--- Log opened Thu Jun 24 00:00:12 2010 00:08 -!- gnrfan [~gnrfan@lab.aureal.com.pe] has left #go-nuts ["Saliendo"] 00:27 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-168-235-167.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39 -!- nsz [nsz@morecp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:43 -!- tasklist19 [~tasklist@c-98-208-175-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 00:47 -!- slashus2 [~slashus2@74-137-24-74.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: slashus2] 00:48 -!- franksalim [~frank@adsl-75-61-93-123.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:49 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@219.137.234.178] has joined #go-nuts 00:50 -!- nsz [nsz@morecp.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:55 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #go-nuts 00:55 -!- Ginto8 [~Ginto8@pool-72-82-235-34.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57 -!- iant [~iant@67.218.106.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:03 -!- Ginto8 [~Ginto8@pool-72-82-235-34.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:07 -!- perdiy [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #go-nuts 01:09 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:14 -!- artefon [~thiago@189.107.172.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:46 -!- bmizerany [~bmizerany@99.13.242.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 01:48 -!- nsz [nsz@morecp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:48 -!- kixgo [~renato.be@89-201-147-159.dsl.optinet.hr] has quit [] 01:53 -!- nsz [nsz@morecp.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:03 -!- slashus2 [~slashus2@74-137-24-74.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:06 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Eridius, vomjom, XenoPhoenix, felipe 02:07 -!- Netsplit over, joins: Eridius, XenoPhoenix, vomjom 02:09 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15 -!- bmizerany [~bmizerany@adsl-66-127-210-245.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:17 -!- General13372 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:21 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:29 < Ginto8> using utf8.EncodeRune on a slice with a length of 1 makes it so that it will only encode it if it will fit in a byte right? 02:36 -!- Eridius [~kevin@unaffiliated/eridius] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:36 -!- MizardX [~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:44 -!- tsykoduk [~tsykoduk@2001:470:1f04:671:20d:93ff:fe77:1dc4] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:46 < jessta> Ginto8: not really, if it's bigger than a byte then you'll go out of bounds on the slice 02:46 < jessta> Ginto8: the code is pretty easy to read 02:48 -!- htoothrot [~mux@71-8-117-228.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59 < Ginto8> hmm though is there any major disadvantage to restricting runes to a single byte? 03:00 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00 -!- Chinainvent [~chinainve@121.0.29.199] has joined #go-nuts 03:01 -!- Chinainvent [~chinainve@121.0.29.199] has quit [Client Quit] 03:02 -!- Chinainvent [~chinainve@121.0.29.199] has joined #go-nuts 03:03 < jessta> Ginto8: you can only use ascii characters 03:03 -!- Chinainvent [~chinainve@121.0.29.199] has quit [Client Quit] 03:03 < Ginto8> hmm ok then 03:03 -!- Chinainvent [~chinainve@121.0.29.199] has joined #go-nuts 03:04 < Ginto8> would there be any advantage to just sending along raw ints containing the unicode char? 03:05 < Ginto8> sry these are design questions I should be figuring out for myself 03:05 < Ginto8> sorry 03:06 < jessta> Ginto8: what are you trying to do? 03:06 < Ginto8> I'm using it for text input 03:06 < Ginto8> SDL's input provides raw unicoe chars 03:06 < Ginto8> unicode* 03:08 < jessta> where are you sending them? 03:08 < Ginto8> well now that I think about it it can be sent just about anywhere so ints would probly be of the most use 03:08 < Ginto8> and the user of my lib can encode it however the hell they want =P 03:30 -!- bmizerany [~bmizerany@adsl-66-127-210-245.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 03:44 -!- nf [~nf@124-168-130-8.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:44 -!- nf [~nf@124-168-130-8.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 03:44 -!- htoothrot [~mux@71-8-117-228.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:05 < jer> i'm iterating over one vector using Do(), and then inside that closure, doing the same thing (iterating over another vector). both of these vectors are properties of the items held within, and i need to grab each element inside, and store it, so on the next iteration, i can finish the bookkeeping work on each element by linking them together in a very specific way 04:05 < jer> this involves with removing sentinel elements, and Do()'s docs say behaviour is unspecified if you change the vector 04:05 < jer> any thoughts as to alternatives, preferably with specified behaviour =] 04:09 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:19 -!- iant [~iant@216.239.45.130] has joined #go-nuts 04:19 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 04:23 -!- ExtraSpice [~ExtraSpic@78-62-86-161.static.zebra.lt] has joined #go-nuts 04:27 -!- wobsite [~wobsite@68-112-244-225.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:28 -!- rv2733 [~ron@c-98-242-168-49.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:37 -!- ender2070 [~ender2070@bas22-toronto12-2925103372.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #go-nuts 04:38 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 04:58 -!- ShadowIce [pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 05:00 -!- scm [justme@d019227.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02 -!- scm [justme@d018223.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 05:03 < nsf> hm.. that's very interesting 05:03 < nsf> I've removed custom image loader in my gotris and replaced it with image/png 05:04 < nsf> and now for some reason Go starts one more thread after some time playing tetris 05:04 < nsf> causing OpenGL to crash because of that (I didn't use runtime.LockOSThread() before) 05:05 < nsf> it's strange because I've changed only loading code and the app crashes after few minutes of playing 05:06 < nsf> if I add runtime.LockOSThread() it don't of course, but shows that new thread is being spawn at that time 05:06 < nsf> very weird 05:07 < nsf> and the weirdes thing that it crushes exactly on the same line each time, which apparently causes new goroutine to show up 05:07 < nsf> :D 05:09 < nsf> And the only change in that function seems to be: 05:09 < nsf> - gl.BindTexture(gl.TEXTURE_2D, gl.GLuint(self.Texture.Id)) 05:09 < nsf> + gl.BindTexture(gl.TEXTURE_2D, self.Texture) 05:10 -!- ShadowIce [pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:14 < nsf> apparently this other goroutine is used to run finalizer 05:14 < nsf> but why 05:14 < nsf> hm.. 05:25 -!- Chinainvent [~chinainve@121.0.29.199] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:27 -!- tsykoduk [~tsykoduk@2001:470:1f04:671:20d:93ff:fe77:1dc4] has joined #go-nuts 05:30 -!- General13372 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:32 < nsf> haha, here we go 05:32 < nsf> it's because image/png uses zlib which uses io.Pipe 05:32 < nsf> which sets finalizer 05:34 < nsf> oh.. and even png itself uses io.Pipe 05:42 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:1141:2349:13c1:3469] has joined #go-nuts 06:16 -!- wobsite [~wobsite@68-112-244-225.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:21 -!- rv2733 [~ron@c-98-242-168-49.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:25 < uriel> Qtvali is back! oh dear... 06:25 < uriel> somebody should really get this guy a blog 06:27 -!- rhelmer [~rhelmer@adsl-69-107-53-85.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:27 -!- scarabx [~scarabx@c-76-19-43-200.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:32 -!- Gracenotes [~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33 -!- Macpunk [~macpunk@cpe-72-177-26-221.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 06:34 -!- lux` [~lux@151.71.215.184] has joined #go-nuts 06:42 -!- slashus2 [~slashus2@74-137-24-74.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: slashus2] 06:59 -!- mrd` [~matthew@shinobi.dempsky.org] has left #go-nuts [] 07:15 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 07:18 * nsf hates garbage collectors 07:18 < nsf> :( 07:19 -!- mat_ [~mat@mx3.absolight.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:20 -!- Wiz126 [~Wiz126@24.229.245.72.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:21 -!- mat_ [~mat@mx3.absolight.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:26 -!- Wiz126 [~Wiz126@24.229.245.72.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:30 -!- pfroehlich [~chatzilla@c-98-204-215-206.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:31 -!- rhelmer [~rhelmer@adsl-69-107-53-85.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: rhelmer] 07:44 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has joined #go-nuts 07:49 -!- pfroehlich [~chatzilla@c-98-204-215-206.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@f052191235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 08:00 -!- tav_ [~tav@92.29.27.68] has joined #go-nuts 08:03 -!- tav [~tav@2001:0:53aa:64c:0:3ffb:a3e2:e4bb] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:42 < jessta> nsf: what's wrong with garbage collectors? 08:42 < nsf> they are unpredictable :) 08:50 < jessta> it really depends, but why do you need to predict them? 08:52 < nsf> probably I don't 08:53 < nsf> it depends 08:53 < nsf> :) 08:53 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Quit: LeNsTR] 08:53 < nsf> I just don't like the fact that my simple app can eat up to 100 megs of memory 08:53 < nsf> while it uses less than 10 of them 08:53 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 08:54 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Client Quit] 08:55 < jessta> nsf: you can work around some of that 08:55 < jessta> plus, the GC will get better 08:55 < nsf> but if it requires extra work why do I need GC 08:56 < jessta> because concurrent memory management is really hard 08:57 < nsf> also I've heard a lot of stories about big 24/7 servers running java 08:57 < nsf> that leaks memory constantly :) 08:57 < nsf> if it's 10 megs per hour, you're lucky 08:57 < jessta> yep, actually they are leaking referneces 08:57 < nsf> sometimes it's 100 and more 08:58 < nsf> with that kind of behaviour I can't be happy about GC as a solution to a problem 08:58 < jessta> the GC can't know that you don't actually need the things your still apparently using 08:59 < jessta> it's your job to make sure you drop references to things you don't need so they GC can clear them up 08:59 < nsf> it won't help I bet 08:59 < nsf> in some cases it will leak memory anyway 09:00 < jessta> but if you code with the GC in mind, then when the GC gets better, you're memory management gets better too 09:00 < nsf> or not 09:00 < nsf> I've heard a lot of stories about that too 09:00 < jessta> these java programs without a GC and using malloc/free would have the same problems 09:00 < jessta> because they programmers are the problem 09:01 < nsf> well, malloc and free forces to dedicate a lot of time to memory management problem 09:01 < mpl> nsf: averaged on all programmers, there's probably more leaks due to coders to freeing their mem properly in non-gc languages than mem leaked in gc languages ;) 09:01 < mpl> *to coders not freeing 09:01 < jessta> indeed 09:01 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 09:01 < nsf> mpl: it's easy to debug memory leaks in a non-gc langauge 09:01 < nsf> with concurrency maybe it will be harder 09:01 < jessta> if a programmer doesn't understnad memory management then a GC won't save them 09:01 < nsf> but not that hard 09:02 < nsf> but in the GC you can't even debug it properly 09:02 < mpl> nsf: it may not be that hard, but it still takes some precious time and you may have leaks that are not detected right away so the product is shipped and you find out about it later. 09:02 < nsf> because apparently you don't know when and what happens with memory 09:03 < jessta> nsf: memory management in a concurrent enviornment is hell 09:04 < mpl> you don't need to if it's done well enough. which will hopefully be the case in Go someday :) 09:04 < nsf> jessta: I don't think so 09:04 < jessta> because then you need a way to know which 'thread' should free which memory 09:04 < jessta> and you need agreement between all the code involved 09:04 < nsf> jessta: that's a good thing anyway, you should know who owns what 09:05 < jessta> you should, but how do you?? 09:05 -!- Macpunk [~macpunk@cpe-72-177-26-221.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:05 < nsf> with proper design 09:05 < nsf> it takes time, but well ignoring problems (like in the GC case) isn't helping much 09:05 < jessta> you always end up with disagreements between bits of code 09:06 < mpl> jessta: agreed, I still have leaks in my plan 9 bittorrent client which is quite heavily concurrent because I let the issue unfixed for too long and now it's quite the hell to know where to fix it with all the coroutines :/ 09:06 < jessta> it's hard enough in C with one 'thread' 09:06 < nsf> with one thread it's easy :) 09:07 < jessta> half the function think they should be the ones freeing the memeory and the other half think the caller should do it 09:07 < mpl> indeed 09:07 < mpl> that's always my dilemna 09:08 < mpl> same with error management 09:08 < nsf> jessta: if you have that kind of mess in a code, it's your problem.. basically it means you didn't solve the problem 09:08 < mpl> I'm so happy with how it's done in go 09:08 < jessta> and then there are times when you pass something to a function that expects you to free it way later 09:08 < jessta> nsf:ever used GTK? 09:09 < nsf> GTK and all it's stack (glib, pango, cairo) has horrible memory management design 09:09 < jessta> yep, it does 09:09 < nsf> they actually think it's ok to allocate a bunch of memory and never free it 09:09 < jessta> because it's hard to get right 09:09 -!- mbarkhau [~koloss@dslb-084-059-163-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #go-nuts 09:09 < nsf> just because technically it's not a leak 09:09 < jessta> and most programmers aren't any better 09:10 < nsf> also there are of course not so smart people behind it sometimes 09:10 < nsf> pango for example 09:10 < nsf> I've fixed very horrible bugs in it's layout code (project called hurfbuzz) 09:11 < nsf> it was resulting in eating a lot of memory for some types of fonts (incl. DejaVu for example) 09:11 < nsf> the patched version results now in 30% less memory usage overall on a typical desktop setup 09:11 < nsf> :D 09:11 < jessta> GC means that you can fix a lot of problems later 09:11 < nsf> no you can't 09:12 < jessta> if memory is a real issue you can write a custom GC 09:12 < nsf> the only way to fix those problems is not making them 09:13 < rsaarelm> I had a fun time making SDL_TTF work with Go. I load font data in a memory buffer, give the buffer to the font library to initialize font, and tested it. I then noticed that letters didn't render if I waited more than ~10 seconds after initializing the font until rendering that letter for the first time. 09:13 < jessta> you also get more control of the memory management of code you didn't write 09:13 -!- Surma [~bzfsurma@gooseberry.zib.de] has joined #go-nuts 09:13 < nsf> jessta: do you have any control using GC at all? 09:14 < rsaarelm> Turns out the TTF library wasn't making a copy of the buffer I gave it from Go, but instead was expecting the buffer to not get garbage collected until the actual instantiated font struct did. Yay. 09:14 < jessta> nsf: yes, you get full control 09:14 < nsf> rsaarelm: don't use SDL_TTF :) check out how I do fonts in gotris :D 09:15 < nsf> well, I use bitmap fonts 09:15 < jessta> nsf: you can do things like delaying free memory until a non time sensitive time in the code 09:15 < nsf> but I think it's even better than using unknown weird library that does magic caching behind the scene 09:16 < rsaarelm> Bitmap fonts would be extra effort. 09:16 < nsf> rsaarelm: all fonts are bitmap fonts :) 09:16 < jessta> eg. if you call something in a tight loop and it frees something with every call, you can delay that until after the full loop has completed 09:16 < nsf> you just don't know it 09:16 < rsaarelm> Yes. Me not needing to know it is less effort. 09:16 < nsf> I bet even freetype does caching of some sort 09:17 < nsf> jessta: the problem that you can't tell GC to dealloc memory 09:17 < nsf> it will dealloc if it can 09:17 < nsf> otherwise it won't 09:17 < nsf> and if it can't do anything about your memory.. that's it 09:17 < nsf> hack it or leave it 09:17 < rsaarelm> Of course bitmap fonts would make the game have less dependencies, so there's that. 09:18 < jessta> nsf: you can't dealloc memory in your Go code, but you can in the GC 09:19 < nsf> jessta: but the GC is here, and you can't change its code 09:19 < jessta> yes! you can! 09:19 < nsf> nope 09:19 < jessta> the source code is right there 09:19 -!- Surma [~bzfsurma@gooseberry.zib.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:19 < nsf> I mean you will introduce more bugs to it 09:20 < nsf> and happy debugging :) 09:20 < jessta> it's far easier than trying to teach programmers how to do proper memory management 09:20 < nsf> I think the GC is just a wrong solution to a problem 09:21 < nsf> jessta: it doesn't mean that you shouldn't teach programmers 09:21 < jessta> of course you should 09:21 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@41.155.68.179] has joined #go-nuts 09:21 < nsf> therefore the GC is a wrong temporary solution 09:21 < jessta> and teach programmers to nil out pointers they are no longer using is important 09:22 < nsf> to bad skilled programmers 09:22 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@f052191235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leave the magic to Houdini] 09:22 < jessta> which is pretty much like calling free() 09:22 < jessta> except you get better control over it 09:22 < nsf> you don't have any control on GC, I don't believe you 09:22 < nsf> :) 09:23 < mpl> nsf: you don't have any control over the education of programmers all over the world, you have control over your GC. 09:23 < nsf> mpl: true 09:23 < nsf> as I said.. temporary solution to a global problem 09:23 < jessta> nsf: your unwillingness to believe it doesn't make it any less true 09:24 < nsf> jessta: your words don't make it true either 09:24 < jessta> but logic does 09:24 < nsf> nope 09:24 -!- Surma [~bzfsurma@gooseberry.zib.de] has joined #go-nuts 09:25 < jessta> lol, alright then. 09:25 < nsf> :) 09:26 < jessta> I like the idea of future options of things like compacting GC 09:26 < jessta> or running the GC in a seperate thread 09:27 < nsf> I believe there will be a language in future that helps a lot with resource managing problem and it will not contain GC at all :) 09:27 < jessta> or automatically inserting frees at compile time for things known to be predictable 09:28 < jessta> nsf: you ever written anything in the language called "clean"? 09:28 < nsf> nope 09:28 < jessta> it's a lot like haskell 09:28 < nsf> I don't like haske;; 09:28 < nsf> haskell* 09:28 < jessta> in clean things go out of scope when they are passed to a function 09:29 < jessta> so you can't reference a variable after you've pass it to a function 09:29 < nsf> I'm sure it's not even close to the langauge I'm talking about :) 09:29 < mpl> uh. that must be hard to program with thath state of mind. 09:29 < jessta> the only way to get a refernece to it again is to get it returned back from the function 09:29 < jessta> so every object always has an owner 09:30 < jessta> so there is always a known place where it can be freed 09:30 < mpl> that's interesting but it seems more limiting than it is helping in most cases.... 09:30 < jessta> yes, it's limiting. But that's how you do automatic memory management without a GC 09:31 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@219.137.234.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:31 < mpl> yeah, neat concept. 09:32 < jessta> clean is haskell without the monads 09:32 < jessta> the syntax is almost exactly the same 09:33 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [Ping timeout: 620 seconds] 09:33 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@41.155.68.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:34 < jessta> the concept would work really nicely with channels 09:35 < jessta> send something over a channel and can't do anything with it until you get it back again 09:36 -!- tux21b [~christoph@90.146.60.30] has joined #go-nuts 09:39 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.70.156] has joined #go-nuts 09:42 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 09:46 -!- nimmen [~blunt@62.82.37.114] has joined #go-nuts 09:48 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@41.155.68.179] has joined #go-nuts 09:58 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 10:00 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.70.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:04 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.70.156] has joined #go-nuts 10:07 -!- jdp [~gu@24.238.32.162.res-cmts.segr.ptd.net] has quit [] 10:14 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has joined #go-nuts 10:26 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:34 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has joined #go-nuts 10:46 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.70.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.70.156] has joined #go-nuts 10:59 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-171-41.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 11:04 -!- nimmen [~blunt@62.82.37.114] has left #go-nuts [] 11:04 -!- nimmen [~blunt@62.82.37.114] has joined #go-nuts 11:05 < nimmen> which ide you use for go coding? 11:05 < nsf> no ide, vim 11:05 < Ginto8> nimmen, IDK about ides, I think eclips and xcode have them 11:05 < Ginto8> have plugins* 11:05 < Ginto8> I use gedit or vim 11:06 < nimmen> ok thanks 11:07 < nimmen> i tried one eclipse plugin, but it supports only core functions (no library functions), guess will have to wait 11:08 < Ginto8> nimmen, just using a text editor should be fine. Go has a really easy way to set up makefiles so you shouldn't really experience any difficulty 11:09 < nsf> Ginto8: there are people addicted to autocompletion :) (mostly java, C# and C++ people) 11:09 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@41.155.68.179] has left #go-nuts [] 11:10 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@41.155.68.179] has joined #go-nuts 11:10 < nsf> I guess that's the main reason why they use IDE instead of an editor 11:10 < Ginto8> nsf, I understand. I love autocompletion, but I can easily make use without it 11:10 < Ginto8> make do* 11:11 < wrtp> i use acme 11:11 < nsf> I like vim's text autocompletion, because it saves typing but still requires to remember everything (keeps memory in a good shape :D) 11:11 < wrtp> but the learning curve is quite steep... 11:11 < jessta> wrtp: acme? 11:11 < jessta> the learning curve is't sttep 11:12 < Ginto8> wrtp, out of curiosity, does it have syntax highlighting? 11:12 < wrtp> nope 11:12 < Ginto8> I'm not addicted to autocomplete but I am to syntax highlighting 11:12 < wrtp> it's pretty bare bones 11:12 < wrtp> but very powerful 11:12 < Ginto8> so it's like vi 11:12 < Ginto8> in a way 11:12 < wrtp> better than vi 11:12 < nsf> syntax highlighting, yes.. can't live without it 11:12 < wrtp> IMGO 11:13 < wrtp> s/G/H/ 11:13 < wrtp> depends on the syntax i guess. i've never missed it. 11:13 < Ginto8> wrtp, I'm intrigued. I'll have to try it out sometime 11:13 < nsf> I tried acme 11:13 < wrtp> it's worth a go. but don't bring any preconceptions with you when you do. 11:14 < nsf> didn't quite get the point 11:15 < wrtp> the point is that you can edit & process text really conveniently. it's particularly powerful in conjunction with command line tools, because their textual output is just editable/executable text 11:15 < wrtp> i couldn't live without structural regexps 11:16 < wrtp> then again, i've used it for years and years, so i'm biased. before then i used vi. 11:16 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@41.155.68.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:16 < wrtp> funnily enough, i still use ed occasionally... 11:19 < nimmen> nsf: yep 11:19 < nimmen> the only thing im looking for is autocompletion 11:19 < nimmen> everything else is ok 11:20 < nsf> nimmen: well, then you'll have to wait I guess, it's not hard to implement it for Go, someone will eventually :) 11:22 < nsf> context sensitive completion is quite useful for languages with namespaces (be it a package namespace or a members of a type namespace) 11:22 < mpl> wrtp: same on all points :) 11:22 < nimmen> yes, thought maybe someone already did =] (at least for core functions it is done) 11:23 < wrtp> it shouldn't be too hard to bring autocompletion to acme. the UI might not be what you're used to though... 11:28 < jessta> yeah, acme does autocomplete for filenames 11:28 < jessta> so it should be able to do autocomplete for other things 11:37 < nsf> also syntax checks on the fly would be useful for Go 11:38 -!- Ginto8 [~Ginto8@pool-72-82-235-34.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:38 < nsf> and maybe portions of semantics too :) 11:38 -!- abiosoft [~abiosoft@2002:299b:38e1:d:219:7eff:fe8f:1f59] has joined #go-nuts 11:38 < nsf> like passing int arguments to functions that take uint 11:38 < nsf> :) 11:43 < nsf> or a nice feature for IDE: autocast types 11:43 < nsf> I hate to type those: 11:43 < nsf> gl.TexCoord2f(gl.GLfloat(u), gl.GLfloat(v)) 11:43 < nsf> gl.Vertex2i(gl.GLint(x), gl.GLint(y)) 11:43 -!- artefon [~thiago@189.107.195.176] has joined #go-nuts 11:45 < jessta> nsf: you could make functions to wrap those up 11:45 < nsf> I can, sure 11:45 < nsf> maybe it's even a good idea, I need to check OpenGL spec first 11:46 < nsf> I mean if it says something about exact type sizes, perfect! 11:50 < nsf> yes, it has minimum bit width requirements for each type 11:51 < nsf> but I guess using int32, uint32, etc. won't help much with type conversions :) 11:52 < nsf> so.. definitely I want that IDE feature :) 11:53 < nimmen> =] 11:55 < nsf> http://gist.github.com/451359 11:55 < nsf> I mean.. really :D 11:56 < jessta> gah!, the opengl api is terrible anyway 11:56 < jessta> the whole hidden state thing is a bad idea 11:56 < nsf> well, we don't have another 3D API on linux 11:57 < nimmen> http://github.com/banthar/Go-OpenGL ? 11:57 < nimmen> =] 11:58 < nsf> nimmen: yep, I'm using it 11:58 < wrtp> nsf: that code wouldn't be so bad if you cast x and y to GLint at the start 11:58 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #go-nuts 11:58 < nsf> wrtp: yep, you're right 11:58 < wrtp> particularly if blockSize and friends are constants 11:59 < nsf> yes, they are 11:59 < wrtp> then you'd only need two casts 11:59 < jessta> nsf: but you could wrap it up nicer 11:59 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:59 < rsaarelm> Some kind of higher level of abstraction on top of raw OpenGL seems like an idea, but it's pretty hard to figure out just what it should be like. 12:00 < nsf> it's a bad idea, we still need raw opengl API :) 12:00 < rsaarelm> Application specific, of course. 12:00 < jessta> the gl_begin() is just silly 12:01 < rsaarelm> Procedural 3d geometry is kinda hairy, don't know what a good way to do a tight API to it would be. 12:01 < nsf> jessta: I could use buffers, but I just like the simplicty of glBegin glEnd 12:02 < jessta> I'd at least have an object 12:02 < nsf> the problem with buffers that OpenGL doesn't draw buffer immediately 12:02 < jessta> something = gl.begin() 12:02 < nsf> you give it a pointer to a buffer 12:02 < nsf> and it doesn't play well with GC 12:02 < jessta> something.vertex() 12:02 < jessta> something.end() 12:03 < rsaarelm> Well if you are using raw OpenGL, then you are using raw OpenGL, no need to tweak it with stuff like that. 12:03 < nsf> other than than you have to use VBO 12:03 < nsf> yes 12:03 < rsaarelm> If you decide to build something else on top of it, then by all means go nuts with making it a bit more modern-like. 12:04 < rsaarelm> Fluent interfaces could work: mygl.Quads().Vertex(x, y).Vertex(x2, y2).Vertex(x3, y3).Color(color.Purple).Vertex(x4, y4) 12:05 < rsaarelm> (with linebreaks to make the functions after Quads go on their own lines.) 12:05 < nsf> http://gist.github.com/451367 12:05 < nsf> now it's better I guess 12:06 < nsf> I'll even remove table 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has joined #go-nuts 14:13 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:20 < vrtical> Hey guys, can someone briefly talk me through C/go compatibility using the gc compilers? I can't find any documentation. 14:21 < vrtical> I mean at the really basic level of getting toy programs to compile. 14:22 < nimmen> Gccgo is a GCC front-end that can, with care, be linked with GCC-compiled C or C++ programs. However, because Go is garbage-collected it will be unwise to do so, at least naively. 14:24 < vrtical> okay, is there a way to compile C code with 6c and link it with go programs compiled with 6g? (can different-language-functions call one another, or only go call C) 14:25 < vrtical> if not, what is the 6c program included in the distribution for? 14:26 < bartbes> for cgo 14:27 < vrtical> doesn't cgo invoke gcc? A naive attempt to use cgo, almost certainly wrongly, gave 'gcc produced no output' 14:28 < bartbes> it doesn't compile by itself (afaik) 14:28 < bartbes> it just outputs 2 go files, a c file.. and something else I forgot 14:31 < vrtical> "Cgo transforms the input file into four output files: two Go source files, a C file for 6c (or 8c or 5c), and a C file for gcc" << does that mean you have to use both 6c and gcc, or does it mean you can use either? 14:32 < EthanG> I'd guess either 14:32 < bartbes> but that'd mean 6c is useless 14:32 < bartbes> maybe the 6c c code is some kind of.. wrapper 14:32 < EthanG> 6c is a port of the compilers once found in 8th edition unix, plan 9, inferno... 14:33 -!- artefon [~thiago@189.107.195.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:34 < EthanG> it's not very much use for linux as it doesn't get on with glibc's header files, but I think that could be worked around... *shrugs* 14:34 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@f055156255.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:34 < bartbes> I never got cgo to work anyway 14:34 < EthanG> I'm starting to really hate gcc so i've been trying a bit, but have higher-prioity projects.. 14:34 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055219056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39 -!- sladegen [~nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #go-nuts 14:41 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 14:41 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:43 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 14:43 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 14:44 -!- zozoR [~zozoR@0x5da69cf2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1105.hsnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #go-nuts 14:47 < skelterjohn> "By Qtvali - 1:06am - 1 author - 4 replies" typical, lol 14:48 < skelterjohn> nimmen: gccgo might have gotten some updates, but last i heard it did not use a garbage collector 14:48 < skelterjohn> so that particular worry is moot 14:48 < skelterjohn> for nos 14:48 < skelterjohn> now 14:50 -!- Shyde [~shyde@HSI-KBW-078-043-070-132.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:52 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 14:53 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Quit: LeNsTR] 14:54 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 15:01 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:01 -!- alc [~arx@222.128.140.40] has joined #go-nuts 15:04 < uriel> Qtvali is really restraining himself, his latest thread is 'short'! 15:04 < Ginto8> ? 15:06 < EthanG> :) 15:07 -!- smw [~smw@pool-96-232-88-231.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:10 -!- ioricloud [~henrique@unaffiliated/ioricloud] has joined #go-nuts 15:10 < ioricloud> lol 15:11 < ioricloud> Morning for all 15:11 < ioricloud> a question 15:11 < Ginto8> yes? 15:12 < ioricloud> exists some MVC in go equal the rails 15:12 < ioricloud> ruby on rails 15:12 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 15:12 < Ginto8> huh? 15:13 < EthanG> ioricloud: not _equal_to_ rails yet, I think. 15:14 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14 < ioricloud> but exists some MVC 15:14 < Ginto8> Model–View–Controller? 15:14 < ioricloud> in go 15:14 < ioricloud> yes 15:15 < nimmen> i dont think so =] 15:16 < Ginto8> looking at it it seems possible to implement, but that may just be because I'm not familiar with it and just looking at an abstract overview 15:16 < nimmen> do you know c mvc frameworks? 15:16 < Ginto8> and I may have interpreted the info completely wrong 15:17 -!- sahid [~sahid@lev92-4-88-164-132-26.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:20 < ioricloud> nimmen, yes 15:20 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #go-nuts 15:20 < ioricloud> mvc frameworks 15:20 < ioricloud> Ginto8, sorry 15:20 < Ginto8> it's fine 15:20 < ioricloud> my english is bad 15:20 < ioricloud> mvc framework in go 15:20 < ioricloud> hehe 15:21 < nimmen> i dont think there is any bigger need to have mvc framework in go 15:22 < Ginto8> So you mean along the lines of say wxWidgets or swing right? 15:22 < Ginto8> something like that 15:24 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has joined #go-nuts 15:24 < nimmen> i am also wondering what he had in mind by mvc 15:25 < Ginto8> cuz from how its described it just seems like a fancy way of processing input 15:28 < vrtical> oh come on, MVC is something that has been around for a while and people seem to like using it. 15:28 -!- carrus85 [~carrus85@64.0.193.15] has joined #go-nuts 15:28 <+iant> "to be unable to solve a task, a task must be more intelligent than I am" 15:29 < Ginto8> iant, quite true, but what relevance is that? 15:29 <+iant> I'm just marvelling at Qtvali's post on golang-nuts 15:29 <+iant> that was a quote 15:29 < Ginto8> o.0 15:29 < nimmen> im probably spoiled in my head by "mvc usually for web like stuff" thoughts 15:29 < Ginto8> well it's true, but it sounds arrogant 15:29 < Ginto8> could you send me a link? 15:29 -!- willdye [~willdye@fern.dsndata.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:30 <+iant> http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/f10d6ee042b7ff1e# 15:30 <+iant> It has nothing to do with Go 15:30 < Ginto8> I didn't expect any post with that quote in it to really have anything related to go =P 15:32 < Ginto8> sounds like a bitch of a theoretical parallel programming problem =P 15:33 < Ginto8> holy crap he's trying to figure how likely it'd be that someone will come along capable of figuring it out o.0 15:33 <+iant> I haven't really tried to make sense of it 15:33 < uriel> 15:13 < EthanG> ioricloud: not _equal_to_ rails yet, I think. 15:34 < uriel> I hope s/yet/ever/ 15:34 < uriel> the MVC fetish web devs have is rather disturbing 15:34 < Ginto8> He's mixing theories of multiverse/infinite possibility with parallel programming... that really shouldn't happen, methinks 15:34 < EthanG> hehe 15:35 < uriel> iant: I'm wondering if Qtvali might be a reincarnation of Mark V. Shaney: http://glenda.cat-v.org/friends/mark-v-shaney/ 15:36 < EthanG> I don't know, that one post iant linked looks a lot more coherent, to my eyes 15:37 < uriel> EthanG: I was not (completely) serious ;) 15:37 < EthanG> ok :) 15:37 < Ginto8> well they both seem to be full of themselves =D 15:37 < EthanG> haha 15:38 < uriel> but people like Qtvali are what make things like Mark V. Shaney work belibably ;) 15:38 < Ginto8> just looking at one thing by mark v shaney I saw, in the first 2 sentences, a definition of a french word and use of the word "loquacious" to describe himself 15:38 < EthanG> I guess I'm insufficiently used to people like Qtvali then XD 15:38 < Ginto8> any guy like that is pretty crazy 15:39 < uriel> Ginto8: keep reading ;) 15:39 < uriel> "For me, there was actually a specific intuitive issue with halting 15:39 < uriel> problem, which is retrospection now - it applies to myself." 15:39 < EthanG> lmao 15:39 < Ginto8> is that by qtvali or mark v shaney? 15:39 < uriel> Ginto8: hard to tell, eh? ;) 15:39 < uriel> that is qtvali! 15:40 < Ginto8> I thought it was qtvali cuz it was talking about halting 15:40 < Ginto8> he's trying to solve a problem with the wrong tools entirely! 15:41 < uriel> yea, what I wonder is for which kind of problem is his brain the right tool... 15:42 < Ginto8> well it's a good tool for writing a long, drawn-out post on how to *possibly* solve a practically impossible problem 15:42 < EthanG> art, perhaps? I wonder that about mine... 15:42 < Ginto8> anyway, enough of gawking at crazy people... back to the code! 15:52 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts 15:54 -!- KinOfCain [~KinOfCain@rrcs-64-183-61-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55 -!- KinOfCain [~KinOfCain@rrcs-64-183-61-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:55 -!- jingzuo [~brandon@h159.123.255.206.cable.thlq.cablelynx.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:56 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:56 < nsf> http://static.itmages.ru/i/10/0624/h_1277390512_38b8847a90.png 15:56 < nsf> ugh :( that's tetris on x86_64 15:56 < nsf> I've replaced my loader with image/png 15:56 < nsf> and apparently did break something too 15:57 < nsf> can anyone confirm the bug on x86_64? :) 15:59 < Ginto8> nsf, are you using exp/draw or are you still using SDL? 15:59 -!- alc [~arx@222.128.140.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:59 < nsf> no i didn't change anything, only replaced an image loader 15:59 < nsf> I use opengl + sdl 16:00 < Ginto8> hmm then how are you using image/png? 16:00 < Ginto8> are you loading it, stripping the image into a 1d slice, then passing a pointer to OGL? 16:00 < i__> i've experienced struct alignment problems with cgo on x86_64 machines, it's probably related 16:00 < nsf> cast to image.NRGBA and then uploading unsafe.Pointer(&img.Pixels[0][0]) 16:01 < nsf> works on x86 16:01 < nsf> I don't use cgo anymore 16:01 < Ginto8> nsf, that isn't gonna work!!! 16:01 < i__> weird 16:01 < nsf> Ginto8: it will 16:01 < nsf> oh 16:01 < nsf> even it works 16:01 < nsf> right now 16:01 < Ginto8> it's an array of arrays 16:01 < nsf> on my machine 16:01 < Ginto8> not a 1d array 16:01 < nsf> Ginto8: take a look at the code 16:01 < Ginto8> or rather slices 16:01 < nsf> they allocate two slices 16:01 < nsf> 1d and then 2d 16:02 < nsf> the second one is slice of slices 16:02 < nsf> image is still in the 1d chunk of memory 16:02 < Ginto8> oh whoah so that's how they do it 16:02 < Ginto8> damn didn't know 16:02 < Ginto8> cool! 16:02 < Ginto8> btw how complete are you finding Go-SDL/OpenGL to be? 16:03 < Ginto8> when I tried em they were... well... yknow 16:03 < nsf> I know there are problems with structures 16:03 < nsf> like cgo generating wrong enum variables 16:03 < nsf> and I don't use much of these libraries 16:04 < nsf> only simple things 16:04 < nsf> like drawing texture, rects, lines 16:04 < Ginto8> ok cuz I found Go-OpenGL at least to be woefully incomplete for my needs 16:04 < nsf> if you do 3d probably it is 16:05 < Ginto8> I'm not even doing 3d 16:05 < nsf> but lately there is a separation like opengl 1.0 and opengl 2.0 16:05 < Ginto8> I'm just doing some really cool 2D 16:05 < nsf> opengl 2.0 contains shaders and stuff 16:05 < nsf> but probably incomplete still 16:05 < Ginto8> yeah 16:05 < Ginto8> It probly won't have VBO's which I'll probly use once I start using particles 16:06 < nsf> well I'm sure quad core cpu can handle 2d particle systems using glBegin and glEnd 16:06 < nsf> :D 16:06 < nsf> and probably even dual core 16:06 < Ginto8> ooh 16:07 < Ginto8> you're seriously expecting to have a CPU do all that? 16:07 < nsf> but of course you should use VBO :) 16:07 < Ginto8> for any real performance in a particle system you want VBO or vertex arrays on the GPU 16:08 < Ginto8> especially since for good effects you need at least a few thousand particles 16:08 < nsf> or? I though VAO and VBO work together 16:08 < nsf> VAO encapsulates gl*Pointer state 16:08 -!- slashus2 [~slashus2@74-137-24-74.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:08 < nsf> and VBO is for buffers 16:09 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:09 < Ginto8> maybe 16:09 < Ginto8> I haven't looked enough into either 16:10 -!- b00m_chef [~watr@216-21-143-134.ip.van.radiant.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:10 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 16:11 < nsf> regarding bindings.. I think it be pretty easy to generate full bindings using a script 16:12 < nsf> because there are even no structures 16:12 < nsf> in the API 16:13 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 16:13 < Ginto8> yeah maybe 16:14 < nsf> and not just opengl 2.0, but opengl 3.x and opengl 4.0 16:15 < nsf> or simply use something like glew 16:15 -!- b00m_chef [~watr@216-21-143-134.ip.van.radiant.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15 -!- b00m_chef [~watr@216-21-143-134.ip.van.radiant.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:16 < nsf> opengl 3.0 will suit better, because it has no client-side buffers 16:16 < nsf> you have to upload things explicitly there 16:16 < nsf> it's easy to avoid problems with GC that way :) 16:21 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:22 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 16:23 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@f052191235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leave the magic to Houdini] 16:24 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27 -!- Guest82276 [~irc@209.17.191.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27 -!- irc [~irc@209.17.191.58] has joined #go-nuts 16:27 < EthanG> I hears OpenGL 2.x was hairy crud anyway 16:28 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33 -!- gnuvince [~vince@72.0.216.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34 -!- gnuvince [~vince@205.153-ppp.3menatwork.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:36 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [Ping timeout: 620 seconds] 16:37 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has joined #go-nuts 16:39 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@f052191235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:48 < nsf> um.. 16:49 < nsf> type S struct { var R, G, B, A uint8; }; 16:49 < nsf> on x86_64 has unsafe.Sizeof == 8 16:49 < nsf> why? 16:49 < nsf> e.g. NRGBAColor has size 8 bytes 16:49 < nsf> when it's about 32 bit color 16:50 < Ginto8> because structs are padded to word size 16:50 < Ginto8> on 32bit word size is 32 bits or 4 bytes 16:50 < nsf> omg 16:50 < Ginto8> on 64bit word size is 64 bits or 8 bytes 16:50 < nsf> then why do the use it for images? 16:50 < nsf> I told you about []byte 16:50 < Ginto8> they do? 16:50 < nsf> yes 16:50 < Ginto8> hm 16:51 < Ginto8> idk 16:51 < nsf> http://static.itmages.ru/i/10/0624/h_1277390512_38b8847a90.png 16:51 < nsf> the bug, remember? 16:51 < nsf> it's on x86_64 only 16:51 < Ginto8> oh lol 16:51 < nsf> texture has size 128x128 16:51 < skelterjohn> funny 16:51 < nsf> but lines have size 1024 bytes 16:51 < nsf> e.g. 256 * 4 16:51 < nsf> or 128 * 8 16:51 < Ginto8> standard library fail 16:51 < nsf> probably 16:52 < iLeNsTR> (-: 16:52 < Ginto8> iLeNsTR, you can leave your backwards smileys at home. :-) 16:53 < Ginto8> btw what is the glitch exactly? 16:53 < skelterjohn> it's not a smiley. it's a ghost with an umbrella 16:53 < iLeNsTR> oh... 16:53 < Ginto8> skelterjohn, omg thats awesome! 16:53 < nsf> Ginto8: the problem with texture loading 16:53 < Ginto8> yes? 16:53 < nsf> obviosly 16:53 < nsf> obviously 16:54 < Ginto8> oh it's the text right? 16:54 < nsf> it should be 16:54 < Ginto8> those sparse dots at the top 16:54 < skelterjohn> Ginto8: it's loading in the padded data as pixels, when it shouldn't 16:54 < skelterjohn> or it's treating pixels as padded data 16:54 < skelterjohn> one or the other 16:54 < nsf> it's not padded data I'd say 16:54 < nsf> it's an array of padded structs 16:54 < nsf> :) 16:54 < Ginto8> skelterjohn, which is why it really should've been a []byte not a set of padded structs 16:55 < skelterjohn> i make no arguments 16:55 < Ginto8> you could extract the rgba data into a struct if you want 16:55 < Ginto8> but []byte is how it shoulda been made 16:55 -!- Wiz126 [~Wiz126@24.229.245.72.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56 -!- rhelmer [~rhelmer@adsl-69-107-75-202.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:56 * wrtp doesn't think that structs should always be padded to word size 16:56 -!- Wiz126 [~Wiz126@24.229.245.72.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:56 < Ginto8> wrtp, it's for that reason that C has a padded attribute 16:56 < Ginto8> which they should make available for go as well 16:57 < wrtp> i think that struct {T} should have the same alignment properties as T 16:57 < wrtp> no need for a padded attribute 16:58 < Ginto8> sorry not a padded attribute a packed attrib 16:58 < wrtp> i don't think packed is necessary 16:58 < Ginto8> cuz sometimes it's better performance to have a struct be padded to word size 16:58 < nsf> well, correct me if I'm wrong, structs in C are aligned using biggest member size 16:58 < wrtp> it wouldn't make a difference with the RGBA struct 16:58 < Ginto8> but there are also times when you need it packed 16:59 < wrtp> why? 16:59 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59 < wrtp> rather, when? 16:59 < nsf> wrtp: writing/reading binary data, but Go doesn't supposed to be used that way 17:00 < nsf> for some reason that I don't understand 17:00 < nsf> (e.g. safety) 17:00 -!- Wiz126 [~Wiz126@24.229.245.72.res-cmts.sm.ptd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 17:01 < wrtp> it's non portable 17:02 < wrtp> anyway, i think the sizeof(RGBA) == 8 is an issue worth raising 17:02 < wrtp> i'll do it if you won't 17:02 < nsf> structs in Go are not portable either 17:02 < nsf> do it :) 17:03 < wrtp> not portable how? 17:03 < nsf> well you just saw how :) 17:03 < nsf> word alignment in pixel struct hurts 17:03 < Ginto8> it isn't portable for different word sizes 17:04 < Ginto8> we need some sort of packed attribute 17:04 < nsf> I mean the language cannot be portable 17:04 < nsf> you should write portable programs and the language should allow you to do that 17:04 < nsf> if you want to read a bunch of binary data to a struct, just do it! 17:04 < nsf> I can't see a reason why it should be forbidden 17:05 < nsf> maybe you're targeting one platform only 17:05 < wrtp> you can do it - as you are, in fact 17:05 -!- jingzuo [~brandon@h159.123.255.206.cable.thlq.cablelynx.com] has left #go-nuts [] 17:05 < wrtp> but you have to use unsafe 17:05 < nsf> I can, yes 17:05 < wrtp> which it is 17:05 < nsf> even Sizeof is in unsafe :D 17:05 < nsf> portability is unsafe 17:05 < nsf> :D 17:06 < Ginto8> it shouldn't be 17:06 < wrtp> and the language shouldn't be twisted to accommodate that mode of usage 17:06 < nsf> "unsafe" is just a very funny word for that 17:06 < nsf> wrtp: true 17:06 < nsf> but see how cgo does that 17:06 < nsf> it makes alignment for you using array of bytes 17:06 < Ginto8> wrtp, a single method of causing a struct to be packed would work perfectly 17:06 < nsf> isn't that ugly? 17:07 < nsf> as far as I understand Go pads struct only at the end 17:07 < Ginto8> nsf, I'm fond of byte arrays, but that's just cuz I'm a C programmer at heart =/ 17:07 < nsf> not between members 17:07 -!- rv2733 [~ron@c-98-242-168-49.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:07 < nsf> Ginto8: well, I'm too sort of.. I think it is reasonable to use []byte in NRGBA, RGBA, etc. 17:08 < nsf> and now I know exactly why 17:08 < Ginto8> yep 17:09 -!- tvw [~tv@e176004151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 17:10 < wrtp> i haven't checked but i'd guess it pads as necessary inside structs too 17:11 < wrtp> so the alignment of b in struct {a byte; b int} would still be sizeof(int) 17:11 < Ginto8> so that they can have good pointers 17:11 < Ginto8> that behave 17:12 < wrtp> many processors require aligned access 17:12 < Ginto8> yep 17:12 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12 < nsf> wrtp: I'm not sure about that 17:13 < nsf> because cgo is doing exactly this: struct {a byte; pad0 [3]byte; b int; } 17:13 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:14 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 17:15 < vrtical> Even if Go compilers for current architectures don't pad structs, it wouldn't seem unreasonable to leave it as a possibility. 17:15 < vrtical> Just reading data into a struct is fundamentally unportable (though obviously you'll often want to di it if you can) 17:19 -!- ShadowIce [pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 < wrtp> nsf: http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=884 17:22 < wrtp> it's easy to check 17:22 < nsf> I'll star it 17:23 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:23 < wrtp> i accidentally submitted twice 'cos the web page hung, so you might want to wait until one gets deleted. 17:23 < nsf> I'll star both :D 17:23 -!- thiagon [~thiagon@150.164.2.20] has joined #go-nuts 17:24 -!- thiagon [~thiagon@150.164.2.20] has left #go-nuts [] 17:25 < wrtp> http://paste.lisp.org/+2E9Y 17:25 < wrtp> prints 0x30d30 0x30d34 17:26 < wrtp> which implies that, yes, members are padded as you'd expect 17:27 < nsf> hm.. interesting 17:28 -!- deso [~deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 20:41 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 20:43 -!- Ginto8 [~Ginto8@pool-72-82-235-34.cmdnnj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:45 -!- ExtraSpice [~ExtraSpic@78-62-86-161.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49 -!- zozoR [~zozoR@0x5da69cf2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1105.hsnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Morten. Desu~] 20:51 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:1141:2349:13c1:3469] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:01 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:03 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:04 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:05 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 21:08 -!- ShadowIce [pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 21:09 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:16 -!- bmizerany [~bmizerany@dsl081-064-072.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:18 -!- ShadowIce [pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:21 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Quit: LeNsTR] 21:22 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:25 -!- gpolo [~gpolo@189.58.44.99.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #go-nuts 21:26 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 21:29 -!- Shyde [~shyde@HSI-KBW-078-043-070-132.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Shyde] 21:29 < gpolo> hi there. I have been comparing some design issues between Go and Lua and I just made it public at: http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B53echtied7cZWEzNTNjYzctYzA3OS00Y2QzLTg1ZWUtZDc5MjFkZDA3MTRm&hl=en 21:30 < gpolo> it is in portuguese btw, but maybe someone is interested on reading it and giving some feedback 21:32 < uriel> gpolo: I don't know, but the goals of Go and Lua seem to me to be completely different 21:32 < uriel> actually, I have trouble thinking of two languages with more different goals (other than extrmeley domain specific languages, or rather esoteric stuff) 21:35 < gpolo> uriel: indeed, the goals are very different 21:36 < uriel> gpolo: I don't know portuguese, but so far I'm at slide 13, and seems ok 21:37 < uriel> when you refer to 'object oriented', it would be good to clarify in the case of Go, because it is not the same kind of OO that most people are used to 21:37 < uriel> (nor is it 'protypical' OO as in lua) 21:38 < uriel> also, the lists of influences, while not really wrong, is a bit strange, in lua mentioning C++ is weird, and seems too focused on syntactical details 21:38 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38 < uriel> (CSP/limbo/alef influence is more substantive) 21:42 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43 -!- terrex [~terrex@226.38.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #go-nuts 21:45 < gpolo> uriel: I tried to not make up stuff, I took this list of influences for Lua from an article from its creator 21:46 < gpolo> uriel: when you say too focused on syntactical details are you referring to the phrases on this same slide of languages that influenced Lua ? 21:46 < gpolo> (sorry for the delay, was away) 21:48 -!- perdix [~perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #go-nuts 21:48 < gpolo> the other notes have been taken, thanks 21:49 -!- terrex [~terrex@226.38.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50 -!- ioricloud [~henrique@unaffiliated/ioricloud] has left #go-nuts ["Ex-Chat"] 21:52 < uriel> gpolo: yea, as I said, my portuguese is not very good, but that is the impression I got.. 21:52 < uriel> will continue reading the slides later, need to take care of some stuff first 21:52 < gpolo> you are right, you are good at guessing if you can't read portuguese at all heh 21:52 < gpolo> thanks for your time uriel 21:53 < gpolo> and for the feedback of course 21:55 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has joined #go-nuts 21:58 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 22:11 -!- gpolo [~gpolo@189.58.44.99.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: gpolo] 22:15 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 22:16 -!- mbarkhau [~koloss@dslb-084-059-163-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17 -!- General13372 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:17 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d2FC9 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- gob: add support for complex numbers 22:21 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:33 -!- gpolo [~gpolo@200.201.110.247] has joined #go-nuts 22:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d2H1V by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ -- fmt.Scan: fix handling of EOFs. 22:41 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:43 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 22:43 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 22:51 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@f052191235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leave the magic to Houdini] 22:54 -!- marsu [~marsu@93.12.59.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:55 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-71-191-173-125.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:56 -!- nighty^ [~nighty@x122091.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:56 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.70.156] has quit [Quit: wrtp] 23:02 -!- korfuri [~korfuri@eth0.korfuri.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:03 -!- korfuri [~korfuri@eth0.korfuri.fr] has joined #go-nuts 23:03 < gpolo> (sorry if this is spam here) that pdf I sent earlier can now be accessed at: http://www.slideshare.net/secret/bbFf6mQx6p5E02 (transcript included so it might help a bit in translating to english) 23:11 -!- rv2733 [~ron@c-98-242-168-49.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:29 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30 -!- iLeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 23:33 -!- carrus85 [~carrus85@64.0.193.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:34 -!- jb55 [~jb55@bas11-kitchener06-1176452138.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #go-nuts 23:39 -!- rv2733 [~ron@c-98-242-168-49.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:41 -!- tvw [~tv@e176004151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41 -!- ikke [~ikke@187.53.200.202] has joined #go-nuts 23:41 -!- ikke [~ikke@187.53.200.202] has quit [Changing host] 23:41 -!- ikke [~ikke@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has joined #go-nuts 23:46 -!- gpolo [~gpolo@200.201.110.247] has quit [Quit: gpolo] 23:48 -!- Eridius [~kevin@unaffiliated/eridius] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:58 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.191.224] has joined #go-nuts --- Log closed Fri Jun 25 00:00:12 2010