--- Log opened Mon Dec 28 00:00:32 2009 --- Day changed Mon Dec 28 2009 00:00 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE74DE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:00 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:02 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE74DE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:11 -!- jhh [n=jhh@g228195150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:12 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 00:12 -!- goomba [n=goomba@adsl-75-21-164-195.dsl.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:14 -!- ShadowIce` [i=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:15 -!- aho [n=nya@e176238218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:30 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:32 -!- gkmngrgn [n=gkmngrgn@unaffiliated/gkmngrgn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35 -!- shasbot [n=shasbot@ip70-171-218-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:36 -!- randomiser [n=james@78-105-103-158.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:39 -!- tar_ [n=tom@cpe-24-210-143-83.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:40 -!- JSharpe2 [n=jamie@5ad50252.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:40 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE74DE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:40 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad50252.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44 -!- kota1111 [n=kota1111@gw2.kbmj.jp] has joined #go-nuts 00:46 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 00:54 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:56 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #go-nuts 01:15 -!- jhh [n=jhh@g228195150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 01:24 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #go-nuts 01:24 -!- triplez [n=triplez@cm52.sigma225.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 01:33 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:34 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:39 -!- Sungem_ [i=ss@220-136-226-157.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:40 -!- yuanxin [n=uman@ip98-165-123-27.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:47 -!- tor5 [n=tor@h38n1fls305o968.telia.com] has quit [] 01:57 -!- Sungem [i=ss@118-160-163-184.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7E555.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7E555.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has left #go-nuts [] 02:16 -!- insaneroot [n=insanero@p57A2987A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 02:17 -!- vizzord [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has quit ["see you"] 02:38 -!- Tuller [n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["to the batcave?"] 02:43 -!- kashia__ [n=Kashia@p4FEB69B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:50 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-65-147.singnet.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 02:50 -!- BigAl [n=BigAl@c-98-203-66-39.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:52 -!- BiggestAl [n=BigAl@c-98-203-66-39.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:52 -!- BiggestAl [n=BiggestA@c-98-203-66-39.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:54 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 02:54 -!- KillerX [n=anant@adsl-065-012-176-096.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:55 -!- KillerX [n=anant@gentoo/developer/KillerX] has quit [Client Quit] 02:58 -!- BiggestAl [n=BiggestA@c-98-203-66-39.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Yoiks and away!!!!!!!!!!!!"] 02:58 -!- BiggestAl [n=BiggestA@c-98-203-66-39.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:59 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:00 < BiggestAl> Well, installe go on a Mac and got the hello world app to compile and run, so I guess so far so good... 03:00 < BiggestAl> Any recommendations on where to start after that? 03:07 -!- stdio [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08 -!- pastozz [n=romina94@190.174.137.159] has joined #go-nuts 03:12 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:14 < BiggestAl> Thanks, appreciate the help :p 03:16 -!- sinuhe [n=user@kaptah.deevans.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:19 < dagle> BiggestAl: you have done the 3 day tutorial? 03:20 < BiggestAl> Nop, just installed go and did the hello world 1st app in it, looking for a recommendation on where to start, docs folder, web site, where is good? 03:20 < dagle> BiggestAl: Website is generate from the docs so. 03:22 < BiggestAl> a 3 day tutorial sounds fun, that on the site? 03:22 < dagle> Yes. 03:22 < dagle> Under tutorial. 03:24 < BiggestAl> DOH - scrapping foot on carpet, feeling sheepish, Tutorial is the FIRST item on the menu, no wonder Imissed it LMAO 03:26 -!- BiggestAl [n=BiggestA@c-98-203-66-39.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Yoiks and away!!!!!!!!!!!!"] 03:26 < dagle> :) 03:39 -!- absud [n=kabodle@thales.strtok.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:40 -!- Kibiz0r [n=Adium@99-48-204-31.lightspeed.brhmmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:53 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-149.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:02 -!- Kibiz0r [n=Adium@99-48-204-31.lightspeed.brhmmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:02 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25 -!- tar_ [n=tom@cpe-24-210-143-83.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:28 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [] 04:29 -!- jdp [n=justin@75.97.120.11.res-cmts.senj.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:33 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 04:41 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 04:47 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 04:55 -!- robot12 [n=root@robot12.kgts.ru] has joined #go-nuts 05:16 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:17 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:17 -!- mizai [n=mizai@pool-173-77-2-58.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:24 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:26 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:30 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:31 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:45 -!- Kibiz0r [n=Adium@99-48-204-31.lightspeed.brhmmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:48 -!- JBeshir [n=namegduf@82.27.24.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 05:50 -!- JBeshir [n=namegduf@82.27.24.89] has joined #go-nuts 05:52 -!- keet [n=o@unaffiliated/keet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53 -!- keet [n=o@unaffiliated/keet] has joined #go-nuts 05:55 -!- FMJaguar [n=quassel@li109-161.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:56 -!- Kibiz0r [n=Adium@99-48-204-31.lightspeed.brhmmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:12 -!- temme [n=kcollins@pool-173-71-105-240.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:19 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has joined #go-nuts 06:21 -!- Macpunk [n=macpunk@cpe-72-177-27-209.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 06:25 -!- keet [n=o@unaffiliated/keet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:37 -!- path[l] [i=UPP@120.138.102.34] has quit [] 06:45 -!- aho [n=nya@e176238218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION"] 06:46 -!- fyusy1 [n=fyusman@110.174.144.171] has joined #go-nuts 06:46 -!- fyusy1 [n=fyusman@110.174.144.171] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01 -!- sinuhe [n=user@kaptah.deevans.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:09 -!- temme [n=kcollins@pool-173-71-105-240.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:13 -!- Xera^ [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )"] 07:29 -!- melba [n=blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30 -!- Kashia [n=Kashia@p4FEB4C23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:33 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 07:38 -!- AlexW573 [n=AlexW573@c-98-216-58-37.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:38 -!- AlexW573 [n=AlexW573@c-98-216-58-37.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42 -!- ShadowIce [i=shadowic@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 07:44 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.144.88] has joined #go-nuts 07:48 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has joined #go-nuts 08:20 -!- SoniaKeys [n=soniakey@c-76-118-178-209.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:20 -!- Kniht [n=kniht@c-68-58-17-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:43 -!- tar_ [n=tom@cpe-24-210-143-83.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:50 -!- kaigan|work [n=kaigan@c-8290e255.1411-10-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 08:51 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53 -!- Xeon [n=chatzill@202.158.165.178] has joined #go-nuts 08:53 -!- p0g0_ [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has joined #go-nuts 08:54 < Xeon> cant into golang.org 08:55 < Xeon> cant into mailing list either 08:55 < kaigan|work> site loads fine here 08:57 -!- p0g0__ [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:02 -!- fyusy [n=fyusman@110.174.144.171] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:02 -!- kota1111 [n=kota1111@gw2.kbmj.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:20 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has joined #go-nuts 09:26 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 09:30 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:31 -!- iwikiwi_ [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 09:35 -!- jhh [n=jhh@g228199193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 09:38 -!- senneth [i=senneth@irssi/staff/senneth] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39 -!- senneth [i=senneth@irssi/staff/senneth] has joined #go-nuts 09:44 -!- General13372 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has joined #go-nuts 10:01 -!- Zarutian [n=zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has quit [] 10:04 -!- Macpunk [n=macpunk@cpe-72-177-27-209.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:05 -!- b00m_chef__ [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has joined #go-nuts 10:06 -!- b00m_chef [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:09 -!- r2p2 [n=billy@v32671.1blu.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:12 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has quit [] 10:13 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has joined #go-nuts 10:27 -!- b00m_chef__ [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:35 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:47 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 10:50 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 10:50 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:51 -!- triplez [n=triplez@bb116-14-65-147.singnet.com.sg] has quit [] 10:52 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@e181235015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:55 < Kashia> I wish you could Tag methods in an interface like fields in a struct... 10:57 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:00 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.1-dev"] 11:01 < jessta> Kashia: Tag? 11:01 < Kashia> yes, tag. 11:01 < jessta> what do you mean? 11:02 < Kashia> see the struct type in http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html 11:03 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@e181235015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:03 < Kashia> for a bigger example, I think the xml de-serializing package uses it 11:03 < jessta> ah, I see 11:04 < Kashia> Annotating fields with arbitrary information, quite a nice idea :) 11:04 < jessta> it might be good to have it for methods, but it might be a bit too constraining 11:05 < Kashia> I'm not sure. I thought about it a little, and I'm not even sure it's the right way to go. 11:06 < jessta> a field in struct has a specific use, the behaviour of a method in an interface isn't really specific 11:06 < Kashia> yes, I came to that conclustion too 11:07 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 11:07 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@scorpion.mps.com.br] has joined #go-nuts 11:07 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@e181231034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 11:07 < jessta> thanks for mentioning it, I didn't notice the tagging previously 11:07 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:08 < Kashia> a relatively obscure feature 11:08 < Kashia> but really useful for serialization 11:08 < Kashia> makes for quite nice user-side code... 11:11 -!- triplez [n=triplez@cm52.sigma225.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 11:14 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 11:34 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48 -!- kashia_ [n=Kashia@p4FEB6314.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:49 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has joined #go-nuts 11:55 -!- Kashia [n=Kashia@p4FEB4C23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:06 -!- pagenoare [n=page@unaffiliated/pagenoare] has joined #go-nuts 12:07 -!- pagenoare [n=page@unaffiliated/pagenoare] has left #go-nuts [] 12:13 -!- neynenmo [n=neynenmo@p57BC8C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 12:20 -!- neynenmo [n=neynenmo@p57BC8C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:27 -!- syd_ [n=sydcogs@118.127.19.220] has quit ["No Ping reply in 180 seconds."] 12:27 -!- syd [n=sydcogs@118.127.19.220] has joined #go-nuts 12:33 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 12:37 -!- DerHorst [n=Horst@e176096157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 12:41 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Arr"] 12:44 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 12:52 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.144.88] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:06 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.1.72] has joined #go-nuts 13:14 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host203-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.1.72] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:22 -!- Xeon [n=chatzill@202.158.165.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.150.22] has joined #go-nuts 13:23 -!- keet [n=o@unaffiliated/keet] has joined #go-nuts 13:28 -!- Fraeon [n=kzer-za@e212-246-65-153.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 13:31 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host203-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #go-nuts 13:37 -!- kashia_ [n=Kashia@p4FEB6314.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:39 -!- Kashia [n=Kashia@p4FEB6314.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:40 -!- ikke [n=ikke@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has joined #go-nuts 13:56 -!- kaigan|work [n=kaigan@c-8290e255.1411-10-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 13:59 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.150.22] has quit [] 14:02 -!- Null_ [n=xxxx@216.40.38.232] has quit ["leaving"] 14:05 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host203-126-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host148-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #go-nuts 14:12 -!- neynenmo [n=neynenmo@p57BC8C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:15 -!- stefanc [n=stefanc@80.96.113.156] has joined #go-nuts 14:16 -!- Kashia [n=Kashia@p4FEB6314.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16 -!- Kashia [n=Kashia@p4FEB6314.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:18 -!- Kashia [n=Kashia@p4FEB6314.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:39 -!- Null_ [n=empty@CPE0014bfba5c1d-CM0011e6ecc696.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:40 -!- Null_ [n=empty@CPE0014bfba5c1d-CM0011e6ecc696.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41 -!- Null_ [n=empty@CPE0014bfba5c1d-CM0011e6ecc696.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:42 -!- robot12 [n=root@robot12.kgts.ru] has quit ["Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)"] 14:42 -!- Null_ [n=empty@CPE0014bfba5c1d-CM0011e6ecc696.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #go-nuts [] 14:43 -!- neynenmo [n=neynenmo@p57BC8C69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:47 -!- pastozz [n=romina94@190.174.137.159] has quit ["chauchisss"] 14:47 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:48 -!- e1f [n=user@141.117.1.155] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51 -!- murodese [n=James@124-169-145-61.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #go-nuts [] 14:53 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-45-82-65-141-236.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:00 -!- ShadowIce [i=shadowic@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:00 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #go-nuts [] 15:03 -!- Demp_ [n=Demp@109.65.52.195] has joined #go-nuts 15:04 -!- ShadowIce [n=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 15:05 -!- insaneroot [n=insanero@p57A28F7F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 15:06 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has quit [] 15:14 -!- Zarutian [n=zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #go-nuts 15:21 -!- lotrpy [n=lotrpy@202.38.97.230] has joined #go-nuts 15:21 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-79-180-128-194.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29 -!- [NiNjA]UK [n=ninja@free.bnc.with.cool.vhosts.at.nixta.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 15:38 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 15:43 -!- [NiNjA]UK [n=ninja@free.bnc.with.cool.vhosts.at.nixta.co.uk] has left #go-nuts [] 15:43 -!- [NiNjA]UK [n=ninja@free.bnc.with.cool.vhosts.at.nixta.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 15:48 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 16:05 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-109-64-48-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:05 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 16:07 -!- ikke [n=ikke@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has quit [] 16:10 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:11 -!- scm_ [i=justme@d038229.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:13 -!- lotrpy [n=lotrpy@202.38.97.230] has quit [] 16:18 -!- goomba [n=goomba@adsl-75-21-164-195.dsl.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #go-nuts ["Konversation terminated!"] 16:22 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 16:23 -!- scm [i=justme@c137174.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23 -!- Demp_ [n=Demp@109.65.52.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:25 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242038.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:27 -!- qbit_ [n=qbit_@c-75-71-160-106.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:27 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242038.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242025.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:35 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:38 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@66.54.185.131] has joined #go-nuts 16:39 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 16:40 -!- Cyanure [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:43 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has quit [] 16:46 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 16:48 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:50 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@cpe-67-241-129-149.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:51 -!- Xera^ [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 17:01 -!- aho [n=nya@g228022036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 17:16 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has joined #go-nuts 17:18 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@53.250.sfcn.org] has joined #go-nuts 17:18 -!- mertimor_ [n=meowtime@132.252.250.159] has joined #go-nuts 17:18 -!- mertimor_ [n=meowtime@132.252.250.159] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19 -!- mertimor_ [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242010.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has joined #go-nuts 17:24 -!- BMeph [n=BMeph@65.103.151.24] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:25 -!- mertimor_ [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242010.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has quit ["Arr"] 17:26 -!- mertimor_ [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242010.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has joined #go-nuts 17:36 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242025.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:41 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:53 -!- mertimor [n=meowtime@vpn-ce242010.extern.uni-duisburg-essen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:59 -!- mssm [n=mssmfs@ip-95-221-113-124.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #go-nuts 17:59 -!- keet [n=o@unaffiliated/keet] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:15 -!- timmcd [n=Adium@97-117-100-106.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:16 < timmcd> Hey, hypothetically, would Go be appropriate/possible to write a kernel in? 18:18 <+iant> some day, perhaps; it would need a mode to disable the garbage collector 18:18 <+iant> correct manipulation of memory mapped hardware would require some sort of equivalent to C's volatile, or would have to be written in assembler 18:19 < timmcd> interesting, thanks! ^_^ 18:20 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts 18:20 < timmcd> Is there a base place yet for browsing Go libraries and C library wrappings? 18:21 -!- timmcd [n=Adium@97-117-100-106.slkc.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:21 <+iant> you can look at http://go-lang.cat-v.org/ 18:21 -!- gkmngrgn [n=gkmngrgn@78.185.220.154] has joined #go-nuts 18:22 < skelterjohn> you should really link that site on your main page :) 18:22 <+iant> yeah, we need to overhaul the page slightly 18:33 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-6-232.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 18:33 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has joined #go-nuts 18:34 < sheb> hi all 18:34 < dagle> Hello. 18:34 < sheb> i'm searching how to open and read a file 18:36 <+iant> e.g., os.Open, bufio.ReadBytes 18:37 < WalterMundt> I just tried to update to the new release and rebuild, and it appears one of the tests is segfaulting: http://gopaste.org/view/324G6 18:38 <+iant> WalterMundt: that is odd; if it is repeatable please open an issue for it 18:38 <+iant> I have not seen that 18:38 < WalterMundt> I'll rerun the build and see what happens 18:40 < dho> afternoon 18:40 < dho> iant: thanks for the reply 18:40 <+iant> I would be interested to hear what Russ has to say, but he is off until 2010 18:40 < dho> yeah 18:40 < dho> it can certainly wait 18:40 < WalterMundt> I'm a bit surprised at the amount of flame over the semicolon change. I'm much more interested in things like how efficient the scheduler gets or how cheap goroutines can get 18:40 < dho> not that time-critical 18:40 -!- lstoll [n=lstoll@randall.lstoll.net] has left #go-nuts [] 18:41 < dho> WalterMundt: it's quite clear that those in opposition haven't written any go code 18:41 <+iant> the semicolon change is a classic bikeshed issue 18:41 < dho> WalterMundt: in the general case, it makes all programs clearer 18:41 < dho> iant: pink. 18:41 <+iant> ha 18:42 < dho> and the number of projects who have style guidelines that require the format to be similar to what go requires leads me to believe those who aren't writing in that style are either novices or horrible spaghetti coder types 18:43 -!- leitaox [n=leitaox@189.20.94.66] has joined #go-nuts 18:43 < dho> only difference I've noticed is the func foo(...) (...) {, whereas most places I've worked / projects I've contributed to would have that curly brace on the next line. 18:43 < dho> But it really does not matter *that* much. 18:43 < WalterMundt> *shrugs* I'm not inclined to care so much about style. I was horribly offended by Python's whitespaceisms when I started with that language and it's become one of my favorites for completely unrelated reasons. 18:43 < dho> *nods* I really wish they had made those global and not per-scope. 18:44 * dho is waiting for a tow truck :( 18:44 <+iant> yuck 18:45 -!- sinuhe [n=user@kaptah.deevans.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:45 < dho> rats chewed through my engine wiring :( 18:45 <+iant> you probably forgot to put out food on Christmas eve 18:46 <+iant> they notice things like that 18:46 < WalterMundt> I'm very happy not to have to drive much at all any more. 18:48 < WalterMundt> I've found that a walking "commute" (vs. driving or subway) makes life more pleasant out of all proportion with the amount of time one spends on it. 18:49 < skelterjohn> i had a cycling commute for a while 18:49 < skelterjohn> it was pretty nice 18:49 < skelterjohn> rode through a park on the way to campus 18:50 <+iant> My commute is bike to bus 18:50 <+iant> walking would be better 18:50 < skelterjohn> two-step commutes are a drain 18:50 < skelterjohn> before i got my bike i had to take two buses to get to the same spot 18:51 < WalterMundt> I go back and forth between bike and walking. My last commute was rush-hour NYC subway; quite a contrast (I'm not in NYC any more). 18:52 < skelterjohn> living in NJ doesn't make for nice commutes. i drive ~30 minutes with low traffic, but my fiancee spends 90 minutes on the turnpike every day 18:52 < skelterjohn> she hates NJ :'( 18:54 < WalterMundt> iant: bug evaporated after three builds. I did the second to test for reproducibility and the third to save complete build output to a file for reference, and the output file was a clean build. *shrugs* 18:54 < dho> heh 18:54 < dho> i hate nj :\ 18:54 <+iant> oy 18:54 < WalterMundt> I would too in her shoes. 18:55 < skelterjohn> NJ is a wonderful place. parts of it, anyway. The turnpike is not one of them. 18:55 < dho> s/wonderful/stinky cesspool of a/ 18:55 < dho> (sorry) 18:55 < skelterjohn> I only wish this were in person so I could stare you down convincingly 18:55 < dho> heh 18:55 < WalterMundt> Yeah, but how many people get to live in the nice parts without having to spend a nontrivial chunk of their life on the turnpike? 18:56 < skelterjohn> and then do a fist pump 18:56 * dho is going to have to find a different parking spot 18:56 < dho> stupid city. :( 18:56 < skelterjohn> people who work in NE jersey use the turnpike to get to work 18:56 < skelterjohn> most populous bit of NJ, sure 18:57 < skelterjohn> I grew up in Princeton, which is quite nice 18:57 < skelterjohn> also, the northwest is really nice 18:59 < WalterMundt> well, I just ran what little code I've written through the gofmt semicolon rinse and I like the results 19:00 < dho> yeah, like i said. it's just people who don't like pink. 19:00 < skelterjohn> I like it better this way... having them semi-optional was weird 19:00 < skelterjohn> reminded me of pascal 19:02 < dho> heh 19:02 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03 -!- leitaox [n=leitaox@189.20.94.66] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:18 -!- hyakuhei [n=hyakuhei@78.32.138.28] has joined #go-nuts 19:26 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:28 -!- defectiv [n=clays@or-67-76-144-131.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:30 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:33 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 19:34 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [No route to host] 19:36 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:37 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has joined #go-nuts 19:40 -!- tgall_foo [n=tgall@gentoo/developer/dr-who] has joined #go-nuts 19:41 < defectiv> do arrays/slices not implement basic iterators like each() and each_with_index() and especially combinations() ?? 19:41 < defectiv> trying to port a ruby program to go and it's painful. 19:41 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:41 < skelterjohn> for index, value := range theArrayOrSlice { ... } 19:42 < skelterjohn> Though I am not familiar with what you're talking about in ruby, specifically. 19:44 < defectiv> yeah i've seen that syntax. 19:44 < defectiv> kinda lame compared to array.each(func(index, value)) 19:45 < defectiv> but combination() is a very important function. it does combinatorial "n choose k" 19:45 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EyNU by [Adam Langley] in go/src/pkg/crypto/tls/ -- crypto/tls: make Listener a pointer. 19:45 < skelterjohn> iterate through all k-sized tuples in the array? 19:45 < defectiv> or like array_of_ints.max and array_of_ints.min and such. 19:46 < defectiv> that's correct. 19:46 < skelterjohn> these all seem easy enough to implement a helper function for 19:46 -!- [NiNjA]UK [n=ninja@free.bnc.with.cool.vhosts.at.nixta.co.uk] has left #go-nuts [] 19:46 -!- [NiNjA]UK [n=ninja@free.bnc.with.cool.vhosts.at.nixta.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 19:46 < defectiv> you're saying i should write my own because the language doesn't have this? 19:47 < skelterjohn> the go standard library is small because it's a new language 19:47 < skelterjohn> it will grow 19:47 < defectiv> fair enough. 19:47 < skelterjohn> though i don't see those things as being part of a core api, really. perhaps one day someone will make a package for them 19:47 < defectiv> those seem to be pretty fundamental array functions. 19:48 < dho> write some wrappers, send a patch 19:48 < skelterjohn> are there libraries other than ruby's that has combination? 19:48 < defectiv> i don't know. 19:48 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75D8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:48 < dho> python will let you do similar things. 19:48 < skelterjohn> and for min, max... that depends on the array elements being comparable 19:48 < defectiv> of course. 19:48 < dho> but so will c, if you write it :) 19:49 < skelterjohn> so, not a function with an array as a receiver 19:49 < skelterjohn> maybe when some way of doing generics/templates comes in, there will be a max(array) function 19:49 < defectiv> the issue is about how productive a language lets you be out of the box. 19:49 < defectiv> there should be an array.max() function 19:49 < dho> I haven't had any issues with Go impeding me from being productive. 19:49 < defectiv> lol. 19:50 < defectiv> dude, write a program in ruby. then write it in go. it will take 4 times as long. 19:50 < skelterjohn> but there can't be an array.max() function, since not all arrays have a max. 19:50 < dho> defectiv: and be 800 times as slow. 19:50 < defectiv> who cares? 19:50 < dho> I do. 19:50 < defectiv> performance is cheap. 19:50 < skelterjohn> people who want fast programs? 19:50 < defectiv> you're economics are wrong. 19:50 < skelterjohn> *boggle* 19:50 < dho> lol 19:50 < defectiv> performance is cheap. development is expensive. 19:50 < defectiv> buying twice as much hardware costs nothing compared to buying more programmers. 19:50 < skelterjohn> i guess if you are ruby's target demographic 19:50 < defectiv> that economy was passed years ago. 19:51 < dho> defectiv: Explain to me why I have a job then? 19:51 < jessta> defectiv: buying twice as much hardware doesn't always make things faster 19:51 < defectiv> because your employer is stupid? i don't know. 19:51 < skelterjohn> for my stuff, certainly, that economy has not been passed 19:51 < skelterjohn> defectiv: you are under the impression that the only stuff out there is the stuff you're interested in 19:52 < skelterjohn> the world of computers is big 19:52 < dho> Hm, we're stupid and we have the highest performance mail server in the world. 19:52 < dho> Ok, that makes sense. 19:52 < defectiv> okay, describe your use case. 19:52 < dho> Thanks for that enlightenment. 19:52 * dho makes use of ignore list 19:52 < vegai> the ruby guys took "perfomance is cheap" to a rather sad extreme, though ... 19:52 < defectiv> who cares about performance? 19:52 < skelterjohn> I'm a grad student who does machine learning research 19:52 < skelterjohn> things can take a long time if you aren't careful about your algorithm design 19:52 < dho> In the case that you're not a troll: people who send a terabyte of plain text email a day care about performance. 19:52 < defectiv> there are occasionally cases where performance really matters, because your calculations can't be suficiently parallelized. but they are rare. 19:53 < Norgg> defectiv: Google, for one. 19:53 < vegai> defectiv: I work in a company whose one product is a web application written in ruby 19:53 < vegai> defectiv: and oh boy do we care about ruby's horrible performance in some cases 19:53 < defectiv> Norgg: i specifically cited the google model. a case where inefficiency is muliplied because of massive scaling. 19:53 < defectiv> then you probably suck at scaling. 19:53 < skelterjohn> anyway, saying "you're stupid because you think a different subjective measure is important" is...stupid 19:54 < defectiv> well, that's not what i said. 19:54 < skelterjohn> you said that performance doesn't matter, only dev speed 19:54 < vegai> defectiv: can you imagine actions that take more than a second? More than 10 seconds? More than a minute? 19:54 < dho> defectiv: All I know is that our product would not be able to handle 11 million messages an hour if it were written in ruby. 19:54 < defectiv> in the VAST MAJORITY of cases. 19:54 < vegai> defectiv: how would you scale these out? 19:54 < defectiv> not 100% of the time. 19:54 < jessta> defectiv: I've heard a lot of companies that started with ruby regret it due to various scaling issues 19:54 < skelterjohn> in the vast majority of cases that you deal with 19:54 < defectiv> dho what makes you think that? 19:54 < dho> And who cares about it? Every customer we have (and we have big ones) 19:54 < vegai> jessta: yes, exactly 19:54 < dho> defectiv: the fact that it's a fact. 19:55 < defectiv> show me some processes that take that long in ruby. please. 19:55 < defectiv> show me how they cannot be parallelized. 19:55 < vegai> defectiv: you seriously cannot imagine this? 19:55 < vegai> defectiv: then why am I talking to you still? 19:55 < defectiv> i didn't say that. 19:55 < defectiv> i'm just skeptical that your case is really what you think it is. 19:56 < dagle> I think I can do a thing that will be extremly slow on ruby. 19:56 < jessta> defectiv: does ruby have real threads yet? 19:56 < defectiv> 1.9 does. 19:56 < dho> defectiv: I'm skeptical that you think a full-featured SMTP server written in ruby can handle >10 million SMTP conversations in an hour. 19:56 < defectiv> why can't it? 19:56 < jessta> defectiv: good to hear 19:56 < defectiv> that's a perfect opportunity for scaling. 19:56 < skelterjohn> i think he is implying that ruby code is slow 19:57 < dho> Well, the fact that it doesn't have anywhere near the runtime speed of C, for starters. 19:57 < defectiv> ruby is slow compared to compiled languages of course. but an SMTP server is just doing a massively scaled bunch of SMALL processes. 19:57 -!- hd_2 [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57 < defectiv> dho please explain how speed is relevant. 19:57 < vegai> http://xkcd.com/386/ :-P 19:57 < skelterjohn> defectiv: you are bizarre 19:57 < dho> defectiv: Do you understand how much email volume an ISP has? 19:57 < defectiv> volume is irrelevant. 19:58 < dho> Really? 19:58 < defectiv> dho yes. 19:58 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #go-nuts 19:58 < defectiv> there is this thing called scaling. 19:58 < WalterMundt> dho: no, he just thinks it makes sense for an ISP to use a datacenter full of machines to run their e-mail 19:58 < dagle> defectiv: It's extremly hard to prove a language like ruby. 19:58 -!- gasreaa [n=atwong@nat/slide/x-eofycastwvfouqas] has joined #go-nuts 19:58 < vsmatck1> "when you're a hammer all problems look like nails" 19:58 < dho> Oh, I see. Because we do hot-hot failover and make use of thread pools and events in our software, we know nothing of scaling. 19:58 < WalterMundt> instead of, you know, writing a fast mail server and saving thousands of dollars a day on power to not run all that ruby code 19:58 < dho> Clearly you know more about the problem space than we do. Go for it, you can make millions. 19:59 < dho> I suggest going to Facebook with the `volume is irrelevant' argument 19:59 < dho> They'll love that 19:59 < defectiv> they use php. 19:59 < dho> For their mail server? No. 19:59 < defectiv> i believe. or mostly at least. 19:59 < skelterjohn> for rendering.... 19:59 < dho> They use our product. 19:59 < dho> Because it cut down the amount of hardware they needed by over 90% 19:59 < dho> and I'd give you exact numbers if I was allowed to. 19:59 < vsmatck1> The facebook webserver is written in python IIRC. 19:59 < dagle> :) 20:00 < dho> But I'm not, but you'll have to take my word that it is an order of magnitude. 20:00 < dho> When you are a large service provider, be it social network, internet service provider, whatever, and you have literally tens of billions of messages coming at you a day, you want them handled and you want them handled now. 20:01 < defectiv> dho that may be just the niche case where the economics are in favor of faster code and more developer time. you have a very narrow slice of functionality ("doing email") that a team of good devs can write in a reasonable time frame, even in a language like C or Go. and it does that same operation SO MUCH that the savings on hardware make up for the greater cost of developer time. 20:01 -!- gasreaa [n=atwong@nat/slide/x-eofycastwvfouqas] has left #go-nuts [] 20:01 < defectiv> that's a pretty rare model though. for general purpose programming, that model doesn't hold up at all. 20:02 < skelterjohn> for general purpose programming, the idea that you can jsut throw more hardware at it is also not so relevant 20:02 < dho> That's only applicable if you consider a large scale service provider a `niche' case. 20:02 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7E555.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:02 < slashus2> And they use Erlang for their facebook chat thing with a myriad of other functional languages for other systems. 20:02 < vsmatck1> I think the point is that this isn't the point. There are good email servers that already exist written in developer inefficient languages. Use those. 20:02 < dho> In general computing, and by that I mean consumer computing, you can never assume there's more hardware to throw at it. Most people have 1 machine to run your software. 20:02 < defectiv> niche in that there is a very narrow problem space. 20:03 < WalterMundt> heh, Facebook is smart, they have Thrift and write different bits of infrastructure in different languages depending on their needs 20:03 < dho> People who need speed get speed. If your `general case' means someone running a blog on their website, you're probably right in the assumption that they don't need SuperFastAwesomeHTTPD 20:03 < dho> But that doesn't negate the fact that performance is critical. 20:03 < dho> Which was what you were asserting. 20:03 < vsmatck1> This is a stupid conversation. I'm out. 20:03 < defectiv> sorry, i should have specified that i'm not really talking about consumer computing. although in general i think speed matters less in that area, since the vast majority of applications don't have to be particularly speedy, since most consumers have way too much processing power for their needs. 20:04 < jessta> vsmatck1: agreed 20:04 < dho> If you're talking about momandpopshop.com, the same applies. 20:04 < jessta> defectiv: my laptop runs at 600Mhz to save power 20:04 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:05 < defectiv> jessta: a) how often are most people away from a power outlet when using their laptops? 20:05 < WalterMundt> defectiv: so you're talking about things that are neither large service providers (or even hoping to become such without rewriting their infrastructure) nor consumer-grade application software... 20:05 < jessta> defectiv: it's a laptop, that's kind of the point 20:05 < dho> jessta: you're apparently not the general use case of a laptop. 20:05 < defectiv> b) even 600mhz is fast enough that google maps probably is "good enough", no? 20:06 < jessta> yeah, it's good enough 20:06 < vegai> there are plenty of problems for which ruby is too slow, cannot we just leave it at that. This is trivially true. 20:06 -!- tav [n=tav@89.243.205.194] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06 < defectiv> WalterMundt: i'm talking about the vast majority of web sites/apps. 20:06 < skelterjohn> it's clear that defectiv will accept no rational argument in favor of a language that can run code quickly. sort of pointless to try to convince him. 20:07 < defectiv> that have to scale, but don't scale to the extent that a 50% reduction in hardware requirements and power consumption would be worth the salary of an employee or two. 20:07 -!- tav [n=tav@89.243.205.194] has joined #go-nuts 20:07 < dho> defectiv: Right, and the people who do need the speed have seriously in-depth architectural designs that are scaled beyond just having more hardware running the same thing. 20:07 < defectiv> uh, i _did_ accept that there are use cases where performance trumps productivity. 20:07 < dho> Your initial argument did not provide that provision. :P 20:08 < jessta> defectiv: but why write code just for the vast majority? 20:08 < slashus2> defectiv: There is the possibility that a programming language will be able to run fast code and allow for quick development. This is what we are all shooting for. Having a nice balance between them is optimal. 20:08 < skelterjohn> he was lamenting go's small standard library 20:08 < skelterjohn> which is valid 20:08 < skelterjohn> and temporary, hopefully 20:08 < dho> In any case, to get back to things like array.max(), skelterjohn's point is also valid: there are plenty of arrays that don't have a max. 20:08 -!- aho [n=nya@g228022036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION"] 20:09 < defectiv> slashus2: and my problem with Go is that it seems, ostensibly, to have that potential. but then it seems to throw in some not-very-useful complexity and then to lack a lot of things that just seem so fundamental. 20:09 < jessta> such as? 20:09 < defectiv> here's an example. i'm writing this election simulation to see whether, with score voting, it helps or hurts candidates to be perceived as "frontrunners". 20:09 < skelterjohn> I would be surprised if we never see a package/function listStuff.Max(array of interfac{greaterThan(other) bool}) 20:09 < skelterjohn> modulo syntax 20:09 < defectiv> i'll paste the ruby code somewhere. 20:10 < slashus2> That `may` be the case at this early stage, but I don't think that is any reason to give up or to think that it is futile to work toward an even more useful language. 20:10 < dho> (Yes, do keep in mind you're dealing with a language that has been publically available for just about a month and a half) 20:11 < dho> Ruby's interfaces have matured for over a decade. 20:11 -!- gracchus1 [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:11 < dho> (That's not to say that Go will ever contain any similar functionality in respects that you desire, but it is food for thought.) 20:11 < defectiv> okay, here's one thing about Go that has driven me a bit bonkers. why can't i define methods on e.g. int or string? 20:12 < dho> They are not objects. 20:12 < defectiv> well, so what? 20:12 < defectiv> or, alternatively, why not? 20:12 < dho> Because Go isn't an OO language? 20:12 < skelterjohn> you can, in your own package 20:12 < skelterjohn> type MyString string 20:12 < defectiv> in ruby i could type "puts [1, 4, 7].max" and get 7. so freakin simple. 20:12 < skelterjohn> func (s *MyString) foo() {...} 20:13 < dho> func (m *MyString) foo() {} 20:13 < dho> hah 20:13 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-6-232.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #go-nuts [] 20:13 < defectiv> that doesn't work. 20:13 < skelterjohn> i disagree? 20:13 < dho> No? It works great for me. 20:13 < skelterjohn> maybe you aren't doing something quite right. the tutorials need work too. 20:13 < defectiv> i can't then say "print("hello".to_upper_case())" 20:14 < skelterjohn> that's because "hello" is a string 20:14 < skelterjohn> not a MyString 20:14 < defectiv> i can say MyString("hello").to_upper_case() 20:14 < skelterjohn> yep 20:14 < defectiv> exactly! 20:14 < skelterjohn> one of the commandments of this language: always explicit 20:14 < dho> What you propose would slow go down considerably, would bloat binaries, and complicate the runtime. 20:14 < dho> I don't think the gain is worth the pain. 20:14 < dho> And I think most would agree. 20:15 < defectiv> you don't think that functionality could be added efficiently? 20:15 < maikeru|> It's not much functionality you're adding, if any. 20:15 < defectiv> it's huge. 20:15 < dho> No, because then you get a bikeshed about which operations string type gets 20:15 < skelterjohn> defectiv: how is the language to know what kind of "hello" you mean? 20:15 < defectiv> when i wrote this program in ruby, it took so little time. i could just crank it out. everything just worked. 20:15 < skelterjohn> what if you have "type A string \n type B string" 20:15 < maikeru|> skelterjohn: Exactly. 20:15 < skelterjohn> and both have a version of to_upper_case 20:15 < defectiv> "hello" is a string. 20:16 < skelterjohn> how will the language know which to use? you have to tell it explicitly 20:16 < skelterjohn> that's the point 20:16 < skelterjohn> some languages have implicit ways to do this 20:16 < skelterjohn> they get confusing 20:16 < maikeru|> Besides, telling it explicitly is clearer to the other programmers, I'd think. 20:16 < skelterjohn> go decided to draw the line early 20:16 < defectiv> it would do the version for the right type. 20:16 < skelterjohn> "right type"... 20:16 < defectiv> yes. 20:16 < defectiv> "hello" is not of type A or B 20:16 < skelterjohn> how would a person, even, know which one was right if there were two that fit 20:17 < maikeru|> defectiv: And who's to say which is the right type? 20:17 < dho> ok, so say that you pass a type A down an interface{} 20:17 < skelterjohn> well, if it's just a string, then there is no to_upper_case() method 20:17 < defectiv> some_word := A("hello") 20:17 < dho> It looks like an A. 20:17 < dho> But it looks like a B 20:17 < dho> but it looks like a string. 20:17 < defectiv> skelterjohn: yes, that is my complaint! 20:17 < skelterjohn> there are some string helpers in the strings package 20:18 < defectiv> i can't say func (word string) to_upper_case() string {} 20:18 < dho> So now communications channels need to push down additional information 20:18 < skelterjohn> defectiv: of course not - your code doesn't own string 20:18 < defectiv> but they require you to say e.g. to_upper_case("some string") 20:18 < skelterjohn> painful, i realize 20:18 < defectiv> who cares whether it owns it? why not at least let it add methods within its own scope?? 20:18 < dho> I find that much more clear reading than "string".toupper() 20:18 < defectiv> and not affect other packages. 20:18 < defectiv> what?! 20:19 < dho> defectiv: My background is C. 20:19 < skelterjohn> defectiv: then you have a different type. for isntance, that type would implement an interface wtih the to_upper_case method. if you tried to pass that string to another function in another package 20:19 < skelterjohn> then that package wouldn't know about your special code 20:19 < skelterjohn> and thigns would explode 20:19 < skelterjohn> bottom line: can't modify types that aren't yours 20:19 < defectiv> when a method is part of the class, it's like namespacing. it keeps it clear what functions you have. you don't have these "floating" functions. you can even say String.instance_methods and get all the instance methods that are defined. 20:20 < dho> where is my goddamn tow truck 20:20 < dho> defectiv: so you're proposing that Go become an OO language. 20:20 < dho> I don't think you'll get that. 20:20 < dho> It's easy enough to implement OO concepts in Go 20:20 < defectiv> it IS an OO language according to what's his face in the Go talk at Google. 20:21 < dho> Sorry, you're proposing that native processor types become objects 20:21 < defectiv> it doesn't do inheritance, but its interfaces provide a similar type of functionality, and you have structs with methods. it behaves in an OO way. 20:21 < dho> I suppose you want integer.add(2) as well? 20:21 < maikeru|> dho: Ooh, can we have that? Please? 20:21 < defectiv> of course. 20:21 < dho> How is that better than integer += 2 20:21 < defectiv> well, in ruby "4 + 5" is the same as 4.+(5) 20:22 < dho> I think you want Perl. 20:22 <+iant> one problem with permitting programs to define methods on basic types is that it means that a single type won't have the same method set in all packages, which makes runtime interface conversion complex 20:22 < defectiv> i hate perl. 20:22 < skelterjohn> iant: yeah i mentioned that 20:22 <+iant> sorry, missed it 20:22 < defectiv> iant well that was comparitively illuminating. 20:22 < skelterjohn> so did he 20:22 < dho> defectiv: if you're happy with ruby, why not use ruby? 20:22 < defectiv> i do. 20:23 < defectiv> i'm having a philsophical discussion about Go. 20:23 < dho> Ok, so why are you trying to turn $otherlanguage into ruby? 20:23 < defectiv> well, i'd like to see it do SOME things more like ruby. 20:23 < dho> philosophically, Go is not Ruby and does not desire to be 20:23 < defectiv> in general, i like Go a lot. it is conceptually very interesting. 20:23 < skelterjohn> dho: i don't think that is the tack to take. i think that rather than saying "go is go, if you don't like it, don't use it", we should say "go is go. you can do lots of cool things in go, maybe you should use it" 20:23 < defectiv> it just seems to have a few rough edges. 20:24 < dho> skelterjohn: Sure, but when you've exhausted how you would do similar things in Go and that's not good enough, the answer is use what you like 20:24 < skelterjohn> i think we started out exhausted from the previous argument 20:24 < defectiv> check out this program i wrote in ruby that i'm trying to port to Go. http://pastie.org/759208 20:24 < skelterjohn> :) 20:24 -!- ikke [n=ikke@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has joined #go-nuts 20:24 -!- gasreaa [n=atwong@nat/slide/x-bxtsniyumjzdgxow] has joined #go-nuts 20:25 < defectiv> here i make a "two-dimensional array" of the voters' utilities for the set of candidates. => ballots = (0...NUM_VOTERS).to_a.map {(0...NUM_CANDIDATES).to_a.map {rand}} 20:25 -!- gasreaa [n=atwong@nat/slide/x-bxtsniyumjzdgxow] has left #go-nuts [] 20:25 < skelterjohn> i don't know what the second half of that meant 20:25 -!- yaroslav [n=yaroslav@ppp83-237-190-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #go-nuts 20:25 < dho> I think it randomly distributes a list of candidates to a map. 20:25 * maikeru| wonders if he's too picky to want to go make those equal signs line up at the top of that ruby code 20:26 < skelterjohn> oh, i think i get it 20:26 < Norgg> dho: map is a method on an array that does something to each element of it and returns a new array. 20:26 < skelterjohn> map as the list operation, not the datastructure 20:26 < defectiv> i'm just making a list of random numbers 20:27 < dho> oh, right. 20:27 < defectiv> in Go i'm iterating through an outer then an inner loop and then doing this => utilities[voter_index][candidate_index] = rand.Int(); 20:27 < Norgg> foo[NUM_VOTERS][NUM_CANDIDATES] filled with rand. 20:27 < defectiv> yeah. 20:27 < defectiv> it just feels so verbose. 20:28 < dho> Aha, but you wouldn't have to explain what you're trying to do for 5 minutes like you just did ;) 20:28 < defectiv> i wrote an "iterate" function where i pass it a number and a function and it runs n times, passing the current index as the only parameter to that function. 20:28 < Norgg> dho: It's fairly clean if you know ruby. 20:29 < defectiv> to rubyists, i think that line is pretty clear. i do see some ruby code at my job (zendesk.com, a rails help desk application) that is pretty obfuscated. 20:29 < dho> I'd probably have grokked it if it were python, to be fair. 20:29 < Norgg> Should be on more than one line ideally. 20:29 < skelterjohn> [[rand() for n in range(cols)] for m in range(rows)] 20:29 < defectiv> i went to KU, in the home of the Lawerence Journal-World where Django was born. 20:29 < dho> i've done some work in django 20:29 < skelterjohn> no idea what django is 20:30 < dho> web app framework 20:30 < dho> like ror for python 20:30 < skelterjohn> heh 20:30 < skelterjohn> no idea what ror is :) 20:30 < maikeru|> I'm mixed on my feelings for Django. I go through love/hate cycles with it sometimes. 20:30 < maikeru|> skelterjohn: ruby on rails 20:30 < defectiv> Ruby on Rails buddy. 20:30 < skelterjohn> leave me to my monte-carlo sampling! 20:30 < defectiv> :) 20:30 < defectiv> i love monte-carlo stuff. 20:30 < defectiv> i'm obsessed with election methods. 20:31 < defectiv> the idea of this simulation is to determine whether, with score voting, there is the same incentive for a candidate to be perceived as "electable" like there is with our normal vote-for-one system. 20:31 < skelterjohn> don't know much about that. most of the stuff i do these days involves MCMC (markov chain monte-carlo), a way to do approximate inference 20:31 < dho> so, basically you don't want to write two loops to assign a variable value to an array 20:31 < defectiv> dho that's what i did. 20:31 < dho> right, that's what you have a problem with 20:31 < defectiv> like iterate(NUM_VOTERS, func(voter_index int){ 20:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EBtw by [Robert Griesemer] in go/src/pkg/go/parser/ -- simplify some code that is using vectors 20:31 < dho> (for example) 20:32 < defectiv> here's what i think would be a nice compromise. 20:32 -!- cmarcelo [n=cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has quit ["leaving"] 20:32 < dho> as an aside, how to i turn on touchpad clicking on this silly macbook 20:32 < skelterjohn> tap clicking 20:32 < dho> someone in here must know; mouse and keyboard under the system settings thing doesn't have anything for the mouse 20:32 < skelterjohn> or press it in clicking 20:32 < skelterjohn> <- macbook 20:33 < defectiv> i wish Go would include some basic iterators, so i could do e.g. 20.times(some_function(index int)) 20:33 < skelterjohn> trackpad prefs, dho? 20:33 < dho> oh, there's a hidden trackpad menu item 20:33 < maikeru|> dho: lemme reboot my mbp to os x and find out. 20:33 < dho> maikeru|: no need 20:33 < maikeru|> Should be...ah, nevermind. 20:33 < dho> skelterjohn: yes, it was hidden right next to `keyboard & mouse' 20:33 < skelterjohn> :) 20:34 < defectiv> okay, so to address my current stumbling block. anyone know a good way to do max and min on an array of ints? 20:34 < defectiv> without writing my own functions.. 20:34 < dho> reverse qsort and take the first value? 20:34 < defectiv> also need to have combinatorials, like "n choose k" 20:34 < defectiv> oh, yeah.. 20:34 < skelterjohn> comb. is def not in there 20:34 < defectiv> tears 20:34 < skelterjohn> um. qsort is not the best way to do that. 20:34 < skelterjohn> though...defectiv doesn't care about performance :) 20:35 <+iant> it's hard to write those functions in Go today because there are no generics; this is a known shortcoming that I hope will be addressed 20:35 < defectiv> lol. 20:35 < dho> skelterjohn: :) 20:35 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35 * dho now has kitty kat 20:35 * dho cannot see responses 20:35 < vegai> reverse sort and [0] will probably be faster than ruby's Int::max, right? :P 20:35 < dho> kitty kat comes with butt-in-face extension 20:35 < defectiv> any of you folks used D at all? i was learning it a bit before Go came out, but i figure there's no point learning it since it will never have the backing that Go will have due to its support by Google. 20:36 < dho> well it is commercially backed. 20:36 < dho> but that's about the extent of my knowledge 20:36 < defectiv> it's Array::max 20:36 < dho> other than digital mars threatening sun for using the name D for its DTrace language 20:36 < skelterjohn> so, defectiv, there are two ways to implement a general max function 20:36 < skelterjohn> one is to use an interface with a compare() method 20:37 < skelterjohn> one is to wait for generics/templates 20:37 < skelterjohn> the first way, i think, would involve changing your array to an array of this sort of interface 20:37 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined #go-nuts 20:37 < skelterjohn> which is "free", according to a theoretical computer scientist 20:37 < defectiv> so if i write a compare() method, then sort() can use it? 20:38 < skelterjohn> since it will take no longer than max 20:38 < skelterjohn> defectiv: i don't know what interface sort() takes, it's in the docs somewhere 20:38 < defectiv> ah, i get it. 20:38 < defectiv> yeah i have it right here... 20:38 < defectiv> thx 20:38 < dho> skelterjohn: how's that different than what i suggested? :P 20:38 < skelterjohn> i forgot what you... of qsort 20:38 < skelterjohn> qsort is log-linear 20:39 < skelterjohn> which is not the same thing, according to a theoretical computer scientist :) 20:39 < skelterjohn> or anyone else, for that matter 20:40 < skelterjohn> well, it's the same according to a mathematician 20:40 < skelterjohn> they generally ask "is it possible?" and stop there. 20:40 < dho> ok. s/q// 20:40 < skelterjohn> sort is no faster... 20:40 < dho> it's precisely what you just suggested! 20:41 < skelterjohn> did not! 20:41 < skelterjohn> i left a blank. someone else filled it in with "sort" 20:42 < defectiv> oooh...who wants to make a Go program to implement David Chaum's anonymous digital currency? that would be neat. 20:42 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@scorpion.mps.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43 < skelterjohn> not familiar with that 20:44 < dho> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_money i guess 20:47 * dho is about to call progressive with a big wtf 20:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5ECgm by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- fix dumb bug: must write out default values inside arrays and slices 20:51 < maikeru|> grm 20:51 < dho> bl 20:51 < maikeru|> due to the nature of this, this client is having me do this part of the programming on the live machine 20:51 < maikeru|> I'm always uncomfortable with that. 20:52 < dho> heh 20:52 < WalterMundt> that can be nerve-wracking 20:52 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52 < dho> heh 20:52 < dho> `NYC trading firm hiring sysadmins with functional prog. experience' 20:53 < skelterjohn> i feel like they meant "practical" instead of "functional" 20:53 < Gracenotes> where they will proceed to not use said experience? 20:53 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 20:53 < WalterMundt> do the wrong thing, and the live code is broken and/or live data is nuked...I really don't like to be in that spot 20:53 < skelterjohn> but who knows 20:53 < Gracenotes> us functional programming fanatics do tend to know what we're doing, though 20:53 < dho> skelterjohn: nope, they're looking for sysadmins who do OCaml 20:53 < kfx> 'we' 20:54 < skelterjohn> i can never bring myself to try OCaml, just because of the name really 20:54 < WalterMundt> I keep thinking that I ought to take a look at some more of the newer functional languages sometime 20:54 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 20:54 < dho> i keep trying to learn haskell and ocaml. i get about 3 chapters in before i realize that it's kind of like me learning dvorak 20:55 < dho> fun in theory but a pain in the ass in practice. 20:55 -!- michaelh [n=mux@66-169-117-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:55 < WalterMundt> I feel like functional languages exercise a part of my brain that needs to be in better shape 20:55 < dho> heh 20:56 < dho> `now, to understand how this works, you'll need to have had a strong background in calculus and discrete math' 20:56 < dho> *huge mathematically backed example* 20:56 < dho> `and *THATS* how you print to the screen' 20:56 -!- andrewh [n=andrewh@host86-131-155-224.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:56 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56 < skelterjohn> i'm fine with that :) 20:56 < Gracenotes> 'main = putStrLn "hello world"' 20:57 -!- andrewh [n=andrewh@host86-131-155-224.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:58 < dho> i'm clearly being facetious 20:58 < dho> but only mildly so :) 20:58 < maikeru|> WalterMundt: Well, that revision did not delete any client data. So I think that's a good sign so far :) 20:59 < Gracenotes> functional graph reduction is pretty intuitive 20:59 < Gracenotes> well, about as intuitive as OOP inheritance patterns once you're exposed to it for a bit 20:59 < dho> it requires a style of thinking and problem-solving i do not possess 21:00 < skelterjohn> i thought that, i think it was rob pike, said it well in the go video - when you have inheritance you tend to spend most of your time designing inheritance trees 21:00 < skelterjohn> that struck home to me 21:00 < dho> I feel like with procedural programs, I tell it how to do a solution 21:00 < WalterMundt> I'm reading ejabberd code right now. the functional/FSM server model is kind of interesting 21:00 < dho> and with functional languages, it's like i'm specifying how a solution would manifest 21:00 < dho> sounds subtly different in words, but i just don't think that way 21:00 < Gracenotes> dho: the simplest way I tend to describe it: with functional programming, you're not running procedures. you're combining expressions. 21:01 < dho> yes, i've read / heard that before 21:01 < skelterjohn> i like'd dho's explanation better 21:01 < skelterjohn> it's how i think of it, too 21:01 < Gracenotes> it makes the flow of data a lot more clear, too. 21:01 < dho> except maybe s/how to do a solution/how to solve a problem/ 21:01 < skelterjohn> in functional programming (and my functional experience is limited to scheme), i just tell it what the solution is 21:01 < WalterMundt> I feel almost equally at home in either camp, which I suppose is why I like languages that let you mix idioms 21:02 < dho> that and the functional purists scare me 21:02 < Gracenotes> dho: complicated inheritance trees is one of the points of OOP 21:02 < Gracenotes> I do not like 21:02 < Gracenotes> and that was more @ skelterjohn, re. rob pike 21:02 < Gracenotes> the reason it exists is because dynamic dispatch in these languages is so limited 21:02 < skelterjohn> i TA'd for a class "software methodology" where we did OO design in java 21:02 < WalterMundt> I've rarely seen an inheritance tree that made the flow of data in a program clearer; most often it's the opposite 21:03 < skelterjohn> and twisting some models to fit the single inheritance idiom was tricky sometimes 21:03 < Gracenotes> that, combined with the sometimes contradictory need to reuse code, can result in some messed-up trees 21:03 < Gracenotes> IS-A is a strong relationship, much stronger than uses-same-code-as. 21:04 < dho> I'll put it another way 21:04 < dho> Functional languages are why I end up sounding like a douchebag when people tell me I'm really smart. I say `I guess.' 21:05 < skelterjohn> fun things to do on the internet: brag about people telling you you're smart =p 21:05 < defectiv> is google (or any of you) using Go "professionally"? 21:05 < dho> Yeah, you sound like a douchebag either way 21:05 < defectiv> skelterjohn: lols 21:05 < skelterjohn> defectiv: Go isn't ready for it, in my opinion 21:05 < dho> Though that's also probably partially due to the environment I keep myself in. 21:05 < skelterjohn> there are memory issues 21:05 < defectiv> it's so funny you mention that, cause my mom just told me how smart i am. 21:05 < WalterMundt> *facepalm* 21:05 < defectiv> also, matt gonzalez just emailed me about having lunch in his law firm soon. good times. 21:05 < Gracenotes> well, it tickles my brain. plus it gives me an excuse to learn about discrete math. 21:06 < dho> it's so funny that you mention that, cause your mom just.... nevermind. 21:06 < Gracenotes> I just have an unhealthy attraction to theory :( 21:06 < dho> (sorry, had to) 21:06 < defectiv> dho nice 21:06 < skelterjohn> defectiv: for instance, if you have a one-off goroutine that just pumps values into a channel in an infinite loop, it will never get cleaned up (even if that channel is forgotten about everywhere else) 21:06 < defectiv> theory is more fun than practical stuff. 21:06 < skelterjohn> this is relevant for things like Vector.Iter() 21:06 < defectiv> huh? 21:06 < dho> Anyway, back on what I was saying. Since I've had no scholastic experience with anything outside of high school, I've pretty much kept myself in the company of people who are worlds smarter than I am 21:07 < dho> and ever will be 21:07 < skelterjohn> so, Vector.Iter() pumps all the values it has into a channel 21:07 < skelterjohn> if another thread calls Vector.Iter() and reads some, but not all, of those values, the spawned goroutine will never be cleaned up 21:07 < defectiv> dho that's hard sometimes. like this dude i know who worked at intel and now google, that i studied computer engineering with. he just always made me feel so inferior. 21:07 < dho> Well, I do it because I have to learn shit somehow 21:07 < defectiv> he could recite maxwell's equations a year after taknig electromag with me. wtf. 21:08 < dho> and again, not to be douchebaggy, but if i hadn't, there'd be no way that i'd be making the salary i do now 21:08 < skelterjohn> well that's useful. 21:08 < defectiv> it's like, how can your brain do these things that my brain cannot? i hate you... and want you to die. 21:08 < Gracenotes> a good system for parametric polymorphism prevents your language from becoming a static typing system implemented on top of a dynamic typing system implemented on top of another static typing system 21:08 < dho> It's humbling at times 21:08 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@cpe-67-241-129-149.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08 < Gracenotes> make it so, Go :| 21:08 < dho> But also causes me to perhaps undervalue myself. 21:08 < dho> Which is a pain in the ass at times 21:08 < defectiv> Gracenotes English 21:09 < dho> It's hard to objectively know how good you are if you know a ton of people who are that much more experienced / capable 21:09 < defectiv> does Go do that? does C++? 21:09 < skelterjohn> what are you referring to 21:09 < Gracenotes> Go has a static typing system. weird interface{} hacks are used. It is converted at some point back. in all this type safety is ensured in individual conversions... but not the entire operation. 21:10 < skelterjohn> oh 21:10 < taruti> Gracenotes: interface{} is mostly needed because the current lack of generics. 21:10 < Gracenotes> yes, as I said. "good system for parametric polymorphism prevents your language from becoming [...]" 21:10 < taruti> and in some places to mean "anything that reflection will grok" 21:10 < dho> So, as an aside, if generics come in, what's the use case for interface{} 21:11 < skelterjohn> unless generics are defined with functions, then... 21:11 < taruti> dho: things wanting to use refletion. 21:11 < skelterjohn> the same use they already have 21:11 < taruti> dho: e.g. enc/binary, gob, ... 21:11 < skelterjohn> ah, i get it now 21:12 < skelterjohn> maybe i will come back with a more appropriate response 21:12 < Gracenotes> dho: well. Implementing an open union types, since Go doesn't even have a finite union type (tagged union). 21:12 < skelterjohn> no guarantees 21:12 < Gracenotes> that might be a use for interface{} 21:12 < taruti> Gracenotes: that is being fixed. 21:13 < Gracenotes> yes, that would be nice. parametrically polymorphic unions would be very awesome too. I just like Hindley-Milner a bit, you know, sort of a flaw of mine >_> 21:13 < skelterjohn> what Gracenotes said. i can add two things to a list that are both compare()-able and then sort it. with generics its likely that they'd have to be the same exact type 21:13 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-6-232.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 21:14 < taruti> http://code.google.com/p/go/source/browse/doc/devel/roadmap.html 21:14 < skelterjohn> http://golang.org/doc/devel/roadmap.html =p 21:15 < dho> it's been changed since then 21:15 < skelterjohn> oh 21:15 < skelterjohn> fine. 21:15 -!- ixaeon [n=ixaeon@c-98-244-10-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:15 < taruti> the website roadmap is out-of-date 21:15 < Gracenotes> ah, so they've removed exceptions as an active topic of discussion? oh, or added it. 21:15 < skelterjohn> http://localhost:6060/doc/devel/roadmap.html :) 21:16 < skelterjohn> "Exceptions. An active topic of discussion." 21:16 < Gracenotes> hrm 21:16 < dho> heh. 21:16 < dho> in #plan9: 16:18 < binary> newsham: I'm not looking at glenda's private things. 21:17 -!- gracchus1 [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:17 < taruti> skelterjohn: http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?spec=svn44763425d6a5b3404535c2f0d37413f66dcbde53&r=b9e2538b899dada32e6cbb28437fd46d52955e24 21:17 < skelterjohn> C++: where only your friends can touch your privates? 21:17 < dagle> The things I really like in functional langs: tools for proving and pattern matching. 21:17 < kfx> it's just as well, skelterjohn: that's where the bugs are 21:18 < Gracenotes> mm. finite union without pattern matching, eh. And you know, we already do have switch statements. 21:18 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:19 < skelterjohn> once in highschool, in a C++ course, the teacher was gone for the day. so the sub had us explaining the material up front instead of lecture. of course, i started out with my "pubic" member variables... 21:19 < skelterjohn> which would have been funny to me if it had been on purpose 21:19 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:19 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@cpe-67-241-129-149.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:19 < skelterjohn> and was funny to everyone else as a matter of course 21:19 < maikeru|> *shudders at the memory of highschool C++ course* 21:20 < Gracenotes> it's not the same when you're not evaluating to WHNF, you know ;_; */me shaddups* 21:20 < dagle> Gracenotes: Pretty close but not the same. 21:20 < skelterjohn> WHNF? something something normal form? 21:21 -!- ixaeon [n=ixaeon@c-98-244-10-240.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["oo"] 21:21 -!- defectiv [n=clays@or-67-76-144-131.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:21 < dho> heh, c++ in high school 21:22 < maikeru|> I had to hold my tongue so many times from correcting the instructor. It's not as if I'm a C++ master or anything, but there were basic things he could not even comprehend. 21:22 < dagle> c++ the lang that can make anybody hate programming. 21:22 < skelterjohn> my teacher was completely competent 21:22 < skelterjohn> so that wasn't an issue 21:22 < dho> possibly related: anybody know of graduate degree programs in cs for people without bachelors, no desire for gen. ed. courses, and a professional schedule? 21:22 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:22 < maikeru|> skelterjohn: Ah. I'd not have minded if that were the case. 21:22 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:23 < skelterjohn> dho: rare to have a graduate program that doesn't require a BS. but i bet if you took the CS subject exam and did well, and talked to people in the dep, you could convince them 21:23 < dho> i'd probably do poorly 21:24 < skelterjohn> it's harder this way, but at the end of the day it's a room full of humans that decide who gets in 21:24 < Gracenotes> weak head normal form.. evaluating to find the first data constructor. possibly more, if it's more efficient and provably correct. 21:24 -!- Metaphis [n=cyanure@81-65-189-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 21:24 < maikeru|> hrm, schooling. that reminds me, I need to finish the essays for my college apps by thursday 21:24 < dho> though i must admit: i have no idea what higher education cs courses leave you with after your senior year 21:24 < skelterjohn> dho: you have to convince them somehow that you would be able to perform in the courses. beyond that, they just want your money (for a master's) 21:25 < dho> if i got a masters, i'm sure i could do phd from there 21:25 * dho wants to teach 21:25 -!- shasbot [n=shasbot@ip70-171-218-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25 < skelterjohn> dho: your best bet would probably be just to do the undergrad :) i don't see a reasonable path to that goal, otherwise 21:26 < skelterjohn> though you might not consider undergrad a reasonable path either 21:26 < dho> i wouldn't be able to complete it. 21:26 < dho> that would be 4+ years of boring 21:26 -!- General13372 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:27 < skelterjohn> maybe you could audit some of the upper level CS courses at your local uni. then take the CS subject GRE 21:27 < skelterjohn> then apply for master's 21:28 < WalterMundt> huh, I didn 21:28 < WalterMundt> didn't even know that was possible 21:28 < dagle> dho: You do a lecture if you come to sweden. You will even get paid. But you will have to pay for the trip. :( 21:28 < dho> i bet peter froelich would have some ideas 21:28 < dho> he's local 21:28 < dho> http://www.sci.kuniv.edu.kw/graduate/msc-computer-science/comprehensive-entry-exam-samples <- ridiculous 21:29 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: anyone can apply. some things make it harder, but like i said before it's a room full of people that decide whom to admit, and if you can convince them somehow, that's what you need 21:29 -!- c0nfl|ct [n=tiago@248-122.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #go-nuts 21:29 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:29 < dho> well, questions 1-3 anyway 21:30 < skelterjohn> you just lack vocabulary 21:30 < skelterjohn> if you audit some upper level courses that stuff would be clearer 21:30 < dho> i lack mathematical background as well 21:30 < skelterjohn> that's also covered in upper level CS 21:31 < skelterjohn> what kind of stuff are you interested for a masters? 21:31 < dagle> dho: 2006 exam? 21:31 < dho> dagle: yeah 21:31 < dho> skelterjohn: don't really care about a masters, that won't get me into teaching at any respectable school 21:31 < dho> skelterjohn: i just see it as a means to a phd 21:31 < skelterjohn> also, any general CS exam is going to be really hard to score perfectly on. CS is a very wide discipline 21:32 < dagle> dho: What about them? They are kinda schoolbook examples. 21:32 -!- smcq_ [n=smcq@173-26-33-249.client.mchsi.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:32 < skelterjohn> dho: i mean, what topic are you interested in? 21:32 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has joined #go-nuts 21:32 < dho> OS/network mostly 21:32 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:32 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:32 < dho> My last 2 jobs have been freebsd kernel hacking and high-performance smtp server hacking 21:33 < dho> at my last job we had masters level students come in and they really didn't have much clue as to practical development 21:33 < dho> so i get torn on the subject entirely. 21:33 < skelterjohn> most schools don't teach practical dev. at all. 21:33 < dho> college kids need to learn that stuff. 21:34 < skelterjohn> computer science and software engineering overlap, but are not the same thing 21:34 < maikeru|> What is the difference? I've been a bit confused on that. 21:34 < skelterjohn> i learned to program before college. i learned only a tiny bit in college 21:34 < skelterjohn> the difference? for instance, i do machine learning. it's mostly math. 21:34 < dho> maikeru|: software engineering is more about process and application while CS is more about theory 21:34 < skelterjohn> but to do anything useful with this math, i need to be able to write good software 21:34 < dho> and CS is broad 21:34 < maikeru|> dho: Ah, okay. 21:34 < dho> while sweng is a facet of CS 21:34 -!- c0n [n=tiago@248-122.dial.nortenet.pt] has joined #go-nuts 21:35 < dho> sort of 21:35 < skelterjohn> it certainly is. 21:35 < skelterjohn> but you can be a good computer scientist without knowing much about writing good software 21:35 < skelterjohn> and vice versa 21:35 < dho> unfortunately. 21:36 < dho> In all my professional experience, the best people have been in the middle of that. 21:36 < dho> reasonably good computer scientists, reasonably good software developers 21:36 < dho> (of course, my experience is as a software engineer) 21:36 < skelterjohn> i'm a much better programmer than a mathematician 21:36 < skelterjohn> started to really get into the math stuff only in grad school 21:36 < Gracenotes> funny thing about mathematicians being programmers, too... 21:36 -!- Ryan____ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-166-221.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:36 < jessta> the problem is that doing CS is expected of programmings, but that's mostly due to the fact that CS used to be the only computing degree 21:37 < skelterjohn> as such, i will never be a professor :) 21:37 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: interesting. I dropped out of college to take a job. Someday I might be interested in graduate-level classes. I'm perfectly capable of picking up most undergrad-level stuff on my own, and would generally rather read a textbook than listen to lectures, anyway. 21:37 < jessta> *programmers 21:37 < dho> Anyway, my desire is really to make a course for kids who will end up writing code for a living 21:37 < dho> i say kids; i'm 26 21:37 < dho> so 21:37 < jessta> so people who want to be software engineers do CS and are useless at software engineering 21:38 < dho> jessta: right; that's sort of the problem i want to address 21:38 < skelterjohn> jessta: good programmers started early 21:38 < WalterMundt> jessta: it's a real problem. ACM ICPC saved me from that to a degree, but that's not a path for everyone 21:38 < skelterjohn> and studied on their own 21:38 < skelterjohn> rarely does a set of courses make someone into a good programmer 21:38 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: that's the question though 21:38 < vsmatck1> There was a good article on this subject recently by Stroustrup. http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2010/1/55760-what-should-we-teach-new-software-developers-why/fulltext 21:39 < jessta> I specifically did CS because I like CS, but my CS degree contained way too much software engineering 21:39 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: can we do better than CS courses at that, for people who weren't writing C in middle school? 21:39 < dho> skelterjohn: A set of courses should be able to prepare someone for that. 21:39 < jessta> for the same reason as above 21:39 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: I think teaching people C in middle school should be the norm :) 21:39 < vsmatck1> He's kind-of unique in that he was a software engineer for a long time before becoming a professor. He also teaches intro programming classes. 21:39 < dho> I didn't start with C until I was around 21, and then not professionally until I was 23 or so. 21:39 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: ooh, I like the way you think 21:39 < skelterjohn> dho: any experience before that? if not, then you are exceptional 21:40 < dho> maybe 19 or 20 21:40 < skelterjohn> in my opinion 21:40 < jessta> for some reason employers to employ programmers who have a software engineering degree that is called "computer science" 21:40 < dho> I did qbasiclol when I was 11/12 21:40 < Gracenotes> you and me both, dho :o 21:40 < skelterjohn> any early programming helps 21:40 < skelterjohn> my first programming language was hypertalk (we had a mac) 21:40 < dho> from that, it was html, minor MINOR dabblings in perl at 16, and then PHP when I turned 17 21:40 < dagle> I would say CS course are what you make the to. If you don't want to learn anything you can pass the course with out it. But if you want to learn stuff it's a great way of doing so. 21:40 < vsmatck1> At my school they wanted everyone to do their own work so they forbid working on programs in teams *facepalm*. 21:40 < jessta> dho: same here 21:40 < dho> oh, yeah, and i dicked around with object logo when i was <10 though i remember none of it 21:41 < WalterMundt> I started with pascal and then went to basic/C and then bash/C++ and later Java/etc. 21:41 < skelterjohn> logo was fun 21:41 < dho> it helped that wrox press was in such shambles that i got to coauthor a couple books on php 21:41 < jessta> qbasic at around 10 and php 16-17, then C 21:41 -!- ikke [n=ikke@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has quit [] 21:41 -!- c0nfl|ct [n=tiago@248-122.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:41 < dho> jessta: I guess you're also around my age then? 21:41 < dagle> torbo pascal around 11. :D 21:42 < skelterjohn> i think that the #go-nuts irc chan might overrepresent those who started coding when young 21:42 < WalterMundt> dagle: same here, oh man 21:42 < jessta> dho: currently 24 21:42 < dho> so, similar. 21:42 < dho> skelterjohn: likely. 21:42 < WalterMundt> just a tad 21:42 < skelterjohn> i wonder if i'm the oldest one talking now...28 heh 21:42 * WalterMundt is also 28 21:42 < jessta> got a few months left on my CS degree 21:42 < dho> skelterjohn: But it doesn't change that kids coming out of college are still grossly unable to perform professionally 21:42 < maikeru|> Grm, guess I'm on the younger side. 18. 21:42 -!- c0n [n=tiago@248-122.dial.nortenet.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43 < dho> i went to work straight out of high school 21:43 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43 < skelterjohn> sucks. dorm life is a blast ;) 21:43 < dho> i'll be on my decade in a few months 21:43 < dho> skelterjohn: nah, i moved to holland when i was 18, i didn't miss anything 21:43 < dagle> We need to get ken to this channel so we all can feel young again. XD 21:43 < skelterjohn> well, i don't know what holland is like 21:43 < dho> heh. 21:44 < skelterjohn> but freshman dorms are 24/7 parties 21:44 < WalterMundt> not mine 21:44 < dho> that would definitely not have been good for me 21:44 < skelterjohn> i don't think i'd survive in that situation any more 21:44 < skelterjohn> it wasn't particularly good for me either 21:44 < skelterjohn> but it was fun 21:44 < WalterMundt> it was full of cs and comp eng majors, everyone was playing FPS's in their rooms or watching pirated anime on their computers 21:44 < skelterjohn> <- state school 21:45 < dho> There's got to be a way for self-taught individuals with massive amounts of practical experience to enter college without having to re-take english and history courses 21:45 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has joined #go-nuts 21:45 < dho> I'm a published author, I shouldn't need english :( 21:45 < dho> (says he who did not capitalize English) 21:45 < skelterjohn> not if you wanta bachelor's degree. a BS means something, and it includes english and history etc 21:45 < skelterjohn> but you could get into a master's program 21:46 < skelterjohn> it's just harder 21:46 < dho> We'll see what happens 21:46 < dho> Peter offered to let me talk to some of his students 21:46 < skelterjohn> but keep in mind - the GRE is not really about programming :) 21:46 < dho> so that's got to carry some weight. 21:46 < dho> eh, i can re-learn algebra 2 21:46 < skelterjohn> it's theory and hardware. sort of a weird mix. 21:46 < dho> oh 21:47 < dho> I thought the GRE was just general graduate 21:47 < skelterjohn> the CS subject GRE, that is. 21:47 < dho> ah 21:47 < skelterjohn> the general one is trivial...the math section anyway 21:47 < skelterjohn> didn't try too hard for the other sections and i performed acordingly 21:47 < WalterMundt> I took a sample GRE, the vocab stuff on the English side was a little out there to me, and I'm a voracious reader 21:47 < skelterjohn> same WalterMundt 21:48 < dho> My vocabulary decreased when I learned Dutch 21:48 < skelterjohn> though i read scifi rather than 19th centuray brit lit 21:48 < WalterMundt> right 21:48 < WalterMundt> same here, I read mostly things written in the last ~25-30 years 21:48 < dho> (I'm sure I'd never say `voracious' and I would probably get an answer wrong in one of those x is to y as a is to b-style questions) 21:48 < skelterjohn> silly "contemporary vocabulary" will get you nowhere. 21:49 * dho decides the tow truck is not coming. 21:49 -!- b00m_chef__ [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has joined #go-nuts 21:49 < dho> brb, need to call my claim rep :( 21:49 < WalterMundt> good luck 21:49 < maikeru|> Anyone know how University of Chicago's CS department is at all? 21:49 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 21:50 < dho> fail. 21:51 < dho> We'll see what happens. I figure if a professor is letting me impart knowledge to his students, that's got to count for something to an admissions board. 21:51 < dho> I should probably get GRE books then 21:51 < dho> ...and talk to the admissions board 21:51 < skelterjohn> it's not famous for having a CS department, though I'm sure it's very good, maikeru| 21:51 < dho> otoh i have no idea how much longer i'll be in baltimore 21:51 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51 < dho> having a degree from jhu would be nice. 21:52 < skelterjohn> dho: best bet is a masters at a state school, somewhere easier to get in, and then do well , and use that to get into a top tier phd program 21:53 <+iant> I think it kind of depends on what your goals are 21:53 -!- yaroslav [n=yaroslav@ppp83-237-190-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53 -!- Ryan_____ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-170-194.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:53 < skelterjohn> his goal is to teach, i think he said 21:53 -!- Ryan_____ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-170-194.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53 <+iant> ah, then, yes, a Ph.D. from a well-known school is good 21:54 < skelterjohn> and as an insider, i can say that it is a employer's market when it comes to faculty positions 21:55 < dho> We'll see. It's years away yet :\ 21:55 < skelterjohn> true :) 21:59 < dho> huh. 21:59 < dho> http://www.gradschool.umd.edu/gss/non_degree_admission.htm 21:59 < dho> oh wait that's something different entirely 22:00 < dho> maybe i should just do some silly quicktrack undergrad degree with walden or uop 22:01 < skelterjohn> how is that different? 22:01 < skelterjohn> non-degree students 22:01 < skelterjohn> not available for scholarships or assistantships, which i expected 22:01 < dho> yeah, and the requirements it states you need to have a degree. very confusing. 22:01 < skelterjohn> it's talking about two things at once 22:01 < skelterjohn> poorly worded, but i believe it's what you want 22:02 -!- Ryan_ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-170-194.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:05 * dho also has no idea how he'd handle that on top of a job 22:06 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-6-232.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #go-nuts [] 22:06 < dho> hooray for overwhelming :\ 22:06 < vsmatck1> If you're poor enough state school is free in the US. You still have to have a job for living expenses though. 22:06 < dho> i'm not poor enough 22:07 < dho> i'm well off enough that it'll be difficult to get financial aid :P 22:07 < skelterjohn> haven't paid a cent for my grad schooling, but that's because i've had teaching assistantships and, now, research assistantships 22:07 < dho> `well off' 22:07 < vsmatck1> I suppose I was fortunate enough to be extremely poor. *thinks* 22:07 -!- yaroslav [n=yaroslav@ppp83-237-191-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #go-nuts 22:07 < skelterjohn> going to be hard to get away without paying for a master's, if you don't have a BS 22:08 < skelterjohn> but hey, it could happen 22:08 < skelterjohn> maybe your work will pay 22:10 -!- Ryan____ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-166-221.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10 -!- adiabatic [n=adiabati@dsl-206-55-130-248.tstonramp.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:10 -!- b00m_chef__ [n=watr@host-212-68-232-232.brutele.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10 < dho> http://www.phoenix.edu/programs/degree-programs/technology/bachelors/bsit-se/v006.html gak gak gak 22:10 < dho> sigh. 22:10 < dho> this is going to be a very, very awful 10 years. 22:11 < skelterjohn> that looks like a boring program 22:11 < dho> yes it does 22:11 < skelterjohn> "all the stuff you might as well learn on your own" 22:11 < dho> but i would be able to complete it in a reasonable amount of time without having to miss work 22:12 < skelterjohn> a course on .net? can't you just browse a few tutorials? 22:12 < dho> i may as well have completed every single thing on that list. 22:13 < skelterjohn> one course on "algorithms and logic" 22:13 < skelterjohn> :'( 22:13 < dagle> skelterjohn: They tend to call the courses something else. There are not just one. 22:13 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:14 < skelterjohn> perhaps the java courses then 22:14 < dho> the only classes i'd learn anything from are maybe senior level courses, browsing the umd catalog 22:14 < dho> well maybe not. 22:14 < skelterjohn> dho: hubris =p 22:14 < dho> yes, indeed. 22:14 < dho> incidentally, i worked for a company called hubris when i was in holland 22:14 < adiabatic> dho: And you're bothering with the credential to satisfy HR droids, or...? 22:14 < dho> huug bruil internet services 22:14 < dho> adiabatic: i want to teach. 22:15 < adiabatic> ah 22:15 < dho> i've never had a problem getting a (good) job 22:15 < skelterjohn> teaching is a pain 22:15 < skelterjohn> heh 22:15 < dho> eh 22:15 < skelterjohn> i was sort of a bastard of a TA 22:16 < skelterjohn> for grading, i mostly separated things into two groups. "this person gets it" and "this person does not get it" 22:16 < skelterjohn> and put more or less random variance on the numbers reported, as long as there was a divide between those groups 22:16 < skelterjohn> really accurate and systematic grading just takes too much time 22:17 < skelterjohn> 256 people in the channel right now, which makes me happy 22:17 < dho> heh 22:17 < dho> i always notice that sort of thing 22:19 < dho> and am amused beyond how amused i probably should be. 22:21 -!- Ryan_ [n=ryan@cpe-98-27-170-194.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["throng to learn what the heck unity3d does"] 22:23 < gnuvince> Is it possible to initialize a multi-dimension slice? var xs [][]int = [][]int{{1},{2},{3}}; gives me a syntax error 22:23 < skelterjohn> [][]int{[]int{1,2}} 22:23 < skelterjohn> a bit wordy 22:25 < dho> i wonder if i could get a bachelors in something interesting 22:26 < dho> and then do masters in csc 22:26 < dagle> dho: Bachelor in exotic dance! ^^ 22:26 < dho> i was thinking psychology or anthropology 22:27 < skelterjohn> dho: and then minor in CS, take only a few interesting courses 22:27 < dho> interesting cs courses require majors in cs :) 22:27 < skelterjohn> might consider having the major be math, but that's just me 22:27 < dho> that's true 22:27 < skelterjohn> dho: nah. you can get special permission for anything if you ask 22:27 < skelterjohn> and convince the prof you won't fail 22:29 < absud> i did the math thing for my bachelors. butt cs masters programs often require the core cs courses to apply or before starting the grad courses :( 22:29 < dho> i don't have any degree, just gobs of self-taught theory and experience 22:29 < dho> (that's the problem) 22:29 -!- mssm [n=mssmfs@ip-95-221-113-124.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 22:30 < gracchus> hey, can someone point me at an example of a go makefile that results in a linked executable? 22:30 < dho> all: 22:30 < dho> \t6g file1.go file2.go 22:30 < skelterjohn> gracchus: take a look in go/src/cmd 22:30 < dho> well 22:30 < dho> what he said 22:30 -!- stefanc [n=stefanc@80.96.113.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30 < skelterjohn> each of those have a makefile that creates an executable 22:30 < dho> src/cmd/gofmt for instance 22:30 < gracchus> m'kay, thanks 22:30 < dho> looking in 6c wouldn't be useful 22:30 < skelterjohn> heh 22:31 < skelterjohn> right, filter on the ones that are actually go source 22:33 < gracchus> got it, thanks: I was including Make.pkg, not Make.cmd 22:33 < skelterjohn> that's the gist of it 22:33 < dho> speaking of 22:33 < dho> did you see jan's latest thoughts 22:34 * gracchus notes that go compiles really fast ... golly ... 22:36 -!- gkmngrgn [n=gkmngrgn@unaffiliated/gkmngrgn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36 < skelterjohn> dho: i saw that there was something long...the gb project seems to be going in a different direction than i had hoped, tbh. that's fine, of course, but my interest ins dwindling 22:36 < skelterjohn> which is good, considering i have a paper deadline in a month 22:36 < dho> heh, alright. 22:36 < skelterjohn> if you want me to take a look, i will 22:37 < dho> *shrugs* you've got good input 22:37 < dho> if you've time. i've been busy enough as it is 22:37 < maikeru|> gb project? 22:37 < dho> make-for-go 22:37 < dho> alternatively s/for/in/ 22:37 < dho> is the concept. 22:37 -!- gkmn_zZz [n=gkmngrgn@78.185.220.154] has joined #go-nuts 22:38 < skelterjohn> go builder "gb" 22:38 < maikeru|> ah 22:40 < skelterjohn> dho: I just really liked the idea of a very inflexible and particular builder that, if you organize things properly, can build whatever sort of cmd or pkg you wanted 22:40 < WalterMundt> link for go builder? 22:40 < skelterjohn> non-public project, WalterMundt 22:40 < WalterMundt> k 22:40 < skelterjohn> the "project" is a discussion in google-wave :) 22:40 -!- iammisc [n=travfar@pool-173-51-244-73.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:40 < WalterMundt> I've been thinking something like that would crop up 22:40 < skelterjohn> there are a few tries on go-lang.cat-v.org 22:41 < skelterjohn> this one was commissioned by russ cox, so it has a good chance of making it into the distribution if it works well 22:41 < WalterMundt> *nods* 22:42 < dho> That said, if you're interested in taking a look and have a Wave account, I'm glad to add you onto the wave. 22:42 < dho> It's very much still under discussion at this point. 22:42 < maikeru|> I wouldn't mind taking a peek, if that invitation extends to me as well, that is. 22:43 < dho> Nope, everyone but you. 22:43 < WalterMundt> sounds interesting, let me see what account I have Wave access on 22:43 < dho> ;) 22:43 < WalterMundt> yeah, waltermundt@codethink.info is the google account 22:43 < WalterMundt> I haven't really messed with it at all 22:43 < maikeru|> dho: :P I'll make sure to send a note to whatever university you're looking at on, erm, you're behalf 22:44 < dho> make sure to spell your correctly ;) 22:44 < dho> waltermundt@codethink.info is not a Google Wave account. 22:44 -!- lux` [n=lux@151.95.176.190] has joined #go-nuts 22:44 < maikeru|> damn't 22:44 < skelterjohn> in your college essays, anyway 22:44 < maikeru|> I never make that mistake. 22:44 < dho> maikeru|: what's your account name 22:44 < maikeru|> michaelaschade@gmail.com I think. 22:45 < dho> your last name means `damage' in dutch. 22:45 < maikeru|> Hmm, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. 22:46 < skelterjohn> dho: honestly i felt like we had something really cool going on, and then russ came in and dive bombed it 22:46 < skelterjohn> heh 22:46 < skelterjohn> but it is clear that his vision of what it should be was different than mine 22:46 < skelterjohn> so that's just how it goes 22:47 < dho> skelterjohn: I don't see why it can't still magically build things. 22:47 < skelterjohn> it can, but he wants it to be something with the same functionality as make or scons 22:47 < skelterjohn> which is a lot of work, and why do all that work? 22:47 < skelterjohn> :) 22:47 -!- tomestla [n=tom@87.100.115.249] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:47 < dho> unfortunately, portability is one of those reasons :) 22:48 -!- elmar [n=elmar@dslb-094-219-212-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:48 < skelterjohn> developing on windows is a pain for millions of reasons 22:48 < WalterMundt> yeah, I could see some value in something that expects e.g. src/pkg to have a compilable package tree and src/exe to have binaries or some similar convention 22:48 < skelterjohn> every other system can use make 22:49 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: you can just check the package name... if it's "main" then it's a cmd. If it's not, then it's a pkg 22:49 -!- zaker [n=zaker@18.19.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #go-nuts 22:49 -!- zaker_ [n=zaker@18.19.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #go-nuts 22:49 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:49 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: ahh, true 22:49 < WalterMundt> can go currently do multi-file main package? 22:49 < skelterjohn> sure can 22:49 < skelterjohn> 6g file1.go file2.go 22:50 < WalterMundt> k, so that'd be one thing. if a directory has 2 "main" files, are they one command or two? 22:50 < dho> WalterMundt: your wave account wasn't a wave account 22:50 < WalterMundt> ack 22:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EIF5 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ -- Clarify section on tokens. 22:50 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: that is part of what it should enforce. only one target per directory 22:50 < skelterjohn> most of our discussion was how to nicely choose which files to include in the compile 22:51 < skelterjohn> depending on platform, etc 22:51 < WalterMundt> dho: maybe codethink.info@googlewave.com ? 22:51 < WalterMundt> not sure precisely how it works, sorry 22:51 < dho> yep 22:51 < gracchus> one "target" == one func main() though, which is enforced 22:51 < gracchus> ? 22:52 -!- Demp_ [n=Demp@109.64.48.40] has joined #go-nuts 22:52 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-109-64-48-40.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53 < skelterjohn> yes 22:53 < skelterjohn> it's all moot at this point - the project is going in a different direction 22:53 < skelterjohn> maybe one day i'll do what i was thinking 22:53 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Bye Bye"] 22:53 < dho> skelterjohn: feel free to use goober, it does most of that right now 22:53 < zaker_> i just wonder why the square brackets used to declare and use arrays are switching from prefix to post-fix, example: var array []int => array[i].... instead of just keeping it prefix? 22:53 < dho> sort of 22:54 -!- nealmcb [n=neal@ubuntu/member/nealmcb] has joined #go-nuts 22:54 < skelterjohn> dho: did you do more with goober? 22:54 < dho> no but it's trivial to get it to work 22:54 < skelterjohn> heh 22:56 < WalterMundt> you know, I find the use case of running the builder in a subdirectory to be interesting. I don't want you to have to put a build file in every dir, but it would be nice to have the builder just build the package of the cwd if run with no args in a package's directory 22:57 < WalterMundt> maybe have a builder that searches up the tree for a build file by default 22:57 < skelterjohn> maybe after this deadline i'll put it together 22:57 < skelterjohn> alternatively, maybe i won't feel like implementing something that does only a subset of the current gb proposal 22:57 < skelterjohn> :) 23:00 -!- rrr_ [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 23:04 < napsy> Hello. How do I iterate through list.List()? 23:04 < skelterjohn> l.Iter() 23:04 < dho> WalterMundt: the issue with that is directories like pkg/io 23:04 < napsy> ok but how do I use this? 23:05 < skelterjohn> var l list.List = ... \n for val := range l.Iter() { ... } 23:05 < napsy> oh ok 23:05 < dho> WalterMundt: if you have a makefile in pkg/io, how do you know that pkg/ioutil is a different package without scanning files in it 23:05 < dho> or that they're not supposed to be linked together 23:05 < WalterMundt> I've not looked in there as of yet 23:07 < WalterMundt> Are they separate? Because I'd say the sane default is to presume different directories are separate packages and attempt to auto-resolve any dependencies regardless of their hierarchical relationship within the source tree 23:08 < napsy> skelterjohn: ok I have the iter but how to get the data now? 23:08 < skelterjohn> I think having the source for one package inside the directory for another is pretty weird 23:08 < WalterMundt> again, absent any build instructions beyond a marker file at the root 23:08 < skelterjohn> napsy: like i said - a for/range. 23:09 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: if the package is going to be named io/ioutil, having it be in src/pkg/io/ioutil makes perfect sense to me 23:09 < napsy> skelterjohn: I created the for loop but now I don't know how to get the data from the item 23:09 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: I think having a package named io/ioutil is weird :) 23:09 < WalterMundt> therein lies the difference between us then 23:09 < skelterjohn> napsy: val is the data. each iteration of the for loop will assign a different element to val 23:10 < napsy> skelterjohn: yes but if I try to print the data (string) I get pointers 23:10 < skelterjohn> then the data isn't strings :) 23:10 < skelterjohn> try val.(string) 23:10 < napsy> ok 23:10 < skelterjohn> a list.List has interface{} as its elements 23:10 < WalterMundt> I see nesting related packages as normal, and in a similar vein to the function of packages in other languages like Python and Java 23:10 < napsy> skelterjohn: oh it works now, thanks 23:10 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:10 < WalterMundt> though I am very thankful that go hasn't gone the Java route wrt package naming 23:11 < dho> val.(string) is really weird 23:11 < skelterjohn> napsy: val is of type interface{} 23:11 < dho> i've always found that a little too verbose 23:11 < skelterjohn> it happens that string implements that interface 23:11 < skelterjohn> dho: until generics, that's how it goes 23:11 < dho> yeah 23:12 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15 -!- defectiv [n=clays@or-67-76-144-131.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:16 < skelterjohn> the alternative is way too verbose, but it seems weird to me that you don't have to wrap everything in interface boxes when you pass them as parameters 23:17 < skelterjohn> in the way that you have to say "var i int = int(aFloat)" instead of "var i int = aFloat" 23:23 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:31 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:38 -!- defectiv [n=clays@or-67-76-144-131.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:42 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:43 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:46 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-45-82-65-141-236.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47 -!- werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 23:50 -!- DerHorst [n=Horst@e176096157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EMbc by [Robert Griesemer] in go/src/pkg/crypto/md5/ -- A couple of tighter loops. 23:51 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@66.54.185.131] has quit [] 23:52 -!- narg [n=chatzill@dsl-72-55-216-226.tcq.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:54 -!- ShadowIce [n=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:54 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:58 -!- Guest40900 [n=elmar@dslb-094-219-212-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] --- Log closed Tue Dec 29 00:00:01 2009