ah.
22:52 < dho> e.g.  func foo()
22:52 < dho> is not exported
22:52 < fejes> maybe that's it.
22:52 < dho> func Foo() is
22:52 < fejes> ah.
22:52 < fejes> ok, thanks.
22:52 < dho> same with structs and struct members ;)
22:52 < fejes> much appreciated - again!
22:52 < fluffle> thet's how you differentiate between public and private
package functions/methods/constant
22:53 < fejes> thanks - that was it.
22:53 < fejes> simple capitalization issue.
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23:19 < jhh> dho: what timezones are you in?
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23:21 < dho> GMT-0500
23:22 < dho> skelterjohn is as well
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23:25 < dho> I need to take off for a bit
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23:29 < jhh> I'm going to bed, dho, skelterjohn.  See you!
23:29 < skelterjohn> night
23:33 < fluffle> Gracenotes: http://github.com/fluffle/goirc/
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23:35 < kleinchris> lol.
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23:36 < Gracenotes> fluffle: I see :o
23:36 < Gracenotes> cool system you have there
23:37 < Gracenotes> with modes parsing, actually keeping track of
channel/user state
23:37 < fluffle> Gracenotes: a fair bit of the internal rework i did was
inspired by your go-bot code so i though i should say thanks ;)
23:37 < Gracenotes> a lot more hands-on than mine
23:37 < Gracenotes> :) great
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23:38 < Gracenotes> incidentally, rndbot should be a lot more stable, since
I'm home for winter -- no more ssh connection randomly falling off :/
23:40 < Gracenotes> as far as I can tell, though, it's not needed as much.
Most people aren't beginners, but rather people who have used the language for a
bit and have issues that can't be demonstrated in one-liners
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23:41 < Gracenotes> at least with finals out, I have more time to work on
non-academic things, like Go \o/
23:41 < fluffle> woohoo :D
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23:42 * fluffle has only been able to spend so much time on it due to being
between jobs currently
23:42 < fluffle> nice to have time to sit back and do something for the hell
of it as a learning exercise
23:42 < Gracenotes> mm
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--- Log closed Sun Dec 20 00:00:14 2009