--- Log opened Thu May 27 00:00:13 2010
--- Day changed Thu May 27 2010
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00:53 < micrypt> How does one append to a value to temp []string?
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01:16 < drhodes> has anyone managed to get a texture, or any bitmap rendered
with banthar's opengl library?
01:17 < plexdev> http://is.gd/cqFE8 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
fmt.Scan: custom formatters
01:17 < plexdev> http://is.gd/cqFEb by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
fmt.Scan: custom formatters
01:18 < drhodes> micrypt: have you tried PushBack ?
01:19 < micrypt> drhodes: Thanks.  I haven't.  How does that work?
01:19 < drhodes> just someSlice.PushBack(element) I think
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01:21 < drhodes> micrypt: that might just be for lists though
01:24 < micrypt> drhodes: Can't seem to find any documentation on
dynamically extending arrays
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01:25 < drhodes> micrypt: here's an Append defined for slices in the docs
-> http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#slices
01:35 < micrypt> drhodes: I might be reading this wrongly, but the example
in the link would be expecting to append a slice to an existing slice rather than
an item to a slice.
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01:51 < MizardX> container/vector is a slice with a few methods for dynamic
resizing.
01:51 < Eko> especially if you're using a string or an int
01:51 < Eko> it's not quite as nice for general purpose stuff though.
01:51 < Eko> !gopkg vector
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01:52 * Eko looks it up himself
01:52 < Eko> http://golang.org/pkg/container/vector
01:52 < MizardX> You can use the generic version, and just cast to your
type.  vec.At(i).(T)
01:52 < Eko> yeah, but that's slightly more painful lol.
01:53 < MizardX> The alternative is re-implementing it for your type
01:53 < Eko> the vector is also nice because it allows you to get a slice
out of it if it's ints and strings, which is really handy for writing utility
functions
01:56 < micrypt> MizardX: Thanks, this should help.
01:56 < micrypt> Eko: Thanks
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02:30 < Colman> Hello, all, I would like to assist in porting Go to Windows
but I am unsure where to begin.  Where might I be directed in order to catch up on
what needs to be done or whom should I contact?  As for myself, I have several
years of experience with programming in C and I am currently learning Go.
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02:49 < Colman> This certainly is not a very active channel.  Is there a
better time to access it?
02:50 < Ginto8> well typically it gets active when someone has a problem
that people can easily help with
02:50 < Ginto8> Go for windows I believe is a minGW port
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02:51 < Ginto8> google "go mingw" or "go for windows" and you should be able
to find the web page (I believe it's google code)
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02:51 < Colman> There seems to be more than one project.
02:51 < Eko> I found http://code.google.com/p/go-windows/ , but I'm not sure
that's the one everyone is working on
02:52 < Eko> I seem to remember having seen one with a really long list of
developers somewhere >_<
02:54 < Colman> There seems to be more than one effort or at least Google
Code page.
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02:54 < Colman> http://code.google.com/p/go/wiki/WindowsPort leads to more
than one URL.
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02:57 < meatmanek> o_O Eko is here
02:57 * Eko waves at m
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02:57 < Eko> grr, tab completion is broken.
02:57 < Colman> There is: http://code.google.com/p/go-windows/ ,
http://code.google.com/p/gomingw/, and
http://code.google.com/r/hectorchu-go-windows/
02:59 < Colman> The last one that seems to be updated is the gomingw
project.
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03:03 < Colman> Although I am somewhat confused because under the main
project branch there are Windows specific modifications and changes.
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03:58 < Nola> golang.org seems to be missing information about polymorphism
03:59 < jessta> Nola: see interfaces
04:00 < Eko> !goego interfaces
04:00 < GoBIR> Eko: Effective Go interfaces and types -
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#interfaces_and_types
04:00 < GoBIR> Eko: Effective Go interfaces -
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#interfaces
04:00 < Nola> I already read both of those.
04:01 < Nola> Nothing really there about polymorphism.
04:01 < Eko> Interfaces provide the method by which you can create, say, a
function or method that is able to handle multiple different types of structures
04:01 < Nola> not static polymorphism
04:01 < Eko> there is no polymorphism, per se, in Go
04:01 < Nola> lol ?
04:01 < Nola> are you kidding
04:01 < Nola> no runtime polymorphism?
04:02 < jessta> Nola: yeah, interfaces
04:02 < Nola> thats static
04:02 < jessta> not really
04:02 < Nola> ok pls translate
04:02 < jessta> many types can statify can interface
04:03 < jessta> *an interface
04:03 < jessta> Nola: go doesn't have classes and inheritnce
04:04 < Nola> Right, so how do you make a container of polymorphic objects
04:04 < Eko> you make a container of an interface
04:04 < jessta> you use the empty interface called interface{}
04:04 < Eko> []Reader, for instance
04:05 < Eko> jessta: well, that's only if you want to store *any* type
04:05 < jessta> indeed
04:05 < Nola> i dont want to store any type
04:05 < Nola> ok, forget the container part
04:05 < Nola> I just want a pointer/reference
04:05 < Eko> Nola: if you have six structures which all satisfy the shape
interface, nothing is stopping you from storing them at will into a []Shape
04:05 < Nola> which can point to either a monkey or a bear
04:06 < Eko> a *Animal will work suitably.
04:06 < Nola> and if I call myanimal.Speak(); on it, it will go "Ooh ooh" or
"Grrr."
04:06 < Eko> yep.
04:06 < Nola> so the same works on a container?
04:07 < Nola> Oh.
04:07 < Nola> thats the slice.
04:07 < Nola> []Shape
04:07 < Nola> <Eko> there is no polymorphism, per se, in Go
04:07 < Nola> Why did you say that before?
04:07 < jessta> because there isn't really
04:08 < Nola> he just said you can store containers of interfaces
04:08 < Nola> thats polymorphism
04:08 < jessta> a type is itself and it can't be anything else
04:08 < jessta> but it can have things in common with other types
04:08 < Nola> how is it not polymorphism?
04:08 < Namegduf> Go has polymorphic dispatch
04:08 < Namegduf> Via interfaces
04:09 < Namegduf> That is it, and that is enough
04:09 < Eko> Usually I see the complaint about no polymorphism having to do
with no duplicate method naming
04:09 < Nola> duplicate method naming?
04:09 < Nola> oh
04:09 < Nola> function overloading for a particular type
04:10 < Eko> yeah.
04:10 < Nola> you can overload on the target though, right?
04:11 < Eko> there really is no way to have, for instance, a write(s string)
and a write(i int)
04:11 < Nola> func (this Foo) size() { ...  }; func (this Bar) size() { ...
};
04:11 < Eko> nothing is stopping you from having a write(x interface{}), but
yuck.
04:12 < Eko> Nola: you can definitely do that; and both would satisfy
interface{size()}
04:13 < Nola> if there's no plain-old-overloading, how do you reasonably do
stuff like a pow() function that works on both ints and doubles
04:14 < Eko> incidentally, it doesn't look like math has pow...
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04:15 < Eko> oh hmm.  the cmath package has pow
04:15 < Eko> !gopkg cmath
04:15 < GoBIR> Eko: Package cmath - http://golang.org/pkg/cmath
04:16 < Eko> but it only works complex128s, lol
04:16 < smw> !help
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04:17 < Nola> I can understand the desire to want to simplify the language
by removing overloading
04:18 < Nola> But I don't think you can get by without it
04:18 < Nola> there's a few "alternatives"
04:18 < Nola> use templates/generics and *require* the template
04:18 < Nola> x = pow<int>(x, 2);
04:19 < Nola> or make a bunch of dumb names in the module like ...
04:19 < Nola> x = pow_int(x, 2)
04:20 < Nola> The latter is really too dirty to be a method used in a
language thats attempting to clean things up
04:20 < Eko> the latter is how it would have to be done for now.
04:20 < Eko> !gofaq generics
04:20 < jessta> Nola: or something like "cmath/int" int.pow(x,2)
04:20 < Nola> and if I'm doing systems programming, I dont want to work with
complex128's every time I pow something
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04:21 < Nola> int.pow(x,2) would work
04:21 < Eko> if you were doing serious math programming, you may indeed be
doing all of your math in complex128s.
04:22 < Nola> is that valid syntax?
04:22 < jessta> Nola: you'd have to make an "int" package
04:22 < Eko> is what valid syntax?  int.pow(x,2)?  she's suggesting that at
some point someone might write subpackages for cmath for each major type.
04:23 < Nola> I understand what shes suggesting
04:23 < Nola> im asking if int.pow(x,2) is valid syntax
04:23 < kmeyer> Nope
04:23 < Eko> it would be int.Pow(x,2) but other than that, sure.
04:23 < Eko> actually, no, int is a reserved word.
04:23 < Eko> kmeyer wins >_<
04:24 < kmeyer> hah, that wasn't what I was thinking of
04:24 < kmeyer> I meant what Eko said :P
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04:24 < Eko> there is also a greater-than-zero chance that there is a
third-party package that has sensible wrappers for the math libraries.
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04:27 < Eko> oh, and I lied because I'm blind.  the math package does have a
Pow(x,y float64) package.
04:27 < Eko> *function
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04:29 < jessta> Eko: oh good point
04:30 < jessta> "cmath" is "complex math"
04:30 < Nola> haha
04:31 < Nola> so to resolve the name there
04:31 < Nola> its math.Pow vs cmath.Pow ?
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04:33 < jessta> so I guess you could have "imath.Pow", "fmath.Pow"
04:33 < Nola> the overloading in C++ allowed the expressions themselves to
be more comprehensible
04:33 < Eko> I totally thought (I used to be a C++ guy, caught me) that
cmath was a lower-level math.
04:33 < Nola> throw in a bunch of package names into the middle of a math
equation
04:33 < Nola> its gonna be a nightmare
04:33 < Eko> Nola: incidentally, a similar discussion was had on golang-nuts
not too long ago:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/25d8068784971c15/f1117f7ab3eaaa37?#f1117f7ab3eaaa37
04:34 < Nola> thx
04:34 < Eko> but it's basically repeating what we said here...
04:35 < Nola> heh
04:35 < Eko> also, if you don't like having math.Pow(…) littering your code,
you can import . "math" and Pow will be in the local namespace
04:36 < Eko> so as long as you were working natively with float64s, I don't
think the code would become too convoluted.
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05:05 < Eko> man, channels and goroutines take some thinking and planning to
design for, lol.
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05:08 < jessta> Eko: I find they make design rather easier
05:09 < Eko> jessta: I often get my signals crossed and try to fork things
into separate goroutines that should run in the same one and run the ones that
should fork, lol
05:09 < Eko> if that made any sense at all...
05:09 < jessta> nope..
05:10 < Eko> so, for instance, I have various message handling functions
that are called and can spit back standard messages and error text via two
channels
05:11 < Eko> I thought, originally, that I should "go" the handler function
and process the messages in the current goroutine, when the opposite makes more
sense.
05:14 < Eko> also, is there a better way to debug what goroutines I have
idling than to SIGTERM the process and examine the panic?  lol
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05:24 < jessta> Eko: reading the code is best
05:28 < Eko> I actually saw the bug by reading my code (I'm getting better!)
and verified it and verified that I fixed it by panicing the program and seeing
what goroutines were there.
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08:47 < Eko> Would it be considered a bug if a certain format string crashes
Go?
08:48 < Eko> for fmt.*print*
08:48 < jessta> Eko: yes, sounds like a bug to me
08:48 < Eko> even if it's an invalid format string?
08:48 < Eko> fmt.Printf("%-11", "test")
08:49 < Eko> I forgot the s, and *BAM* go crashes.
08:49 < Eko> well, panics.
08:49 < Nola> has anyone actually coded a GUI app in Go?
08:49 < Eko> normally the fmt package is good about doing something sensible
when you are mean to it.
08:49 < jessta> Nola: I think someone made a twitter client using gogtk
08:54 < Nola> lol the only binding is GTK
08:55 < jessta> Nola: there are SDL, GTK, xlib, opengl, and cario bindings
08:55 < jessta> all in various stages of development
08:56 < jessta> you can also make your GUI a web app
08:56 < Eko> or even give it an IRC frontend >:-)
08:57 < jessta> Nola: http://go-lang.cat-v.org/
09:02 < mpl> how much of p9p went into go?  is there libdraw or anything
else to draw in acme?
09:03 < mpl> well s/draw/print/ really.
09:04 < jessta> mpl: there is exp/draw which is the start of a go
implementation of libdraw
09:04 < jessta> mpl: there is also, http://code.google.com/p/goplan9/
09:05 < mpl> ok, thx.
09:05 < Nola> well im trying not to lash out negatively but
09:05 < Nola> I'm a windows user
09:05 < Nola> Did you ever use a GTK app on windows?
09:05 < mpl> poor you.  ;)
09:05 < jessta> plenty of times
09:05 < jessta> Nola: it you want to use native windows GUI then write
bindings
09:05 < Nola> well, i'm a perfectionist, I notice little things.  You have
to be really un-exacting to use a GTK app on windows
09:06 < Nola> the binding is really, really really bad
09:06 < Nola> flickers everywhere, high latency
09:06 < Nola> blocking, deadlocks
09:06 < Nola> really slow
09:06 < araujo> stop using windows
09:06 < Nola> Qt is perfect on windows
09:06 < Nola> I can't stop using windows
09:06 < mpl> it's not like gtk is that great on linux either anyway.
09:06 < Nola> It's a requirement for what I do
09:07 < Eko> Nola: I find that statement to be false quite often.
09:08 < jessta> Nola: the language has only been released for 6 months, it's
still pretty much in Alpha
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09:08 < Eko> Maybe that's what everyone else uses, maybe that's what the
software you're comfortable using runs on, but that's not really the same.
09:08 < Nola> well its literally true for what I do
09:08 < jessta> it's actually amazing that any GUI bindings exist at all
09:08 < Nola> Linux is 20 years behind
09:08 < Eko> I'm with you there, jessta
09:08 < Eko> Nola: woah, woah.  Flame bait.
09:09 < Nola> For audio.
09:09 < Nola> I do music.
09:09 < Nola> there's ~50,000 music plugins (vst's) for windows
09:09 < Nola> there's ...  50 of them for linux
09:09 < Nola> And there's no sequencers, no trackers
09:09 < Nola> nothing
09:10 < jessta> Nola: so use windows, and imporove the windows port of Go
09:10 < Nola> it's so infantile a stage, they're still trying to figure out
how to connect "app A to app B"
09:10 < Eko> Nola: So use Mac =P
09:11 < jessta> Nola: yeah audio on linux sucks, but so many other things
suckless about it
09:11 < Nola> audio's all i do
09:12 < Eko> so become a part of the solution!  Help develop the VSTs you
need for mac or linux =P
09:12 < jessta> Nola: ever tried using a different window manager on
windows?  it's seriously annoying
09:13 < Eko> jessta: does windowsblinds count?  that particular package
could do some seriously crazy stuff really nicely.
09:13 < Nola> Eko: even if I made a working sequence for linux, there'd
still be nothing to "use it with"
09:13 < Nola> *sequencer
09:13 < Eko> and let me guess, you just don't like Mac?
09:13 < Nola> mac doesnt have any good audio software
09:14 < Nola> except stuff for newbs
09:14 < Nola> like "protools" or "garageband" heh
09:14 < Eko> my co-TA who is getting his masters in EE with a focus on DSP
and audio analysis seems to think otherwise
09:15 < Eko> yeah, he says those two with the same derision that I read into
your statement ;)
09:15 < jessta> Eko: I use a tiling window manager(dwm), non-tiling windows
managers are really annoying for me now
09:15 < Eko> his comment was that audio on the Mac is either free and sucks
or ridiculously amazing and ridiculously expensive.
09:15 < Nola> so then you're aware perhaps that he is using a bit more
"hacker culture" audio apps
09:15 < Nola> There's some for mac.
09:15 < Nola> Far less though.
09:16 < Eko> there's far less of everything for !windows
09:16 < Eko> that doesn't usually mean the quality is lacking in what's
there
09:16 < Nola> quantity doesnt matter that much,
09:16 < Nola> there's no good sequencer for Mac.
09:16 < Nola> which is #1
09:16 < jessta> Nola: what do you want to use Go for?
09:16 < Surma> Nola: Did you seriously just come in here to say: Everything
but windows sucks if it comes to Audio?!!  This is not even related to Go anymore
09:17 < Nola> jessta, I don't really want to use Go, I got interested in it
while taking breaks after writing too much code and needing to read about
something besides C++ to rest my brain
09:17 < Surma> Nola: And actually: Unix *invented* to make program A work
with program B. It's called a pipe, and windows is much more complicated in that
matter
09:17 < jessta> Nola: start a VM with linux in it
09:18 < Nola> Surma: ok, good, but I'm b eing more specific than that
09:18 < Eko> uh, one of the local cheapo studios around here is using
something like Cubasa, which looks to be a nicely capable sequencer, and it's on
mac
09:18 < Nola> Eko, I don't consider that to be a real sequencer.  Thats a
newb app
09:18 < Surma> Nola: Did you try LMMS?  It's a open-source clone of fruity
loops.  I'm really no expert but it seems that thing is pretty good
09:19 < Eko> hmm, I should probably stop.  I think I''m becoming the poster
boy for http://xkcd.com/386/
09:19 < Surma> Eko: I always keep thinking about that stripe the second I
start participating in a potential flame war
09:20 < Nola> You can see instantly in the LMMS screenshots that it's Fail
09:20 < Eko> so, about that Go problem you were having...
09:22 < Nola> it uses a "mixer"
09:22 < Surma> Well, If I were to judge RMS by his looks
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09:22 < jessta> Surma: nah, it's called linux so we can have linus as our
posterboy
09:23 < Surma> jessta: oh right, same argument tho ^^
09:23 < jessta> although, it's pretty much a hippy too
09:24 < Eko> Billy Jo Gates isn't exactly the sparkling image of Hollywood
hotness though either
09:24 < Eko> I can't find the youtube "she thinks my compiler's sexy"
anymore =(
09:26 < Nola> the frustrating thing about discussing Linux audio with people
is
09:27 < jessta> Eko: http://imgur.com/MjuB0 <-- tell me that's not hot,
lol
09:28 < Nola> say your whole lifetime has been dedicated to something and
you're very opinionated about it and have invented many things in the field and
know it has a great depth of side aspects and nuances
09:28 < Nola> then someone says
09:28 < Nola> Wait look use this program
09:28 < Nola> and they link you to the equivalent of MS Paint for music
09:29 < Nola> you cant really say "facepalm" cause it wont make sense to
somebody who isnt in the same situation
09:29 < Eko> I type "/part"
09:29 < Surma> Nola: Well, do you expect us to have the same expertise as
you allegedly have?
09:29 < Eko> especially when I'm not in ##audio
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09:30 < Eko> all of our reactions are essentially predicated upon the fact
that, because you're having this conversation in #go-nuts, that you are drawing
some parallel between how much !windows audio sucks to how much go sucks
09:31 < Surma> Nola: If you are convinced, Windows is the only way to go
(which strieks me as odd, since most of the producers I know use a mac with Qbase
or something), than why even bother and make us try to convince you otherwise
09:31 < Eko> and we react defensively.
09:31 < Surma> "/part" is probably the best anwest to your question, yeah
09:32 < Nola> I originally was asking about bindings and saying Gtk doesn't
work
09:32 < Nola> then people suggest I use linux
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09:32 < jessta> well, the other suggestion was to make windows gui bindings
09:32 < Eko> since linux is the best free OS on which Go runs, that's a
logical suggestion in #go-nuts
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09:32 < jessta> using linux is the easier option
09:33 < jessta> especially in a VM
09:33 < Eko> and since there are great free emulators (Virtualbox) on which
to run it, it's not even that bad of a suggestion.
09:33 < mpl> Nola: the point is, even if audio sucks on linux, it's not the
problem of the go community.  so it's totally valid for them to suggest you to use
linux on which go is way better supported.
09:33 < Nola> mpl that's quite a realization
09:33 < Nola> good point
09:34 < Surma> Wow, so third time *is* a charme
09:35 < Nola> We were chatting offtopic
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10:33 < wrtp> Nola: i know this is off-topic, but i have been playing around
with a bit of audio stuff in go, so maybe not *entirely*.  what makes a good
sequencer?
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10:38 < Nola> uses a graph for connections, and with a hierarchical /
procedural / functional editor for music that treats patterns, notes, automations
all as equal events in a unified editing system
10:39 < Nola> for example, in the fruity loops clone that was linked
10:39 < Nola> it seems to have 5 different editors
10:40 < Nola> You open one editor to edit one track for one particular
instrument, another editor for automation data that applies only to that track,
another thing for sequences/audio, another thing for automations
10:40 < Nola> that are global
10:40 < Nola> Its like if you made a text editor where the section you write
"{" and "}" in was a separate editor
10:40 < Nola> and you had to open another window to type in Strings
10:41 < Nola> Those sequencers cannot even handle the idea of "instrument X
is the bass voice, instruments y, z, are the inner voices", and we're going to
work on them harmonically
10:42 < Nola> Instead, you edit the bassline, close it, open another
instrument which is part of that chord, edit it, close it
10:42 < Nola> That's a nightmare
10:42 < Nola> Everything is made incoherent from all other things
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10:45 < Nola> I wrote the only good sequencer available today
10:46 < talin> hello
10:46 < talin> is go intended to be a systems programming language among
other things?
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10:47 < jessta> talin: yes, go is a systems programming language
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10:47 < jessta> Nola: got a link to that?
10:47 < talin> jessta: i see.  has anyone attempted to write an operating
system in it?
10:48 < jessta> talin: there is a bare-metal compile target, so it's
certainly possible
10:49 < talin> great.  thank you
10:50 < jessta> talin: planning something?
10:50 < talin> jessta: trying to write one in C at the moment
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10:51 < Nola> jessta I'm feeling to nuts to send the page right now
10:51 < Nola> *too
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10:53 < wrtp> Nola: i was aiming towards that kind of thing.  except that i
hadn't thought about the graphical side of it at all
10:53 < wrtp> Nola: is it important that it's real time?
10:54 < Nola> Yes
10:54 < jessta> Nola: when people claim to have made the best of something I
usually like to verify their claim
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10:54 < Nola> Maybe you're thinking of LiveCoding
10:54 < Nola> if so, the realtime aspect isn't the problem with LiveCoding
10:54 < wrtp> Nola: how do you deal with processing unit latency changes
when the graph changes?
10:55 < Nola> unit?
10:55 < Eko> can we take this discussion out-of-channel unless it's related
to the audio processing using Go?
10:56 < wrtp> you mentioned a graph for connections - presumably the nodes
are processing units of one kind or another?
10:56 < Nola> Yes, they process blocks
10:57 < wrtp> Eko: it is related to audio processing in go
10:58 < wrtp> Eko: because i've written some audio processing stuff in go
and i want to make it better :-)
10:59 < wrtp> i'm kinda thinking LiveCoding.  but more a combination of live
coding and graphical, whereever each makes sense
10:59 < wrtp> *shrug*
10:59 < Nola> Are you a Linux guy?
11:00 < wrtp> no.  plan 9 really.  although i actually use a mac.
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11:03 < Surma> wrtp: What is the best introduction paper on Plan 9?  I
always hear people praise it, but I really can't use it actually
11:06 < jessta> Surma: I have the same problem.  Mostly because it doesn't
support my hardware
11:06 < jessta> but I use plan9port
11:06 < wrtp> the intro papers are a bit dated now, but the first three
papers from http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ are still good.  perhaps start
with "The Use of Name Spaces"
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11:07 < wrtp> jessta: there's also 9vx, which doesn't require h/w support
11:07 < jessta> ah, I forgot about it
11:10 < jessta> I've been using Acme for a while
11:11 < jessta> I haven't worked out how best to manage the windows in it
yet
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11:11 < Surma> jessta: I really don't like acme.  If been goin cold turkey
form mices-like input devices, I don't want to start all over
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11:12 < jessta> Surma: nothing beats the mouse for selecting text
11:12 < jessta> or moving a cursor
11:14 < Surma> still, moving the hand from the keyboard to the mouse and
back, I rather just type line numbers
11:15 < jessta> Surma: you'd be surprised how little time it takes to move
your hand to the mouse and back
11:15 < Eko> vim++
11:19 < mpl> jessta: I'm using it full screen with 3 columns.  the one on
the right being quite narrow and used to hold all the files I'm not working on
right now.
11:21 < mpl> Surma: nemo's book is a good intro
11:21 < mpl> Surma: http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf
11:21 < jessta> my other problem is identifying a certain window, different
coloured taglines would be nice
11:23 < mpl> well usually the ones you're working on are the dirty ones
(little square is dark blue) so that helps narrowing the visual search.
11:23 < wrtp> jessta: i have that problem too.  i tend to accumulate garbage
windows...
11:23 < mpl> but yeah, it requires some organization.
11:23 < wrtp> jessta: Sort is your friend
11:24 < wrtp> i use it on a large (1900x1200) display, but in portrait mode,
2 columns only.
11:24 < mpl> in portrait?  interesting.
11:24 < wrtp> i find that to be an excellent way of using acme.  loads of
vertical space, and enough horizontal for two columns
11:24 < mpl> now that I'm used to 3 columns I have a hard time contenting
myself with only 2.
11:24 < wrtp> it wouldn't work on a smaller display
11:25 < wrtp> what i really want is another 1900x1200 display in portrait
mode, just next to it :-)
11:25 < mpl> I really like just dumping any window that gets in the way in
the third col.
11:25 < wrtp> 2400x1900, yey
11:26 < mpl> wrtp: you know that soul9 did a nice trick where he has an acme
on a small display just to browse the dirs and when he opens a file it opens it in
a second acme on a big screen?
11:26 < wrtp> mpl: i rarely browse dirs in acme
11:26 < mpl> yeah me neither, especially these days when I'm deep in java
packages madness :/
11:27 < mpl> but still, it's an interesting use of plumbing.
11:27 < wrtp> in my current acme, only 4 out of 48 windows are directories
11:28 < wrtp> and i still get 100 lines displayed in the principal file i'm
editing.
11:28 < mpl> nice.
11:28 < wrtp> that's in the default font too
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11:29 < mpl> yeah I use the bold one when I'm tired.
11:30 < wrtp> one thing i have been thinking about recently is applying the
"substitute paths for environment variables in tags" patch.  mostly because of
go's import system, where you get lots of paths like
"/Users/rog/other/go/src/pkg/freetype-go.googlecode.com/hg/freetype/"...
11:32 < wrtp> ...  he says, trying in vain to drag the conversation back on
topic
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11:32 < mpl> oh, I didn't even know there was such a patch.
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11:33 < wrtp> well, there is...  for some version of acme somewhere.
11:33 < jessta> I notice acme will open up .h files for C code, how would
one go about getting it to do the same with go packages?
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11:37 < wrtp> jessta: change the plumbing config file
11:37 < mpl> jessta: you need to configure the plumber for that, not acme
itself.
11:37 < wrtp> jinx
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11:37 < mpl> see plumber(4)
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11:39 < wrtp> god i love interfaces
11:39 < jessta> wrtp: oh, good point
11:40 < wrtp> actually, that was just an off-the-cuff remark inspired by an
8g error message, nothing to do with acme or plumbing...
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11:40 < wrtp> here's the error message:
11:40 < wrtp> bounce.go:299: *canvas.Image is not canvas.MoveableItem
11:40 < wrtp> missing Move(delta draw.Point)
11:40 < wrtp> which is *exactly* what i wanted to know
11:41 < mpl> wrtp: that's what I was talking about:
http://j.9souldier.org/trunk/acme/plumb-acmeduo/
11:41 < mpl> jessta: ^^ that's an example of plumbing configuration, so
relevant for you too.
11:43 < wrtp> mpl: cool
11:43 < wrtp> can you plumb to the left-hand window if you want to?
11:44 < mpl> wrtp: I don't think you can plumb files there directly.  you'd
have to modify his rules.  but I haven't tried it myself.
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11:50 < wrtp> BTW, if anyone wants to play with a little go graphical app
(the start of a graphics library layered onto exp/draw/x11) you could try
goinstall rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/bounce
11:51 < wrtp> actually, pending goinstall changes, you'll actually have to
do: goinstall rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/canvas rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/x11; cd
$GOROOT/rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/bounce; make
11:51 < wrtp> i
11:51 < wrtp> i'd be pleased to know if anyone gets it working
11:52 < wrtp> it's just a little bouncing ball demo
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11:53 < wrtp> except i haven't been bothered to draw a circle yet, so
they're actually little bouncing boxes :-)
11:55 < i__> i got
"go/src/pkg/rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/canvas/objects.go:56: p.In undefined (type
draw.Point has no field In)"
11:57 < wrtp> oh bugger, those exp/draw changes haven't been committed yet
11:58 < wrtp> hold on
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12:05 < wrtp> try ``rm -r $GOROOT/rog-go.googlecode.com'' and doing the
goinstalls again
12:05 < wrtp> that's exactly why i wanted someone else to try it!
12:06 < wrtp> it'd be nice to have a tool that checked whether something you
were pushing depended on any package with local modifications...
12:06 < wrtp> i__: thanks for having a look anyway
12:07 < wrtp> oops that should obviously be: rm -r
$GOROOT/src/pkg/rog-go.googlecode.com
12:07 < wrtp> sorry
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12:11 < i__> now the square balls are bouncing
12:11 < i__> neat
12:12 < wrtp> cool
12:12 < wrtp> what platform are you on
12:12 < wrtp> you can draw lines with button one for them to bounce off
12:12 < wrtp> and you can "throw" them by dragging with button 2
12:13 < wrtp> and you can drag the red text too (but that's just me testing
stuff)
12:13 < i__> 64-bit linux
12:14 < i__> yeah, i figured the line and ball creation stuff
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12:16 < wrtp> does it look reasonably smooth?
12:16 < wrtp> how many balls before it starts juddering
12:17 < wrtp> (each ball is controlled by its own goroutine)
12:17 < i__> if i drag a line over the bouncing ball it gets slow
12:17 < wrtp> i think that's just line dragging in general
12:18 < i__> whoa, i created a very slow ball, dunno how
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12:18 < wrtp> that's because you almost clicked, but dragged just a little
bit...
12:18 < wrtp> if you drag, it calculates the ball speed from your mouse
speed
12:18 < i__> cool
12:19 < i__> it is reasonably slow with 130 balls now
12:19 < wrtp> the nice thing is that with mouse events delivered down a
channel, the code to do that is pretty simple
12:19 < wrtp> (see ballMaker in bounce/bounce.go)
12:20 < i__> i always get confused and press button 3 by mistake
12:21 < wrtp> ah
12:21 < wrtp> yes, that will go
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12:21 < wrtp> it's just convenient for testing
12:22 < i__> sometimes the balls leave a thin little line over the black
ones
12:23 < wrtp> yes
12:23 < wrtp> that's really annoying, and i'm trying to work out a way to
find out where it's happening
12:23 < i__> i've seen something similar while dealing with draw on plan9,
is that normal?
12:23 < wrtp> no
12:23 < wrtp> at least, there's no code in common between the two
12:24 < wrtp> the go stuff *should* be glitch-free
12:24 < wrtp> it's all double buffered
12:24 < wrtp> i'm getting an off by one error somewhere, is my best guess
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12:27 < i__> that was my suspicion under plan9 too, but changing some rect*
functions was not enough
12:27 < i__> also, the ball sometimes pass through the line, specially if
i'm still dragging it
12:27 < wrtp> plan 9 doesn't double buffer, so it's not too surprising there
12:28 < wrtp> the ball passing through the line is a feature :-)
12:28 < i__> haha
12:28 < wrtp> it's because i cheat and don't interlock the line movement and
the ball movement
12:29 < wrtp> it's probably an appropriate place to use an RWMutex
12:30 < wrtp> but i don't wanna
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12:31 < i__> it's just a demo anyway, better keep the code clea
12:31 < i__> n
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12:33 < wrtp> yeah
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12:44 < i__> anyway, i can create about 110 balls without juddering.  with
80 or so balls i already get 99% cpu usage.
12:44 < i__> not so bad considering one goroutine per ball, i think
12:45 < wrtp> not too bad.  it'll be much better when the XShm extension is
implemented, i think
12:46 < wrtp> i should make a slider widget so you can easily control the
length of time the balls are sleeping for and see how much difference it makes
12:48 < i__> that would be an interesting experiment.  maybe just use + or -
keys?
12:48 < wrtp> no keyboard input yet :-)
12:48 < i__> heh
12:48 < wrtp> well...  you've got space
12:48 < wrtp> (which every key generates)
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12:50 < i__> hold space and press left or right mouse button
12:50 < i__> keyboard chording :P
12:51 < wrtp> yeah, i could do that actually
12:52 < wrtp> but i'm more interested in how easy it is to make a slider
12:52 < wrtp> pretty straightforward i hope.
12:52 < wrtp> (only two boxes required....)
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13:15 < MizardX> Why is there no List.PopBack() and List.PopFront() in
container/list?  To achieve the same effect, you have to do: elm := lst.Front();
val := elm.Value; lst.Remove(elm); return val
13:16 < MizardX> You shouldn't need to be aware of the internal
representation.
13:21 < wrtp> that's not the internal representation
13:21 < wrtp> otherwise you wouldn't be able to use it
13:23 < wrtp> they're easy functions to write
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15:35 < wrtp> i__: slider widget now works.
15:36 < wrtp> could've been simpler, but i implemented by embedding a canvas
inside a canvas, just to see if it would work
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15:56 < i__> wrtp: great!  should i just delete and reinstall again?
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15:59 < wrtp> i__: that might be easiest.  or you could just try goinstall
-u
16:00 < wrtp> it's not a very pretty slider
16:00 < wrtp> and i should really have done the time values on a log scale
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16:04 < i__> there is a big impact on cpu usage when i tweak the slider, but
then, the animation doesn't get so smooth
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16:09 < wrtp> yeah, it's a tradeoff, as expected
16:09 < i__> i can get past the 110 balls now at least
16:11 < i__> are you planing to do a complete widget library?
16:11 < wrtp> well it looks like it's heading that way
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16:12 < wrtp> really, i just wanted to get the framework in place
16:12 < wrtp> it's extensible as it is
16:12 < wrtp> all the current widgets could have been written externally to
the canvas package
16:12 < i__> yeah, the slider code is simpler than i expected
16:13 < wrtp> the code in objects.go?
16:13 < wrtp> or the code in bounce.go?
16:13 < i__> in objects.go
16:14 < wrtp> i think some purists might object to the framework because
it's not all channel based - there's a mutual exlusion lock at the heart of
things.
16:14 < wrtp> but i think that reflects the reality of the situation -
there's one graphical window that's shared between all the widgets
16:15 < wrtp> i hope i've put enough comments in that someone else might be
able to do something useful with it already...
16:15 < i__> makes sense, i don't really mind
16:15 < i__> what matters to me is that using a slider is as simple as
reading from a chan
16:16 < wrtp> i'm away for a week from now.  maybe someone will have made
some new stuff for it by the time i come back...  :-)
16:16 < wrtp> i__: yeah.  that slider channel should probably have a buffer
process on it actually
16:17 < wrtp> it'd be nice to play around with transparent widgets a bit.
with a few predrawn transparent images, it'd be quite easy to make something that
looks quite good.
16:18 < wrtp> next main thing to do is resizing
16:18 < wrtp> and then some automatic packing algorithm (maybe tk-like, or
table-based)
16:18 < wrtp> anyway, gotta go
16:18 < wrtp> have fun
16:18 < i__> cya
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16:50 < kimelto> morning!
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18:09 < BrowserUk> Could someone run http://pastie.org/980396 on non-Win and
tell me what they see>
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18:46 < waterwalker> BrowserUk: http://pastie.org/980512
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18:49 < BrowserUk> waterwalker: Many thanks.  That's what I expected to see,
but on Win I get: <1.999999 3.999998 5.999997 8.020996 ...> Something is
baldly boken inside the time package on win :(
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22:03 < WalterMundt> Question: can xml.Unmarshal handle qualified attribute
names such as xml:lang?  How do you name the struct field in those cases?
22:05 < plexdev> http://is.gd/cs7lI by [Russ Cox] in 30 subdirs of go/src/
-- changes &x -> x[0:] for array to slice conversion
22:12 < WalterMundt> also, is there any way for Unmarshal to preserve all
the attributes of an element, e.g.  in a map?
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23:26 < Eko> Is anyone working on a Go compiler written in Go?
23:27 < Eko> the packages in the standard distribution would seem to
indicate that work is being done on that front
23:28 <+iant> Not actively, not as far as I know
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23:31 < Eko> From what I can see, Go seems to be at least advanced enough to
be self-hosting… but I guess not.
23:31 < Eridius> the thread about "Best way to detect multiple writers to a
chan are done writing?" got me thinking, is there any way to do a select on a
slice of chans?
23:31 <+iant> Eridius: no
23:31 < Eridius> damn, that would have made for an elegant solution
23:31 <+iant> Eko: It would certainly be possible to write a compiler in Go,
it just hasn't been done
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23:32 < Eridius> iant: is there any technical reason why Go couldn't be
extended to allow for selecting from a slice of chans?
23:32 <+iant> It's difficult to implement efficiently
23:32 < Eridius> ah, that's a shame
23:32 <+iant> the current code has channels and goroutines pointing to each
other
23:33 <+iant> I agree that it would be nice, and it might be possible to do
it well
23:33 < Eridius> I was hoping one could make a multiplexer that accepted any
number of input chans (of a specified type) and multiplexed all their messages
together onto one output chan
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23:35 <+iant> you can do it with cascading goroutines
23:35 < Eko> Eridius: I actually had the same question about slices of
chans, and the answer I found online (I can't find it now…) said that it is
recommend that you arrange for all writers to write on the same channel
23:35 <+iant> though that obviously causes more copying when there are many
inputs
23:35 < Eridius> Eko: the original poster wanted all the writers to signal
that they were done by closing the channel
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23:36 < Eridius> iant: what, like a multiplexer that combines 2 channels
into 1, and then you just link a bunch together?  That would work, but seems
inefficient
23:36 < Eko> Eridius: I was just about to read that thread, let me finish it
before I repeat what was already said, lol.
23:36 < Eridius> heh
23:37 <+iant> right, but you don't have to use a fanout of 2, you can use,
say, 16, and create new goroutines as needed as you get more input channels
23:37 <+iant> yes, it is less efficient
23:37 < Eridius> iant: oh sure, but you need to support configurations of
fewer than that as well.  Unless you can select from a nil chan with no ill
effects?
23:38 <+iant> yes, you can use a nil channel variable in a select; it will
be ignored
23:38 < Eridius> good to know
23:45 < Eko> wouldn't the go-like solution be something similar to
http://pastie.org/981011 ?
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23:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/csffg by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- golang.org: added Resources page, re-organized left hand panel.
23:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/csffi by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- release.2010-05-27
23:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/csffo by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ --
release.2010-05-27 tag
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--- Log closed Fri May 28 00:00:00 2010