--- Log opened Sun Jun 06 00:00:01 2010
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15:19 < plexdev> http://is.gd/cELWI by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/pkg/http/
-- http: fix erroneous comment
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18:56 < emiel_> hm, why is it impossible to reference a string: s :=
&("a"+"b") ?
18:56 < emiel_> cannot take the address of (node ADDSTR)
18:56 < jessta> because it's not something that exists at runtime
18:57 < Ginto8> because strings are practically immutable slices
18:57 < Ginto8> why would you want a *string?
18:57 < emiel_> it's because the flag package returns it in the first way
18:58 < emiel_> flag.String() does
18:58 < Ginto8> well you can reference a string variable
18:58 < Ginto8> but not a string literal
18:59 < jessta> emiel_: a literal has no address
18:59 < Ginto8> because (IIRC) memory isn't allocated for a string literal
until a string variable is created that references it
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18:59 < emiel_> ok, so when i assign "a"+"b" to a variable, i can then
reference the var?
18:59 < jessta> eg.  s:= &6 etc.  doesn't work either
18:59 < Ginto8> emiel_: yep
19:00 < Ginto8> but what situation would you need to create a *string other
than flag.String()?
19:00 < jessta> Ginto8: it saves you the indirection of a slice
19:01 < Ginto8> indirection?
19:01 < Ginto8> oh so you can reassign the string
19:01 < Ginto8> ok
19:01 < jessta> nah, a slice has a pointer and a length
19:02 < Ginto8> yes
19:02 < jessta> why make a slice when all you need is the pointer
19:02 < Ginto8> good point
19:02 < Ginto8> but that's only a word difference
19:02 < exch> Ginto8: the protobuf package uses *string and *int for all
message fields
19:03 < jessta> Ginto8: you'd also have to get the string back out of the
slice if you actually wanted the string
19:03 < exch> bit inconvenient if you ask me, but it's how it works
19:03 < Ginto8> jessta: aren't strings practically slices of allocated
string literals?
19:04 < Ginto8> so unless you need to actually change a string that's
outside of the function itself, a *string is unnecessary
19:04 < jessta> Ginto8: good point
19:05 < Ginto8> hmm
19:05 < Ginto8> I can't find the protobuf package in the package docs
19:05 < Ginto8> could you point me to it?
19:06 < exch> http://code.google.com/p/goprotobuf/
19:06 < Ginto8> oh
19:06 < Ginto8> ok that would be why; it isn't standard
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19:07 < exch> it is written by the go devs
19:08 < Ginto8> yes, but it isn't part of the standard package lib
19:08 < Ginto8> so it wouldn't be in the standard package docs
19:08 < exch> yea
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21:18 < Project_2501>
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21:33 < TenOfTen> after installing a new package, say goprotobuf, just
import "goprotobuf.googlecode.com/hg/proto" isn't enough to find it.  shouldn't
the "make install" have placed it right, or do I need to specify some path
somewhere?
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21:38 < exch> if you've installed goprotobuf using goinstall, it should work
21:38 < exch> unless there was a compile error
21:38 < exch> possibly because you don't have the protocolbuffer libs
installed (they are not included in the goprotobuf code)
21:39 < TenOfTen> i used goinstall, and it produces .pb.go files nicely from
my .proto (which work in c++ and python too)
21:39 < exch> mm
21:39 < exch> should work then..
21:39 < TenOfTen> but according to the example, i should import some
hg/proto package when using the .pb.go from my main.go
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21:40 < TenOfTen> well it seems its a search path problem to find the
package
21:40 < exch> 'import "goprotobuf.googlecode.com/hg/proto"' works for me
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21:40 < TenOfTen> and you haven't added something prior to your build files
or 6g command line?
21:41 < exch> nothing specific to protocolbuffers
21:41 < willvarfar> just watching the google io talk; is the bubbling the
errors up - reminds me of NULL or NaN - the go idiom for coping with lack of
exceptions?
21:41 < exch> it's a vanilla go install
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21:41 < TenOfTen> mine too.  but im not using the Makefiles provided
21:41 < TenOfTen> for examples
21:42 < exch> the only addition I made to my Makefile is the pb.go rule
21:42 < TenOfTen> oh...  maybe it's me acting like i'm drunk
21:42 < TenOfTen> ../src/main.go:7: imported and not used:
goprotobuf.googlecode.com/hg/proto
21:42 < exch> :p
21:42 < TenOfTen> gave an error, but it's only in the go world that's seen
as en error i guess
21:43 < exch> willvarfar: error handling is done by simply passing os.Error
instances up the callchain
21:43 < TenOfTen> thanks anyways for using your time :)
21:44 < exch> willvarfar: This works particularly well in Go because it
supports multiple return values in functions.  So adding an error as return value
is not as much of a hassle as in some other languages
21:44 < willvarfar> that was what I took away from the talk; but when you
'just pass it up the callchain' you end up with "switch ...  Error: return ..." in
every step to do that passing; exceptions are just like that without the typing
21:45 < exch> you don't have to handle the error in every function.  Only in
the places where it makes sense.  Same with exceptions really.  You don't have
try/catch blocks in every function
21:46 < willvarfar> but if you don't pass it up, it doesn't get passed up
21:46 < exch> true
21:46 < exch> that's a bit of responsibility you have to keep in mind as a
developer I suppose.  No excuse for being lazy in go ;)
21:47 < willvarfar> ah but they promised me I'd have to think less :D
21:47 < exch> hehe
21:47 < willvarfar> if everyone is having to put a bit of code in every
function to do the bubbling, I'd say they need exceptions :)
21:48 < willvarfar> I've spent a long time making a very go-like framework -
concurrent I mean - in various languages to solve various problems
21:48 < willvarfar> this is perhaps the procedural-erlang nirvana I've been
searching all these years for
21:48 < kmeyer> I'm a fan of bubbling rather than exceptions
21:48 < kmeyer> it's more like C, but the multiple return arguments makes it
so much easier
21:48 < exch> I've been spoiled with exceptions using C# for many years.
But in all honesty I find the way Go forces me to keep track of these things a lot
clearer.
21:50 < willvarfar> how is out-of-memory handled?
21:50 < willvarfar> I mean, do standard stuff like creating objects
sometimes return error objects?
21:50 < kmeyer> no
21:50 < exch> make() and new() return no errors
21:50 < kmeyer> out of memory is intentionally not handled
21:51 < exch> if those fail I expect the app to just panic
21:52 < willvarfar> oh ouch
21:52 < Soultaker> fwiw the lack of proper exception support is something I
dislike in Go as well.
21:52 < exch> I vaguely remember there being a discussion about this a while
ago.  Not sure if it was here in the channel, but there was a very good argument
for explicitewly not handling those cases and just killing the program
21:52 < willvarfar> hmm how can you make a server if you can run out of
memory but not handle it?
21:52 < Soultaker> I don't feel supporting multiple return values makes a
big difference
21:53 < Soultaker> after all, in C you could just pass a pointer to an error
value, and then it's even easier to propagate errors.
21:53 < Soultaker> or you could use an out-of-band variable like errno to
contain the last error.
21:54 < kmeyer> willvarfar: you can observe memory usage out of band...
21:54 < kmeyer> if you only notice you're out of memory when malloc fails,
you're pretty fucked
21:54 < willvarfar> that doesn't sound like a good idea
21:54 < willvarfar> you'd have to know - in advance - how much memory you're
going to need
21:54 < willvarfar> and you'd need to check before every allocation
21:54 < willvarfar> it's not at all good encapsulation and
compartmentalisation
21:54 < kmeyer> Soultaker: errno-style globals don't work for multiple
threads; error pointers means you have to allocate something on the heap for every
return
21:55 < kmeyer> willvarfar: as opposed to checking after every allocation?
21:55 < Soultaker> kmeyer: if that doesn't work, how do C do it?  ;-)
21:55 < Soultaker> (it's true that you need support for thread local
storage)
21:55 < kmeyer> Soultaker: return a struct containing two elements
21:55 < willvarfar> I know that there probably isn't a desktop app that
recovers from out of memory
21:55 < willvarfar> but servers sure do
21:55 < willvarfar> at least mine
21:55 < kmeyer> doubt it
21:55 < Soultaker> I think desktop apps handle memory errors at least in
some cases.
21:56 < kmeyer> let me find the well-written explanation, willvarfar
21:56 < willvarfar> please
21:56 < Soultaker> I mean, if I have I were programming PhotoShop and I'd
need to allocate a large buffer to hold the image data, I would certainly want to
handle out of memory gracefully.
21:56 < willvarfar> yeap
21:56 < willvarfar> but you might have enough memory for that, but not
enough for something otherwise small after
21:56 < TenOfTen> thats weird, go-bundled emacs go-mode prefers tabs instead
of spaces
21:57 < Soultaker> that's definitely possible, but a lot less likely.
21:57 < Soultaker> I think you can catch allocation errors in Go though
(right?)
21:57 < willvarfar> and besides, on 32-bits or less, you can have address
exhaustion from fragmentation, which isn't the same
21:57 < Soultaker> so you could build your own malloc-style function that
returns null on failure.
21:58 < Soultaker> willvarfar: in a managed memory language, compaction
should be able to take care of that.
21:58 < kmeyer> hrm, I can't find the article.
21:58 < willvarfar> aha true enough, forgot the gc
21:58 < kmeyer> but basically, malloc returning NULL doesn't even happen by
default on modern linux, and even if it does, it's a sign of catastrophic failure.
21:58 < Soultaker> but you can still run out of memory space before you run
out of memory of course.
21:58 < willvarfar> true
21:58 < kmeyer> if you're mallocing in multiple places you have lots of
(usually) poorly tested failure paths
21:59 < willvarfar> I run my servers under valgrind for 90% of development
21:59 < willvarfar> I'm that kind of idiot
21:59 < willvarfar> but generally, with malloc being reservation not commit,
hmm
21:59 < kmeyer> Soultaker: re: the photoshop example: you can ask the OS if
you have enough space before trying the malloc
22:00 < Soultaker> kmeyer: isn't that a race condition then?
22:00 < kmeyer> and also: re: 'I think you can catch allocation errors in
Go' >> No, that's not the case.
22:00 < Soultaker> maybe Python has spoiled me, but I like the approach of
just trying to do what you want to do, and handling errors as they come up.
22:00 < kmeyer> sure it's a race condition, but if something eats 100M of
memory before you can allocate it and that means you don't have room, that's
probably not a common case :P
22:00 < Soultaker> the exception catching stuff doesn't work for memory
allocation failures?
22:01 < kmeyer> nope
22:01 < kmeyer> they don't raise exceptions
22:01 < Soultaker> ah ok.  didn't know that/
22:02 < pizza_> so a server has to rigidly limit itself to known-good
amounts of every sort of allocatable resource, lest a single user too many exhaust
memory, crash the server and disconnect all other users?
22:03 < willvarfar> but it doesn't have a system view of a resource
22:03 < willvarfar> it can ask for a snapshot of, say, free ram, and its a
race
22:04 < Soultaker> pizza_: that probably applies to servers written in any
language.
22:04 < Soultaker> have a look at the Apache source code.  hard limits all
over the place.
22:04 * willvarfar would want a runtime where malloc commited and failures were
reported :)
22:04 < pizza_> Soultaker: well if you can check memory allocation failure
you could choose to disallow a new connection but continue to serve existing ones
22:04 < Soultaker> you can definitely get Linux to do that.
22:04 < Soultaker> and FreeBSD too, if memory serves.
22:04 < willvarfar> symbian works that way
22:05 < willvarfar> dealing with out of memory is routine
22:05 < Soultaker> pizza_: if you have a constant amount of memory per
client, true, but then only if there are no other applications on the server.
22:05 < Soultaker> I think the better solution is to let the administrator
set the limits, rather than assume that you can use up all the memory in the
system.
22:05 < pizza_> the strategy seems appropriate in a telecom sort of
always-on dedicated service, but not so good in a mixed, fluid environment
22:10 < willvarfar> so exceptions could be implemented as
auto-passing-upwards of error return values by a compiler?
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22:12 < Soultaker> willvarfar: are you still talking about Go, or in
general?
22:13 < willvarfar> well go
22:13 < willvarfar> I mean, if there's this exception-like idiom that needs
typing in pretty much every function...
22:14 < Soultaker> but there is already "real" exception handling in the
form of panic()/recover()
22:15 < Soultaker> it's jus that it's not used by library functions.
22:15 < Soultaker> +t
22:15 < exch> willvarfar: http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Handling_panics
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22:19 < willvarfar> thx; that looks mightily like exceptions by another
name; is that a fair summary?
22:20 < exch> it works in a similar enough way
22:20 < willvarfar> and deferring reminds me of the cleanupstack in symbian,
which is a nice thing
22:20 < exch> Not sure if that you should just panic() left and right though
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22:20 < exch> *that +means
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22:22 < exch> but, if failed malloc() calls do not panic, but simply
segfault, this won't help you much in those cases
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22:22 < willvarfar> hmm no
22:23 < willvarfar> because malloc is reservation not commit, right
22:23 < Soultaker> again, this depends on the OS.
22:24 < Soultaker> you can do sysctl vm.overcommit_memory = 0 to disable
that.
22:24 < Soultaker> (on Linux)
22:24 < Soultaker> and some other way on other OS es.
22:25 < willvarfar> yes I know I do
22:25 < willvarfar> but then go would have to panic or whatever
22:25 < Soultaker> or erm, 0 is not the right value I guess, but ok.
22:25 < Soultaker> yes, true.
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communication with netchan, can anyone help?
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--- Log closed Mon Jun 07 00:00:01 2010