--- Log opened Sat Jul 24 00:00:05 2010
00:02 < raylu> the tutorial says gccgo produces faster code in general
00:06 < exch> the tutorial was prolly written a while ago.  There's been a
lot of work done in the meantime
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01:19 < MaybeSo> cw: didn't a GC collector *just* get committed for gccgo
today?
01:21 < exch> argh.  dealing with c string lists in go is really starting to
piss me off
01:22 < exch> Been trying to get this to work for months.  I'm beginning to
think i'm just missing some fundamental understanding of how the data is laid out
in memory
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02:29 < akrill> ok, im probably being really dumb here, but how can i load
strings from a file into an array in go?
02:29 < akrill> without knowing the # of lines in the file?
02:34 < akrill> nevermind, i got it
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03:35 < LMMark> Hello
03:35 < bytbox> LMMark: hello
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03:55 < bytbox> yikes!  The dashboard is getting 503'd - over quota!
03:56 < exch> Someone must be goinstall'ing half the internet
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03:57 < bytbox> Aren't appspot quotas monthly?  It could need a quota
raise...
03:59 < exch> It's possible
04:00 < akrill> aappspot is a sliding window
04:01 < bytbox> akrill: how large?
04:01 < akrill> depends on the metric
04:02 < bytbox> akrill: ok
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04:43 < cw> iant / MaybeSo : yeah, there is a GC there now
04:43 < cw> and it makes quite a difference
04:43 < cw> i guess better l2/l3 cache utilization
04:44 < cw> it might be interesting to actually measure that
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07:20 < Project_2501> o.o"
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08:47 < napsy> Hello.  How could I print shell escape sequences if
fmt.Printf() gives me an "unknown escape sequence" error?
08:49 < MizardX> napsy: Valid escapes:
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Character_literals
08:51 < napsy> sure, I want to write a shell escape sequense (\e)
08:51 < napsy> sequence*
08:56 < bartbes> \e?
08:56 < napsy> it's an escape sequence bash and other shells understand
08:57 < napsy> e.g.  to color the text
08:57 < bartbes> \033
08:57 < bartbes> because \e is non-iso
08:57 < bartbes> I think..
08:57 < napsy> it works, thanks
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10:11 < ZHOU_Xiaobo> why not use optional global GC just like Objective-C?
10:13 < jessta> because it's not really something you can make optional
10:13 < jessta> in a concurrent program
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11:36 < napsy> Is there a way to get out from nested loops without using
gotos, e.g.  tagging the for?
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11:48 < vrtical> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Break_statements
<<< that?
11:48 < bartbes> gotos?
11:48 < bartbes> well, you can label
11:48 < bartbes> and then break
11:48 < bartbes> which I guess should be cleaner than goto
11:48 < bartbes> but it's not ideal
11:49 < napsy> so break supports labels?
11:49 < bartbes> yes
11:49 < napsy> how can I then label a for loop?
11:50 < bartbes> as shown in vrtical's link
11:50 < napsy> oh I see
11:50 < napsy> thanks
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13:08 < nsf> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/10/07/23/1838243/
13:08 < nsf> hehe
13:08 < nsf> Rob Pike rocks :D
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13:13 < bartbes> meh
13:13 < bartbes> I do not really agree
13:14 < bartbes> C/C++ are needed
13:14 < nsf> C is
13:14 < nsf> C++ aren't really
13:14 < bartbes> I couldn't care less if you kill java, but keep c and c++
around
13:15 < bartbes> well, c++ has good sides
13:15 < bartbes> a lot of them
13:15 < bartbes> it just..  has a lot of bad sides as well
13:15 < nsf> and I don't mean that it shouldn't exist in history, C++ tought
us a lot, but we shouldn't write programs in it
13:15 < bartbes> I disagree
13:15 < vrtical> Ah, good old slashdot.  Rob Pike complains about C++ and
Java, and the first high-rated comment goes on about how C is still important and
useful.
13:16 < bartbes> sure, c++ shouldn't be the *only* language
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13:16 < vrtical> You would think on a 'news for nerds' site people would
have some conception that C and C++ are not the same thing.
13:16 < exch> Nothing wrong with C. C++ however is a different matter :p
13:16 < bartbes> but imo c++ still fulfills the needs of a niche
13:17 < exch> It probably does.  Unfortunately ppl tend to see that niche as
covering /everything/
13:18 < bartbes> well
13:18 < bartbes> the biggest problem with switching is
13:18 < exch> The notion of 'The right tool for the right job' tends to be
lost on people who are used to c++
13:18 < bartbes> you try to find a good collection of libs
13:18 < bartbes> not me
13:18 < exch> That's probably part of the problem.  like php, the c++ stdlib
covers just about eevrything
13:19 < bartbes> ehm, not necessarily the stdlib
13:19 < exch> I'm pretty sure there's a class in there that let's you make
coffee
13:19 < bartbes> I was talking more like GUIs
13:19 < exch> if you look hard enough
13:19 < bartbes> the major libs still have their best apis in c and/or c++
13:20 < exch> That's a good thing
13:20 < bartbes> though python can manage
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13:21 < exch> In the end though, we do have choice.  So I just stay away
from what I don't like and leave that same choice to the rest of the world.
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13:26 < solsTiCe> hi.  I guess the 'release' in the hg repo always points to
the latest release ?
13:26 < solsTiCe> 'release' +tag+
13:27 < nsf> solsTiCe: yes
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14:26 < solsTiCe> doc is in /usr/share/go/doc.  that's not LFS compatible.
how can I install it in /usr/share/doc/go ? I can't find anything in the install
files or doc
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14:29 < solsTiCe> not LFS.  FSH
14:30 < solsTiCe> FHS
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14:38 < solsTiCe> oops.  that' s not the install that does that /o\
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14:42 < nsf> supporting autocompletion for multifile packages is harder than
I thought :(
14:44 < nsf> well, it's not like it is harder, it requires a lot of changes
:)
14:47 < DavidJones> autocompletion for the no-package-clause-project?
14:48 < nsf> no, for a package that spans across multiple packages
14:49 < nsf> oops
14:49 < nsf> I mean across multiple files
14:49 < nsf> first problem: I want to cache everything other than current
file, but things like methods of a type can be in separate files, etc.
14:50 < nsf> and I should change the whole searching for completion proposal
scheme for that
14:50 < nsf> which is mb ok, but then it comes type inference
14:50 < DavidJones> hmh, I see : )
14:50 * araujo wonders if exist another way, except through the google groups
page, to access the go-lang mailing list
14:51 < nsf> each file has its own namespace of modules
14:51 < nsf> for example one file has import "os"
14:51 < nsf> and other import myosname "os"
14:51 < nsf> and I should resolve myosname.Error and os.Error types
correctly
14:52 < nsf> it means I need to change the whole type inference code :)
14:52 < nsf> it's quite a lot of changes
14:52 < exch> Keeps you off the street :)
14:52 < DavidJones> yeah, I see...
14:53 < vrtical> araujo: does this help?
http://groups.google.co.uk/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en-uk&answer=46606
14:53 < vrtical> I haven't tried it, but I would expect a mailing list to
have the option to work by e-mail :-)
14:55 < nsf> also there is a thing called "import package to a current
namespace"
14:55 < nsf> which requires a bit of thinking here too
14:55 < nsf> :(
14:57 < nsf> and in depth there are things like that: let's say in file
b.go: var test = methodX()
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14:57 < DavidJones> what do you mean with "import package to a current
namespace" ?
14:57 < exch> the dot import?  it's probably best if you just ignore that :)
it's not really considered 'good practise' to use it
14:57 < nsf> and methodX is defined in a.go
14:57 < DavidJones> ahh
14:57 < nsf> and because of that
14:57 < nsf> each time a.go changes
14:57 < nsf> var in b.go may change type
14:57 < nsf> which is scary :)
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14:57 < nsf> exch: yep, the dot import
14:58 < nsf> basically all problems come from caching
14:58 < nsf> if I can just reparse everything each time
14:59 < nsf> I can treat all that as a current namespace with bits of
modifications
14:59 < nsf> I guess
14:59 < DavidJones> exch, while it is bad practice and incredibly ugly, I
have actually seen it used once - in the gocurses library.  I think I fixed it in
my local sample.go, but didn't push it.
14:59 < nsf> anyway, the point is..  It will take time :(
14:59 < DavidJones> good luck then : )
15:00 < DavidJones> btw
15:00 < DavidJones> I would just tell the cache to update whenever a file is
saved
15:00 < exch> DavidJones: I've used it to, until I started running into some
peculiar issues
15:00 < nsf> it's not the hard part
15:01 < nsf> the hard part is how should I organize all this
15:01 < nsf> as I said there are a lot of things depending on each other in
a package namespace
15:01 < vrtical> 'import .' is incredibly grim.  Is there some obscure
debugging use for it or is it just there for lazy people?
15:01 < nsf> like types of var
15:01 < exch> Write down on a piece of paper all the things you require of
it.  That usually helps me to see some useful pattern emerge
15:01 < DavidJones> vrtical, there is no obscure things in go ; D
15:01 < nsf> exch: I'm trying :)
15:02 < nsf> don't see a good solution yet
15:02 < DavidJones> build an persistent model which you update whenever a
file changes
15:03 < nsf> apparently type inference should be delayed, but it means that
each declaration should remember its origin (the file where it is located)
15:03 < DavidJones> and for every import clause, load that part of the model
15:03 < nsf> because I need to know the file namespace to infer it correctly
15:03 < bartbes> what does import . do anyway?
15:04 < nsf> import everything from the package to a current namespace
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15:04 < bartbes> and..  why?
15:04 < nsf> to a file namespace to be more specific
15:04 < nsf> save typing
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15:04 < bartbes> lazy bastards
15:04 < nsf> well, yes, it is for lazy bastards
15:04 < nsf> with no autocompletion tool
15:05 < nsf> :D
15:05 < bartbes> what is your tool for?  (I mean, what IDE)
15:05 < nsf> it is a daemon :)
15:05 < solsTiCe> I see a Makefile in the doc directory but it does build
much.  also if I run godoc -http=:6060 it complains about codewalk.html that does
not exists.  there is only a codewalk directory
15:05 < nsf> and I support a vim plugin
15:05 < nsf> it can be integrated in any editor
15:05 < bartbes> yay
15:05 < nsf> and/or ide
15:07 < nsf> oh, I guess I see a solution
15:07 < nsf> will try to implement it tomorrow :P
15:08 < nsf> http://omploader.org/vNTEyMA/emacsgocode.png
15:08 < nsf> :P
15:09 * nsf hates emacs (please don't troll about that, I'm just sayin' :D)
15:09 < bartbes> no man, vim powns!
15:09 < solsTiCe> that's nice.  there is no doc to get the doc online
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15:41 < lagagnon> Anyone know of any published Go Programming books out on
the market yet?
15:42 < bartbes> is there anything other than effective go?
15:42 < exch> No books and very little in the sense of tutorials at this
point
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15:42 < exch> The sourcecode is your friend though
15:43 < KirkMcDonald> I'm not sure Go has been public long enough for a book
to make it through the publication process.
15:43 < KirkMcDonald> Let alone be written.
15:44 < exch> Not sure it would be very useful to write one anyway..  Go
changes a lot..  By the time you finish a chapter, you can start over again
15:44 < KirkMcDonald> Yeah.
15:44 < lagagnon> just found one and one only:
http://www.amazon.ca/Go-Programming-John-P-Baugh/dp/1453636676/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279986291&sr=8-1
15:45 < exch> It would probably help to just distribute a specific release
with the book and just write the book for that particular release
15:45 < KirkMcDonald> lagagnon: Yeah, but it's self-published.
15:45 < lagagnon> but you are right, new language=many changes, I just enjoy
reading real books rather than screenfuls of info...
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15:46 < vrtical> I don't want to be negative, but it's really hard to learn
go at the moment.  The tutorials are not comprehensive, some of them are out of
date, and the package documentation has no example code.
15:46 < exch> fair enough.  You could hook up a printer and just spit the
website sout on paper ;)
15:46 < KirkMcDonald> vrtical: I learned Go by reading the spec.  And where
the package documentation fails, you can read the source.
15:47 < exch> what KirkMcDonald said goes for me to.  It was considerably
easier than I anticipated to
15:47 < lagagnon> exch: yeah, and keep installing fresh printer cartridges
;-)
15:47 < KirkMcDonald> Convert the Go docs to epub format.
15:47 < KirkMcDonald> Then read 'em on a Kindle.
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15:48 < vrtical> I'm finding it quite difficult.  Perhaps it's just me, of
course, but I do think that the documentation is going to need to be extended
massively (either from the Go authors, or with books etc) if Go is to become
really popular.
15:49 < KirkMcDonald> vrtical: Perhaps having a C background helps.
15:49 < vrtical> I do!
15:49 < KirkMcDonald> heh
15:49 < KirkMcDonald> Then what's the problem?
15:49 < exch> I pretty sure the tutorials will pick up over time
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15:49 < exch> *I'm
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15:49 < exch> It's just that the go devs are a very small team and they have
far more important things to worry about at this point
15:50 < exch> That doesnt mean the community can't jump in and start
supplying tutorials though
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15:50 < exch> Perhaps i'll give it a go sometime
15:51 < DavidJones> I don't have a C background and I found go rather easy
to learn after reading the mailing list for a couple of months
15:51 < vrtical> I am planning to start blogging about Go when I'm a little
more clued in.  I think my problem with the package documentation is the lack of
example code - a single working example seems more meaningful to me than any
amount of description.
15:52 < DavidJones> hm...  I tend to look at the source code, which helps a
lot.
15:52 < exch> vrtical: every package includes a _test.go file that usually
gives a pretty good idea of what is going on
15:54 < vrtical> good point, thanks.
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16:05 < DavidJones> If I have a C type "PANEL" and I want to port that type
to go, while also adding a field "hidden bool", how would I go about that?
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16:08 < exch> I would create an encapsulating type Panel in Go. one of i's
fields is a private pointer to the c structure and the additional fields you need
16:08 < DavidJones> I tried that
16:09 < DavidJones> but the problem is, that the C code returns a *PANEL at
some locations
16:09 < DavidJones> eg.  *PANEL panel_above( *PANEL )
16:09 < DavidJones> and I can't retrieve my *Panel from that *C.PANEL :/
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16:11 < exch> mm can you post some example code somewhere?  I'm not sure I
understand your problem
16:12 < DavidJones> sure thing, wait a sec
16:17 < DavidJones> http://pastebin.com/FX2ceDUV
16:18 < exch> k.  lemme have a peek
16:20 < exch> ah I see what you mean
16:21 < exch> Not sure there is a simple way to solve that apart from
tracking the parent/child relationships manually in your package :s
16:21 < DavidJones> :/
16:21 < exch> Hardly ideal
16:21 < DavidJones> How would I do that?
16:22 < DavidJones> If I could use structs as keys to maps, it would be
trivial
16:22 < exch> Netx to the hidden bool field, you'd have to add a pointer to
the parent Panel type as well
16:22 < exch> And add some logic to keep those updated properly
16:23 < DavidJones> but that wouldn't work
16:23 < DavidJones> since I would have to store that pointer at my wrapper
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16:24 < DavidJones> which is useless, since I can't access my wrapper
without accessing my wrapper
16:24 < exch> Another way would be to remove the hidden field from the panel
type and just define it as 'type Panel C.PANEL'.  Convert any pointer you get from
a PANEL to a uintptr..  You can use that as a map key
16:25 < exch> the map value could then simply be a struct holding as many
custom fields as you need
16:25 < DavidJones> using unsafe?
16:25 < exch> yes
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16:26 < exch> not sure of you can convert a regular pointer to a uintptr
directly.  If you can, then you don't need the unsafe package
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16:26 < exch> otherwise it'll be uintptr(unsafe.Pointer(myCPanel))
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16:28 < DavidJones> mhm, I see.
16:28 < DavidJones> I'll try that : )
16:28 < DavidJones> thanks a lot!
16:28 < exch> np.  Hope it works
16:28 < DavidJones> me too ;S
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16:30 < araujo> vrtical, I would like the mailing list to have e-mail option
too ....
16:31 < vrtical> araujo: sorry, I assumed the link I posted would subscribe
you to receive the mailing list by e-mail, does that not work?
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17:12 < araujo> []interface{} .....  that type means an array of objects
that follow the same interface??
17:12 < DavidJones> no.
17:12 < DavidJones> It's a slice (not an array) of objects that follow the
empty interface
17:13 < araujo> ooh, right slice...  ah, I see...  "empty interface"
17:13 < araujo> mmm...  so..  all the objects follow this interface?  :P
17:14 < exch> yes
17:14 < araujo> Thanks guys :)
17:14 < DavidJones> all objects follow the empty interface, so I don't get
your question
17:14 < araujo> ok, I see now
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20:23 < exch> uriel: more stuff to add to your site:
http://github.com/jteeuwen/go-pkg-libvlc Still very much WIP, but it's getting
there.
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21:31 < DavidJones> nsf how do you know which files are actually part of the
same package?  What If I have an obsolete file that is "part" of a particular
package but not actually compiled with the other files?
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21:32 < akrill> anyone interested in a synchronized version of netchan?
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21:32 < exch> Only way to consistently solve that is to maintain some form
of project management which generates the makefile itself
21:33 < exch> Just reading the makefile could work, but that's assuming the
developer actually uses one
21:33 < DavidJones> exactly my thoughts there :/
21:34 < exch> akrill: I'm sure someone will find a use for it.  I'd say just
make it if you are interested in it and put it 'out there' where people can find
it :)
21:34 < akrill> w0rd
21:34 * akrill is playing with modifying the stock netchan package to be
synchronized
21:35 < exch> I wish libVLC had better documentation :s
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22:29 < akrill> im going to go nuts, and change netchan into a bidirectional
synchronous link
22:29 < DavidJones> :D
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22:35 * akrill might also cook up a python implementation
22:35 < akrill> just for laughs
22:35 < akrill> though they wont be able to talk to each other :-/
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23:11 < DavidJones> akrill why not?
23:12 < akrill> it would be quite painful, getting python to speak gob
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23:22 < KirkMcDonald> Doesn't seem like it would be particularly more
painful than the struct module, say.
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23:24 < akrill> hmm, perhaps
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23:34 * akrill is rewriting the netchan module from scratch for the sake of
learning more about go networking
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23:45 < bartbes> http://vimeo.com/1367117
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 25 00:00:05 2010