--- Log opened Wed Jan 27 00:00:50 2010
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00:10 < plexdev> http://is.gd/77eXt by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
do not treat .6 different from .a anymore
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00:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/77hGM by [Michael Hoisie] in go/src/pkg/net/
-- net: fix segfault if /etc/hosts fails to open or doesn't exist
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01:59 < plexdev> http://is.gd/77xRQ by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/patch/ --
patch: handle text diffs from git
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02:24 < happy> anyone know why this would happen when I try to compile?
http://pastebin.com/d7d742e65
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02:30 < plexdev> http://is.gd/77DpJ by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/cgo/ -- cgo:
update for package global name space
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02:54 * tav waves
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04:18 <+kaib> evening!
04:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/77XPE by [Kai Backman] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/embedded/ -- small embedded target for arm.
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04:46 < anticw> kaib: is that arm5 work done on real hw or an emulator at
this stage?
04:46 <+kaib> anticw: real hardware.  i gave up on qemu a few months back.
04:47 < anticw> kaib: the atmel thang or something else?
04:47 <+kaib> anticw: the atmel device.  i have a few other devices around
but that's the one i'm most familiar with at this point
04:48 < anticw> kaib: so back to a question from last night ...  what is the
practical footprint you're using then?
04:49 <+kaib> anticw: did we have a go pastebin?
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04:50 < anticw> kaib: nothing i've seen
04:50 <+kaib> anticw: nm, here is the elf output
http://pastebin.com/m6a7eede4
04:51 <+kaib> anticw: almost all of it is reflection type information
04:51 <+kaib> anticw: i have a plan for adding a flag to 5g to enable
turning reflection off, to save space.  but there are a few more bugs before i get
there.
04:52 < anticw> oh, speaking of such things ...  i wondered about a flag for
*g to disable generation of bounds-checking insns
04:56 < anticw> kaib: you did the bulk of the 5g work?
04:56 <+kaib> anticw: yeah.  ken and rsc did the common parts in gc but most
of the stuff in 5g is my work
04:57 < anticw> right, i'm wondering as the 5g parts might be a starting
point for a mips32 port
04:57 < anticw> i'm wondered what level of effort that would be at this
point, not for embedded but for linux
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04:58 < anticw> (lots of small access points and routers are mips32be for
example)
04:59 <+kaib> it took me about 8 months of wall time to do it, but there are
still bits and pieces missing.
05:00 < anticw> yeah, i was worried it would be something really large like
that
05:00 <+kaib> i was doing it mostly on 20% time, but i spent a lot of
evenings on it as well.  hard to say total number of hours.
05:00 < anticw> yeah, i have like 5% time :)
05:00 <+kaib> :-)
05:00 <+kaib> i also benefited of having rsc close by and to a lesser extent
from having ken around.
05:01 < anticw> i wondered if i could basically take 5g and replace the insn
generated with similar equivs
05:01 < anticw> and have the plan9 assembler for mips deal with delay slots
05:01 <+kaib> rsc has coded some mips and he was able to grok a lot of arm
based on that.
05:01 < anticw> (im assuming there is such a beast already and it deals with
that already)
05:01 <+kaib> you have the plan9 linker, which is probably the hardest part.
05:02 < anticw> in which way?
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05:02 < anticw> i mean, whta's there should be close enough
05:02 <+kaib> so, 5g produces an intermediate format that 5l then turns into
real machine code.
05:03 <+kaib> i'm guessing that the mips linker hides delay slots from the
intermediate, that's what 5l does for thumb (you supposedly just turn it on)
05:03 <+kaib> haven't tried thumb however.
05:03 <+kaib> it's a significant amount of work.  i entertained writing an
avr backend after the arm one, but have given up that plan for now.
05:03 <+kaib> definitely doable, but significant.
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05:04 <+kaib> if you are interested take a look at the changelists that went
into 5g in the repository.
05:04 <+kaib> and just browse the code for feel.
05:05 < anticw> i had a look over some of it already ...  conditional logic
would be different
05:05 < anticw> and im not sure what ABI quirks there could be
05:05 < anticw> (i guess the ABI for this isn't really defined other than
stuff goes on the stack)
05:11 <+kaib> the go ABI is standard across platforms.
05:11 <+kaib> and you are right, everything goes on the stack.
05:12 <+kaib> input first, output then.
05:12 < anticw> yeah, i dont like that actually
05:12 <+kaib> why?
05:12 < anticw> it seems a bit wasteful for modern CPUs ...  though stack
accesses aren't that expensive
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05:13 < anticw> for i386 i can see why people would do that ...  for x86-64,
arm, etc.  you can use a couple of registers ...  and most other ABIs on those
platforms do
05:15 <+kaib> so, the compilers use a caller save policy for registers.
05:16 <+kaib> to be more precise, after every statement all the registers
are saved and no registers are live
05:16 <+kaib> this means the register allocation is dead simple, if not
without some subtleties however.
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05:17 <+kaib> there is an additional optimization step (which isn't turned
on for 5g currently) where we do a pass through the code and eliminate redundant
saves and restores.
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05:17 <+kaib> if you look up register allocation for compilers you'll note
that this is a huge area for research, and there are very complex ways of doing
them.
05:17 < anticw> my impression is that there was more because of how gc was
implemented and is potentially something that could change with good reason
05:18 <+kaib> gc as in the compiler or gc as in the garbage collector?
05:18 < anticw> the compiler
05:18 < anticw> src/cmd/gc
05:18 <+kaib> right.  so this is ken's original design for the c compilers
that then moved over when the go compilers were written.
05:19 <+kaib> i don't think anyone wants to change it.
05:19 <+kaib> it's very simple and produces good enough code.
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05:19 < anticw> good enough ...  maybe, im not saying it is worth changing
but it's something that i think people should be open to long term
05:20 <+kaib> :-)
05:20 < anticw> go's performance right now in some cases is pretty decent,
and in others fals behind java and python
05:20 <+kaib> i'm pretty certain that isn't because of the register
optimization ..  :-)
05:20 < anticw> of it's pre-alpha vs something fairly mature ...  so that's
somewhat reasonable
05:20 < ni|> evening all :)
05:20 < anticw> sure, but to close the gap i would argue there is no reason
it should be off the table
05:20 < ni|> can anyone speak to a good image processing book?  I want to
start writing a package for that in go
05:21 < anticw> push/pop on x86 are really cheap on modern CPUs, they have
complex dedicated hw for it
05:21 <+kaib> anticw: sure, but you have to remember that some of this code
is very old and battle tested.  the register allocator has been around
significantly longer than go has been.
05:22 < anticw> kaib: im not *that* concerned about the register allocation
at this point, i think there are likely bigger issues
05:22 < anticw> it seems bounds checking in nest loops isn't always
necessary for example
05:23 < anticw> and i tried with 6g to see if there is CSE and it didn't
look like it
05:23 <+kaib> anticw: to be honest, i'm currently still concerned with just
correctness for 5g.
05:24 < anticw> arm is the only non-x86 platform i would consider worth any
effort, so that's laudable
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05:26 <+kaib> anticw: and in terms of performance there are a lot of lower
hanging fruit.  like just getting the optimizer enabled for starters.  or getting
thumb to work.
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05:47 < anticw> kaib: for 5g sure, but mostly i'm worried about 6g
05:47 < anticw> 5g is interested for portable/embedded
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07:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/78mA5 by [Russ Cox] in 3 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
improved syntax errors
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08:01 < uriel> anticw: there are tons of low hanging fruit optimizations for
6g too (and for the runtime and libraries)
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08:40 < LuitvD> g'dday
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09:08 < anticw> spanky, godefs + a few lines of test go and i have some
somewhat esoteric ioctl stuff working
09:08 < anticw> i really didn't expect it would be this easy
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09:20 < LuitvD> isn't go wonderful?  :)
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13:14 < bortzmeyer> [I posted the question already yesterday but missed the
answers.  Sorry]
13:14 < bortzmeyer> I'm loooking for a way to have varying types, structs
where the presence of some fields depend on the value of another field (CASE in
Ada, unions in C). I find nothing in the spec'
13:24 < jhh> maybe you could use interface{} as type?
13:29 < bortzmeyer> jhh: hmmmm, not sure how you could do it.  Have an
example somewhere?
13:30 < wrtp> there are no discriminated union types in go, although they're
on the authors' "to think about" list
13:31 < bortzmeyer> wrtp: and is there an idiomatic way to "emulate" them?
13:31 < wrtp> look at go/ast for an example of a package that uses
interfaces in place of discriminated unions
13:31 < wrtp> for fields that are common to all variants, use a common
interface
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13:35 < bortzmeyer> wrtp: thanks
13:36 < wrtp> bortzmeyer: np
13:40 < jhh> bortzmeyer: http://pastebin.com/m7e1614dd
13:40 < jhh> heh that's cool
13:42 < bortzmeyer> jhh: thanks a lot!
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13:43 < jhh> you can do t.v.(string) or t.v.(int) to "cast" it back from
interface{} (I'm sure casting is not the right word)
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16:00 < BleSS> is possible to get more control over memory management (i.e.
no garbage collection) ?
16:00 < bortzmeyer> Go in gcc: http://lwn.net/Articles/371466/rss
16:00 <+danderson> nope
16:02 < BleSS> danderson: I think that there was an undocumented option to
unable the GC
16:03 <+danderson> that is not "control" over memory management.
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16:03 <+danderson> Even if you can disable the GC, you can't manually
reclaim memory
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16:05 < BleSS> and is there any interoperability with another langues?
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16:09 <+danderson> go doesn't yet have an FFI, but it's planned.
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16:15 < dho> There's Cgo.
16:15 < dho> And there are wrappers for Lua as well.
16:18 < dho> There is malloc.Alloc and malloc.Free too, which Russ claims
probably won't last.  There's also malloc.GC, which forces a garbage collect.
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16:18 < dho> You can also control the percentage threshold for garbage
collection by setting the GOGC environment variable.
16:19 < dho> GOGC=off turns off GC; GOGC=[integer] controls the percentage
of new memory usage that will force a garbage collection
16:19 < dho> e.g.  GOGC=150
16:19 < dho> If 10MB are allocated, and then another 15MB are allocated, the
GC will run.
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16:19 < BleSS> cool!  thanks
16:19 < dho> np.
16:20 < dho> Note that even with cgo you can't have C call into Go.
16:20 < dho> There's an interesting workaround for this in the lua bindings
that illustrates how you might have C call back into go
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17:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7aeP9 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ --
Clarify parsing of channel types.
17:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7aePx by [Robert Griesemer] in 7 subdirs of
go/src/ -- More steps towards tracking of identifier scopes.
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18:44 < emet> has anyone successfully done web dev in go?
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18:49 < LuitvD> emet: what do you mean?
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18:58 < dho> emet: yes.
18:58 < dho> see michael hoisie's web.go package.
19:01 < skelterjohn> golang.org is run by go code, so there is at least that
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19:05 < LuitvD> and there's gopaste
19:05 < LuitvD> at least there /was/ gopaste
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19:06 < MissPiggy> woah how come there's so many folks here
19:07 < dho> why not
19:07 < LuitvD> :P
19:08 < MissPiggy> yeah but why?
19:08 < LuitvD> because we like it here
19:08 < dho> because people are interested in the topic
19:08 < MissPiggy> why?  :p
19:08 < LuitvD> XD
19:08 < LuitvD> aren't you?
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19:08 < MissPiggy> not really
19:08 * dho stops feeding deliberate troll
19:09 * MissPiggy puts dho on ignore for being a elusive twat and then calling
names
19:09 < dho> That's funny given that I'm probably the most helpful person
here.
19:09 < reggna> :)
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19:09 < MissPiggy> yeah that's true, you really helped me by avoiding my
questions and calling me names
19:09 < LuitvD> I'd believe that in a second
19:09 < dho> other than iant, maybe
19:10 <+iant> I'd vote for dho
19:10 <+iant> MissPiggy: do you actually have a question?
19:10 < reggna> dho is my "go"-to-guy
19:10 < reggna> ^^
19:10 < LuitvD> me too, but that's because I haven't ...  'used' iant yet
19:10 < MissPiggy> iant, yes
19:10 < dho> instantrimshot
19:11 < MissPiggy> iant, that was an actual question earlier; How come there
are SO MANY people in here
19:12 <+iant> MissPiggy: well, why not?  I assume that the people here are
interested in Go
19:12 < MissPiggy> haha okay
19:12 < dho> iant: Clearly it works better if you say it.
19:12 < MissPiggy> you're just going to do the 'why not?' then call me a
troll thing
19:12 < dho> or not.
19:12 <+iant> MissPiggy: I simply don't understand your question
19:12 < dho> MissPiggy: Why are there so many people in ##linux?
19:13 < MissPiggy> iant, I'm surprised so many people are interested in this
19:13 <+iant> MissPiggy: why are you surprised?
19:13 < LuitvD> there's a lot of nerds in the world
19:13 < MissPiggy> because ??  my expectation was smashed
19:13 < MissPiggy> dho, No clue what you are getting at, this isn't ##linux
so the answer wont transfer
19:14 < MissPiggy> s/so/and/
19:14 < LuitvD> mind you this is of the whole population of
internet-connected people still just a small group
19:14 < dho> MissPiggy: It's a philosophical question.  Lots of people are
in there because there are lots of interested parties and lots of people with
questions.
19:14 < dho> It transfers perfectly.
19:14 < MissPiggy> non-answer
19:14 < skelterjohn> not if you're being deliberately obtuse
19:15 < dho> skelterjohn: Watch it, you'll get on the faux-ignore list
19:15 < skelterjohn> i was worried about that
19:15 <+iant> MissPiggy: what do you think this channel is about?
19:15 < MissPiggy> iant, go programming language
19:15 < kerozen> 200 ppl is a lot for you ?
19:15 <+iant> MissPiggy: what are you surprised that people are interested
in the Go programming language?
19:15 < skelterjohn> back when i played quake 3 we'd get 200 people a
channel for a single team.  200 is not a lot for an irc channel.
19:15 < MissPiggy> I know lots of people that make algol-clones and they
don't get 200 people
19:16 < LuitvD> #ubuntu has 1461 at the moment
19:16 < LuitvD> gentoo 807
19:16 <+iant> MissPiggy: Really?  You know lots of people that make
Algol-clones?  I don't know any.
19:16 < LuitvD> #python 792
19:16 < reggna> MissPiggy: I can tell you why I'm here..  I'm here to keep
in touch with the latest developments of Go, and to ask questions and get guide
lines to my own developments projects (that are coded in Go).
19:16 < reggna> *-s
19:17 < kerozen> aggreed with skelterjohn ...  when you saw pointless chan
with +500 ppl in there ...  200 for a new programing language is just ...  few
19:17 < LuitvD> compared to python Go isn't much
19:17 < dho> Also, I really don't see Go as being an Algol `clone'.
19:17 < kerozen> LuitvD: tcl got 70 :x
19:17 < LuitvD> hah!
19:17 < dho> Or really resembling it in any fashion
19:18 < MissPiggy> reggna, sure but that does not answer the general
question - which is about a population rather than just one person
19:18 < LuitvD> yuck, #ruby-lang has 325
19:18 < dho> MissPiggy: Your question has been answered repeatedly by
multiple parties.
19:18 < MissPiggy> dho no it's not
19:18 < reggna> MissPiggy: No, but I can't talk for "the whole population"..
19:18 < LuitvD> #clojure also has more users
19:18 < LuitvD> but only just
19:18 <+iant> MissPiggy: what form of answer would you find satisfactory?
19:18 < dho> iant: the right one, clearly
19:19 <+iant> I should have thought of that
19:19 < MissPiggy> iant, I guess nobody knows the answer
19:19 <+iant> MissPiggy: that does not answer my question
19:19 <+iant> unless you mean to say that your question has no answer
19:20 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: do you even want an answer?
19:20 < MissPiggy> LuitvD of course, that's why I asked
19:20 <+iant> (if your question has no answer you can hardly blame us for
not answering it)
19:20 < dho> 42.
19:20 < dho> There's the answer.
19:20 <+iant> MissPiggy: please give an example of an answer which you would
accept
19:21 < skelterjohn> iant: you are wasting your time
19:21 < MissPiggy> compare all the different hobby-language-design projects
on freenode
19:21 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: if someone asks you 'sup?  does he require an
answer?
19:21 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn stfu
19:21 <+iant> skelterjohn: I'm just amusing myself
19:21 <+iant> I expect you're right
19:21 < MissPiggy> this particular one has abnormally large population
19:21 < skelterjohn> it's frustrating to see someone talk to a black hole,
that's all
19:21 <+iant> granted
19:21 < LuitvD> iant: compiling?
19:21 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn: just stfu
19:21 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn: you're making this a black hole by calling
it that
19:22 < dho> Oh for fuck's sake.
19:22 < skelterjohn> are you 13?
19:22 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn: your friend turned me into a troll by
calling me that
19:22 < kerozen> MissPiggy: what is a normaly large pop for this chan?
19:22 < MissPiggy> kerozen, I mean compared to the other hobby language
design channels, this one has the largest
19:22 < skelterjohn> anyway, i guess i can update my faux-ignore list too
19:22 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn, if you'd just stfu nobody would have to
listen to you whinge
19:22 < MissPiggy> (except a couple like python, which has more users for
obvious reasons)
19:22 < kerozen> MissPiggy: wich other ones ?
19:23 < MissPiggy> kerozen, like io and ooc and falcon and whatever
19:23 <+iant> Python is not a hobby language
19:23 <+iant> and the goal of the Go project is also not to be a hobby
language
19:23 <+iant> though obviously we have yet to see whether it will succeed
19:23 < LuitvD> iant: Python is a perfect hobby language
19:23 < LuitvD> iant: it just isn't exclusively that
19:23 <+iant> right
19:23 < MissPiggy> iant, this large number of people here seems like an
indication of success
19:23 <+iant> not yet
19:23 <+iant> just interest
19:24 < MissPiggy> iant, and this is something I am curious abuot (but
apparently im a black hole troll for asking such philosophical questions)
19:24 < LuitvD> for me every programming language is still a hobby language
19:24 < LuitvD> and Python will become my work in 2 weeks
19:24 < LuitvD> for 9 weeks or so
19:24 < kerozen> MissPiggy: this number of ppl is perhaps cause of google
link with go ?
19:24 < MissPiggy> What's the google link?
19:24 < skelterjohn> i think of a hobby language as something that can
*only* be used for toy programs
19:24 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: geez, check your facts
19:24 < skelterjohn> python is certainly not that
19:25 < dho> MissPiggy: Google started and maintains the Go project.
19:25 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: who do you think created this language?
Microsoft?
19:25 < MissPiggy> I thought it was just some hobbyist
19:25 < LuitvD> (apple?)
19:25 < MissPiggy> like Guido or Mats or whoever
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19:25 < dho> MissPiggy: I suggest reading http://golang.org.
19:25 < MissPiggy> dho I suggest not calling people trolls
19:25 < MissPiggy> dho just tell them in PM what they are doing wrong
19:25 < skelterjohn> I hear it was McCabe who created go ;)
19:25 < dho> Your volatility certainly isn't helping your cause.
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19:26 < MissPiggy> Is a large percent of this channel people who work at
google?
19:26 < MissPiggy> because that would answer it I guess
19:26 <+iant> As far as I know only a couple of people here work at Google
19:26 < skelterjohn> the original question?
19:27 < MissPiggy> so it's not really populated by googlians
19:27 < skelterjohn> heh
19:27 <+iant> no, not really
19:27 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn "woah how come there's so many folks here" --
maybe not the best phrased question
19:27 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn since it made it immediately obvious to
people like you and dho that I don't want an answer and I just want to just light
in from you
19:27 < skelterjohn> as phrased, the answer "because so many folks are
interested in the language" seemed appropriate
19:28 < MissPiggy> that's not an answer
19:28 < skelterjohn> not the answer you are looking for, anyway
19:28 < MissPiggy> why does stuff fall "because they want to be on the
floor"
19:28 <+iant> we're back to that again; what is an answer?
19:28 < skelterjohn> so, you are asking "why are people interested in go?"?
19:28 < MissPiggy> I suppose one reasonable guess would be "lots of
google-loving people made this language more popular than if it wasn't affiliated"
19:29 < MissPiggy> but I don't really want to believe that, and I don't see
how to test it anyway
19:29 <+iant> good, let's go with that one and move on
19:29 < kerozen> MissPiggy: may i suggest you, when you join a chan, to read
the topic and follow links provided ?
19:29 <+iant> aw, snap
19:29 < MissPiggy> kerozen: thanks for the hint, which I did do btw
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19:29 < MissPiggy> I don't care about the bug tracker or common problems
though, since I'm not having any difficulty programming in Go
19:30 < MissPiggy> so not sure why you are goading me with this advice but
thanks
19:30 < dho> This is really starting to lose novelty quickly.
19:30 < skelterjohn> well, i guess this beats the silence that occupies this
channel a lot of the time
19:30 < dho> I disagree.
19:30 < MissPiggy> dho, read what I said a moment ago
19:30 < skelterjohn> but i'd prefer the discussion center around more
interesting things
19:31 < kerozen> MissPiggy: but if you did so, as you say, you'll know how
to install go and compile your hello world!  ...
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19:31 * dho adds the troll to the ignore list and goes elsewhere.
19:36 < LuitvD> Guido has his language
19:36 < LuitvD> but he didn't just appear out of the blue
19:37 < dho> We're still talking to it?  really?
19:37 < LuitvD> to what?
19:37 < MissPiggy> LuitvD, I've been demoted to 'it' for being such a
terrible troll
19:38 < MissPiggy> just a game me and dho play, where he pretends to hate me
and I pretend not to care
19:38 < happy> MissPiggy: I just got here.  And if I had +o, I would be one
of the people who would ban you in an instant.  You are a troll.
19:38 < MissPiggy> happy fuck you then
19:38 * LuitvD puts another treat on his hand, waiting for MissPiggy to snag it
off again
19:39 < happy> MissPiggy: I have a new question
19:39 < happy> why are YOU here
19:39 < MissPiggy> happy want a chatlog so you have some context?
19:39 < happy> I have the entire chatlog
19:40 * LuitvD was just typing "I think he has one"
19:40 < happy> I read through just about all of it
19:40 < LuitvD> fast reader then
19:40 < happy> :-)
19:40 < LuitvD> (lots of bullshit, so easy speed-reading I guess)
19:40 < happy> yep
19:41 < LuitvD> reading it fixed-width or variable-width font?
19:41 < skelterjohn> lol
19:41 < happy> variable
19:41 < happy> easier on the eyes
19:41 < LuitvD> :-D
19:41 < LuitvD> expected that
19:41 < LuitvD> faster to read condensed
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19:44 * LuitvD has a way too flaky connection to really be using IRC properly
19:44 < anticw> iant: if the gc in the future is reference count based, will
that mean finalizers are called promptly?
19:44 < skelterjohn> if your connection is too flakey to handle irc...  you
are in trouble
19:45 < LuitvD> I know
19:45 < LuitvD> I'm quite pissy about it
19:45 < skelterjohn> anticw: what's a finalizer?  nothing turned up in the
lang faq
19:45 < LuitvD> the ADSL-connection I'm using is also used by about 20
others...
19:45 < jhh> i guess he means a destructor.  are there any?
19:46 < LuitvD> do we need any?
19:46 < skelterjohn> not in the language...maybe a particular aspect of the
gc?
19:46 <+iant> anticw: yes, I think so
19:46 < LuitvD> you'll have to make your own constructors, so destructors
are the same jazz, right?
19:47 < skelterjohn> well, a destructor in the sense of "the runtime calls
this function right before the obj is deleted" ....  i don't think that will exist
19:47 < skelterjohn> but if you have a function that cleans stuff up when
you're done with it, sure you can write that :)
19:47 < LuitvD> for special types like file handlers there is, right?
19:47 < skelterjohn> but you'd have to call it manually
19:48 < skelterjohn> you mean like close() functions?
19:48 < LuitvD> hm, ...
19:48 * LuitvD begins to doubt that
19:49 < dho> refcounted GC will be nice.
19:49 < dho> will also make FFIs more sane.
19:50 < anticw> iant: surely reference counting means locked cycles on x86
...  and cache line ping-pong ...  i wonder how much that would hurt in normal
use?
19:50 < reppie> anticw only one way to find out
19:51 < dho> oh noes it's teh googreppje
19:51 < reppie> hi
19:51 < LuitvD> reppje?
19:52 < LuitvD> :-O
19:52 < skelterjohn> still curious about what a finalizer is
19:52 * LuitvD still doesn't know who he's facing
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19:54 < LuitvD> skelterjohn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finalizer
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19:55 < happy> skelterjohn: looks like a destructor
19:55 < LuitvD> skelterjohn: I guess it's a special destructor...
19:55 < LuitvD> to make sure the garbage-collector can do it's work
efficiently
19:55 < LuitvD> I guess...
19:55 < skelterjohn> thanks
19:56 < LuitvD> destroying child objects (pointed to by the destructor)
quick and painlessly so it doen't take any new ref-counting trouble to find those
19:56 < LuitvD> possibly
19:57 -!- jalmeida [n=jalmeida@c9340a2e.virtua.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the
connection]
19:57 < LuitvD> (completely hypothetically speaking here, I have no
knowledge of language design whatsoever)
19:58 < LuitvD> (being a first-year student Applied Computer Science nobody
distantly expects this from me)
19:59 < MissPiggy> what sort of stuff do you do in Applied Computer Science?
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20:00 < LuitvD> up until now just learning to use some programming languages
20:00 < LuitvD> (my fellow students started learning to use Java)
20:00 < LuitvD> (not me, I'm too good for that junk)
20:00 * happy hates java
20:00 < LuitvD> MissPiggy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science#Applied_Computer_Science
20:00 * happy was forced to use it in APCS
20:01 * LuitvD likes how many smart people (people who I think of as awesome
people) hate Java too
20:01 < LuitvD> APCS?
20:01 < LuitvD> Applied Practical?
20:01 < LuitvD> XD
20:01 < happy> Advanced Placement Computer Science.  I am in high school :-P
20:01 < MissPiggy> LuitvD, this doesn't make sense 'The following areas are
often studied from a more theoretical, computer science viewpoint, as well as from
a more practical, engineering perspective.'
20:02 < LuitvD> happy: oh dear, you learnt that god-aweful language in high
school already?
20:02 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: look at the pictures and name tags below them
that are gathered in the box after that line
20:02 < happy> LuitvD: yep.  Good thing it was not my first language (or
anywhere near 4th)
20:03 < happy> MissPiggy: that sentence makes sense.
20:03 * LuitvD learnt about 10 languages before being forced into learning (some)
java
20:03 < happy> lol
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20:03 < happy> I "know" quite a few
20:03 < LuitvD> (which was about half a year ago
20:04 < LuitvD> when I started my ACS study here)
20:04 < jhh_> I could imagine more useful occupations than learning 10
programming languages or bashing java ;)
20:04 < happy> APCS was the 2nd most boring class ever (math beats it)
20:04 < MissPiggy> heh jhh_
20:05 < happy> jhh_: but it is so much fun :-P
20:05 < LuitvD> :P
20:05 < LuitvD> wasn't Math also fun?
20:06 < anticw> reppje: i actually have code somewhere that tests locked
cycle increments across many threads/cores, it's not devastatingly slow
20:06 < reppje> anticw it depends on the cpu
20:06 < anticw> reppje: i explicitly talked about x86
20:07 < reppje> there are a lot of different x86 cpus
20:07 < LuitvD> is it possible to have the GC work concurrently?
20:07 < LuitvD> having your program running uninterrupted in one thread, and
the GC in another?
20:07 < LuitvD> (would be awesome for real-time software)
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connection]
20:11 < skelterjohn> in highschool, i just took the AP CS exam without the
burden of taking the class
20:11 < skelterjohn> saved a lot of time
20:12 < happy> skelterjohn: They would not let me do that :-\
20:12 < skelterjohn> pfft
20:12 < happy> I envy you
20:12 < skelterjohn> you don't have to ask "them"
20:12 < skelterjohn> you can take an AP exam without going through your
highschool
20:12 < happy> skelterjohn: I wish I had thought of that :-)
20:13 < LuitvD> with the half-semester where I should've learnt Java the
first thing I did was let the main teacher let me do the final test
20:13 < skelterjohn> the teacher was nice enough to lend me the text for a
week so i could look at the case study (which i did for all of 5 minutes)
20:13 < LuitvD> which I passed with only half a day's worth of Java learning
20:13 < happy> lol
20:14 < LuitvD> (easy, if you can do C++)
20:14 < happy> I could have had a free the whole year...
20:14 < happy> LuitvD: I knew C and python.
20:14 < LuitvD> I could've passed this year with about 10 hours of
class-time
20:14 < happy> put them together.  Taking only the worse from both and you
have java
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www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )"]
20:14 < skelterjohn> you know, you people are too down on java
20:15 < skelterjohn> it's a perfectly good language with a great standard
library
20:15 < LuitvD> *ahem*
20:15 < skelterjohn> i find it easy to write java code to do what i want,
and it runs pretty fast
20:15 < happy> skelterjohn: maybe it is the fact it was forced on me...
20:15 < LuitvD> I hate many things about Java
20:15 < LuitvD> it's a perfectly good language, true
20:15 < skelterjohn> "hating" a programming language is silly, imo
20:15 < LuitvD> but it's an ugly one
20:15 < skelterjohn> and aesthetics are a personal thing
20:16 < LuitvD> so I intended on not using it
20:16 < skelterjohn> i think it looks fine
20:16 < happy> LuitvD: if it is ugly...  what is Go?
20:16 < LuitvD> Go is ...  different
20:16 < skelterjohn> i think go is very slick looking
20:16 < skelterjohn> i like go code
20:16 < LuitvD> Go is special :)
20:16 < LuitvD> and I'm beginning to see more nice bits
20:16 < LuitvD> I like it
20:17 < LuitvD> and I like any language of which I could "learn it's ways"
20:17 < LuitvD> and I could never EVER learn Java's ways
20:17 < dho> I recently had to do a fair amount of work in Java
20:17 < LuitvD> not even if you removed my frontal lobe
20:17 < dho> it wasn't so bad
20:18 < skelterjohn> i suppose i shouldn't fault you for having an
irrational desire to never use a particular language...  i'm like that with matlab
20:18 < LuitvD> ugh, don't get me started on matlab
20:19 < LuitvD> had to use that for signal-processing in my second year of
Electronic Engineering & Design
20:19 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn: me too
20:19 < MissPiggy> skelterjohn: although it's because the implementation is
closed, and I think that is slightly rational
20:20 < reppje> skelterjohn just because you don't understand the reason
doesn't mean it's irrational
20:20 -!- idea_squirrel [n=ct2rips@77-21-31-189-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit
[Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:20 < skelterjohn> i think it's a perfectly serviceable prototyping
language, but it's not appropriate for big systems
20:20 < LuitvD> it's never appropriate
20:20 < dho> what, java?
20:20 < dho> sorry, but that's false.
20:20 < skelterjohn> matlab, now
20:20 < dho> oh
20:20 < dho> never used it
20:20 < skelterjohn> and matlab is most definitely appropriate for some
situations
20:21 < skelterjohn> it has the most concise syntax for complex LA stuff
that i am aware of
20:21 < skelterjohn> and it does LA operations very well
20:21 < skelterjohn> people in machine learning use it a lot
20:21 -!- moraes [n=moraes@187.39.158.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection
timed out)]
20:22 < LuitvD> maybe I'm not seeing it's potential
20:22 < LuitvD> (possibly because of the way I had it taught)
20:23 < LuitvD> (they made me build extremely simple filtering stuff)
20:24 < LuitvD> (and everyone told me I was good at it, even though I
repeatedly told them it was nothing close to impressive)
20:26 < LuitvD> seems like I always have that problem
20:26 < LuitvD> ...
20:26 < happy> Java is the only language I did not teach myself...
20:27 -!- moraes_ [n=moraes@187.39.158.51] has quit [Client Quit]
20:28 < LuitvD> I start learning some stuff, look for more knowledge by
enrolling in a course on that subject, follow the course and realize it's just
what I learned already, asking for more to learn and getting nothing and finally
finishing the course having learnt nothing
20:29 -!- wrtp [n=rog@78.150.174.161] has quit []
20:29 < skelterjohn> at rutgers, the intro courses are taught in java
20:29 < LuitvD> in the mean time I've started learning some new stuff
that'll be taught in some future course and the story repeats all over again
20:29 < skelterjohn> the first one is essentially "this is how to write java
code"
20:29 < skelterjohn> and the second one is datastructres in java
20:29 < happy> LuitvD: yep.  That is what happens
20:29 < skelterjohn> that's when you get to take naps at 2 in the afternoon
20:29 < LuitvD> sofar there's little I've learnt in any school
20:30 < skelterjohn> in my undergrad, the take-away i got was the
mathematical aspects to CS
20:30 < happy> LuitvD: that is what happens.
20:30 < skelterjohn> i learned little about programming as an undergrad
20:30 < LuitvD> luckily I can now start with a second-year intern-ship
20:31 * skelterjohn pictures a ship full of interns setting sail
20:31 < happy> I need to look for an internship
20:31 < happy> but I have no ideas where
20:31 * LuitvD hates his spellchecker
20:32 < LuitvD> (additionally, it was very hard to decide on `internship` or
`intern-ship` because of my native language)
20:32 < skelterjohn> :)
20:33 < LuitvD> my native language tends to stick everything imaginable
together as a single word
20:34 -!- andhul [n=andhul@zreahese.hus.sgsnet.se] has joined #go-nuts
20:34 < happy> LuitvD: what language?
20:34 < happy> go?
20:34 < LuitvD> I wish
20:34 < happy> lol
20:34 -!- moraes [n=moraes@187.39.158.51] has joined #go-nuts
20:34 < happy> that was a serious question though.  what is your native
language?
20:35 < MissPiggy> finnish
20:35 < LuitvD> guess :)
20:35 < MissPiggy> romanian?
20:35 < happy> LuitvD: C++?
20:35 < happy> LuitvD: I am not guessing
20:35 < LuitvD> lol
20:36 < MissPiggy> turkish?
20:36 < LuitvD> a language which can have eight consonants in a row
20:36 < LuitvD> nope
20:36 < MissPiggy> hungarian?
20:36 < LuitvD> nope, not even close
20:36 < happy> what?!
20:36 < MissPiggy> hmmm
20:36 < happy> 8 consonats?
20:37 < happy> no human language has that :-P
20:37 < LuitvD> mine has :)
20:37 < happy> german?
20:37 < LuitvD> these letters: ngstschr
20:37 < happy> german?
20:37 < skelterjohn> polish
20:37 < MissPiggy> dutch!
20:37 < LuitvD> yeah
20:37 < LuitvD> dutch
20:38 < reppje> ik hou van jou
20:38 < skelterjohn> i still think it's polish
20:38 < happy> LuitvD: I was about to google your name
20:38 < LuitvD> ngstschr is in the word "angstschreeuw"
20:38 < happy> Drongelen, a country would need to come up
20:38 < LuitvD> (meaning scream of fear)
20:38 < skelterjohn> oh - that's just two words pushed together
20:38 < LuitvD> :P
20:38 < LuitvD> compound word :) true
20:38 < LuitvD> but it's pronounced as one
20:38 < LuitvD> and written as one
20:39 < LuitvD> that's the trouble I'm having with English
20:40 < LuitvD> reppje: is that all the dutch you know?
20:40 < dho> skelterjohn: we have compound w ords :P
20:40 * LuitvD lold
20:40 < dho> LuitvD: dutch isn't as bad as german with that
20:40 < LuitvD> darkroom is a compound word
20:40 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-197-218-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"]
20:41 * LuitvD hates being Dutch when using English
20:41 < dho> why
20:41 < LuitvD> it's so easy to pick out Dutch people speaking English
20:42 < LuitvD> (when you're Dutch yourself and know enough English)
20:42 < dho> like actually speaking?
20:42 < reppje> LuitvD yes
20:42 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@66.54.185.131] has quit []
20:42 < LuitvD> dho: yeah, speaking
20:42 < LuitvD> dho: but sometimes even in writing
20:42 < dho> yeah you guys have a pretty distinctive accent
20:42 -!- ashaw [n=ashaw@58.108.161.163] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection
timed out)]
20:42 < LuitvD> certain constructions
20:42 < dho> writing too
20:42 < dho> yeah
20:43 < LuitvD> I even have that with some dialects of Dutch compared to
common dutch
20:43 < dho> translating idioms that do actually work in english but are
used all the time in dutch
20:43 < dho> heh
20:43 < dho> i remember one time margriet was talking about ABN and instead
of saying ABN, she said ABC
20:43 < LuitvD> :|
20:44 -!- plainhao [n=plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com] has quit []
20:44 < dho> but some of your words are just begging to be mis-used
20:44 < dho> like, no dutch person every says `pull off' in english
20:45 < LuitvD> :P
20:45 < LuitvD> some do
20:45 < dho> but if you're not a native dutch speaker it's really easy to
accidentally say `aftrekken' to mean something completely different.
20:45 < LuitvD> there's some awesome booklets about common dutch-english
mis-uses
20:45 -!- JSharpe2 [n=jamie@5ad1d7d2.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts
20:46 < dho> i have a book called `dubbel dutch' which is out of print now
20:46 < dho> but it has some interesting stuff in it
20:46 < LuitvD> dho: aftrekken isn't always odd to use
20:46 < LuitvD> dho: just like klaar komen
20:46 < dho> yeah well
20:47 < dho> pro-tip: don't use it when talking about pulling a plug from an
electrical outlet :P
20:47 < LuitvD> (because that naughty word is compound, klaarkomen)
20:47 < LuitvD> :P
20:47 < dho> for instance the book has a section on `toch', `toch maar',
`toch maar eens' and `toch maar eens even'
20:47 < LuitvD> like: Trek die stekker eens af
20:48 < LuitvD> the book I meant was "I always get my sin" :P
20:48 < LuitvD> with constructions like "I thank you from the bottom of my
hart"
20:48 < dho> i like that section because it's really funny to see how you
can add a bunch of words that really have no meaning to actually add meaning.
20:49 < LuitvD> and also from my wife's bottom
20:49 < LuitvD> or...  "I do not want to fall with the door in house"
20:49 < dho> how about unfortunately peanut butter
20:49 * dho loves that one
20:50 < LuitvD> yeah
20:50 -!- u4ia [n=weechat@quepasa.solcon.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation
timed out)]
20:50 < LuitvD> that's typically dutch
20:50 < LuitvD> this one: How do you do and how do you do your wife?
20:50 < dho> there's a dutch construction
20:50 < dho> right there
20:50 < LuitvD> Hoe gaat het, en hoe gaat het met je vrouw
20:50 < LuitvD> way to literally translated
20:50 < dho> how goes it and how goes it with your wife?
20:51 < dho> a literal translation would work fine
20:51 < dho> how do you do is a figurative (and outdated) translation
20:51 < LuitvD> the "I always get my sin" is filled with those unfortunate
mistranslations
20:52 -!- u4ia [n=weechat@quepasa.solcon.nl] has joined #go-nuts
20:53 < LuitvD> this one's bad: What do you?
20:53 < dho> hahahaha
20:53 < LuitvD> that's "Wat doe je?" translated word by word
20:53 -!- wrtp [n=rog@78.150.174.161] has joined #go-nuts
20:53 < dho> what do you actually, too :)
20:53 < LuitvD> ?
20:53 < LuitvD> oh, yeah
20:54 < LuitvD>
http://static.bol.com/imgbase0/BOOKCOVER/FC/9/0/4/5/3/9045302802_E3.gif
20:55 < LuitvD> should be "first female state-secretary" I guess
20:55 < dho> secretary of state
20:55 -!- wrtp [n=rog@78.150.174.161] has quit [Client Quit]
20:55 < LuitvD> and "I'm in my first term" or something like that
20:55 < dho> heh
20:55 < dho> yeah
20:55 < LuitvD> ah, good :)
20:55 < skelterjohn> "first woman secretary of state" is fine
20:55 < LuitvD> really?
20:55 < skelterjohn> yes
20:55 < LuitvD> sounds way too dutch :P
20:55 < skelterjohn> actually, probably "first woman secretary of the
interior"
20:56 < skelterjohn> rather than of the inside :)
20:56 < LuitvD> possibly
20:56 < LuitvD> in any way, this is the worst construction to use
20:56 < LuitvD> the worst mistranslation of that sentence humanly possible
20:57 < dho> if you want to see some good mistranslations, watch
`Godforsaken'
20:57 < LuitvD> "I could not find the head entrance" :P
20:57 < dho> (The english title for Van God Los)
20:57 < skelterjohn> head = bathroom?
20:57 < skelterjohn> or main entrance
20:57 < LuitvD> head = main
20:57 -!- wrtp [n=rog@78.150.174.161] has joined #go-nuts
20:57 < LuitvD> main is "hoofd" in dutch
20:57 < LuitvD> same word for head
20:57 < dho> the title's already an awful mistranslation
20:57 < LuitvD> yeah
20:57 < skelterjohn> what does "van god los" mean
20:58 < dho> essentially `disconnected from god'
20:58 < LuitvD> what's the right translation of "Ik krijg altijd mijn zin"?
20:58 < dho> LuitvD: I always get my way
20:58 < skelterjohn> dho: that is what godforsaken means
20:58 * LuitvD guessed right then
20:58 < dho> skelterjohn: not really
20:58 < skelterjohn> if god has forsaken you, you are disconnected from god
20:58 < LuitvD> hahaha
20:59 < skelterjohn> though i suppose as a computer scientist i should
realize that the converse is not the inverse
20:59 < dho> yes, but that requires god to forsake you
20:59 < LuitvD> and "van god los" is the person's decision
20:59 < dho> right
20:59 < dho> they are very clearly distancing themselves from god, even in
the face of ways out
20:59 < dho> in their actions in the movie
21:00 < dho> it would probably make more sense if you saw it / knew what it
was about
21:00 < LuitvD> heheh
21:00 < LuitvD> it's hard to explain movies through writing
21:00 < LuitvD> oh dear: "This is wet finger work"
21:00 < dho> i do wonder what happened to the `anna'
21:00 * LuitvD hides
21:01 < dho> heh
21:01 < LuitvD> nattevingerwerk means something quite different
21:01 < dho> LuitvD: some day i want to stand up in the office and scream
`PAUSE'
21:01 < LuitvD> :)
21:01 -!- xat_ [n=xavier@189.27.126.122.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined
#go-nuts
21:02 < LuitvD> dho: I have another one like unfortunately peanut butter
21:02 < LuitvD> "All madness on a small stick"
21:02 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad1d7d2.bb.sky.com] has quit [Connection timed out]
21:03 < dho> unfamiliar with that one
21:03 < LuitvD> alle gekheid op een stokje
21:04 -!- ericvh_ [n=ericvh@32.97.110.65] has joined #go-nuts
21:04 < dho> yeah, never heard that
21:06 * LuitvD is thinking hard to get the english equivalent
21:06 < dho> LuitvD: feel free to give me contextual use
21:06 < dho> i don't need an explination if you show me when you'd say it
21:06 < dho> idioms are good like that :)
21:07 * dho is convinced that americans acronymized lol
21:07 < LuitvD> "Do me a lol"
21:08 < dho> hahaha
21:08 < dho> do me a funny.
21:10 -!- JSharpe [n=jamie@5ad1d7d2.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts
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21:11 < dho> i'd like to see literal translations with `toch maar eens even'
21:11 < dho> i don't even know how you'd do it for toch and eens
21:11 < LuitvD> :)
21:11 < LuitvD> that's quite hard
21:12 < dho> that should i definitely but once even do if i you was
21:12 < LuitvD> especially because I know enough English to know the correct
translation
21:12 < dho> maybe
21:13 < LuitvD> hm, no, that's not humanly possible
21:14 < LuitvD> if someone knows the word definitely it won't use it there
21:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7b265 by [Russ Cox] in
go/misc/dashboard/godashboard/ -- godashboard: fiddling
21:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7b26r by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- add
definition of new parameter style
21:16 < LuitvD> meanwhile, Cox and Pike are hard at work :P
21:16 < LuitvD> eh, working hard
21:17 < happy> LuitvD: I still have not fugured out who in the irc works for
google
21:17 < happy> I know cox works for google (email is a dead give away)
21:17 < happy> but if he is in the irc, it is not obvious
21:18 < LuitvD> haven't seen him here yet...
21:18 < happy> how long have you been in the chan?
21:19 < skelterjohn> i hate writing papers
21:19 < happy> skelterjohn: and I hate english regents (did 4 bs essays in
two days)
21:19 * skelterjohn hopes to have a decent http://www.icml2010.org/ submission by
2/1
21:20 < LuitvD> 2/ 1?
21:20 < skelterjohn> february first
21:20 < happy> feb first
21:20 * LuitvD headdesks
21:20 < skelterjohn> you might call it 1/2/2010
21:20 * LuitvD hates the imperial notation
21:20 < LuitvD> 2010-02-01
21:20 * happy hides at the use of big words
21:20 < LuitvD> or 01-02-2010
21:21 < LuitvD> that's convenient
21:21 < LuitvD> ordered by significance
21:21 < skelterjohn> happy: i'm lucky in that i no longer have to deal with
literature critiquing anymore
21:21 < happy> good for you
21:21 < happy> I am in lit hell
21:21 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)]
21:21 < skelterjohn> but it's not like i haven't paid my dues
21:21 < happy> lol
21:22 -!- ericvh [n=ericvh@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection
timed out)]
21:22 < happy> skelterjohn: what would be a good name for a path.Join that
takes []string?
21:22 < happy> path.JoinAll?
21:22 < skelterjohn> i dunno
21:22 < skelterjohn> what's it do
21:22 < LuitvD> join all strings to a path I guess
21:22 < skelterjohn> what does the original path.Join do
21:23 < skelterjohn> LuitvD: underspecified
21:23 -!- adamparcher [n=adamparc@99-6-45-15.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has
joined #go-nuts
21:23 < happy> turns JoinAll([]string{"1", "2", "3"}) -> "1/2/3"
21:23 -!- chachan [n=chachan@200.44.157.246] has quit ["KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0,
revision: 3763, sources date: 20091222, built on: 2010-01-08 08:47:55 UTC
http://www.kvirc.net/"]
21:24 < skelterjohn> path.Concat
21:24 < skelterjohn> or path.Cat
21:24 < happy> skelterjohn: the original is already called Join
21:24 < skelterjohn> which is why i suggested Concat or Cat
21:24 < happy> It should probably include Join in the name
21:25 < happy> JoinAll, JoinSlice...
21:25 < skelterjohn> do you just call path.Join a bunch of times?
21:25 < happy> no
21:25 < skelterjohn> you should :)
21:25 < happy> skelterjohn: I think my way is more efficient with less
calls.  Not that something this small matters
21:25 < skelterjohn> reduce({"1","2","3"}, path.Join)
21:26 < happy> what is this reduce?!
21:26 < skelterjohn> the point being, ifyou just call Join then changes to
Join work in your function as well
21:26 < skelterjohn> reduce is a list operation
21:26 < skelterjohn> it's not part of the go standard library
21:26 < happy> cool
21:26 < LuitvD> reduce is a common operation with lists
21:27 < LuitvD> zips through the list passing two (or sometimes more) items
of the list to a function and putting the function's return value back in it
21:27 < happy> ok
21:28 < skelterjohn> well, reduce might not be the right one here
21:28 < happy> good to know :-)
21:28 < skelterjohn> since the order of arguments in Join is important
21:28 < happy> I would have to make a whole loop for that
21:28 < happy> ok
21:28 < happy> I am going to leave my function how it is and submit it.
After testing of course :-)
21:28 < skelterjohn> i definitely think you should use path.Join
21:29 < skelterjohn> if you think path.Join is efficient, also submit a new
version of it
21:29 < happy> skelterjohn: hm...
21:30 < happy> I am not sure if it matters, but I did not want to call join
a bunch of times
21:30 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts
21:30 < happy> my func just calls strings.join once
21:30 < LuitvD> is it path safe?
21:30 < happy> define safe...
21:31 < LuitvD> working properly on all operating systems?
21:31 < LuitvD> with all possible input?
21:31 < happy> I think it works on all the unix operating systems.  Which is
all go supports now
21:31 < skelterjohn> this is why you call path.Join as a subroutine
21:32 < happy> fine :-P
21:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7b5ky by [Russ Cox] in go/misc/dashboard/ --
dashboard: look for key in $GOROOT before $HOME
21:32 < LuitvD> when Windows will be added to the supported platforms,
you'll be happy you used path.Join
21:32 < LuitvD> oh wait, you're already happy ...  o.O
21:33 * LuitvD hides
21:33 < happy> LuitvD: did I tell you how I got my name?
21:33 < skelterjohn> correctness is more important than efficiency for
somethin glike join
21:33 < LuitvD> happy: nope
21:33 * LuitvD can imagine some ways
21:33 < happy> if I did, you would know happy is against my personality
21:33 < skelterjohn> that's sad
21:34 < happy> LuitvD: I needed a freenode name and I was tired
21:34 < happy> I tried sleepy
21:34 < happy> it was taken
21:34 < LuitvD> XD
21:34 < skelterjohn> should have chosen grumpy
21:34 < happy> I then thought of dwarfs
21:34 < happy> grumpy was my second try
21:34 < skelterjohn> well
21:34 * LuitvD lols
21:34 < skelterjohn> ok
21:34 < happy> it is also taken
21:34 < happy> you can test it
21:34 < happy> happy was the first one not taken
21:35 < happy> maybe I should have tried dopey...
21:35 < LuitvD> registered 14 weeks and 1 day ago, last used 13 weeks en 6
days ago
21:35 < happy> what is that?  dopey?
21:35 < happy> grumpy?
21:35 < LuitvD> grumpy
21:35 < happy> ok
21:35 < happy> well...  I tried to get grumpy :-P
21:36 < happy> I need a new name.  If you can think of one.  Let me know
21:36 < smw> what?  it is not taken?
21:36 * LuitvD used his nick since ...  gmail
21:36 < smw> ...
21:37 < smw> should I use this?
21:37 < LuitvD> smw?
21:37 < smw> initials
21:37 < LuitvD> ah
21:37 * LuitvD needs a double acetaminophen
21:37 < soul9> HA
21:37 -!- p4p4_ [n=P4p4@248.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #go-nuts
21:38 < smw> I am going to register this.
21:38 -!- adamparcher [n=adamparc@99-6-45-15.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has
quit [Client Quit]
21:38 -!- p4p4_ [n=P4p4@248.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit [Remote closed the
connection]
21:38 < soul9> anyone see
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gcc.devel/111603 ?
21:39 < MissPiggy> someone from google must be sleeping with someone from
gcc..
21:39 < LuitvD> huh, I can't register a nick when identified?
21:39 < smw> LuitvD: you need to group it
21:39 -!- amacleod [n=amacleod@c-75-69-45-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Bye
Bye"]
21:39 < MissPiggy> congrats
21:39 < smw> /ns group NormalName
21:39 < soul9> heh
21:40 < skelterjohn> iant has been involved in the gcc project for a long
time
21:40 <+iant> yes, that was mostly sorting through the licensing issues
21:40 < LuitvD> and since iant always sleeps with himself, what MissPiggy
said is true
21:41 <+iant> that was one of the impetuses for adding the explicit patent
grant to the license
21:41 <+iant> the FSF wanted to see it
21:41 <+iant> (and so did some other people)
21:41 < skelterjohn> iant: does this mean next time i install the latest
version of gcc, that gccgo will be built in?
21:41 < MissPiggy> suddenly go seems like a much more realistic language for
the future than the rest of the ones I was lumping it in with earlier
21:42 < skelterjohn> rofl
21:42 <+iant> skelterjohn: not yet; I expect that gccgo will be included in
gcc 4.6, but the next release will be 4.5
21:42 <+iant> we are close to making the release branch for 4.5
21:42 < smw> wow
21:43 < soul9> so in gentoo ~x86 it will be soon(ish) :P
21:43 < smw> why do we have two compilers for go?
21:43 < skelterjohn> I am glad to see progress with getting go to be
mainline.
21:43 < skelterjohn> smw: because gcc makes really fast code
21:43 < skelterjohn> and iant volunteered to do it
21:43 < soul9> but doesn't build static executables
21:44 <+iant> gcc *can* build static executables
21:44 < LuitvD> smw: one for speed, one for interoperability?
21:44 <+iant> oh, I see what you mean, sorry
21:44 < smw> skelterjohn: so it is fast compiles vs fast code.  How can I
ever chose between them :-)
21:44 < LuitvD> smw: simple: fast compile = testing, fast code = release
21:44 < smw> I choose fast code :-P
21:45 < smw> LuitvD: I like that idea :-)
21:45 < skelterjohn> I'm not sure that gccgo compiles slowly...
21:45 <+iant> gccgo isn't too bad but it's a lot slower than 6g
21:45 < skelterjohn> the language's grammar lends itself to fast compilation
21:45 < LuitvD> not as fast as 6g
21:45 < LuitvD> (beaten)
21:45 * LuitvD is the slow one
21:45 < dho> skelterjohn: a lot of the time isn't parsing, but optimizing.
21:45 < soul9> static executable = interoperable through the same arch
21:45 < LuitvD> I bet gccgo is faster than I am
21:46 < skelterjohn> then we may see 6g slow down, as it gets smarter about
optimizing
21:46 < LuitvD> who knows
21:47 < smw> if go makes it into the offical gcc (and on most distros) I
will be happy :-)
21:47 < LuitvD> the way Go handles dependencies makes it fast
21:47 < LuitvD> s/fast/compile fast/
21:48 < MissPiggy> can you interact with C libraries very easily using Go?
21:48 < MissPiggy> like you don't have to make 'bindings' and all that
rubbish
21:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7b8Or by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- note that
...T is not yet implemented.
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21:51 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: everything that's not C need C bindings for
libraries with no native library access
21:52 < dho> should i stop ignoring it now?
21:53 < smw> dho: it seems to be talking like a human.  I do not see any
reason not to treat it like a person
21:53 < MissPiggy> LuitvD, I don't argee
21:53 < dho> ok
21:53 < LuitvD> MissPiggy: why?
21:54 < MissPiggy> LuitvD, well there are some lisp systems where you don't
have to write bindings because you can just use the C functions directly
21:54 < LuitvD> err...  yeah
21:55 < dho> MissPiggy: With the 6g and 6c compilers, you can call C code
and C code can call Go code.
21:55 < LuitvD> with cgo you can do something like that
21:55 < MissPiggy> dho fuck off
21:55 < dho> No.
21:55 < MissPiggy> sounds cool LuitvD
21:55 < LuitvD> though bindings are not just to use the libs
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21:55 < MissPiggy> dho just piss off, it was fine when you weren't here
causing a fuss calling people names
21:55 < LuitvD> it's to translate the native interface to a Go-ified
interface
21:55 < dho> Grow up, kid.
21:56 < dho> LuitvD: not exactly
21:56 < LuitvD> mostly
21:56 < smw> MissPiggy: you need to treat him kindly.  Before you were
acting like a troll.  He is now talking to you like a human.  Don't prove his
point
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21:57 < LuitvD> dho: with cairo, nearly all functions were called with the
cairo_t* as the first argument
21:57 < LuitvD> in an OO-ish language that'd become a method for that type
21:57 < dho> Right, but it's less of a translation than a shim layer
21:57 < LuitvD> and type translation almost always needs to be done
21:59 < soul9> is there a cgi interface for go?  web framework?  CMS?  :P
21:59 < dho> soul9: yes, yes, no.
21:59 < smw> web.go
21:59 < soul9> cool
21:59 < soul9> ooh
21:59 < soul9> thanks
21:59 * soul9 digs
22:00 < dho> I believe it's getwebgo.com
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22:00 < dho> or .org or something
22:00 < LuitvD> .com
22:01 < soul9> getwebgo.com yep
22:03 < dho> LuitvD: it is also worth noting that if you do compile C code
with 6c, cgo is unnecessary
22:04 < LuitvD> ah, yes
22:06 < dho> Would be interesting to have a posix libc implementation that
is compilable with 6c.
22:07 < dho> iant: Once there is a Go compiler in Go, 6c won't die will it?
22:08 <+iant> dho: I think a bigger issue would be whether all the C code
will ever be removed from the runtime
22:08 < dho> I think there's a good case for not removing the asm at least
22:08 <+iant> yes, for sure
22:08 < dho> well that's good.
22:16 < LuitvD> I need to get some rest
22:16 < dho> truste
22:16 < LuitvD> my head is nearly exploding
22:16 < LuitvD> I feel aweful
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22:16 < LuitvD> s/awe/aw/
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22:17 < smw> skelterjohn: http://codereview.appspot.com/195077/show happy?
I did it your way :-P.
22:23 < skelterjohn> hooray
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22:24 < e4f6217c2e> Hello.  Congratulations to Ian Taylor on getting the
gccgo frontend into gcc!  What is the state of garbage collection in the frontend?
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22:45 <+iant> e4f6217c2e: thanks; there is still no real garbage collection,
though I'm working on it
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22:55 < droid0011> iant: how should I cross-compile 5* for arm, with
GOARCH=arm all-arm.bash or all.bash ?
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22:56 <+iant> droid0011: I think all-arm.bash is right; basically it omits
some things which don't build for the ARM yet
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23:18 < droid0011> iant: thanks, but I must be doing something wrong.  I
tried to compile simple print("hello word") but the arm binary is not working:
qemu-arm -cpu cortex-a8 ./5.out gives me "mmap: Invalid argument" and on an
android device the process just get killed :(
23:18 <+iant> droid0011: sorry, no idea; send a note to the list and/or kaib
23:18 <+iant> I haven't used the ARM port
23:18 < dho> I think the ARM port generates ARM-5 code.
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23:19 < uriel>
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/auhvk/go_frontend_to_gcc_accepted_for_inclusion/
23:19 < uriel> iant: congrats!
23:20 <+iant> thanks
23:21 < mpl> dho: afaik at some point it wasn't and kai was thinking of
doing so given the number of platforms which were arm5.
23:22 < dho> ah
23:22 < fgb> qemu-arm -cpu cortex-a8 ./5.out ..  doesn't qemu need a kernel
as argument..
23:22 < fgb> I'm I completely missed the point?
23:23 < fgb> *am
23:23 < dho> GOARM=x will apparently specify what arm arch to generate for
23:23 < mpl> yes
23:23 < dho> not sure what the default is
23:23 < mpl> you need to set goarm and rerun make-arm
23:24 < dho> ah, it defaults to 6 i guess
23:24 < dho> but
23:24 < dho> I don't think that's pertinent anymore
23:25 < dho> only reference I see to it is in pkg/runtime/Makefile
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23:30 < fgb> droid0011, you still there?
23:30 < droid0011> yes
23:31 < fgb> so, you tried 5.out as if it was a kernel, is that supposed to
work?
23:31 < fgb> and there also the matter of what libraries were linked to that
5.out and if those libs where compatible with android
23:32 < fgb> *there's
23:32 < droid0011> oh
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23:33 < fgb> damn, my english is worst than ever today
23:33 < fgb> anyways, that should give you some pointers
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23:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7btY5 by [Russ Cox] in 3 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
implement defer print/println/panic/panicln
23:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7btYg by [Ken Thompson] in 7 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- change print print buffer size
23:36 < droid0011> fgb: thanks, I found this in test/run-arm: export
E="qemu-arm -cpu cortex-a8 so I think it actually should work ...
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23:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7bwU1 by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of
go/misc/dashboard/ -- dashboard: builder tweaks
23:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7bwUb by [Russ Cox] in go/doc/talks/ -- ucsd
cns talk, focused on networking
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 28 00:00:50 2010