--- Log opened Tue Jul 06 00:00:12 2010
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00:33 < Eko> nf: I probably missed submitting that one.  I'll get it
submitted at some point.  Thanks for the warning.
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01:21 < nf> np
01:21 < nf> Eko: btw, i took my own crack at doing a Go Sudoku solver last
night :)
01:21 < nf> Eko: interesting problem - Go seems well-suited to the task
01:22 < nsf> hey guys, does anyone know what abbrev DRO stands for?
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01:22 < nf> nsf: i was wondering that myself
01:22 < nsf> :)
01:23 < nsf> I think it's just typo
01:24 < nsf> because there is no such abbrev in the whole internet (well, in
that context, as a verb)
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01:26 < nf> i'm kinda confounded as to how to respond to this guy
01:27 < nf> i asked for a concrete example, and he's given an abstract
example that seems right out of Design Patterns or something
01:27 < nsf> yeah, like he's dropping a quotes from his favourite OO book
(it looks like that to me)
01:27 < nsf> :D
01:28 < nf> still, you should be less inflammatory
01:28 < nf> i share your sentiment mostly, but that really only put him on
the defensive
01:28 < nsf> I just hate OOP zealots :) and therefore I'm trying to keep
myself from posting more than one response in that kind of topics :D
01:28 < nf> haha
01:29 < nf> yeah, IKWYM.  it's just it's easy to say how you feel about it,
less simple to convince someone to see things the way you do
01:29 < nsf> nearly impossible I'd say with that type of people
01:29 < nf> i don't know about this guy
01:30 < nf> but you also have to consider other people reading the thread
who are less extreme, but still see things more or less the way he does
01:30 < nsf> I think I know enough, but of course I might be wrong
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01:30 < nf> they may be swayed by a rational discussion, even if the
original poster isn't
01:31 < nsf> ok ok, my post was more of a like: there is a very alternative
opinion, please do know about it :D
01:31 < nf> :)
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02:53 < jer> you think talking to OOP types is hard, try talking to FP types
02:54 < jer> there's a group you just want to wrangle each and every one
of's neck, while one will pipe up and say "you know, we're a collection of people,
why not just pass us to a map function along with your wring_neck function?  save
some time, you know"
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04:37 < Eko> nf: I keep wanting to respond to him but getting distracted.
04:39 < Eko> nf: my response would be something along the lines of: When you
are designing objects in a standard OO language, your objects contain all of the
functionality that your "model" supports.  In Go, you define interfaces for
various subsets of functionality that a particular task requires, and then define
methods on structures for which some combination of interfaces apply.  Thus,
trying to convert from one paradigm to the other is doomed to failure and h
04:39 < Eko> eadache.
04:40 < Eko> with some suitable examples and slightly less rhetoric, of
course.
04:40 < nf> yeah.  it's a lot of effort and you have the potential of just
getting a slap in the face in return
04:41 < KirkMcDonald> I give better than even odds that he's not going to
listen no matter what people say.
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04:44 < nsf> as I've said, it's impossible to explain something to this guy
:)
04:44 < KirkMcDonald> I wonder if this is a coincidence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hawthorne
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04:49 < Eko> rofl, KirkMcDonald.
04:49 < Eko> nf: yeah, that's probably what lets me get distracted.
04:49 < Eko> somehow, making gofr more useful to more people seems to be the
better use of my time ;)
04:50 < nf> :)
04:52 < Eko> I'm actually starting to quite like it.  I'm working on making
the defaults more sensible, so I don't even have to specify the output binary any
more if the main() is in the file whose name corresponds to the binary, instead of
just using main or $O.out by default.
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06:32 < Eko> nf: how does the linking of godashboard packages and projects
work?  log4go on packages doesn't link to the project
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06:37 < nf> i need to write a little thing that infers the repo path from
the url
06:37 < nf> at present i need to manually specify the repo path
06:37 < nf> it's just been an effort thing thus far
06:38 < Eko> ah.  I thought maybe it compared the URL to the repo url
06:38 < Eko> nf: do you think additions to the flags package to make it
slightly more getopt-like would be welcomed?
06:39 < Eko> I'm starting to feel mildly crippled by the inability to have
both -i and --install
06:39 < Eko> I can always make a simple gogetopt library if not.
06:40 < Eko> oh hmm, there's already a goopt.
06:40 < nf> Eko: I'd say it's unlikely.  Part of Go's philosophy is keeping
things simple.  It would be nice to have a separate library with feature parity to
getopt
06:43 < Eko> goopt looks similar, but I'm not entirely sure I like the way
it does it.
06:44 < Eko> for instance, it doesn't appear to have the
no_arg/optional_arg/required_arg distinction.
06:46 < nsf> Eko: I'd like to see built-in '-h' command in flag
06:46 < nsf> it's annoying that it doesn't have it
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06:50 < Eko> nsf: yeah, I'm with you there.
06:50 < Eko> though I somehow got accustomed to -?  slightly more than -h,
and no way to explain how.
06:51 < Eko> goopt actually looks pretty good, it is just in SERIOUS need of
some documentation.
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06:55 < nsf> I like the way flags are made in python
http://docs.python.org/library/optparse.html
06:56 < KirkMcDonald> I wrote a command-line option parser for Go.
06:56 < KirkMcDonald> Based on Python's optparse.
06:56 < KirkMcDonald> http://code.google.com/p/optparse-go/
06:56 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: nice, I've seen it somewhere, but haven't tried
yet
06:56 < ampleyfly> where is this oop discussion you mentioned taking place?
06:57 < KirkMcDonald> So far as I know, it is the first third-party library
which was ever released for Go. :-)
06:59 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: is it installable using goinstall?
06:59 < KirkMcDonald> I don't even know what that is.  :-)
07:00 < KirkMcDonald> Maybe I should get up to speed on whatever the new
build tools are...
07:00 < nsf> ok, then I will make a checkout
07:00 < nsf> it's a tool that supposed to install go packages for you
07:00 < nsf> but it's very stupid (in terms of logic)
07:00 < KirkMcDonald> Stupid is frequently good when it comes to build
tools.
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07:01 < nsf> I disagree :)
07:01 < KirkMcDonald> There's stupid (which is both easy and good), and
there's clever and broken (which is easy and bad), and there's clever and
functional (which is hard and can be good).
07:01 < KirkMcDonald> And I've used way too many tools which try to be
clever and fail.
07:02 < nsf> well, that's the problem, there are too many stupid tools out
there
07:02 < nsf> because it's easy to make another aone
07:02 < nsf> one*
07:02 < nsf> but you're totally right too
07:02 < nsf> :)
07:02 < KirkMcDonald> By that same logic, new tools are bad.  :-)
07:04 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: optparse-go uses old stlye variadic argument
functions, doesn't compile
07:04 < KirkMcDonald> Bah, that doesn't surprise me.
07:05 < KirkMcDonald> I'll take a crack at it tomorrow, then.
07:05 < KirkMcDonald> That's right, I do some awful things to emulate
keyword arguments.
07:06 < KirkMcDonald> Maybe I'll try to device a more, uh...  sane API while
I am at it.
07:06 < KirkMcDonald> devise*
07:06 < nsf> that would be nice
07:06 < nsf> I'm working now on autocompletion system for Go :)
07:07 < KirkMcDonald> The variadic madness that optparse-go does would
probably foil most of that.
07:07 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: maybe, too pythonish :)
07:08 < KirkMcDonald> The other way I thought of doing it was via struct
literals.
07:08 < nsf> overall optparse-go looks to me like a lot of code
07:08 < nsf> is it really necessary?
07:08 < KirkMcDonald> Perhaps.
07:08 < KirkMcDonald> The automatic --help generation is a decent amount of
code on its own.
07:08 < KirkMcDonald> Formatting the text, etc.
07:09 < KirkMcDonald> (It also detects the terminal width correctly, which I
am somewhat pleased with.)
07:09 < nsf> omg
07:09 < nsf> :)
07:09 < nsf> well it's nice of course, but too much imho
07:09 < nsf> I wouldn't do it :)
07:10 < KirkMcDonald> Search for it, every page and its mother says that you
can just do getenv("COLUMNS"), which is of course wrong.
07:10 < KirkMcDonald> Since $COLUMNS isn't actually an environment variable.
07:10 < nsf> I know, I made in past ncurses-like library :)
07:10 < KirkMcDonald> Ah, nice.
07:11 < nsf> although it was linux-only
07:11 < KirkMcDonald> Are you familiar with Urwid?
07:11 < nsf> so, I'm not really aware of a portable way to detect width
07:11 < nsf> I've heard about it
07:11 < KirkMcDonald> Given that Go only worked on Unix-like systems at the
time I wrote this library, I did not worry about portability.
07:11 < nsf> mine is dead simple
07:12 < nsf> http://code.google.com/p/termbox/
07:12 < nsf> actually has Go bindings
07:12 < KirkMcDonald> I figure, along with portability will come some manner
of compile-time conditionals.
07:12 < KirkMcDonald> So I can worry about it then.
07:12 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: I don't think so
07:13 < KirkMcDonald> Well, the other option is conditionally including one
source file or another into the package at build time.
07:13 < KirkMcDonald> Which works, too.
07:14 < KirkMcDonald> As long as I could (say) have one chunk of code
defining a function on Unix-like systems, and another defining that same function,
differently, on Windows.
07:15 < KirkMcDonald> There's gotta be some Windows API call or other for
getting the width of the command prompt.  Alternatively, I would not feel bad at
all about hardcoding it to 80 on Windows.
07:15 < KirkMcDonald> Since that's the default and basically no one changes
it.
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07:37 < Eko> I'm adding lots of documentation to the goopt library.
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07:42 < Eko> pull request sent to the author.  =D.
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07:58 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: sorry, my PC just died, I had to unbox it and
revive the motherboard
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> hah
07:58 < nsf> have I missed something?  :)
07:58 < KirkMcDonald> Nope.
07:58 < nsf> :D
07:59 < KirkMcDonald> I wanted a bit about console widths in Windows, but
that was about 40 minutes ago.
07:59 < KirkMcDonald> s/wanted/ranted/
07:59 < nsf> I really like windows' console API
07:59 < nsf> it's simple
07:59 < nsf> and that how I was tried to make termbox
07:59 < nsf> as simple as possible (closer to windows like console)
08:00 < nsf> uh..  I have the weirdest motherboard ever
08:02 < adu> why?
08:02 < adu> posix is where it's at
08:02 * adu prefers 'ls' over 'dir'
08:03 < KirkMcDonald> adu: We're talking about APIs for e.g.  finding the
width of the terminal.
08:03 < nsf> adu: yes, I'm talking about a console as a window :)
08:03 < nsf> not as a command line interface
08:03 < KirkMcDonald> Or duplicating ncurses.
08:04 < nsf> in windows console is vt100 compatible, but it's also exposed
in an API as a WxH array of symbols
08:04 < nsf> and I really like that
08:04 < nsf> in linux you have to deal with vt100 like features :(
08:05 < nsf> and it is so 80s
08:08 < jessta> well, it's a terminal emulator.  The fact that people still
use it is kind of weird
08:08 < jessta> like people who are running their whole business on dos apps
08:08 < nsf> I use it because it's a nice tool :)
08:09 < nsf> and there are a lot of crappy GUI file managers for example
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08:09 < jessta> I use a terminal because it's the only way to get a shell
08:09 < nsf> :D
08:10 < nsf> that's an interesting observation
08:10 < nsf> can we get a shell without a terminal
08:10 < nsf> probably not
08:10 < jessta> it could be greatly simplified if a shell was all you wanted
08:10 < bartbes> I guess you can get one, but you simply can't control it
08:11 < bartbes> a shell script spawns a shell, even when it is not attached
to a terminal
08:11 < bartbes> (directly, I have no idea what stuff the guis do)
08:11 < nsf> the good thing about a terminal that it's very abstract
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08:13 < bartbes> I'd say the best thing about a shell is easy access of
complex commands, piping, etc and the lack of a resource-draining unneccesary gui
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08:14 < nsf> I need a new motherboard :D
08:14 < bartbes> why?
08:15 < nsf> because that one is crappy
08:15 < nsf> I've just felt into a reboot
08:15 < nsf> without any reason
08:15 < nsf> :\
08:16 < nsf> I mean fallen
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08:16 < nsf> or whatever
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08:16 < KirkMcDonald> Motherboards are cheap.
08:16 < bartbes> that's just the bihourly shutdown of your old w7 beta
08:16 < bartbes> :P
08:17 < KirkMcDonald> $25 can get you a decent one.  Though a new mobo
usually also means a new CPU and sometimes RAM...
08:17 < nsf> I'm afraid that I'll have to reinstall my winxp with a new one
08:17 < nsf> and I really don't want to do that :)
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08:17 < KirkMcDonald> As long as you keep the same brand of CPU, I think,
there should not be an issue.
08:17 < KirkMcDonald> I have done this (on XP, even) a couple of times.
08:18 < KirkMcDonald> You just turn it on, and go through a long bout of
"detected new hardware" wizards.
08:18 < nsf> then I'll probably buy a new one
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08:22 < nsf> :)
08:22 < nsf> now it's not even funny
08:23 < bartbes> maybe it isn't funny for you
08:23 < nsf> :D
08:24 < nsf> ok, I'm going to bed, PC needs rest :D
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08:34 < jartur> Hi all.  Has anybody tried to write network apps with
non-blocking IO (select/poll) or AIO in Go? I've noticed that currently standard
library only supports normal tcp sockets.
08:38 < bartbes> did I try async I/O?  yes, did I fail?  yes
08:38 < bartbes> but I didn't spend too much time trying either
08:38 < jartur> bartbes: Why did you fail?
08:38 < bartbes> because I was overcomplicating stuff
08:38 < bartbes> and because I was working with stdin
08:39 < jartur> Hmm.
08:39 < bartbes> but I guess it shouldn't be too hard
08:40 < jartur> Well, for me go is hard because it's not very familiar.
08:41 < jartur> And noting absense of FFI documentation...
08:41 < bartbes> well, that was my first experience as well, but once I went
through the tuts I realized you need a different way of thinking
08:42 < jartur> yeah, i see that
08:43 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: The normal Go idiom, I do believe, would be to
spin off a goroutine for each communication channel, and forward the inputs to
channels.
08:43 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Then you might use the select statement on
these channels.
08:44 < KirkMcDonald> s/communication channel/socket/ # perhaps
08:44 < bartbes> that seems to be the go way indeed
08:44 < bartbes> I also found something else that might help
08:44 < bartbes> select
08:44 < bartbes> and then add a default case
08:44 < bartbes> it's basically like a poll
08:44 < bartbes> unless I like..  missed a func
08:45 < KirkMcDonald> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Select_statements
08:45 < KirkMcDonald> No, that's right.
08:45 < KirkMcDonald> 'default' is the difference between blocking and
non-blocking.
08:45 < bartbes> yes, I figured that out
08:45 < jartur> Wait, you mean that go has select built-in?
08:45 < jartur> Damn...
08:45 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Yep.
08:46 < bartbes> but I thought there might have been some poll function
somewhere
08:46 < jartur> I though I would have to interface with C
08:46 < bartbes> :O
08:46 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Note that Go's built-in select operates on Go
channels.
08:46 < jartur> KirkMcDonald: aha, I see that
08:46 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Hence the step of spinning off goroutines to
forward the input to channels.
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08:46 < jartur> KirkMcDonald: Yeah, this sounds sane to me =)
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08:48 < jartur> Though i have no idea how to do it yet =)
08:49 < KirkMcDonald> It is very nearly as many statements as I've used
sentences.  :-)
08:49 < bartbes> where I failed was mostly when trying to add a quit channel
08:50 < KirkMcDonald> close() and closed() are useful.
08:50 < bartbes> but that might have been because I was using stdin, which
is tricky at best
08:50 < KirkMcDonald> Just close the channel, and have your outer loop be
e.g.  for !closed(channel) {
08:50 < KirkMcDonald> Or what-have-you.
08:50 < jartur> Hmm, goroutines spawn threads?
08:50 < bartbes> no
08:50 < bartbes> but they might
08:50 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: They are "green" threads, more or less.
08:51 < bartbes> it's..  a grey area
08:51 < bartbes> the specs say it can run everywhere
08:51 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: They are multiple threads of control, but this
does not imply that they are literally native threads.
08:51 < bartbes> and they don't guarantee it
08:51 < jartur> Ah. I'm just afraid of many threads in my app.  I have like
thousand simultaneous connections.
08:51 < jartur> thousandS
08:51 < jartur> And they are long-living
08:52 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: There are examples which spin of literally
hundreds of thousands of goroutines.
08:52 < bartbes> well, go does some scheduling itself
08:52 < jartur> Okay
08:52 < KirkMcDonald> Spinning off many, many goroutines is part of the
design.
08:52 < bartbes> so if they sleep a lot there's a good chance quite a few
get merged into one thread
08:52 < jartur> It's like "don't worry about it, just use it"
08:52 < bartbes> actually, the docs mention that goroutines are moved if
necessary
08:52 < KirkMcDonald> Yep.
08:52 < bartbes> fire and forget
08:53 < bartbes> (I know that's not really applicable, but I like saying it)
08:53 < Namegduf> A number of CPU threads equal to GOMAXPROCS is spawned.
08:53 < Namegduf> Goroutines are multiplexed across these.
08:53 < KirkMcDonald> Yeah, that.
08:53 < bartbes> which is not part of the language, but merely an
implementation detail
08:53 < Namegduf> They do not individually spawn additional threads, and are
cheap.
08:54 < Namegduf> Their primary cost is in memory for the initial stack,
which is 4KB
08:54 < jartur> I see.  Interesting.
08:54 < Namegduf> And yes, it's implementation detail, but performance is an
implementation matter.
08:54 < Namegduf> And thus requires it.
08:55 < jartur> All systems programming requires going into implemetation
details from time to time
08:55 < Namegduf> Gccgo uses a thread per goroutine, but it is not intended
to stay that way.
08:55 < Namegduf> I would recommend against using it.
08:56 < jartur> Good
08:56 < bartbes> well, yes, I was not saying you shouldn't use it, it was
more like a disclaimer
08:58 < Namegduf> Goroutines that block on system calls DO take up an OS
thread each...
08:58 < Namegduf> But blocking on I/O does not count.
08:58 < Namegduf> Or, rather, blocking on I/O uses epoll/poll/select/kqueue
internally
08:59 < jartur> Wowsers
08:59 < Namegduf> And only has one OS thread in charge of waiting for the
I/O and unblocking goroutines as needed.
08:59 < jartur> They, like, do everything I do manually only
automatically...
08:59 < Namegduf> Yeah, it's nice.
09:04 < jartur> Thanks.
09:04 < jartur> I'll come back w/ more questions probably )
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18:09 < KirkMcDonald> Oh yeah.
18:09 < KirkMcDonald> I was going to get optparse-go compiling again.
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18:54 < KirkMcDonald> Okay.  I really like the new variadics.
18:55 < KirkMcDonald> Much better than the old ones.
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19:03 < KirkMcDonald> Man.  Why did I write optparse like this?  This is
maddening.
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19:13 < KirkMcDonald> There.  optparse-go works again.
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19:15 < skelterjohn> does optparse-go do anything interesting that the flag
package doesn't
19:15 < skelterjohn> ?
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19:15 < KirkMcDonald> I wouldn't have written it otherwise.  :-)
19:15 < KirkMcDonald> It does a few things.
19:16 < skelterjohn> that was sort of my infomercial lead-in question :)
19:16 < skelterjohn> optparse-go - sounds expensive.  I'd guess at least
$49.99.
19:16 < KirkMcDonald> "Append" actions, callbacks, putting the parser into
its own type, rather than making it global.
19:16 < KirkMcDonald> You'd be wrong!  For only three easy payments of
$14.99, it can be yours!  (Plus shipping and handling.)
19:17 < skelterjohn> is it wrapped around the flag package?
19:17 < KirkMcDonald> No.
19:17 < KirkMcDonald> Doesn't use getopt either.
19:17 < skelterjohn> how do you get access to the command line?
19:17 < KirkMcDonald> os.Argv
19:17 < skelterjohn> ah
19:18 < KirkMcDonald> Er.
19:18 < KirkMcDonald> os.Args, I mean.
19:18 < skelterjohn> hey - you should consider making your library more
compatible with goinstall
19:18 < skelterjohn> there are two things you can do which makes it work
really nicely with it
19:18 < KirkMcDonald> I only learned that goinstall existed yesterday.  :-)
19:18 < skelterjohn> in the makefile, have the target be the goinstall
version of its path
19:19 < skelterjohn> and put it in /hg/optparse instead of /hg
19:19 < skelterjohn> that way it has the same import statement, if you build
it locally or goinstall it
19:19 < skelterjohn> and when goinstalled, it's more obvious what the
package name is
19:20 < KirkMcDonald> And what is the "goinstall version of its path"?
19:20 < skelterjohn> for instance:
http://code.google.com/p/gomatrix/source/browse/matrix/Makefile
19:20 < KirkMcDonald> Ah.
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19:20 < skelterjohn> so make install puts it in the same place as goinstall
would
19:22 < KirkMcDonald> I think I want to make some adjustments to optparse-go
to make it more compatible with the flag package.
19:23 < skelterjohn> that's another issue entirely :)
19:23 < KirkMcDonald> Right now, if you define an option as "--foo", you
must specify it as "--foo".
19:23 < KirkMcDonald> But with the flag package, you define it as "foo", and
can specify it as "-foo" or "--foo".
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19:23 < skelterjohn> i never got quite caught up with the difference between
"-foo x" and "--foo=x" and "-foo=x"
19:24 < KirkMcDonald> I was emulating Python's optparse's behavior...  to
some extent.
19:24 < KirkMcDonald> But I think it would be wise to emulate the flag
package's behavior.
19:24 < KirkMcDonald> But I'll also keep the short-option behavior, since I
like it.
19:24 < KirkMcDonald> That is, '-abcd' being equivalent to '-a -b -c -d'.
19:25 < skelterjohn> that is pretty standard
19:25 < skelterjohn> but it would seem to prevent -foo
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19:25 < KirkMcDonald> Not at all.
19:25 < skelterjohn> what if you have a foo, f, and o flag
19:25 < KirkMcDonald> Only if there is a conflict.
19:26 < KirkMcDonald> If '-foo' exactly matches a long option, it uses that.
19:26 < KirkMcDonald> Otherwise it attempts to parse it as short options.
19:26 < KirkMcDonald> If you have f and o flags, the behavior depends on
whether the f flag accepts an argument.
19:27 < skelterjohn> yeah
19:27 < skelterjohn> ie, confusing :)
19:27 < KirkMcDonald> Eh.
19:27 < KirkMcDonald> I have not found it so, in practice.  :-)
19:28 < skelterjohn> but someone without a sound knowledge of how it's
supposed to work might
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19:30 < KirkMcDonald> Well, perhaps I won't worry about this now.
19:31 < skelterjohn> back to NED vs URU
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19:42 < KirkMcDonald> There.  optparse-go is now organized like goinstall
likes.
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19:51 < skelterjohn> :)
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