--- Log opened Thu Feb 18 00:00:09 2010
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00:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8CfFi by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- release 2010-02-17 part one
00:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8CfFC by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ --
release.2010-02-17 part two
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01:02 < meatmanek> if I'm writing a function that will be returning results
via a channel, is it better to have the caller pass a channel in, or to have the
function make and return a channel?
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01:18 < smw> meatmanek: In the docs, I think it shows the caller passing a
channel.
01:18 < meatmanek> thanks
01:19 < smw> then again, I am not sure you can have it pass back a
channel...
01:20 < meatmanek> it'd be possible but it would have to spawn goroutines
for any real work to get done
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01:29 < meatmanek> anybody happen to know: with UTF8, are null bytes '\0'
ever present inside of multibyte characters?
01:30 < smw> nope
01:30 < smw> no null bytes (unless it is null)
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01:41 < uriel> not probably relevant, but remember that you can send
channels in channels ;)
01:45 < KirkMcDonald> meatmanek: The code units which comprise multi-byte
code sequences always begin with a 1 bit.
01:45 < KirkMcDonald> meatmanek: And hence cannot be 0.
01:45 < meatmanek> that's what I figured
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04:21 < meatmanek> why would new return a null pointer?
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04:39 < meatmanek> ohhh
04:39 < meatmanek> never mind.
04:40 < meatmanek> it was the other pointer on the same line giving me the
segfault
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05:58 < meatmanek> is there a way to have printf format like %#v but without
the double quotes around the string?
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06:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8Dc8x by [Ken Thompson] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/ -- new types complex, complex64 and complex128
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06:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8Dheu by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- 5g/8g: fix build
06:51 < anticw> iant: do those complex type make your life difficult for
gccgo?
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07:34 < rsaarelm> Builtin complex numbers?  Whoa.
07:37 < rsaarelm> Though that's kinda rubbing your face in the fact that
wanting to do weird algebra stuff like modular arithmetic, quaternions etc.  makes
you a second-class citizen who can't be allowed to touch the precious operators.
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07:40 < rsaarelm> Actually it's a bit tricky whether you'd expect complex
numbers to be primitive types or something you get out of a library.  From a pl
standpoint, they're compositional things instead of something that's implemented
directly on the hardware like ints or floats, so you'd expect them to be in a
library.
07:40 < rsaarelm> From a math standpoint, they're a part of the numerical
tower, reachable by standard math operations from the real numbers, so you'd
expect them built-in in the number system.
07:41 < KirkMcDonald> I know of at least two languages which have complex
numbers built-in.
07:41 < rsaarelm> Scheme and D at least.
07:41 < KirkMcDonald> Also Python.
07:43 < Gracenotes> Haskell
07:44 < rsaarelm> Does Haskell do them built-in or with a library?
07:44 < Gracenotes> built-in
07:44 < KirkMcDonald> Does it have imaginary literals, is a good indicator.
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07:45 < Gracenotes> what qualifies as a literal?  you can do "4" meaning 4 +
0i, 3 :+ 4 meaning 3 + 4i.
07:46 < KirkMcDonald> Something which can be lexically idenfied as an
imaginary number.
07:46 < Gracenotes> they implement the math operations all other floating
types do
07:46 < KirkMcDonald> identified*
07:47 < Gracenotes> uh, sure; like most of Haskell, you can implement it
yourself with the basic language syntax.
07:48 < KirkMcDonald> But there is no syntax like e.g.  4i meaning an
imaginary number.
07:48 < rsaarelm> From the Haskell report: "Other numeric types such as
rationals and complex numbers are defined in libraries."
07:48 < KirkMcDonald> I cannot tokenize Haskell source and have a token
which I unambigiously know is an imaginary literal.
07:48 < Gracenotes> good math syntax does not necessarily make for good PL
syntax
07:48 < Gracenotes> in this case, it doesn't
07:49 < Gracenotes> KirkMcDonald: if you see a :+ data constructor with that
in scope, you can know.  Otherwise, all Haskell number types have a neat feature
where you can instantiate them from a literal.
07:49 < Gracenotes> a regular number literal, like 4 or 6.3, which gives it
to you as an arbitrary-length integer and rational number respectively
07:51 < KirkMcDonald> So you don't know until you are parsing the language.
07:52 < Gracenotes> I'd expect to see ad-hoc imaginary number syntax in a
programming language specifically meant for math/physics calculation, or in one
where so many features are thrown in the bag, might as well add this one
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07:53 < Gracenotes> you cannot know, because e.g.  you can define a method
that works whether you feed it a Double or a Complex Double, depending on the
number type.  it's rather generic.
07:55 < KirkMcDonald> My point is merely that I would not say Haskell has
imaginary literals.
07:56 < Gracenotes> seems about right
07:56 < rsaarelm> From what I know of it, Haskell's type system is pretty
good for algebra stuff.  You can define things to belong to algebraic families
that support certain operators, then write functions that operate on anything that
belongs to that family.  Basically a lot like Go interfaces.  I guess it can also
slow things down in serious number crunching code, a lot like Go interfaces...
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07:57 < rsaarelm> Point being anyway, that Go won't let you mix
interface-style stuff with arithmetic operators.
07:57 < KirkMcDonald> So whether Haskell has "built-in" imaginary numbers is
somewhat ambiguous, as it depends on whether you'd describe the standard library
as "built-in."
07:57 < rsaarelm> Wouldn't call something built-in in this context if you
have to import a library to get it to work.
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> But it sounds like integers themselves possess the
needed mechanism to get an imaginary number from them
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> .
07:58 < Gracenotes> as I said, many things in Haskell can be reinvented
without the need for primitives unreachable in the language.  I consider that a
positive.
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> Gracenotes: This was also one of the goals of C++.
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08:01 < Gracenotes> KirkMcDonald: in what sense did it achieve that?
08:01 < KirkMcDonald> I didn't say that it did.  :-)
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08:01 < KirkMcDonald> But, between templates and operator overloading, a
user-defined type can behave quite a lot like any given primitive type.
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08:04 < Gracenotes> hm, true.  Haskell takes operator overloading to its
logical well-typed conclusion :P
08:05 < Gracenotes> at least one
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08:07 < Gracenotes> Go takes interface implementation to its, as well
08:07 < KirkMcDonald> Go's interfaces are somewhat compelling.
08:07 < KirkMcDonald> They definitely have a thing going with them.
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08:14 < vegai> I hope they'll be more successful at defining good standard
interfaces
08:14 < vegai> ...than the Haskell people
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08:20 < Gracenotes> well, maybe you do want numerical types organized with
abstract algebraic structures :)
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08:23 < Gracenotes> some Haskellers would like that
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15:48 < TaMonKein> Hey, what kind of software i could write with Go? Web
apps?  2/3D games?  Normal Apps?
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15:51 < gzmask> System utilities and server side services
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15:54 < TaMonKein> Can i do graphical systems?
15:54 < gzmask> check github.com there is an openGL binding for Go I believe
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15:59 < TaMonKein> how about exp.draw and exp.draw.x11?
15:59 < skelterjohn> there is opengl stuff on go-lang.cat-v.org
15:59 < skelterjohn> but i was unable to get it working...
15:59 < skelterjohn> so it's at least non-trivial to get installed
16:01 < TaMonKein> Yeah, but i could also use the exp.draw and ex.draw.x11
packages?
16:04 < skelterjohn> probably
16:04 < skelterjohn> i assume that they're relevant
16:04 < skelterjohn> i've never used them
16:04 < skelterjohn> having "draw" and "x11" in the package name is a good
sign :)
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16:27 < rsaarelm> As far as I've tested it, Go seems quite nice for 2D games
from a programming standpoint, though I did make my own SDL glue for it.
16:28 < rsaarelm> A practical problem with game projects is of course that
there still isn't a Windows port, and games lose something like 90 % of the
audience without a Windows version.
16:28 < gzmask> yea...  I don't see Go becoming a popular language for games
soon...
16:29 < gzmask> maybe web games but not desktop games
16:30 < rsaarelm> C++ has a massive middleware ecosystem for professional
desktop game dev, so it's sitting very tight.  But once we get the Windows port
and some nicer bindings, it should be pretty good for small-scale games.
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16:32 < gzmask> but but but when on windows ppl can use C# and XNA
16:32 < rsaarelm> Web games would be using NaCl, if you'd want Go on the
front end too.  Of course Go can always do the webserver backend.
16:32 < rsaarelm> With C#+XNA, you can't port to Mac and Linux.
16:32 < gzmask> in NaCL I'd hope Go will use O3D instead of calling OpenGL
directly
16:33 < gzmask> but you can port to Xbox360
16:33 < rsaarelm> There's that.
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16:35 < gzmask> and to make NaCL same, I don't see how gooogle will allow it
to call system services.  probably just DOM and stuff like O3D would be enough
16:35 < rsaarelm> You might be able to rig Go to compile native code to
Xbox360 if you'd do a lot of porting work, but I believe the Xbox dev kit that's
affordable for hobbyists only allows C#/XNA games, no Go there.
16:35 < gzmask> to make NaCL safe*
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16:36 < dho> The developer kit is free.
16:36 < dho> The XNA license is $99/year
16:36 < gzmask> $99 only when you want your game in their market place
16:36 < dho> Right.
16:36 < rsaarelm> But the free kit only allows you to make C# apps, not C++
apps?
16:36 < dho> AFAIK it's a full kit.
16:36 < gzmask> you can distribute your game yourself if it's windows only
16:37 < dho> because of that fact that gzmask just stated
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16:39 < gzmask> I kinda feel that Go is good for neuron network simulation
algorithms with Goroutine
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17:03 < anticw> gzmask: it depends, channels are cheap but not free ...  if
the amount of work done on something you get from a channel before stuffing it
into another one is small then it won't scale well
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17:10 < gzmask> you are saying that if I use Goroutine to simulate a node
and using channel to connect the nodes then it's too costy?  are you suggesting
there are cheaper ways to connect nodes in other languages, anticw?
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17:22 < gzmask> anticw, if you done some ANN works in Go then I am thinking
this may work faster by simulating 4 nodes a time on quad-duo cpus:
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#parallel
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19:00 < Xurix> Hi everyone!
19:01 < smw> hi Xurix!
19:02 < Xurix> How's everyone today?
19:02 < smw> meh.  ok I guess.  :-P
19:04 < Xurix> Whatcha doing?
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19:24 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8FDGC by [Russ Cox] in 4 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
recursive interface embedding
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19:48 < blAckEn3d> hello, can I define a method on a function?
19:48 < dho> method on a function?
19:48 < blAckEn3d> wait, I'll paste a snippet
19:48 <+iant> you can define a method on a named function type
19:49 < blAckEn3d> @iant that's what I mean
19:49 < blAckEn3d> how can I do that?
19:50 <+iant> blAckEn3d: there is an example at
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#interface_methods
19:50 < blAckEn3d> @iant thanks
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20:27 < Surma> hey guys.  I got some problems with containers (IntVector to
be specific).  I'm launchinb about 1000 goroutines using a vector.IntVector.
However, their capacity defaults to 16 - which is too large, I only need 10.  As I
plan to go bigger, 6 byte matter.  How can I create a smaller Vector?  I tried
creating a int-slice by hand, but casting it to IntVector or something just wont
work.  any hints?
20:27 < Surma> (oh, and if possible, I'd like to pass values for the 10
fields of the vector at initialization
20:28 < smw> Surma: casting?
20:28 < Surma> smw: Sorry, I meant - just passing - old habit ;)
20:28 < smw> Surma: IntVector(anIntSlice)
20:29 < smw> np, are you casting it like a interface slice.(Intvector) or
IntVector(anIntSlice)
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20:30 < Surma> I tried like this
20:30 < Eridius> you should be able to do something like make(IntVector, 10,
10)
20:30 < Eridius> besides, it looks like Vector's initial capacity is now 8,
though it'll expand to 16 once you go past that
20:30 < Surma> h := vector.IntVector(([10]int{1,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0})[0:])
20:31 < Surma> seems messy tho ^^
20:31 < smw> lol
20:31 < Eridius> []int{1,1,1,1,1} should work to make a vector, no?
20:31 < smw> do make(vector.IntVector, 10, 10)
20:31 < Eridius> alternately, &[...]int{1,1,1,1,1}
20:32 < Surma> Eridius: Than I can't call Push() on that
20:32 < Eridius> Surma: casting it isn't working?
20:33 < Surma> Eridius: Just tried, than it does work
20:33 < Surma> thanks
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20:33 < Surma> now, would you mind explaining, why it has to be like this?
20:33 < Eridius> like what specifically?
20:33 < Surma> with [...]int{1,1,...,1} I create an array
20:33 < Eridius> yeah
20:33 < Surma> with & I get the address of array, yes?
20:33 < Eridius> taking the address of an array gives you a slice
20:34 < Surma> but I thought, IntVector is an int-slice
20:34 < Surma> Eridius: ah!  thats new to me
20:34 < Surma> I read, slices are some kind of struct (in the backend) so
didn't think you could just do it like that
20:34 < Eridius> that said, []int{1,1,1,1} should work
20:34 < Eridius> []int{1,1,1,1} should be effectively equivalent to
&[...]int{1,1,1,1}
20:35 < Surma> Eridius: Yup, works too
20:35 < Surma> thanks you guys
20:36 < Eridius> and yes, a slice is internally a struct of some sort, but I
believe Go just transparently converts an address-of-array into a slice
20:36 < Surma> I'll just remember that.
20:36 * Eridius is trying to find this documented in the language spec but is
having difficulty finding it :/
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20:37 < Surma> Eridius: I guess it isn't there, otherwise - I guess - I
would have found it.  That much I can expect from myself ;)
20:37 < Eridius> heh
20:37 * Eridius is wondering how he knew it then
20:38 < Eridius> hrm, http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html#tmp_92 shows it
in practice, but doesn't define it
20:38 < Eridius> well, in the following paragraph it explains that it works,
it's just not formally specified
20:40 < skelterjohn> #tmp_92 left me at the top of the page
20:40 < Eridius> oh, it was supposed to be the section about types
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20:40 < Eridius>
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Making_slices_maps_and_channels also shows one
usage of &a (where a is an array), but again doesn't formally specify it
20:41 < Surma> ANother question just popped up: So right now I spawn
(literally) a million goroutines, each having 2 slices with a capacity of 10
integers, and a channel of ints.  That would make 16Megs + 1million*sizeof(chan
int) (so to speak).  However, the process takes up >2GB of RAM.  Is that
normal?
20:41 < Surma> Eridius: you are right, I could have figured it out from the
examples
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20:45 < Eridius> how'd you get 16MB?
20:45 < Eridius> I also wonder how much memory overhead each goroutine
itself has
20:45 < Surma> 20*8byte*1million
20:45 < Surma> Eridius: That's what my next question would have been
20:45 < Eridius> what's the 20*8byte?
20:46 < Eridius> figuring conservatively, I'm guessing each slice is 48
bytes (4 for length, 4 for the pointer to the array, and 40 for the array itself)
20:46 < Surma> 8byte per integer (on a 64bit), 2 slices รก 10 items
20:46 < Eridius> oh, 64bit
20:46 < Surma> oh right, it's a struct
20:46 < Eridius> ok, that makes my guess 96bytes per slice
20:46 < Surma> yup
20:46 < Surma> okay, still ~100MB per goroutine
20:46 < Surma> 1.9GB to go ;)
20:47 < Surma> but I just realize, at 1million routines, each byte adds a
Meg to the overall memory consumption
20:47 < Eridius> if a goroutine uses a mere 2k bytes, that would account for
it
20:47 < Surma> 2k per routine is okay i guess
20:47 < Surma> yeah
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20:48 < Surma> well, the million routines were just me playing around ^^
20:48 < Eridius> heh
20:48 < Eridius> I suspect with that many goroutines, the overhead in
managing them is more than the gains in parallelism
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20:48 < Eridius> especially since you don't have a million cores
20:48 < Surma> indeed
20:49 < Surma> would be nice though...
20:49 < Surma> a million cores...
20:49 < Eridius> haha
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20:57 < skelterjohn> http://www.xmos.com/
20:57 < skelterjohn> that's where to start if you want 1e6 cores
21:00 < leonod> sparkfun is another good site
21:04 < leonod> So the other day I got a tip about using the html 5 canvas
for displaying charts from go.  Is this the way to go?  Should the template
package be used to modify the canvas when the data is modified?
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21:20 < leonod> Anyone?
21:21 < skelterjohn> i certainly have no idea
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21:23 < leonod> No me neither.  I usually do embedded code and displaying
stuff that common in that area :)
21:24 < leonod> Strange sentence.
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21:35 < eliteSchaf> hey guys
21:36 < eliteSchaf> how do i link a local file into my program?  -I.  seems
not to work anymore
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21:39 < leonod> anymore?
21:40 < eliteSchaf> yes, it has worked with the 27-1-10 release
21:40 < eliteSchaf> so what is the right way to import a local file?
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21:41 < leonod> I guess that you have checked: "To build more complicated
programs, you will probably want to use a Makefile.  There are examples in places
like $GOROOT/src/cmd/godoc/Makefile and $GOROOT/src/pkg/*/Makefile"
21:43 < eliteSchaf> yes i do, but a single command for my little test
programs would be enough
21:44 < skelterjohn> check out go-lang.cat-v.org - there are a few attempts
at auto-builders there
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21:44 < leonod> I'm as lost as you are but will have a look
21:44 < eliteSchaf> leonod, thanks :)
21:46 < eliteSchaf> leonod, wait, they've changed the behaviour to the old
one
21:46 < eliteSchaf> just import it as "./package-name"
21:46 < eliteSchaf> then it works ^^
21:47 < leonod> Ah so you meant in your go source how to include a local
package?
21:48 < eliteSchaf> leonod, yes thats what i meant ^^
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22:13 < smw> How do you test if a key exists in a map?
22:13 < Eridius> _, ok := map[key]
22:14 < smw> ok
22:16 < smw> Eridius: thanks, it works.
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22:59 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8Gp3e by [Ken Thompson] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/ -- more complex - constants
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23:45 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8GxR8 by [Dean Prichard] in go/src/pkg/sync/
-- sync: allow to work on armv5
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 19 00:00:10 2010