--- Log opened Mon Dec 21 00:00:34 2009
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00:55 < Vova> whats mmap: errno=0x0 error?
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01:23 < Gracenotes> Vova: something to do with not being able to allocate
more space, I believe
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01:26 < Gracenotes> I don't think 0 is an actual mmap errno
01:26 < webbpa> Why did you guys make go so awesome?
01:26 < webbpa> Srsly.
01:27 < jessta> webbpa: I think it was a plan to make people depressed
01:27 < webbpa> How so?
01:28 < webbpa> About their day job you mean?
01:28 < jessta> go is awesome, but your job is very unlikely to let you code
in it
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01:32 < Gracenotes> looks like SysCall hooks into runtime_mmap, which is
#define'd to be runtime·mmap, which is written in assembly
01:34 < Gracenotes> meh.
01:34 < Gracenotes> reminds me I need to learn more about x86 conventions.
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02:43 < zen> Gracenotes: been coding x86 for long?
02:45 < Gracenotes> haven't coded anything.  know MIPS from school, just
this semester, and I'm rather familiar with C. I'm reading some
learn-assembly-with-x86 books, and going through them quickly with prior knowledge
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03:18 < NinoScript> #peanut
03:18 < NinoScript> emm… ups
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05:20 < vigith> Comparing stages 2 and 3
05:20 < vigith> warning: gcc/cc1-checksum.o differs
05:20 < vigith> warning: gcc/cc1plus-checksum.o differs
05:20 < vigith> Bootstrap comparison failure!
05:21 < vigith> has anyone come across this earlier ..  i am not getting any
concrete steps to fix this....
05:21 < vigith> Darwin XXXXXXXXX.yahoo.com 8.11.1 Darwin Kernel Version
8.11.1: Wed Oct 10 18:23:28 PDT 2007; root:xnu-792.25.20~1/RELEASE_I386 i386 i386
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05:39 < Moka> nuts
05:39 < Moka> wow lots of people here
05:39 < Moka> any1 here?
05:40 < Moka> omg...
05:40 < fejes> heh
05:40 < fejes> there are knowledgeable people here too.
05:40 < fejes> I'm just not one of them.
05:40 < Moka> hi
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10:50 < rhatta> Can I set $GOBIN equal to $GOROOT/bin or is this not a good
idea?
10:51 < rhatta> hi
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10:59 < Enselic> rhatta: if you are ok with the installed binary being in
the source tree, it's fine
11:00 < Enselic> rhatta: as long as you have PATH properly setup, of course
11:04 < rhatta> Enselic: hmm, thanks.  I'll just keep my current setup (dirs
are separate).  I'm a n00b and just got curious.
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12:48 < callidus> hello go users, has anyone got an info on possible
GUI/Widget projects using go ?
12:49 < dagle> callidus: The gui api in go is pretty much experimental at
this stage.
12:50 < callidus> thanks dagle, I ask because im interested in developing a
XUL style GUI kit using Go
12:51 < callidus> just trying to see what else is out there before I start
building anything
12:51 < dagle> Oki.
12:52 < dagle> xml is not so loved in general by go developers.
12:52 < callidus> ahh, whats the prefered alternative ? JSON or somthing
else ?
12:52 < dagle> Yeah.  JSON.
12:53 < callidus> right ok, ill look into that.
12:53 < callidus> thanks for the info dagle
12:53 < dagle> But whats wrong with draw?
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12:55 < callidus> well, nothing, i was planning on using it as the rendering
base.  Im interested in a scriptable GUI concept.  I.e.  GUI is not created in Go
or whatever directly but is data driven via parsed files
12:55 < callidus> hence looking at XUL, though i have no particular thing
for XML ;-)
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14:49 < kleinchris> does somebody already developed a mysql or postgresql
package?
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14:56 < kleinchris> hm
14:56 < kleinchris> i think about to develop a mysql package ;o
14:57 < kleinchris> u just can make the connection in a goroutine...  that
would be very nice
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16:30 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wi8Q by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/src/ --
cgo: interpret $CGOPKGDIR as absolute path if rooted
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19:03 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wqZ7 by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/8g/ -- 8g:
add TESTL etc to reg opt
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21:12 < ekidd> Go looks like a very pleasant language, with good concurrency
and an interesting interface system.
21:13 < ekidd> But after watching the introductory video and reading the
tutorial, I'm still not sure about how to gracefully handle errors.
21:14 < ekidd> Do I check the result of every function I call, and pass
errors up the call chain manually?
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21:15 < taruti> yes
21:15 < ekidd> That seems a little dodgy: It would involve lots of boiler
plate, and I notice that Printf calls the writer interface (which returns errors),
but none of the example code ever checks for an error returned by Printf.
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21:15 < ekidd> So either people are lazy about checking error codes, or
something magic is happening in Printf.
21:15 < taruti> what would you like to do if Printf fauked?
21:15 < taruti> *failed
21:16 < taruti> people are ignoring it
21:16 < taruti> since most of the time they don't care
21:17 < ekidd> taruti: Generally?  Terminate the process, kill the socket
connection, assume the file I'm writing is garbage, or something along those
lines.  When Printf fails, it's usually because something is seriously wrong.
21:18 < taruti> or ignore it like most C code does
21:18 < taruti> if the write is critical you check it for errors, if it is
just extra information it can be ignored
21:18 < ekidd> Erlang has a rather interesting approach: Serious errors
usually just kill the current process, and the error propagates to other processes
using links.
21:19 < ekidd> taruti: Well, most C code that I've seen in my career
is--unfortunately--buggy junk.
21:19 < jessta> ekidd: yeah, I'd like to see something similar to erlangs
model in Go
21:19 < jessta> but it's tricky
21:19 < ekidd> Personally, I'm unwilling to silently ignore errors in the
general case.
21:19 < taruti> go-routines lacking identity is a problem for that
21:19 < jessta> because channels aren't message queues
21:20 < ekidd> taruti: Eww, I see what you mean.  They're not first class,
so you can't link to them.
21:20 < jessta> goroutines also don't have a single queues they recieve on,
they can recieive and send on many channels
21:20 < taruti> the erlang approach is nice in erlang
21:21 < taruti> having channels instead of message queues does not make it
impossible
21:21 < jessta> which makes progagating confusing
21:21 < ekidd> I'm certainly not convinced that exceptions are the correct
answer for Go.
21:21 < taruti> simply have: go_linked(function, callback for sending error)
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21:22 < ekidd> But I've spent a non-trivial chunk of my career carefully
checking every error code from every function, and I find that (a) it makes the
code really ugly, and (b) most people will just write buggy code instead.
21:23 < jessta> taruti: erlang terminates linked processes unless they
specifly state they want to handle exit signals
21:23 < ekidd> taruti: You might even be able to do something like:
21:23 < jessta> ekidd: most people will write buggy code no matter what you
do
21:24 < ekidd> go function(arg, output,
link_to_somebody_who_cares_about_failure)
21:24 < jessta> also, channels are unidirectional
21:25 < taruti> ekidd: what would the
link_to_somebody_who_cares_about_failure be?
21:25 < jessta> if a parent goroutine errors out, it might need to tell it's
children about that
21:26 < ekidd> taruti: You would have to pass the failure channel down
through many levels of goroutines.  But anyplace a failure occurred, you could
signal somebody who cared and then just die, and leave all the intermediate
goroutines between somebody_who_cares and somebody_who_failed for the GC/runtime
to clean up.
21:27 < ekidd> jessta: True, and Erlang links offer some reasonable ways to
handle that, IIRC.
21:27 < jessta> also, re-spawning goroutines is very different from
re-spawning in erlang
21:27 < taruti> ekidd: but it needs a function there instead of a channel.
Because with a channel the receiver won't know which of the children died.
21:27 < taruti> so it needs a way to add a tag to the value sent down the
channel
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21:28 < ekidd> Since I'm personally obsessive about checking errors, I
always check one thing when looking at a new language: Do the examples in the
tutorial omit error handling in the name of "clarity" or "simplicity"?
21:30 < ekidd> If correct error-handling code is neither clear nor simple,
then I figure that programming in the language will be a fairly miserable
experience.
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21:30 < taruti> ekidd: error handling and generics are still an open problem
in go.
21:31 < ekidd> taruti: Indeed.  But error handling is really a bit of
blocker for me.  :-( I can live with all the other interesting bits!
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21:33 < taruti> ekidd: wait some months, go is certainly not ready for
production applications yet.
21:33 < jessta> taruti: error handling is fine, exception handling is still
an open problem
21:33 < ekidd> taruti: In my example, I figure that somebody would have to
watch the failure channel and either respawn the computation or log an error when
a failure occurred.  You could easy see something like 'go
respawnner(computation_func, result_channel)', which would set up the failure
channel, pass it to computation_func, and deal with the errors.
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21:34 < ekidd> jessta: It seems like respawning wouldn't be super-difficult
in Go, although you might need to duplicate your respawning code for various
types.
21:36 < taruti> ekidd: think of a supervisor with N (dynamic number)
children.
21:36 < ekidd> taruti: Yeah, the supervisor would probably have to spawn one
wrapper per child, and let the wrappers figure out what to do when a child failed.
21:37 < taruti> ekidd: or simply use a callback function instead of the
channel.
21:38 < taruti> which makes the "many children" case simpler.
21:38 < ekidd> taruti: The advantage of this approach is that the error
channel doesn't need to know anything about child IDs, respawning, or anything
like that: It only needs to know how to report a failure.  I suppose you could
pass a callback, too, if you preferred that approach.
21:39 < taruti> a callback is more powerful
21:39 < taruti> most of the time it would just emit the failure to the error
channel tagged suitable
21:40 < taruti> which omits the need for those wrapper processes
21:40 < ekidd> I was thinking of using Go for an experimental web crawler
and text munger.  Erlang's string processing is fairly weak (and the compiler does
not generate particularly stellar code), and so I'm willing to take some technical
risk on an experimental language.
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21:41 < taruti> erlang + crm114 ;)
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21:42 < ekidd> taruti: Yeah, but it's sort of like exceptions: You either
deal with them near the callsite, or you pass them so far back up the call chain
that the cost of wrapper goroutine had really better not matter very much at all.
So the two solutions are probably pretty much isomorphic.
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21:42 < ekidd> I'm assuming goroutines are supposed to be too cheap to worry
about, for the most part.
21:43 < ekidd> jessta: Is there any work in progress on links, exception
handling, etc.
21:44 < ekidd> I don't mind slightly dodgy compilers, but I don't want to do
a lot of work in Go if I have to wait a long time for the error-handling tools to
fully mature.
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21:53 < WalterMundt> ekidd: perhaps, but be aware that each currently
minimally allocates a few k for a stack
21:53 < WalterMundt> (wrt cheap goroutines)
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21:54 < Skiddie> SUp ^^
21:54 < Skiddie> this is Google GO's programming language IRC channel,
right?
21:54 < WalterMundt> ekidd: there's currently a 52-post thread on the most
recent proposal for exceptions, but most of it is wrangling over whether any of
the existing models are a fit for the language
21:54 < WalterMundt> Skiddie: yeah
21:55 < WalterMundt> ekidd: (on the go-nuts list)
21:55 < ekidd> WalterMundt: I'm pretty agnostic about the model, and would
be fine with pretty much anything that fit the language: exceptions, Erlang-style
links, something clever and new.
21:55 < Skiddie> Nice..
21:56 < WalterMundt> same here, but I really want there to be *something*,
preferably reasonably soon
21:56 < WalterMundt> as in, a way to make the process not die if some bit of
code in a library misbehaves
21:56 < ekidd> WalterMundt: Thanks for the pointer, though!  I'm reading the
thread now.
21:57 < taruti> that is mostly about Java-style exceptions
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21:57 < WalterMundt> so far, I'm siding with the proposal to give goroutines
an "error channel" they use to signal panics, which propagates unless the spawner
of the goroutine asks to handle it
21:57 < ekidd> WalterMundt: The Erlang solution is actually kind of
interesting, because it takes an opposite approach: Die aggressively, but be
careful about propagating.
21:57 < ekidd> Exactly.
21:58 < skelterjohn> maybe the statement "go foo()" should return such a
channel?
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21:58 < skelterjohn> and reserve some keyword to refer to the channel for
the current goroutine
21:58 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: that's the idea, except that if you don't
save it (i.e.  treat the statement as one and not an expression) then the runtime
does some magic to make errors propagate
21:59 < WalterMundt> hmm, that's an idea, and not yet proposed -- perhaps
mention it in the increasingly-derailed aforementioned thread?
21:59 < ekidd> Checking error return code is most objectionable when there's
a big stack in between the error and the recovery code.  And in that case, relying
on goroutines links is perfectly acceptable.
21:59 < WalterMundt> there is also the issue of what happens if an
intermediate goroutine ends
21:59 < taruti> adding an identity to go-routines would make things simpler
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22:00 < WalterMundt> A spawns B spawns C, B exits normally, C panics, nobody
saved an error channel -- what happens?
22:00 < skelterjohn> like you said...if you don't grab C's error channel in
B it gets chained to B's
22:00 < ekidd> WalterMundt: I think A should probably get the error.
22:00 < skelterjohn> which would mean that A gets it
22:00 < WalterMundt> I think so too, but didn't think to put it in my last
post
22:01 < skelterjohn> which means you can catch all in main()
22:01 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: perhaps you could put that in as well,
when you suggest a keyword for referring to the goroutine's own error chan?
22:01 < skelterjohn> haven't got time to catch up with that thread, really
sorry
22:01 < WalterMundt> k
22:01 < skelterjohn> i have an exam in a few hours
22:02 < WalterMundt> if you're interested in the debate, you might want to
drop in after
22:02 < ekidd> WalterMundt: The only drawbacks with this proposal: (a) it
creates a second kind of "invisible" channel, instead of somehow reusing the
existing channel mechanism, and (b) there's no way to add extra error links to
arbitrary peer go-routines (e.g., "if this server goes down, then I'm toast,
too").
22:02 < WalterMundt> I doubt the debate is going to go away in the next day
or three
22:02 < ekidd> WalterMundt: But I think you're in the right ballpark.
22:03 < skelterjohn> ekidd: the channel isn't invisible...it's just
implicit?  And the (b), the parent process would have to relay tha tmessage to the
subprocesses
22:03 < WalterMundt> good point
22:03 < skelterjohn> i think that's a reasonable thing to require
22:03 < skelterjohn> A spawns B,C,D.  B goes down, A gets an error, shuts
down C,D
22:04 < skelterjohn> if we want to make the java people happy, we could call
the error channel "throw" :)
22:04 < WalterMundt> Perhaps instead of a channel, goroutines-as-expressions
return an interface implemented by the runtime that allows links or error handlers
to be registered?  Hmm...
22:04 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: starting to sound complicated
22:05 < WalterMundt> yeah, just thinking out loud
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22:05 < ekidd> skelterjohn: I'm thinking of loosely coupled goroutines that
involve higher-order channels, where nobody has a good grasp on who spawned what.
But goroutine P knows it depends on some arbitrary goroutine K, and if K dies,
then P knows it can't function correctly.
22:06 < ekidd> skelterjohn: Since you can pass a channel over a channel (and
the example code does so), you pretty much have to assume that parent/child
relationships could get pretty muddy pretty quickly.
22:06 < skelterjohn> right, i understand why this is useful.  but it's
special purpose enough that it might not merit being made part of the language.
if some set of goroutines need babysitters, the code can take the time to set that
up
22:07 < skelterjohn> we already *can* do anything...it's just a question of
what needs to be made convenient
22:07 < WalterMundt> ekidd: skelterjohn's right in that you could pass all
the error chan's off to some monitor goroutine that did some coordinating magic,
though that would obviously not be as simple or easy as using a facility built
into the language
22:08 < skelterjohn> also, this only addresses the issue of cross-goroutine
errors
22:08 < ekidd> WalterMundt: Basically, Erlang's link system has allowed them
to build some pretty hairy production systems, and that's the only real-world
experience that I can think of here.
22:08 < skelterjohn> what about just calling regular functions
22:08 < WalterMundt> I'm still undecided as to whether that is better or
worse than having an actual object to represent a goroutine, that would allow you
to do Erlang-style stuff
22:08 < skelterjohn> should they be able to pass back error channels too?
If so, aren't we just don't java exceptions?
22:09 < WalterMundt> without needing to reimplement the kind of stuff that
Erlang's runtime does
22:09 < ekidd> skelterjohn: True.  Erlang has both exceptions and
cross-process errors.  But over time, the Erlang coding style has converged on
mostly ignoring exceptions.
22:09 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: I'm currently only proposing this as a way
of recovering from panics.  Ordinary function stacks would die along with whatever
goroutine they're running ing
22:09 < WalterMundt> er, in
22:10 < WalterMundt> (in this case, main() is just another goroutine that
happens to come with its error channel attached to the current panic handler)
22:10 < skelterjohn> ah
22:10 < skelterjohn> can main catch its own erros?
22:10 < skelterjohn> errors
22:11 < ekidd> Basically, Erlang coding practice has drifted towards,
"Something weird happen?  Just kill the process." It's almost like Unix utilities
that core-dump on errors.  But by propagating errors across processes and
respawning, they get pretty insane uptimes.
22:11 < WalterMundt> I'n inclined to say no; rather, just require offloading
anything substantial into a separate goroutine if you need that kind of
reliability
22:11 < WalterMundt> er, I'm
22:12 < skelterjohn> func main() {go func() {problem <- errorChan}() ...
errorChan <- problem}
22:12 < ekidd> WalterMundt: So if you really use go-routines as major a
structuring mechanism, you might be able to get along perfectly well without
exceptions.
22:12 < WalterMundt> That's my thesis, yes.
22:16 < ekidd> WalterMundt: Basically, I'll take Go seriously once people
stop ignoring Printf errors in all the example code.  :-) I'm not picky about
_how_ they stop ignoring those errors: Exceptions, fail-fast + links, pink
error-fighting unicorns, etc.
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22:16 < skelterjohn> pfft.  Printf never fails.
22:19 < skelterjohn> I like how that became the last word.
22:19 < skelterjohn> quick, someone say something non-idiotic to end this
conversation
22:34 -!- chachan [n=chachan@150.187.40.27] has joined #go-nuts
22:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wCrl by [Robert Griesemer] in go/ -- adding
individual contributor
22:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wCrn by [Jan Mercl] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- Experimental alternative implementation of the vector package
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22:37 < jessta> skelterjohn: although java has checked exceptions, Java's
system.out.println() doesn't require any exception handling
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22:40 < skelterjohn> is it possible to kill the current goroutine?  Like
Goexit() but just the current one
22:40 < jessta> return...
22:40 < skelterjohn> doesn't do what i ask
22:40 < skelterjohn> only returns one function
22:41 < skelterjohn> basically, return all the way up the stack
22:41 < taruti> skelterjohn: I don't think that it is possible atm
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22:41 < jessta> skelterjohn: I can't imagine that being a good idea
22:42 < skelterjohn> certainly easy to imagine a context where that can be
applied.  whether it is "good" or not is mostly subjective
22:42 < skelterjohn> but if error propagation goes on a channel like
discussed above,
22:42 < skelterjohn> errorChan <- theError; GoKillRoutine();
22:43 < skelterjohn> that kind of thing would be very much like java
exceptions
22:43 < jessta> a goroutine is semantically just a function call, it would
be really strange for a function to return a different function
22:43 < mauke> jessta: why would that be strange?
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22:44 < jessta> ugh...a function to call return for a different function
22:44 < mauke> call return?
22:45 < jessta> a function that calls return for it's caller function
22:45 < jessta> it's totally crazy flow control
22:45 < mauke> return is not a function
22:45 < mauke> you can't call it
22:46 < skelterjohn> jessta: it's what java does.  people seem to get their
heads around it ok
22:47 < jessta> skelterjohn: my point was that Printf() never fails enough
that mostly everyone ignores the possibility
22:47 < jessta> mauke: yes, I know
22:48 < skelterjohn> uh, sure.  my point was i was asking about killing the
current goroutine :)
22:48 < jessta> a goroutine is a function call
22:48 < skelterjohn> (the answer is: you cannot do such a thing)
22:48 < jessta> you can't have a function that does the return of it's
caller because that would be crazy
22:49 < skelterjohn> "crazy" is not a meaningful word.  other languages have
this happen and it works fine
22:49 < skelterjohn> whether or not it fits in with go is a different issue
22:49 < jessta> other languages don't have this
22:49 < mauke> jessta: you can actually have functions return from totally
unrelated other functions
22:50 < skelterjohn> "throw new Throwable();" in java will, unless the
caller has extra code to block it, return all the way up the stack
22:50 < mauke> C, C++, Java, OCaml, Lisp, Scheme and Haskell all have
something like this
22:50 < jessta> skelterjohn: it won't return, it will unroll
22:51 < jessta> skelterjohn: "Goexit terminates the goroutine that calls it.
No other goroutine is affected."
22:51 < skelterjohn> oh interesting
22:51 < skelterjohn> i figured it killed the whole thing
22:51 < jessta> yeah, that would make more sense
22:52 < skelterjohn> and i'm not sure what the difference between return and
unroll is, as far as program execution
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22:52 < skelterjohn> (sorry to bail on the discussion, going to dinner)
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22:53 < jessta> I must bail too, got to do gardening for my grandma
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23:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wE9O by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/cmd/gofmt/ -- update test.sh so it can run to completion again
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 22 00:00:34 2009