--- Log opened Thu Jun 24 00:00:12 2010
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02:29 < Ginto8> using utf8.EncodeRune on a slice with a length of 1 makes it
so that it will only encode it if it will fit in a byte right?
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02:46 < jessta> Ginto8: not really, if it's bigger than a byte then you'll
go out of bounds on the slice
02:46 < jessta> Ginto8: the code is pretty easy to read
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02:59 < Ginto8> hmm though is there any major disadvantage to restricting
runes to a single byte?
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03:03 < jessta> Ginto8: you can only use ascii characters
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03:03 < Ginto8> hmm ok then
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03:04 < Ginto8> would there be any advantage to just sending along raw ints
containing the unicode char?
03:05 < Ginto8> sry these are design questions I should be figuring out for
myself
03:05 < Ginto8> sorry
03:06 < jessta> Ginto8: what are you trying to do?
03:06 < Ginto8> I'm using it for text input
03:06 < Ginto8> SDL's input provides raw unicoe chars
03:06 < Ginto8> unicode*
03:08 < jessta> where are you sending them?
03:08 < Ginto8> well now that I think about it it can be sent just about
anywhere so ints would probly be of the most use
03:08 < Ginto8> and the user of my lib can encode it however the hell they
want =P
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04:05 < jer> i'm iterating over one vector using Do(), and then inside that
closure, doing the same thing (iterating over another vector).  both of these
vectors are properties of the items held within, and i need to grab each element
inside, and store it, so on the next iteration, i can finish the bookkeeping work
on each element by linking them together in a very specific way
04:05 < jer> this involves with removing sentinel elements, and Do()'s docs
say behaviour is unspecified if you change the vector
04:05 < jer> any thoughts as to alternatives, preferably with specified
behaviour =]
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05:03 < nsf> hm..  that's very interesting
05:03 < nsf> I've removed custom image loader in my gotris and replaced it
with image/png
05:04 < nsf> and now for some reason Go starts one more thread after some
time playing tetris
05:04 < nsf> causing OpenGL to crash because of that (I didn't use
runtime.LockOSThread() before)
05:05 < nsf> it's strange because I've changed only loading code and the app
crashes after few minutes of playing
05:06 < nsf> if I add runtime.LockOSThread() it don't of course, but shows
that new thread is being spawn at that time
05:06 < nsf> very weird
05:07 < nsf> and the weirdes thing that it crushes exactly on the same line
each time, which apparently causes new goroutine to show up
05:07 < nsf> :D
05:09 < nsf> And the only change in that function seems to be:
05:09 < nsf> - gl.BindTexture(gl.TEXTURE_2D, gl.GLuint(self.Texture.Id))
05:09 < nsf> + gl.BindTexture(gl.TEXTURE_2D, self.Texture)
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05:14 < nsf> apparently this other goroutine is used to run finalizer
05:14 < nsf> but why
05:14 < nsf> hm..
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05:32 < nsf> haha, here we go
05:32 < nsf> it's because image/png uses zlib which uses io.Pipe
05:32 < nsf> which sets finalizer
05:34 < nsf> oh..  and even png itself uses io.Pipe
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06:25 < uriel> Qtvali is back!  oh dear...
06:25 < uriel> somebody should really get this guy a blog
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07:18 * nsf hates garbage collectors
07:18 < nsf> :(
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08:42 < jessta> nsf: what's wrong with garbage collectors?
08:42 < nsf> they are unpredictable :)
08:50 < jessta> it really depends, but why do you need to predict them?
08:52 < nsf> probably I don't
08:53 < nsf> it depends
08:53 < nsf> :)
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08:53 < nsf> I just don't like the fact that my simple app can eat up to 100
megs of memory
08:53 < nsf> while it uses less than 10 of them
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08:55 < jessta> nsf: you can work around some of that
08:55 < jessta> plus, the GC will get better
08:55 < nsf> but if it requires extra work why do I need GC
08:56 < jessta> because concurrent memory management is really hard
08:57 < nsf> also I've heard a lot of stories about big 24/7 servers running
java
08:57 < nsf> that leaks memory constantly :)
08:57 < nsf> if it's 10 megs per hour, you're lucky
08:57 < jessta> yep, actually they are leaking referneces
08:57 < nsf> sometimes it's 100 and more
08:58 < nsf> with that kind of behaviour I can't be happy about GC as a
solution to a problem
08:58 < jessta> the GC can't know that you don't actually need the things
your still apparently using
08:59 < jessta> it's your job to make sure you drop references to things you
don't need so they GC can clear them up
08:59 < nsf> it won't help I bet
08:59 < nsf> in some cases it will leak memory anyway
09:00 < jessta> but if you code with the GC in mind, then when the GC gets
better, you're memory management gets better too
09:00 < nsf> or not
09:00 < nsf> I've heard a lot of stories about that too
09:00 < jessta> these java programs without a GC and using malloc/free would
have the same problems
09:00 < jessta> because they programmers are the problem
09:01 < nsf> well, malloc and free forces to dedicate a lot of time to
memory management problem
09:01 < mpl> nsf: averaged on all programmers, there's probably more leaks
due to coders to freeing their mem properly in non-gc languages than mem leaked in
gc languages ;)
09:01 < mpl> *to coders not freeing
09:01 < jessta> indeed
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09:01 < nsf> mpl: it's easy to debug memory leaks in a non-gc langauge
09:01 < nsf> with concurrency maybe it will be harder
09:01 < jessta> if a programmer doesn't understnad memory management then a
GC won't save them
09:01 < nsf> but not that hard
09:02 < nsf> but in the GC you can't even debug it properly
09:02 < mpl> nsf: it may not be that hard, but it still takes some precious
time and you may have leaks that are not detected right away so the product is
shipped and you find out about it later.
09:02 < nsf> because apparently you don't know when and what happens with
memory
09:03 < jessta> nsf: memory management in a concurrent enviornment is hell
09:04 < mpl> you don't need to if it's done well enough.  which will
hopefully be the case in Go someday :)
09:04 < nsf> jessta: I don't think so
09:04 < jessta> because then you need a way to know which 'thread' should
free which memory
09:04 < jessta> and you need agreement between all the code involved
09:04 < nsf> jessta: that's a good thing anyway, you should know who owns
what
09:05 < jessta> you should, but how do you??
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09:05 < nsf> with proper design
09:05 < nsf> it takes time, but well ignoring problems (like in the GC case)
isn't helping much
09:05 < jessta> you always end up with disagreements between bits of code
09:06 < mpl> jessta: agreed, I still have leaks in my plan 9 bittorrent
client which is quite heavily concurrent because I let the issue unfixed for too
long and now it's quite the hell to know where to fix it with all the coroutines
:/
09:06 < jessta> it's hard enough in C with one 'thread'
09:06 < nsf> with one thread it's easy :)
09:07 < jessta> half the function think they should be the ones freeing the
memeory and the other half think the caller should do it
09:07 < mpl> indeed
09:07 < mpl> that's always my dilemna
09:08 < mpl> same with error management
09:08 < nsf> jessta: if you have that kind of mess in a code, it's your
problem..  basically it means you didn't solve the problem
09:08 < mpl> I'm so happy with how it's done in go
09:08 < jessta> and then there are times when you pass something to a
function that expects you to free it way later
09:08 < jessta> nsf:ever used GTK?
09:09 < nsf> GTK and all it's stack (glib, pango, cairo) has horrible memory
management design
09:09 < jessta> yep, it does
09:09 < nsf> they actually think it's ok to allocate a bunch of memory and
never free it
09:09 < jessta> because it's hard to get right
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09:09 < nsf> just because technically it's not a leak
09:09 < jessta> and most programmers aren't any better
09:10 < nsf> also there are of course not so smart people behind it
sometimes
09:10 < nsf> pango for example
09:10 < nsf> I've fixed very horrible bugs in it's layout code (project
called hurfbuzz)
09:11 < nsf> it was resulting in eating a lot of memory for some types of
fonts (incl.  DejaVu for example)
09:11 < nsf> the patched version results now in 30% less memory usage
overall on a typical desktop setup
09:11 < nsf> :D
09:11 < jessta> GC means that you can fix a lot of problems later
09:11 < nsf> no you can't
09:12 < jessta> if memory is a real issue you can write a custom GC
09:12 < nsf> the only way to fix those problems is not making them
09:13 < rsaarelm> I had a fun time making SDL_TTF work with Go. I load font
data in a memory buffer, give the buffer to the font library to initialize font,
and tested it.  I then noticed that letters didn't render if I waited more than
~10 seconds after initializing the font until rendering that letter for the first
time.
09:13 < jessta> you also get more control of the memory management of code
you didn't write
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09:13 < nsf> jessta: do you have any control using GC at all?
09:14 < rsaarelm> Turns out the TTF library wasn't making a copy of the
buffer I gave it from Go, but instead was expecting the buffer to not get garbage
collected until the actual instantiated font struct did.  Yay.
09:14 < jessta> nsf: yes, you get full control
09:14 < nsf> rsaarelm: don't use SDL_TTF :) check out how I do fonts in
gotris :D
09:15 < nsf> well, I use bitmap fonts
09:15 < jessta> nsf: you can do things like delaying free memory until a non
time sensitive time in the code
09:15 < nsf> but I think it's even better than using unknown weird library
that does magic caching behind the scene
09:16 < rsaarelm> Bitmap fonts would be extra effort.
09:16 < nsf> rsaarelm: all fonts are bitmap fonts :)
09:16 < jessta> eg.  if you call something in a tight loop and it frees
something with every call, you can delay that until after the full loop has
completed
09:16 < nsf> you just don't know it
09:16 < rsaarelm> Yes.  Me not needing to know it is less effort.
09:16 < nsf> I bet even freetype does caching of some sort
09:17 < nsf> jessta: the problem that you can't tell GC to dealloc memory
09:17 < nsf> it will dealloc if it can
09:17 < nsf> otherwise it won't
09:17 < nsf> and if it can't do anything about your memory..  that's it
09:17 < nsf> hack it or leave it
09:17 < rsaarelm> Of course bitmap fonts would make the game have less
dependencies, so there's that.
09:18 < jessta> nsf: you can't dealloc memory in your Go code, but you can
in the GC
09:19 < nsf> jessta: but the GC is here, and you can't change its code
09:19 < jessta> yes!  you can!
09:19 < nsf> nope
09:19 < jessta> the source code is right there
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09:19 < nsf> I mean you will introduce more bugs to it
09:20 < nsf> and happy debugging :)
09:20 < jessta> it's far easier than trying to teach programmers how to do
proper memory management
09:20 < nsf> I think the GC is just a wrong solution to a problem
09:21 < nsf> jessta: it doesn't mean that you shouldn't teach programmers
09:21 < jessta> of course you should
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09:21 < nsf> therefore the GC is a wrong temporary solution
09:21 < jessta> and teach programmers to nil out pointers they are no longer
using is important
09:22 < nsf> to bad skilled programmers
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09:22 < jessta> which is pretty much like calling free()
09:22 < jessta> except you get better control over it
09:22 < nsf> you don't have any control on GC, I don't believe you
09:22 < nsf> :)
09:23 < mpl> nsf: you don't have any control over the education of
programmers all over the world, you have control over your GC.
09:23 < nsf> mpl: true
09:23 < nsf> as I said..  temporary solution to a global problem
09:23 < jessta> nsf: your unwillingness to believe it doesn't make it any
less true
09:24 < nsf> jessta: your words don't make it true either
09:24 < jessta> but logic does
09:24 < nsf> nope
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09:25 < jessta> lol, alright then.
09:25 < nsf> :)
09:26 < jessta> I like the idea of future options of things like compacting
GC
09:26 < jessta> or running the GC in a seperate thread
09:27 < nsf> I believe there will be a language in future that helps a lot
with resource managing problem and it will not contain GC at all :)
09:27 < jessta> or automatically inserting frees at compile time for things
known to be predictable
09:28 < jessta> nsf: you ever written anything in the language called
"clean"?
09:28 < nsf> nope
09:28 < jessta> it's a lot like haskell
09:28 < nsf> I don't like haske;;
09:28 < nsf> haskell*
09:28 < jessta> in clean things go out of scope when they are passed to a
function
09:29 < jessta> so you can't reference a variable after you've pass it to a
function
09:29 < nsf> I'm sure it's not even close to the langauge I'm talking about
:)
09:29 < mpl> uh.  that must be hard to program with thath state of mind.
09:29 < jessta> the only way to get a refernece to it again is to get it
returned back from the function
09:29 < jessta> so every object always has an owner
09:30 < jessta> so there is always a known place where it can be freed
09:30 < mpl> that's interesting but it seems more limiting than it is
helping in most cases....
09:30 < jessta> yes, it's limiting.  But that's how you do automatic memory
management without a GC
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09:31 < mpl> yeah, neat concept.
09:32 < jessta> clean is haskell without the monads
09:32 < jessta> the syntax is almost exactly the same
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09:34 < jessta> the concept would work really nicely with channels
09:35 < jessta> send something over a channel and can't do anything with it
until you get it back again
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11:05 < nimmen> which ide you use for go coding?
11:05 < nsf> no ide, vim
11:05 < Ginto8> nimmen, IDK about ides, I think eclips and xcode have them
11:05 < Ginto8> have plugins*
11:05 < Ginto8> I use gedit or vim
11:06 < nimmen> ok thanks
11:07 < nimmen> i tried one eclipse plugin, but it supports only core
functions (no library functions), guess will have to wait
11:08 < Ginto8> nimmen, just using a text editor should be fine.  Go has a
really easy way to set up makefiles so you shouldn't really experience any
difficulty
11:09 < nsf> Ginto8: there are people addicted to autocompletion :) (mostly
java, C# and C++ people)
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11:10 < nsf> I guess that's the main reason why they use IDE instead of an
editor
11:10 < Ginto8> nsf, I understand.  I love autocompletion, but I can easily
make use without it
11:10 < Ginto8> make do*
11:11 < wrtp> i use acme
11:11 < nsf> I like vim's text autocompletion, because it saves typing but
still requires to remember everything (keeps memory in a good shape :D)
11:11 < wrtp> but the learning curve is quite steep...
11:11 < jessta> wrtp: acme?
11:11 < jessta> the learning curve is't sttep
11:12 < Ginto8> wrtp, out of curiosity, does it have syntax highlighting?
11:12 < wrtp> nope
11:12 < Ginto8> I'm not addicted to autocomplete but I am to syntax
highlighting
11:12 < wrtp> it's pretty bare bones
11:12 < wrtp> but very powerful
11:12 < Ginto8> so it's like vi
11:12 < Ginto8> in a way
11:12 < wrtp> better than vi
11:12 < nsf> syntax highlighting, yes..  can't live without it
11:12 < wrtp> IMGO
11:13 < wrtp> s/G/H/
11:13 < wrtp> depends on the syntax i guess.  i've never missed it.
11:13 < Ginto8> wrtp, I'm intrigued.  I'll have to try it out sometime
11:13 < nsf> I tried acme
11:13 < wrtp> it's worth a go.  but don't bring any preconceptions with you
when you do.
11:14 < nsf> didn't quite get the point
11:15 < wrtp> the point is that you can edit & process text really
conveniently.  it's particularly powerful in conjunction with command line tools,
because their textual output is just editable/executable text
11:15 < wrtp> i couldn't live without structural regexps
11:16 < wrtp> then again, i've used it for years and years, so i'm biased.
before then i used vi.
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11:16 < wrtp> funnily enough, i still use ed occasionally...
11:19 < nimmen> nsf: yep
11:19 < nimmen> the only thing im looking for is autocompletion
11:19 < nimmen> everything else is ok
11:20 < nsf> nimmen: well, then you'll have to wait I guess, it's not hard
to implement it for Go, someone will eventually :)
11:22 < nsf> context sensitive completion is quite useful for languages with
namespaces (be it a package namespace or a members of a type namespace)
11:22 < mpl> wrtp: same on all points :)
11:22 < nimmen> yes, thought maybe someone already did =] (at least for core
functions it is done)
11:23 < wrtp> it shouldn't be too hard to bring autocompletion to acme.  the
UI might not be what you're used to though...
11:28 < jessta> yeah, acme does autocomplete for filenames
11:28 < jessta> so it should be able to do autocomplete for other things
11:37 < nsf> also syntax checks on the fly would be useful for Go
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11:38 < nsf> and maybe portions of semantics too :)
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11:38 < nsf> like passing int arguments to functions that take uint
11:38 < nsf> :)
11:43 < nsf> or a nice feature for IDE: autocast types
11:43 < nsf> I hate to type those:
11:43 < nsf> gl.TexCoord2f(gl.GLfloat(u), gl.GLfloat(v))
11:43 < nsf> gl.Vertex2i(gl.GLint(x), gl.GLint(y))
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11:45 < jessta> nsf: you could make functions to wrap those up
11:45 < nsf> I can, sure
11:45 < nsf> maybe it's even a good idea, I need to check OpenGL spec first
11:46 < nsf> I mean if it says something about exact type sizes, perfect!
11:50 < nsf> yes, it has minimum bit width requirements for each type
11:51 < nsf> but I guess using int32, uint32, etc.  won't help much with
type conversions :)
11:52 < nsf> so..  definitely I want that IDE feature :)
11:53 < nimmen> =]
11:55 < nsf> http://gist.github.com/451359
11:55 < nsf> I mean..  really :D
11:56 < jessta> gah!, the opengl api is terrible anyway
11:56 < jessta> the whole hidden state thing is a bad idea
11:56 < nsf> well, we don't have another 3D API on linux
11:57 < nimmen> http://github.com/banthar/Go-OpenGL ?
11:57 < nimmen> =]
11:58 < nsf> nimmen: yep, I'm using it
11:58 < wrtp> nsf: that code wouldn't be so bad if you cast x and y to GLint
at the start
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11:58 < nsf> wrtp: yep, you're right
11:58 < wrtp> particularly if blockSize and friends are constants
11:59 < nsf> yes, they are
11:59 < wrtp> then you'd only need two casts
11:59 < jessta> nsf: but you could wrap it up nicer
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11:59 < rsaarelm> Some kind of higher level of abstraction on top of raw
OpenGL seems like an idea, but it's pretty hard to figure out just what it should
be like.
12:00 < nsf> it's a bad idea, we still need raw opengl API :)
12:00 < rsaarelm> Application specific, of course.
12:00 < jessta> the gl_begin() is just silly
12:01 < rsaarelm> Procedural 3d geometry is kinda hairy, don't know what a
good way to do a tight API to it would be.
12:01 < nsf> jessta: I could use buffers, but I just like the simplicty of
glBegin glEnd
12:02 < jessta> I'd at least have an object
12:02 < nsf> the problem with buffers that OpenGL doesn't draw buffer
immediately
12:02 < jessta> something = gl.begin()
12:02 < nsf> you give it a pointer to a buffer
12:02 < nsf> and it doesn't play well with GC
12:02 < jessta> something.vertex()
12:02 < jessta> something.end()
12:03 < rsaarelm> Well if you are using raw OpenGL, then you are using raw
OpenGL, no need to tweak it with stuff like that.
12:03 < nsf> other than than you have to use VBO
12:03 < nsf> yes
12:03 < rsaarelm> If you decide to build something else on top of it, then
by all means go nuts with making it a bit more modern-like.
12:04 < rsaarelm> Fluent interfaces could work: mygl.Quads().Vertex(x,
y).Vertex(x2, y2).Vertex(x3, y3).Color(color.Purple).Vertex(x4, y4)
12:05 < rsaarelm> (with linebreaks to make the functions after Quads go on
their own lines.)
12:05 < nsf> http://gist.github.com/451367
12:05 < nsf> now it's better I guess
12:06 < nsf> I'll even remove table formatting
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14:20 < vrtical> Hey guys, can someone briefly talk me through C/go
compatibility using the gc compilers?  I can't find any documentation.
14:21 < vrtical> I mean at the really basic level of getting toy programs to
compile.
14:22 < nimmen> Gccgo is a GCC front-end that can, with care, be linked with
GCC-compiled C or C++ programs.  However, because Go is garbage-collected it will
be unwise to do so, at least naively.
14:24 < vrtical> okay, is there a way to compile C code with 6c and link it
with go programs compiled with 6g?  (can different-language-functions call one
another, or only go call C)
14:25 < vrtical> if not, what is the 6c program included in the distribution
for?
14:26 < bartbes> for cgo
14:27 < vrtical> doesn't cgo invoke gcc?  A naive attempt to use cgo, almost
certainly wrongly, gave 'gcc produced no output'
14:28 < bartbes> it doesn't compile by itself (afaik)
14:28 < bartbes> it just outputs 2 go files, a c file..  and something else
I forgot
14:31 < vrtical> "Cgo transforms the input file into four output files: two
Go source files, a C file for 6c (or 8c or 5c), and a C file for gcc" <<
does that mean you have to use both 6c and gcc, or does it mean you can use
either?
14:32 < EthanG> I'd guess either
14:32 < bartbes> but that'd mean 6c is useless
14:32 < bartbes> maybe the 6c c code is some kind of..  wrapper
14:32 < EthanG> 6c is a port of the compilers once found in 8th edition
unix, plan 9, inferno...
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14:34 < EthanG> it's not very much use for linux as it doesn't get on with
glibc's header files, but I think that could be worked around...  *shrugs*
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14:34 < bartbes> I never got cgo to work anyway
14:34 < EthanG> I'm starting to really hate gcc so i've been trying a bit,
but have higher-prioity projects..
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14:47 < skelterjohn> "By Qtvali - 1:06am - 1 author - 4 replies" typical,
lol
14:48 < skelterjohn> nimmen: gccgo might have gotten some updates, but last
i heard it did not use a garbage collector
14:48 < skelterjohn> so that particular worry is moot
14:48 < skelterjohn> for nos
14:48 < skelterjohn> now
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15:04 < uriel> Qtvali is really restraining himself, his latest thread is
'short'!
15:04 < Ginto8> ?
15:06 < EthanG> :)
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15:10 < ioricloud> lol
15:11 < ioricloud> Morning for all
15:11 < ioricloud> a question
15:11 < Ginto8> yes?
15:12 < ioricloud> exists some MVC in go equal the rails
15:12 < ioricloud> ruby on rails
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15:12 < Ginto8> huh?
15:13 < EthanG> ioricloud: not _equal_to_ rails yet, I think.
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15:14 < ioricloud> but exists some MVC
15:14 < Ginto8> Model–View–Controller?
15:14 < ioricloud> in go
15:14 < ioricloud> yes
15:15 < nimmen> i dont think so =]
15:16 < Ginto8> looking at it it seems possible to implement, but that may
just be because I'm not familiar with it and just looking at an abstract overview
15:16 < nimmen> do you know c mvc frameworks?
15:16 < Ginto8> and I may have interpreted the info completely wrong
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15:20 < ioricloud> nimmen, yes
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15:20 < ioricloud> mvc frameworks
15:20 < ioricloud> Ginto8, sorry
15:20 < Ginto8> it's fine
15:20 < ioricloud> my english is bad
15:20 < ioricloud> mvc framework in go
15:20 < ioricloud> hehe
15:21 < nimmen> i dont think there is any bigger need to have mvc framework
in go
15:22 < Ginto8> So you mean along the lines of say wxWidgets or swing right?
15:22 < Ginto8> something like that
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15:24 < nimmen> i am also wondering what he had in mind by mvc
15:25 < Ginto8> cuz from how its described it just seems like a fancy way of
processing input
15:28 < vrtical> oh come on, MVC is something that has been around for a
while and people seem to like using it.
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15:28 <+iant> "to be unable to solve a task, a task must be more intelligent
than I am"
15:29 < Ginto8> iant, quite true, but what relevance is that?
15:29 <+iant> I'm just marvelling at Qtvali's post on golang-nuts
15:29 <+iant> that was a quote
15:29 < Ginto8> o.0
15:29 < nimmen> im probably spoiled in my head by "mvc usually for web like
stuff" thoughts
15:29 < Ginto8> well it's true, but it sounds arrogant
15:29 < Ginto8> could you send me a link?
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15:30 <+iant>
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/f10d6ee042b7ff1e#
15:30 <+iant> It has nothing to do with Go
15:30 < Ginto8> I didn't expect any post with that quote in it to really
have anything related to go =P
15:32 < Ginto8> sounds like a bitch of a theoretical parallel programming
problem =P
15:33 < Ginto8> holy crap he's trying to figure how likely it'd be that
someone will come along capable of figuring it out o.0
15:33 <+iant> I haven't really tried to make sense of it
15:33 < uriel> 15:13 < EthanG> ioricloud: not _equal_to_ rails yet, I
think.
15:34 < uriel> I hope s/yet/ever/
15:34 < uriel> the MVC fetish web devs have is rather disturbing
15:34 < Ginto8> He's mixing theories of multiverse/infinite possibility with
parallel programming...  that really shouldn't happen, methinks
15:34 < EthanG> hehe
15:35 < uriel> iant: I'm wondering if Qtvali might be a reincarnation of
Mark V. Shaney: http://glenda.cat-v.org/friends/mark-v-shaney/
15:36 < EthanG> I don't know, that one post iant linked looks a lot more
coherent, to my eyes
15:37 < uriel> EthanG: I was not (completely) serious ;)
15:37 < EthanG> ok :)
15:37 < Ginto8> well they both seem to be full of themselves =D
15:37 < EthanG> haha
15:38 < uriel> but people like Qtvali are what make things like Mark V.
Shaney work belibably ;)
15:38 < Ginto8> just looking at one thing by mark v shaney I saw, in the
first 2 sentences, a definition of a french word and use of the word "loquacious"
to describe himself
15:38 < EthanG> I guess I'm insufficiently used to people like Qtvali then
XD
15:38 < Ginto8> any guy like that is pretty crazy
15:39 < uriel> Ginto8: keep reading ;)
15:39 < uriel> "For me, there was actually a specific intuitive issue with
halting
15:39 < uriel> problem, which is retrospection now - it applies to myself."
15:39 < EthanG> lmao
15:39 < Ginto8> is that by qtvali or mark v shaney?
15:39 < uriel> Ginto8: hard to tell, eh?  ;)
15:39 < uriel> that is qtvali!
15:40 < Ginto8> I thought it was qtvali cuz it was talking about halting
15:40 < Ginto8> he's trying to solve a problem with the wrong tools
entirely!
15:41 < uriel> yea, what I wonder is for which kind of problem is his brain
the right tool...
15:42 < Ginto8> well it's a good tool for writing a long, drawn-out post on
how to *possibly* solve a practically impossible problem
15:42 < EthanG> art, perhaps?  I wonder that about mine...
15:42 < Ginto8> anyway, enough of gawking at crazy people...  back to the
code!
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15:56 < nsf> http://static.itmages.ru/i/10/0624/h_1277390512_38b8847a90.png
15:56 < nsf> ugh :( that's tetris on x86_64
15:56 < nsf> I've replaced my loader with image/png
15:56 < nsf> and apparently did break something too
15:57 < nsf> can anyone confirm the bug on x86_64?  :)
15:59 < Ginto8> nsf, are you using exp/draw or are you still using SDL?
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15:59 < nsf> no i didn't change anything, only replaced an image loader
15:59 < nsf> I use opengl + sdl
16:00 < Ginto8> hmm then how are you using image/png?
16:00 < Ginto8> are you loading it, stripping the image into a 1d slice,
then passing a pointer to OGL?
16:00 < i__> i've experienced struct alignment problems with cgo on x86_64
machines, it's probably related
16:00 < nsf> cast to image.NRGBA and then uploading
unsafe.Pointer(&img.Pixels[0][0])
16:01 < nsf> works on x86
16:01 < nsf> I don't use cgo anymore
16:01 < Ginto8> nsf, that isn't gonna work!!!
16:01 < i__> weird
16:01 < nsf> Ginto8: it will
16:01 < nsf> oh
16:01 < nsf> even it works
16:01 < nsf> right now
16:01 < Ginto8> it's an array of arrays
16:01 < nsf> on my machine
16:01 < Ginto8> not a 1d array
16:01 < nsf> Ginto8: take a look at the code
16:01 < Ginto8> or rather slices
16:01 < nsf> they allocate two slices
16:01 < nsf> 1d and then 2d
16:02 < nsf> the second one is slice of slices
16:02 < nsf> image is still in the 1d chunk of memory
16:02 < Ginto8> oh whoah so that's how they do it
16:02 < Ginto8> damn didn't know
16:02 < Ginto8> cool!
16:02 < Ginto8> btw how complete are you finding Go-SDL/OpenGL to be?
16:03 < Ginto8> when I tried em they were...  well...  yknow
16:03 < nsf> I know there are problems with structures
16:03 < nsf> like cgo generating wrong enum variables
16:03 < nsf> and I don't use much of these libraries
16:04 < nsf> only simple things
16:04 < nsf> like drawing texture, rects, lines
16:04 < Ginto8> ok cuz I found Go-OpenGL at least to be woefully incomplete
for my needs
16:04 < nsf> if you do 3d probably it is
16:05 < Ginto8> I'm not even doing 3d
16:05 < nsf> but lately there is a separation like opengl 1.0 and opengl 2.0
16:05 < Ginto8> I'm just doing some really cool 2D
16:05 < nsf> opengl 2.0 contains shaders and stuff
16:05 < nsf> but probably incomplete still
16:05 < Ginto8> yeah
16:05 < Ginto8> It probly won't have VBO's which I'll probly use once I
start using particles
16:06 < nsf> well I'm sure quad core cpu can handle 2d particle systems
using glBegin and glEnd
16:06 < nsf> :D
16:06 < nsf> and probably even dual core
16:06 < Ginto8> ooh
16:07 < Ginto8> you're seriously expecting to have a CPU do all that?
16:07 < nsf> but of course you should use VBO :)
16:07 < Ginto8> for any real performance in a particle system you want VBO
or vertex arrays on the GPU
16:08 < Ginto8> especially since for good effects you need at least a few
thousand particles
16:08 < nsf> or?  I though VAO and VBO work together
16:08 < nsf> VAO encapsulates gl*Pointer state
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16:08 < nsf> and VBO is for buffers
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16:09 < Ginto8> maybe
16:09 < Ginto8> I haven't looked enough into either
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16:11 < nsf> regarding bindings..  I think it be pretty easy to generate
full bindings using a script
16:12 < nsf> because there are even no structures
16:12 < nsf> in the API
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16:13 < Ginto8> yeah maybe
16:14 < nsf> and not just opengl 2.0, but opengl 3.x and opengl 4.0
16:15 < nsf> or simply use something like glew
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16:16 < nsf> opengl 3.0 will suit better, because it has no client-side
buffers
16:16 < nsf> you have to upload things explicitly there
16:16 < nsf> it's easy to avoid problems with GC that way :)
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16:27 < EthanG> I hears OpenGL 2.x was hairy crud anyway
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16:48 < nsf> um..
16:49 < nsf> type S struct { var R, G, B, A uint8; };
16:49 < nsf> on x86_64 has unsafe.Sizeof == 8
16:49 < nsf> why?
16:49 < nsf> e.g.  NRGBAColor has size 8 bytes
16:49 < nsf> when it's about 32 bit color
16:50 < Ginto8> because structs are padded to word size
16:50 < Ginto8> on 32bit word size is 32 bits or 4 bytes
16:50 < nsf> omg
16:50 < Ginto8> on 64bit word size is 64 bits or 8 bytes
16:50 < nsf> then why do the use it for images?
16:50 < nsf> I told you about []byte
16:50 < Ginto8> they do?
16:50 < nsf> yes
16:50 < Ginto8> hm
16:51 < Ginto8> idk
16:51 < nsf> http://static.itmages.ru/i/10/0624/h_1277390512_38b8847a90.png
16:51 < nsf> the bug, remember?
16:51 < nsf> it's on x86_64 only
16:51 < Ginto8> oh lol
16:51 < nsf> texture has size 128x128
16:51 < skelterjohn> funny
16:51 < nsf> but lines have size 1024 bytes
16:51 < nsf> e.g.  256 * 4
16:51 < nsf> or 128 * 8
16:51 < Ginto8> standard library fail
16:51 < nsf> probably
16:52 < iLeNsTR> (-:
16:52 < Ginto8> iLeNsTR, you can leave your backwards smileys at home.  :-)
16:53 < Ginto8> btw what is the glitch exactly?
16:53 < skelterjohn> it's not a smiley.  it's a ghost with an umbrella
16:53 < iLeNsTR> oh...
16:53 < Ginto8> skelterjohn, omg thats awesome!
16:53 < nsf> Ginto8: the problem with texture loading
16:53 < Ginto8> yes?
16:53 < nsf> obviosly
16:53 < nsf> obviously
16:54 < Ginto8> oh it's the text right?
16:54 < nsf> it should be
16:54 < Ginto8> those sparse dots at the top
16:54 < skelterjohn> Ginto8: it's loading in the padded data as pixels, when
it shouldn't
16:54 < skelterjohn> or it's treating pixels as padded data
16:54 < skelterjohn> one or the other
16:54 < nsf> it's not padded data I'd say
16:54 < nsf> it's an array of padded structs
16:54 < nsf> :)
16:54 < Ginto8> skelterjohn, which is why it really should've been a []byte
not a set of padded structs
16:55 < skelterjohn> i make no arguments
16:55 < Ginto8> you could extract the rgba data into a struct if you want
16:55 < Ginto8> but []byte is how it shoulda been made
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16:56 * wrtp doesn't think that structs should always be padded to word size
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16:56 < Ginto8> wrtp, it's for that reason that C has a padded attribute
16:56 < Ginto8> which they should make available for go as well
16:57 < wrtp> i think that struct {T} should have the same alignment
properties as T
16:57 < wrtp> no need for a padded attribute
16:58 < Ginto8> sorry not a padded attribute a packed attrib
16:58 < wrtp> i don't think packed is necessary
16:58 < Ginto8> cuz sometimes it's better performance to have a struct be
padded to word size
16:58 < nsf> well, correct me if I'm wrong, structs in C are aligned using
biggest member size
16:58 < wrtp> it wouldn't make a difference with the RGBA struct
16:58 < Ginto8> but there are also times when you need it packed
16:59 < wrtp> why?
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16:59 < wrtp> rather, when?
16:59 < nsf> wrtp: writing/reading binary data, but Go doesn't supposed to
be used that way
17:00 < nsf> for some reason that I don't understand
17:00 < nsf> (e.g.  safety)
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17:01 < wrtp> it's non portable
17:02 < wrtp> anyway, i think the sizeof(RGBA) == 8 is an issue worth
raising
17:02 < wrtp> i'll do it if you won't
17:02 < nsf> structs in Go are not portable either
17:02 < nsf> do it :)
17:03 < wrtp> not portable how?
17:03 < nsf> well you just saw how :)
17:03 < nsf> word alignment in pixel struct hurts
17:03 < Ginto8> it isn't portable for different word sizes
17:04 < Ginto8> we need some sort of packed attribute
17:04 < nsf> I mean the language cannot be portable
17:04 < nsf> you should write portable programs and the language should
allow you to do that
17:04 < nsf> if you want to read a bunch of binary data to a struct, just do
it!
17:04 < nsf> I can't see a reason why it should be forbidden
17:05 < nsf> maybe you're targeting one platform only
17:05 < wrtp> you can do it - as you are, in fact
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17:05 < wrtp> but you have to use unsafe
17:05 < nsf> I can, yes
17:05 < wrtp> which it is
17:05 < nsf> even Sizeof is in unsafe :D
17:05 < nsf> portability is unsafe
17:05 < nsf> :D
17:06 < Ginto8> it shouldn't be
17:06 < wrtp> and the language shouldn't be twisted to accommodate that mode
of usage
17:06 < nsf> "unsafe" is just a very funny word for that
17:06 < nsf> wrtp: true
17:06 < nsf> but see how cgo does that
17:06 < nsf> it makes alignment for you using array of bytes
17:06 < Ginto8> wrtp, a single method of causing a struct to be packed would
work perfectly
17:06 < nsf> isn't that ugly?
17:07 < nsf> as far as I understand Go pads struct only at the end
17:07 < Ginto8> nsf, I'm fond of byte arrays, but that's just cuz I'm a C
programmer at heart =/
17:07 < nsf> not between members
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17:07 < nsf> Ginto8: well, I'm too sort of..  I think it is reasonable to
use []byte in NRGBA, RGBA, etc.
17:08 < nsf> and now I know exactly why
17:08 < Ginto8> yep
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17:10 < wrtp> i haven't checked but i'd guess it pads as necessary inside
structs too
17:11 < wrtp> so the alignment of b in struct {a byte; b int} would still be
sizeof(int)
17:11 < Ginto8> so that they can have good pointers
17:11 < Ginto8> that behave
17:12 < wrtp> many processors require aligned access
17:12 < Ginto8> yep
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17:12 < nsf> wrtp: I'm not sure about that
17:13 < nsf> because cgo is doing exactly this: struct {a byte; pad0
[3]byte; b int; }
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17:15 < vrtical> Even if Go compilers for current architectures don't pad
structs, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to leave it as a possibility.
17:15 < vrtical> Just reading data into a struct is fundamentally unportable
(though obviously you'll often want to di it if you can)
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17:22 < wrtp> nsf: http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=884
17:22 < wrtp> it's easy to check
17:22 < nsf> I'll star it
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17:23 < wrtp> i accidentally submitted twice 'cos the web page hung, so you
might want to wait until one gets deleted.
17:23 < nsf> I'll star both :D
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17:25 < wrtp> http://paste.lisp.org/+2E9Y
17:25 < wrtp> prints 0x30d30 0x30d34
17:26 < wrtp> which implies that, yes, members are padded as you'd expect
17:27 < nsf> hm..  interesting
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21:29 < gpolo> hi there.  I have been comparing some design issues between
Go and Lua and I just made it public at:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B53echtied7cZWEzNTNjYzctYzA3OS00Y2QzLTg1ZWUtZDc5MjFkZDA3MTRm&hl=en
21:30 < gpolo> it is in portuguese btw, but maybe someone is interested on
reading it and giving some feedback
21:32 < uriel> gpolo: I don't know, but the goals of Go and Lua seem to me
to be completely different
21:32 < uriel> actually, I have trouble thinking of two languages with more
different goals (other than extrmeley domain specific languages, or rather
esoteric stuff)
21:35 < gpolo> uriel: indeed, the goals are very different
21:36 < uriel> gpolo: I don't know portuguese, but so far I'm at slide 13,
and seems ok
21:37 < uriel> when you refer to 'object oriented', it would be good to
clarify in the case of Go, because it is not the same kind of OO that most people
are used to
21:37 < uriel> (nor is it 'protypical' OO as in lua)
21:38 < uriel> also, the lists of influences, while not really wrong, is a
bit strange, in lua mentioning C++ is weird, and seems too focused on syntactical
details
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21:38 < uriel> (CSP/limbo/alef influence is more substantive)
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21:45 < gpolo> uriel: I tried to not make up stuff, I took this list of
influences for Lua from an article from its creator
21:46 < gpolo> uriel: when you say too focused on syntactical details are
you referring to the phrases on this same slide of languages that influenced Lua ?
21:46 < gpolo> (sorry for the delay, was away)
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21:48 < gpolo> the other notes have been taken, thanks
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21:52 < uriel> gpolo: yea, as I said, my portuguese is not very good, but
that is the impression I got..
21:52 < uriel> will continue reading the slides later, need to take care of
some stuff first
21:52 < gpolo> you are right, you are good at guessing if you can't read
portuguese at all heh
21:52 < gpolo> thanks for your time uriel
21:53 < gpolo> and for the feedback of course
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22:17 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d2FC9 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- gob:
add support for complex numbers
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22:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d2H1V by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
fmt.Scan: fix handling of EOFs.
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23:03 < gpolo> (sorry if this is spam here) that pdf I sent earlier can now
be accessed at: http://www.slideshare.net/secret/bbFf6mQx6p5E02 (transcript
included so it might help a bit in translating to english)
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 25 00:00:12 2010