--- Log opened Tue Jul 06 00:00:12 2010 00:00 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 00:01 -!- aho [~nya@e180235033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION] 00:18 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-168-237-28.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:21 -!- Tiger_ [~chatzilla@118.126.12.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25 -!- geocalc [~geobsd@lns-bzn-58-82-251-232-135.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:27 -!- bl3u [~kate@24-107-152-12.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:30 -!- mxweas [~max@c-98-225-102-170.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:33 < Eko> nf: I probably missed submitting that one. I'll get it submitted at some point. Thanks for the warning. 00:36 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 00:37 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@219.137.48.72] has joined #go-nuts 00:40 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-206-33.net.novis.pt] has joined #go-nuts 00:40 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-206-33.net.novis.pt] has left #go-nuts [] 00:41 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:42 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 00:44 -!- bjarneh [~bjarneh@135.80-203-19.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45 -!- bjarneh [~bjarneh@135.80-203-19.nextgentel.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:46 -!- fenicks [~christian@log77-3-82-243-254-112.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:52 -!- scarabx [~scarabx@c-76-19-43-200.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:53 -!- sioraiocht [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has joined #go-nuts 00:56 -!- jdp [~gu@24.238.32.162.res-cmts.segr.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:57 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #go-nuts 00:59 -!- ExtraSpice [~ExtraSpic@78-62-86-161.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00 -!- str1ngs [~strings@unaffiliated/str1ngs] has joined #go-nuts 01:04 -!- gregc [~gregc@c-68-42-97-89.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:04 -!- sioraiocht [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04 -!- fenicks [~christian@log77-3-82-243-254-112.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:19 -!- qIIp [~qIIp@72-173-156-132.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:21 < nf> np 01:21 < nf> Eko: btw, i took my own crack at doing a Go Sudoku solver last night :) 01:21 < nf> Eko: interesting problem - Go seems well-suited to the task 01:22 < nsf> hey guys, does anyone know what abbrev DRO stands for? 01:22 -!- qIIp [~qIIp@72-173-156-132.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:22 < nf> nsf: i was wondering that myself 01:22 < nsf> :) 01:23 < nsf> I think it's just typo 01:24 < nsf> because there is no such abbrev in the whole internet (well, in that context, as a verb) 01:24 -!- Bombe [~droden@weltgehirnmaschine.de] has quit [Changing host] 01:24 -!- Bombe [~droden@freenet/developer/Bombe] has joined #go-nuts 01:26 < nf> i'm kinda confounded as to how to respond to this guy 01:27 < nf> i asked for a concrete example, and he's given an abstract example that seems right out of Design Patterns or something 01:27 < nsf> yeah, like he's dropping a quotes from his favourite OO book (it looks like that to me) 01:27 < nsf> :D 01:28 < nf> still, you should be less inflammatory 01:28 < nf> i share your sentiment mostly, but that really only put him on the defensive 01:28 < nsf> I just hate OOP zealots :) and therefore I'm trying to keep myself from posting more than one response in that kind of topics :D 01:28 < nf> haha 01:29 < nf> yeah, IKWYM. it's just it's easy to say how you feel about it, less simple to convince someone to see things the way you do 01:29 < nsf> nearly impossible I'd say with that type of people 01:29 < nf> i don't know about this guy 01:30 < nf> but you also have to consider other people reading the thread who are less extreme, but still see things more or less the way he does 01:30 < nsf> I think I know enough, but of course I might be wrong 01:30 -!- fenicks [~christian@log77-3-82-243-254-112.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:30 < nf> they may be swayed by a rational discussion, even if the original poster isn't 01:31 < nsf> ok ok, my post was more of a like: there is a very alternative opinion, please do know about it :D 01:31 < nf> :) 01:46 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:49 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:04 -!- bjarneh [~bjarneh@135.80-203-19.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: bjarneh] 02:09 -!- clip9 [tj@81.166.62.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23 -!- ender2070 [~ender2070@adsl-216-246-226-232.ext.distributel.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:23 -!- gnuvince_ [~vince@72.0.215.102] has joined #go-nuts 02:30 -!- LeNsTR [~lenstr@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Quit: LeNsTR] 02:35 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@201-11-242-47.pltce701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:36 -!- scarabx [~scarabx@c-76-19-43-200.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:36 -!- trustin [~trustin@redhat/jboss/trustin] has joined #go-nuts 02:36 -!- LeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has joined #go-nuts 02:40 -!- mxweas [~max@c-98-225-102-170.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Mac has gone to sleep] 02:44 -!- rhelmer [~rhelmer@173-164-130-65-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:48 -!- gregc [~gregc@c-68-42-97-89.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:51 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 02:53 < jer> you think talking to OOP types is hard, try talking to FP types 02:54 < jer> there's a group you just want to wrangle each and every one of's neck, while one will pipe up and say "you know, we're a collection of people, why not just pass us to a map function along with your wring_neck function? save some time, you know" 02:58 -!- pl31 [~noam@77.126.172.17] has joined #go-nuts 02:59 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:01 -!- pl3 [~noam@77.126.172.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:06 -!- clip9 [tj@12.81-166-62.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:21 -!- vomjom [~vomjom@99-162-150-88.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:27 -!- mxweas [~max@c-98-225-102-170.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:34 -!- noam__ [~noam@77.126.172.17] has joined #go-nuts 03:37 -!- pl31 [~noam@77.126.172.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:42 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-76-116-181-134.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 03:43 -!- rhelmer [~rhelmer@173-164-130-65-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: rhelmer] 03:48 -!- jA_cOp [~yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 03:58 -!- exch [~exch@h144170.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:00 -!- yashi [~yashi@dns1.atmark-techno.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:04 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 04:05 -!- exch [~exch@h144170.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 04:05 -!- mxweas [~max@c-98-225-102-170.hsd1.az.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Mac has gone to sleep] 04:13 -!- exch [~exch@h144170.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:14 -!- itrekkie [~itrekkie@ip70-190-110-124.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: itrekkie] 04:14 -!- exch [~exch@h144170.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 04:16 -!- yashi [~yashi@dns1.atmark-techno.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17 -!- yashi [~yashi@dns1.atmark-techno.com] has joined #go-nuts 04:35 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 04:37 < Eko> nf: I keep wanting to respond to him but getting distracted. 04:39 < Eko> nf: my response would be something along the lines of: When you are designing objects in a standard OO language, your objects contain all of the functionality that your "model" supports. In Go, you define interfaces for various subsets of functionality that a particular task requires, and then define methods on structures for which some combination of interfaces apply. Thus, trying to convert from one paradigm to the other is doomed to failure and h 04:39 < Eko> eadache. 04:40 < Eko> with some suitable examples and slightly less rhetoric, of course. 04:40 < nf> yeah. it's a lot of effort and you have the potential of just getting a slap in the face in return 04:41 < KirkMcDonald> I give better than even odds that he's not going to listen no matter what people say. 04:42 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:42 -!- exch [~exch@h144170.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:43 -!- exch [~exch@h144170.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 04:44 < nsf> as I've said, it's impossible to explain something to this guy :) 04:44 < KirkMcDonald> I wonder if this is a coincidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hawthorne 04:48 -!- monokrome [~monokrome@monokro.me] has left #go-nuts [] 04:49 < Eko> rofl, KirkMcDonald. 04:49 < Eko> nf: yeah, that's probably what lets me get distracted. 04:49 < Eko> somehow, making gofr more useful to more people seems to be the better use of my time ;) 04:50 < nf> :) 04:52 < Eko> I'm actually starting to quite like it. I'm working on making the defaults more sensible, so I don't even have to specify the output binary any more if the main() is in the file whose name corresponds to the binary, instead of just using main or $O.out by default. 05:00 -!- scm [justme@c136119.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:01 -!- scm [justme@d071128.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 05:03 -!- LeNsTR [~quassel@unaffiliated/lenstr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14 -!- vomjom [~vomjom@99-162-150-88.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:21 -!- rhelmer [~rhelmer@173-164-130-65-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:22 -!- Kashia [~Kashia@port-92-200-92-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:42 -!- UsefulCritter [~jwm@c-76-103-53-136.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:52 -!- belkiss [~belkiss@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:53 -!- UsefulCritter [~jwm@c-76-103-53-136.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 05:56 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #go-nuts 06:01 -!- awidegreen [~quassel@62.176.237.78] has joined #go-nuts 06:02 -!- chressie [~chressie@dreggn.in-ulm.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:05 -!- chressie [~chressie@dreggn.in-ulm.de] has joined #go-nuts 06:06 -!- viirya [~viirya@cml506-25.csie.ntu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:10 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:d59f:7fc8:6af8:1bf4] has joined #go-nuts 06:14 -!- viirya [~viirya@cml506-25.csie.ntu.edu.tw] has joined #go-nuts 06:26 -!- General13372 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 06:29 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:29 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:32 < Eko> nf: how does the linking of godashboard packages and projects work? log4go on packages doesn't link to the project 06:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:34 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 06:37 < nf> i need to write a little thing that infers the repo path from the url 06:37 < nf> at present i need to manually specify the repo path 06:37 < nf> it's just been an effort thing thus far 06:38 < Eko> ah. I thought maybe it compared the URL to the repo url 06:38 < Eko> nf: do you think additions to the flags package to make it slightly more getopt-like would be welcomed? 06:39 < Eko> I'm starting to feel mildly crippled by the inability to have both -i and --install 06:39 < Eko> I can always make a simple gogetopt library if not. 06:40 < Eko> oh hmm, there's already a goopt. 06:40 < nf> Eko: I'd say it's unlikely. Part of Go's philosophy is keeping things simple. It would be nice to have a separate library with feature parity to getopt 06:43 < Eko> goopt looks similar, but I'm not entirely sure I like the way it does it. 06:44 < Eko> for instance, it doesn't appear to have the no_arg/optional_arg/required_arg distinction. 06:46 < nsf> Eko: I'd like to see built-in '-h' command in flag 06:46 < nsf> it's annoying that it doesn't have it 06:46 -!- ExtraSpice [~ExtraSpic@78-62-86-161.static.zebra.lt] has joined #go-nuts 06:50 < Eko> nsf: yeah, I'm with you there. 06:50 < Eko> though I somehow got accustomed to -? slightly more than -h, and no way to explain how. 06:51 < Eko> goopt actually looks pretty good, it is just in SERIOUS need of some documentation. 06:52 -!- Kashia [~Kashia@port-92-200-73-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 06:54 -!- Kylarr [~Kyle@122-148-63-115.static.dsl.dodo.com.au] has quit [] 06:55 < nsf> I like the way flags are made in python http://docs.python.org/library/optparse.html 06:56 < KirkMcDonald> I wrote a command-line option parser for Go. 06:56 < KirkMcDonald> Based on Python's optparse. 06:56 < KirkMcDonald> http://code.google.com/p/optparse-go/ 06:56 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: nice, I've seen it somewhere, but haven't tried yet 06:56 < ampleyfly> where is this oop discussion you mentioned taking place? 06:57 < KirkMcDonald> So far as I know, it is the first third-party library which was ever released for Go. :-) 06:59 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: is it installable using goinstall? 06:59 < KirkMcDonald> I don't even know what that is. :-) 07:00 < KirkMcDonald> Maybe I should get up to speed on whatever the new build tools are... 07:00 < nsf> ok, then I will make a checkout 07:00 < nsf> it's a tool that supposed to install go packages for you 07:00 < nsf> but it's very stupid (in terms of logic) 07:00 < KirkMcDonald> Stupid is frequently good when it comes to build tools. 07:00 -!- belkiss [~belkiss@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 4519, sources date: 20100519, built on: 2010-06-24 07:22:03 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 07:01 < nsf> I disagree :) 07:01 < KirkMcDonald> There's stupid (which is both easy and good), and there's clever and broken (which is easy and bad), and there's clever and functional (which is hard and can be good). 07:01 < KirkMcDonald> And I've used way too many tools which try to be clever and fail. 07:02 < nsf> well, that's the problem, there are too many stupid tools out there 07:02 < nsf> because it's easy to make another aone 07:02 < nsf> one* 07:02 < nsf> but you're totally right too 07:02 < nsf> :) 07:02 < KirkMcDonald> By that same logic, new tools are bad. :-) 07:04 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: optparse-go uses old stlye variadic argument functions, doesn't compile 07:04 < KirkMcDonald> Bah, that doesn't surprise me. 07:05 < KirkMcDonald> I'll take a crack at it tomorrow, then. 07:05 < KirkMcDonald> That's right, I do some awful things to emulate keyword arguments. 07:06 < KirkMcDonald> Maybe I'll try to device a more, uh... sane API while I am at it. 07:06 < KirkMcDonald> devise* 07:06 < nsf> that would be nice 07:06 < nsf> I'm working now on autocompletion system for Go :) 07:07 < KirkMcDonald> The variadic madness that optparse-go does would probably foil most of that. 07:07 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: maybe, too pythonish :) 07:08 < KirkMcDonald> The other way I thought of doing it was via struct literals. 07:08 < nsf> overall optparse-go looks to me like a lot of code 07:08 < nsf> is it really necessary? 07:08 < KirkMcDonald> Perhaps. 07:08 < KirkMcDonald> The automatic --help generation is a decent amount of code on its own. 07:08 < KirkMcDonald> Formatting the text, etc. 07:09 < KirkMcDonald> (It also detects the terminal width correctly, which I am somewhat pleased with.) 07:09 < nsf> omg 07:09 < nsf> :) 07:09 < nsf> well it's nice of course, but too much imho 07:09 < nsf> I wouldn't do it :) 07:10 < KirkMcDonald> Search for it, every page and its mother says that you can just do getenv("COLUMNS"), which is of course wrong. 07:10 < KirkMcDonald> Since $COLUMNS isn't actually an environment variable. 07:10 < nsf> I know, I made in past ncurses-like library :) 07:10 < KirkMcDonald> Ah, nice. 07:11 < nsf> although it was linux-only 07:11 < KirkMcDonald> Are you familiar with Urwid? 07:11 < nsf> so, I'm not really aware of a portable way to detect width 07:11 < nsf> I've heard about it 07:11 < KirkMcDonald> Given that Go only worked on Unix-like systems at the time I wrote this library, I did not worry about portability. 07:11 < nsf> mine is dead simple 07:12 < nsf> http://code.google.com/p/termbox/ 07:12 < nsf> actually has Go bindings 07:12 < KirkMcDonald> I figure, along with portability will come some manner of compile-time conditionals. 07:12 < KirkMcDonald> So I can worry about it then. 07:12 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: I don't think so 07:13 < KirkMcDonald> Well, the other option is conditionally including one source file or another into the package at build time. 07:13 < KirkMcDonald> Which works, too. 07:14 < KirkMcDonald> As long as I could (say) have one chunk of code defining a function on Unix-like systems, and another defining that same function, differently, on Windows. 07:15 < KirkMcDonald> There's gotta be some Windows API call or other for getting the width of the command prompt. Alternatively, I would not feel bad at all about hardcoding it to 80 on Windows. 07:15 < KirkMcDonald> Since that's the default and basically no one changes it. 07:16 -!- sioraiocht [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has joined #go-nuts 07:17 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@drms-4d0149fb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:37 < Eko> I'm adding lots of documentation to the goopt library. 07:37 -!- napsy [~napsy@193.2.66.101] has joined #go-nuts 07:42 < Eko> pull request sent to the author. =D. 07:48 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-96-255-9-193.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:57 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 07:58 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: sorry, my PC just died, I had to unbox it and revive the motherboard 07:58 < KirkMcDonald> hah 07:58 < nsf> have I missed something? :) 07:58 < KirkMcDonald> Nope. 07:58 < nsf> :D 07:59 < KirkMcDonald> I wanted a bit about console widths in Windows, but that was about 40 minutes ago. 07:59 < KirkMcDonald> s/wanted/ranted/ 07:59 < nsf> I really like windows' console API 07:59 < nsf> it's simple 07:59 < nsf> and that how I was tried to make termbox 07:59 < nsf> as simple as possible (closer to windows like console) 08:00 < nsf> uh.. I have the weirdest motherboard ever 08:02 < adu> why? 08:02 < adu> posix is where it's at 08:02 * adu prefers 'ls' over 'dir' 08:03 < KirkMcDonald> adu: We're talking about APIs for e.g. finding the width of the terminal. 08:03 < nsf> adu: yes, I'm talking about a console as a window :) 08:03 < nsf> not as a command line interface 08:03 < KirkMcDonald> Or duplicating ncurses. 08:04 < nsf> in windows console is vt100 compatible, but it's also exposed in an API as a WxH array of symbols 08:04 < nsf> and I really like that 08:04 < nsf> in linux you have to deal with vt100 like features :( 08:05 < nsf> and it is so 80s 08:08 < jessta> well, it's a terminal emulator. The fact that people still use it is kind of weird 08:08 < jessta> like people who are running their whole business on dos apps 08:08 < nsf> I use it because it's a nice tool :) 08:09 < nsf> and there are a lot of crappy GUI file managers for example 08:09 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 08:09 < jessta> I use a terminal because it's the only way to get a shell 08:09 < nsf> :D 08:10 < nsf> that's an interesting observation 08:10 < nsf> can we get a shell without a terminal 08:10 < nsf> probably not 08:10 < jessta> it could be greatly simplified if a shell was all you wanted 08:10 < bartbes> I guess you can get one, but you simply can't control it 08:11 < bartbes> a shell script spawns a shell, even when it is not attached to a terminal 08:11 < bartbes> (directly, I have no idea what stuff the guis do) 08:11 < nsf> the good thing about a terminal that it's very abstract 08:12 -!- Bombe [~droden@freenet/developer/Bombe] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:12 -!- Bombe [~droden@freenet/developer/Bombe] has joined #go-nuts 08:13 < bartbes> I'd say the best thing about a shell is easy access of complex commands, piping, etc and the lack of a resource-draining unneccesary gui 08:13 -!- Fish-Work [~Fish@86.65.182.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14 -!- Fish-Work [~Fish@86.65.182.207] has joined #go-nuts 08:14 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 08:14 < nsf> I need a new motherboard :D 08:14 < bartbes> why? 08:15 < nsf> because that one is crappy 08:15 < nsf> I've just felt into a reboot 08:15 < nsf> without any reason 08:15 < nsf> :\ 08:16 < nsf> I mean fallen 08:16 -!- Fish-Work [~Fish@86.65.182.207] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16 < nsf> or whatever 08:16 -!- Fish-Work [~Fish@86.65.182.207] has joined #go-nuts 08:16 < KirkMcDonald> Motherboards are cheap. 08:16 < bartbes> that's just the bihourly shutdown of your old w7 beta 08:16 < bartbes> :P 08:17 < KirkMcDonald> $25 can get you a decent one. Though a new mobo usually also means a new CPU and sometimes RAM... 08:17 < nsf> I'm afraid that I'll have to reinstall my winxp with a new one 08:17 < nsf> and I really don't want to do that :) 08:17 -!- Gracenotes [~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:17 < KirkMcDonald> As long as you keep the same brand of CPU, I think, there should not be an issue. 08:17 < KirkMcDonald> I have done this (on XP, even) a couple of times. 08:18 < KirkMcDonald> You just turn it on, and go through a long bout of "detected new hardware" wizards. 08:18 < nsf> then I'll probably buy a new one 08:18 -!- halfie_ [~lulu@v-115-10.vpn.dhcp.ubc.ca] has joined #go-nuts 08:22 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:22 -!- sioraiocht [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22 -!- lulu [~lulu@lo1-156.srmd01.resnet.ubc.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:22 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 08:22 < nsf> :) 08:22 < nsf> now it's not even funny 08:23 < bartbes> maybe it isn't funny for you 08:23 < nsf> :D 08:24 < nsf> ok, I'm going to bed, PC needs rest :D 08:24 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has left #go-nuts [] 08:32 -!- crashR [~crasher@codextreme.pck.nerim.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:33 -!- jartur [~pavlenkov@95.129.78.102] has joined #go-nuts 08:34 < jartur> Hi all. Has anybody tried to write network apps with non-blocking IO (select/poll) or AIO in Go? I've noticed that currently standard library only supports normal tcp sockets. 08:38 < bartbes> did I try async I/O? yes, did I fail? yes 08:38 < bartbes> but I didn't spend too much time trying either 08:38 < jartur> bartbes: Why did you fail? 08:38 < bartbes> because I was overcomplicating stuff 08:38 < bartbes> and because I was working with stdin 08:39 < jartur> Hmm. 08:39 < bartbes> but I guess it shouldn't be too hard 08:40 < jartur> Well, for me go is hard because it's not very familiar. 08:41 < jartur> And noting absense of FFI documentation... 08:41 < bartbes> well, that was my first experience as well, but once I went through the tuts I realized you need a different way of thinking 08:42 < jartur> yeah, i see that 08:43 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: The normal Go idiom, I do believe, would be to spin off a goroutine for each communication channel, and forward the inputs to channels. 08:43 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Then you might use the select statement on these channels. 08:44 < KirkMcDonald> s/communication channel/socket/ # perhaps 08:44 < bartbes> that seems to be the go way indeed 08:44 < bartbes> I also found something else that might help 08:44 < bartbes> select 08:44 < bartbes> and then add a default case 08:44 < bartbes> it's basically like a poll 08:44 < bartbes> unless I like.. missed a func 08:45 < KirkMcDonald> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Select_statements 08:45 < KirkMcDonald> No, that's right. 08:45 < KirkMcDonald> 'default' is the difference between blocking and non-blocking. 08:45 < bartbes> yes, I figured that out 08:45 < jartur> Wait, you mean that go has select built-in? 08:45 < jartur> Damn... 08:45 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Yep. 08:46 < bartbes> but I thought there might have been some poll function somewhere 08:46 < jartur> I though I would have to interface with C 08:46 < bartbes> :O 08:46 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Note that Go's built-in select operates on Go channels. 08:46 < jartur> KirkMcDonald: aha, I see that 08:46 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: Hence the step of spinning off goroutines to forward the input to channels. 08:46 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-217-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 08:46 < jartur> KirkMcDonald: Yeah, this sounds sane to me =) 08:48 -!- fenicks [~christian@log77-3-82-243-254-112.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:48 < jartur> Though i have no idea how to do it yet =) 08:49 < KirkMcDonald> It is very nearly as many statements as I've used sentences. :-) 08:49 < bartbes> where I failed was mostly when trying to add a quit channel 08:50 < KirkMcDonald> close() and closed() are useful. 08:50 < bartbes> but that might have been because I was using stdin, which is tricky at best 08:50 < KirkMcDonald> Just close the channel, and have your outer loop be e.g. for !closed(channel) { 08:50 < KirkMcDonald> Or what-have-you. 08:50 < jartur> Hmm, goroutines spawn threads? 08:50 < bartbes> no 08:50 < bartbes> but they might 08:50 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: They are "green" threads, more or less. 08:51 < bartbes> it's.. a grey area 08:51 < bartbes> the specs say it can run everywhere 08:51 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: They are multiple threads of control, but this does not imply that they are literally native threads. 08:51 < bartbes> and they don't guarantee it 08:51 < jartur> Ah. I'm just afraid of many threads in my app. I have like thousand simultaneous connections. 08:51 < jartur> thousandS 08:51 < jartur> And they are long-living 08:52 < KirkMcDonald> jartur: There are examples which spin of literally hundreds of thousands of goroutines. 08:52 < bartbes> well, go does some scheduling itself 08:52 < jartur> Okay 08:52 < KirkMcDonald> Spinning off many, many goroutines is part of the design. 08:52 < bartbes> so if they sleep a lot there's a good chance quite a few get merged into one thread 08:52 < jartur> It's like "don't worry about it, just use it" 08:52 < bartbes> actually, the docs mention that goroutines are moved if necessary 08:52 < KirkMcDonald> Yep. 08:52 < bartbes> fire and forget 08:53 < bartbes> (I know that's not really applicable, but I like saying it) 08:53 < Namegduf> A number of CPU threads equal to GOMAXPROCS is spawned. 08:53 < Namegduf> Goroutines are multiplexed across these. 08:53 < KirkMcDonald> Yeah, that. 08:53 < bartbes> which is not part of the language, but merely an implementation detail 08:53 < Namegduf> They do not individually spawn additional threads, and are cheap. 08:54 < Namegduf> Their primary cost is in memory for the initial stack, which is 4KB 08:54 < jartur> I see. Interesting. 08:54 < Namegduf> And yes, it's implementation detail, but performance is an implementation matter. 08:54 < Namegduf> And thus requires it. 08:55 < jartur> All systems programming requires going into implemetation details from time to time 08:55 < Namegduf> Gccgo uses a thread per goroutine, but it is not intended to stay that way. 08:55 < Namegduf> I would recommend against using it. 08:56 < jartur> Good 08:56 < bartbes> well, yes, I was not saying you shouldn't use it, it was more like a disclaimer 08:58 < Namegduf> Goroutines that block on system calls DO take up an OS thread each... 08:58 < Namegduf> But blocking on I/O does not count. 08:58 < Namegduf> Or, rather, blocking on I/O uses epoll/poll/select/kqueue internally 08:59 < jartur> Wowsers 08:59 < Namegduf> And only has one OS thread in charge of waiting for the I/O and unblocking goroutines as needed. 08:59 < jartur> They, like, do everything I do manually only automatically... 08:59 < Namegduf> Yeah, it's nice. 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KirkMcDonald> Oh yeah. 18:09 < KirkMcDonald> I was going to get optparse-go compiling again. 18:09 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.90.233] has joined #go-nuts 18:10 -!- sobornost [~game@90-231-44-208-no32.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:11 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Quit: hcatlin] 18:15 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.90.233] has quit [Quit: wrtp] 18:15 -!- ikaros_ [~ikaros@drms-4d015de5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:16 -!- deso [~deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined #go-nuts 18:20 -!- cmarcelo [~cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has joined #go-nuts 18:21 -!- sobornost [~game@90-231-44-208-no32.tbcn.telia.com] has left #go-nuts [] 18:24 -!- tvw [~tv@e176006074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:25 -!- qIIp [~qIIp@134.29.57.71] has joined #go-nuts 18:26 -!- General1337 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 18:26 -!- waterwalker [~tar@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fe75fb00-7.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29 -!- General13372 [~support@71-84-50-230.dhcp.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35 -!- belkiss [~belkiss@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:36 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.90.233] has joined #go-nuts 18:47 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.90.233] has quit [Quit: wrtp] 18:48 -!- Eridius [~kevin@unaffiliated/eridius] has joined #go-nuts 18:51 -!- geocalc [~geobsd@lns-bzn-53-82-65-21-47.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:52 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-138-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:53 -!- GeoBSD [~geobsd@lns-bzn-58-82-251-232-135.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:54 < KirkMcDonald> Okay. I really like the new variadics. 18:55 < KirkMcDonald> Much better than the old ones. 18:55 -!- cmarcelo_ [~cmarcelo@187.58.104.77] has joined #go-nuts 18:56 -!- Tiger_ [~chatzilla@118.126.12.54] has joined #go-nuts 18:57 -!- cmarcelo [~cmarcelo@enlightenment/developer/cmarcelo] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:58 -!- cmarcelo_ [~cmarcelo@187.58.104.77] has left #go-nuts [] 18:59 -!- Tiger [~chatzilla@118.126.12.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:00 -!- ender2070 [~ender2070@adsl-216-246-226-232.ext.distributel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03 < KirkMcDonald> Man. Why did I write optparse like this? This is maddening. 19:03 -!- Shyde [~shyde@HSI-KBW-078-043-070-132.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Shyde] 19:13 < KirkMcDonald> There. optparse-go works again. 19:14 -!- ikaros [~ikaros@drms-4d015de5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leave the magic to Houdini] 19:15 -!- willdye1 [~willdye@zuul.dsndata.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:15 < skelterjohn> does optparse-go do anything interesting that the flag package doesn't 19:15 < skelterjohn> ? 19:15 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15 < KirkMcDonald> I wouldn't have written it otherwise. :-) 19:15 < KirkMcDonald> It does a few things. 19:16 < skelterjohn> that was sort of my infomercial lead-in question :) 19:16 < skelterjohn> optparse-go - sounds expensive. I'd guess at least $49.99. 19:16 < KirkMcDonald> "Append" actions, callbacks, putting the parser into its own type, rather than making it global. 19:16 < KirkMcDonald> You'd be wrong! For only three easy payments of $14.99, it can be yours! (Plus shipping and handling.) 19:17 < skelterjohn> is it wrapped around the flag package? 19:17 < KirkMcDonald> No. 19:17 < KirkMcDonald> Doesn't use getopt either. 19:17 < skelterjohn> how do you get access to the command line? 19:17 < KirkMcDonald> os.Argv 19:17 < skelterjohn> ah 19:18 < KirkMcDonald> Er. 19:18 < KirkMcDonald> os.Args, I mean. 19:18 < skelterjohn> hey - you should consider making your library more compatible with goinstall 19:18 < skelterjohn> there are two things you can do which makes it work really nicely with it 19:18 < KirkMcDonald> I only learned that goinstall existed yesterday. :-) 19:18 < skelterjohn> in the makefile, have the target be the goinstall version of its path 19:19 < skelterjohn> and put it in /hg/optparse instead of /hg 19:19 < skelterjohn> that way it has the same import statement, if you build it locally or goinstall it 19:19 < skelterjohn> and when goinstalled, it's more obvious what the package name is 19:20 < KirkMcDonald> And what is the "goinstall version of its path"? 19:20 < skelterjohn> for instance: http://code.google.com/p/gomatrix/source/browse/matrix/Makefile 19:20 < KirkMcDonald> Ah. 19:20 -!- clochette [~clochette@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #go-nuts 19:20 < skelterjohn> so make install puts it in the same place as goinstall would 19:22 < KirkMcDonald> I think I want to make some adjustments to optparse-go to make it more compatible with the flag package. 19:23 < skelterjohn> that's another issue entirely :) 19:23 < KirkMcDonald> Right now, if you define an option as "--foo", you must specify it as "--foo". 19:23 < KirkMcDonald> But with the flag package, you define it as "foo", and can specify it as "-foo" or "--foo". 19:23 -!- clochette [~clochette@212-198-248-35.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 19:23 < skelterjohn> i never got quite caught up with the difference between "-foo x" and "--foo=x" and "-foo=x" 19:24 < KirkMcDonald> I was emulating Python's optparse's behavior... to some extent. 19:24 < KirkMcDonald> But I think it would be wise to emulate the flag package's behavior. 19:24 < KirkMcDonald> But I'll also keep the short-option behavior, since I like it. 19:24 < KirkMcDonald> That is, '-abcd' being equivalent to '-a -b -c -d'. 19:25 < skelterjohn> that is pretty standard 19:25 < skelterjohn> but it would seem to prevent -foo 19:25 -!- plainhao [~plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com] has quit [Quit: plainhao] 19:25 < KirkMcDonald> Not at all. 19:25 < skelterjohn> what if you have a foo, f, and o flag 19:25 < KirkMcDonald> Only if there is a conflict. 19:26 < KirkMcDonald> If '-foo' exactly matches a long option, it uses that. 19:26 < KirkMcDonald> Otherwise it attempts to parse it as short options. 19:26 < KirkMcDonald> If you have f and o flags, the behavior depends on whether the f flag accepts an argument. 19:27 < skelterjohn> yeah 19:27 < skelterjohn> ie, confusing :) 19:27 < KirkMcDonald> Eh. 19:27 < KirkMcDonald> I have not found it so, in practice. :-) 19:28 < skelterjohn> but someone without a sound knowledge of how it's supposed to work might 19:30 -!- rv2733 [~rv2733@c-98-242-168-49.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:30 < KirkMcDonald> Well, perhaps I won't worry about this now. 19:31 < skelterjohn> back to NED vs URU 19:35 -!- willdye1 [~willdye@zuul.dsndata.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36 -!- willdye [~willdye@162.40.127.30] has joined #go-nuts 19:40 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: carllerche] 19:42 < KirkMcDonald> There. optparse-go is now organized like goinstall likes. 19:42 -!- willdye [~willdye@162.40.127.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45 -!- willdye [~willdye@162.40.127.30] has joined #go-nuts 19:50 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:51 < skelterjohn> :) 19:54 -!- gr0gmint [~joebiden@87.60.23.38] has joined #go-nuts 19:59 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@enginey-9.border1.sfo002.pnap.net] has quit [Quit: carllerche] 20:01 -!- gr0gmint [~joebiden@87.60.23.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:03 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.14] has joined #go-nuts 20:03 -!- vomjom [~vomjom@99-162-150-88.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:17 -!- zozoR [~zozoR@0x5da69cf2.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1105.hsnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Morten. 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