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[~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41 -!- KinOfCain [~KinOfCain@rrcs-64-183-61-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41 -!- KinOfCain [~KinOfCain@rrcs-64-183-61-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:41 -!- aho [~nya@f051016024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION] 18:42 -!- rinzai [~rinzai@host81-157-103-101.range81-157.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:46 -!- Gracenotes [~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 18:56 < emiel_> hm, why is it impossible to reference a string: s := &("a"+"b") ? 18:56 < emiel_> cannot take the address of (node ADDSTR) 18:56 < jessta> because it's not something that exists at runtime 18:57 < Ginto8> because strings are practically immutable slices 18:57 < Ginto8> why would you want a *string? 18:57 < emiel_> it's because the flag package returns it in the first way 18:58 < emiel_> flag.String() does 18:58 < Ginto8> well you can reference a string variable 18:58 < Ginto8> but not a string literal 18:59 < jessta> emiel_: a literal has no address 18:59 < Ginto8> because (IIRC) memory isn't allocated for a string literal until a string variable is created that references it 18:59 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:a8af:5445:7d40:bad1] has joined #go-nuts 18:59 < emiel_> ok, so when i assign "a"+"b" to a variable, i can then reference the var? 18:59 < jessta> eg. s:= &6 etc. doesn't work either 18:59 < Ginto8> emiel_: yep 19:00 < Ginto8> but what situation would you need to create a *string other than flag.String()? 19:00 < jessta> Ginto8: it saves you the indirection of a slice 19:01 < Ginto8> indirection? 19:01 < Ginto8> oh so you can reassign the string 19:01 < Ginto8> ok 19:01 < jessta> nah, a slice has a pointer and a length 19:02 < Ginto8> yes 19:02 < jessta> why make a slice when all you need is the pointer 19:02 < Ginto8> good point 19:02 < Ginto8> but that's only a word difference 19:02 < exch> Ginto8: the protobuf package uses *string and *int for all message fields 19:03 < jessta> Ginto8: you'd also have to get the string back out of the slice if you actually wanted the string 19:03 < exch> bit inconvenient if you ask me, but it's how it works 19:03 < Ginto8> jessta: aren't strings practically slices of allocated string literals? 19:04 < Ginto8> so unless you need to actually change a string that's outside of the function itself, a *string is unnecessary 19:04 < jessta> Ginto8: good point 19:05 < Ginto8> hmm 19:05 < Ginto8> I can't find the protobuf package in the package docs 19:05 < Ginto8> could you point me to it? 19:06 < exch> http://code.google.com/p/goprotobuf/ 19:06 < Ginto8> oh 19:06 < Ginto8> ok that would be why; it isn't standard 19:07 -!- i__ [~none@unaffiliated/i--/x-3618442] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:07 < exch> it is written by the go devs 19:08 < Ginto8> yes, but it isn't part of the standard package lib 19:08 < Ginto8> so it wouldn't be in the standard package docs 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[~Kashia@port-92-200-3-151.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 20:26 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:a8af:5445:7d40:bad1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:28 -!- ExtraSpice [~ExtraSpic@78-62-86-161.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:40 -!- carrus85 [~carrus85@216.83.145.38] has joined #go-nuts 20:48 -!- BiggestAl [~BiggestAl@c-174-48-146-38.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- zuser1 [~nonet@c-76-126-152-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:51 -!- zuser1 [~nonet@c-76-126-152-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 20:53 -!- AlPad [~BiggestAl@c-174-48-146-38.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 20:55 -!- awidegreen [~quassel@62.176.237.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57 -!- yebyen [~yebyen@harrydavis.csh.rit.edu] has joined #go-nuts 21:00 -!- ender2070 [~ender2070@bas5-hamilton14-1279278974.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: carllerche] 21:15 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@208.87.61.203] has joined #go-nuts 21:17 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@208.87.61.203] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.95.75] has joined #go-nuts 21:18 < Project_2501> 21:20 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@208.87.61.203] has joined #go-nuts 21:21 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-138-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:33 < TenOfTen> after installing a new package, say goprotobuf, just import "goprotobuf.googlecode.com/hg/proto" isn't enough to find it. shouldn't the "make install" have placed it right, or do I need to specify some path somewhere? 21:37 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38 < exch> if you've installed goprotobuf using goinstall, it should work 21:38 < exch> unless there was a compile error 21:38 < exch> possibly because you don't have the protocolbuffer libs installed (they are not included in the goprotobuf code) 21:39 < TenOfTen> i used goinstall, and it produces .pb.go files nicely from my .proto (which work in c++ and python too) 21:39 < exch> mm 21:39 < exch> should work then.. 21:39 < TenOfTen> but according to the example, i should import some hg/proto package when using the .pb.go from my main.go 21:40 -!- deso [~deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40 < TenOfTen> well it seems its a search path problem to find the package 21:40 < exch> 'import "goprotobuf.googlecode.com/hg/proto"' works for me 21:40 -!- willvarfar [~will@83.209.92.96] has joined #go-nuts 21:40 < TenOfTen> and you haven't added something prior to your build files or 6g command line? 21:41 < exch> nothing specific to protocolbuffers 21:41 < willvarfar> just watching the google io talk; is the bubbling the errors up - reminds me of NULL or NaN - the go idiom for coping with lack of exceptions? 21:41 < exch> it's a vanilla go install 21:41 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@f051023123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leave the magic to Houdini] 21:41 < TenOfTen> mine too. but im not using the Makefiles provided 21:41 < TenOfTen> for examples 21:42 < exch> the only addition I made to my Makefile is the pb.go rule 21:42 < TenOfTen> oh... maybe it's me acting like i'm drunk 21:42 < TenOfTen> ../src/main.go:7: imported and not used: goprotobuf.googlecode.com/hg/proto 21:42 < exch> :p 21:42 < TenOfTen> gave an error, but it's only in the go world that's seen as en error i guess 21:43 < exch> willvarfar: error handling is done by simply passing os.Error instances up the callchain 21:43 < TenOfTen> thanks anyways for using your time :) 21:44 < exch> willvarfar: This works particularly well in Go because it supports multiple return values in functions. So adding an error as return value is not as much of a hassle as in some other languages 21:44 < willvarfar> that was what I took away from the talk; but when you 'just pass it up the callchain' you end up with "switch ... Error: return ..." in every step to do that passing; exceptions are just like that without the typing 21:45 < exch> you don't have to handle the error in every function. Only in the places where it makes sense. Same with exceptions really. You don't have try/catch blocks in every function 21:46 < willvarfar> but if you don't pass it up, it doesn't get passed up 21:46 < exch> true 21:46 < exch> that's a bit of responsibility you have to keep in mind as a developer I suppose. No excuse for being lazy in go ;) 21:47 < willvarfar> ah but they promised me I'd have to think less :D 21:47 < exch> hehe 21:47 < willvarfar> if everyone is having to put a bit of code in every function to do the bubbling, I'd say they need exceptions :) 21:48 < willvarfar> I've spent a long time making a very go-like framework - concurrent I mean - in various languages to solve various problems 21:48 < willvarfar> this is perhaps the procedural-erlang nirvana I've been searching all these years for 21:48 < kmeyer> I'm a fan of bubbling rather than exceptions 21:48 < kmeyer> it's more like C, but the multiple return arguments makes it so much easier 21:48 < exch> I've been spoiled with exceptions using C# for many years. But in all honesty I find the way Go forces me to keep track of these things a lot clearer. 21:50 < willvarfar> how is out-of-memory handled? 21:50 < willvarfar> I mean, do standard stuff like creating objects sometimes return error objects? 21:50 < kmeyer> no 21:50 < exch> make() and new() return no errors 21:50 < kmeyer> out of memory is intentionally not handled 21:51 < exch> if those fail I expect the app to just panic 21:52 < willvarfar> oh ouch 21:52 < Soultaker> fwiw the lack of proper exception support is something I dislike in Go as well. 21:52 < exch> I vaguely remember there being a discussion about this a while ago. Not sure if it was here in the channel, but there was a very good argument for explicitewly not handling those cases and just killing the program 21:52 < willvarfar> hmm how can you make a server if you can run out of memory but not handle it? 21:52 < Soultaker> I don't feel supporting multiple return values makes a big difference 21:53 < Soultaker> after all, in C you could just pass a pointer to an error value, and then it's even easier to propagate errors. 21:53 < Soultaker> or you could use an out-of-band variable like errno to contain the last error. 21:54 < kmeyer> willvarfar: you can observe memory usage out of band... 21:54 < kmeyer> if you only notice you're out of memory when malloc fails, you're pretty fucked 21:54 < willvarfar> that doesn't sound like a good idea 21:54 < willvarfar> you'd have to know - in advance - how much memory you're going to need 21:54 < willvarfar> and you'd need to check before every allocation 21:54 < willvarfar> it's not at all good encapsulation and compartmentalisation 21:54 < kmeyer> Soultaker: errno-style globals don't work for multiple threads; error pointers means you have to allocate something on the heap for every return 21:55 < kmeyer> willvarfar: as opposed to checking after every allocation? 21:55 < Soultaker> kmeyer: if that doesn't work, how do C do it? ;-) 21:55 < Soultaker> (it's true that you need support for thread local storage) 21:55 < kmeyer> Soultaker: return a struct containing two elements 21:55 < willvarfar> I know that there probably isn't a desktop app that recovers from out of memory 21:55 < willvarfar> but servers sure do 21:55 < willvarfar> at least mine 21:55 < kmeyer> doubt it 21:55 < Soultaker> I think desktop apps handle memory errors at least in some cases. 21:56 < kmeyer> let me find the well-written explanation, willvarfar 21:56 < willvarfar> please 21:56 < Soultaker> I mean, if I have I were programming PhotoShop and I'd need to allocate a large buffer to hold the image data, I would certainly want to handle out of memory gracefully. 21:56 < willvarfar> yeap 21:56 < willvarfar> but you might have enough memory for that, but not enough for something otherwise small after 21:56 < TenOfTen> thats weird, go-bundled emacs go-mode prefers tabs instead of spaces 21:57 < Soultaker> that's definitely possible, but a lot less likely. 21:57 < Soultaker> I think you can catch allocation errors in Go though (right?) 21:57 < willvarfar> and besides, on 32-bits or less, you can have address exhaustion from fragmentation, which isn't the same 21:57 < Soultaker> so you could build your own malloc-style function that returns null on failure. 21:58 < Soultaker> willvarfar: in a managed memory language, compaction should be able to take care of that. 21:58 < kmeyer> hrm, I can't find the article. 21:58 < willvarfar> aha true enough, forgot the gc 21:58 < kmeyer> but basically, malloc returning NULL doesn't even happen by default on modern linux, and even if it does, it's a sign of catastrophic failure. 21:58 < Soultaker> but you can still run out of memory space before you run out of memory of course. 21:58 < willvarfar> true 21:58 < kmeyer> if you're mallocing in multiple places you have lots of (usually) poorly tested failure paths 21:59 < willvarfar> I run my servers under valgrind for 90% of development 21:59 < willvarfar> I'm that kind of idiot 21:59 < willvarfar> but generally, with malloc being reservation not commit, hmm 21:59 < kmeyer> Soultaker: re: the photoshop example: you can ask the OS if you have enough space before trying the malloc 22:00 < Soultaker> kmeyer: isn't that a race condition then? 22:00 < kmeyer> and also: re: 'I think you can catch allocation errors in Go' >> No, that's not the case. 22:00 < Soultaker> maybe Python has spoiled me, but I like the approach of just trying to do what you want to do, and handling errors as they come up. 22:00 < kmeyer> sure it's a race condition, but if something eats 100M of memory before you can allocate it and that means you don't have room, that's probably not a common case :P 22:00 < Soultaker> the exception catching stuff doesn't work for memory allocation failures? 22:01 < kmeyer> nope 22:01 < kmeyer> they don't raise exceptions 22:01 < Soultaker> ah ok. didn't know that/ 22:02 < pizza_> so a server has to rigidly limit itself to known-good amounts of every sort of allocatable resource, lest a single user too many exhaust memory, crash the server and disconnect all other users? 22:03 < willvarfar> but it doesn't have a system view of a resource 22:03 < willvarfar> it can ask for a snapshot of, say, free ram, and its a race 22:04 < Soultaker> pizza_: that probably applies to servers written in any language. 22:04 < Soultaker> have a look at the Apache source code. hard limits all over the place. 22:04 * willvarfar would want a runtime where malloc commited and failures were reported :) 22:04 < pizza_> Soultaker: well if you can check memory allocation failure you could choose to disallow a new connection but continue to serve existing ones 22:04 < Soultaker> you can definitely get Linux to do that. 22:04 < Soultaker> and FreeBSD too, if memory serves. 22:04 < willvarfar> symbian works that way 22:05 < willvarfar> dealing with out of memory is routine 22:05 < Soultaker> pizza_: if you have a constant amount of memory per client, true, but then only if there are no other applications on the server. 22:05 < Soultaker> I think the better solution is to let the administrator set the limits, rather than assume that you can use up all the memory in the system. 22:05 < pizza_> the strategy seems appropriate in a telecom sort of always-on dedicated service, but not so good in a mixed, fluid environment 22:10 < willvarfar> so exceptions could be implemented as auto-passing-upwards of error return values by a compiler? 22:12 -!- mbarkhau [~koloss@dslb-084-059-163-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12 < Soultaker> willvarfar: are you still talking about Go, or in general? 22:13 < willvarfar> well go 22:13 < willvarfar> I mean, if there's this exception-like idiom that needs typing in pretty much every function... 22:14 < Soultaker> but there is already "real" exception handling in the form of panic()/recover() 22:15 < Soultaker> it's jus that it's not used by library functions. 22:15 < Soultaker> +t 22:15 < exch> willvarfar: http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Handling_panics 22:19 -!- bjarneh [~bjarneh@135.80-203-19.nextgentel.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:19 < willvarfar> thx; that looks mightily like exceptions by another name; is that a fair summary? 22:20 < exch> it works in a similar enough way 22:20 < willvarfar> and deferring reminds me of the cleanupstack in symbian, which is a nice thing 22:20 < exch> Not sure if that you should just panic() left and right though 22:20 -!- vdrab [~vdrab@cap001-170.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 22:20 < exch> *that +means 22:20 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g230102069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 22:22 < exch> but, if failed malloc() calls do not panic, but simply segfault, this won't help you much in those cases 22:22 -!- boscop [~boscop@g230088099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22 < willvarfar> hmm no 22:23 < willvarfar> because malloc is reservation not commit, right 22:23 < Soultaker> again, this depends on the OS. 22:24 < Soultaker> you can do sysctl vm.overcommit_memory = 0 to disable that. 22:24 < Soultaker> (on Linux) 22:24 < Soultaker> and some other way on other OS es. 22:25 < willvarfar> yes I know I do 22:25 < willvarfar> but then go would have to panic or whatever 22:25 < Soultaker> or erm, 0 is not the right value I guess, but ok. 22:25 < Soultaker> yes, true. 22:30 -!- Shyde [~shyde@HSI-KBW-078-043-070-132.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32 -!- carrus85 [~carrus85@216.83.145.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.95.75] has quit [Quit: E se abbasso questa leva che succ...] 22:50 -!- bjarneh [~bjarneh@135.80-203-19.nextgentel.com] has left #go-nuts [] 22:51 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g230102069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51 -!- willvarfar [~will@83.209.92.96] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:00 < Ginto8> hey folks I'm wondering how I would set up a client-server communication with netchan, can anyone help? 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