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02:23 < anticw> is there a way to declare an extern in another package
without importing it?
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04:04 < adu> hmmmmmmmm
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05:40 < anticw> just passed T-3hrs
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05:43 * Project_2501 appears \o/
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05:56 < anticw> iant: would a robust elf loader be difficult to implement?
05:57 <+iant> do you mean a dynamic linker like ld.so, or do you mean a
loader like in the kernel?
05:58 < anticw> more like ld.so ...  think dlopen
05:58 <+iant> it's possible to write ld.so but there is quite a lot of stuff
it has to handle
05:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7RkdB by [Kai Backman] in go/src/pkg/runtime/
-- fix comment
05:58 <+iant> I don't think there would be much point to writing ld.so in Go
05:59 < anticw> iant: it wouldn't be one avenue for a ffi?
05:59 <+iant> well, we have an FFI, and it uses the system ld.so
06:00 <+iant> I don't think we gain by having an ld.so written in Go
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06:00 <+iant> we say casually that 6g always produces statically linked
programs, but in fact they are, technically, dynamically linked
06:00 <+iant> they are run via the system ld.so
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06:01 < anticw> okies ...  i was just thinking about how to do 'cgo like'
things without having to bind tightly to the system libc
06:02 <+iant> I see; you could write an ld.so in Go, but having it support
all the feature would take a while, and having it be as efficient as the system
ld.so would be pretty tough
06:02 <+iant> because the system ld.so is extensively tuned
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06:03 < anticw> yeah, it seems to do well ...  try ldd on chrome sometime
...  and it loads pretty fast
06:03 * kaib thinks he finally nailed the annoying 5c register optimizer issue.
06:03 < anticw> i used to blame dyn linking for firefox and other stuff
being slow, but clearly there is a lot more to it
06:03 < anticw> kaib: oh, neat ...  what was it?  i was your posts and was
waiting for a reply out of interest
06:04 < anticw> oh, i see it
06:05 < anticw> kaib: so, how did thit not affect things greatly in the
past?
06:05 <+kaib> no clue
06:05 <+kaib> i'm suspecting that nobody really used extern register
declarations.
06:06 <+kaib> also, i have zero knowledge about the register optimizer in
5c, the fix might still not be appropriate even if it seems to work.
06:06 <+kaib> the bug triggers when you use extern register *and* have a
passage that requires you to use registers past R8.
06:07 < anticw> i guess you can always objdump -d code before and after and
verify it almost never hit anything
06:07 <+kaib> in the pkg tree there was only one or two files that triggered
it, which is why i disabled the optimizer a while back.  it got turned on by
mistake at some point.
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06:08 <+kaib> ie.  the bug was found a while back, i just never had time to
fix it.
06:09 <+kaib> iant: what is the status of arm in gccgo?  has there been a
lot of users?
06:10 <+iant> kaib: I don't think there have been any users
06:10 <+iant> at least, not that I've heard about
06:10 < no_mind> is GO ready to be used in production ?
06:10 <+kaib> iant: i thought someone sent in patches for arm support?
06:10 <+iant> no_mind: the garbage collector needs more work before serious
use
06:10 < anticw> iant: certainly some people are playing with it ...  i think
lack of GC limits it somewhat though
06:10 <+iant> kaib: hmmm, maybe you're right....
06:10 <+iant> I can't remember any more
06:11 <+kaib> iant: more precisely, fixing some bugs in the arm support..
06:11 <+kaib> iant: which would imply there is arm support and that someone
is using it enough to find bugs.  unless they are of the type that find bugs just
by sixth sense..
06:12 <+iant> they might have just been trying to build it
06:12 <+iant> there is no split stack support for ARM in gccgo, so that
would be limting
06:12 <+iant> limiting
06:12 < no_mind> iant, any pointers on what needs to be done in GC ?
06:12 <+iant> no_mind: the current GC is quite simple-minded
06:12 <+iant> it stops all the threads and does a mark and sweep
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06:13 < no_mind> hmm so we need to redesign the GC ?
06:13 <+iant> it's in progress
06:13 < no_mind> ok
06:14 < anticw> iant: to be fair, people are using Go (what is the preferred
casing of that btw) minimally right now
06:14 <+iant> yes
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06:14 <+iant> I think the preferred casing is "Go"
06:15 <+kaib> iant: that would be an issue.  when you get to that point take
a look at the morestack function preamble i wrote for 5l.  i'm certain it can be
improved upon by someone who knows arm better than me.
06:16 <+iant> I used to know ARM quite well but it's been several years
06:17 < anticw> iant: also, whilst the go GC bites a little at times, i
would make the analogy with java ...  when it started out the GC made it horribly
unusable in some cases
06:17 < anticw> but that's not been the case for some time
06:17 <+iant> yes
06:17 < anticw> certainly though sun & ibm threw a lot of resources at it
06:17 < anticw> iant: speaking of which, have you looked at the G1
collector?
06:18 <+iant> No, I haven't
06:18 < anticw> well, i mean 'some/any of the go people' ...  it seems
likely some of you have at some level
06:18 <+iant> ah, yes, that is quite possible
06:19 < anticw> the sun blog about it reads really well, but it's only a
blog so knows :)
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06:32 < no_mind> iant, any thread discussing Go GC ?
06:37 < anticw> iant: heh, i see someone else asked about dynamic loading on
the list
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09:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7RNjr by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/ --
runtime: introduce MemStatsType
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15:02 < jankoprowski> Hi everyone
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15:04 < jankoprowski> I start writing MA thesis
15:04 < jankoprowski> And consider use examples in go language
15:05 < jankoprowski> Is there any special way how Go integrate with
Makefile?
15:05 < jankoprowski> Is there anything like "docstrings" in Go?
15:08 < jankoprowski> Is there any way to use doxygen with Go?
15:08 < uriel> jankoprowski: read the docs in go-lang.org
15:09 < uriel> jankoprowski: http://golang.org/cmd/godoc/
15:09 < jankoprowski> Greate :) one success
15:09 < uriel> as for examples of go programs, see
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/go-code
15:10 < jankoprowski> Greate uriel :] wonderful links
15:10 < uriel> re Makefiles: http://golang.org/doc/code.html
15:10 < uriel> re doxygen, no clue why one would want that when you have
godoc
15:10 < jankoprowski> I found also Makefile integration:]
15:11 < jankoprowski> Here: http://golang.org/doc/code.html#tmp_31
15:11 < jankoprowski> uriel - of course.  I just don't know is there any
special doc generator in go :)
15:12 < jankoprowski> I know now that go has everything what I need.
15:13 < jankoprowski> Could You explain me in Your own words - why Go
abandon inhertiance?
15:17 < uriel> in my own words?
15:17 < uriel> because inheritance is a totally idiotic and braindead way to
organize code
15:18 < uriel> even the most fervent and mindless OO-zealots realized long
ago that composition is infinitely saner and better than inheritance
15:19 < jankoprowski> But composition doesn't reflect real world connections
in all situations.
15:19 < uriel> and inheritance does?  uhu
15:19 < jankoprowski> In many cases.
15:19 < uriel> whatever
15:20 < uriel> programs are not the real world (and the claim that the real
world is built around inheritance is plainly wrong)
15:20 < uriel> inheritance *sucks* in all possible ways, and provides
*nothing* that composition can't provide
15:21 < jankoprowski> Ok :) So I see I must learn much.  I was bred on
Victor Schtern school :]
15:21 < jankoprowski> Do You have any argumentation from google guys?
15:22 < jankoprowski> Which can convince me?
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15:23 < uriel> hell, people have been argumenting this for over two decades
now
15:24 < uriel> I don't think the go designers have even bothered discussing
this much as pretty much everyone understands and agrees on this
15:24 < uriel> http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
15:24 < uriel> btw, have you actually watched Rob's presentation?
15:24 < jankoprowski> uriel: no
15:25 * uriel sighs
15:25 < jankoprowski> hey :) nobody is perfect :]
15:26 < uriel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKnDgT73v8s&feature=related
15:27 < jankoprowski> In Poland we have totally different point of view
because many informations wasn't translate to our mother tongue.
15:27 < uriel> iant: hmm...  I can't see a link to rob's presentation in the
golang homepage, it would be nice to at least have it besides the link to Russ'
clip
15:27 < uriel> jankoprowski: what makes you think that english is the native
language of any of us?
15:27 < monty_hall> I think the inheritance hierarchy isn't "organic" not
everything can be abstracted into a tree hierarchy.
15:28 < monty_hall> I think a lot of time is spent trying to fit square pegs
into round holes.
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15:28 < jankoprowski> uriel: fine :] but all of us still learning.  This is
time to learn something for me.  When I buy a book I buy a book which are
available in polish - and this is my source of informations.
15:29 < uriel> that is a bad idea, I have not bought a book in Spanish in
over 15 years, and I wish I never had (technical books that is)
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15:30 < jankoprowski> Timeframe between polish edition of book and it
publishing in eng is so long that my informations reading in polish lang is few
years behind top trends.
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15:32 < jankoprowski> uriel: Probably You will say "You have problems with
english - stop trying to be a good computer scientist." and probably You will
right.
15:33 < uriel> really, learning enough english to be able to understand
technical documentation is not hard, even I managed!
15:33 < jankoprowski> I have problem with reading in english with
understanding so I prefer every information in my mother tongue.
15:34 < jankoprowski> But I know that good there is many fantastic articles
about this what is on the top today.
15:34 < uriel> you are assuming that translations are any good, they are
not, they are crap, properly translating technical documentation is almost
inherently impossible
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15:35 < uriel> to translate technical documentation you have to re-invent
all kinds of terms, which just cuases more confusion
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15:35 < jankoprowski> uriel: not all because in many languages there is so
many "borrowing" in language that translating technical terms isn't necessery.
15:35 < uriel> also note that most technical writting in all languages is
*crap* (specially for things like java where you have blocks of >1000 pages of
totally worthless meaningless drivel that pass for technical literature)
15:36 < jankoprowski> w8 for a moment :) i will watch this presentation
15:36 < uriel> jankoprowski: then what is the fucking point of reading a
translation?!?!?
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15:38 < jankoprowski> uriel: Many informations witch make a master not just
a guy which know what is happen is ....  hiding somewhere behind the verse.
15:38 < uriel> and will be completely lost in the translation
15:39 < jankoprowski> This is Your point of view.
15:39 < jankoprowski> whatever, thanks for Your help
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17:09 < no_mind> I am looking for instructions on I am looking for
instructions to compile go from source...  cant find anywhere
17:10 < dagle> no_mind: http://golang.org/cmd/
17:11 < dagle> What platform is you using?
17:11 < dagle> are*
17:11 < no_mind> linux x86
17:11 < no_mind> dagle, I want to compile on my machine...  and mess with
garbage collector
17:12 < jankoprowski> uriel: I red articles about OOP criticism and have
mixed feelings
17:12 < jankoprowski> uriel: This is point of view people how talk about
programming language designing
17:13 < jankoprowski> uriel: about complexity and some kind of mess behind
the engine
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17:15 < uriel> no_mind: http://golang.org/doc/install.html
17:15 < uriel> jankoprowski: it has nothing to do with 'behind the engine',
it has all to do about how one thinks about problems and how one organizes code
and programs
17:16 < jankoprowski> uriel: I understand that inheritance cause complexity
and make things slower ...  but for example "Joe Armstrong" arguments don't not
appeal to me
17:16 < uriel> inheritance is the wrong model 90% of the time, and the other
10% of the time exactly the same can be acomplished with composition
17:16 < dagle> no_mind: Just use 8c and 8l.
17:17 < uriel> jankoprowski: any idiot can make any kind of smart-sounding
arguments supporting any retarded idea, the question is if they work in practice
17:17 < jankoprowski> uriel: i'am still in my own thinking and I can't break
this wall...
17:17 < uriel> and the world is full of examples of the total disaster that
ensues when people tries to fit real problems into the inheritance paradigm
17:18 < jankoprowski> uriel: Victor Schtern arguments was really good -
really ...  I don't know who can convince me or polemic with it.
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17:34 < jankoprowski> uriel: This is hard to read for me but this defeat all
arguments I have now.
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17:34 < jankoprowski> uriel: But this is one of those articles I don't
understand.
17:34 < jankoprowski> uriel: But I'am still reading trying to understand.
17:34 < jankoprowski> jankoprowski: http://www.paulgraham.com/reesoo.html
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18:00 < rsaarelm> Inheritance in OO is really pretty messy.  I've had the
impression that people have been saying you should compose instead of inherit for
at least a decade now, and the problems come from programming languages being more
than a decade old.
18:01 < rsaarelm> Then there are the Smalltalk people who made their
inheriting OO stuff 30 years or so ago, and have been claiming that Java and C++
got it all wrong.
18:03 < rsaarelm> The Paul Graham essay looks like a pretty good summary of
OO problems.
18:04 < rsaarelm> Oh, and then there's Bertrand Meyer, who was pretty
serious at trying to do OO right, and made the Eiffel language which didn't catch
on.  He wrote a book Object-Oriented Software Construction about the stuff that
goes into it though.
18:08 < uriel> to bring things more on topic: it is really beautiful how Go
handles composition
18:11 < JBeshir> It is.
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18:49 < nictuku> the http client fails in a very funny way if you leave out
the trailing slash in a URL for http.Get()
18:49 < nictuku> ...  : malformed HTTP status code "HTML"
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18:51 < uriel> nictuku: might be an issue with the web server?
18:51 < nictuku> no, I tried with different URLs.
18:51 < uriel> I don't see how the client would care about trailing /
18:52 < nictuku> http://pastebin.com/d10ab002a if you want to see for
yourself ;-).
18:53 < nictuku> I won't open a bug report or investigate since I believe
the HTTP client is being rewritten already
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18:57 < uriel> ah, you mean trailing after the domain name?
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18:58 < uriel> nictuku: in any case it is probably a good idea to fill a bug
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18:59 < nictuku> will do
19:00 < uriel> also it will result in a test case being added, which wont
hurt
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20:09 < no_mind> I see lots of C code in GO code
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20:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/7TxXJ by [Adam Langley] in
go/src/pkg/encoding/pem/ -- encoding/pem: add marshalling support.
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20:24 < rochus> hi!
20:30 < rochus> is here anyone using xgb?  i'm searching for the
XSetErrorHandler / xcb_event_set_event_handler equivalent
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20:44 < uriel> no_mind: the current compilers and much of the runtime is
written in C, mostly for simplicity of bootstraping, there are plans to eventually
rewrite it all in Go
20:45 < uriel> but I would expect that to wait until at least the language
has settled for good
20:45 < uriel> (note that pretty much all the libraries are in pure Go, and
don't even depend on libc)
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20:55 < no_mind> uriel, thanks, could please confirm that the garbage
collector code is in src/cmd/gc
20:56 < uriel> no_mind: no, cmd/gc is the *Go* *C*ompiler
20:56 < no_mind> ok
20:56 < no_mind> so where is the gc code ?
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21:25 < uriel> no_mind: http://golang.org/src/pkg/runtime/
21:26 < uriel> as I think is well documented: the garbage collector is being
rewritten
21:28 < no_mind> urgen, yes I know it is being rewritten
21:29 < no_mind> s/ urgen / uriel
21:29 < no_mind> uriel, I am trying if it is possible to plugin a gc into GO
21:30 < uriel> replacing http://golang.org/src/pkg/runtime/mgc0.c seems
simple enough
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21:31 < uriel> but if you have trouble greping for 'Garbage collector', I'm
not too optimistic about your chances of actually writting a GC...  but hey, I
guess they might be different skils..
21:31 < uriel> (note that I had no clue where the GC code was, and it took
me about 30 seconds to find it)
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21:37 < no_mind> well I was greping gc instead of garbage collector...  so
it pointed to cmd/gc dir
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23:13 < jordyd> What happened to that site that lists go
libraries/bindings/software?
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23:16 < dagle> jordyd: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/ ?
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23:18 < jordyd> dagle, Yeah, thanks.
23:20 < uriel> did something happen to go-lang.cat-v.org in the last five
minutes since I last updated it?  :))
23:22 < jordyd> uriel, no, I just couldn't find a link to it.  :)
23:23 < jordyd> Perhaps I could have worded it better.  :)
23:24 < uriel> heh, no worries, was joking
23:24 < uriel> next time you can find it searching here:
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/go-search ;)
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 08 00:00:56 2010