--- Log opened Mon Jul 26 00:00:05 2010
00:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dIkfI by [Alex Brainman] in go/src/ -- fix
windows Make.cmd:
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00:29 < tensorpudding> ...the hell
00:30 < tensorpudding> is rand's random number generator seeded with the
same value every time?
00:32 < KirkMcDonald> tensorpudding: Source suggests as such.
00:32 < tensorpudding> is that normal?
00:33 < exch> the global rand instance is initialized with 1
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00:33 < exch> You can create your own instance with any seed you need
00:33 < tensorpudding> I want a seed which is different every time.
00:33 < KirkMcDonald> Or just pass something to Seed().
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00:34 < KirkMcDonald> tensorpudding: rand.Seed(time.Nanoseconds()0
00:34 < KirkMcDonald> s/0/)/
00:34 < tensorpudding> I think it's rather odd that it doesn't harvest any
entropy from /dev/random
00:35 < tensorpudding> That was my impression of what other random-number
generators did.
00:35 < KirkMcDonald> It would not be difficult to pull some bytes out of
there and use them as a seed.
00:36 < tensorpudding> But why does the default implementation of rand not
use a true random seed?
00:36 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dIojj by [Alex Brainman] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- syscall: improve windows errno handling
00:37 < exch> That's best answered by whomever wrote it
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00:42 < vrtical> classic rand is deterministic (if you give it the same seed
each time), which might be handy for debugging/testing purposes.
00:46 < vrtical> (the irony of determinism being a selling point for
randomness isn't lost on me, but you get the point)
00:48 < KirkMcDonald> It can also be useful for games.
00:48 < KirkMcDonald> The ability to save a game, and have the random number
seed continue from where it left off...
00:48 < exch> Or replaying captured demos
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02:54 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dIFYz by [Alex Brainman] in go/src/pkg/net/ --
net: fix crashing Read/Write when passed empty slice on windows
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03:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dINJb by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- A+C: Wei
Guangjing
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04:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dIUT8 by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/cmd/prof/
-- prof: fix typo in usage string
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06:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dJ1j9 by [Wei Guangjing] in
go/src/pkg/syscall/ -- syscall: add windows version of Pipe()
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07:45 < nsf> two things on a todo list!
07:45 < nsf> local packages and honest package cache
07:45 < nsf> and I'm done
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11:59 < DavidJones> I think there's a couple of really awesome discussions
going on in the ml
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12:04 < jessta> DavidJones: which ones?
12:04 < jessta> the one about turning Go in to lisp?
12:04 < DavidJones> nah
12:04 < DavidJones> not that one lol
12:05 < jessta> it's both horrifying and kind of funny
12:05 < DavidJones> for lisp, we have lisp/XL; for go, we have go :D
12:08 < DavidJones> well it's kind of interesting, but the discussion is
rather pointless
12:10 < jessta> meta-programming bothers me, the times when you need it are
rare but people abuse it because it's 'cool'
12:11 < exch> what bothers me about that whole thread is the guy's apparent
view that go is fundamentally flawed and he'll come to save us all.
12:11 < exch> It's arrogant and shortsighted
12:13 < DavidJones> jessta, meta programming is awesome, but it doesn't feel
good for go.
12:16 < DavidJones> exch, dunno.  I just think he really wants to use these
features, and he really wants to use go, but doesn't see that adding the features
will turn go into something different.
12:17 < exch> There's nothing stopping him from turning his thing into a
scripting language and embedding it in go :p Then he can have both
12:17 < exch> worked for me and my postscript fetish
12:18 < jessta> after a lovely few months writing go, I now have to find
employment.  so I
12:18 < jessta> I'm relearning php
12:19 < exch> employment is vastly overrated ;)
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12:20 < jessta> yeah, but I studied for 3 years and now the government has
stopped giving me free money
12:20 < exch> ah bummer
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12:23 < DavidJones> I was thinking of the UI conversations though
12:23 < DavidJones> as well as dynamically linking
12:25 < DavidJones> I think I'm longing for a very good IPC instead of
linking, though
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12:28 < wrtp> DavidJones: it's difficult to have very good IPC without
copying everything, unless you share memory, and if you share memory you have to
agree on what shape (i.e.  type) the contents of that memory are, which implies
some kind of linking, i think
12:29 < DavidJones> T_T
12:29 < wrtp> ?
12:29 * DavidJones cries
12:30 * wrtp doesn't think the problem is *that* hard
12:31 < DavidJones> I'm wondering, is it a good idea to have the data only
once?
12:31 < DavidJones> I think it's not actually a good idea
12:32 < DavidJones> because it might result in ugly racing conditions, and I
might not know what is modifying the data
12:33 < DavidJones> the only way to ensure something like "shared" memory
would work, is by having an intelligent database
12:34 < wrtp>
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/msg/893314cde7a76e4f
12:34 < wrtp> there's no more problem than there is now, with shared memory
between goroutines
12:34 < DavidJones> on the other hand, copying everything creates a huge
overhead
12:35 < wrtp> even using virtual memory to map pages between processes
creates a big overhead
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12:36 < DavidJones> you're right
12:41 < TheSeeker> Is it feasible to try and port a client/server written in
Java to Go? or should it just be re-written from the ground-up?
12:42 < DavidJones> usually you'd want to rewrite, because you can't really
port Java to go
12:42 < bartbes> porting usually results in bad code anyway
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12:44 < DavidJones> wrtp, that is about dynamically loading go modules
12:45 < DavidJones> but what I'm thinking of is also communicating with
Java, ruby, C, Cpp, etc processes
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12:54 < nsf> we need a Go compiler written in Go :)
12:55 < nsf> that way it will be possible to compile on the fly dynamically
loaded modules in the form of the source code
12:55 < nsf> but I guess that's a lot of work
12:57 < DavidJones> you think it would work because go compiles fast enough?
12:57 < nsf> it compiles very fast
12:57 < DavidJones> hehe I'm thinking of a C compile "on the fly"
12:58 < DavidJones> Please stand by...
12:58 < nsf> have you seen tiny c compiler?  :)
12:58 < DavidJones> not yet : )
12:58 < nsf> it actually has a library that can compile code on the fly and
execute it
12:59 < nsf> and it compiles extremely fast
12:59 < DavidJones> hmh...  I assume that it is a minimalistic compiler
similar to the go compiler.
12:59 < nsf> but in go it will be harder
12:59 < nsf> because there is a runtime
12:59 < nsf> and you need to manage integration to that runtime
12:59 < nsf> someho
12:59 < nsf> somehow*
13:00 < DavidJones> anyhow, I really don't want dynamical loading of code
right now, I want to be able to talk to other processes in other languages
13:00 < nsf> tiny c compiler, yes..  it is minimalistic
13:00 < nsf> written by one person :)
13:00 < nsf> DavidJones: protobuf?
13:01 < nsf> well, protobuf is not exactly and IPC protocol, but more like
RPC protocol
13:01 < nsf> but it will work
13:02 < nsf> s/and/an/g
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13:03 < DavidJones> currently looking at it
13:03 < jessta> DavidJones: plenty of ways to communicate to other
processes; sockets, pipes, etc.
13:05 < nsf> DavidJones: or you can try to implement gob protocol in C
13:06 < DavidJones> nsf well, I cannot
13:06 < DavidJones> ; )
13:09 < nsf> it is relatively easy task
13:09 < nsf> and boring
13:10 < DavidJones> I never learned C. I'll do that when I have the time
though.
13:14 < DavidJones> yeah, the gob protocol looks interesting.
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13:20 < DavidJones> jessta, I know, but it there is no common protocol to
talk about complex structures
13:21 < nsf> also there are slow things
13:21 < nsf> like json
13:21 < nsf> and xml
13:21 < Tonnerre> And even slower things, like XML over JSON
13:21 < nsf> :D
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13:22 < Tonnerre> I once had to simply put name -> hashtable with values
pairs into a BerkeleyDB
13:22 < DavidJones> pipes are one way only, named pipes are interesting but
still lack those abilities, not to talk about what these nice pals said : D
13:22 < Tonnerre> I asked the Python fans for a nice way to serialize their
hashes
13:22 < Tonnerre> They suggested JSON
13:22 < Tonnerre> That was when I went ahead and built something quickly
with XDR
13:22 < nsf> I think python's pickle is faster than json by many times
13:23 < nsf> especially cPickle
13:23 < Tonnerre> My XDR solution worked too
13:25 < nsf> also xml is not necessary slow, I don't know about json parser
implementation, but I know about one XML implementation:
http://code.google.com/p/pugixml/
13:25 < nsf> and it is very fast
13:25 < Tonnerre> Not as fast as XDR
13:25 < nsf> Tonnerre: XDR is a binary format isn't it?
13:26 < Tonnerre> Sure
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13:32 < wrtp> nsf: i'm not sure how an on-the-fly compiler helps with
dynamic loading, apart from, perhaps verifiability
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13:40 < DavidJones> too late wrtp
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13:44 < wrtp> oh yeah
13:45 < wrtp> i'm off and on here today...
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14:42 < psusi> I have a question about the leaky buffer example shown in
effective go.  why does this line not block: b, ok := <-freeList
14:43 < psusi> for that matter, how is it able to read two values from a
channel that only has one?
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14:50 < bjarneh> psusi: see the comment field, this is how you do a
non-blocking read from a channel i think..
14:50 < vrtical> psusi: that is the syntax for a non-blocking read.  The
compiler reads it and emits code that does it.
14:50 < psusi> comment field?
14:50 < vrtical> (the 'ok' isn't coming from the channel)
14:51 < psusi> ohh...  so the <- operator has two overloads, one that
returns the channel value, and one that returns the channel value, and a bool
indicating whether it actually read from the channel or not?
14:51 < bjarneh> psusi: after the // in the code..
14:51 < bjarneh> psusi: yes
14:51 < psusi> interesting...
14:53 < psusi> and this line: _ = freeList <- b...  the <- operator
has two overloads as well?  and the void overload is used when the result is not
assigned, and it blocks...  but this assignment causes the non blocking overload
to be used?
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15:01 < psusi> also what are the empty parens doing on the highlighted line
after the function body in this example: http://pastebin.com/aDvASb0y
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15:03 < vrtical> psusi: calling the function.
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15:03 < wrtp> psusi: the argument to defer is always a function call, not a
function value
15:03 < vrtical> if the function was defined elsewhere as foo, you'd write
defere foo() wouldn't you.
15:04 < psusi> ohh...  I suppose that makes sense...  just looked odd
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15:36 < psusi> wait a second...  so the built in -> and <- operators
are overloaded, but you can't make your own overloaded functions?  that seems a
little screwy
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15:51 < angasule> I just realised another reason to love Go, if I include
"fmt" in package foo, then bar imports foo, bar cannot use fmt unless it also
imports fmt
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15:54 < MaybeSo> yeah, one of the designers of Go (Pike) has a rant about
how to properly use include files, and that is reflected in how imports are
handled in Go
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15:56 < angasule> well, I haven't heard that rant (got a link?), but I know
I wholeheartedly agree...  #includes in C++ can be so easily misused it's not
funny
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16:05 < angasule> also, anyone who uses strings where an enum should go
should be set on fire
16:06 < MaybeSo> angasule: http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/pikestyle
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16:10 < angasule> very nice, thank you!  See you after lunch :-)
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17:15 < angasule> having read Pike's comments on #includes, I will say he's
an optimist :-) What I really loathe about #include within #includes, is that they
make stuff available down the line...  making it too easy to break unrelated code
when cleaning up a header, which often means leaving junk in the header "just in
case"
17:19 < nsf> trying to use C preprocessor right is a waste of time
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17:24 < MaybeSo> leaving junk in may be one reason the Go compiler rejects
imports of unused libraries
17:25 < Namegduf> Hrm.  If I am trying to write a server which needs to 1)
Have dynamically reloadable code for message handling, due to uptime requirements
and need for live upgrading.  2) Pass thousands of messages per second.
17:25 < Namegduf> Am I screwed?
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17:26 < Namegduf> Well, I say it needs dynamic loading and reloading, but
being restartable would be okay too- but I don't think Go exposes an API for that.
17:26 < Namegduf> And as I understand it, the GC won't permit me to exec()
myself and pretend nothing changed, because I'd need its cooperationn.
17:27 < Namegduf> Serialising doesn't work, because you can't serialise FDs.
17:27 < Namegduf> You can't pass open files between processes.
17:28 < Namegduf> How would someone else here solve this?
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17:29 < nsf> you can pass FDs between processes in linux
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17:29 < angasule> nsf: you are quite right (re: C pp)
17:30 < Namegduf> Hmm.
17:30 < Namegduf> Does Go expose an API for that?
17:31 < nsf> that I don't know
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17:35 < Namegduf> It'd be nice to have some kind of idiom for writing code
so it could be upgraded on the fly via restart or otherwise, if we can't use
dynamic loading to achieve the same goal.  An API for that would be helpful in
trying to build one, possibly.
17:41 < MaybeSo> I guess if I were writing such a system I'd think about it
in terms of having a load balancer or buffering proxy sitting in between the
client and the server, allowing one to tell the intermediacy process to point to a
different server process or to buffer calls for a few seconds while the server was
reloaded
17:42 < Namegduf> The problem is that it isn't a web server.
17:42 < MaybeSo> I wasn't thinking that it was one
17:43 < Namegduf> That idea only works if you're not stateful.
17:44 < Namegduf> What I've been writing to try out Go is an IRC server, and
the bulk of such a server's time is taken in message passing between clients; it
doesn't serve requests.  It's also very stateful and needs to preserve this if it
restarts, and has a fixed protocol to speak.
17:44 < MaybeSo> I don't think that's necessarily true, but yes I agree that
the amount of work it takes to migrate state information might make the idea
unpaltable
17:46 < Namegduf> Yeah; it has a lot of state updates and queries for things
such as permission checks.
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17:48 < angasule> why the requirement to have dynamically reloadable code
for message handling?
17:49 < Namegduf> It doesn't require that persay, but it does need the
ability to perform code upgrades without dropping client connections or losing
state.
17:50 < bartbes> well, going down for updates isn't anything too special in
IRC
17:50 < Namegduf> ...yes, it is.
17:50 < Namegduf> Every existing C server of significance has dynamically
reloadable modules.
17:50 < Namegduf> Restarts are generally reserved for major version changes.
17:50 < bartbes> hmm
17:51 < exch> Namegduf: how about passing existing connections to a new
instance of the process?
17:51 < bartbes> so, are you requesting dynamic libs?
17:51 < Namegduf> Not persay.
17:51 < bartbes> or just hot code swapping :P
17:51 < Namegduf> exch: Is there an API exposed for that?
17:52 < exch> Not as such, but it's very easy to prevent fd's from being
closed upon process exit
17:52 < exch> You can then use whatever mechanism you see fit to pass it
around
17:53 < exch> http://gist.github.com/476631 <- this forks itself and
passes the FD to an open file to it's child processes.  Updates a counter inside
that file on each cycle and ends with reading said counter to display it.
17:54 < exch> the 'magic' happens in openForkSafe().  In go, any kind of
sockety thing is opened with CLOEXEC.  This one explicitely removes it.
17:55 < exch> Youd have to do the same to reimplement the function that
opens your network connections.
17:55 < Namegduf> Hrm.  How would I listen for connections without CLOEXEC
being set on all the results?
17:55 * MaybeSo shakes fist at *CLOEXEC*
17:56 < MaybeSo> O_CLOEXEC that bit me the other day on an older linux
machine
17:56 < exch> I'm not sure how much of the network code you'd have to
rewrite to get a proper callchain going, but it should be doable
17:56 < MaybeSo>
(http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/8c59132467f027ce)
17:56 < Namegduf> Hmm, ew.
17:57 < exch> I think you can get away with simply copy/pasting most of it
as-is.  And only reimplement the actual syscall bit.
17:57 < Namegduf> So I'd need to rewrite a bunch of stuff to listen for
connections without CLOEXEC being set, spawn another copy of the server, serialise
the entire state of the server over, pass the FDs over, shut down the first
process, and start everything going again.
17:58 < exch> basically :p
17:58 < exch> The whole state thing is something you'd have to do in any
solution I think.
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18:12 < psusi> can't you just use fcntl to clear the O_CLOEXEC flag?
18:14 < exch> No idea.  Would certainly be worth a try though
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18:16 < psusi> so go doesn't support shared libs?
18:16 < MaybeSo> correct
18:17 < psusi> outch
18:17 < MaybeSo> not everyone thinks that is a bad thing.  :)
18:17 < exch> You can still work with shared libs through cgo, but I don't
miss them
18:17 < MaybeSo> there's a long thread going on right now on golang-nuts
about it
18:17 < psusi> wait, does not support shared libs, or does not support
dynamically linking to shared libs?
18:18 < Namegduf> Shared libs are a separate issue
18:18 < Namegduf> But no, it doesn't.
18:18 < psusi> i.e.  can you write a library in a .so, but can't dlopen()
one at runtime you don't know about at compile time?
18:19 < Namegduf> You cannot write shared libraries in Go at all.
18:19 < psusi> yikes
18:19 < Namegduf> You can use existing C libraries through cgo.
18:19 < exch> dynamic linking is out of the question.  That doesn't prevent
you from doing dynamic code loading through other means though.
18:19 < psusi> why is it out of the question?
18:19 < Namegduf> I'm still hoping for dynamic (re)loading of code in at
least one of the compilers.  I have no real care about dynamic linking
18:19 < exch> psusi: for a whole host of reasons.  You should check out the
relevant thred in the mailinglist
18:20 < exch> it has an interesting discussion
18:20 < Namegduf> I came after the invention of these cool things called
"package managers" and distain the use of operating systems without them, so I've
never had the hell they discuss.  But I don't think it matters.
18:20 < psusi> also I was wondering about interaction with C libraries...
it seems the go thread model is not compatible with C libs
18:20 < Namegduf> Dynamic linking isn't particularly useful,
functionality-wise.
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18:20 < psusi> since a C lib can allocate thread local storage...  which
doesn't map well to goroutines
18:20 < Namegduf> Dynamic loading is.
18:21 < Namegduf> psusi: You can bind a goroutine to a thread
18:21 < exch> psusi: You can interact with c libs, but you do need to be
aware of the fact that go does garbage collection when you are dealing with data
from a c lib
18:21 < Namegduf> So that goroutine and only that goroutine runs on that
thread, and on no other.
18:21 < Namegduf> And then you can safely rely on TLS storage in C working
okay.
18:22 < Namegduf> C APIs will (and must) document when further calls into a
library must be from the same thread.
18:22 < Namegduf> It isn't that common.
18:22 < psusi> ahh, so you have to do some special work to configure a 1:1
relationship between goroutines and threads before calling C libs?
18:22 < Namegduf> No.
18:22 < Namegduf> Only when calling /those/ C libraries.
18:22 < Namegduf> Ones using TLS.
18:23 < Namegduf> "Further calls must be from the same thread." is something
that will be documented for a library function.
18:23 < psusi> I don't think I've ever seen that really documented
18:23 < exch> psusi: 2 page discussion on pros/cons of dynamic linking:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/26f3738b149510a9/df8f9e647545f842
18:23 < Namegduf> psusi: That's probably because it's unusual to require it.
18:23 < Namegduf> psusi: C has threads, too, and requiring further calls be
from the same thread is a significant restriction there, too.
18:23 < psusi> just because it uses tls doesn't mean all calls ahve to be in
the same thread
18:23 < Namegduf> If they don't have to be, then Go making calls from random
threads won't be an issue.
18:24 < Namegduf> All goroutines do is make it so that C function calls can
come from any thread the goroutine happens to be scheduled on.
18:24 < psusi> hrm....  I was more worried about reentrancy, but I suppose
once the thread calls into the c lib, it can't execute another goroutine in that
same thread that could make the same call until the first returns...
18:25 < Namegduf> Right.
18:25 < Namegduf> If the C functions don't allow this, they will document
it, and then you need to bind the goroutine to a specific thread.
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18:25 < Namegduf> Yeah, reentrancy within the same thread won't be an issue.
18:25 < Namegduf> A thread can only do the one thing at once.
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18:34 * psusi also never did buy the dll hell argument...  never even experienced
it on windows, let alone a proper linux distro.  more common on windows to see
applications that ship their own dll in their directory and use that instead of
the shared one, which kind of defeats the purpose...
18:34 < Namegduf> That's kinda a workaround that shows the problem is there
18:35 < MaybeSo> psusi: I experienced when glibc went into a constant state
of flux some years ago
18:35 < MaybeSo> linux packages were breaking left and right
18:35 < Namegduf> What distro?
18:35 < MaybeSo> I was probably on debian back then
18:36 * Namegduf didn't notice, because he was on Gentoo or GoboLinux at the time,
and broken was the default state
18:36 < psusi> Namegduf: the problem seems to stem from the fact that
windows does not have proper package management, and a few assholes decided to
modify a library, break ABI, then replace the existing one on people's systems
with their broken version
18:36 < Namegduf> psusi: I think the people who complain about the problem
are UNIX people
18:36 < Namegduf> Or people with experience of UNIX-like OSes, more
precisely
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18:37 < psusi> funny, seems to me that they identified the problem in
windows before ld was ever written, and made sure to deal with it correctly
18:37 < psusi> err, dl
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18:37 < exch> having to redownliad/build all packages when dealing with
static linking is really the only point for dyn linking I can agree with.  It's a
massive undertaking if you have a lot of statically linked binaries.  The modern
dya package managers will present all updates as needed anyways though.
18:37 < MaybeSo> at the time I started to seriously think the BSD style
'ports' directory, where an admin would maintain an enormous tree of *everything*
for a system, was a good idea!  :)
18:38 < Namegduf> exch: I think dynamic linking is a great idea for
distribution packages, and static linking good for things distributed outside of
the main repositories.
18:38 < psusi> exch: yea, but you still have to build/download all of the
dependent packages
18:38 < Namegduf> That said, I don't have the experience to give that
opinion any weight, so I focus on trying to solve my actual problem somehow
18:38 < exch> true, but that only becomes a problem for stuff right down at
the bottom of the tree
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18:40 < psusi> true, if you want to distribute a binary without a proper
package manager then you probably want to statically link
18:41 < exch> When it comes down to it though, both sides of the fence state
either one is 'much' faster/slower, more/less secure than the other.  but nobody
ever provides proof to that effect.  i'd be interested in seeing some facts
18:42 < Namegduf> "secure" is a mess to measure.
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18:42 < psusi> huh?  I've never heard a speed or security argument, just
system configuration difficulties vs storage
18:43 < Namegduf> psusi: Dynamic linking requires doing the linking at
startup
18:43 < Namegduf> Finding all the relevant libraries and loading them into
memory, or at least mapping them into the process.
18:43 < psusi> sure...  slight overhead to fix up pointers at startup...  of
course, it means you don't have to read more data from the very slow disk since
the shared lib is already in ram
18:44 < psusi> so depending on your exact environment and process lifetime,
one or the other could be faster
18:45 < psusi> plus you can prelink to avoid the need for the fixups being
done at process startup
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18:45 < psusi> which iirc, is always done on 64bit
18:45 < psusi> or rather, is not needed to get the same result
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18:48 * psusi worked on the process startup and dynamic linking code in ReactOS
years ago...  starting to come back now...
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18:55 < tumdum> where can i find information how should Makefile look like
for gotest?
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18:56 < psusi> oh dear...  "As somebody else pointed out: almost all those
programs are examples of how *not* to design and build software.  " when refering
to some of the most wildly successful software in the world is absurd...
18:56 < Namegduf> Sadly not.
18:57 < Namegduf> A lot of large, popular software is quite poor in terms of
quality.
18:57 < MaybeSo> psusi: sendmail was wildly successful but I wouldn't call
it great software.  :)
18:57 < Namegduf> Firefox, for example.  :P
18:57 < Namegduf> OpenOffice is one I'd love to mention but it isn't even
widely used
18:57 < psusi> apache?
18:57 < Namegduf> Apache is huge and bloaty compared to pretty much all the
other webservers
18:57 < psusi> hell, one that isn't in that list but should be: the linux
kernel
18:58 < psusi> that's a bit like saying the space shuttle is huge and
bloated compared to all other rockets
18:58 < exch> tumdum: a normal package makefile will do.  it defines the
rules for gotest.  You should just make sure you have a file called 'foo_test.go'
in the same location as the makefile.  gotest will look for that file and biuld
the tests from it.
19:00 < Namegduf> psusi: No, not really.
19:00 < exch> tumdum: The key is to add 'include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.pkg' to
end end of your makefile
19:00 < Namegduf> psusi: There are other webservers that have similar
functionality such as rewriting, FastCGI, SSI, etc, and are much more reasonable
in terms of resource usage.
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19:01 < Namegduf> Doesn't Apache still need to be run in multiprocess mode
with a process per connection for mod_php, even?  That's not precisely the model
of efficiency.
19:01 < Namegduf> Just because its code isn't properly threadsafe.
19:01 < psusi> I've seen quite a few that can do basic page serving quite
quick and lightly, but not with the power and flexibility of apache, which I would
think is why it is so successful
19:02 < Namegduf> Yes, but you're incorrect to assume that it's JUST Apache
that can do things other than basic page serving.
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19:02 < Namegduf> Lighttpd and Cherokee are two fairly popular competitors,
both of which are much lighter on resource usage.
19:02 < Namegduf> Cherokee at least can do rewriting.
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19:02 < Namegduf> (Both, of course, can do FastCGI or similar)
19:03 < psusi> and also significantly less feature rich afaik
19:03 < Namegduf> I'm not actually aware of any other features Apache has
which I would care about
19:03 < Namegduf> FastCGI and URL rewriting is about it
19:03 < Namegduf> Paying a massive performance premium for other things is
far from worth it.
19:03 < derferman> If all you want is fastcgi and url writing, you should be
using nginx
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19:05 < tumdum> exch: thx :)
19:05 < Namegduf> The common fallacy that all other webservers are missing
important functionality is, at the least, false, nor that Apache needs to be so
heavy on resources to implement what it does.
19:05 < Namegduf> So yeah, it's popular, but it's also a poor example of
software design.
19:05 < psusi> this is getting a bit afield from the initial discussion of
dynamic linking ;)
19:07 < psusi> also pointing out the inefficiencies in apache seems to be
counter to the initial argument that it is an example of why dynamic linking is
bad, when if it put everything in its own process and uses pipes, would be far
worse
19:08 < bartbes> heh
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19:11 < wobsite> Hey all, quick question: I'm looking at the ReadFrom method
of the ReaderFrom type in the io package, it isn't clear to me what the return
value 'n' is supposed to be.  same thing for the WriterTo type.  does anyone know
off hand?
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19:14 < exch> it yields the amount of data read/written
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19:17 < wobsite> ok.  that's what I would have guessed.  the docs don't
actually say though, wanted to double check.
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20:09 < tensorpudding> I'm trying to benchmark a function, but go won't let
me assign a value without doing something with it.  What do I do to tell Go that I
don't care about the output of this function?
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20:10 < exch> use _ as the 'variable
20:10 < exch> a, _, c := foo()
20:10 < exch> it serves as a sort of 'black hole' for data you don't need
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20:11 < tensorpudding> it complains when I do _ := foo()
20:11 < tensorpudding> but I got it to work by just not assigning it at all
20:12 < exch> you don't need the : when just using _
20:12 < exch> _ = foo() should work..  But for this one value you could
indeed just ignor it entirely
20:12 < exch> *ignore
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20:14 < tensorpudding> huh, that's sad
20:14 < tensorpudding> the goroutines version is about 100x slower
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21:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dKIZk by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
import dot shadowing bug
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22:29 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dKPhy by [Russ Cox] in 5 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
fix smaller-than-pointer-sized receivers in interfaces
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22:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dKQXv by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/cmd/godoc/ -- godoc: display synopses for all packages that have some kind
of documentation.
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23:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dKVLR by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/net/ -- net:
TCPConn.SetNoDelay, back by popular demand
23:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dKVM2 by [Peter Mundy] in go/src/pkg/runtime/
-- runtime: fix goc2c for rename to goc2c and *.goc
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23:49 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dKXmt by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
fmt.Scanf: handle trailing spaces.
--- Log closed Tue Jul 27 00:00:05 2010