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03:00 < BiggestAl> Well, installe go on a Mac and got the hello world app to
compile and run, so I guess so far so good...
03:00 < BiggestAl> Any recommendations on where to start after that?
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03:14 < BiggestAl> Thanks, appreciate the help :p
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03:19 < dagle> BiggestAl: you have done the 3 day tutorial?
03:20 < BiggestAl> Nop, just installed go and did the hello world 1st app in
it, looking for a recommendation on where to start, docs folder, web site, where
is good?
03:20 < dagle> BiggestAl: Website is generate from the docs so.
03:22 < BiggestAl> a 3 day tutorial sounds fun, that on the site?
03:22 < dagle> Yes.
03:22 < dagle> Under tutorial.
03:24 < BiggestAl> DOH - scrapping foot on carpet, feeling sheepish,
Tutorial is the FIRST item on the menu, no wonder Imissed it LMAO
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03:26 < dagle> :)
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08:54 < Xeon> cant into golang.org
08:55 < Xeon> cant into mailing list either
08:55 < kaigan|work> site loads fine here
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10:55 < Kashia> I wish you could Tag methods in an interface like fields in
a struct...
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11:01 < jessta> Kashia: Tag?
11:01 < Kashia> yes, tag.
11:01 < jessta> what do you mean?
11:02 < Kashia> see the struct type in http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html
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11:03 < Kashia> for a bigger example, I think the xml de-serializing package
uses it
11:03 < jessta> ah, I see
11:04 < Kashia> Annotating fields with arbitrary information, quite a nice
idea :)
11:04 < jessta> it might be good to have it for methods, but it might be a
bit too constraining
11:05 < Kashia> I'm not sure.  I thought about it a little, and I'm not even
sure it's the right way to go.
11:06 < jessta> a field in struct has a specific use, the behaviour of a
method in an interface isn't really specific
11:06 < Kashia> yes, I came to that conclustion too
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11:07 < jessta> thanks for mentioning it, I didn't notice the tagging
previously
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11:08 < Kashia> a relatively obscure feature
11:08 < Kashia> but really useful for serialization
11:08 < Kashia> makes for quite nice user-side code...
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18:16 < timmcd> Hey, hypothetically, would Go be appropriate/possible to
write a kernel in?
18:18 <+iant> some day, perhaps; it would need a mode to disable the garbage
collector
18:18 <+iant> correct manipulation of memory mapped hardware would require
some sort of equivalent to C's volatile, or would have to be written in assembler
18:19 < timmcd> interesting, thanks!  ^_^
18:20 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts
18:20 < timmcd> Is there a base place yet for browsing Go libraries and C
library wrappings?
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18:21 <+iant> you can look at http://go-lang.cat-v.org/
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18:22 < skelterjohn> you should really link that site on your main page :)
18:22 <+iant> yeah, we need to overhaul the page slightly
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18:34 < sheb> hi all
18:34 < dagle> Hello.
18:34 < sheb> i'm searching how to open and read a file
18:36 <+iant> e.g., os.Open, bufio.ReadBytes
18:37 < WalterMundt> I just tried to update to the new release and rebuild,
and it appears one of the tests is segfaulting: http://gopaste.org/view/324G6
18:38 <+iant> WalterMundt: that is odd; if it is repeatable please open an
issue for it
18:38 <+iant> I have not seen that
18:38 < WalterMundt> I'll rerun the build and see what happens
18:40 < dho> afternoon
18:40 < dho> iant: thanks for the reply
18:40 <+iant> I would be interested to hear what Russ has to say, but he is
off until 2010
18:40 < dho> yeah
18:40 < dho> it can certainly wait
18:40 < WalterMundt> I'm a bit surprised at the amount of flame over the
semicolon change.  I'm much more interested in things like how efficient the
scheduler gets or how cheap goroutines can get
18:40 < dho> not that time-critical
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18:41 < dho> WalterMundt: it's quite clear that those in opposition haven't
written any go code
18:41 <+iant> the semicolon change is a classic bikeshed issue
18:41 < dho> WalterMundt: in the general case, it makes all programs clearer
18:41 < dho> iant: pink.
18:41 <+iant> ha
18:42 < dho> and the number of projects who have style guidelines that
require the format to be similar to what go requires leads me to believe those who
aren't writing in that style are either novices or horrible spaghetti coder types
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18:43 < dho> only difference I've noticed is the func foo(...) (...) {,
whereas most places I've worked / projects I've contributed to would have that
curly brace on the next line.
18:43 < dho> But it really does not matter *that* much.
18:43 < WalterMundt> *shrugs* I'm not inclined to care so much about style.
I was horribly offended by Python's whitespaceisms when I started with that
language and it's become one of my favorites for completely unrelated reasons.
18:43 < dho> *nods* I really wish they had made those global and not
per-scope.
18:44 * dho is waiting for a tow truck :(
18:44 <+iant> yuck
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18:45 < dho> rats chewed through my engine wiring :(
18:45 <+iant> you probably forgot to put out food on Christmas eve
18:46 <+iant> they notice things like that
18:46 < WalterMundt> I'm very happy not to have to drive much at all any
more.
18:48 < WalterMundt> I've found that a walking "commute" (vs.  driving or
subway) makes life more pleasant out of all proportion with the amount of time one
spends on it.
18:49 < skelterjohn> i had a cycling commute for a while
18:49 < skelterjohn> it was pretty nice
18:49 < skelterjohn> rode through a park on the way to campus
18:50 <+iant> My commute is bike to bus
18:50 <+iant> walking would be better
18:50 < skelterjohn> two-step commutes are a drain
18:50 < skelterjohn> before i got my bike i had to take two buses to get to
the same spot
18:51 < WalterMundt> I go back and forth between bike and walking.  My last
commute was rush-hour NYC subway; quite a contrast (I'm not in NYC any more).
18:52 < skelterjohn> living in NJ doesn't make for nice commutes.  i drive
~30 minutes with low traffic, but my fiancee spends 90 minutes on the turnpike
every day
18:52 < skelterjohn> she hates NJ :'(
18:54 < WalterMundt> iant: bug evaporated after three builds.  I did the
second to test for reproducibility and the third to save complete build output to
a file for reference, and the output file was a clean build.  *shrugs*
18:54 < dho> heh
18:54 < dho> i hate nj :\
18:54 <+iant> oy
18:54 < WalterMundt> I would too in her shoes.
18:55 < skelterjohn> NJ is a wonderful place.  parts of it, anyway.  The
turnpike is not one of them.
18:55 < dho> s/wonderful/stinky cesspool of a/
18:55 < dho> (sorry)
18:55 < skelterjohn> I only wish this were in person so I could stare you
down convincingly
18:55 < dho> heh
18:55 < WalterMundt> Yeah, but how many people get to live in the nice parts
without having to spend a nontrivial chunk of their life on the turnpike?
18:56 < skelterjohn> and then do a fist pump
18:56 * dho is going to have to find a different parking spot
18:56 < dho> stupid city.  :(
18:56 < skelterjohn> people who work in NE jersey use the turnpike to get to
work
18:56 < skelterjohn> most populous bit of NJ, sure
18:57 < skelterjohn> I grew up in Princeton, which is quite nice
18:57 < skelterjohn> also, the northwest is really nice
18:59 < WalterMundt> well, I just ran what little code I've written through
the gofmt semicolon rinse and I like the results
19:00 < dho> yeah, like i said.  it's just people who don't like pink.
19:00 < skelterjohn> I like it better this way...  having them semi-optional
was weird
19:00 < skelterjohn> reminded me of pascal
19:02 < dho> heh
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19:41 < defectiv> do arrays/slices not implement basic iterators like each()
and each_with_index() and especially combinations() ??
19:41 < defectiv> trying to port a ruby program to go and it's painful.
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19:41 < skelterjohn> for index, value := range theArrayOrSlice { ...  }
19:42 < skelterjohn> Though I am not familiar with what you're talking about
in ruby, specifically.
19:44 < defectiv> yeah i've seen that syntax.
19:44 < defectiv> kinda lame compared to array.each(func(index, value))
19:45 < defectiv> but combination() is a very important function.  it does
combinatorial "n choose k"
19:45 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EyNU by [Adam Langley] in
go/src/pkg/crypto/tls/ -- crypto/tls: make Listener a pointer.
19:45 < skelterjohn> iterate through all k-sized tuples in the array?
19:45 < defectiv> or like array_of_ints.max and array_of_ints.min and such.
19:46 < defectiv> that's correct.
19:46 < skelterjohn> these all seem easy enough to implement a helper
function for
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19:46 < defectiv> you're saying i should write my own because the language
doesn't have this?
19:47 < skelterjohn> the go standard library is small because it's a new
language
19:47 < skelterjohn> it will grow
19:47 < defectiv> fair enough.
19:47 < skelterjohn> though i don't see those things as being part of a core
api, really.  perhaps one day someone will make a package for them
19:47 < defectiv> those seem to be pretty fundamental array functions.
19:48 < dho> write some wrappers, send a patch
19:48 < skelterjohn> are there libraries other than ruby's that has
combination?
19:48 < defectiv> i don't know.
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19:48 < dho> python will let you do similar things.
19:48 < skelterjohn> and for min, max...  that depends on the array elements
being comparable
19:48 < defectiv> of course.
19:48 < dho> but so will c, if you write it :)
19:49 < skelterjohn> so, not a function with an array as a receiver
19:49 < skelterjohn> maybe when some way of doing generics/templates comes
in, there will be a max(array) function
19:49 < defectiv> the issue is about how productive a language lets you be
out of the box.
19:49 < defectiv> there should be an array.max() function
19:49 < dho> I haven't had any issues with Go impeding me from being
productive.
19:49 < defectiv> lol.
19:50 < defectiv> dude, write a program in ruby.  then write it in go.  it
will take 4 times as long.
19:50 < skelterjohn> but there can't be an array.max() function, since not
all arrays have a max.
19:50 < dho> defectiv: and be 800 times as slow.
19:50 < defectiv> who cares?
19:50 < dho> I do.
19:50 < defectiv> performance is cheap.
19:50 < skelterjohn> people who want fast programs?
19:50 < defectiv> you're economics are wrong.
19:50 < skelterjohn> *boggle*
19:50 < dho> lol
19:50 < defectiv> performance is cheap.  development is expensive.
19:50 < defectiv> buying twice as much hardware costs nothing compared to
buying more programmers.
19:50 < skelterjohn> i guess if you are ruby's target demographic
19:50 < defectiv> that economy was passed years ago.
19:51 < dho> defectiv: Explain to me why I have a job then?
19:51 < jessta> defectiv: buying twice as much hardware doesn't always make
things faster
19:51 < defectiv> because your employer is stupid?  i don't know.
19:51 < skelterjohn> for my stuff, certainly, that economy has not been
passed
19:51 < skelterjohn> defectiv: you are under the impression that the only
stuff out there is the stuff you're interested in
19:52 < skelterjohn> the world of computers is big
19:52 < dho> Hm, we're stupid and we have the highest performance mail
server in the world.
19:52 < dho> Ok, that makes sense.
19:52 < defectiv> okay, describe your use case.
19:52 < dho> Thanks for that enlightenment.
19:52 * dho makes use of ignore list
19:52 < vegai> the ruby guys took "perfomance is cheap" to a rather sad
extreme, though ...
19:52 < defectiv> who cares about performance?
19:52 < skelterjohn> I'm a grad student who does machine learning research
19:52 < skelterjohn> things can take a long time if you aren't careful about
your algorithm design
19:52 < dho> In the case that you're not a troll: people who send a terabyte
of plain text email a day care about performance.
19:52 < defectiv> there are occasionally cases where performance really
matters, because your calculations can't be suficiently parallelized.  but they
are rare.
19:53 < Norgg> defectiv: Google, for one.
19:53 < vegai> defectiv: I work in a company whose one product is a web
application written in ruby
19:53 < vegai> defectiv: and oh boy do we care about ruby's horrible
performance in some cases
19:53 < defectiv> Norgg: i specifically cited the google model.  a case
where inefficiency is muliplied because of massive scaling.
19:53 < defectiv> then you probably suck at scaling.
19:53 < skelterjohn> anyway, saying "you're stupid because you think a
different subjective measure is important" is...stupid
19:54 < defectiv> well, that's not what i said.
19:54 < skelterjohn> you said that performance doesn't matter, only dev
speed
19:54 < vegai> defectiv: can you imagine actions that take more than a
second?  More than 10 seconds?  More than a minute?
19:54 < dho> defectiv: All I know is that our product would not be able to
handle 11 million messages an hour if it were written in ruby.
19:54 < defectiv> in the VAST MAJORITY of cases.
19:54 < vegai> defectiv: how would you scale these out?
19:54 < defectiv> not 100% of the time.
19:54 < jessta> defectiv: I've heard a lot of companies that started with
ruby regret it due to various scaling issues
19:54 < skelterjohn> in the vast majority of cases that you deal with
19:54 < defectiv> dho what makes you think that?
19:54 < dho> And who cares about it?  Every customer we have (and we have
big ones)
19:54 < vegai> jessta: yes, exactly
19:54 < dho> defectiv: the fact that it's a fact.
19:55 < defectiv> show me some processes that take that long in ruby.
please.
19:55 < defectiv> show me how they cannot be parallelized.
19:55 < vegai> defectiv: you seriously cannot imagine this?
19:55 < vegai> defectiv: then why am I talking to you still?
19:55 < defectiv> i didn't say that.
19:55 < defectiv> i'm just skeptical that your case is really what you think
it is.
19:56 < dagle> I think I can do a thing that will be extremly slow on ruby.
19:56 < jessta> defectiv: does ruby have real threads yet?
19:56 < defectiv> 1.9 does.
19:56 < dho> defectiv: I'm skeptical that you think a full-featured SMTP
server written in ruby can handle >10 million SMTP conversations in an hour.
19:56 < defectiv> why can't it?
19:56 < jessta> defectiv: good to hear
19:56 < defectiv> that's a perfect opportunity for scaling.
19:56 < skelterjohn> i think he is implying that ruby code is slow
19:57 < dho> Well, the fact that it doesn't have anywhere near the runtime
speed of C, for starters.
19:57 < defectiv> ruby is slow compared to compiled languages of course.
but an SMTP server is just doing a massively scaled bunch of SMALL processes.
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19:57 < defectiv> dho please explain how speed is relevant.
19:57 < vegai> http://xkcd.com/386/ :-P
19:57 < skelterjohn> defectiv: you are bizarre
19:57 < dho> defectiv: Do you understand how much email volume an ISP has?
19:57 < defectiv> volume is irrelevant.
19:58 < dho> Really?
19:58 < defectiv> dho yes.
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19:58 < defectiv> there is this thing called scaling.
19:58 < WalterMundt> dho: no, he just thinks it makes sense for an ISP to
use a datacenter full of machines to run their e-mail
19:58 < dagle> defectiv: It's extremly hard to prove a language like ruby.
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19:58 < vsmatck1> "when you're a hammer all problems look like nails"
19:58 < dho> Oh, I see.  Because we do hot-hot failover and make use of
thread pools and events in our software, we know nothing of scaling.
19:58 < WalterMundt> instead of, you know, writing a fast mail server and
saving thousands of dollars a day on power to not run all that ruby code
19:58 < dho> Clearly you know more about the problem space than we do.  Go
for it, you can make millions.
19:59 < dho> I suggest going to Facebook with the `volume is irrelevant'
argument
19:59 < dho> They'll love that
19:59 < defectiv> they use php.
19:59 < dho> For their mail server?  No.
19:59 < defectiv> i believe.  or mostly at least.
19:59 < skelterjohn> for rendering....
19:59 < dho> They use our product.
19:59 < dho> Because it cut down the amount of hardware they needed by over
90%
19:59 < dho> and I'd give you exact numbers if I was allowed to.
19:59 < vsmatck1> The facebook webserver is written in python IIRC.
19:59 < dagle> :)
20:00 < dho> But I'm not, but you'll have to take my word that it is an
order of magnitude.
20:00 < dho> When you are a large service provider, be it social network,
internet service provider, whatever, and you have literally tens of billions of
messages coming at you a day, you want them handled and you want them handled now.
20:01 < defectiv> dho that may be just the niche case where the economics
are in favor of faster code and more developer time.  you have a very narrow slice
of functionality ("doing email") that a team of good devs can write in a
reasonable time frame, even in a language like C or Go. and it does that same
operation SO MUCH that the savings on hardware make up for the greater cost of
developer time.
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20:01 < defectiv> that's a pretty rare model though.  for general purpose
programming, that model doesn't hold up at all.
20:02 < skelterjohn> for general purpose programming, the idea that you can
jsut throw more hardware at it is also not so relevant
20:02 < dho> That's only applicable if you consider a large scale service
provider a `niche' case.
20:02 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7E555.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts
20:02 < slashus2> And they use Erlang for their facebook chat thing with a
myriad of other functional languages for other systems.
20:02 < vsmatck1> I think the point is that this isn't the point.  There are
good email servers that already exist written in developer inefficient languages.
Use those.
20:02 < dho> In general computing, and by that I mean consumer computing,
you can never assume there's more hardware to throw at it.  Most people have 1
machine to run your software.
20:02 < defectiv> niche in that there is a very narrow problem space.
20:03 < WalterMundt> heh, Facebook is smart, they have Thrift and write
different bits of infrastructure in different languages depending on their needs
20:03 < dho> People who need speed get speed.  If your `general case' means
someone running a blog on their website, you're probably right in the assumption
that they don't need SuperFastAwesomeHTTPD
20:03 < dho> But that doesn't negate the fact that performance is critical.
20:03 < dho> Which was what you were asserting.
20:03 < vsmatck1> This is a stupid conversation.  I'm out.
20:03 < defectiv> sorry, i should have specified that i'm not really talking
about consumer computing.  although in general i think speed matters less in that
area, since the vast majority of applications don't have to be particularly
speedy, since most consumers have way too much processing power for their needs.
20:04 < jessta> vsmatck1: agreed
20:04 < dho> If you're talking about momandpopshop.com, the same applies.
20:04 < jessta> defectiv: my laptop runs at 600Mhz to save power
20:04 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined
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20:05 < defectiv> jessta: a) how often are most people away from a power
outlet when using their laptops?
20:05 < WalterMundt> defectiv: so you're talking about things that are
neither large service providers (or even hoping to become such without rewriting
their infrastructure) nor consumer-grade application software...
20:05 < jessta> defectiv: it's a laptop, that's kind of the point
20:05 < dho> jessta: you're apparently not the general use case of a laptop.
20:05 < defectiv> b) even 600mhz is fast enough that google maps probably is
"good enough", no?
20:06 < jessta> yeah, it's good enough
20:06 < vegai> there are plenty of problems for which ruby is too slow,
cannot we just leave it at that.  This is trivially true.
20:06 -!- tav [n=tav@89.243.205.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset
by peer)]
20:06 < defectiv> WalterMundt: i'm talking about the vast majority of web
sites/apps.
20:06 < skelterjohn> it's clear that defectiv will accept no rational
argument in favor of a language that can run code quickly.  sort of pointless to
try to convince him.
20:07 < defectiv> that have to scale, but don't scale to the extent that a
50% reduction in hardware requirements and power consumption would be worth the
salary of an employee or two.
20:07 -!- tav [n=tav@89.243.205.194] has joined #go-nuts
20:07 < dho> defectiv: Right, and the people who do need the speed have
seriously in-depth architectural designs that are scaled beyond just having more
hardware running the same thing.
20:07 < defectiv> uh, i _did_ accept that there are use cases where
performance trumps productivity.
20:07 < dho> Your initial argument did not provide that provision.  :P
20:08 < jessta> defectiv: but why write code just for the vast majority?
20:08 < slashus2> defectiv: There is the possibility that a programming
language will be able to run fast code and allow for quick development.  This is
what we are all shooting for.  Having a nice balance between them is optimal.
20:08 < skelterjohn> he was lamenting go's small standard library
20:08 < skelterjohn> which is valid
20:08 < skelterjohn> and temporary, hopefully
20:08 < dho> In any case, to get back to things like array.max(),
skelterjohn's point is also valid: there are plenty of arrays that don't have a
max.
20:08 -!- aho [n=nya@g228022036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit
["EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION"]
20:09 < defectiv> slashus2: and my problem with Go is that it seems,
ostensibly, to have that potential.  but then it seems to throw in some
not-very-useful complexity and then to lack a lot of things that just seem so
fundamental.
20:09 < jessta> such as?
20:09 < defectiv> here's an example.  i'm writing this election simulation
to see whether, with score voting, it helps or hurts candidates to be perceived as
"frontrunners".
20:09 < skelterjohn> I would be surprised if we never see a package/function
listStuff.Max(array of interfac{greaterThan(other) bool})
20:09 < skelterjohn> modulo syntax
20:09 < defectiv> i'll paste the ruby code somewhere.
20:10 < slashus2> That `may` be the case at this early stage, but I don't
think that is any reason to give up or to think that it is futile to work toward
an even more useful language.
20:10 < dho> (Yes, do keep in mind you're dealing with a language that has
been publically available for just about a month and a half)
20:11 < dho> Ruby's interfaces have matured for over a decade.
20:11 -!- gracchus1
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20:11 < dho> (That's not to say that Go will ever contain any similar
functionality in respects that you desire, but it is food for thought.)
20:11 < defectiv> okay, here's one thing about Go that has driven me a bit
bonkers.  why can't i define methods on e.g.  int or string?
20:12 < dho> They are not objects.
20:12 < defectiv> well, so what?
20:12 < defectiv> or, alternatively, why not?
20:12 < dho> Because Go isn't an OO language?
20:12 < skelterjohn> you can, in your own package
20:12 < skelterjohn> type MyString string
20:12 < defectiv> in ruby i could type "puts [1, 4, 7].max" and get 7.  so
freakin simple.
20:12 < skelterjohn> func (s *MyString) foo() {...}
20:13 < dho> func (m *MyString) foo() {}
20:13 < dho> hah
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20:13 < defectiv> that doesn't work.
20:13 < skelterjohn> i disagree?
20:13 < dho> No? It works great for me.
20:13 < skelterjohn> maybe you aren't doing something quite right.  the
tutorials need work too.
20:13 < defectiv> i can't then say "print("hello".to_upper_case())"
20:14 < skelterjohn> that's because "hello" is a string
20:14 < skelterjohn> not a MyString
20:14 < defectiv> i can say MyString("hello").to_upper_case()
20:14 < skelterjohn> yep
20:14 < defectiv> exactly!
20:14 < skelterjohn> one of the commandments of this language: always
explicit
20:14 < dho> What you propose would slow go down considerably, would bloat
binaries, and complicate the runtime.
20:14 < dho> I don't think the gain is worth the pain.
20:14 < dho> And I think most would agree.
20:15 < defectiv> you don't think that functionality could be added
efficiently?
20:15 < maikeru|> It's not much functionality you're adding, if any.
20:15 < defectiv> it's huge.
20:15 < dho> No, because then you get a bikeshed about which operations
string type gets
20:15 < skelterjohn> defectiv: how is the language to know what kind of
"hello" you mean?
20:15 < defectiv> when i wrote this program in ruby, it took so little time.
i could just crank it out.  everything just worked.
20:15 < skelterjohn> what if you have "type A string \n type B string"
20:15 < maikeru|> skelterjohn: Exactly.
20:15 < skelterjohn> and both have a version of to_upper_case
20:15 < defectiv> "hello" is a string.
20:16 < skelterjohn> how will the language know which to use?  you have to
tell it explicitly
20:16 < skelterjohn> that's the point
20:16 < skelterjohn> some languages have implicit ways to do this
20:16 < skelterjohn> they get confusing
20:16 < maikeru|> Besides, telling it explicitly is clearer to the other
programmers, I'd think.
20:16 < skelterjohn> go decided to draw the line early
20:16 < defectiv> it would do the version for the right type.
20:16 < skelterjohn> "right type"...
20:16 < defectiv> yes.
20:16 < defectiv> "hello" is not of type A or B
20:16 < skelterjohn> how would a person, even, know which one was right if
there were two that fit
20:17 < maikeru|> defectiv: And who's to say which is the right type?
20:17 < dho> ok, so say that you pass a type A down an interface{}
20:17 < skelterjohn> well, if it's just a string, then there is no
to_upper_case() method
20:17 < defectiv> some_word := A("hello")
20:17 < dho> It looks like an A.
20:17 < dho> But it looks like a B
20:17 < dho> but it looks like a string.
20:17 < defectiv> skelterjohn: yes, that is my complaint!
20:17 < skelterjohn> there are some string helpers in the strings package
20:18 < defectiv> i can't say func (word string) to_upper_case() string {}
20:18 < dho> So now communications channels need to push down additional
information
20:18 < skelterjohn> defectiv: of course not - your code doesn't own string
20:18 < defectiv> but they require you to say e.g.  to_upper_case("some
string")
20:18 < skelterjohn> painful, i realize
20:18 < defectiv> who cares whether it owns it?  why not at least let it add
methods within its own scope??
20:18 < dho> I find that much more clear reading than "string".toupper()
20:18 < defectiv> and not affect other packages.
20:18 < defectiv> what?!
20:19 < dho> defectiv: My background is C.
20:19 < skelterjohn> defectiv: then you have a different type.  for
isntance, that type would implement an interface wtih the to_upper_case method.
if you tried to pass that string to another function in another package
20:19 < skelterjohn> then that package wouldn't know about your special code
20:19 < skelterjohn> and thigns would explode
20:19 < skelterjohn> bottom line: can't modify types that aren't yours
20:19 < defectiv> when a method is part of the class, it's like namespacing.
it keeps it clear what functions you have.  you don't have these "floating"
functions.  you can even say String.instance_methods and get all the instance
methods that are defined.
20:20 < dho> where is my goddamn tow truck
20:20 < dho> defectiv: so you're proposing that Go become an OO language.
20:20 < dho> I don't think you'll get that.
20:20 < dho> It's easy enough to implement OO concepts in Go
20:20 < defectiv> it IS an OO language according to what's his face in the
Go talk at Google.
20:21 < dho> Sorry, you're proposing that native processor types become
objects
20:21 < defectiv> it doesn't do inheritance, but its interfaces provide a
similar type of functionality, and you have structs with methods.  it behaves in
an OO way.
20:21 < dho> I suppose you want integer.add(2) as well?
20:21 < maikeru|> dho: Ooh, can we have that?  Please?
20:21 < defectiv> of course.
20:21 < dho> How is that better than integer += 2
20:21 < defectiv> well, in ruby "4 + 5" is the same as 4.+(5)
20:22 < dho> I think you want Perl.
20:22 <+iant> one problem with permitting programs to define methods on
basic types is that it means that a single type won't have the same method set in
all packages, which makes runtime interface conversion complex
20:22 < defectiv> i hate perl.
20:22 < skelterjohn> iant: yeah i mentioned that
20:22 <+iant> sorry, missed it
20:22 < defectiv> iant well that was comparitively illuminating.
20:22 < skelterjohn> so did he
20:22 < dho> defectiv: if you're happy with ruby, why not use ruby?
20:22 < defectiv> i do.
20:23 < defectiv> i'm having a philsophical discussion about Go.
20:23 < dho> Ok, so why are you trying to turn $otherlanguage into ruby?
20:23 < defectiv> well, i'd like to see it do SOME things more like ruby.
20:23 < dho> philosophically, Go is not Ruby and does not desire to be
20:23 < defectiv> in general, i like Go a lot.  it is conceptually very
interesting.
20:23 < skelterjohn> dho: i don't think that is the tack to take.  i think
that rather than saying "go is go, if you don't like it, don't use it", we should
say "go is go.  you can do lots of cool things in go, maybe you should use it"
20:23 < defectiv> it just seems to have a few rough edges.
20:24 < dho> skelterjohn: Sure, but when you've exhausted how you would do
similar things in Go and that's not good enough, the answer is use what you like
20:24 < skelterjohn> i think we started out exhausted from the previous
argument
20:24 < defectiv> check out this program i wrote in ruby that i'm trying to
port to Go. http://pastie.org/759208
20:24 < skelterjohn> :)
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20:25 < defectiv> here i make a "two-dimensional array" of the voters'
utilities for the set of candidates.  => ballots = (0...NUM_VOTERS).to_a.map
{(0...NUM_CANDIDATES).to_a.map {rand}}
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20:25 < skelterjohn> i don't know what the second half of that meant
20:25 -!- yaroslav [n=yaroslav@ppp83-237-190-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined
#go-nuts
20:25 < dho> I think it randomly distributes a list of candidates to a map.
20:25 * maikeru| wonders if he's too picky to want to go make those equal signs
line up at the top of that ruby code
20:26 < skelterjohn> oh, i think i get it
20:26 < Norgg> dho: map is a method on an array that does something to each
element of it and returns a new array.
20:26 < skelterjohn> map as the list operation, not the datastructure
20:26 < defectiv> i'm just making a list of random numbers
20:27 < dho> oh, right.
20:27 < defectiv> in Go i'm iterating through an outer then an inner loop
and then doing this => utilities[voter_index][candidate_index] = rand.Int();
20:27 < Norgg> foo[NUM_VOTERS][NUM_CANDIDATES] filled with rand.
20:27 < defectiv> yeah.
20:27 < defectiv> it just feels so verbose.
20:28 < dho> Aha, but you wouldn't have to explain what you're trying to do
for 5 minutes like you just did ;)
20:28 < defectiv> i wrote an "iterate" function where i pass it a number and
a function and it runs n times, passing the current index as the only parameter to
that function.
20:28 < Norgg> dho: It's fairly clean if you know ruby.
20:29 < defectiv> to rubyists, i think that line is pretty clear.  i do see
some ruby code at my job (zendesk.com, a rails help desk application) that is
pretty obfuscated.
20:29 < dho> I'd probably have grokked it if it were python, to be fair.
20:29 < Norgg> Should be on more than one line ideally.
20:29 < skelterjohn> [[rand() for n in range(cols)] for m in range(rows)]
20:29 < defectiv> i went to KU, in the home of the Lawerence Journal-World
where Django was born.
20:29 < dho> i've done some work in django
20:29 < skelterjohn> no idea what django is
20:30 < dho> web app framework
20:30 < dho> like ror for python
20:30 < skelterjohn> heh
20:30 < skelterjohn> no idea what ror is :)
20:30 < maikeru|> I'm mixed on my feelings for Django.  I go through
love/hate cycles with it sometimes.
20:30 < maikeru|> skelterjohn: ruby on rails
20:30 < defectiv> Ruby on Rails buddy.
20:30 < skelterjohn> leave me to my monte-carlo sampling!
20:30 < defectiv> :)
20:30 < defectiv> i love monte-carlo stuff.
20:30 < defectiv> i'm obsessed with election methods.
20:31 < defectiv> the idea of this simulation is to determine whether, with
score voting, there is the same incentive for a candidate to be perceived as
"electable" like there is with our normal vote-for-one system.
20:31 < skelterjohn> don't know much about that.  most of the stuff i do
these days involves MCMC (markov chain monte-carlo), a way to do approximate
inference
20:31 < dho> so, basically you don't want to write two loops to assign a
variable value to an array
20:31 < defectiv> dho that's what i did.
20:31 < dho> right, that's what you have a problem with
20:31 < defectiv> like iterate(NUM_VOTERS, func(voter_index int){
20:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EBtw by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/parser/ -- simplify some code that is using vectors
20:31 < dho> (for example)
20:32 < defectiv> here's what i think would be a nice compromise.
20:32 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has quit
["leaving"]
20:32 < dho> as an aside, how to i turn on touchpad clicking on this silly
macbook
20:32 < skelterjohn> tap clicking
20:32 < dho> someone in here must know; mouse and keyboard under the system
settings thing doesn't have anything for the mouse
20:32 < skelterjohn> or press it in clicking
20:32 < skelterjohn> <- macbook
20:33 < defectiv> i wish Go would include some basic iterators, so i could
do e.g.  20.times(some_function(index int))
20:33 < skelterjohn> trackpad prefs, dho?
20:33 < dho> oh, there's a hidden trackpad menu item
20:33 < maikeru|> dho: lemme reboot my mbp to os x and find out.
20:33 < dho> maikeru|: no need
20:33 < maikeru|> Should be...ah, nevermind.
20:33 < dho> skelterjohn: yes, it was hidden right next to `keyboard &
mouse'
20:33 < skelterjohn> :)
20:34 < defectiv> okay, so to address my current stumbling block.  anyone
know a good way to do max and min on an array of ints?
20:34 < defectiv> without writing my own functions..
20:34 < dho> reverse qsort and take the first value?
20:34 < defectiv> also need to have combinatorials, like "n choose k"
20:34 < defectiv> oh, yeah..
20:34 < skelterjohn> comb.  is def not in there
20:34 < defectiv> tears
20:34 < skelterjohn> um.  qsort is not the best way to do that.
20:34 < skelterjohn> though...defectiv doesn't care about performance :)
20:35 <+iant> it's hard to write those functions in Go today because there
are no generics; this is a known shortcoming that I hope will be addressed
20:35 < defectiv> lol.
20:35 < dho> skelterjohn: :)
20:35 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the
connection]
20:35 * dho now has kitty kat
20:35 * dho cannot see responses
20:35 < vegai> reverse sort and [0] will probably be faster than ruby's
Int::max, right?  :P
20:35 < dho> kitty kat comes with butt-in-face extension
20:35 < defectiv> any of you folks used D at all?  i was learning it a bit
before Go came out, but i figure there's no point learning it since it will never
have the backing that Go will have due to its support by Google.
20:36 < dho> well it is commercially backed.
20:36 < dho> but that's about the extent of my knowledge
20:36 < defectiv> it's Array::max
20:36 < dho> other than digital mars threatening sun for using the name D
for its DTrace language
20:36 < skelterjohn> so, defectiv, there are two ways to implement a general
max function
20:36 < skelterjohn> one is to use an interface with a compare() method
20:37 < skelterjohn> one is to wait for generics/templates
20:37 < skelterjohn> the first way, i think, would involve changing your
array to an array of this sort of interface
20:37 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined #go-nuts
20:37 < skelterjohn> which is "free", according to a theoretical computer
scientist
20:37 < defectiv> so if i write a compare() method, then sort() can use it?
20:38 < skelterjohn> since it will take no longer than max
20:38 < skelterjohn> defectiv: i don't know what interface sort() takes,
it's in the docs somewhere
20:38 < defectiv> ah, i get it.
20:38 < defectiv> yeah i have it right here...
20:38 < defectiv> thx
20:38 < dho> skelterjohn: how's that different than what i suggested?  :P
20:38 < skelterjohn> i forgot what you...  of qsort
20:38 < skelterjohn> qsort is log-linear
20:39 < skelterjohn> which is not the same thing, according to a theoretical
computer scientist :)
20:39 < skelterjohn> or anyone else, for that matter
20:40 < skelterjohn> well, it's the same according to a mathematician
20:40 < skelterjohn> they generally ask "is it possible?" and stop there.
20:40 < dho> ok.  s/q//
20:40 < skelterjohn> sort is no faster...
20:40 < dho> it's precisely what you just suggested!
20:41 < skelterjohn> did not!
20:41 < skelterjohn> i left a blank.  someone else filled it in with "sort"
20:42 < defectiv> oooh...who wants to make a Go program to implement David
Chaum's anonymous digital currency?  that would be neat.
20:42 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@scorpion.mps.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the
connection]
20:43 < skelterjohn> not familiar with that
20:44 < dho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_money i guess
20:47 * dho is about to call progressive with a big wtf
20:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5ECgm by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- fix
dumb bug: must write out default values inside arrays and slices
20:51 < maikeru|> grm
20:51 < dho> bl
20:51 < maikeru|> due to the nature of this, this client is having me do
this part of the programming on the live machine
20:51 < maikeru|> I'm always uncomfortable with that.
20:52 < dho> heh
20:52 < WalterMundt> that can be nerve-wracking
20:52 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read
error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:52 < dho> heh
20:52 < dho> `NYC trading firm hiring sysadmins with functional prog.
experience'
20:53 < skelterjohn> i feel like they meant "practical" instead of
"functional"
20:53 < Gracenotes> where they will proceed to not use said experience?
20:53 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined
#go-nuts
20:53 < WalterMundt> do the wrong thing, and the live code is broken and/or
live data is nuked...I really don't like to be in that spot
20:53 < skelterjohn> but who knows
20:53 < Gracenotes> us functional programming fanatics do tend to know what
we're doing, though
20:53 < dho> skelterjohn: nope, they're looking for sysadmins who do OCaml
20:53 < kfx> 'we'
20:54 < skelterjohn> i can never bring myself to try OCaml, just because of
the name really
20:54 < WalterMundt> I keep thinking that I ought to take a look at some
more of the newer functional languages sometime
20:54 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit ["ZNC
- http://znc.sourceforge.net"]
20:54 < dho> i keep trying to learn haskell and ocaml.  i get about 3
chapters in before i realize that it's kind of like me learning dvorak
20:55 < dho> fun in theory but a pain in the ass in practice.
20:55 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined
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20:55 < WalterMundt> I feel like functional languages exercise a part of my
brain that needs to be in better shape
20:55 < dho> heh
20:56 < dho> `now, to understand how this works, you'll need to have had a
strong background in calculus and discrete math'
20:56 < dho> *huge mathematically backed example*
20:56 < dho> `and *THATS* how you print to the screen'
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20:56 < skelterjohn> i'm fine with that :)
20:56 < Gracenotes> 'main = putStrLn "hello world"'
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20:58 < dho> i'm clearly being facetious
20:58 < dho> but only mildly so :)
20:58 < maikeru|> WalterMundt: Well, that revision did not delete any client
data.  So I think that's a good sign so far :)
20:59 < Gracenotes> functional graph reduction is pretty intuitive
20:59 < Gracenotes> well, about as intuitive as OOP inheritance patterns
once you're exposed to it for a bit
20:59 < dho> it requires a style of thinking and problem-solving i do not
possess
21:00 < skelterjohn> i thought that, i think it was rob pike, said it well
in the go video - when you have inheritance you tend to spend most of your time
designing inheritance trees
21:00 < skelterjohn> that struck home to me
21:00 < dho> I feel like with procedural programs, I tell it how to do a
solution
21:00 < WalterMundt> I'm reading ejabberd code right now.  the
functional/FSM server model is kind of interesting
21:00 < dho> and with functional languages, it's like i'm specifying how a
solution would manifest
21:00 < dho> sounds subtly different in words, but i just don't think that
way
21:00 < Gracenotes> dho: the simplest way I tend to describe it: with
functional programming, you're not running procedures.  you're combining
expressions.
21:01 < dho> yes, i've read / heard that before
21:01 < skelterjohn> i like'd dho's explanation better
21:01 < skelterjohn> it's how i think of it, too
21:01 < Gracenotes> it makes the flow of data a lot more clear, too.
21:01 < dho> except maybe s/how to do a solution/how to solve a problem/
21:01 < skelterjohn> in functional programming (and my functional experience
is limited to scheme), i just tell it what the solution is
21:01 < WalterMundt> I feel almost equally at home in either camp, which I
suppose is why I like languages that let you mix idioms
21:02 < dho> that and the functional purists scare me
21:02 < Gracenotes> dho: complicated inheritance trees is one of the points
of OOP
21:02 < Gracenotes> I do not like
21:02 < Gracenotes> and that was more @ skelterjohn, re.  rob pike
21:02 < Gracenotes> the reason it exists is because dynamic dispatch in
these languages is so limited
21:02 < skelterjohn> i TA'd for a class "software methodology" where we did
OO design in java
21:02 < WalterMundt> I've rarely seen an inheritance tree that made the flow
of data in a program clearer; most often it's the opposite
21:03 < skelterjohn> and twisting some models to fit the single inheritance
idiom was tricky sometimes
21:03 < Gracenotes> that, combined with the sometimes contradictory need to
reuse code, can result in some messed-up trees
21:03 < Gracenotes> IS-A is a strong relationship, much stronger than
uses-same-code-as.
21:04 < dho> I'll put it another way
21:04 < dho> Functional languages are why I end up sounding like a douchebag
when people tell me I'm really smart.  I say `I guess.'
21:05 < skelterjohn> fun things to do on the internet: brag about people
telling you you're smart =p
21:05 < defectiv> is google (or any of you) using Go "professionally"?
21:05 < dho> Yeah, you sound like a douchebag either way
21:05 < defectiv> skelterjohn: lols
21:05 < skelterjohn> defectiv: Go isn't ready for it, in my opinion
21:05 < dho> Though that's also probably partially due to the environment I
keep myself in.
21:05 < skelterjohn> there are memory issues
21:05 < defectiv> it's so funny you mention that, cause my mom just told me
how smart i am.
21:05 < WalterMundt> *facepalm*
21:05 < defectiv> also, matt gonzalez just emailed me about having lunch in
his law firm soon.  good times.
21:05 < Gracenotes> well, it tickles my brain.  plus it gives me an excuse
to learn about discrete math.
21:06 < dho> it's so funny that you mention that, cause your mom just....
nevermind.
21:06 < Gracenotes> I just have an unhealthy attraction to theory :(
21:06 < dho> (sorry, had to)
21:06 < defectiv> dho nice
21:06 < skelterjohn> defectiv: for instance, if you have a one-off goroutine
that just pumps values into a channel in an infinite loop, it will never get
cleaned up (even if that channel is forgotten about everywhere else)
21:06 < defectiv> theory is more fun than practical stuff.
21:06 < skelterjohn> this is relevant for things like Vector.Iter()
21:06 < defectiv> huh?
21:06 < dho> Anyway, back on what I was saying.  Since I've had no
scholastic experience with anything outside of high school, I've pretty much kept
myself in the company of people who are worlds smarter than I am
21:07 < dho> and ever will be
21:07 < skelterjohn> so, Vector.Iter() pumps all the values it has into a
channel
21:07 < skelterjohn> if another thread calls Vector.Iter() and reads some,
but not all, of those values, the spawned goroutine will never be cleaned up
21:07 < defectiv> dho that's hard sometimes.  like this dude i know who
worked at intel and now google, that i studied computer engineering with.  he just
always made me feel so inferior.
21:07 < dho> Well, I do it because I have to learn shit somehow
21:07 < defectiv> he could recite maxwell's equations a year after taknig
electromag with me.  wtf.
21:08 < dho> and again, not to be douchebaggy, but if i hadn't, there'd be
no way that i'd be making the salary i do now
21:08 < skelterjohn> well that's useful.
21:08 < defectiv> it's like, how can your brain do these things that my
brain cannot?  i hate you...  and want you to die.
21:08 < Gracenotes> a good system for parametric polymorphism prevents your
language from becoming a static typing system implemented on top of a dynamic
typing system implemented on top of another static typing system
21:08 < dho> It's humbling at times
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21:08 < Gracenotes> make it so, Go :|
21:08 < dho> But also causes me to perhaps undervalue myself.
21:08 < dho> Which is a pain in the ass at times
21:08 < defectiv> Gracenotes English
21:09 < dho> It's hard to objectively know how good you are if you know a
ton of people who are that much more experienced / capable
21:09 < defectiv> does Go do that?  does C++?
21:09 < skelterjohn> what are you referring to
21:09 < Gracenotes> Go has a static typing system.  weird interface{} hacks
are used.  It is converted at some point back.  in all this type safety is ensured
in individual conversions...  but not the entire operation.
21:10 < skelterjohn> oh
21:10 < taruti> Gracenotes: interface{} is mostly needed because the current
lack of generics.
21:10 < Gracenotes> yes, as I said.  "good system for parametric
polymorphism prevents your language from becoming [...]"
21:10 < taruti> and in some places to mean "anything that reflection will
grok"
21:10 < dho> So, as an aside, if generics come in, what's the use case for
interface{}
21:11 < skelterjohn> unless generics are defined with functions, then...
21:11 < taruti> dho: things wanting to use refletion.
21:11 < skelterjohn> the same use they already have
21:11 < taruti> dho: e.g.  enc/binary, gob, ...
21:11 < skelterjohn> ah, i get it now
21:12 < skelterjohn> maybe i will come back with a more appropriate response
21:12 < Gracenotes> dho: well.  Implementing an open union types, since Go
doesn't even have a finite union type (tagged union).
21:12 < skelterjohn> no guarantees
21:12 < Gracenotes> that might be a use for interface{}
21:12 < taruti> Gracenotes: that is being fixed.
21:13 < Gracenotes> yes, that would be nice.  parametrically polymorphic
unions would be very awesome too.  I just like Hindley-Milner a bit, you know,
sort of a flaw of mine >_>
21:13 < skelterjohn> what Gracenotes said.  i can add two things to a list
that are both compare()-able and then sort it.  with generics its likely that
they'd have to be the same exact type
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21:14 < taruti>
http://code.google.com/p/go/source/browse/doc/devel/roadmap.html
21:14 < skelterjohn> http://golang.org/doc/devel/roadmap.html =p
21:15 < dho> it's been changed since then
21:15 < skelterjohn> oh
21:15 < skelterjohn> fine.
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21:15 < taruti> the website roadmap is out-of-date
21:15 < Gracenotes> ah, so they've removed exceptions as an active topic of
discussion?  oh, or added it.
21:15 < skelterjohn> http://localhost:6060/doc/devel/roadmap.html :)
21:16 < skelterjohn> "Exceptions.  An active topic of discussion."
21:16 < Gracenotes> hrm
21:16 < dho> heh.
21:16 < dho> in #plan9: 16:18 < binary> newsham: I'm not looking at
glenda's private things.
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21:17 < taruti> skelterjohn:
http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?spec=svn44763425d6a5b3404535c2f0d37413f66dcbde53&r=b9e2538b899dada32e6cbb28437fd46d52955e24
21:17 < skelterjohn> C++: where only your friends can touch your privates?
21:17 < dagle> The things I really like in functional langs: tools for
proving and pattern matching.
21:17 < kfx> it's just as well, skelterjohn: that's where the bugs are
21:18 < Gracenotes> mm.  finite union without pattern matching, eh.  And you
know, we already do have switch statements.
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21:19 < skelterjohn> once in highschool, in a C++ course, the teacher was
gone for the day.  so the sub had us explaining the material up front instead of
lecture.  of course, i started out with my "pubic" member variables...
21:19 < skelterjohn> which would have been funny to me if it had been on
purpose
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21:19 < skelterjohn> and was funny to everyone else as a matter of course
21:19 < maikeru|> *shudders at the memory of highschool C++ course*
21:20 < Gracenotes> it's not the same when you're not evaluating to WHNF,
you know ;_; */me shaddups*
21:20 < dagle> Gracenotes: Pretty close but not the same.
21:20 < skelterjohn> WHNF?  something something normal form?
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21:21 < dho> heh, c++ in high school
21:22 < maikeru|> I had to hold my tongue so many times from correcting the
instructor.  It's not as if I'm a C++ master or anything, but there were basic
things he could not even comprehend.
21:22 < dagle> c++ the lang that can make anybody hate programming.
21:22 < skelterjohn> my teacher was completely competent
21:22 < skelterjohn> so that wasn't an issue
21:22 < dho> possibly related: anybody know of graduate degree programs in
cs for people without bachelors, no desire for gen.  ed.  courses, and a
professional schedule?
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21:22 < maikeru|> skelterjohn: Ah. I'd not have minded if that were the
case.
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21:23 < skelterjohn> dho: rare to have a graduate program that doesn't
require a BS. but i bet if you took the CS subject exam and did well, and talked
to people in the dep, you could convince them
21:23 < dho> i'd probably do poorly
21:24 < skelterjohn> it's harder this way, but at the end of the day it's a
room full of humans that decide who gets in
21:24 < Gracenotes> weak head normal form..  evaluating to find the first
data constructor.  possibly more, if it's more efficient and provably correct.
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21:24 < maikeru|> hrm, schooling.  that reminds me, I need to finish the
essays for my college apps by thursday
21:24 < dho> though i must admit: i have no idea what higher education cs
courses leave you with after your senior year
21:24 < skelterjohn> dho: you have to convince them somehow that you would
be able to perform in the courses.  beyond that, they just want your money (for a
master's)
21:25 < dho> if i got a masters, i'm sure i could do phd from there
21:25 * dho wants to teach
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21:25 < skelterjohn> dho: your best bet would probably be just to do the
undergrad :) i don't see a reasonable path to that goal, otherwise
21:26 < skelterjohn> though you might not consider undergrad a reasonable
path either
21:26 < dho> i wouldn't be able to complete it.
21:26 < dho> that would be 4+ years of boring
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21:27 < skelterjohn> maybe you could audit some of the upper level CS
courses at your local uni.  then take the CS subject GRE
21:27 < skelterjohn> then apply for master's
21:28 < WalterMundt> huh, I didn
21:28 < WalterMundt> didn't even know that was possible
21:28 < dagle> dho: You do a lecture if you come to sweden.  You will even
get paid.  But you will have to pay for the trip.  :(
21:28 < dho> i bet peter froelich would have some ideas
21:28 < dho> he's local
21:28 < dho>
http://www.sci.kuniv.edu.kw/graduate/msc-computer-science/comprehensive-entry-exam-samples
<- ridiculous
21:29 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: anyone can apply.  some things make it
harder, but like i said before it's a room full of people that decide whom to
admit, and if you can convince them somehow, that's what you need
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21:29 < dho> well, questions 1-3 anyway
21:30 < skelterjohn> you just lack vocabulary
21:30 < skelterjohn> if you audit some upper level courses that stuff would
be clearer
21:30 < dho> i lack mathematical background as well
21:30 < skelterjohn> that's also covered in upper level CS
21:31 < skelterjohn> what kind of stuff are you interested for a masters?
21:31 < dagle> dho: 2006 exam?
21:31 < dho> dagle: yeah
21:31 < dho> skelterjohn: don't really care about a masters, that won't get
me into teaching at any respectable school
21:31 < dho> skelterjohn: i just see it as a means to a phd
21:31 < skelterjohn> also, any general CS exam is going to be really hard to
score perfectly on.  CS is a very wide discipline
21:32 < dagle> dho: What about them?  They are kinda schoolbook examples.
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21:32 < skelterjohn> dho: i mean, what topic are you interested in?
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21:32 < dho> OS/network mostly
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21:32 < dho> My last 2 jobs have been freebsd kernel hacking and
high-performance smtp server hacking
21:33 < dho> at my last job we had masters level students come in and they
really didn't have much clue as to practical development
21:33 < dho> so i get torn on the subject entirely.
21:33 < skelterjohn> most schools don't teach practical dev.  at all.
21:33 < dho> college kids need to learn that stuff.
21:34 < skelterjohn> computer science and software engineering overlap, but
are not the same thing
21:34 < maikeru|> What is the difference?  I've been a bit confused on that.
21:34 < skelterjohn> i learned to program before college.  i learned only a
tiny bit in college
21:34 < skelterjohn> the difference?  for instance, i do machine learning.
it's mostly math.
21:34 < dho> maikeru|: software engineering is more about process and
application while CS is more about theory
21:34 < skelterjohn> but to do anything useful with this math, i need to be
able to write good software
21:34 < dho> and CS is broad
21:34 < maikeru|> dho: Ah, okay.
21:34 < dho> while sweng is a facet of CS
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21:35 < dho> sort of
21:35 < skelterjohn> it certainly is.
21:35 < skelterjohn> but you can be a good computer scientist without
knowing much about writing good software
21:35 < skelterjohn> and vice versa
21:35 < dho> unfortunately.
21:36 < dho> In all my professional experience, the best people have been in
the middle of that.
21:36 < dho> reasonably good computer scientists, reasonably good software
developers
21:36 < dho> (of course, my experience is as a software engineer)
21:36 < skelterjohn> i'm a much better programmer than a mathematician
21:36 < skelterjohn> started to really get into the math stuff only in grad
school
21:36 < Gracenotes> funny thing about mathematicians being programmers,
too...
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21:36 < jessta> the problem is that doing CS is expected of programmings,
but that's mostly due to the fact that CS used to be the only computing degree
21:37 < skelterjohn> as such, i will never be a professor :)
21:37 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: interesting.  I dropped out of college to
take a job.  Someday I might be interested in graduate-level classes.  I'm
perfectly capable of picking up most undergrad-level stuff on my own, and would
generally rather read a textbook than listen to lectures, anyway.
21:37 < jessta> *programmers
21:37 < dho> Anyway, my desire is really to make a course for kids who will
end up writing code for a living
21:37 < dho> i say kids; i'm 26
21:37 < dho> so
21:37 < jessta> so people who want to be software engineers do CS and are
useless at software engineering
21:38 < dho> jessta: right; that's sort of the problem i want to address
21:38 < skelterjohn> jessta: good programmers started early
21:38 < WalterMundt> jessta: it's a real problem.  ACM ICPC saved me from
that to a degree, but that's not a path for everyone
21:38 < skelterjohn> and studied on their own
21:38 < skelterjohn> rarely does a set of courses make someone into a good
programmer
21:38 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: that's the question though
21:38 < vsmatck1> There was a good article on this subject recently by
Stroustrup.
http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/1/55760-what-should-we-teach-new-software-developers-why/fulltext
21:39 < jessta> I specifically did CS because I like CS, but my CS degree
contained way too much software engineering
21:39 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: can we do better than CS courses at that,
for people who weren't writing C in middle school?
21:39 < dho> skelterjohn: A set of courses should be able to prepare someone
for that.
21:39 < jessta> for the same reason as above
21:39 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: I think teaching people C in middle school
should be the norm :)
21:39 < vsmatck1> He's kind-of unique in that he was a software engineer for
a long time before becoming a professor.  He also teaches intro programming
classes.
21:39 < dho> I didn't start with C until I was around 21, and then not
professionally until I was 23 or so.
21:39 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: ooh, I like the way you think
21:39 < skelterjohn> dho: any experience before that?  if not, then you are
exceptional
21:40 < dho> maybe 19 or 20
21:40 < skelterjohn> in my opinion
21:40 < jessta> for some reason employers to employ programmers who have a
software engineering degree that is called "computer science"
21:40 < dho> I did qbasiclol when I was 11/12
21:40 < Gracenotes> you and me both, dho :o
21:40 < skelterjohn> any early programming helps
21:40 < skelterjohn> my first programming language was hypertalk (we had a
mac)
21:40 < dho> from that, it was html, minor MINOR dabblings in perl at 16,
and then PHP when I turned 17
21:40 < dagle> I would say CS course are what you make the to.  If you don't
want to learn anything you can pass the course with out it.  But if you want to
learn stuff it's a great way of doing so.
21:40 < vsmatck1> At my school they wanted everyone to do their own work so
they forbid working on programs in teams *facepalm*.
21:40 < jessta> dho: same here
21:40 < dho> oh, yeah, and i dicked around with object logo when i was
<10 though i remember none of it
21:41 < WalterMundt> I started with pascal and then went to basic/C and then
bash/C++ and later Java/etc.
21:41 < skelterjohn> logo was fun
21:41 < dho> it helped that wrox press was in such shambles that i got to
coauthor a couple books on php
21:41 < jessta> qbasic at around 10 and php 16-17, then C
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21:41 < dho> jessta: I guess you're also around my age then?
21:41 < dagle> torbo pascal around 11.  :D
21:42 < skelterjohn> i think that the #go-nuts irc chan might overrepresent
those who started coding when young
21:42 < WalterMundt> dagle: same here, oh man
21:42 < jessta> dho: currently 24
21:42 < dho> so, similar.
21:42 < dho> skelterjohn: likely.
21:42 < WalterMundt> just a tad
21:42 < skelterjohn> i wonder if i'm the oldest one talking now...28 heh
21:42 * WalterMundt is also 28
21:42 < jessta> got a few months left on my CS degree
21:42 < dho> skelterjohn: But it doesn't change that kids coming out of
college are still grossly unable to perform professionally
21:42 < maikeru|> Grm, guess I'm on the younger side.  18.
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21:43 < dho> i went to work straight out of high school
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21:43 < skelterjohn> sucks.  dorm life is a blast ;)
21:43 < dho> i'll be on my decade in a few months
21:43 < dho> skelterjohn: nah, i moved to holland when i was 18, i didn't
miss anything
21:43 < dagle> We need to get ken to this channel so we all can feel young
again.  XD
21:43 < skelterjohn> well, i don't know what holland is like
21:43 < dho> heh.
21:44 < skelterjohn> but freshman dorms are 24/7 parties
21:44 < WalterMundt> not mine
21:44 < dho> that would definitely not have been good for me
21:44 < skelterjohn> i don't think i'd survive in that situation any more
21:44 < skelterjohn> it wasn't particularly good for me either
21:44 < skelterjohn> but it was fun
21:44 < WalterMundt> it was full of cs and comp eng majors, everyone was
playing FPS's in their rooms or watching pirated anime on their computers
21:44 < skelterjohn> <- state school
21:45 < dho> There's got to be a way for self-taught individuals with
massive amounts of practical experience to enter college without having to re-take
english and history courses
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21:45 < dho> I'm a published author, I shouldn't need english :(
21:45 < dho> (says he who did not capitalize English)
21:45 < skelterjohn> not if you wanta bachelor's degree.  a BS means
something, and it includes english and history etc
21:45 < skelterjohn> but you could get into a master's program
21:46 < skelterjohn> it's just harder
21:46 < dho> We'll see what happens
21:46 < dho> Peter offered to let me talk to some of his students
21:46 < skelterjohn> but keep in mind - the GRE is not really about
programming :)
21:46 < dho> so that's got to carry some weight.
21:46 < dho> eh, i can re-learn algebra 2
21:46 < skelterjohn> it's theory and hardware.  sort of a weird mix.
21:46 < dho> oh
21:47 < dho> I thought the GRE was just general graduate
21:47 < skelterjohn> the CS subject GRE, that is.
21:47 < dho> ah
21:47 < skelterjohn> the general one is trivial...the math section anyway
21:47 < skelterjohn> didn't try too hard for the other sections and i
performed acordingly
21:47 < WalterMundt> I took a sample GRE, the vocab stuff on the English
side was a little out there to me, and I'm a voracious reader
21:47 < skelterjohn> same WalterMundt
21:48 < dho> My vocabulary decreased when I learned Dutch
21:48 < skelterjohn> though i read scifi rather than 19th centuray brit lit
21:48 < WalterMundt> right
21:48 < WalterMundt> same here, I read mostly things written in the last
~25-30 years
21:48 < dho> (I'm sure I'd never say `voracious' and I would probably get an
answer wrong in one of those x is to y as a is to b-style questions)
21:48 < skelterjohn> silly "contemporary vocabulary" will get you nowhere.
21:49 * dho decides the tow truck is not coming.
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21:49 < dho> brb, need to call my claim rep :(
21:49 < WalterMundt> good luck
21:49 < maikeru|> Anyone know how University of Chicago's CS department is
at all?
21:49 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["Computer
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21:50 < dho> fail.
21:51 < dho> We'll see what happens.  I figure if a professor is letting me
impart knowledge to his students, that's got to count for something to an
admissions board.
21:51 < dho> I should probably get GRE books then
21:51 < dho> ...and talk to the admissions board
21:51 < skelterjohn> it's not famous for having a CS department, though I'm
sure it's very good, maikeru|
21:51 < dho> otoh i have no idea how much longer i'll be in baltimore
21:51 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:51 < dho> having a degree from jhu would be nice.
21:52 < skelterjohn> dho: best bet is a masters at a state school, somewhere
easier to get in, and then do well , and use that to get into a top tier phd
program
21:53 <+iant> I think it kind of depends on what your goals are
21:53 -!- yaroslav [n=yaroslav@ppp83-237-190-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read
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21:53 < skelterjohn> his goal is to teach, i think he said
21:53 -!- Ryan_____ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-170-194.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client
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21:53 <+iant> ah, then, yes, a Ph.D.  from a well-known school is good
21:54 < skelterjohn> and as an insider, i can say that it is a employer's
market when it comes to faculty positions
21:55 < dho> We'll see.  It's years away yet :\
21:55 < skelterjohn> true :)
21:59 < dho> huh.
21:59 < dho> http://www.gradschool.umd.edu/gss/non_degree_admission.htm
21:59 < dho> oh wait that's something different entirely
22:00 < dho> maybe i should just do some silly quicktrack undergrad degree
with walden or uop
22:01 < skelterjohn> how is that different?
22:01 < skelterjohn> non-degree students
22:01 < skelterjohn> not available for scholarships or assistantships, which
i expected
22:01 < dho> yeah, and the requirements it states you need to have a degree.
very confusing.
22:01 < skelterjohn> it's talking about two things at once
22:01 < skelterjohn> poorly worded, but i believe it's what you want
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22:05 * dho also has no idea how he'd handle that on top of a job
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22:06 < dho> hooray for overwhelming :\
22:06 < vsmatck1> If you're poor enough state school is free in the US. You
still have to have a job for living expenses though.
22:06 < dho> i'm not poor enough
22:07 < dho> i'm well off enough that it'll be difficult to get financial
aid :P
22:07 < skelterjohn> haven't paid a cent for my grad schooling, but that's
because i've had teaching assistantships and, now, research assistantships
22:07 < dho> `well off'
22:07 < vsmatck1> I suppose I was fortunate enough to be extremely poor.
*thinks*
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22:07 < skelterjohn> going to be hard to get away without paying for a
master's, if you don't have a BS
22:08 < skelterjohn> but hey, it could happen
22:08 < skelterjohn> maybe your work will pay
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22:10 < dho>
http://www.phoenix.edu/programs/degree-programs/technology/bachelors/bsit-se/v006.html
gak gak gak
22:10 < dho> sigh.
22:10 < dho> this is going to be a very, very awful 10 years.
22:11 < skelterjohn> that looks like a boring program
22:11 < dho> yes it does
22:11 < skelterjohn> "all the stuff you might as well learn on your own"
22:11 < dho> but i would be able to complete it in a reasonable amount of
time without having to miss work
22:12 < skelterjohn> a course on .net?  can't you just browse a few
tutorials?
22:12 < dho> i may as well have completed every single thing on that list.
22:13 < skelterjohn> one course on "algorithms and logic"
22:13 < skelterjohn> :'(
22:13 < dagle> skelterjohn: They tend to call the courses something else.
There are not just one.
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22:14 < skelterjohn> perhaps the java courses then
22:14 < dho> the only classes i'd learn anything from are maybe senior level
courses, browsing the umd catalog
22:14 < dho> well maybe not.
22:14 < skelterjohn> dho: hubris =p
22:14 < dho> yes, indeed.
22:14 < dho> incidentally, i worked for a company called hubris when i was
in holland
22:14 < adiabatic> dho: And you're bothering with the credential to satisfy
HR droids, or...?
22:14 < dho> huug bruil internet services
22:14 < dho> adiabatic: i want to teach.
22:15 < adiabatic> ah
22:15 < dho> i've never had a problem getting a (good) job
22:15 < skelterjohn> teaching is a pain
22:15 < skelterjohn> heh
22:15 < dho> eh
22:15 < skelterjohn> i was sort of a bastard of a TA
22:16 < skelterjohn> for grading, i mostly separated things into two groups.
"this person gets it" and "this person does not get it"
22:16 < skelterjohn> and put more or less random variance on the numbers
reported, as long as there was a divide between those groups
22:16 < skelterjohn> really accurate and systematic grading just takes too
much time
22:17 < skelterjohn> 256 people in the channel right now, which makes me
happy
22:17 < dho> heh
22:17 < dho> i always notice that sort of thing
22:19 < dho> and am amused beyond how amused i probably should be.
22:21 -!- Ryan_ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-170-194.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["throng to
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22:23 < gnuvince> Is it possible to initialize a multi-dimension slice?  var
xs [][]int = [][]int{{1},{2},{3}}; gives me a syntax error
22:23 < skelterjohn> [][]int{[]int{1,2}}
22:23 < skelterjohn> a bit wordy
22:25 < dho> i wonder if i could get a bachelors in something interesting
22:26 < dho> and then do masters in csc
22:26 < dagle> dho: Bachelor in exotic dance!  ^^
22:26 < dho> i was thinking psychology or anthropology
22:27 < skelterjohn> dho: and then minor in CS, take only a few interesting
courses
22:27 < dho> interesting cs courses require majors in cs :)
22:27 < skelterjohn> might consider having the major be math, but that's
just me
22:27 < dho> that's true
22:27 < skelterjohn> dho: nah.  you can get special permission for anything
if you ask
22:27 < skelterjohn> and convince the prof you won't fail
22:29 < absud> i did the math thing for my bachelors.  butt cs masters
programs often require the core cs courses to apply or before starting the grad
courses :(
22:29 < dho> i don't have any degree, just gobs of self-taught theory and
experience
22:29 < dho> (that's the problem)
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22:30 < gracchus> hey, can someone point me at an example of a go makefile
that results in a linked executable?
22:30 < dho> all:
22:30 < dho> \t6g file1.go file2.go
22:30 < skelterjohn> gracchus: take a look in go/src/cmd
22:30 < dho> well
22:30 < dho> what he said
22:30 -!- stefanc [n=stefanc@80.96.113.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection
reset by peer)]
22:30 < skelterjohn> each of those have a makefile that creates an
executable
22:30 < dho> src/cmd/gofmt for instance
22:30 < gracchus> m'kay, thanks
22:30 < dho> looking in 6c wouldn't be useful
22:30 < skelterjohn> heh
22:31 < skelterjohn> right, filter on the ones that are actually go source
22:33 < gracchus> got it, thanks: I was including Make.pkg, not Make.cmd
22:33 < skelterjohn> that's the gist of it
22:33 < dho> speaking of
22:33 < dho> did you see jan's latest thoughts
22:34 * gracchus notes that go compiles really fast ...  golly ...
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connection]
22:36 < skelterjohn> dho: i saw that there was something long...the gb
project seems to be going in a different direction than i had hoped, tbh.  that's
fine, of course, but my interest ins dwindling
22:36 < skelterjohn> which is good, considering i have a paper deadline in a
month
22:36 < dho> heh, alright.
22:36 < skelterjohn> if you want me to take a look, i will
22:37 < dho> *shrugs* you've got good input
22:37 < dho> if you've time.  i've been busy enough as it is
22:37 < maikeru|> gb project?
22:37 < dho> make-for-go
22:37 < dho> alternatively s/for/in/
22:37 < dho> is the concept.
22:37 -!- gkmn_zZz [n=gkmngrgn@78.185.220.154] has joined #go-nuts
22:38 < skelterjohn> go builder "gb"
22:38 < maikeru|> ah
22:40 < skelterjohn> dho: I just really liked the idea of a very inflexible
and particular builder that, if you organize things properly, can build whatever
sort of cmd or pkg you wanted
22:40 < WalterMundt> link for go builder?
22:40 < skelterjohn> non-public project, WalterMundt
22:40 < WalterMundt> k
22:40 < skelterjohn> the "project" is a discussion in google-wave :)
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22:40 < WalterMundt> I've been thinking something like that would crop up
22:40 < skelterjohn> there are a few tries on go-lang.cat-v.org
22:41 < skelterjohn> this one was commissioned by russ cox, so it has a good
chance of making it into the distribution if it works well
22:41 < WalterMundt> *nods*
22:42 < dho> That said, if you're interested in taking a look and have a
Wave account, I'm glad to add you onto the wave.
22:42 < dho> It's very much still under discussion at this point.
22:42 < maikeru|> I wouldn't mind taking a peek, if that invitation extends
to me as well, that is.
22:43 < dho> Nope, everyone but you.
22:43 < WalterMundt> sounds interesting, let me see what account I have Wave
access on
22:43 < dho> ;)
22:43 < WalterMundt> yeah, waltermundt@codethink.info is the google account
22:43 < WalterMundt> I haven't really messed with it at all
22:43 < maikeru|> dho: :P I'll make sure to send a note to whatever
university you're looking at on, erm, you're behalf
22:44 < dho> make sure to spell your correctly ;)
22:44 < dho> waltermundt@codethink.info is not a Google Wave account.
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22:44 < maikeru|> damn't
22:44 < skelterjohn> in your college essays, anyway
22:44 < maikeru|> I never make that mistake.
22:44 < dho> maikeru|: what's your account name
22:44 < maikeru|> michaelaschade@gmail.com I think.
22:45 < dho> your last name means `damage' in dutch.
22:45 < maikeru|> Hmm, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.
22:46 < skelterjohn> dho: honestly i felt like we had something really cool
going on, and then russ came in and dive bombed it
22:46 < skelterjohn> heh
22:46 < skelterjohn> but it is clear that his vision of what it should be
was different than mine
22:46 < skelterjohn> so that's just how it goes
22:47 < dho> skelterjohn: I don't see why it can't still magically build
things.
22:47 < skelterjohn> it can, but he wants it to be something with the same
functionality as make or scons
22:47 < skelterjohn> which is a lot of work, and why do all that work?
22:47 < skelterjohn> :)
22:47 -!- tomestla [n=tom@87.100.115.249] has quit ["Leaving."]
22:47 < dho> unfortunately, portability is one of those reasons :)
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22:48 < skelterjohn> developing on windows is a pain for millions of reasons
22:48 < WalterMundt> yeah, I could see some value in something that expects
e.g.  src/pkg to have a compilable package tree and src/exe to have binaries or
some similar convention
22:48 < skelterjohn> every other system can use make
22:49 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: you can just check the package name...  if
it's "main" then it's a cmd.  If it's not, then it's a pkg
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22:49 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: ahh, true
22:49 < WalterMundt> can go currently do multi-file main package?
22:49 < skelterjohn> sure can
22:49 < skelterjohn> 6g file1.go file2.go
22:50 < WalterMundt> k, so that'd be one thing.  if a directory has 2 "main"
files, are they one command or two?
22:50 < dho> WalterMundt: your wave account wasn't a wave account
22:50 < WalterMundt> ack
22:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EIF5 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ --
Clarify section on tokens.
22:50 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: that is part of what it should enforce.
only one target per directory
22:50 < skelterjohn> most of our discussion was how to nicely choose which
files to include in the compile
22:51 < skelterjohn> depending on platform, etc
22:51 < WalterMundt> dho: maybe codethink.info@googlewave.com ?
22:51 < WalterMundt> not sure precisely how it works, sorry
22:51 < dho> yep
22:51 < gracchus> one "target" == one func main() though, which is enforced
22:51 < gracchus> ?
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22:53 < skelterjohn> yes
22:53 < skelterjohn> it's all moot at this point - the project is going in a
different direction
22:53 < skelterjohn> maybe one day i'll do what i was thinking
22:53 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Bye
Bye"]
22:53 < dho> skelterjohn: feel free to use goober, it does most of that
right now
22:53 < zaker_> i just wonder why the square brackets used to declare and
use arrays are switching from prefix to post-fix, example: var array []int =>
array[i]....  instead of just keeping it prefix?
22:53 < dho> sort of
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22:54 < skelterjohn> dho: did you do more with goober?
22:54 < dho> no but it's trivial to get it to work
22:54 < skelterjohn> heh
22:56 < WalterMundt> you know, I find the use case of running the builder in
a subdirectory to be interesting.  I don't want you to have to put a build file in
every dir, but it would be nice to have the builder just build the package of the
cwd if run with no args in a package's directory
22:57 < WalterMundt> maybe have a builder that searches up the tree for a
build file by default
22:57 < skelterjohn> maybe after this deadline i'll put it together
22:57 < skelterjohn> alternatively, maybe i won't feel like implementing
something that does only a subset of the current gb proposal
22:57 < skelterjohn> :)
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23:04 < napsy> Hello.  How do I iterate through list.List()?
23:04 < skelterjohn> l.Iter()
23:04 < dho> WalterMundt: the issue with that is directories like pkg/io
23:04 < napsy> ok but how do I use this?
23:05 < skelterjohn> var l list.List = ...  \n for val := range l.Iter() {
...  }
23:05 < napsy> oh ok
23:05 < dho> WalterMundt: if you have a makefile in pkg/io, how do you know
that pkg/ioutil is a different package without scanning files in it
23:05 < dho> or that they're not supposed to be linked together
23:05 < WalterMundt> I've not looked in there as of yet
23:07 < WalterMundt> Are they separate?  Because I'd say the sane default is
to presume different directories are separate packages and attempt to auto-resolve
any dependencies regardless of their hierarchical relationship within the source
tree
23:08 < napsy> skelterjohn: ok I have the iter but how to get the data now?
23:08 < skelterjohn> I think having the source for one package inside the
directory for another is pretty weird
23:08 < WalterMundt> again, absent any build instructions beyond a marker
file at the root
23:08 < skelterjohn> napsy: like i said - a for/range.
23:09 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: if the package is going to be named
io/ioutil, having it be in src/pkg/io/ioutil makes perfect sense to me
23:09 < napsy> skelterjohn: I created the for loop but now I don't know how
to get the data from the item
23:09 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: I think having a package named io/ioutil
is weird :)
23:09 < WalterMundt> therein lies the difference between us then
23:09 < skelterjohn> napsy: val is the data.  each iteration of the for loop
will assign a different element to val
23:10 < napsy> skelterjohn: yes but if I try to print the data (string) I
get pointers
23:10 < skelterjohn> then the data isn't strings :)
23:10 < skelterjohn> try val.(string)
23:10 < napsy> ok
23:10 < skelterjohn> a list.List has interface{} as its elements
23:10 < WalterMundt> I see nesting related packages as normal, and in a
similar vein to the function of packages in other languages like Python and Java
23:10 < napsy> skelterjohn: oh it works now, thanks
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23:10 < WalterMundt> though I am very thankful that go hasn't gone the Java
route wrt package naming
23:11 < dho> val.(string) is really weird
23:11 < skelterjohn> napsy: val is of type interface{}
23:11 < dho> i've always found that a little too verbose
23:11 < skelterjohn> it happens that string implements that interface
23:11 < skelterjohn> dho: until generics, that's how it goes
23:11 < dho> yeah
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23:16 < skelterjohn> the alternative is way too verbose, but it seems weird
to me that you don't have to wrap everything in interface boxes when you pass them
as parameters
23:17 < skelterjohn> in the way that you have to say "var i int =
int(aFloat)" instead of "var i int = aFloat"
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23:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EMbc by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/crypto/md5/ -- A couple of tighter loops.
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 29 00:00:01 2009