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01:01 < plexdev> http://is.gd/beJwl by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/ --
run.bash: remove MAKEFLAGS=-j4 to prevent crashing on freebsd
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03:37 < no_mind> is there a place where we are keeping track of db drivers
for go ?
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03:40 < jessta> no_mind: have you looked at http://go-lang.cat-v.org ?
03:41 < no_mind> jessta, yes but I am more concerned about the maturity of
the drivers.  Are we running some sort of tests on these drivers and pulishing,
how much mature/stable these drivers are
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03:50 < jessta> no_mind: nope, but you could do that
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04:00 < kmeyer> heh
04:00 < kmeyer> the language isn't even finalized yet
04:01 < no_mind> hmm what you mean by not finalized ?
04:03 < jessta> no_mind: syntax is still changing
04:03 < no_mind> I hardly noticed syntax change
04:05 < jessta> the semi-colon change, the recent addition of panic/recover,
the introdction of complex numbers etc.
04:07 < kmeyer> everything is still in flux
04:07 < kmeyer> binding stability can't really exist without language
stability, I fear.
04:08 < no_mind> ok, I havent noticed the semi-colon change.  What is it ?
rest I am aware of
04:11 < kmeyer> It probably happened before you started using the language
04:11 < kmeyer> But the point, really, is that nothing is set in stone yet.
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04:15 < no_mind> I guess semi-colon was not required since the day one of
language announcement
04:19 < jessta> no_mind: nah semi-colons were required for quite a while
04:19 < jessta> no_mind: the main thing it effects is where you put opening
braces
04:19 < no_mind> yes
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04:38 < no_mind> so how long will it take for the language to stablize ?
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04:43 < jessta> no_mind: years
04:43 < jessta> nobody knows
04:43 < jessta> because it will change with need
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04:43 < no_mind> jessta, that is true for all languages, they change with
needs
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04:44 < no_mind> jessta, but at some point of time, you have to freeze on
the syntax so that extensions/modules can be developed and applications can be
written
04:45 < jessta> yeah, but I imagine it will be a while yet
04:45 < jessta> but the changes aren't that much
04:45 < jessta> doesn't take much to fix an application to work with the new
syntax
04:46 < kmeyer> heh
04:46 < no_mind> wel I am evaluating Go for a large project, it provides me
with all the required features except one or two missing libraries
04:46 < kmeyer> jessta: Look at python3 ;)
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04:47 < jessta> kmeyer: what about python3?
04:48 < no_mind> even for python3 to be accepted widely, they have to stop
adding new features to python2 and python3 both.  Look how linux community moved
to 2.6 series from 2.4
04:49 < no_mind> unless there is a feature freeze, world will not accept the
new technology :)
04:51 < jessta> yeah, backwards compatibility and maintaining old version
tends to do that
04:51 < jessta> it's better to just drop support for old stuff and move
forward
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06:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bf5Ye by [Conrad Meyer] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- nntp: new package, NNTP client
06:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bf5Yn by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
good syntax error for defer func() {} - missing final ()
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06:48 < no_mind> anyone tried dynamic linking between go programs ?
06:48 < no_mind> I mean some kind of plugin driven app
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06:55 < kmeyer> no_mind: nope, but I'm very interested in seeing dynamic
linking with go
06:56 < no_mind> kmeyer, what could be the possible ways of developing a
plugin based app in go.  Something that allows us to deploy new plugins without
requiring to restart the running program
06:57 < uriel> ipc
06:57 < kmeyer> ipc, netchans, unix sockets, something like that
06:58 < kmeyer> I guess those all fall under ipc ;)
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06:59 < uriel> http://golang.org/pkg/rpc/
06:59 < uriel> exactly, pipes are a great option too
06:59 < uriel> but rpc would be closer to 'plugins', (which imho are a
usually, or even always, a bad idea and a sign of bad program design)
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07:42 < bjarneh> updated http://godag.googlecode.com with testing, if anyone
finds bugs or wants to contribute, let me know..
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08:00 < no_mind> uriel, then how do one design an application in which you
can easily add plugins later, without requiring whole app to be re-programmed
08:03 < kmeyer> heh, I think you're missing uriel's point...
08:04 < no_mind> kmeyer, I am refering to the point by uriel whih says rpc
is a bad idea and sign of bad program design
08:04 < kmeyer> no, uriel says that rpc is a sign of plugins, and that
plugins are a bad idea and a sign of bad program design
08:05 < no_mind> kmeyer, linux has loadable modules that do no use RPC
08:05 < jessta> actually, he said that plugins are a sign of bad program
design
08:05 < no_mind> well then 90% of the programs are bad...
08:05 < jessta> yes!
08:05 < kmeyer> more like 99%, I think
08:05 < no_mind> that needs another research by Rob Pike into pluggable
software :)
08:06 < jessta> most of my programs don't have plugins
08:06 < no_mind> jessta, then you fall in other 10% :)
08:06 < kmeyer> along those lines...
08:06 < kmeyer> no_mind: who said linux was well-designed?  :P
08:07 < no_mind> kmeyer, then please point me to a well designed program ?
08:07 < no_mind> Plan 9 ?
08:07 < kmeyer> no thanks!
08:07 < no_mind> kmeyer, wow :)
08:07 < kmeyer> I'm interpreting uriel's remarks
08:07 < kmeyer> I'm not claiming them as my own.
08:07 < no_mind> ok, I will wait for uriel to respond
08:08 < kmeyer> uriel's statement is also qualified, with 'usually'
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08:22 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bfd4N by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ --
programming_faq: added question on T vs *T method sets
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11:02 < uriel> no_mind: unix solved this problems forty years ago
11:02 < uriel> plan9 just improved on the solution further
11:02 < no_mind> uriel, so you suggest ipc
11:03 < no_mind> I was thinking of some other way, if possible.  Something
that involves direct function invocation, like linux kernel modules
11:05 < uriel> I suggest that grep, sed, cat and echo don't need a pluggin
architecture to work together
11:06 < uriel> linux kernel modules are a sign of bad design (and no, I'm
not a microkernel zealot)
11:06 < uriel> note that plan9 allows you to use multiple network stacks at
the same time, and it doesn't even have kernel loadable modules
11:06 < JBeshir> What would you replace Linux kernel modules with, then?
11:07 < uriel> it depends, but I have not used loadable modules on any linux
kernel I have built in years, just compile it all in
11:08 < JBeshir> Not really an acceptable solution for binary distributions,
or distributing a bootable copy of Linux expected to work on multiple systems.
11:08 < uriel> but it is a complicated problem that needs to be adressed in
the whole engineering process, once you can built something around the idea of
loadable modules, it is very hard to go and change it
11:09 < uriel> much of the linux kernel should be in user space anyway
11:09 < uriel> but again, that is another issue...
11:09 < uriel> a better example would be browser plugins
11:10 < uriel> and now browser plugins have learned that the design was
broken, and are starting to load them in separate processes
11:10 < uriel> that is how it should have been done from the start
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14:53 < uriel> oh, god, somebody make him shut up!  *sigh*
15:01 < kmeyer> ;)
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15:11 < no_mind> given a compiled go program, lets say app.8 . How do I
invoke the functions of app.8 from another program client.8 in the runtime,
without recompiling client.go ? Is there a way to dynamically import packages ?
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15:12 < jessta> no_mind: ...didn't we just discuss that?
15:13 < no_mind> jessta, not this exactly
15:13 < no_mind> jessta, and it has nothing to do with my previous question
15:13 < Zoopee> Once gccgo matures, shouldn't it be possible to use dlopen
and such?
15:15 < kmeyer> gccgo isn't the "main" go compiler
15:15 < Zoopee> kmeyer: but my understanding is that the goal is for the
compilers to eventually become compatible with each other
15:16 < Zoopee> Personally I think dynamic loading, while overused, has its
place, and should be supported by Go.
15:17 < kmeyer> Hm, I'm not sure the Go architects have that goal.
15:17 < kmeyer> (The compilers becoming compatible.)
15:17 < jessta> no_mind: you mean at link time?
15:17 < kmeyer> I'm all for dynamic loading.
15:18 < no_mind> jessta, nope, I mean runtime
15:18 < kmeyer> no_mind: I think the answer is still the same -- use ipc of
some kind
15:19 < jessta> no_mind: huh?  that's the same question
15:19 < no_mind> jessta, to give an example, python has API to import
packages
15:19 < jessta> python is interpreted
15:20 < soul9> nomen est omen
15:20 < no_mind> jessta, I know
15:21 < jessta> no_mind: what is the differnece between dynamically loading
a package and a 'plugin'?
15:23 < no_mind> jessta, I might dynamically load programs written in other
languages too, like java JNI
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15:24 < no_mind> jessta, though the difference is a minor one
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15:30 < Zoopee> kmeyer: Alright, I seem to recall I read so, but can't find
mentions of it now so I may have been wrong.
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15:31 < kmeyer> Well, the gccgo compiler is working torwards compatibility
with the 'gc' compilers (6g, 8g, 5g)
15:32 < kmeyer> but I don't think that extends to linking object files from
the two at this point
15:33 < Zoopee> kmeyer: "at this point" they are not compatible, but isn't
that the idea of compatibility?
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15:35 < Zoopee> it would be a shame to end up with the same incompatible
mess we got to with C++, where you have to recompile everything when switching
compilers.
15:35 < kmeyer> Sorry, I wasn't clear -- I mean, at this point, I don't
think link-compatibility is even a goal
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15:36 < kmeyer> the idea of compatibilty is, in this case, run-time
behavior, I think
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15:37 < ptrb> is this where I come to complain about Joan on the mailing
list, or is that somewhere else
15:37 < Zoopee> kmeyer: I'm not sure I understand, what do you mean by
"run-time behaviour"?
15:38 < kmeyer> same output given the same input...
15:38 < kmeyer> ptrb: heh.
15:38 < kmeyer> ptrb: you're not the only one.
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15:39 < Zoopee> kmeyer: you mean that they compile the same language?
15:40 < kmeyer> Yes.
15:40 < kmeyer> I've got to go catch my bus -- sorry if I don't respond for
a while :)
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15:46 < Zoopee> I'm aware that there isn't yet a final specification for
every detail of the language, but as it stabilizes that's a most elementary
requirement of a "correct" compiler.
15:47 < Zoopee> By itself a rather weak notion of compatibility, though...
Compatibility is when things can be used together.
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15:50 < Zoopee> And ultimately the ABI and object format should not be
defined by the compiler.
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19:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bfXm8 by [Russ Cox] in 14 subdirs of go/ --
runtime: various arm fixes
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20:29 < yebyen> hmm
20:29 < yebyen> anyone out there using golang+ndk for the android?
20:32 < uriel> yebyen: as far as I know there is no support for using Go
with the ndk
20:33 < uriel> (or no explicit support)
20:34 < uriel> you can run Go on andriod, but interfacing with the rest of
the andriod environment seems to be still not quite trivial
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20:49 < kmeyer> I might give the 5g toolchain a spin sometime soon, I got an
ARM-based phone recently
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21:44 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bg4vM by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/crypto/tls/
-- crypto/tls: good defaults
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 06 00:00:40 2010