--- Log opened Tue Jun 29 00:00:12 2010
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00:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d8gL3 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- gob:
add DecodeValue and EncodeValue
00:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d8gLe by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/netchan/ --
netchan: use gob DecodeValue to eliminate the need for a pointer value
00:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d8gLv by [Ian Lance Taylor] in 11 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/ -- Only catch all signals if os/signal package imported.
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01:03 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d8j5T by [Nigel Tao] in
go/src/pkg/exp/draw/x11/ -- exp/draw/x11: implement the mapping from keycodes to
keysyms.
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03:01 < anschelsc> I've been having a problem with cov
03:01 < jessta> problem?
03:01 < anschelsc> when I run it on my code (on Linux x86) it pauses for a
long time and then comes up with this error message:
03:02 < anschelsc> /home/anschel/bin/6cov: cannot read pc: can't translate
address 90
03:03 < anschelsc> the "code" in question here is just 25 lines
03:03 < anschelsc> I'm just trying to learn how cov works, and I have no
idea what this means
03:07 < anschelsc> has anyone else seen a problem like this?
03:08 < Ginto8> well you're saying x86 but you're using something with a 6
prefix
03:08 < Ginto8> maybe you want 8cov
03:09 < jessta> Ginto8: apparantly they are the same thing
03:09 < jessta> "For reasons of disambiguation it is installed as 6cov
although it also serves as an 8cov and a 5cov."
03:10 < Ginto8> yeah I just saw that
03:14 < KirkMcDonald> Man, I'd completely forgotten about that code
review...
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12:06 < nf> KirkMcDonald: :)
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12:25 < Ideal> Hi, i'm wondering is it writes everything correctly in this
code:
12:25 < Ideal> fmt.Printf("%s", strings.Split("test/another/last", "/",
1)[0])
12:26 < Ideal> it writes the whole string test/another/last, while i
personally expected just "test"
12:26 < Ideal> ?
12:29 < Ideal> at least in python it behaves that similar way, just for
test:
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12:29 < Ideal> 'test/another/last'.split('/', 1)
12:29 < Ideal> results in ['test', 'another/last']
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12:30 < vrtical> Ideal: I could be wrong (huge noob) but is the 1 in the
Split call breaking it into _one_ substring (i.e.  no change)?
12:31 < vrtical> => try it with 2?
12:32 < Ideal> vrtical: yea, with 2 it works as with i personally would
expect with 1..  if to strictly read docs "If n > 0, Split splits s into at
most n substrings" - this can be understood as it will do actual split anyway,
even with 1, but it doesn't..
12:33 < bartbes> it later says the rest is in the last one
12:33 < bartbes> if there is only 1 that is the last one
12:33 < Ideal> yea, but still that quote above has it's own meaning - split
should be done anyway
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12:34 < Ideal> or at least it sounds a bit tricky then regarding actual
results..
12:35 < jessta> 10-06-29 22:27 <monkeyzee> was she hawt?  a woman, you
say?
12:35 < jessta> oh my!
12:35 < jessta> that's not good
12:36 < jessta> sorry chaps, the cat jumped on my mouse
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12:37 < vrtical> Ideal: I did exactly the same thing the first time I tried
to use it.  I think it's confusing but there are probably arguments either way.
12:38 < jessta> well, you have to return the reminder of the string in the
string array
12:38 < jessta> and it would be really weird to ask for a string array with
one element and get 2
12:39 < Ideal> jessta: well, as for me what you ask is - how much splits you
want, not about array lenght..
12:40 < jessta> split this in to 1 piece
12:40 < jessta> sounds reasonable
12:41 < Ideal> like that..  and it interprets n seems like the way you said
about array length..
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12:41 < Ideal> vrtical: yea..  looking to strings package tests seems like
its intentional this way..
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12:42 < jessta> Ideal: no, it splits the string in to one piece
12:42 < jessta> i.e the original string
12:43 < jessta> cut this pizza in to 1 pieces
12:43 < Ideal> jessta: well, as for me original string != splitted to one
piece string
12:43 < Ideal> no actual splitting was done
12:43 < bartbes> I think jessta's example is spot on
12:43 < bartbes> you don't ask it to split 1 time, you ask it to split into
1 string
12:43 < Ideal> dunno, for example python way/example above thinks about it
differently
12:44 < Ideal> so actual splitting done
12:44 < bartbes> python is never an argument :P
12:44 < bartbes> (was a joke, for all python fans..)
12:44 < Ideal> dunno, looking that Go is quite much inspired by python
12:45 < Ideal> okay, in the end seems like you just have to live with the
way it is, just a Go's specific..
12:45 < bartbes> well, but jessta also mentioned array size, which is
important in a statically typed language
12:45 < Ideal> maybe..
12:45 < bartbes> in python you don't have to worry about the array size, so
who cares if there's one extra
12:46 < jessta> bartbes: no so much, since it's actually a slice
12:46 < jessta> *not
12:46 < bartbes> but those still have bounds
12:46 < jessta> but not statically
12:47 < Ideal> thanks for discussion guys :)
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13:55 < Ideal> is there a simple way to check whether array has a specific
value, like "var in array" ?
13:56 < Ginto8> contains a specific value?
13:56 < Ginto8> yes
13:56 < nsf> as far as I know - there is no such way
13:56 < Ginto8> well actually
13:56 < Ideal> :)
13:57 < Ginto8> not unless you do your own loop
13:57 < nsf> Go is not a python
13:57 < jessta> ...and wrap that loop in a function
13:57 < Ideal> i see..  okay, thank you
13:57 < Ginto8> for _,v := range array { if v == blarg { found = true; break
} }
13:57 < Ginto8> jessta, but it would have to be templated =/
13:58 < jessta> Ginto8: for the standard library, yes
13:58 < Ideal> Ginto8: maybe you know already about it, i already seen a
package for templates..
13:58 < nsf> you don't need templates in Go
13:58 < nsf> even if you think you do
13:58 < nsf> :)
13:59 < Ideal> well, if someone already wrote a package for that..
13:59 < Ginto8> nsf, I know that
13:59 < nsf> probably because he was doing the same thing as you do
13:59 < nsf> trying to write in Go like in other language (e.g.  python)
13:59 < Kashia> well, Go people just do the code-copying it manually....  if
you look at the vector code
13:59 < Ginto8> but it would have to be a []interface{} rather than a []T
13:59 < Ginto8> Kashia, they just did that for optimization of more common
types
14:00 < Kashia> which doesn't make it less true :P
14:00 < nsf> templates don't solve any real problem except that one that
forces you to type more
14:00 < nsf> but you know..  C++ just compiles too long (using that time you
could actually make more code)
14:00 < jessta> they solve a lot of problems
14:00 < Ginto8> nsf, you're right on
14:01 < nsf> jessta: no
14:01 < jessta> C++ just does it wrong
14:01 < Ginto8> they remove a lot of tedium
14:01 < Ginto8> but aside from that
14:01 < Ginto8> they don't do much
14:01 < nsf> well show me the lang that does it right: java, C#, D?
14:02 < jessta> it's difficult to get right
14:02 < Ginto8> D did it BETTER
14:02 < Ginto8> still did it bad
14:02 < nsf> the thing is, that actually you need one template in a
language..  and it's std::vector (as GCC codebase shows us)
14:03 < nsf> but in Go we have built-in arrays and slices
14:03 < nsf> and even maps
14:03 < Ginto8> yeah
14:03 < Ginto8> go has most of the stuff you'd need a template for builtin
and easy to use
14:03 < nsf> and it's like the need of 80% of code that otherwise requires
templates
14:04 < jessta> the loss of compile time type safety isn't ideal
14:04 < nsf> other 20%, well..  you can write a code generator in python or
something
14:04 < nsf> or use 'got'
14:04 < nsf> http://github.com/droundy/gotgo
14:04 < jessta> gotgo does it pretty good
14:04 < Ginto8> yeah
14:05 < Ginto8> gotgo is pretty nice with that
14:05 < jessta> I like how they use the import
14:05 < jessta> import "list(int)"
14:06 < nsf> gotgo is a way it supposed to be in C++ imho, e.g.  a type safe
preprocessor, the problem is that you can't easily parse C/C++ code and make a
tool like that
14:06 < nsf> Go has none of these problems
14:06 < nsf> what I mean basically is that template is not a part of the
language
14:07 < nsf> is a tool that generates more code
14:07 < Ginto8> yep
14:07 < jessta> if enough code gets written that requires that tool then it
becames part of the language
14:07 < nsf> getting it to the language would be a mistake
14:07 < Ginto8> the issue with C++ templating is that C++ syntax is such a
bitch to parse
14:08 < Ginto8> if it wasn't, it would probably have been a lot more like
gotgo, methinks
14:08 < nsf> jessta: the language also matters a lot not just as a pile of
different concepts, but as a composition of them, templates are garbage in that
sense
14:09 < nsf> D has failed in that way
14:09 < nsf> (for example) :)
14:09 < Ginto8> D has failed in a lot more than just templating, but that's
a different issue =P
14:10 < nsf> it matters because language affect the way you think and making
your programs..  take a look at all those C++ template zealots (like boost library
a good example of that), they just can't stop doing it..
14:11 < Ginto8> yeah
14:11 < Ginto8> it's like goroutines
14:11 < nsf> and interfaces :)
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14:12 < Ginto8> yep
14:12 < nsf> interfaces are good, no doubts..  but I think they are overused
sometimes
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14:12 < Ginto8> though for the most part the core concepts of programming
are the same, the nearly-core concepts are what really affect your designs
14:12 < Ginto8> nsf, there are times when overuse isn't actually a bad thing
14:13 < Ginto8> it's still overuse, but it isn't all bad
14:13 < nsf> well I won't judge that, I don't know the 100% answer :) (e.g.
a silver bullet to software design)
14:13 < nsf> I'm telling only things that "feels" right :)
14:14 < Ideal> Ginto8: i'd say balance and enough are "normal", all the rest
is well, well..  :) in any field, not just in programming..
14:14 < Ginto8> interfaces do allow a way to deal with one of go's little
annoyances
14:15 < Ginto8> you can't copy structs that have private fields outside of
the package they're from, so interfaces are the best way to pass em around
14:15 < Ginto8> Ideal, yes, but unfortunately overuse is very vaguely
defined
14:15 < nsf> what's wrong with struct pointers?
14:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d8RiX by [Alex Brainman] in
go/src/pkg/runtime/windows/386/ -- runtime: fix windows build
14:16 < Ginto8> nsf, nothing, but if you don't want it on the heap...
14:16 < nsf> if you use interface it is on the heap
14:16 < nsf> a lot of things in Go are on the heap
14:17 < Ginto8> ah well
14:17 < nsf> but it's just a matter of performance, I'm talking mostly about
design decisions anyway
14:17 * Ginto8 wishes there were better ways to keep stuff on the stack
14:17 < nsf> when you define one interface and one implementation for it
14:17 < nsf> you're doing something wrong
14:18 < nsf> (most likely)
14:18 < Ideal> Ginto8: as for me subjective estimation quite okay, at least
in this case
14:18 < Ginto8> nsf, it depends.  Sometimes that is simply a way of allowing
extensibility
14:20 < nsf> Ginto8: it's a wrong way of designing things..  it should be
always that way: 1.  you're doing concrete things, 2.  if there are similar enough
two concrete things you're considering making an abstraction that connects them
14:20 < nsf> not 1.  define abstraction, 2.  define implementation
14:20 < nsf> it's a typical mistake of all modern OO bullshit :)
14:20 < Ginto8> hmm good point
14:20 * Ginto8 goes to change some of his design
14:20 < jessta> Ginto8: better escape analysis will likely make the stack
stuff better
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14:22 < jessta> it's something you can fix much later
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14:24 < Ginto8> hm ok
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14:53 < nsf> hehe, I've just noticed that the bug I found affects all cgo
calls too
14:53 < nsf> not just the case when runtime.LockOSThread() involved
14:53 < nsf> because cgo calls use the same locking mechanics as
LockOSThread
14:54 < nsf> and actually they share the bug
14:55 < nsf> on the other hand cgo isn't supposed to use mcache, so it's a
questionable statement
14:58 < wrtp> nsf: if you use an interface it's only on the heap if the data
size is > word size
14:59 < nsf> wrtp: well, we were talking about structs..  so I was assuming
that it is most likely on the heap
14:59 < wrtp> small structs aren't that uncommon, i guess.
15:00 < nsf> the fact that interface doesn't have "*" in it's type doesn't
make it a non pointer..  interface is a reference value in general
15:00 < nsf> wrtp: maybe
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15:03 < wrtp> that's a bit of an over-generalisation :-) depends what you
mean by reference value, i guess
15:05 < wrtp> if you've got func()(i int){func(){i = 99}(); return}, would
you count i as a reference value?
15:05 < nsf> nope
15:06 < nsf> what I mean by ref value is that if you're taking interface
from a struct pointer and then copy it to another interface
15:06 < nsf> they both pointing at the same struct
15:07 < wrtp> only if size of the struct is greater than the size of a
word...
15:07 < nsf> but well, yep, I'm using a struct pointer here :)
15:07 < nsf> oh..
15:07 < nsf> ok, then I was a bit wrong
15:07 < wrtp> for instance, on a 64 bit machine, draw.Point fits neatly into
an interface, cos it's just two ints
15:08 < wrtp> it's easy to verify, using unsafe and printing out the actual
bytes in the interface
15:08 < nsf> imho it actually shows that you should not use interface a lot
:)
15:08 < nsf> especially in case of simple types
15:09 < wrtp> i dunno.  it's pretty cheap to copy around two words
15:09 < wrtp> and nothing compared to the number of arguments that you see
being passed in many microsoft functions...
15:09 < nsf> there are things like generic containers which use interface{}
and they expect an interface to be a reference value
15:10 < nsf> in your case they won't work
15:10 < wrtp> have you got an example?
15:10 < nsf> well, it's just about the similar behaviour, when I use
interface{} I consider it as void* + type info
15:11 < nsf> but as you've pointed out it's not exactly like that
15:11 < nsf> well it is, but it may store that actual value in a pointer :)
15:11 < nsf> the*
15:12 < wrtp> it's really struct{union{uchar data[Wordsize]; void *v} u;
Type *type}
15:12 < nsf> yep
15:12 < wrtp> but what do you mean when you talk about generic containers
expecting an interface to be a reference value?
15:13 < nsf> I think it was me expecting an interface to be a ref value :)
15:13 < wrtp> ah
15:13 < nsf> so I was wrong again
15:13 < nsf> sorry
15:13 < wrtp> np.  in general it shouldn't matter.
15:13 < wrtp> the real issue is comparability
15:14 < wrtp> because if type T is comparable, then struct{T} is not, which
means that encapsulation doesn't work in general
15:15 < nsf> I see
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15:22 < Ginto8> wrtp, but it's possible to compare
15:22 < Ginto8> var x T
15:22 < Ginto8> var y struct{T}
15:22 < Ginto8> x == y.T would be valid
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15:30 < wrtp> Ginto8: yes, but the important point is that.  interface{}(y)
== interface{}(y) is invalid, even though x == x is valid
15:31 < Ginto8> are there even any definite comparisons of interface types?
15:31 < wrtp> yes
15:31 < wrtp> you can compare any two interface types that have the same
*static* interface type and have comparable dynamic types
15:32 < Ginto8> oh ok
15:32 < wrtp> they compare true if the dynamic types are the same and equal
15:32 < Ginto8> but interface{}(y) == interface{}(y) would be invalid?
15:32 < wrtp> it's a useful property
15:32 < Ginto8> or did you mean interface{}(x) == interface{}(y)
15:32 < wrtp> Ginto8: no, i meant the former
15:32 < Ginto8> hm
15:32 < Ginto8> I don't get it =/
15:32 < skelterjohn> i'm not sure, but i think that interface comparisons
compare the pointer value?
15:32 < wrtp> it would be invalid because (y == y) is invalid
15:33 < wrtp> because you can't compare structs by value
15:33 < Ginto8> oh yeah
15:33 < Ginto8> struct comparisons
15:33 < Ginto8> duh
15:33 < Ginto8> sorry
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17:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d8ZSW by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- gob:
a couple of tiny simplifications using Kind()
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19:05 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d95Bp by [Vinu Rajashekhar] in go/src/pkg/net/
-- Move the function Run() back into fd.go.
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19:54 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d983v by [Ken Thompson] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- code gen bug in len(nil) and cap(nil)
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20:55 < nsf> yay, I've finished new tiling render in gomandel..  now I need
to wait for a bug fix and then it's done
21:01 < nsf> "throw: mark - world not stopped"
21:01 * nsf is tired seeing that
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21:17 < skelterjohn> i give the first lecture for a 2nd year discrete math
course tonight.  3 hours.  think i can slip some go in there?
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23:41 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d9jKT by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/strconv/ --
strconv: fix %.2g, 40
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23:52 < travisbrady> Does go provide map type in its distribution?
Something like std::map in C++ or TreeMap in Java?
23:56 < KirkMcDonald> travisbrady: maps are a built-in type.
23:56 < KirkMcDonald> travisbrady: Mind, they are hash tables, and not trees
like the examples you gave.
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23:56 < travisbrady> KirkMcDonald: but aren't they built atop hash tables
and therefore not ordered?
23:56 < KirkMcDonald> Correct.
23:56 < travisbrady> Right, I'm looking for an ordered map
23:56 < KirkMcDonald> Sorted, do you mean?
23:57 < KirkMcDonald> But, no, Go doesn't have any red-black trees or the
like.
23:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/d9kty by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/strconv/ --
strconv: fix %.1f, 0.09
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23:58 < KirkMcDonald> Not in the standard library, at least.
23:58 < KirkMcDonald> It's possible someone has written one, I suppose.
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 30 00:00:12 2010