--- Log opened Wed Apr 07 00:00:41 2010
00:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bhPCT by [Ken Thompson] in go/src/pkg/runtime/
-- change channel read to clear
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00:18 < traph> uriel: I'm checking it out.  Thanks!
00:20 < uriel> no problem
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00:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bhRcU by [Ken Thompson] in go/src/pkg/runtime/
-- another try at clearing
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00:59 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bhRZm by [Russ Cox] in go/test/ -- arm: fix
build, attempt #1
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01:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bhUBv by [Russ Cox] in go/test/ -- arm: fix
build, attempt #2
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02:20 < digi9> Hey, any RIT students in here, working on the Programming
Skills assignment?  Wondering if anybody else is as stuck as we are
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04:55 < defectiv> just upgraded my compiler and now this gives me a problem,
unexpected name, expected literal: import times "./times"
04:55 < defectiv> oops,
04:55 < defectiv> import "./times"
04:56 < defectiv> that worked before.
04:56 < defectiv> missing newline at end of file?  why would i put an empty
line at the end of a file?
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05:00 < defectiv> wonder whether i can make a more succinct iterator than
this: times.N(10).Do(func (i int) {
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05:08 < defectiv> go doesn't have constructors?
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05:09 < anticw> no
05:09 < anticw> new things are zeroed
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05:12 < defectiv> also there seems to be an error in the way pointers are
declared.  e.g.  var p *string = &s
05:12 < defectiv> &s is of type *string, then &&s is of type string
05:13 < defectiv> * and & are the opposite right?
05:14 < cbeck> defectiv: if &s is of type *string, then &&s is of type
**string
05:14 < defectiv> i thought * and & were the opposite of each other not the
same.
05:14 < cbeck> * has multiple meanings there
05:14 < defectiv> argh.
05:15 < cbeck> the * in var p *string indicates that p is a pointer
05:15 < defectiv> &*foo == foo, right?
05:15 < cbeck> yes
05:15 < defectiv> to indicate p is a pointer you should say, var p &string
05:15 < defectiv> p is a reference to a string
05:15 < cbeck> provided foo is a pointer and non null
05:16 < cbeck> defectiv: I agree that hat reads more naturally, however
that'd confuse the hell out of anyone who'd ever used C/C++, so it's not going to
happen
05:17 < defectiv> oh, C/C++ use that notation?  weird.
05:17 < cbeck> Yup
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05:18 < defectiv> okay, so no constructors.  a couple other basics...  other
than capitalization indicating visibility outside of the package, is there any
such thing as private/public variables?
05:18 < defectiv> and getter/setters like in ruby?
05:18 < defectiv> say i want to make a variable readable but not writeable.
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05:22 < cbeck> defectiv: Then you define a function GetFoo() in the same
file as a variable foo which returns a copy of foo's value
05:23 < cbeck> Simply because the language doesn't give
constructors/getters/setters some special syntax, doesn't mean you can't write
them
05:24 < defectiv> yeah, that's just a little verbose.
05:24 < cbeck> No more so than C++/Java
05:24 < defectiv> much more than ruby.
05:25 < defectiv> ruby sets the usability bar pretty high.
05:25 < cbeck> And the speed bar pretty low
05:25 < defectiv> ?
05:26 < defectiv> it's pretty fast for a dynamic language.  ruby 1.9 is
substantially faster than PHP for most programs of any length.
05:26 < defectiv> it's obviously not good for mathematical simulations or
operating systems.  it's great for things where your bottlenecks are e.g.  the
database.
05:26 < cbeck> Sure, but Go is designed to be a systems language, which
means performance at the expense of some verbosity
05:27 < defectiv> right.  that's why i'm saying it's not a big deal, just an
inconvenience.
05:27 < defectiv> seems go could have a simple getter/setter syntax without
sacrificing much.
05:27 < defectiv> but that's a slippery slope to feature bloat perhaps.
05:28 < cbeck> Exactly, Go is not designed to be an OO language, just a
language that makes it possible to write OO code, to some extent
05:29 < defectiv> yeah.  i actually agree with the interface concept in go.
i think it makes sense.
05:31 < defectiv> i work for zendesk.com, a respectable rails site, and it
can be difficult to extend or debug code when it's unclear where the heck
something was defined.
05:36 < cbeck> defectiv: I agree, and I worry that people will use the
'import .' syntax a lot out of lazyness and remove some of that easy traceability
05:40 < defectiv> i think that should be totally removed.
05:40 < defectiv> i just learned about it.
05:41 < defectiv> i work with some incredibly smart programmers, who hate
when languages try to enforce things like that.  the thing is, they are really
really smart, and we have a pretty small team.  it's easy to be familiar with the
code and convey conventions amongst the group.
05:41 < defectiv> you build out beyond that, or have even a few weak links
in a large company, and you need modularity, badly.  a pretty rigid modularity.
05:42 < defectiv> if the designers of the language are really good, and
think hard about the task, they can indeed put up some walls that are not overly
restrictive but help to keep code sane.
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05:48 < defectiv> what is with go's wanting a blank line at the end of the
file.  tre annoying.
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06:04 < cbeck> Eh, another holdover from C, I don't remember why
06:04 < cbeck> I think it just removes a corner case from parsing
06:06 < anticw> defectiv: you dont need a blank line
06:07 < defectiv> well, it complains if i don't have one.
06:08 < anticw> you need a line-feed
06:08 < anticw> not a black line
06:08 < anticw> err
06:08 < anticw> blank
06:08 < defectiv> ?
06:08 < defectiv> an extra carriage return is a blank line to me.
06:08 < anticw> huh?
06:09 < anticw> no, a blank line is ...\n\n
06:09 < defectiv> a single \n creates a new, empty, line.
06:09 < defectiv> open it up in vi and you will see.
06:09 < defectiv> or any editor in existence.
06:09 < defectiv> TextMate, you name it.
06:10 < anticw> i dont need to open anything in vi, i know you dont need a
blank line
06:10 < defectiv> that's a different issue.
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06:11 < anticw> echo "package foo" > /tmp/1.go
06:11 < anticw> try that, builds fine
06:20 < cbeck> sure, because echo appends a newline
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06:21 < anticw> newline != blank line
06:22 < cbeck> Not always, but \nEOF == blank line
06:22 < anticw> no it's not
06:22 < cbeck> How would you define a blank line?
06:23 < anticw> a line with no content
06:23 < anticw> if you mean "\n" as the entire file ...  sure, that's a
blank line
06:23 < anticw> but that won't build
06:23 < anticw> you need package ...  you can have one line not less right
now, and the last line does not need to be blank
06:25 < cbeck> ok, so you have ^package foo\n$ as it were
06:25 < cbeck> I'd call \n$ a blank line
06:27 < anticw> no
06:27 < anticw> it terminates the previous line
06:29 < cbeck> This argument is entirely silly
06:29 < anticw> yes it is :)
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07:01 < uriel> defectiv: fill a bug if that bothers you
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09:31 < araujo> := is for initialization right?
09:32 < araujo> var s string = "hi" ; and ...  s := "hi" are equivalents ?
09:43 < bortzmeyer> araujo: I would say yes
09:48 < exch> question about garbage collection.  Let's say I have a linked
list with 3 or more links/values in it.  If the first and last link are detached
from the linkedlist, they basically all become inaccessible.  Will the entire
chain be marked for the GC or do I have to break the individual reference as well?
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09:54 < exch> nvm.  Think I answered my own question.  Logically, there will
still be reference counts among the individual links so it'll just become a patch
of memory floating in the great void :p
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10:55 < pshr> !what
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12:52 < landswipe> can you guys target windows ce arm yet?
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12:57 < jessta> landswipe: there is a windows port, but I've no idea if it
would work on ce
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13:15 < landswipe> do u have a link to the windows port?
13:18 < jessta> landswipe: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/os-ports
13:19 < uriel> actually, for details this is better:
http://code.google.com/p/go/wiki/WindowsPort
13:19 < uriel> will link from go-lang.cat-v.org in a sec
13:21 < uriel> i
13:21 < uriel> in any case I don't think the windows port works for CE arm
at all
13:21 < uriel> afaik Windows CE is like a completely different platform
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13:29 < KnightMage> Microsoft even has special compilers for the CE
platform, so it is a completely different beast than regular windows.  I remember
writing code for the CE platform and it was lacking in features because of what it
can do.
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13:56 < Xilon> I'm trying to wrap a C function using the FFI.  The function
accepts a string (char *), which it modifies th econtents of (much like memcpy).
How do I create a C char * in Go so that I can pass it in?
13:57 < Xilon> In C it would be "char foo[16]; bar(foo);"
14:02 < fwiffo> Xilon: C.CString(), i think
14:03 < Xilon> There won't be problems with memory or anything, since the
function modifies it?
14:04 < fwiffo> Xilon: you need to free it after you use it
14:05 < Xilon> Ok, I'll try it
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14:25 < exch> hmm.  implementing a Stack as a linked list is consistently a
/lot/ faster than using a slice.  Eventhough the amount of code for handling the
linked list is quite a bit more involved
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14:26 < exch> I could prolly cut down on the slice approach by getting rid
of the resizing of a slice, but there will still be quite a few copy() calls
14:29 < uriel> exch: that seems strange...
14:30 < uriel> why do you need so many copy() calls?
14:30 < exch> I thought so to, but I tried it anyways
14:30 < exch> 'many' is a bit exagerrated
14:30 < uriel> I would expect you only need to copy() when you run out of
space
14:31 < uriel> and you could grow the size exponenitally which should mean
you have to do it rarely
14:31 < uriel> but maybe I'm missing something obvious
14:32 < exch> true.  but simply starting out with a pre-allocated slice of
some capacity apparently isnt enough.  Adding a new item to that slice requires
dynamic resizing which needs a copy
14:32 < exch> Thhough I do see now there is room for some improovement
14:32 < exch> I'll have to try when I get back in a bit
14:32 < Xilon> fwiffo: That seems to work, thanks!
14:33 < exch> right now, the linkedlist approach is an average of 55% faster
than the slice approach.  This is from 1000 runs of some test code
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15:13 < cbeck> exch: That's to be expected, especially if you use a linear
array increasing strategy
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16:08 < uriel> hah, I answer privately to that Joan guy telling him to
please stop posting so much noise to the list, and he answers to me that I should
post my comments to the list too!  haha
16:10 < dho> clearly a winner.
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18:15 < exch> http://txt.pastebin.com/vQFTGb4R it's official.  a
non-linearly increasig slice stack is fastest :) I got rid of all the copy() calls
18:15 < exch> I ran that list of tests a number of times and the results are
pretty much the same every time
18:15 < exch> linked list is close, but not quite as fast
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18:27 < uriel> exch: cool
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18:28 < uriel> good that I wasn't completely wrong for once :)
18:28 < exch> hehe
18:28 < exch> I should do thse more often.  it turns out I can squeeze quite
a bit of time out of my code :p
18:29 < uriel> what are you writting?
18:30 < exch> a postscript-ish compiler/runtime
18:30 < exch> since the stack is the heart of a postscript program, it pays
to make it fast :p
18:30 < uriel> cool
18:31 < uriel> did you see http://www.anarchyinthetubes.com/hg/go/ngaro and
http://github.com/ArtemTitoulenko/GoForth ?
18:32 < exch> mope.  not yet
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18:32 < uriel> (I don't know about GoForth, but yiyus knows his shit)
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23:08 < feliperibeiro> hi, i'm trying Go for the first time, i'm installing
it on snow leopard
23:09 < feliperibeiro> and when running ./all.bash i'm stuck for some
minutes on:
23:09 < feliperibeiro> gopack grc _test/net.a _gotest_.6
23:09 < feliperibeiro> is this test really long?
23:10 < exch> it shouldn't take 'minutes'
23:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bjbmQ by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- Language
FAQ: update the entry on exceptions.
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23:11 < feliperibeiro> :/
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23:22 < feliperibeiro> i downloaded the snapshot from mercurial
23:22 < feliperibeiro> is there any "stable" release?
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23:22 < feliperibeiro> it's still stuck there
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23:23 < bjarneh> feliperibeiro: you could try to see what's happening, by
adding a -v flag to the makefile perhaps..
23:24 < bjarneh> feliperibeiro: try so see what gopack is actually doing?
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23:25 < bjarneh> feliperibeiro: that will give you verbose output for all
your packing, but still :-)
23:25 < feliperibeiro> thanks, i'll do it
23:26 < feliperibeiro> as it's running the _test/net.a i suppose it's doing
something with the network
23:26 < feliperibeiro> and my network here is really slow
23:26 < feliperibeiro> maybe that's it
23:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bjcm4 by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- Language
FAQ: editing tweaks after iant.
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23:29 < bjarneh> i think gopack is an archiving tool, so i think it just
puts multiple files into an archive (like: tar/zip that sort of program)
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23:41 < bjarneh> feliperibeiro: that only displays the files it tries to
shove into the archive i'm afraid..  (the v option)
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 08 00:00:41 2010