--- Log opened Thu Feb 04 00:00:35 2010
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00:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7EpZC by [Russ Cox] in 4 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- ld: include main and runtime in the library loop
00:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7EpZU by [Russ Cox] in 6 subdirs of go/ --
finalizers; merge package malloc into package runtime
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01:03 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7Ev2c by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/debug/gosym/
-- debug/gosym: fix test for new 6l
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04:16 <+kaib> evening everyone
04:26 < anticw> 'evening
04:27 < anticw> kaib: do you have a recent andoid device like a droid or
nexus one?
04:28 <+kaib> i have a nexus one somewhere, but i'm mainly using some proto
phone the android folks gave me a while back
04:29 < anticw> you're tried go on those devices i take it?
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04:44 <+kaib> anticw: i've tried it on the proto phone, but not on the
nexus.
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05:06 < nf> kaib: i'm adg btw
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05:20 <+kaib> nf: adg?
05:25 < anticw> heh, i wondered that too ...  googling it gave me some odd
results
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05:36 <+kaib> anticw: oh, i know him but it didn't make immediate sense ..
:-)
05:37 < anticw> it still doesnt to me :)
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05:50 <+kaib> anticw: he is adg@golang.org, he just happens to have an old
nick nf that he's been using.
05:51 < nf> :)
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05:54 < anticw> os.Fork is missing ...  this seems like it's probably
deliberate
05:54 < anticw> anyone know why?
05:54 < anticw> (yes, i really do need fork)
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05:57 < anticw> another unrelated q ...  can i reopen a CL? i saw some noise
about it but what was dicussed seems out of date now
05:57 < Amaranth> the only reason I can think of for fork is to "daemonize"
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05:58 <+iant> anticw: if the CL still exists you can reopen it
05:58 <+iant> anticw: fork basically doesn't for multi-threaded programs
05:58 <+iant> anticw: I think there is an open issue about starting a daemon
process, that does need to be addressed somehow
05:59 <+iant> I don't think it's going to be possible to use fork in any
other way
05:59 <+iant> I meant to say: fork basically doesn't work for multi-threaded
programs
06:00 < anticw> iant: well, it does work ...  you just dont get the other
threads
06:01 < anticw> iant: the runtime could be told those threads are gone
though
06:01 <+iant> right, but in the context of Go that means failure
06:01 < anticw> iant: threads are created as goroutines block ...  and
reaped when not needed, and reused
06:01 <+iant> some threads may be holding locks at the point of the fork;
what should happen to them?
06:01 < anticw> (im talking the 6g runtime of course)
06:02 < anticw> iant: what kind of locks?  blocked on syscalls?
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06:02 < anticw> iant: or you mean a spinlock or something internal to go?
06:02 <+iant> there are a number of locks in the runtime: in the scheduler,
in the memory allocator
06:02 <+iant> why do you want fork?
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06:03 < anticw> iant: i knew that was coming ...  because i want a process
to generate multiple child processes and not-exec
06:03 <+iant> I don't see how to make that safely work in Go
06:03 <+iant> or really in any multi-threaded program
06:03 <+iant> unless you can ensure that all threads are stopped in a safe
state before you call fork
06:03 < anticw> it works fine in python for the most part
06:04 <+iant> python is normally single-threaded
06:04 < anticw> by there the interpreter in a single-thread
06:04 < anticw> right
06:04 < anticw> but doesn't go require stopping all threads to gc right now?
06:04 < anticw> and similar?
06:04 <+iant> right now it requires stopping all threads but that is not the
plan going forward
06:05 <+iant> there may be brief moments where threads are stopped, I
suppose
06:05 <+iant> but even then there is no guarantee that those stopped threads
are not holding locks
06:06 < anticw> ok ...  back to that ...  how are those locks held?
sleeping on some primitive?
06:06 < anticw> something implemented with the OS?
06:06 <+iant> it's a compare-and-swap lock based on a system dependent
syscall
06:06 <+iant> on GNU/Linux it uses futexes
06:07 < anticw> which means the syscall blocks
06:07 <+iant> yes
06:07 < anticw> so in theory you could recreate those threads if you knew
about them well enough
06:08 <+iant> I suppose that is true in theory
06:08 <+iant> can you explain further why you want this feature?
06:08 <+iant> do you want the child and parent to communicate at all?
06:08 < anticw> yes
06:08 <+iant> can you just have the program fork and exec itself?
06:08 < anticw> typically you fork a child and have it do work ...  if it
crashes (when) the parent is still alive
06:09 < anticw> it gives some degress of isolation that threaded programs
dont
06:09 <+iant> sure
06:09 < anticw> iant: yes, it can fork + exec itself ...  but that's a lot
more work
06:09 <+iant> but that is a fork-and-exec case, not just fork
06:09 <+iant> it's not that much more work, the program which forks the
child and waits is basically different from the program which runs in the child
06:10 < anticw> iant: btw, a lot of daemons fork a child and 'watch' it and
respawn as needed
06:10 < anticw> fork vs fork + exec means the setup/init is more work
06:10 <+iant> totally agreed that some sort of daemonization support is
needed; that is a special case
06:10 < anticw> well, this is more than just daemonize ...  mysql, squid for
example ...  they have 'parent' process that watch things
06:10 <+iant> I would tend to write that as two separate programs, but
perhaps in some cases a single program would be more convenient
06:10 < anticw> sshd is another example though different
06:11 <+iant> I think that DJB's daemontools is a good model
06:11 < anticw> in fact, ssh forks a child to do work that might be ata high
risk to a compromise
06:11 <+iant> if we could reasonably provide fork, we would certainly do it,
but it seems to me to be a huge amount of work for a relatively small reward
06:12 <+iant> and would be an ongoing maintenance burden
06:12 < anticw> that much i agree with, it could be a lot of effort
06:13 < anticw> esp.  if the method we have now to stop threads to gc goes
away
06:14 < anticw> iant: sorry to be dumb, how to i reopen a CL? searching i
found i could uncheck a box ...  one i dont see
06:14 < anticw> oh, under edit
06:14 < anticw> im retarded
06:14 < anticw> and i never click about enough
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06:16 < anticw> oh, except hg change won't let me change it
06:17 <+iant> well, I suppose you can just start a new CL
06:17 < anticw> yeah, that would be easier i think, im being pedantic :/
06:20 < anticw> ok, so in $REPO/.hg/codereview ...  there are files cl.# ...
you can fake them out i guess
06:20 < anticw> seems to work
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06:27 < anticw> iant: ok ...  beating a dead horse ...  is there generically
any way to detect if it's safe to fork?  like the # of current hw threads being
used?
06:28 <+iant> you have to know about all locks that the goroutines might be
holding; it's possible for a goroutine to context switch to another goroutine
while holding a program lock, which could be a lock in some library
06:29 < anticw> but that would be done by the runtime
06:29 < anticw> and the runtime can detect when all gorotines are blocked
...  because it panics
06:30 < anticw> so it seems there is a case where you could have an ugly,
maybe not very usable, os.ForkIfYouCan() or something
06:30 <+iant> I'm not sure the runtime can know about user space locks
06:31 < anticw> of the OS does the ctx switch sure, but goroutines are muxed
on threads by the runtime right now for 6g
06:31 < anticw> actually, it's going to be very racy even doing that
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06:43 < Discoloda> no really related to Go: is there a CSP library for C
that is available to linux?
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06:52 < anticw> iant: ok, ForkExec is *very* slow for some reason
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07:05 < fgb> Discoloda, yes
07:06 < fgb> you http://swtch.com/libtask/ or you could use Plan 9's
thread(2) port to unix that comes with http://swtch.com/plan9port/
07:06 < fgb> both by rsc
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07:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FvRf by [Rob Pike] in go/ -- add apple's
.DS_Store to ignored list
07:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FvRB by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/time/ -- Add
RFC822 formats as named constants.
07:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FvSg by [Russ Cox] in go/src/ -- arm: toss
make-arm.bash
07:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FvSF by [Kai Backman] in 4 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- search for runtime.a in the package path instead of hardcoding
07:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FvT5 by [Christopher Wedgwood] in 3 subdirs
of go/src/pkg/runtime/ -- os/signal: send SIGCHLDs to Incoming
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08:27 < vpit3833> hi, how can I fix cat.go:4: fatal error: can't find
import: ./file I get when trying to compile the cat.go on the tutorial page?
08:28 < anticw> it needs file compiled first
08:28 < anticw> 6g file.go or similar
08:29 < vpit3833> i get the error for doing 6g cat.go
08:29 < vpit3833> where could I be going wrong?
08:29 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FFbb by [Petar Maymounkov] in
go/src/pkg/http/ -- http: use ChunkWriter in Request.Write
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09:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FOZP by [Nigel Tao] in go/src/pkg/image/ --
Add named colors (e.g.  image.Blue), suitable for exp/draw.
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10:17 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7FWhq by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/syscall/ --
syscall: on freebsd, darwin, give Kill same signature as on linux
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14:47 < rsaarelm> http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/contest/index.php No Go support
yet...
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14:52 < tav> anyone know what go's SSL support is like?
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15:04 < ilsanto> hi all
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15:05 < rsaarelm> The AI contest talks with stdout, so you can just whip up
your own Go bot.
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16:21 < skelterjohn> morning
16:22 < dagle> Afternoon.  :)
16:32 < skelterjohn> i think this should compile:
http://pastebin.com/m4a0bc39c
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16:33 < skelterjohn> it doesn't, because the return type of S2's bar() isn't
the same as I2's bar
16:34 < skelterjohn> but what S2's bar() returns can always be what I2's
bar() returns
16:35 < skelterjohn> i suppose they are technically returning different
things...an interface wrapping an obj vs an obj
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16:42 < adu> hi again
16:42 < skelterjohn> hi, adu
16:43 < adu> does gccgo compile to mach-o?
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16:51 < adu> i guess i won't take the chance it doesn't, so I'll stick with
gc
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16:56 < adu> wb skelterjohn
16:57 < skelterjohn> thanks.
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17:04 < adu> YEY i wrote a hello world
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17:04 < adu> step2: arbitrary precision calculator
17:05 < adu> step3: DHTML web browser
17:06 < adu> (jk)
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17:19 < anticw> adu: gccgo compiles to whatever you target it to
17:20 < adu> yeah, but mach-o isn't a valid target in standard gcc
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17:21 < adu> standard gcc only supports what binutils does iirc
17:22 < adu> and binutils doesn't support mach-o
17:22 < anticw> apple uses gcc, so there much be support somewhere if not
merged surely
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17:22 < adu> yes, apple's fork of gcc supports mach-o, obviously
17:23 < anticw> had no idea it wasn't merged back, lame
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17:24 < adu> yes, lame, but that's the way it is, I'm sticking with gc for
now
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17:39 <+iant> gcc does support Mach-O
17:39 <+iant> it uses Apples binutils
17:39 <+iant> this is normal, gcc works with many different assemblers and
linkers, not just with the GNU binutils
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17:59 < anticw> iant: the apples tools are a binutils fork?
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17:59 <+iant> Apple's tools are a binutils fork, yes, but they forked in
1991
17:59 <+iant> well, that is where their assembler came from
18:00 <+iant> they rewrote their linker from scratch about five years ago, I
think
18:00 < anticw> 1991 ...  lol, sounds like merging that back is more than a
couple of hours work
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18:00 < anticw> people who rewrite linkers are weird :)
18:00 <+iant> more than a couple of hours, but entirely doable, if they
cared
18:00 <+iant> ha ha
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18:01 < anticw> i get the feeling apple is going to move to llvm sooner or
later
18:01 <+iant> they have already done so
18:01 < anticw> for everything?
18:01 < anticw> the mcapple system i have here has gcc
18:01 <+iant> for C and Objective C, yes, for everything
18:01 <+iant> for C++ they are still using the gcc frontend to LLVM, but
they are working on their own frontend and making good progress
18:02 <+iant> you can still get gcc for Apple but you can also get LLVM
18:02 < anticw> i just have whatever rsc pointed me at, xcode or something
18:02 <+iant> LLVM's code generation is not as good as gcc's, but LLVM
compiles code faster
18:03 < anticw> gcc 2.7.x wsa nice and fast
18:03 < anticw> im not sure what we've gained since then by it being so slow
18:03 <+iant> compiled programs run faster
18:03 <+iant> that is what gcc developers care about
18:03 <+iant> that is what the people who pay gcc developers care about
18:04 <+iant> the people with money to pay gcc developers use compilation
clusters, so compilation time performance, while not completely unimportant, is
not as important as the speed of the compiled code
18:04 < anticw> oh, im not that worried so much, even dev machines here are
16x 48GB machines to parallel builds are decent
18:04 < anticw> but my laptop is much slower
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18:28 < gzmask> so by next version GCC will support golang, obj c, c++ and c
all at once is that correct?
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18:32 <+iant> gzmask: correct, in version 4.6
18:33 < gzmask> it's a shame c# is not included ....  (jk)
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18:41 < uriel> iant: any news on the garbage collection front?
18:41 <+iant> uriel: David Bacon from IBM came by and told us that our plans
were not a good idea
18:41 <+iant> so we are reconsidering again
18:41 <+iant> so, no real news
18:42 < uriel> heh :/
18:42 <+iant> it's our top priority, though
18:42 < uriel> why where the plans not a good idea?
18:42 <+iant> he thinks that we were ignoring the complexity of the cycle
detector too much
18:43 <+iant> the straight reference counting part is fine, but you need
cycle detection too
18:45 < uriel> ah, I see
18:45 < uriel> any alternatives you are thinking about then?
18:46 <+iant> there are many GC algorithms
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18:46 <+iant> we may still do reference counting anyhow
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18:46 <+iant> we may need to offer options to programs
18:46 <+iant> not sure, really
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19:01 < anticw> iant: bacon's work did cycle detection though ...  you plans
were more minimal then i take it?
19:01 <+iant> no, he was basically advising us against using his own
approach
19:01 <+iant> a criticism that has to be taken seriously
19:02 <+iant> his current work is metronome which uses a wholly different
approach to GC
19:02 <+iant> but one that is probably not well suited for Go, as it is
designed to meet hard real time requirements
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19:04 < anticw> iant: pity in some ways, recycled reads very nicely at the
'marketing level'
19:04 <+iant> we may still try it, who knows
19:05 <+iant> the use case is not identical
19:05 < anticw> well, something better than what we have now would still be
welcome even if it's not the final approach
19:06 < anticw> look at sun's jvm, they've tried several things there to get
to where they are now, that's taken quite some time with considerable resources
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19:20 < anticw> heh, rsc's integer binary search code is nice and terse
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19:50 < BleSS> I'm getting this error using xml =>
http://pastebin.com/d4d17627c
19:51 < BleSS> this is the code: http://pastebin.com/d57826b1a
19:52 < anticw> export the values
19:52 < anticw> (ie.  Title case them)
19:52 < BleSS> ok
19:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7HXlP by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- Added
Andrew Gerrand to CONTRIBUTORS
19:55 < BleSS> anticw: what values should be exported?  does identity struct
?
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19:55 < anticw> type identity struct { Version string "chardata" Generation
string "chardata" Language string "chardata"
19:55 < anticw> }
19:55 < anticw> oops
19:56 < anticw> http://pastebin.com/d2536ad65
19:56 < anticw> try that
20:02 < BleSS> anticw: it was by that,thx, although it doesn't show the data
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20:29 < BleSS> I think that there is a bug when Printf gets a nil value (it
doesn't happens with Println) *Printf("Testing nil: %s", err)*
20:29 < BleSS> http://pastebin.com/d70d59f0c
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20:55 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7IbxZ by [Andrew Gerrand] in 4 subdirs of
go/src/ -- 6l: move mapped symbol table lower in memory
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21:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7Ifal by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- A+C: Joe Poirier
(individual CLA)
21:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7IfaB by [Christopher Wedgwood] in
go/src/pkg/syscall/ -- FreeBSD: Kill only takes pid & signal
21:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7IfbF by [Christopher Wedgwood] in
go/src/pkg/time/ -- time: Sleep through interruptions
21:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7IfcB by [Joe Poirier] in
go/src/pkg/debug/proc/ -- Added mingw specific build stubs.
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21:40 < bortzmeyer> Any volunteer to alpha-test a DNS authoritative name
server?  More a research project than a real one, but light and funny (one
goroutine per DNS request) Email stephane+grong@bortzmeyer.org
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21:57 < fenicks> yep guys
21:57 < fenicks> someone knows about kerberos implementation in GO ?
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 05 00:00:36 2010