--- Log opened Wed Feb 17 00:00:08 2010
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00:20 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xFRa by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/ --
runtime: fix bug in Caller documentation
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00:36 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xJ2O by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ --
specification of []int(string) and []byte(string).
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00:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xMaw by [Russ Cox] in go/doc/ -- spec:
disallow NUL in source files
00:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xMaL by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
disallow NUL byte, catch more invalid UTF-8, test
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01:39 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xV46 by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
fix build (signed char bug)
01:39 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xV4i by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/scanner/ -- go/scanner: comply with spec changes (do not allow NUL
chars)
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01:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xYbC by [Russ Cox] in 4 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
undo attempt at fixing recursive interface embedding
01:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8xYbU by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ --
install: Added gcc, build-essential to apt-get command line.
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03:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8yhNB by [Nigel Tao] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/exp/ -- Add Src and Over draw operators.
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04:04 < meatmanek> is there a way to make a channel that acts as an
expanding queue?
04:05 < anticw> meatmanek: not really
04:05 < uriel> you could have a goroutine that managed that
04:06 < uriel> with two channels
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04:06 < skelterjohn> channels are only FIFO if they're buffered, and only
for the buffered sends, I believe
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[]
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04:45 < anticw> is cgo limited to shared libraries only right now?
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05:22 < uriel> anticw: yes
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05:33 < no_mind> is there a package in go called httplib or is it http ? I
am getting an error "fatal error: can't find import: httplib" while building
gocouch package
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06:10 < uriel> no_mind: ls is your friend
06:10 < uriel> (and grep)
06:11 < uriel> http://golang.org/pkg/http/
06:11 < no_mind> uriel, I figured out the problem.  It is some third party
package
06:11 < no_mind> uriel, it was not mentioned as dependency in the gocouch
pacakge.  After asking few questions to Google, I found the correct package
06:12 < uriel> interesting, do you have a link to that package?  is it
mentioned somewhere in http://go-lang.cat-v.org?
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06:14 < no_mind> uriel, yes both packages are on http://go-lang.cat-v.org
gocouch as well as httplib
06:15 < uriel> ah, cool, just making sure I was not missing anything, sleep
time for me now :)
06:15 < uriel> have fun!
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06:22 < drhodes> Trying to get programs A and B to have two way IPC with
netchans (even though theress a TODO stating that imports can only Recv).  Program
A exports a netchan, It exec.Run to open B and passes the exporters.Addr.String()
to os.Args of B, and B imports the netchan.  As far as I can tell there is no way
to send data back to A, (without resorting to sockets or temp files)
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06:33 < anticw> iant: if you allow NULs are they valid whitespace?  ::)
06:33 <+iant> no....
06:33 <+iant> they would only be valid in strings or comments
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11:33 < meatmanek> awesome
11:33 < meatmanek> you can make a (seemingly) unlimited-size buffered
channel in 12 lines of code
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16:40 < TMKCodes> Do i have to use the package thing on every file i create
for go?
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16:47 < rsaarelm> If you're asking if all files must be declared to be in
some package, then yes, I think so.
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17:02 < rsaarelm> And great that the previous cgo bug got fixed.  Now I
could report the next cgo bug against hg tip.
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17:05 < uriel> rsaarelm: hehe
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17:09 < rsaarelm> I like being able to reward the devs for their hard work.
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17:44 < TMKCodes> Why there's no go book for newbies?
17:47 < exch> cos go isnt finished yet I presume
17:47 < exch> don't let that stop you from writing one though
17:47 < TMKCodes> Why there's no go book for newbies?
17:47 < TMKCodes> lol sorry
17:48 < TMKCodes> yeah sure, even tough i'm not the best book writer, but
would be nice to get my name on the first go book :P
17:48 < exch> at the risk that it'll probably need a full rewrite by the
time you are finished
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17:55 < TMKCodes> possible :P
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17:59 < uriel> TMKCodes: what is wrong with:
http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html ?!??
17:59 < uriel> really, if you can't understand that tutorial, you probably
should not be programming in Go
18:00 < uriel> of course a The Go Programming Language in the style of k&r
would be great, but not essential and at this point would be premature
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18:14 < TMKCodes> Uriel, nothings wrong with it.  Have i said something like
that?  I was talking about tutorials for newbies.
18:15 < TMKCodes> Everyone is not the Linux C/C++ geek
18:16 < TMKCodes> and you should know schools are moving to linux at least
here in finland.
18:16 < TMKCodes> so there comes more and more linux users all the time.
18:17 < TMKCodes> some of them might want to learn programming and with Go
and might not get most of the stuff what on the Golang.org tutorials has.
18:17 < TMKCodes> and i really seem to know how to make english sentences.
:P
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18:19 < uriel> TMKCodes: again, if you can't understand that tutorial, Go is
probably not for you (and probably no other programming language is for you
either)
18:20 < TMKCodes> If i would not be able to understand it how the heck i
would start to write a book for newbies?
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18:27 < TMKCodes> Uriel think being 15 year student who just can understand
what mp3 and avi file are and knows how to use utorrent for piracy.  Now he wants
to make his own app's as he has got interested on PC's more.  Would he want to
learn Go when under the Tutorial link is tutorial for C/C++ experts or other old
time programmers.
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18:28 < TMKCodes> and after Hello World you move to Why we don't need
semicolons?  Like i would care, i wanna know where to use them.
18:29 < TMKCodes> yes, the tutorial is good for C/C++ programmers, but does
not invite any new flesh.
18:35 < TMKCodes> I do know inviting experienced Programmers to the language
brings faster libraries and such, but reason that the language changes still and
is new is not reason not to invite newbies.  Humans can adapt to changes.
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18:38 < skelterjohn> humans can, sure.  but newbies can't
18:39 < skelterjohn> you seem to want a tutorial on programming that just
happens to use go as its implementation language
18:39 < TMKCodes> No i just got annoyed at uriel
18:39 < skelterjohn> it could work, might be interesting.  i don't think
it's a priority.
18:40 < TMKCodes> anyway there's suchs tutorials for almost every language
18:40 < skelterjohn> ok.
18:41 < skelterjohn> for languages that have hit version 1.0, maybe
18:41 < skelterjohn> i wonder if anyone knows if there has been progress on
how generics might work in go, yet
18:42 < TMKCodes> I do not know that.
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18:42 < skelterjohn> that's the major building block that is missing, for me
18:43 < skelterjohn> having the trade-off be between copy-pasting code or
having runtime type assertions is annoying
18:43 < TMKCodes> Anyway.  i'm myself new with go i do not know how far it
is or stuff like that, but i know it's been here at least for 7months
18:44 < skelterjohn> it was made public in the beginning of last november
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18:56 < TMKCodes> so skelterjohn my memory is making tricks to me again?
18:56 < TMKCodes> Possible :P
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18:59 < skelterjohn> it has existed since before that
18:59 < TMKCodes> yeah, but i bet i was on golang.org last summer
18:59 < TMKCodes> or my memory's really once again tricking me.
19:00 < skelterjohn> nov.  is the announcement/press conference, i think
19:01 < TMKCodes> Ok. Really my head saying it's been there already last
summer.
19:01 < skelterjohn> do you realize that what i am saying doesn't contradict
what you're saying?  i feel like you're being sort of confrontational
19:01 < skelterjohn> so, i'm gonna stop.
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19:03 < TMKCodes> yeah i do realize that, but it's odd when you've been
thinking that it's been there longer than it the really has.
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20:01 < no_mind> is there a way to deploy go binary package ? something like
jar file
20:02 < skelterjohn> to be built into another go program?  or to be
dynamically linked to an already-compiled go program?
20:03 < skelterjohn> with 6g/8g at least, i don't think there is any dynamic
linking.  gccgo does things differently
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20:07 < Dynetrekk> short question: how is go support for numerics - arrays
and complex numbers etc?  and, if lacking, will that change?
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20:08 < skelterjohn> there is a complex number package
20:08 < skelterjohn> but it doesn't, for instance, use the arithmetic
operators +,- etc
20:08 < no_mind> lets say I write a go app, now I want to add plugins to
that program, without recompiling show thing.  So I will either dynamically link
both programs or use some protocol to communicate between two.  In both cases I
need to compile the plugin and deploy it somewhere to be of any use.  How do I
achieve this modular design in GO ?
20:08 < Dynetrekk> yeah, but is it built-in and fast, like that of e.g.
fortran?
20:08 < skelterjohn> there is a matrix package (by me) available on
go-lang.cat-v.org
20:09 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: good job :)
20:09 < skelterjohn> :)
20:09 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: a language with that stuff built in would be
great.  that is, a language that is not fortran.
20:09 < skelterjohn> C++
20:10 < skelterjohn> i think python can handle that sort of thing too
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20:10 < skelterjohn> using complex numbers with the same syntax that one
would use real numbers, that is
20:11 < KirkMcDonald> Yes, Python has a built-in complex type.
20:12 < KirkMcDonald> 2j + 5
20:12 < skelterjohn> oh cool
20:12 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: C++ does not have complex numbers and arrays
built in.  python is freakin' great, but a tad slow at times.
20:12 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: yeah, but also the speed is important at
times
20:12 < KirkMcDonald> >>> type(2j + 5)
20:12 < KirkMcDonald> <type 'complex'>
20:12 < skelterjohn> Dynetrekk: you can make a "complex" class that uses
templates in C++
20:12 < skelterjohn> and that will be efficient
20:13 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: oh, and numpy and scipy packages make python
better than most languages for numerics more generally
20:13 < skelterjohn> whether or not it's an original piece of the language
is less important
20:13 < KirkMcDonald> Oh, and D has primitive imaginary and complex types.
20:13 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: is it?  it will be slower if you wrap it in
object orientation, and you will end up with different implementations at some
point...
20:14 < skelterjohn> Dynetrekk: the C++ compiler is really good at
optimizing that away
20:14 < skelterjohn> i mean, operations on complex numbers aren't
compl...er...difficult
20:14 < skelterjohn> when you add one number it adds two numbers instead
20:15 < skelterjohn> multiplying is 4 mults
20:15 < skelterjohn> not a lot of room for inefficiency, really
20:15 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: might be, but I can't take any complex class
and use it with any linalg library etc
20:15 < skelterjohn> that's true.  good point.
20:15 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: hm, but what if I write a complex class...
and want to use my complex number in a matrix?
20:16 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I really think it's a great idea to have
complex numbers in the language, just like python does
20:16 < skelterjohn> then either your matrix library has to know about the
complex class somehow, or it needs to be a part of the language
20:16 < Dynetrekk> thank you, python people :9
20:16 < skelterjohn> i'm on board with you now
20:16 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: yep, I'd put it in the language if I was
boss of things
20:16 < skelterjohn> go hasn't got anything like that built in
20:16 < skelterjohn> and my matrix library certainly has no idea about
complex numbers
20:17 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: that's sad (I think)
20:17 < skelterjohn> not that this is a reason for not having them, but i
have no idea what you'd do with complex numbers and matrices
20:17 < skelterjohn> i use LA for probability stuff
20:18 < skelterjohn> i'm not a mathematician or an engineer
20:18 < skelterjohn> those guys probably need complex numbers
20:18 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I think we should have complex for the same
reason as we have floats
20:19 < skelterjohn> wouldn't mind if we had integer, real and complex as
the numeric types
20:19 < skelterjohn> or int, real, complex
20:19 < skelterjohn> instead of int, float
20:20 < skelterjohn> i don't think that complex will ever appear as a
primitive in go, but i'm not on the team so that doesn't mean a lot
20:20 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I'm working on my phd in physics.  I
definitely need complex matrices, they show up in electromagnetism and quantum
mechanics, for example.  not insignificant fields.
20:20 < skelterjohn> but my impression is that go isn't designed as a
scientific language
20:20 < KirkMcDonald> I always liked D's float/double/real distinction.
20:20 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I should suggest it to someone
20:20 < skelterjohn> perhaps start a thread on the mailing list discussing
why it's important
20:20 < skelterjohn> give them the examples you gave me
20:21 < Dynetrekk> anyhow, python is not a "scientific" language, but it is
a great scientific language because it has complex and great libraries
20:21 < skelterjohn> python is a prototyping language, in my view
20:21 < KirkMcDonald> Where float and double are 32 and 64 bits,
respectively, and real is defined to be whatever the maximum precision supported
by the hardware is.
20:21 < skelterjohn> you can prototype scientific stuff
20:21 < KirkMcDonald> Which is 80 bits on x86.
20:22 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: it is very useful for not too demanding
stuff.  it can replace e.g.  $10k Matlab in all cases that I've encountered, for
example
20:22 < dj_tjerk> but if you want less precision, and more speed (SSE
stuff), how would you get that?
20:22 < Dynetrekk> KirkMcDonald: I see, nice
20:22 < KirkMcDonald> dj_tjerk: Given that D doesn't explicitly support SSE,
you'd use inline assembly.
20:22 < skelterjohn> what is SSE?
20:22 < dj_tjerk> so you'd have to convert the 80 bits numbers to
floats/doubles first?
20:22 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: and work easily with experimental data,
plotting, etc etc.  python is great.
20:23 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streaming_SIMD_Extensions
20:23 < KirkMcDonald> dj_tjerk: If you're working at this lower precision,
you might start at that precision in the first place.
20:24 < skelterjohn> i think an additional "real" and "complex" type would
be really useful
20:24 < skelterjohn> leave float64 etc alone
20:27 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: SSE makes parallel numerical operations...
well...  parallel, on a low level
20:31 < skelterjohn> I'm not an expert on C++ templating, but couldn't you
have the matrix class use a templated type, use the +, -, * operators on it, and
then feed it a class with those operators defined?
20:31 < skelterjohn> wouldn't that just work?
20:32 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: presumably, yes...  but I still think a
complex primitive type would be a great thing (TM).  an object invariably uses
more memory than 2 floats.
20:33 < skelterjohn> says who
20:33 < skelterjohn> i see no reason why
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20:33 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: well, just me, so I might be wrong.
20:33 < skelterjohn> a class with two float fields, no virtual methods
20:33 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: you do have to store the functions and so
on?
20:33 < skelterjohn> not if they aren't virtual functions
20:34 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: hm, maybe I'm thinking java.  there, all
functions are virtual.
20:34 < skelterjohn> anything that can be known at compile time doesn't have
to be stored at runtime
20:34 < skelterjohn> in java, this is certainly true
20:34 < skelterjohn> that the class is more overhead than just two flots
20:34 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I'd be surprised if this was the case in
C++, but who knows
20:35 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: still, it would require that your complex
class conforms to what your matrix class expects: + - * /, but also real part and
imaginary part operators, for example
20:35 < skelterjohn> depending on how you compile the C++ code, it could
either be exactly the size of two floats, or it could have some type information
hidden in there
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20:38 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: hm.  but then, you're depending on compiler
flags etc.  to achieve efficiency
20:38 < skelterjohn> it's usually a compiler flag you add that will make it
less efficient
20:38 < skelterjohn> i'm thinking of RTTI stuff
20:38 < skelterjohn> real time type information
20:38 < skelterjohn> that's off by default
20:38 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: hm, I'm not familiar with that
20:38 < skelterjohn> it allows you to do type assertions on pointers
20:39 < skelterjohn> among other things, probably
20:39 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: however, it is a fact that fortran supports
things like complex numbers and matrix multiplication in the language itself,
while C++ depends on external libraries.  so if you want one function from one
library and one from another, you might wind up with 2 matrix classes and
converting between them
20:39 < skelterjohn> the complex class is part of the C++ standard library
20:40 < no_mind> how do one send email from GO program ? I cant find any
library
20:41 < skelterjohn> no_mind: look up email protocols and write to a stream
20:41 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: hm, okay, I did not know that.  is it as
efficient as your advertisement?
20:41 < skelterjohn> i don't see a mail library on cat-v though
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20:43 < skelterjohn> Dynetrekk: looks like.  scanning the complex header,
there are exactly two member variables and no virtual functions
20:43 < skelterjohn> so it seems memory-efficient
20:43 < Dynetrekk> I'll remember that if it comes up.  still, you need to
rely on a certain "interface" of the complex class
20:43 < skelterjohn> the functions are all flagged as "inline", though iant
tells me that that isn't a guarantee that a function will actually be inlined
20:43 < Dynetrekk> so you might end up doing conversions if you want to mix
two libraries
20:44 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I know that.  the compiler decides for
itself
20:44 < skelterjohn> darn compilers, thinking they're smarter than me
20:45 < Dynetrekk> right.
20:45 < skelterjohn> so, yeah if you have a matrix<complex<double>
> in C++
20:45 < Dynetrekk> anyway, C99 has complex numbers, so it must be a good
idea on some level
20:45 < skelterjohn> that would do what you want
20:45 < skelterjohn> not familiar with C99
20:45 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: sure.  but again, this does not help the
fact that multiple implementations that are not compatible exist
20:46 < skelterjohn> since complex is part of the standard library, using a
custom complex class is not worth while
20:46 < skelterjohn> you may as well consider it a primitive type
20:47 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: what about sin / cos et al?  those should be
defined for complex numbers, too.
20:47 < skelterjohn> don't see the relevance
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20:48 < Dynetrekk> does go support overloading?
20:48 < skelterjohn> no
20:48 < skelterjohn> to my dismay, frankly
20:48 < Dynetrekk> so I'll end up with sin and csin, annoying
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20:52 < skelterjohn> i'm of the opinion that the enforced type-explicitness
would make the problems with function overloading go away
20:53 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: you mean, like in C(++)?
20:53 < skelterjohn> i can see that, using java for instance, foo(float a),
foo(double a), and calling foo on an int might be confusing
20:53 < skelterjohn> but in go there is no implicit type conversion
20:54 < skelterjohn> so calling foo on an int would just not compile
20:54 < Dynetrekk> that sounds safe and sound
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21:27 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: I posted an e-mail to the list, I guess we
will see what happens :)
21:27 < skelterjohn> i'm going to reply within a few minutes
21:27 < skelterjohn> halfway done writing
21:27 < Dynetrekk> skelterjohn: thanks for the support, I guess :P
21:27 < skelterjohn> just adding my 2c :)
21:28 < Dynetrekk> ok, I'm off, good night!
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23:08 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8BXsA by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/time/ --
time.Ticker: fix bug arising when all tickers are dead.
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23:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8C3CE by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- 8g:
respect ullman numbers in float comparison
23:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8C3CQ by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/go/printer/ -- gofmt: make sure certain 2-line comments are stable
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23:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8C6Mf by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/bytes/ -- apply gofmt to src and misc
23:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8C6MC by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ --
language spec: make NUL byte rule an implementation restriction
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 18 00:00:09 2010