--- Log opened Tue Apr 20 00:00:49 2010
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00:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bzV2R by [Andrew Gerrand] in
go/misc/dashboard/godashboard/ -- godashboard: remove obselete data models and
conversion code
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02:13 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bA0Oh by [Evan Shaw] in go/src/pkg/big/ --
big: Get rid of function pointers and init function
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06:26 < jesusaurus> have any of you successfully used cgo?
06:26 < rsaarelm> Yes.
06:26 < jesusaurus> i dont fully understand the linking process
06:27 < jesusaurus> im trying to follow
http://cheesesun.blogspot.com/2009/12/basic-cgo.html
06:27 < rsaarelm> I pretty much just went with the examples that came in the
source tree.
06:27 < jesusaurus> but make is giving me permission denied followed by
Error 1
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06:29 < jesusaurus> how can i build in a local directory?
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06:29 < rsaarelm> Can you build the example cgo stuff in the $GOROOT tree?
06:30 < jesusaurus> where local == ~/sub/
06:30 < rsaarelm> Should work fine as long as you have Go installed and can
access $GOROOT.
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06:31 < rsaarelm> I don't know what to make of the make error message.
Permission denied to do what?
06:31 < jesusaurus> i dont see any examples in $GOROOT
06:31 < rsaarelm> $GOROOT/misc/cgo/gmp.
06:31 < rsaarelm> http://golang.org/cmd/cgo/ See here.
06:32 < jesusaurus> the perm error is from `cp _obj/$PKG
$GOROOT/$GOOS_$GOARCH/$PKG`
06:33 < jesusaurus> huh, my $GOROOT doesnt have a /misc
06:33 < rsaarelm> It should be the checkout from the hg repo.  And you
should have write access there.
06:34 < rsaarelm> Meaning that there should be a misc and make should be
able to copy stuff to $GOROOT/$GOOS_$GOARCH/whatever.
06:35 < rsaarelm> Needing to have write access to the main Go dir is kind of
weird actually, I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with system-wide
installations used by non-privileged users, but as far as I know that's how it
works now.
06:36 < jesusaurus> huh, ok...
06:37 * jesusaurus sets perms and hopes for the best
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06:40 < jesusaurus> GAH
06:40 < jesusaurus> perms are set, and i still cant make the file
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07:00 < jesusaurus> i just cant seem to get it to work
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07:05 < rsaarelm> Try to get a fresh hg checkout of the Go tree to your home
directory and set GOROOT to point there.  Then try to build the gmp example from
misc.
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07:17 < jesusaurus> yay
07:18 < jesusaurus> i got asound to load in cgo
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08:17 < necrogami> Morning
08:17 < cbeck> 'lo
08:18 < necrogami> Call me crazy but i'm working on porting my IRC Bot from
PHP/Zend Framework -> Go
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08:45 < jesusaurus> what is 'type ideal'?
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09:11 < cbeck> jesusaurus: From which package?
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09:14 < jesusaurus> im not sure
09:14 < jesusaurus> soundtest.cgo1.go:40: cannot use 44100 (type ideal) as
type *_C_uint in function argument
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09:24 < cbeck> jesusaurus: So, Go constants are stored as 'ideal' numbers in
that they are supposed to be about as close to reals as you can get, when you use
them in a pure go program, they're cast down automatically
09:24 < cbeck> I'm guessing you just need to cast to uint32 or uint
09:24 < jesusaurus> ah, ok, but a cast wont do it
09:25 < jesusaurus> ive been reading up on the function and the sample code
is bum
09:25 < cbeck> hhmm
09:25 < jesusaurus> it needs a pointer, not an int
09:27 < cbeck> Gotcha, do you know why it would use a constant in a call
that took a ptr?
09:28 < jesusaurus> im guessing they changed the function, it alters the var
so that it correctly holds the bitrate
09:29 < jesusaurus> im just going to use one of the other functions
09:31 < jesusaurus> awesome, it compiled
09:31 * jesusaurus -> sleep
09:31 < cbeck> night
09:32 < jesusaurus> g'night
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09:37 < Boney> win 1
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09:45 < nf_> Boney: haha
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09:48 < Boney> nf_: s/^/\//
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14:49 < conra> hello all
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15:49 < conra> hm
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15:49 < conra> where is iant?  :)
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16:35 < kimelto> morning!
16:36 < conra> hi
16:36 < conra> hehe
16:36 < conra> kimelto: i have 6:37pm
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16:41 < kimelto> conra: export TZ=America/Los_Angeles
16:42 < conra> ^^
16:42 < conra> im from poland
16:42 < conra> utc+1
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18:18 < gucko> hi guys
18:18 < gucko> I want to ask about a programming language to learn.  I know
Java really well and I know some C. What I hate about Java is that you have to
install a JRE for the user to run its program.  Also that it's not fast in Linux
(The GUI is so buggy).  But I like that it's really well designed from a software
engineering perspective.  I love OOP.  Now what I like about C is that it's
fucking fast!  And the user don't have to install anything for it to work.  But
18:18 < gucko> what about Objective-C?  Or Ruby or Go (From Google)?
18:18 < gucko> please tell me what suites me, not what you like!!!
18:18 < gucko> I don't know a lot about Go, that's why I'm asking here
18:19 < gucko> does it meet what I'm looking for?!
18:19 -!- yaroslav [~yaroslav@109.170.106.65] has quit [Quit: yaroslav]
18:20 < smw_> gucko: you are asking in a very biased area
18:20 < gucko> smw_: yeah I know, but hopefully people here will not just
say Go is good!
18:20 < dho_plan9> If speed is a primary concern, look at
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org
18:20 < smw_> Go is good
18:21 < gucko> I hope they'll see what I said about my needs, then they
respond by Yes or no
18:21 < dho_plan9> Go has OOP paradigms, but does not go as far as C++ or
Java
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18:21 < gucko> dho_plan9: so Go is a structured langauge?
18:21 < smw_> gucko: go is also fast.  I think of it as C+ (in between c and
c++)
18:21 < smw_> gucko: yes
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18:22 < gucko> what about Objective-C?
18:22 < JBeshir> Go is more like C-
18:22 < dho_plan9> The decision is really yours, I think people here are
going to be reluctant to say "use Go" both because of the inherent bias and
because it's still a very new language.
18:22 < JBeshir> It feels like a smaller language
18:22 < dho_plan9> It's definitely not, heh.
18:22 < dho_plan9> gucko: Why don't you read up on a few different languages
and see what suits you?
18:23 < smw_> JBeshir: Go has garbage collection, proper string handling,
ect.  It is definitally not smaller
18:23 < gucko> nobody answered my question!  What about objective-C?!
18:23 < JBeshir> smw_: Those do not make the language itself bigger.
18:23 < JBeshir> They make the compiler/runtime bigger, possibly.
18:23 < Venom_X> obj-c is not as portable as go, or java, etc
18:23 < smw_> gucko: what do you plan to make?
18:23 < dho_plan9> gucko: Go read up on it yourself.
18:24 < gucko> Venom_X: oh!
18:24 < smw_> Venom_X: go == portable?  Tell that to windows people
18:24 < JBeshir> I will
18:24 < JBeshir> Then I will laugh at them
18:24 < Venom_X> hehe..  well between os-x and linux
18:24 < JBeshir> It's portable to POSIX OSes.  :P
18:24 < JBeshir> Not Go's fault Windows sucks as one.  :P
18:25 < Venom_X> obj-c has gnustep..  but if you want the cool gui (cocoa),
you won't get that to run on anything besides osx based os
18:25 < JBeshir> Seriously, I wouldn't really call it that until it was
portable to most things.
18:25 < smw_> same here
18:25 < smw_> I think it is portable when it works on windows personally.
18:25 < dho_plan9> Venom_X: etoile is trying to change that.
18:25 < JBeshir> smw_: You need to fix that statement, but I think I know
what you mean.
18:26 < taruti> btw new windows versions are quite posixy
18:26 < gucko> so ob-C isn't as portable as Java or C!
18:26 < JBeshir> Anyways, I personally think Go is an excellent language to
learn because it is fast, but provides the key things needed to make programming
more efficient and simpler, like garbage collection and interfaces.
18:26 < smw_> JBeshir: I think it is portable when it works on win, mac,
linux without extra code.
18:26 < JBeshir> And safe programming easier, too; types and so.
18:26 < JBeshir> smw_: There you go.  :P
18:27 < JBeshir> I think "portable" requires a clause saying *what* it is
portable between to be really evaluatable.
18:27 * dho_plan9 hates this artifical "win / mac / linux" triage.
18:27 < smw_> gucko: what are you making?
18:27 < Venom_X> gucko: I guess you might want to tell us what you're trying
to do.  It might be that go fits your challenge.  Or not?
18:27 < smw_> dho_plan9: but it is reality.  It does not matter if you hate
it.
18:27 < dho_plan9> There are tons of other operating systems that enjoy
widespread use that are none of those three.
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18:27 < Venom_X> hehe..  we got trolled
18:28 < JBeshir> dho_plan9: I think "portable" as a word is largely
ambiguous.
18:28 < smw_> dho_plan9: well...  mac + linux = just about all unix.  If it
works on those two, it should work on others
18:28 < dho_plan9> ehhhhhhh
18:28 < JBeshir> Assuming a default of "to the three largest desktop
operating systems"
18:28 < JBeshir> Seems reasonable to me
18:28 < taruti> Go is not very portable at the moment.
18:28 < JBeshir> But I think arguing the right interpretation of an
ambiguous statement is kinda silly, so it doesn't matter much
18:29 < smw_> +1 JBeshir
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18:29 < smw_> and gucko is one of the most successful trolls I have seen.
18:29 < dho_plan9> JBeshir: I'd argue that portability has nothing to do
with what it does run on, but what it can run on.
18:29 < dho_plan9> :)
18:30 < JBeshir> Could you explain?
18:30 < dho_plan9> JBeshir: If you have a closed program that runs on one
OS, that's certainly not portable.
18:30 < JBeshir> Ah.
18:31 < dho_plan9> If you have an open source bit of code that runs on one
OS, it's very portable.  It may not be portED, but that doesn't necessarily
preclude its portability.
18:31 < JBeshir> Interesting.
18:31 < JBeshir> What if it is in platform-specific assembly?
18:31 < JBeshir> Is it portable because it could be ported to another
language?
18:31 < JBeshir> (Possibly another platform's assembly)
18:32 < dho_plan9> Portability is a concept.  So if the functionality can
exist in a conceptually similar fashion, then yeah.
18:32 < JBeshir> Interesting view.
18:32 < JBeshir> Literally "capable of being ported"
18:32 < dho_plan9> I mean, I ported Go to FreeBSD, there's platform / arch
specific assembler there.
18:33 < dho_plan9> But it's not really difficult
18:33 < JBeshir> Different definition of the term, "capable of being ported"
rather than "functions without changes".  Closer to the word itself.
18:34 < smw_> dho_plan9: tell that to a person that wants his kde program on
windows.
18:34 < smw_> not that difficult?
18:34 < JBeshir> Why would someone want a KDE program
18:34 < JBeshir> Okay, sorry, I shouldn't have said that, I kid.  XD
18:34 < smw_> lol
18:34 < dho_plan9> I was speaking specifically of the Go port.
18:34 < smw_> My mom wants kbreakout.  It is a great arcade game :-)
18:35 < JBeshir> Damn game suites.
18:35 < JBeshir> I think I have GNOME's.
18:35 < dho_plan9> JBeshir: So, if "functions without changes" is the
definition, sure.  But any mildly complex application probably requires some
OS-specific code.
18:35 < smw_> game suites tied into desktop suites.
18:35 < JBeshir> dho_plan9: Yeah.
18:35 < dho_plan9> (Which is why I tend to view it with my own definition)
18:35 < taruti> Go avoiding libc makes porting harder.
18:36 < smw_> dho_plan9: I have to agree with that.  Unless it is running
inside a box (python)
18:36 < JBeshir> Well
18:36 < JBeshir> Even then, portable is limited.
18:36 < smw_> JBeshir: how?
18:36 < JBeshir> smw_: It runs on things Python runs on
18:36 < dho_plan9> smw_: Because you're relying on ...  ^
18:36 < smw_> true
18:37 < smw_> I mean that it runs without anything on what the python was
ported to
18:37 < smw_> all my python apps work on all python compatable systems.
Without any modification
18:37 < dho_plan9> Unless you do OS-specific stuff
18:37 < JBeshir> dho_plan9: I wouldn't presume at all to say "your
definition is wrong", I find it an interesting thing.
18:37 < dho_plan9> (Hardcoding paths, for instance)
18:38 < smw_> of course python's source is probably riddled with if windows
then...
18:38 < JBeshir> Haha.
18:38 < JBeshir> Disturbingly possible.
18:38 < dho_plan9> Nah, python's got all its OS-specific code in different
directories.
18:38 < dho_plan9> for that OS
18:38 < JBeshir> Ah.
18:38 < JBeshir> Neater.
18:38 < dho_plan9> specifically to avoid #ifdef hell
18:39 < smw_> cool
18:39 < dho_plan9> But yeah, using the other definition, just because it's
written in a "portable" language doesn't make the program inherently portable
18:40 < JBeshir> Using the other definition, I think everything is only
"portable to <set of platforms>"
18:40 < dho_plan9> And then once modules come into play, it gets even
hairier
18:40 < smw_> dho_plan9: I have been wondering, what is the best way to have
a func act differently on two OS with go?
18:40 < smw_> for example
18:40 < smw_> the path pkg
18:40 < JBeshir> Which is a kinda weird way to use a word "portable".
18:40 < JBeshir> Damnit, now it looks strange.
18:40 < smw_> How would I extend it to check if it is on windows and compile
a different function?
18:40 < dho_plan9> smw_: Have two different implementations in different
files, conditionally compiling in one or the other depending on the OS
18:41 < dho_plan9> See for example pkg/os
18:41 < smw_> ok
18:41 < dho_plan9> or pkg/net
18:41 < smw_> or syscall
18:41 < dho_plan9> syscall's grosser because much of it is at least
partially autogenerated.
18:41 < smw_> I was thinking of rewriting path to work with windows
18:42 < smw_> as long as someone is porting it
18:42 < dho_plan9> There's been some recent progress if subjects from the ML
are any indication
18:42 < dho_plan9> I haven't been particularly active in the community
recently
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18:47 < taruti> btw has anyone got a working socketpair or file descriptor
sending code written in Go?
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18:58 < Zoopee> Go is a language, i.e.  an interface.  The common ordinary
concept refers to implementations, not interfaces.
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19:00 < Zoopee> And then for an actual implementation, i.e.  code, for
"portability" to be meaningful you need to assume (or declare) some relevant base.
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19:13 < ptrb> so if I emailed Joan directly and told him/her to stop posting
to golang-nuts, would it have any effect?  has anyone done this yet?
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19:15 < sladegen> i think they did...
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19:16 < kmeyer> ptrb: no effect whatsoever
19:16 < kmeyer> pretty sure I've done the same
19:16 < addos> why does the { have to be on the same line as a func name?
19:17 < kmeyer> addos: because of the automatic semicolon insertion by the
lexer
19:17 < Zoopee> For an arbitrary C program that does some processing and
reads/writes stdin/stdio/files, a reasonable base for "portable" would mean
standard C. i.e.  you can compile it with any C compiler and standard C library on
any system that has those and run it.  For a network server using processes and
such, a reasonable base to define "portable" would be standard Unix stuff -- if
you can build and run it on any Unix system, it's portable.
19:17 < kmeyer> addos: I think the go faq mentions it
19:17 < kmeyer> that is, in more detail
19:17 < addos> let me take a look
19:17 < JBeshir> addos: Because the parser reads it as an end of statement,
otherwise.
19:17 < JBeshir> Ends of line in many cases are implicit ends of statement.
19:18 < kmeyer> Zoopee: however, re-implementing all of the stuff most
programs need for portability adds a bunch of overhead
19:18 < kmeyer> fortunately there's things like the APR
19:19 < addos> is there an easy way to read lines from a file, a line at a
time?
19:20 < Zoopee> kmeyer: not sure what you are referring to, but your general
statement sounds right
19:20 < kmeyer> heh, sorry
19:21 < kmeyer> I think we agree, but I'm too tired to express myself
correctly at the moment
19:21 < kmeyer> :)
19:21 < kmeyer> addos: wrap your Reader in a bufio.Reader, and then
ReadString('\n') or ReadBytes('\n')
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19:22 < addos> let me try that
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19:29 < ptrb> Well, let's see if a single-line reply of "Please stop posting
to the golang-nuts mailing list.
19:29 < ptrb> " has any effect
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19:47 < Zoopee> What I meant to say is, as the nature of your program (as
in, what it is actually doing) becomes more specific, you need to restrict the
base space for "portability".  If you write an audio player, you are obviously
going to depend on some audio interface -- so ANSI C by itself would be a useless
base to claim it is un-portable.  OTOH if you write a program to removes duplicate
messages from a mailbox, it's not reasonably portable if it works only on Linux
x64
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19:52 < Zoopee> So you can ask if the Go compiler, or the Go runtime are
portable.  For both of these it's a lot more difficult to define such a base
though.  Compilers are generally inherently unportable, since they write out
processor-specific (e.g.  amd64) machine code in a system-specific format (e.g.
ELF).  But just asking whether "Go is portable" is rather meaningless.
19:54 < Zoopee> Of course in the real world you often have some part where
you need some unportable functionality and use a system specific interface for
that.  If your program is modular and you can abstract that out of the rest of the
code, then various parts of the code can have their appropriate level of
portability.
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21:00 < yebyen> does anyone know how to get one character of input without
demanding a newline?
21:00 < yebyen> ReadByte is not doing it...
21:01 <+iant> yebyen: on Unix you need to put the terminal into raw mode,
but there is no Go interface for that at present as far as I know
21:01 < yebyen> seriously?
21:02 < yebyen> i swear my professor's implementation of this project had
that feature
21:02 < yebyen> and it's a class on go
21:02 < yebyen> if i use cgo/ncurses primer that i found, that should do it?
21:02 <+iant> yes, probably
21:03 < yebyen> he said specifically he didn't expect us to do ncurses, but
i need cgo for my grad project anyway
21:07 < yebyen> ok
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21:10 < kmeyer> yebyen: whoah, where are you taking a class on go already?
21:10 < exch> O.o that's fast :p And also a bit reckless to teach a language
that isn't finished yet
21:11 < exch> fun though :)
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21:15 < yebyen> kmeyer: RIT
21:15 < yebyen> exch: it's an upper level elective, and you should hear the
groans that come out of Axel when there is a new release that says "major changes"
21:16 < exch> hehe sounds like he's having fun XD
21:16 < kmeyer> yebyen: neat
21:16 < yebyen> our department office is slow
21:16 < yebyen> so we standardized on one release at the beginning of the
quarter
21:17 < exch> No doubt that means rewriting half his paperwork with teaching
material
21:17 < yebyen> and we read the release notes, but only to see what kinds of
changes are necessary
21:17 < yebyen> for example he's German so he goes overboard talking about
the runes crap and how it's all changed lately
21:17 < exch> Perhaps it's worth asking the Go team to include his paper
rewrites in gofmt ;)
21:17 < yebyen> he told us about the gofmt scriptable tool
21:17 < yebyen> that is sick
21:18 < yebyen> "well, the language changed, but as long as you feed your
code through this filter, you'll be fine..."
21:19 < yebyen> so now we're writing this Wagon Train app
21:19 < yebyen> we're supposed to make it based on a factory pattern
21:19 < yebyen> press a key to add a car to the train, it goes on the front
or the back of the linked list
21:20 < yebyen> press a different key to move the front or the back of the
wagon around the screen, don't let the wagon run itself over
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21:21 < yebyen> and apparently the node should return the next or previous
node without storing it internally
21:21 < yebyen> it's closed over the neighboring nodes
21:24 < yebyen> i don't quite understand yet
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23:51 < nf_> yebyen: are you enjoying working with go?
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--- Log closed Wed Apr 21 00:00:50 2010