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14:55 < HollyRain> when you have a struct with more than 10 fields, is
better make them public than to add functions to get/set those fields?
14:55 < Ginto8_> HollyRain, why would you need methods to get/set?
14:55 < Ginto8_> you're thinking too much with OOP
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15:06 < jessta> HollyRain: that depends on what the struct is for
15:07 < jessta> get/set methods are usually a sign of a bad design
15:07 < HollyRain> in java is usually used
15:07 < jessta> java is usually a sign of a bad design
15:08 < Ginto8_> HollyRain, Java is overly OOP
15:08 < Ginto8_> Go is only OOP in the weakest of sense
15:08 < jessta> you're better off making methods that set or get the fields
for a specific reason
15:08 < Ginto8_> it draws mostly from C
15:09 < Ginto8_> Unless you need something special to happen when you change
those fields, don't have get/set methods
15:09 < HollyRain> I need them to encode data to json, at the end I'm making
public fields
15:13 < Ginto8_> how about you have it satisfy io.Writer
15:13 < Ginto8_> and have a Write() function to encode the data
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15:16 < HollyRain> Ginto8_: it isn't generic because it's possible that I've
to make different changes in each struct
15:17 < HollyRain> a common change that I've to do is i.e.  if I do public
fields (like 'Name'), I need it in lower case 'name' for Json
15:18 < HollyRain> the solution more simple is to have another struct with
the names to use for the Json output
15:24 < jessta> HollyRain: I think you can use labels for that
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15:29 < Soultaker> wouldn't the analogous thing to JSON objects be Go maps?
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17:27 < drhodes> Can packages built with cgo span multiple files?  Of the
packages I've seen they've consisted of just one go file.
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18:05 < Ginto8_> drhodes, yes but you don't necessarily want to have a large
number of packages accessing unsafe C
18:11 < Ginto8_> s/packages/files
18:20 < drhodes> ok Ginto8_, thanks.  I'll keep that in mind.
18:20 < Ginto8_> I have at least 3 files in my lib that use cgo
18:21 < Ginto8_> but beyond that I intend to use the abstraction functions
from those files to access all the C stuff
18:22 < drhodes> did you have to modify the Makefile at all for cgo work
correctly?
18:22 < Ginto8_> yeah
18:22 < Ginto8_> CGOFILES=\
18:22 < Ginto8_> ...
18:22 < Ginto8_> then
18:22 < Ginto8_> uhh...
18:22 < Ginto8_> CGO_LDFLAGS=
18:23 < Ginto8_> if you need any special libs
18:23 < drhodes> Well, I've got that much, but I'm wondering if cgo needs a
special flag for packages with multiple files
18:23 < Ginto8_> nope
18:24 < Ginto8_> I think cgo acts a lot like normal gc
18:24 < Ginto8_> all the files from the same package are compiled at once
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18:24 < Ginto8_> I think you can even have cgo files and gc files in the
same package as well
18:24 < Ginto8_> that's what I did
18:25 < drhodes> Ok, very good, thanks!
18:25 < Ginto8> np glad I could help
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19:52 < Ideal> Hi, how to replace one substring with another in string ?
19:54 < Ideal> there is functions for that in regexp package, but is it
possible to do that without them ?
19:54 < Ideal> there are*
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19:59 < Ideal> aha, found mailing list posts about that..
20:00 < exch> Ideal: result :=
string(bytes.Join(bytes.Split([]byte(haystack), []byte(needle), 0),
[]byte(replacement)))
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20:03 < vrtical> beautiful code :-)
20:03 < Ginto8> vrtical, it's the price you pay for a strong static typing
system
20:04 < exch> it's fast and it works :)
20:04 < Ideal> exch: thanks..  maybe i bench it against versions here
http://bit.ly/aMUjPZ, pretty interesting to see the results
20:05 < exch> I tried the for {} loop thing myself first.  this is
definitely faster
20:05 * Ideal is benchmarking
20:05 < Soultaker> it probably depends a lot on the choice of input.
20:05 < Ginto8> exch, yeah copy() is probably used, which most likely uses
some of the same optimizations that C's memcpy() uses
20:05 < exch> suppose that's true
20:06 < Soultaker> seems like Go could use a lot of improvement in the
string processing department.  there isn't even a fast string search algorithm
implemented.
20:07 < Soultaker> by the way, did I read correctly that range over a string
yields unicode code points, not bytes?  that's pretty nifty.
20:08 < Ginto8> it's how it should be
20:08 < Ginto8> it's encoded in utf8 so runes can be 1-4 bytes in size, so
it's impractical to go one byte at a time
20:08 < Soultaker> probably so, but most Unicode support in Go seems to boil
down to "we have a byte strings; just encode everything UTF-8" ;-)
20:09 < Soultaker> string indexing and length operations still operate on
bytes, not characters.
20:09 < Soultaker> - a
20:09 < Ginto8> yes but that is there for a reason
20:09 < Ginto8> strings are treated as immutable []byte's
20:10 < Soultaker> yea I know, which is why I thought Go's claimed unicode
support was a bit of a scam =)
20:10 < Ginto8> is len() gave the length of the string in characters, and
indexing accessed a single character, it would completely mess up the []byte
compatibility
20:10 < Ginto8> and []byte's are used as dynamic strings
20:10 < Soultaker> well sure.  then you'd need a separate data type for
(text!) strings
20:13 < Ideal> exch: the latest version in that thread in ml a bit faster,
0m1.908s vs 0m1.619s on 1M iters
20:14 < Ideal> exch: but second version there slower..  still, thank you :)
20:16 < Ideal> is it a good idea would be to submit an issue to go's issue
tracker so such a function added to string package ?
20:17 < Ideal> i mean string replace
20:18 < exch> It's probably been mentioned a few times before.  Among other
missing functions.  Not sure what the reasoning was for leaving them out, but
there was one back then.  You could always try again of course
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20:20 < Ideal> hm, maybe it was mentioned, but seems like i don't see it in
issue tracker
20:21 < Ideal> okay, lets try
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20:30 < Ideal> okay here it is for the record http://bit.ly/91L7OE
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22:21 < vrtical> Soultaker: to be fair, some of us happen to feel that utf-8
everywhere is *the* solution to character encoding :-)
22:21 < vrtical> Out of interest, does Go have libraries yet for dealing
with different encodings?
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22:27 < Namegduf> Indexing on character vs byte isn't so much a question of
"Unicode support" as "Do you really want string indexing to be O(n)"
22:28 < Soultaker> err, ever heard of Java or Python?
22:28 < Namegduf> I'm familiar with both.  Not sure what your point is.
22:29 < Soultaker> that they allow constant time string indexing ;)
22:29 < Namegduf> Then they don't store strings as UTF-8
22:29 < Soultaker> no, exactly.
22:29 < Namegduf> I'm not sure what your point is
22:29 < Soultaker> I was wondering that about you tbh =)
22:30 < Namegduf> My point is that your complaint that a lack of character
indexing somehow means it lacks proper Unicode support
22:30 < Namegduf> Is nonsensical, stupid, and conflictory with the nature of
the declared support
22:31 < Namegduf> As it would conflict with the part where they state UTF-8
is used, or sane speed
22:31 < Soultaker> depends on what you mean by "support" but by that logic I
haven't used a programming language in my life without Unicode support, because
all support storing UTF-8 encoded data in byte arrays.
22:32 < Namegduf> I would assume support would mean the string operation
functions operate as described on Unicode.
22:32 < Namegduf> Thus "supporting" Unicode.
22:32 < Soultaker> I guess it depends on what you expect.
22:33 < Soultaker> I expected roughly the same operations on Unicode strings
that I used on ASCII strings for decades.
22:33 < Soultaker> e.g.  strlen(), s[i] to get the i'th character, etc.
22:33 < Namegduf> You're not going to get that, because that isn't how
computers work.
22:33 < Soultaker> Java provides that.  Python provides that.
22:33 < Namegduf> Then they use UTF-32 strings.
22:33 < Namegduf> Because not even UTF-16 can do that.
22:33 < Namegduf> Thanks to surrogate pairs.
22:34 < Soultaker> Java does UTF-16 I think.  Not sure about Python (I think
there was an option to use UCS-4)
22:34 < Namegduf> UTF-16 "almost" does it, which is good enough for it to
work until you look away.
22:34 < Namegduf> (Characters that use surrogate pairs are rare)
22:35 < Namegduf> In reality, however, it's like UTF-8 in that you're
indexing by sub-character units- it's just almost all characters fit in one unit.
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22:38 < Soultaker> in practice that does make a huge difference.
22:38 < Namegduf> There is no algorithm for providing constant-time indexing
by character where characters are not constant length that I've ever heard of, and
no language is going to be able to make that problem go away for you.  Need to
pick either not having constant-time indexing, having fixed-length characters, or
not indexing by character.  UTF-16 has people weirdly pretend characters are
constant length by defining surrogate pairs as multiple characters, which I figu
22:38 < Namegduf> I'm not sure of anywhere it makes any difference at all.
22:38 < Namegduf> But "whatever you say".
22:38 < Soultaker> for the record, both my python 2 and 3 install use 4-byte
characters (although it's configurable at compiletime)
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22:40 < Namegduf> My point is that it is unrealistic to define Unicode
support in a manner that requires terrible inefficiency to implement.
22:41 < Namegduf> I mean, being *able* to index by character is a reasonable
expectation, but Go can do that.
22:41 < Namegduf> Just not by normal indexing.
22:42 < Namegduf> One way or another, it's expensive, though, so defining
support as requiring that normal string operations suffer that inefficiency as an
assist to the programmer...
22:43 < Soultaker> I guess it's a choice.  Go already has byte slices which
are perfectly fine containers of UTF-8 encoded data, which can be indexed by byte,
of which you can take the length in bytes, et cetera.
22:43 < Soultaker> having a string type that's basically a non-modifiable
byte slice is a bit of a let-down.
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22:44 < Soultaker> but you said yourself: indexing and string length are
going to be linear time operations on Go strings
22:44 < Soultaker> so you're trading memory inefficiency (a constant factor)
for time inefficiency (at least in some cases)
22:47 < Soultaker> if only Go supported operator overloading (or any
overloading) then I could do `type mystring []int' and define the appropriate
methods =)
22:48 < Soultaker> not really the same since slices aren't immutable, but
OK.
22:48 < Namegduf> Huh?
22:48 < Namegduf> No.
22:48 < Namegduf> Nothing to do with Go.
22:49 < Soultaker> Hmm?
22:49 < Namegduf> UTF-8 strings are constant time indexing by byte, or
linear by character.
22:49 < Soultaker> yes.
22:49 < Namegduf> UTF-32 can be constant time for both, but involve a hefty
memory cost.
22:50 < cenuij> There's still a real world bunfight about not using UTF-8?
22:50 < Soultaker> at most a 357% overhead, if you only use ASCII.
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22:50 < Namegduf> Right, yes.  "hefty" isn't quite big enough a word to
cover that.
22:51 < Namegduf> That is just how things work.
22:51 < Namegduf> You get to pick.
22:51 < Soultaker> for people in Asia the overhead is only 33%
22:51 < Namegduf> Assuming they never use spaces or puncutation, yes.
22:51 < Namegduf> Angry, angry text.
22:51 < Soultaker> the overhead for Americans is only so large because ASCII
is so compact.  But UTF-8 is highly biased towards ASCII.
22:51 < Namegduf> Still quite a lot.
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22:52 < Namegduf> That's like saying it's only so large because ASCII is so
good by size.
22:52 < Soultaker> but that is true.
22:52 < Namegduf> It doesn't matter.  They're being compared against each
other.
22:53 < Soultaker> if you're processing, say, mostly chinese, switching from
UTF-8 to {Java,Python}'s UTF-16 saves you 33%
22:53 < Namegduf> Assuming they don't use punctuatino.
22:53 < Namegduf> But UTF-16 doesn't give you constant time indexing by
character.
22:53 < Namegduf> So I'm not sure what your point is.
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22:54 < Soultaker> the point is that you say people should switch from using
Java (2 bytes per character) to Go (variable bytes per character)
22:54 < Namegduf> No.
22:54 < Namegduf> I'm saying Go provides perfectly fine Unicode support.
22:54 < Namegduf> There's a number of compromises involved inherently in
handling Unicode.
22:55 < Soultaker> I'm sure that coming from Java, it's a step down.  coming
from Python it definitely is.
22:55 < Namegduf> You can have indexing by character by default, but one way
or another, it costs.  To say a language which does not pay this cost by default
is not supporting Unicode is incorrect.
22:56 < Soultaker> I'm not debating any of this.
22:56 < Soultaker> Though I'm not a fan of call people "incorrect" when
we're discussing ill-defined concepts like "Unicode support"
22:56 < Namegduf> Okay, then that's agreed, we can move on...  I would agree
that it is harder to use strings in Go, but Go's also faster.
22:57 < Soultaker> For some operations, may be.  For others it'll be a lot
slower.
22:57 < Namegduf> Vs something using UTF-32 or UTF-16 in some cases, with
the fact they're paying a big memory overhead, yes.
22:58 < Soultaker> really, it depends on your requirements.
22:58 < Soultaker> If you want speed, than Java is probably a whole lot
faster than Go for most tasks.
22:59 < Namegduf> Well, yes- if your requirements involve a great deal of
indexing by character.
22:59 < Namegduf> Very, very few requirements do.
22:59 < Soultaker> If you want convenience, than Python definitely is a lot
slower than Go, but the goal of that language is not speed.
22:59 < Namegduf> Java is unacceptable for my use due to terrible
performance in aspects other than CPU usage.
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22:59 < Namegduf> (RAM, mostly.  It runs my VPSes out of it.)
23:01 < Soultaker> And how many of that is string data?  :P
23:01 < Namegduf> No idea
23:01 < Namegduf> A lot, probably
23:01 < Namegduf> The last thing I tried using Java was a JS minification
script
23:01 < cenuij> there are surely lessons to be learned from the various java
VM's.  I recently ran a reproduction of a blog net/perofrmance bench and when I
disabled the Go GC i recouped almost 40%
23:01 < Namegduf> The speed difference between Java and Go is largely one of
implementation rather than language, however
23:02 < cenuij> that cant be true, go points into things java never does
23:02 < Namegduf> Huh?
23:02 < Namegduf> "points into things"?
23:02 < Namegduf> Which pointers into what, and how do they hurt?
23:03 < Namegduf> I mean, certain things will inherently differ- such as
indexing by character when surrogate pairs can be safely ignored, but largely the
specification of Go has few inherent reasons to be slow.
23:04 < Namegduf> Or so I thought, anyway.
23:04 < Soultaker> I'm not so sure about the channels, but OK.
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23:04 < Soultaker> one inherent reason could the lack of generics support.
23:04 < Namegduf> Well, yeah, and Go idioms vs Java idioms for speed is
going to be a bloody fight not worth getting into.
23:05 < Soultaker> so there's two already =)
23:05 < Namegduf> I'm not sure about the generics support
23:05 < Namegduf> I mean, you think it might mean there's two copies of code
in place of one copy?
23:06 < Namegduf> I guess you could argue that it could make a difference in
some particularly bad cases, but I'm not sure it's significant enough to count.
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23:06 < Soultaker> for one, converting things into interface{}'s adds
overhead; in many scenarios there must be an additional object allocated on the
heap.
23:07 < Namegduf> No
23:07 < Namegduf> An interface is a pointer on steroids
23:07 < Soultaker> the second problem is that with interfaces instead of
generics, a lot of function calls cannot be resolved at compiletime.
23:07 < Namegduf> And can readily be stack-allocated
23:08 < Soultaker> Namegduf: if you have (say) a binary tree of
interface{}'s, than every node contains an interface{} structure which has a
pointer to a data item which is allocated separately, isn't it?
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23:08 < Soultaker> that's double the allocations right there (though not
necessarily double the memory use)
23:09 < Soultaker> and I think there's an optimization for types not larger
than a pointer, which is probably nice.
23:09 < Namegduf> Soultaker: True if you would otherwise be storing the
object themselves in the tree.
23:09 < cenuij> throw in some dependancy on a few reflection values.
23:09 < Namegduf> If you would have been storing a pointer in the tree, no
change.
23:10 < cenuij> and the end result is...  a ternary tree in assembly,
implemented in Go
23:10 < Soultaker> but to get back at the "second point": the lack of being
able to resolve function calls statically means that you also lose the opportunity
for inlining or for keeping variables in registers and such.
23:10 < cenuij> GG
23:10 < Soultaker> cenuij: I have no idea what you are suggesting :)
23:11 < cenuij> I am suggesting all this talk about inefficiencies of MB
string encoding is a waste of breath, time & keystrokes
23:12 < Soultaker> we're not even on the subject of string encoding anymore,
FY ;-)
23:12 < Soultaker> +I
23:12 < Soultaker> hehe, FY suggests something entirely different than I
meant to say =)
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 27 00:00:12 2010