--- Log opened Sat Mar 20 00:00:29 2010
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00:05 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aPqzl by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/ -- godoc: proper file path conversion for remote search
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00:09 < napsy> Hello.  I tried to declare a Node structure but 6g gives me
"tree.go:6: invalid recursive type Node".  Is there a way around this?
00:09 <+iant> don't make the type recursive?
00:09 < napsy> how do I then define left and right nodes?
00:11 <+iant> type Node struct { left *Node; right *Node }
00:11 < napsy> so Node has to be a pointer
00:11 <+iant> it doesn't make sense for a type to include itself
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00:11 <+iant> that would never stop
00:12 < napsy> hm you're right
00:13 < anticw> iant: you can put a klein bottle inside a klein bottle
00:14 <+iant> aren't we all inside a klein bottle anyhow?
00:15 < anticw> i guess at some level we're inside all of them
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00:26 < napsy> where can I paste my source?
00:27 < napsy> gopaste isn't available anymore
00:27 < napsy> http://pastebin.com/8YbdPwH1
00:27 < napsy> why doesn't this work
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00:38 < Bombe> napsy, because Create does not return a *Node.
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00:42 < napsy> http://pastebin.com/rTfDDgMz
00:42 < napsy> so far I've come to this solution
00:43 < napsy> but I think it isn't go-ish enough
00:44 < skelterjohn> Node{"a",Node{"b",null,null},Node{"c", null,
Node{"d",null,null}}}
00:46 < napsy> my structure requires pointers
00:47 < skelterjohn> stick some ampersands
00:48 < napsy> ok it works now
00:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aPtsI by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- website: add Go Blog widget to frontpage,
00:51 < skelterjohn> sweet
00:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aPtsP by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ --
godoc: revert change 5089, per gri's instructions
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02:41 < comedaybreak> hi guys
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02:46 < comedaybreak> ...  i've got a go question.  does anyone know how to
use strings.Join with a list.List (or some other dynamically-sized collection)?
02:47 < anticw> comedaybreak: you can get access to the underlying slice
02:50 < comedaybreak> how would i do that?  the implementation of List isn't
based on an array and i thought slices only work on arrays...
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02:53 < anticw> comedaybreak: you're right, it's a doubly linked-list, so no
it won't work
02:53 < anticw> but how large is this ...  i mean, if you're going to use it
for join you could make a copy
02:54 < anticw> mythang := make([]string, myList.Len())
02:54 < anticw> for e := range myList.Iter() { myList[i] = e.(myType) ; i""
}
02:54 < anticw> or whatever
02:55 < comedaybreak> hmm yeah that's what i was afraid of
02:55 < anticw> afraid?
02:55 < anticw> how large is it?
02:56 < anticw> heh, i typoed something terrible above sorry
02:57 < comedaybreak> it's just awkward.  i'll implement my own ListJoin
function that dynamically casts list elements to string, copies them into an
array, then passes it to Join?
02:58 < comedaybreak> all i want is a dynamically sized array.  like map[]
but ordered :(
02:58 < anticw> container/vector
02:59 < anticw> there is even string vector ...  which you can get at the
underlying slice of
02:59 < anticw> and use for join
03:00 < comedaybreak> g-g-g-got it
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03:12 < comedaybreak> sweet that totally worked.  thanks anticw
03:14 < anticw> btw i tried using a list and making a temp slice, it's
fairly fast
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03:18 < comedaybreak> ok one more.  how can i check whether a map contains a
certain key?
03:20 < comedaybreak> just with an exception?
03:20 < anticw> if value, ok := someThing[key] ; ok { // we have value }
03:23 < comedaybreak> sweet, so i can use ; like the C comma operator.
thanks again
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03:23 < anticw> no, it's not really the same
03:25 < comedaybreak> oh got it.  it's more like init ; cond in a for
construct
03:26 < anticw> yes
03:26 < anticw> so value, boolean := map[key]
03:26 < anticw> is a lookup that won't panic if it doesn't match
03:26 < anticw> so you can do things like _, gotIt = someMap[k]
03:27 < anticw> or if non-existance is equiv to the null-value for the type
you can also do:
03:27 < anticw> value, _ := someMap[k]
03:27 < anticw> // use value
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03:27 < comedaybreak> i see
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03:31 < anticw> comedaybreak: so, fwiw, using list.Iter() ...  to make slice
i can do 660,000 strings/s ...  using .Front for { .Next } about 1M/s
03:31 < anticw> this is on an old slow CPU
03:32 < comedaybreak> hahaha actually runtime performance isn't important to
me yet.  i just want to write concise code and work with the language rather than
work around it
03:34 < anticw> well, it's still fairly concise
03:34 < anticw> the loops is only three lines incl.  the closing brace
03:37 < comedaybreak> i dunno.  if i need to write a loop just to call Join,
why bother calling Join?
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04:25 < anticw> comedaybreak: for join you probably wouldn't, but for
something complex it might make sense
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04:42 < anticw> iant: awake?
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05:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/aPL5C by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/ -- godoc: line numbers for all remote search results
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07:48 < akrill> i love go and hate go at the same time.  who else here feels
the same way?
07:49 < exch> I mostly just love it
07:49 < anticw> im not feeling much hate
07:50 < exch> the occasional feeling of 'mm I wish it could do X or Y', but
that's about it
07:50 < akrill> hmm.  must be because i just started playing with it 2 days
ago
07:50 < akrill> :-p
07:50 < anticw> a lot of people feel frustration when it's not what they
want it to be, or missing some idiom/feature found elsewhere
07:50 < anticw> but that's true of many things
07:51 < akrill> indeed.
07:51 < no_mind> I love go because it just knows what I want :)
07:52 < akrill> knows?  or does?  (meaning that some languages have hidden
"features" that do things you dont necessarily want it to)
07:52 < exch> I didn't know clairvoyance was part of it's compiler design :p
07:52 < anticw> it takes a command line argument to enable that
07:52 < exch> nice :p
07:53 * exch makes a note to investigate if it can predict lottery numbers
07:53 < akrill> using your google search history and heuristic analysis of
any code repos found on your system
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07:53 < anticw> one of go's worst 'features' is it's apparent association
with google
07:54 < anticw> it's a distraction at best
07:54 < akrill> google?  whats that?  ;-)
07:55 < anticw> http://www.bing.com/search?q=google
07:55 < akrill> nice.
07:55 < akrill> so, according to the docs, netchan doesnt support
bidirectional communication at the moment?
07:55 < anticw> probably not
07:56 < anticw> netchannels are also fairly prototypish iirc
07:56 * akrill nods
07:56 < akrill> thats what i gathered
07:56 < akrill> pretty neat though
07:58 * akrill wonders if you can have multiple importers connected to a single
exporter on a remote machine, and if that remote machine can pick and choose which
connected importer to send an object to, or if its a simple FIFO queue style
connection where objects go to the first requester on the line, etc etc
07:58 < anticw> isn't it basically gobs over sockets with some mux/demux?
07:59 < akrill> im honestly not sure.  i havent looked at the implementation
yet
07:59 * akrill has a feeling a channel can only be between two machines
08:00 * akrill wonders if netchan can be extended to support multiple endpoints
and emulate the behavior he specified above...
08:00 < anticw> n-cast?
08:00 < akrill> hmm?
08:00 < anticw> what behavior do you want?
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08:01 < akrill> i'd like to be able to have a server which accepts incoming
connections from other go apps, and can send arbitrary objects to and receive
arbitrary objects from any connected app.
08:02 < akrill> usecase: queue-style load balancer.  requests come in,
queue, are pulled by the servers in the pool.
08:02 < anticw> netchan potentially could do that
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08:03 * akrill ponders
08:05 < akrill> (go code is incredibly concise...  the entire netchan
package is only a few hundred lines!)
08:05 < anticw> s/go/pike/
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08:06 < akrill> pike?
08:06 < anticw> r@
08:06 * akrill is completely lost, but that could be due to the late hour
08:06 < anticw> in all fairness all of the key authors write code that from
time to time makes me smile in admiration
08:07 < akrill> hehe
08:08 < akrill> hmm...  so, does the gob pkg preserve object state?
08:09 < anticw> akrill: it takes a structure and serializes it in a pretty
terse manner
08:09 < akrill> i'll take that as a "kinda"
08:10 < akrill> (you'll have to forgive my lack of knowledge, i've been
stuck in python for 11 years :-p)
08:10 < anticw> if you have type foo struct { i int; b byte; s string } ...
and encode it, you can recover the values
08:10 < anticw> well, think python pickle then
08:10 < akrill> thats what i figured.
08:11 < akrill> though, since "objects" in go are lighter and have less
magic in them, im guessing they serialize in a cleaner fashion with less strange
behavior.
08:11 < anticw> of course python can deserialize w/ foreknowledge of the
type details ...  because it's dynamic, w/ gobs you can't do that
08:11 < anticw> recursion fails :-)
08:11 < akrill> right
08:11 < anticw> rather you loop eating cpu :)
08:11 < anticw> i did that by mistake once
08:12 < anticw> well, not so much a mistake, i wondered if it would detect
it and forgot to comment out the code
08:12 < akrill> ha, im guessing go doesnt have a recursion depth counter to
keep that from becoming a runaway process
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08:13 < akrill> instead you'd probably wind up with a stack overflow and the
app just crashing eventually
08:13 < anticw> it's actually documented as not working when i checked
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08:13 < akrill> interesting
08:13 < anticw> "Recursive types work fine, but recursive values (data with
cycles) are problematic.  This may change.
08:13 < anticw> "
08:13 < akrill> ah, hmm
08:14 < anticw> anyhow, gobs are kinda neat, super fast and very lean
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08:14 < anticw> if you don't care for that (most people won't) consider json
08:15 < akrill> json is nice and all, but its too slow for time-sensitive
environments
08:15 < akrill> i prefer bson, but -- if all endpoints are go apps, may as
well go native with gobs
08:15 < anticw> i really dont think that's nearly as true as people claim
08:15 < akrill> well, in python its slow.  even with the c extension
08:16 < anticw> define slow?
08:16 < anticw> @work we do 1000s of messages/s with python and simple-json
08:16 < akrill> takes about 3 seconds to "dump" a 1-2mb dictionary
08:16 < akrill> loading is fine and fast, its the dump that takes forever
08:17 < anticw> how many keys?
08:17 < akrill> dont remember how many the test object had.  several hundred
with short values
08:17 < akrill> bson from pymongo is faster than cPickle in most cases btw.
and cPickle has always been faster than json for me.
08:18 < akrill> bson also supports datetime objects, whereas json doesnt
(which means you have to encode the datetime in an ascii format, which takes more
time to parse, blech)
08:20 < anticw> dates are numbers since epoch
08:20 < anticw> datetime objects, strings, etc.  all tend to have
shortcomings and complexity
08:21 < akrill> bson stores it as a 64-bit integer IIRC
08:21 < akrill> but my point is you dont have to "remember" which keys are
datetimes and do a conversion from ascii to either seconds since epoch or to a
datetime object
08:22 < akrill> of course
08:22 < akrill> i guess
08:22 < akrill> you could just store it as seconds since epoch UTC in your
json
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08:22 < akrill> but you're still stuck with typeless time, which defies the
whole point of having a specific datetime type to work with
08:22 * akrill needs to get away from web development, its poisoning his brain
08:24 < anticw> akrill: 1.8s to marshal a 100,000 element map using json
08:24 < anticw> and this is a fairly old system
08:24 < akrill> i ran my bench on a 1.8ghz dual-core 32-bit system with 1
gig of memory.
08:24 < akrill> whats yours?
08:25 < anticw> that's on an athlon x2 4400 (4 yrs old?) @ 1GHz
08:25 < anticw> so quite slow
08:25 < anticw> at 2.2GHz it's just over 1s
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08:25 < akrill> hmm, im suddenly starting to doubt that i had the c module
compiled.
08:26 < anticw> that's Go
08:26 < akrill> ah.
08:26 < anticw> not python
08:26 < anticw> also, a good chunk of that is bytes.Buffer growing
08:26 < akrill> could you shove that file up somewhere i can grab?  i'd like
to run the same test on my ec2 instance real quick.  (the json file)
08:26 < anticw> if preallocated it's quite a bit faster again
08:26 < anticw> the json test?
08:27 < akrill> the dumped file.  so i know im using the same dataset.
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08:29 < anticw> oh, i'm just making up some crap in the go code
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08:29 < akrill> ah, ok
08:30 < anticw> i have some 3GHz westmere machines i can test this one
somewhere, i assume there it will be much faster
08:32 < akrill> so, it takes about 0.4 seconds to dump a 100k element map to
json now that im actually using the right damned module (my path was messed up
:-()
08:32 < akrill> but, bson takes 0.026 seconds to do the same job :-)
08:32 < akrill> cPickle takes about 0.22 seconds
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08:33 < anticw> both are pretty quick, it's hard to see how either is really
a performance problem
08:33 < akrill> bson is 15x faster, and when your bottleneck is
encoding/decoding objects, it makes a diff.
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08:34 * akrill wonders how fast the go version of bson is
08:34 * akrill goes to look...
08:35 < Project_2501> don`t look!
08:35 < Project_2501> take this mirror with you
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08:35 < akrill> lol wtf
08:35 * Project_2501 gives a shield with a mirror on it to akrill
08:36 < akrill> thank you.  now i can defend against those spinning laser
things...
08:37 < souffledev> akrill, just curious why is it exactly 15x faster?  :)
08:37 < akrill> souffledev: its not exactly 15x faster, the exact different
of course depends on the complexity of the object being encoded/decoded.  but in
my very basic benchmarks it proves to be roughly 15x faster.
08:38 < akrill> why?  i have no idea
08:38 < akrill> "it just is"
08:38 < souffledev> ok
08:38 < akrill> there are some limitations to it though
08:39 < akrill> bson documents are limited to 4MB in size, and keys must be
strings
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08:47 < anticw> akrill: what size l2 cache is on that CPU?
08:47 < akrill> 8mb on the one i just now tested on
08:47 < akrill> its pretty huge
08:48 < anticw> yeah, that probably helps
08:48 < anticw> http://stupidest.org/Go/json-gob-test1.go
08:48 < anticw> what times do you get there?
08:49 < akrill> JSON
08:49 < akrill> Took 1.162991s
08:49 < akrill> len 1877781
08:50 < akrill> GOBS
08:50 < akrill> Took 0.558211s
08:50 < akrill> len 2055959
08:50 < anticw> what clockspeed?
08:50 < akrill> 2.33Ghz
08:51 < akrill> ah, sorry, 6MB cache
08:51 < akrill> not 8MB
08:51 < anticw> that's large enough though
08:51 < akrill> indeed
08:51 < anticw> i have some X5670 machines ill test with but for some reason
i can't get to them
08:51 < anticw> so i'll just cry and give up
08:52 < comedaybreak> has anyone here thought about how to do generics in
go?
08:53 < anticw> about 57 people have posted suggestions
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08:54 < comedaybreak> where are the suggestions?
08:54 < comedaybreak> cuz frankly, i have a suggestion
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08:56 < akrill> anticw: BSON
08:56 < akrill> Took 0.888803s
08:56 < akrill> len 1988895
08:56 < akrill> so not much faster in go
08:57 < akrill> and gobs are much faster
08:57 < anticw> comedaybreak: on syntax or implementation
08:57 < comedaybreak> syntax
08:57 < anticw> i dont think anyone is worried about that
08:57 < anticw> it's the implementation that's hard
08:58 < anticw> syntax nobody agrees on, lots of people complain about for
2-3 days and then everyone gets on with their lives
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08:59 < anticw> implementation, few if anyone (outside of rsc) has suggest
how it might work
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09:00 < comedaybreak> oh well i have an idea for the implementation also
09:01 < anticw> post to the list :)
09:01 < comedaybreak> but the implementation is basically syntatctic sugar
09:03 < anticw> zzz
09:03 < anticw> night
09:03 < akrill> night
09:03 < comedaybreak> wiat!
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09:03 < comedaybreak> before you go!
09:04 < comedaybreak> anticw would you look at my generics idea before i
post it to the mailing list?
09:07 < comedaybreak> no?  ok
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09:11 < akrill> lol
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19:00 < BlackBook> Well, crap.  Java on OS X can resolve a domain through
the firewall, but GoLang can't.
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19:08 < uriel> I blame Apple's latest feud with Google ;P
19:08 < uriel> I'm sure steve jobs got some magic code in the OS X kernel to
block Go...
19:09 < no_mind> uriel, that is a possibility
19:09 < uriel> no, that is a certainty!  ;P
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19:18 < ThunderChicken> disabling the firewall in the OS X System
Preferences allows GoLang to talk to the DNS Server.
19:18 < ThunderChicken> I am not wise in the ways of ipfw, as it appears to
say that anything is allowed to talk to anything on any port.
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19:40 < jshipley> Is there any way to get a minimal go binary to be anywhere
near as small as a minimal c binary, or is there at least a way to only import
part of a package?
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19:51 < ThunderChicken> jshipley, have you tried 'strip'?  (I haven't yet.
I shall try later, when I'm on an intel box.)
19:53 < Bombe> strip will currently cripple your compiled Go programs.
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19:57 < jshipley> Yeah, I just found that out :)
19:58 < Bombe> :)
19:58 < Bombe> It’s strange to see binaries actually _grow_ when using
strip.  :)
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19:59 < anticw> Bombe: strip breaks things
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20:00 < anticw> jshipley: small c programs have a dunamically linked libc,
go doesn't have that equivalent right now
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20:01 < Bombe> anticw, I know.  :)
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23:37 < uriel> jshipley: you can use gccgo
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23:40 < megaboz> any idea on how to make signal handling work inside a
goroutine?
23:42 < uriel> megaboz: http://golang.org/pkg/os/signal/
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23:44 < uriel> but signals are best avoided, they never play nicely with
concurrent programming
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23:54 < anticw> megaboz: what signal(s) are you after?
23:54 < anticw> i'm using signals here, but as uriel said if you can avoid
them sometimes that's best
23:54 < megaboz> uriel: i'm using that
23:54 < megaboz> anticw: i'm wrapping curses, so i wanted to intercept a
bunch
23:56 < anticw> yeah, so in that case you want os/signal
23:56 < anticw> fwiw, i think long-term a go [re]implemetation of
[n]curses/termcap would be nice, something that can work with eixsting term
database(s)
23:57 < anticw> that's on my TODO list (far down)
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23:58 < megaboz> http://pastie.org/879119
23:58 < megaboz> if i take out the 'go' it works
23:58 < megaboz> how is os/signal supposed to be used?
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23:59 < anticw> you can't do { }
23:59 < anticw> go won't yield with GOMAXPROCS=1
23:59 < anticw> so you hit an infinite loop
23:59 < anticw> put a time.Sleep(1e9) in there if you want to mess about
like that
23:59 < anticw> for { }
--- Log closed Sun Mar 21 00:00:24 2010