--- Log opened Mon Dec 21 00:00:34 2009 00:04 -!- defectiv [n=clays@adsl-71-134-230-213.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:11 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-79-180-116-125.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-79-180-116-125.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:12 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-81.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:14 -!- ThePok [n=fufuuuer@p5DD6B199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:15 -!- fhs [n=fhs@pool-72-89-203-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17 -!- hiromtz [n=hiromtz@p4004-ipbf1304akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 00:23 -!- Sungem_ [i=ss@118-168-236-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:28 -!- path[l]_ [n=path@115.240.101.159] has joined #go-nuts 00:36 -!- fejes [n=fejes@S010600173117d936.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36 -!- eazel7 [i=eazel7@186.13.35.39] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41 -!- Sungem [i=ss@118-168-236-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:41 -!- pshahmumbai [n=prashant@59.164.24.199] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:43 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577ADF7A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577ADF7A.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:45 -!- path[l] [n=path@115.240.57.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:53 -!- ejb [n=ejb@unaffiliated/ejb] has joined #go-nuts 00:54 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:55 < Vova> whats mmap: errno=0x0 error? 00:57 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048235168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 01:04 -!- mbarkhau1 [n=koloss@p54A7EE90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:08 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@c-98-215-178-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:14 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-144-54.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.1-dev"] 01:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:17 -!- cpr420 [n=cpr420@c-67-165-199-143.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:19 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #go-nuts 01:20 -!- defectiv [n=clays@adsl-71-134-230-213.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:22 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7E5D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:23 < Gracenotes> Vova: something to do with not being able to allocate more space, I believe 01:23 -!- cpr420 [n=cpr420@c-67-165-199-143.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 01:25 -!- webbpa [n=chatzill@c-69-243-169-178.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:26 < Gracenotes> I don't think 0 is an actual mmap errno 01:26 < webbpa> Why did you guys make go so awesome? 01:26 < webbpa> Srsly. 01:27 < jessta> webbpa: I think it was a plan to make people depressed 01:27 < webbpa> How so? 01:28 < webbpa> About their day job you mean? 01:28 < jessta> go is awesome, but your job is very unlikely to let you code in it 01:30 -!- Guest87589 [n=elmar@dslb-188-097-072-181.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:32 < Gracenotes> looks like SysCall hooks into runtime_mmap, which is #define'd to be runtime·mmap, which is written in assembly 01:34 < Gracenotes> meh. 01:34 < Gracenotes> reminds me I need to learn more about x86 conventions. 01:34 -!- webbpa [n=chatzill@c-69-243-169-178.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:35 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.128] has quit ["I ascend to reality!"] 01:40 -!- tar_ [n=tom@c-24-7-89-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:49 -!- defectiv [n=clays@adsl-71-134-230-213.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:52 -!- defectiv [n=clays@adsl-71-134-230-213.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-67-232.singnet.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 02:04 -!- lotrpy [n=lotrpy@202.38.97.230] has joined #go-nuts 02:09 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-37-82-253-18-222.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:17 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 02:18 -!- Vova [i=Vova@80.178.2.141.adsl.012.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27 -!- tor7 [n=tor@c-987a71d5.04-50-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 02:30 -!- brrant [n=John@168-103-78-133.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:32 -!- RooTer [i=rooter@87-205-56-205.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit ["<sresp.co.cc>"] 02:39 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577ADF7A.versanet.de] has quit ["http://raichoo.blogspot.com"] 02:43 < zen> Gracenotes: been coding x86 for long? 02:45 < Gracenotes> haven't coded anything. know MIPS from school, just this semester, and I'm rather familiar with C. I'm reading some learn-assembly-with-x86 books, and going through them quickly with prior knowledge 02:52 -!- lotrpy [n=lotrpy@202.38.97.230] has quit [] 02:55 -!- vizzord [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has joined #go-nuts 02:55 -!- vizzord [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55 -!- vizzord [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has joined #go-nuts 03:04 -!- path[l]_ [n=path@115.240.101.159] has joined #go-nuts 03:05 -!- path[l] [n=path@115.240.101.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08 -!- kota1111 [n=kota1111@gw2.kbmj.jp] has joined #go-nuts 03:18 -!- NinoScript [n=Adium@pc-201-142-239-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:18 < NinoScript> #peanut 03:18 < NinoScript> emm… ups 03:22 -!- vizzord [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has quit ["see you"] 03:25 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 03:37 -!- mitchellh [n=mitchell@c-24-9-124-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:40 -!- amacleod 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has joined #go-nuts 05:19 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:20 -!- vigith [n=Vigith@nat/yahoo/x-bjxqmpmhrzzycera] has joined #go-nuts 05:20 < vigith> Comparing stages 2 and 3 05:20 < vigith> warning: gcc/cc1-checksum.o differs 05:20 < vigith> warning: gcc/cc1plus-checksum.o differs 05:20 < vigith> Bootstrap comparison failure! 05:21 < vigith> has anyone come across this earlier .. i am not getting any concrete steps to fix this.... 05:21 < vigith> Darwin XXXXXXXXX.yahoo.com 8.11.1 Darwin Kernel Version 8.11.1: Wed Oct 10 18:23:28 PDT 2007; root:xnu-792.25.20~1/RELEASE_I386 i386 i386 05:23 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:33 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:35 -!- Sungem [i=ss@118-168-236-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:37 -!- tar_ [n=tom@c-24-7-89-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:39 -!- Moka [n=Espresso@brndmb0245w-ad03-248-111.dynamic.mts.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:39 < Moka> nuts 05:39 < Moka> wow lots of people here 05:39 < Moka> any1 here? 05:40 < Moka> omg... 05:40 < fejes> heh 05:40 < fejes> there are knowledgeable people here too. 05:40 < fejes> I'm just not one of them. 05:40 < Moka> hi 05:47 -!- Moka [n=Espresso@brndmb0245w-ad03-248-111.dynamic.mts.net] has left #go-nuts [] 05:57 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #go-nuts 06:02 -!- Sungem_ [i=ss@118-168-236-122.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:12 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.85.231] has joined #go-nuts 06:17 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.85.231] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:21 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:25 -!- BlackM [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has joined #go-nuts 06:27 -!- mitchellh 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10:46 -!- kota1111 [n=kota1111@gw2.kbmj.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:47 -!- scyth [n=scyth@zeljko.eunet.rs] has joined #go-nuts 10:48 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:50 < rhatta> Can I set $GOBIN equal to $GOROOT/bin or is this not a good idea? 10:51 < rhatta> hi 10:51 -!- sliceofpi [n=sliceofp@c-98-194-205-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51 -!- sliceofpi [n=sliceofp@c-98-194-205-176.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:51 -!- bpalmer` [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has left #go-nuts ["ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.6 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:51 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:52 -!- tomestla1 [n=tom@87.100.115.221] has joined #go-nuts 10:53 -!- tomestla [n=tom@87.100.115.221] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:54 -!- JSharpe2 [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 10:55 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59 < Enselic> rhatta: if you are ok with the installed binary being in the source tree, it's fine 11:00 < Enselic> rhatta: as long as you have PATH properly setup, of course 11:04 < rhatta> Enselic: hmm, thanks. I'll just keep my current setup (dirs are separate). I'm a n00b and just got curious. 11:05 -!- jdp [n=justin@75.97.120.11.res-cmts.senj.ptd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06 -!- no_mind [n=orion@122.162.191.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:15 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048235168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 11:21 -!- KirkMcDo1ald [n=Kirk@24.143.227.33] has joined #go-nuts 11:25 -!- KirkMcDonald [n=Kirk@pysoy/developer/KirkMcDonald] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:26 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048235168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 11:29 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:30 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.85.231] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:31 -!- Raziel2p [n=Raziel2p@ti0032a380-dhcp0316.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 11:31 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has quit [] 11:34 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 11:35 -!- JSharpe2 [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:39 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 11:39 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 11:42 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@78.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #go-nuts 11:42 -!- x2cast [n=alvaro@78.127.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #go-nuts [] 11:47 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:51 -!- tor7 [n=tor@c-987a71d5.04-50-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 11:54 -!- fredmorcos [n=fred@41.178.115.221] has joined #go-nuts 11:55 -!- tor7_ [n=tor@c-987a71d5.04-50-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 11:55 -!- tor7 [n=tor@c-987a71d5.04-50-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.138.244] has joined #go-nuts 11:57 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:05 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 12:08 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 12:12 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048235168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 12:14 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 12:16 -!- p4p4 [n=P4p4@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:17 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has joined #go-nuts 12:20 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:23 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad673c3.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:23 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048235168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 12:25 -!- hiromtz [n=hiromtz@p4004-ipbf1304akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:25 -!- hiromtz [n=hiromtz@p4004-ipbf1304akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 12:31 -!- Fish-Work [n=Fish@86.65.182.194] has joined #go-nuts 12:33 -!- callidus [n=quassel@cpc2-newc1-0-0-cust1524.gate.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:35 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.175.13] has joined #go-nuts 12:48 < callidus> hello go users, has anyone got an info on possible GUI/Widget projects using go ? 12:49 < dagle> callidus: The gui api in go is pretty much experimental at this stage. 12:50 < callidus> thanks dagle, I ask because im interested in developing a XUL style GUI kit using Go 12:51 < callidus> just trying to see what else is out there before I start building anything 12:51 < dagle> Oki. 12:52 < dagle> xml is not so loved in general by go developers. 12:52 < callidus> ahh, whats the prefered alternative ? JSON or somthing else ? 12:52 < dagle> Yeah. JSON. 12:53 < callidus> right ok, ill look into that. 12:53 < callidus> thanks for the info dagle 12:53 < dagle> But whats wrong with draw? 12:53 -!- addos [n=addos@cpe-065-190-063-023.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:55 < callidus> well, nothing, i was planning on using it as the rendering base. Im interested in a scriptable GUI concept. I.e. 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14:47 -!- murodes1 [n=James@124-169-139-152.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 -!- woremacx [n=woremacx@unaffiliated/woremacx] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 -!- jlouis [i=jlouis@130.225.165.29] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 -!- zidoh_ [n=bjornar@pyrrophlagalon.nithia.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 -!- dizm [n=dizm@121.98.168.127] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 -!- borisc [n=borisc@borisc2.csbnet.se] has joined #go-nuts 14:48 -!- Raziel2p` [n=Raziel2p@ti0032a380-dhcp0316.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 14:49 < kleinchris> does somebody already developed a mysql or postgresql package? 14:49 -!- Raziel2p [n=Raziel2p@ti0032a380-dhcp0316.bb.online.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:49 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 14:52 -!- lux_ [n=lux@151.71.212.221] has joined #go-nuts 14:53 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-228-156-243.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.1-dev"] 14:53 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.175.13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56 -!- Enselic 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-!- shasbot [n=shasbot@ip70-171-218-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:03 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wqZ7 by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/8g/ -- 8g: add TESTL etc to reg opt 19:03 -!- mitchellh [n=mitchell@97-118-158-109.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:03 -!- mitchellh [n=mitchell@97-118-158-109.hlrn.qwest.net] has left #go-nuts [] 19:04 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:07 -!- gnuvince_ [n=vince@72.0.219.172] has joined #go-nuts 19:07 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.219.95] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:15 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:18 -!- General13372 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:22 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:25 -!- chachan [n=chachan@ccscliente156.ifxnetworks.net.ve] has joined #go-nuts 19:29 -!- teedex 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[n=vince@70.35.161.53] has quit ["What the fruit is goin' on here!?"] 20:49 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.219.232] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- mc1 [n=quassel@DN4441a30d.Stanford.EDU] has quit ["No Ping reply in 90 seconds."] 20:53 -!- mc1 [n=quassel@DN4441a30d.Stanford.EDU] has joined #go-nuts 20:55 -!- defectiv [n=clays@75.101.111.19] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:00 -!- mc1_ [n=quassel@DN4441a30d.Stanford.EDU] has joined #go-nuts 21:00 -!- mc1 [n=quassel@DN4441a30d.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01 -!- chachan [n=chachan@ccscliente156.ifxnetworks.net.ve] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: , sources date: 20090520, built on: 2009/06/06 11:44:47 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:03 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-60-82-254-252-34.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:07 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.14/2009090900]"] 21:08 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@scorpion.mps.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09 -!- snearch_ [n=olaf@e179142058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:12 < ekidd> Go looks like a very pleasant language, with good concurrency and an interesting interface system. 21:13 < ekidd> But after watching the introductory video and reading the tutorial, I'm still not sure about how to gracefully handle errors. 21:14 < ekidd> Do I check the result of every function I call, and pass errors up the call chain manually? 21:14 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:14 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:15 < taruti> yes 21:15 < ekidd> That seems a little dodgy: It would involve lots of boiler plate, and I notice that Printf calls the writer interface (which returns errors), but none of the example code ever checks for an error returned by Printf. 21:15 -!- KillerX [n=anant@nat/mozilla/x-ngdwlrjrgcmopcri] has joined #go-nuts 21:15 < ekidd> So either people are lazy about checking error codes, or something magic is happening in Printf. 21:15 < taruti> what would you like to do if Printf fauked? 21:15 < taruti> *failed 21:16 < taruti> people are ignoring it 21:16 < taruti> since most of the time they don't care 21:17 < ekidd> taruti: Generally? Terminate the process, kill the socket connection, assume the file I'm writing is garbage, or something along those lines. When Printf fails, it's usually because something is seriously wrong. 21:18 < taruti> or ignore it like most C code does 21:18 < taruti> if the write is critical you check it for errors, if it is just extra information it can be ignored 21:18 < ekidd> Erlang has a rather interesting approach: Serious errors usually just kill the current process, and the error propagates to other processes using links. 21:19 < ekidd> taruti: Well, most C code that I've seen in my career is--unfortunately--buggy junk. 21:19 < jessta> ekidd: yeah, I'd like to see something similar to erlangs model in Go 21:19 < jessta> but it's tricky 21:19 < ekidd> Personally, I'm unwilling to silently ignore errors in the general case. 21:19 < taruti> go-routines lacking identity is a problem for that 21:19 < jessta> because channels aren't message queues 21:20 < ekidd> taruti: Eww, I see what you mean. They're not first class, so you can't link to them. 21:20 < jessta> goroutines also don't have a single queues they recieve on, they can recieive and send on many channels 21:20 < taruti> the erlang approach is nice in erlang 21:21 < taruti> having channels instead of message queues does not make it impossible 21:21 < jessta> which makes progagating confusing 21:21 < ekidd> I'm certainly not convinced that exceptions are the correct answer for Go. 21:21 < taruti> simply have: go_linked(function, callback for sending error) 21:21 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has quit ["leaving"] 21:22 < ekidd> But I've spent a non-trivial chunk of my career carefully checking every error code from every function, and I find that (a) it makes the code really ugly, and (b) most people will just write buggy code instead. 21:23 < jessta> taruti: erlang terminates linked processes unless they specifly state they want to handle exit signals 21:23 < ekidd> taruti: You might even be able to do something like: 21:23 < jessta> ekidd: most people will write buggy code no matter what you do 21:24 < ekidd> go function(arg, output, link_to_somebody_who_cares_about_failure) 21:24 < jessta> also, channels are unidirectional 21:25 < taruti> ekidd: what would the link_to_somebody_who_cares_about_failure be? 21:25 < jessta> if a parent goroutine errors out, it might need to tell it's children about that 21:26 < ekidd> taruti: You would have to pass the failure channel down through many levels of goroutines. But anyplace a failure occurred, you could signal somebody who cared and then just die, and leave all the intermediate goroutines between somebody_who_cares and somebody_who_failed for the GC/runtime to clean up. 21:27 < ekidd> jessta: True, and Erlang links offer some reasonable ways to handle that, IIRC. 21:27 < jessta> also, re-spawning goroutines is very different from re-spawning in erlang 21:27 < taruti> ekidd: but it needs a function there instead of a channel. Because with a channel the receiver won't know which of the children died. 21:27 < taruti> so it needs a way to add a tag to the value sent down the channel 21:28 -!- isparry [n=isparry@f070.brocade.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:28 < ekidd> Since I'm personally obsessive about checking errors, I always check one thing when looking at a new language: Do the examples in the tutorial omit error handling in the name of "clarity" or "simplicity"? 21:30 < ekidd> If correct error-handling code is neither clear nor simple, then I figure that programming in the language will be a fairly miserable experience. 21:30 -!- ukl [n=ukl@f053125097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["bye"] 21:30 < taruti> ekidd: error handling and generics are still an open problem in go. 21:31 < ekidd> taruti: Indeed. But error handling is really a bit of blocker for me. :-( I can live with all the other interesting bits! 21:32 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:33 < taruti> ekidd: wait some months, go is certainly not ready for production applications yet. 21:33 < jessta> taruti: error handling is fine, exception handling is still an open problem 21:33 < ekidd> taruti: In my example, I figure that somebody would have to watch the failure channel and either respawn the computation or log an error when a failure occurred. You could easy see something like 'go respawnner(computation_func, result_channel)', which would set up the failure channel, pass it to computation_func, and deal with the errors. 21:34 -!- Rob_Russell [n=chatzill@206-248-157-156.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:34 < ekidd> jessta: It seems like respawning wouldn't be super-difficult in Go, although you might need to duplicate your respawning code for various types. 21:36 < taruti> ekidd: think of a supervisor with N (dynamic number) children. 21:36 < ekidd> taruti: Yeah, the supervisor would probably have to spawn one wrapper per child, and let the wrappers figure out what to do when a child failed. 21:37 < taruti> ekidd: or simply use a callback function instead of the channel. 21:38 < taruti> which makes the "many children" case simpler. 21:38 < ekidd> taruti: The advantage of this approach is that the error channel doesn't need to know anything about child IDs, respawning, or anything like that: It only needs to know how to report a failure. I suppose you could pass a callback, too, if you preferred that approach. 21:39 < taruti> a callback is more powerful 21:39 < taruti> most of the time it would just emit the failure to the error channel tagged suitable 21:40 < taruti> which omits the need for those wrapper processes 21:40 < ekidd> I was thinking of using Go for an experimental web crawler and text munger. Erlang's string processing is fairly weak (and the compiler does not generate particularly stellar code), and so I'm willing to take some technical risk on an experimental language. 21:40 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has joined #go-nuts 21:41 < taruti> erlang + crm114 ;) 21:42 -!- rhelmer [n=rhelmer@adsl-71-139-219-78.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:42 < ekidd> taruti: Yeah, but it's sort of like exceptions: You either deal with them near the callsite, or you pass them so far back up the call chain that the cost of wrapper goroutine had really better not matter very much at all. So the two solutions are probably pretty much isomorphic. 21:42 -!- rhatta [n=rhatta@TE0039lan1.rev.em-net.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 21:42 < ekidd> I'm assuming goroutines are supposed to be too cheap to worry about, for the most part. 21:43 < ekidd> jessta: Is there any work in progress on links, exception handling, etc. 21:44 < ekidd> I don't mind slightly dodgy compilers, but I don't want to do a lot of work in Go if I have to wait a long time for the error-handling tools to fully mature. 21:50 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.219.232] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:52 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.219.165] has joined #go-nuts 21:53 < WalterMundt> ekidd: perhaps, but be aware that each currently minimally allocates a few k for a stack 21:53 < WalterMundt> (wrt cheap goroutines) 21:53 -!- Richard [n=Richard@ool-4357813d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:54 < Skiddie> SUp ^^ 21:54 < Skiddie> this is Google GO's programming language IRC channel, right? 21:54 < WalterMundt> ekidd: there's currently a 52-post thread on the most recent proposal for exceptions, but most of it is wrangling over whether any of the existing models are a fit for the language 21:54 < WalterMundt> Skiddie: yeah 21:55 < WalterMundt> ekidd: (on the go-nuts list) 21:55 < ekidd> WalterMundt: I'm pretty agnostic about the model, and would be fine with pretty much anything that fit the language: exceptions, Erlang-style links, something clever and new. 21:55 < Skiddie> Nice.. 21:56 < WalterMundt> same here, but I really want there to be *something*, preferably reasonably soon 21:56 < WalterMundt> as in, a way to make the process not die if some bit of code in a library misbehaves 21:56 < ekidd> WalterMundt: Thanks for the pointer, though! I'm reading the thread now. 21:57 < taruti> that is mostly about Java-style exceptions 21:57 -!- webbpa [n=chatzill@c-69-243-169-178.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:57 < WalterMundt> so far, I'm siding with the proposal to give goroutines an "error channel" they use to signal panics, which propagates unless the spawner of the goroutine asks to handle it 21:57 < ekidd> WalterMundt: The Erlang solution is actually kind of interesting, because it takes an opposite approach: Die aggressively, but be careful about propagating. 21:57 < ekidd> Exactly. 21:58 < skelterjohn> maybe the statement "go foo()" should return such a channel? 21:58 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 21:58 < skelterjohn> and reserve some keyword to refer to the channel for the current goroutine 21:58 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: that's the idea, except that if you don't save it (i.e. treat the statement as one and not an expression) then the runtime does some magic to make errors propagate 21:59 < WalterMundt> hmm, that's an idea, and not yet proposed -- perhaps mention it in the increasingly-derailed aforementioned thread? 21:59 < ekidd> Checking error return code is most objectionable when there's a big stack in between the error and the recovery code. And in that case, relying on goroutines links is perfectly acceptable. 21:59 < WalterMundt> there is also the issue of what happens if an intermediate goroutine ends 21:59 < taruti> adding an identity to go-routines would make things simpler 22:00 -!- bthomson [n=bthomson@pool-71-114-74-245.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00 < WalterMundt> A spawns B spawns C, B exits normally, C panics, nobody saved an error channel -- what happens? 22:00 < skelterjohn> like you said...if you don't grab C's error channel in B it gets chained to B's 22:00 < ekidd> WalterMundt: I think A should probably get the error. 22:00 < skelterjohn> which would mean that A gets it 22:00 < WalterMundt> I think so too, but didn't think to put it in my last post 22:01 < skelterjohn> which means you can catch all in main() 22:01 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: perhaps you could put that in as well, when you suggest a keyword for referring to the goroutine's own error chan? 22:01 < skelterjohn> haven't got time to catch up with that thread, really sorry 22:01 < WalterMundt> k 22:01 < skelterjohn> i have an exam in a few hours 22:02 < WalterMundt> if you're interested in the debate, you might want to drop in after 22:02 < ekidd> WalterMundt: The only drawbacks with this proposal: (a) it creates a second kind of "invisible" channel, instead of somehow reusing the existing channel mechanism, and (b) there's no way to add extra error links to arbitrary peer go-routines (e.g., "if this server goes down, then I'm toast, too"). 22:02 < WalterMundt> I doubt the debate is going to go away in the next day or three 22:02 < ekidd> WalterMundt: But I think you're in the right ballpark. 22:03 < skelterjohn> ekidd: the channel isn't invisible...it's just implicit? And the (b), the parent process would have to relay tha tmessage to the subprocesses 22:03 < WalterMundt> good point 22:03 < skelterjohn> i think that's a reasonable thing to require 22:03 < skelterjohn> A spawns B,C,D. B goes down, A gets an error, shuts down C,D 22:04 < skelterjohn> if we want to make the java people happy, we could call the error channel "throw" :) 22:04 < WalterMundt> Perhaps instead of a channel, goroutines-as-expressions return an interface implemented by the runtime that allows links or error handlers to be registered? Hmm... 22:04 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: starting to sound complicated 22:05 < WalterMundt> yeah, just thinking out loud 22:05 -!- bthomson [n=bthomson@c-69-255-188-5.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:05 < ekidd> skelterjohn: I'm thinking of loosely coupled goroutines that involve higher-order channels, where nobody has a good grasp on who spawned what. But goroutine P knows it depends on some arbitrary goroutine K, and if K dies, then P knows it can't function correctly. 22:06 < ekidd> skelterjohn: Since you can pass a channel over a channel (and the example code does so), you pretty much have to assume that parent/child relationships could get pretty muddy pretty quickly. 22:06 < skelterjohn> right, i understand why this is useful. but it's special purpose enough that it might not merit being made part of the language. if some set of goroutines need babysitters, the code can take the time to set that up 22:07 < skelterjohn> we already *can* do anything...it's just a question of what needs to be made convenient 22:07 < WalterMundt> ekidd: skelterjohn's right in that you could pass all the error chan's off to some monitor goroutine that did some coordinating magic, though that would obviously not be as simple or easy as using a facility built into the language 22:08 < skelterjohn> also, this only addresses the issue of cross-goroutine errors 22:08 < ekidd> WalterMundt: Basically, Erlang's link system has allowed them to build some pretty hairy production systems, and that's the only real-world experience that I can think of here. 22:08 < skelterjohn> what about just calling regular functions 22:08 < WalterMundt> I'm still undecided as to whether that is better or worse than having an actual object to represent a goroutine, that would allow you to do Erlang-style stuff 22:08 < skelterjohn> should they be able to pass back error channels too? If so, aren't we just don't java exceptions? 22:09 < WalterMundt> without needing to reimplement the kind of stuff that Erlang's runtime does 22:09 < ekidd> skelterjohn: True. Erlang has both exceptions and cross-process errors. But over time, the Erlang coding style has converged on mostly ignoring exceptions. 22:09 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: I'm currently only proposing this as a way of recovering from panics. Ordinary function stacks would die along with whatever goroutine they're running ing 22:09 < WalterMundt> er, in 22:10 < WalterMundt> (in this case, main() is just another goroutine that happens to come with its error channel attached to the current panic handler) 22:10 < skelterjohn> ah 22:10 < skelterjohn> can main catch its own erros? 22:10 < skelterjohn> errors 22:11 < ekidd> Basically, Erlang coding practice has drifted towards, "Something weird happen? Just kill the process." It's almost like Unix utilities that core-dump on errors. But by propagating errors across processes and respawning, they get pretty insane uptimes. 22:11 < WalterMundt> I'n inclined to say no; rather, just require offloading anything substantial into a separate goroutine if you need that kind of reliability 22:11 < WalterMundt> er, I'm 22:12 < skelterjohn> func main() {go func() {problem <- errorChan}() ... errorChan <- problem} 22:12 < ekidd> WalterMundt: So if you really use go-routines as major a structuring mechanism, you might be able to get along perfectly well without exceptions. 22:12 < WalterMundt> That's my thesis, yes. 22:16 < ekidd> WalterMundt: Basically, I'll take Go seriously once people stop ignoring Printf errors in all the example code. :-) I'm not picky about _how_ they stop ignoring those errors: Exceptions, fail-fast + links, pink error-fighting unicorns, etc. 22:16 -!- Skiddie [n=Richard@ool-4357813d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16 < skelterjohn> pfft. Printf never fails. 22:19 < skelterjohn> I like how that became the last word. 22:19 < skelterjohn> quick, someone say something non-idiotic to end this conversation 22:34 -!- chachan [n=chachan@150.187.40.27] has joined #go-nuts 22:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wCrl by [Robert Griesemer] in go/ -- adding individual contributor 22:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wCrn by [Jan Mercl] in 2 subdirs of go/src/pkg/ -- Experimental alternative implementation of the vector package 22:36 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has left #go-nuts [] 22:37 < jessta> skelterjohn: although java has checked exceptions, Java's system.out.println() doesn't require any exception handling 22:39 -!- TheBlueWizard [i=tbw@dialup-4.249.51.109.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:40 < skelterjohn> is it possible to kill the current goroutine? Like Goexit() but just the current one 22:40 < jessta> return... 22:40 < skelterjohn> doesn't do what i ask 22:40 < skelterjohn> only returns one function 22:41 < skelterjohn> basically, return all the way up the stack 22:41 < taruti> skelterjohn: I don't think that it is possible atm 22:41 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41 < jessta> skelterjohn: I can't imagine that being a good idea 22:42 < skelterjohn> certainly easy to imagine a context where that can be applied. whether it is "good" or not is mostly subjective 22:42 < skelterjohn> but if error propagation goes on a channel like discussed above, 22:42 < skelterjohn> errorChan <- theError; GoKillRoutine(); 22:43 < skelterjohn> that kind of thing would be very much like java exceptions 22:43 < jessta> a goroutine is semantically just a function call, it would be really strange for a function to return a different function 22:43 < mauke> jessta: why would that be strange? 22:43 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:44 -!- TheBlueWizard [i=tbw@dialup-4.249.51.109.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net] has left #go-nuts [] 22:44 < jessta> ugh...a function to call return for a different function 22:44 < mauke> call return? 22:45 < jessta> a function that calls return for it's caller function 22:45 < jessta> it's totally crazy flow control 22:45 < mauke> return is not a function 22:45 < mauke> you can't call it 22:46 < skelterjohn> jessta: it's what java does. people seem to get their heads around it ok 22:47 < jessta> skelterjohn: my point was that Printf() never fails enough that mostly everyone ignores the possibility 22:47 < jessta> mauke: yes, I know 22:48 < skelterjohn> uh, sure. my point was i was asking about killing the current goroutine :) 22:48 < jessta> a goroutine is a function call 22:48 < skelterjohn> (the answer is: you cannot do such a thing) 22:48 < jessta> you can't have a function that does the return of it's caller because that would be crazy 22:49 < skelterjohn> "crazy" is not a meaningful word. other languages have this happen and it works fine 22:49 < skelterjohn> whether or not it fits in with go is a different issue 22:49 < jessta> other languages don't have this 22:49 < mauke> jessta: you can actually have functions return from totally unrelated other functions 22:50 < skelterjohn> "throw new Throwable();" in java will, unless the caller has extra code to block it, return all the way up the stack 22:50 < mauke> C, C++, Java, OCaml, Lisp, Scheme and Haskell all have something like this 22:50 < jessta> skelterjohn: it won't return, it will unroll 22:51 < jessta> skelterjohn: "Goexit terminates the goroutine that calls it. No other goroutine is affected." 22:51 < skelterjohn> oh interesting 22:51 < skelterjohn> i figured it killed the whole thing 22:51 < jessta> yeah, that would make more sense 22:52 < skelterjohn> and i'm not sure what the difference between return and unroll is, as far as program execution 22:52 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 22:52 < skelterjohn> (sorry to bail on the discussion, going to dinner) 22:53 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 22:53 < jessta> I must bail too, got to do gardening for my grandma 22:55 -!- dipoll [n=dmytro@212.92.227.60] has joined #go-nuts 22:56 -!- defectiv [n=clays@c-24-5-65-40.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:59 -!- tomestla1 [n=tom@87.100.115.221] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:05 -!- xerox_ [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #go-nuts 23:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5wE9O by [Robert Griesemer] in go/src/cmd/gofmt/ -- update test.sh so it can run to completion again 23:07 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 23:09 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 23:10 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12 -!- Tuller [n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:17 -!- ShadowIce [i=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:20 -!- defectiv [n=clays@c-24-5-65-40.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:22 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 23:23 -!- ekidd [n=ekidd@130.189.179.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23 -!- ekidd [n=ekidd@130.189.179.230] has joined #go-nuts 23:31 -!- dipoll [n=dmytro@212.92.227.60] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:37 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 23:39 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577ACD92.versanet.de] has quit ["http://raichoo.blogspot.com"] 23:44 -!- ehird [n=ehird@91.104.233.74] has joined #go-nuts 23:45 -!- ekidd [n=ekidd@130.189.179.230] has quit [] 23:50 -!- Guest9191 [n=elmar@dslb-188-097-012-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:54 -!- scarabx [n=scarabx@c-24-147-239-120.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:55 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@137.65.133.164] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] --- Log closed Tue Dec 22 00:00:34 2009