--- Log opened Tue Mar 02 00:00:18 2010
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00:14 < fenicks> how to trap a signal in GO, like SIGINT ?
00:15 < Sapient> out of curiosity, how do the design goals of Go language
differ from those of D language ? Is there some significant overlap ?
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00:17 <+iant> fenicks: see the os/signal package
00:17 < Nikopol> Sapient: was wondering myself
00:19 <+iant> Sapient: I don't know enough about D to say how the goals
differ, but it seems clear that the implementation approach differs
00:19 <+iant> D seems to include all the features of C++
00:19 <+iant> or at least nearly all
00:19 <+iant> Go takes a completely different route
00:19 < Sapient> less is more?
00:21 < Sapient> it's a tough question to answer in a few words probably I
should just try them both out and learn for myself
00:21 < Sapient> but you know, programmers and laziness
00:22 < Nikopol> how is that "completely" different?
00:23 < Nikopol> I know it's written from scratch
00:23 < Nikopol> :)
00:23 < Nikopol> however I see (practically) many similarities
00:24 <+iant> Go started with nothing and added language features that
seemed necessary for writing code
00:24 <+iant> As I say, I know much less about D, but it seems to start with
C++ and change it to be better
00:24 <+iant> I would describe those approaches as completely different
00:24 <+iant> clearly both languages are in the C (or Algol) family and thus
have similarities
00:24 < Nikopol> the modularity is pretty similar
00:25 < KirkMcDonald> Much of what D does is drop features from C++.
00:25 < Nikopol> compile times
00:25 < KirkMcDonald> No multiple inheritance, no preprocessor, no header
files.
00:25 < Nikopol> KirkMcDonald: (agreed)
00:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/9ujFW by [Andrey Mirtchovski] in 3 subdirs of
go/ -- strings.Bytes -> []byte for documentation example, src/pkg/* comments,
and htmlgen.go
00:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/9ujG7 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ --
Minor mistake in docs.
00:27 < KirkMcDonald> Originally it did not have templates, too.  They were
only added once a reasonable design and syntax for them was devised.
00:27 < Nikopol> I was quite surprised to see that, there are no mention of
D in the Go FAQ/docs
00:27 < Nikopol> really surprised
00:27 <+iant> The designers of Go did not look at D during the design
process
00:27 <+iant> and none of the Go team are really familiar with D
00:27 <+iant> So what should a FAQ entry say?
00:28 < KirkMcDonald> Just that.
00:28 < Nikopol> there is a language comparison with C
00:28 <+iant> ha, OK
00:28 <+iant> Nikopol: only about declaration syntax, because that is really
is a FAQ
00:28 < KirkMcDonald> I still think Go should have made the dereference
operator a postfix operator.
00:29 < Nikopol> but it's hard to explain how this question has not been
raised by any of Go users/designers
00:29 <+iant> yeah, maybe
00:29 < Nikopol> but, nevermind...
00:29 <+iant> Nikopol: it's come up on the mailing list a couple of times
00:29 <+iant> D is just a different language
00:29 <+iant> I'm not sure what interesting things there are to say about Go
and D
00:30 < KirkMcDonald> There is one interesting point of similarity between
the two languages.
00:30 < Nikopol> lots.  But I'm not an expert
00:30 < KirkMcDonald> Which are Go's slices and D's dynamic arrays.
00:30 <+iant> how do dynamic arrays work?
00:30 < KirkMcDonald> They are implemented as { length, pointer } structs.
(So-called "fat pointers.")
00:31 <+iant> so fairly similar then
00:31 < KirkMcDonald> The one difference is that you can (for instance) do:
array.length = 20;
00:31 < KirkMcDonald> And this will allocate a new array and copy.
00:32 <+iant> where as in Go you can reslice, but only up to the capacity
00:32 < KirkMcDonald> And you can concatenate two dynamic arrays and get a
new one, etc.
00:32 <+iant> we've talked that one back and forth and up and down
00:32 < KirkMcDonald> But, they both support the slice operation.
00:32 < KirkMcDonald> And the slice is simply a new dynamic array.
00:32 < KirkMcDonald> And so on.
00:33 < KirkMcDonald> So as in Go, this permits lots of byte-fiddling
operations to be done with ease, and without having to mess with pointers
directly.
00:33 <+iant> does D have pointer arithmetic?
00:33 < KirkMcDonald> (Conversely, D has C-style pointers, including pointer
arithmetic.
00:33 < KirkMcDonald> )
00:34 < Sapient> ok, well thanks for humoring my question with some
interesting discussion.  the differences and similarities are a bit clearer now
00:34 <+iant> anyhow, we would probably consider a contribution to the
language FAQ about D
00:34 <+iant> if somebody who knows D wants to write one
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00:34 <+iant> or we could have Go for D programmers....
00:34 < KirkMcDonald> I would have to think about it.
00:34 < nf> iant: definitely worth inclusion :)
00:34 <+iant> I think Andrew is working on Go for Java programmers
00:34 < nf> how many D programmers are there?
00:34 < KirkMcDonald> But I guess I'm as qualified as anyone to write such a
thing.
00:35 <+iant> I wrote Go for C++ programmers myself when I was first working
with Go
00:35 < KirkMcDonald> One issue with such a document is that very few D
programmers started with D. As a rule, they came from C++ or Java, or something
else.
00:36 < dagle> Go also have som simularities to the Fantom language.
00:36 < dagle> http://fantom.org/
00:36 <+iant> That language is new to me
00:37 < KirkMcDonald> I will say that, if the Go developers ever become
interested in adding compile-time templates to Go, D's templates would be worth
looking at.
00:38 <+iant> what would you say are the key differences between D templates
and C++ templates?
00:38 < KirkMcDonald> They are probably the best, or at least the most
interesting, part of that language.
00:38 < KirkMcDonald> One is that they do not complicate the parser
unnecessarily.
00:38 < KirkMcDonald> The second is that, while C++ templates are limited to
classes and functions, a D template is a namespace which may contain any
declarations.
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00:39 < KirkMcDonald> Next there is 'static if', which permits many things
which would be written using template specialization in C++ to be done much more
logically.
00:40 < KirkMcDonald> D also has variadic templates, which have some
interesting uses.
00:40 <+iant> C++0x added variadic templates
00:40 < KirkMcDonald> Yes, it did.
00:40 < KirkMcDonald> But I don't like them as much.  :-)
00:40 <+iant> static if is a nice idea
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00:41 < KirkMcDonald> The C++ template syntax is basically awful.
00:41 < Sapient> I agree, except for the basically part ;)
00:41 < KirkMcDonald> 'typename' alone is a sign that something went
dreadfully wrong with the grammar.
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00:43 < KirkMcDonald> What else...  Oh yes, the variety of types which may
be used as template parameters is greater.
00:43 < KirkMcDonald> ints, floats, strings...
00:43 < KirkMcDonald> And (perhaps most interestingly) 'alias' parameters,
which may be any symbol.
00:44 < KirkMcDonald> Such as functions.
00:44 < KirkMcDonald> (Or, technically, variables, but the compiler can
behave oddly if you try passing local variables as alias template parameters...)
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02:46 < newsham> anyone here familiar with build process for go in mingw?
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03:07 < KirkMcDonald> I was not aware that any version of Go worked in
Windows.
03:07 < KirkMcDonald> Oh, he left.
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03:15 < hstimer> anyone here use the tls package?
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03:20 < hstimer> is there a way to typecast in go?
03:21 < hstimer> nevermind....
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03:55 < hstimer> I'm seeing some odd interface casting behavior
03:56 < hstimer> T implements T1
03:56 < hstimer> foo () (T1) { return T }
03:57 < hstimer> t, good = foo().(T)
03:57 < hstimer> good == false
03:59 < anticw> (*T)
04:01 < hstimer> anticw: oh....  that worked....  why?
04:06 < anticw> hstimer: i can't find a good refernece in the spec as to why
this is necessary
04:07 < anticw> iant: can you comment perhaps?
04:11 < no_mind> can I declare a function to return a struct and os.Error
and return only os.Error on error ?
04:12 < hstimer> no
04:13 < exch> it'll be nil and os.error then
04:13 < exch> at best
04:13 < no_mind> so if error occurs, I have return an empty struct and
os.Error ?
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04:30 < anticw> yes
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09:13 < c0nfl|ct> bom dia
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09:45 < hdon> wow!  a formal mechanism for duck-typing!  in a systems
programming language!
09:45 * hdon swoons
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09:59 < hdon> where is the SWIG work for the non-GCC compilers?
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12:10 < talin> hello.  is it possible to write portable opengl programs with
go?
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12:31 < rsaarelm> talin: There aren't official OpenGL bindings.  There are
third-party ones, but I don't know how good they are.
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17:34 < cppiii> How do I run GO on windows?
17:37 <+iant> The Windows port is a work in progress
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17:40 < hstimer> What I want for my birthday: a single command that will
output all the values in the current stack frame
17:41 < hstimer> with labels
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18:08 < KirkMcDonald> hstimer: That could be a useful addition to panic().
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18:08 < hstimer> KirkMcDonald: and a generally useful debugging tool
18:09 < KirkMcDonald> Though at some point, you might as well just have a
debugger.
18:10 < hstimer> yes, but.  go builds are so fricking fast that I'm not sure
that a debugger is all that necessary....  just good code instrumentation tools
18:14 < leonod> A debugger is always good to have
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18:21 < hdon> where is the SWIG work for the non-GCC compilers?
18:21 <+iant> hdon: I'm working on SWIG but it's not done
18:21 <+iant> hdon: see misc/cgo for a different approach that works for C
18:22 <+iant> When SWIG is ready it will work for C++
18:22 <+iant> At least that is the goal
18:22 < anticw> is there a way to use select to see the read/writability of
a channel w/o actually doing the read/write?
18:22 <+iant> No
18:22 <+iant> Such tests are highly vulnerable to race conditions
18:23 < anticw> yes, i'm aware of that and assume that was why
18:23 < anticw> fwiw, i wanted a clean priority-queue that was more or less
a channel in and a channel out
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18:24 < anticw> the output would have n slow consumers, so the reordering w/
a heap is possible, but getting it all working cleanly last night eluded me
18:24 < anticw> at this point i'm looking at runtime.Semaphore despite
claims i shouldn't use it
18:25 < hdon> iant, ah, i wasn't actually interested in it for any practical
goal, i'm just a swig fan and wanted to take a look :)
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18:26 < JBeshir> Hmm.  Why not make the communication two way?  Have the
consumers write to a channel to indicate that they're reading?
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18:26 < no_mind> anyone writing a wrapper for openssl ?
18:26 < JBeshir> Vulnerable to races, except that if I get your design close
enough, your design wouldn't allow it.
18:26 <+iant> Now that I'm trying to figure out how to port SWIG I'm not
sure I could describe myself as a SWIG fan....
18:26 <+iant> at least I am not a SWIG internals documentation fan
18:26 < JBeshir> Since it guarantees that if they send that message they're
going to be reading right afterwards.
18:27 < JBeshir> Make a "request" queue?
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18:29 < hdon> iant, heheh, i feel the same way with respect to that aspect
of SWIG.  i am in fact writing a SWIG module now with a secondary goal of
providing a highly documented demonstration of Language inheritance in SWIG --
right now i literally have about six lines of comments to every line of code.  it
was just far too difficult for me to get off the ground without just *copying*
someone else's module and tweaking it until it matched my needs, whi
18:29 < hdon> ch wasn't what i wanted.
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20:50 < anticw> iant: SWIG for 6g or gccgo?
20:50 <+iant> anticw: both
20:50 <+iant> I'm giving SWIG a -gccgo option when used with -go
20:51 < nocturnal> why are the install scripts written in bash when they
work perfectly fine after i replaced all calls to bash with sh?
20:51 <+iant> because bash is more portable than sh and it seems easier to
require bash than to worry about future sh portability issues
20:51 <+iant> well, very simple uses of sh are portable
20:51 <+iant> but we don't have a way to audit the scripts for sh
portability
20:52 < nocturnal> i still don't get it, most things are written in bourne
shell because every one has bourne shell
20:52 < nocturnal> it is defined in posix as sh
20:52 <+iant> sure, but in practice most shells extend sh, and they extend
it in different ways
20:52 < nocturnal> and the scripts obviously work in bourne
20:53 < nocturnal> so you might break compatibility with sh some time in the
future?
20:53 <+iant> they may today, although I wonder what shell you are using to
test that
20:53 < nocturnal> and just use bash?
20:53 <+iant> but, right, will they work with sh in the future?
20:53 < nocturnal> yeah
20:53 < nocturnal> will they?
20:53 < nocturnal> who could tell really
20:53 <+iant> I don't know but I guarantee they will work with bash
20:54 < nocturnal> so you're willing to break compatibility with POSIX then
20:54 < nocturnal> or just extend it
20:54 <+iant> I would say, rather, that we're willing to test with bash
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20:55 <+iant> we don't plan to break POSIX compatibility but since we have
no good way to test for it we don't want to spend our time on it
20:55 <+iant> what system do you use?
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20:55 < nocturnal> how can you not have a good way to test bourne shell?  os
x has it
20:55 < nocturnal> and you support os x officially
20:55 <+iant> OS X has a strict bourne shell?  that is news to me
20:55 <+iant> strict POSIX Bourne shells are rare
20:56 < nocturnal> hmm maybe i'm wrong
20:56 < nocturnal> sorry
20:56 < nocturnal> i just saw the manual for sh in os x
20:56 <+iant> I mean, bash is a Bourne shell, too
20:56 < nocturnal> it is the bash manual
20:56 <+iant> it's just not a strict one
20:56 < d_m> nocturnal: i thought OS X just links /bin/sh -> /bin/bash
(which turns on bash's sh compatibility mode)
20:56 < hdon> my /bin/sh is a link to /bin/dash
20:56 < nocturnal> a hard link in that case
20:56 <+iant> yeah, I just looked on an OS X system and /bin/sh was a
symlink to /bin/bash
20:57 < nocturnal> mine isn't a symlink but the manual is the same as bash
20:57 < nocturnal> so i must assume it is bash somehow
20:57 < nocturnal> like csh is tcsh in bsd
20:58 < nocturnal> on os x 10.6 Binary files /bin/sh and /bin/bash differ
20:59 < nocturnal> anyways, thanks for the info.  i got to sleep
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21:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/9yvZw by [Robert Griesemer] in 31 subdirs of
go/src/ -- gofmt: experiment: align values in map composites where possible
21:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/9yvZH by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/pkg/http/
-- http: corrected comment for Response.GetHeader.
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22:07 < plexdev> http://is.gd/9yzAl by [Andrew Gerrand] in
go/lib/codereview/ -- codereview.py: fix for compatibility with hg >=1.4.3
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 03 00:00:19 2010