--- Log opened Thu Aug 12 00:00:02 2010
--- Day changed Thu Aug 12 2010
00:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/edFf0 by [Kyle Consalus] in go/src/pkg/html/
-- Small performance improvements to the HTML tokenizer based on your 'TODO's.
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00:14 < uriel> iant: hey!  tried to contact you last week, but I guess you
already were on your way back home, hope good flight and a great time in Sweden ;)
00:19 <+iant> hi, yeah, we left Sweden a week ago
00:20 <+iant> I just got back to California
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00:41 < leimy> anyone implementing REST servers with Go?
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00:48 < dho> hi, i'm bored tonight.
00:48 < dho> what's been going on in goville
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00:56 < leimy> Considering writing a new service to a management product we
ship in Go
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03:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/edQNy by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/sync/ --
sync.once: document that Do cannot be invoked recursively.
03:06 < leimy> ReDo!
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04:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/edWOZ by [Robert Griesemer] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/ -- gofmt: if a semicolon is found unexpectedly, report detailed cause
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04:42 < poet> how do you extract documentation with godoc from new commands?
I can't seem to get it to generate from my doc.go file.
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04:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/edXNC by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/regexp/ --
regexp: new regularized methods for matching.
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04:57 < MizardX> An update to the regexp package.  A large one at that.
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05:08 < plexdev> http://is.gd/edYRE by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- 5g, 8g: dead code (already removed from 6g)
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05:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee0ig by [Russ Cox] in 4 subdirs of go/ --
gopack: handle long lines in export data
05:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee0in by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- A+C: Mikio Hara
(individual CLA)
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05:42 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee1mm by [Russ Cox] in 4 subdirs of go/ -- 6g,
8g: handle slice by sub-word-sized index (uint8, int8, uint16, int16)
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05:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee2jX by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- release.2010-08-11
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05:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee2k7 by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- tag
release.2010-08-11
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06:09 < taruti> Is there a DeepCopy(interface{}) ?
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06:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee3pc by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- re-tag
release.2010-08-11
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07:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee6w9 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/testing/ --
testing: delete the less useful methods in the testing regexp package
07:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee6wh by [Rob Pike] in 5 subdirs of go/ --
update the tree to use the new regexp methods
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07:19 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee7EA by [Mikio Hara] in go/src/pkg/net/ --
net: make IPv6 String method standards compliant
07:19 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee7EG by [Ivan Krasin] in go/lib/codereview/
-- codereview.py: Fix issues with leading tabulation in the Files: section of CL
description.
07:19 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ee7F2 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/regexp/ --
regexp: delete the deprecated methods and tests.
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12:26 * nsf thinks that interface{} should always box value in a form of a pointer
to a value
12:26 < nsf> :(
12:32 < Namegduf> nsf: Any reason why?
12:33 < nsf> I don't like inconsistency
12:33 < nsf> if your struct is small enough it is copied
12:33 < nsf> if not it's not
12:33 < Namegduf> That's about the best behaviour for performance, though.
12:34 < Namegduf> Actually, if the struct, not the struct pointer, meets the
interface, it is always copied
12:34 < nsf> I don't think that when we're talking about interface{} we
should think about performance in the first place
12:34 < Namegduf> I disagree.  Strongly.
12:34 < nsf> are you sure?
12:34 < Namegduf> Yes.
12:34 < nsf> uhm..  so it is copied to a newly allocated memory if it's big
enough?
12:34 < Namegduf> I believe so, yes.
12:34 < nsf> and a pointer stored in the interface
12:34 < nsf> hm..
12:35 < nsf> that makes sense then
12:35 < Namegduf> It doesn't actually make much difference, because if the
struct meets the interface
12:35 < Namegduf> None of the methods on the interface are able to change
the struct
12:35 < Namegduf> Because they all take the struct as a parameter, not a
pointer to it.
12:35 < nsf> well, I mostly talk about interface{}
12:35 < nsf> for using together with reflection
12:36 < nsf> but if it's really copied then it's ok
12:36 < Namegduf> That will show the difference, then, yeah.
12:36 < nsf> because it maintains semantics of a value
12:36 < Namegduf> Might want to check, but that is my understanding of how
it works.
12:36 < Namegduf> Yeah.
12:37 < Namegduf> Which makes sense, because it's a value you're assigning
to the interface.
12:37 < Namegduf> While if you're assigning a pointer, it behaves by
reference.
12:38 < nsf> yep, I don't care optimizations, but I do care about consistent
semantics..  and if it works that way, it's ok then
12:38 < nsf> so I'll check that :)
12:38 < nsf> thanks
12:39 < Namegduf> No problem.
12:39 < Namegduf> Reflection makes performance not an issue, because it
should be avoided in code that cares
12:39 < Namegduf> But abstraction is something you don't want to have to
avoid
12:40 < nsf> I'm writing my config thing
12:40 < Namegduf> Ah.
12:40 < nsf> and I want it to take an arbitrary struct value
12:40 < nsf> and figure out all fields for writing/reading the actual config
12:40 < nsf> :)
12:40 < Namegduf> Interesting.
12:40 < Namegduf> Tricky for modular software, but interesting.
12:41 < Namegduf> (Either it runs in init(), and everything gets access to
the config during init, but can't influence it, or it runs after init(), and
things can influence the config entries loaded during init, but can't use it)
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12:58 < nsf> also I have an idea for "anonymous struct literals", consider
this: http://pastie.org/1088206
12:59 < nsf> it might be useful for reflection-based APIs
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13:00 < aiju> how does one convert an integer to a string, like CHR$ in
basic?
13:00 < nsf> see strconv package
13:00 < nsf> http://golang.org/pkg/strconv/
13:02 < leimy> wow CHR$
13:02 < leimy> that's a blast from the past :-)
13:03 < aiju> heh there is no need for such a thing in C
13:03 < leimy> strtol :-)
13:04 < aiju> no, that's something different
13:04 < aiju> CHR$(65) is "A"
13:04 < leimy> and that's the other way around :-)
13:04 < leimy> right in C 65 is 'A'
13:04 < nsf> in go you can convert integer to a string too
13:04 < nsf> using standard type cast form
13:04 < nsf> string(65)
13:04 < nsf> should give you the same
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13:05 < leimy> In Erlang strings are lists of integers
13:05 < leimy> integers of the word size of the machine actually
13:05 < aiju> oh hf on 64-bit machines
13:05 < leimy> so "hello" is 5 32 bit ints on a 32 bit platform with a 32bit
pointer between them :-)
13:06 < leimy> Yeah it's terribly inefficient, but convenient for some
things.
13:06 < leimy> there's a bitstring syntax to pack it into an array of 8 bit
bytes.
13:06 < taruti> then again for performance sensitive things erlang has
binaries
13:06 < leimy> right
13:07 < leimy> I've written a lot of Erlang in the last 3 years at work, and
have had to deal with this stuff.
13:07 < leimy> I've been overall quite impressed with the language, but wish
it had stronger typing.
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13:11 < leimy> new go release while I was sleeping.  :-)
13:11 < aiju> lol
13:11 < leimy> have to update at work :-)
13:11 < leimy> ttyl!
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13:14 < aiju> all that "unused" messages annoy me to hell
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13:36 < jcao219> the missing newline messages are annoying
13:36 < jcao219> but easy to fix
13:36 < jcao219> for me
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13:50 < nickaugust> so wait does P = NP or not?
13:50 < aiju> P != NP, if that proof is right
13:50 < jcao219> no one knows for sure
13:50 < jcao219> but that proof
13:50 < jcao219> yea
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13:50 < nickaugust> honestly how the hell could P = NP
13:56 < rsaarelm> Why do you think it's implausible?
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13:59 < jcao219> i mean
13:59 < jcao219> you only need to find one instance where P = NP
13:59 < jcao219> well
13:59 < jcao219> i can't remember how it gos
13:59 < jcao219> goes*
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14:01 < rsaarelm> Yeah, one instance would do, since you can reduce all
NP-complete problems to each other.
14:01 < Namegduf> Yep.
14:02 < nickaugust> yesterday was the first time ive heard of this so im by
no means an expert...  but it only takes one computation to find P and takes a
multitude to find NP..  i cant imagine a situation where it wouldnt...  thats the
basic thinking right?
14:02 < Namegduf> One instance, and most of cryptography falls apart.
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14:04 < rsaarelm> nickaugust: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to
describe.
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14:04 < rsaarelm> NP computations are ones that are doable in polynomial
time if you have a magical nondeterministic Turing machine that can explore all
computation paths at once.
14:05 < nickaugust> rsaarelm: can you explain to me what polynomial time is
14:05 < nickaugust> ?
14:05 < impl> I had one of those once, but then OPEC found out about it and
raided my house and stole it and the plans and wiped my backups
14:06 < rsaarelm> nickaugust: Yeah.  Your algorithms are quantified by the
number of things they get as input, n.  Polynomial time algorithms are ones that
only take n to the power of some constant number time to run.  Like n^3, times
some constant.
14:07 < Namegduf> NP computations are computations whose result is checkable
quickly
14:07 < Namegduf> But which are slow to calculate
14:07 < Namegduf> And they include most backdoor functions used in
cryptography
14:07 < impl> nickaugust: polynomial time means that the execution time of
the algorithm is related by a polynomial expression to the size of the input
14:07 < Namegduf> P computations are computations which are both doable and
checkable quickly.
14:07 < Namegduf> P = NP, in English, "If you can check it quickly, you can
calculate it quickly"
14:07 < rsaarelm> If the algorithm takes 2^n time, it's no longer
polynomial, it's exponential.  Then you're basically hosed if you need to run it
with any nontrivially smal n.
14:08 < nickaugust> ah gotcha thanks
14:09 < aiju> but "quickly" in the weird computer scientist definition
14:09 < nickaugust> so we just need a computer that can run enough
concurrent threads?
14:11 < Namegduf> Not "really"
14:11 < rsaarelm> You're trying the get the nondeterministic Turing machine
that way?
14:11 < Namegduf> You're doing the same, exponential amount of work
14:11 < Namegduf> You're just doing it in the same time by parallelisation.
14:11 < aiju> parallelisation can't reduce complexity
14:12 < rsaarelm> Yes, the nondeterminism thing really blows up if you start
simulating it naively.
14:12 * nickaugust googles nondeterministic Turing machine
14:12 < aiju> nondetermistic stuff *sigh*
14:12 < aiju> dd if=/dev/urandom is a non-deterministic prime number
generator
14:13 < rsaarelm> nickaugust: Expect to get some brain-hurt unless you've
done some introductionary CS theory with Turing machines etc before.
14:14 < rsaarelm> At least the Wikipedia page looks pretty unfriendly to
anyone who doesn't already know how CS people talk about the computation
formalisms.
14:14 < aiju> that's Wikipedia
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14:18 < nickaugust> so basicly a deterministic Turing machine can only have
one rule for a given state/input and a nondeterministic machine can have multiple
rules for each state/input combination
14:18 < nickaugust> which sounds a bit nonsensical :)
14:18 < aiju> a nondeterministic is basically a deterministic one which had
a few beers
14:19 * str1ngs hic
14:20 < rsaarelm> And the nondeterministic one is assumed to always
magically pick the best possible choice out of several possible so it'll home in
on the problem's solution for the case of P ?= NP.
14:21 < aiju> probably just the same way OOP is believed to make all code
nice and proper
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14:26 < str1ngs> how do I get the value of a channel ie.  c := make(chan
string) c <- "foo"
14:27 < exch> 'val := <- c' for blocking behaviour.  Or 'val, ok := <-
c' for non-blocking.
14:27 < exch> Or a select{} statement if you want to poll multiple channels
at the same time
14:27 < str1ngs> thank you was non-blocking I needed.
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14:29 < str1ngs> hmm good to know about the select part.
14:31 < aiju> how would one implement a dynamic array in go?
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14:34 < str1ngs> aiju: I think you might want a slice
14:34 < jcao219> yep slices are the way to go
14:35 < aiju> *scratcheshead* how?
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14:35 < jcao219> hmm
14:35 < str1ngs> aiju: http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#slices
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14:36 < aiju> so there's no library function to do that?
14:37 < str1ngs> aiju: there are containers.  something like a string vector
14:38 < jcao219> library function to do what..
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14:38 < aiju> dynamic arrays
14:39 < taruti> or use container/vector
14:39 < nickaugust> the arrays dont grow dynamicly..  you have to allocate a
certain amount of memory when they are defined
14:40 < nickaugust> you can use slices to just look at part of an array
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14:40 < nickaugust> if you need to grow an array larger than its capacity
you actually copy it to a new array.  thats what the vector package does behind
the scenes.
14:41 < nickaugust> right guys?  thats my understanding of it
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14:41 < str1ngs> slices are dynamic
14:41 < jcao219> yea
14:41 < jcao219> slices are basically dynamic
14:41 < str1ngs> think of slices as buffered arrays they grow in chunks
14:41 < jcao219> almost
14:41 < aiju> i just noticed, a linked list seems more appropriate
14:42 < nickaugust> so the slices with copy to a new array if your over
capacity?
14:42 < jcao219> slices are pointers to arrays
14:42 < jcao219> basically
14:42 < jcao219> so if you increase capacity
14:42 < str1ngs> nickaugust: it gets handles.  if the underlying array get
copied I dont know.
14:42 < jcao219> you basically create new array, copy the old elements over
14:42 < jcao219> and update the pointer
14:42 < aiju> no such thing as realloc?  ;)
14:43 < jcao219> specifically
14:43 < nickaugust> ah, then the slice points to the new arry...  gotcha.
thanks
14:43 < jcao219> slices are structs with a pointer to an array
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14:48 < aiju> why do i have to return from a function if i name the results?
seems retarded
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14:55 < aiju> grrr i think i'll modify the compiler and remove those just
plain stupid errors
14:56 < nickaugust> aiju: you dont have to return the results but you have
to return
14:57 < aiju> ("unused variable" and such)
14:57 < nsf> do it
14:57 < aiju> not to encourage bad programming practices, but they are just
plain annoying during development
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14:58 < nsf> yeah, add warnings to a compiler
14:58 < nsf> if you will be able to provide decent quality for that, I will
use your fork :)
15:00 < Namegduf> I don't see why they're annoying 'during' development
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15:00 < Namegduf> As oppposed to in general
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15:01 < Namegduf> I believe it is required to explicitly say that you want
to return the named results.
15:01 < wrtp> aiju: naming return values is commonplace, even for functions
where you actually want to do an explicit return.  the compiler error catches a
very common class of error.
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15:02 < str1ngs> I like the errors personally.
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15:03 < aiju> i don't like the "compiler should check the programming style"
(aka bondage) style
15:04 < nsf> I do understand why devs are forcing that
15:04 < nsf> because they don't want people to be able to write bad code
15:04 < jcao219> i think its good
15:04 < nsf> it's a good intention
15:04 < jcao219> what style are they forcing anyways
15:04 < aiju> people will write bad code in any language
15:05 < aiju> bondage languages are just plain annoying
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15:05 < nsf> aiju: but it doesn't mean we should allow them to do whatever
they want to
15:05 < str1ngs> some context would help.
15:05 < jcao219> what's the bondage in go
15:05 < jcao219> seriously
15:05 < jcao219> it's pretty free to me
15:05 < aiju> str1ngs: somewhat general, esp.  the "unused variable" stuff
15:05 < nsf> on the other hand I personally very careful with warnings
15:05 < jcao219> unused variables are useless
15:05 < nsf> and all my C apps are compiling with zero warnings (-Wall)
15:06 < jcao219> why would anybody want to write unused variables
15:06 < str1ngs> aiju: use _.  but generally its to avoid cruft.  just like
the unused packages.
15:06 < aiju> i write my code rather interactively, i.e.  i write a bit and
see whether it works
15:06 < nsf> so, I don't really see a point of making warnings as errors
15:06 < jcao219> warnings?
15:06 < nsf> yes
15:06 < jcao219> i'm not even sure if go has warnings
15:06 < nsf> simple example: fmt package
15:07 < nsf> sometimes you import it for debug printing
15:07 < nsf> and then you leave it there but remove debug statements
15:07 < nsf> compiler complains
15:07 < nsf> I'd be happy with warning here
15:07 < jcao219> lol who debugs with fmt
15:07 < nsf> me
15:07 < str1ngs> println?
15:07 < jcao219> o.o
15:07 < jcao219> print+println if u must
15:07 < nsf> println doesn't have fmt line
15:07 < jcao219> true
15:07 < nsf> have you tried printing floats with it?
15:08 < jcao219> heh
15:08 < nsf> you should try that, really
15:08 < jcao219> yea
15:08 < jcao219> println(13.30) works fine
15:08 < jcao219> i thought
15:08 < jcao219> yea it does
15:09 < nsf> [nsf @ ~]$ ./test
15:09 < nsf> +1.330000e+001
15:09 < nsf> 13.30...
15:09 < nsf> kthxbye
15:09 < str1ngs> or modify gofmt to remove your cruft :P
15:09 < jcao219> lol
15:09 < nsf> I want to see my 13.30 not that +1.330000e+001
15:10 < nsf> especially when you print things like vectors or even matrices
15:10 < str1ngs> ok so have a stub function that uses all your unused cruft
:P
15:10 < nsf> good luck reading println stuff
15:10 < jcao219> hehe
15:10 < aiju> str1ngs: why not just MODIFY THE DAMN COMPILER?
15:10 < str1ngs> aiju: you are free to do so
15:10 < jcao219> still
15:10 < jcao219> it's weird if you use fmt to debug
15:10 < str1ngs> but my guess is gofmt would be faster :P
15:10 < jcao219> but you never use fmt in ur regular program
15:10 < aiju> "this car makes a loud noise if you don't have the windows
closed"
15:11 < aiju> "to compensate it, it comes with free earplugs"
15:12 < jcao219> hey i got a solution
15:12 < jcao219> if you do
15:12 < jcao219> import _ "fmt"
15:12 < jcao219> it gives no error
15:12 < nsf> and imports nothing
15:12 < nsf> and I still have to edit it
15:12 < nsf> to get my fmt
15:13 < nsf> I'd rather use comments for that
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15:13 < nsf> / import "fmt"
15:13 < nsf> ///
15:13 < nsf> damn irc
15:13 < jcao219> wait
15:13 < nsf> well, you get it
15:13 < jcao219> i mean
15:13 < skelterjohn> adding a "_" to the import statement is just as
inconvenient as adding "//"
15:13 < jcao219> lol nvm
15:13 < nickaugust> thats what i do just comment out the fmt package...
kind of annoying though you're right
15:13 < skelterjohn> except that "_" adds a package dependency and makes
your binary bigger
15:13 < str1ngs> irc should warn about / :P
15:13 < aiju> no, it should report on error and close
15:13 < aiju> *a
15:13 < str1ngs> hehe
15:14 < nsf> :)
15:14 < jcao219> lol
15:14 < nsf> well, there is a known trick how to make unused package used
15:15 < nsf> just add somewhere thing like that: _ = fmt.Printf
15:15 < nsf> but I'd like to see warnings in the compiler
15:15 < str1ngs> I'm more bothered about handling os.Error all the time.
its gotten to the point I just do if err != nil { panic("kaboom") }
15:15 < nsf> I do that all the time
15:15 < jcao219> lol
15:16 < nsf> that's what panic for
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15:16 < nsf> if you don't know how or don't want to deal with error
15:16 < jcao219> panic is for non-recoverable
15:16 < nsf> just panic about it
15:16 < jcao219> lol
15:16 < MizardX> defer func() { err = recover() }
15:16 < aiju> i do that in the OS I write..
15:16 < nsf> at least if it happens you know what happened
15:16 < MizardX> ()
15:16 < aiju> if(somethingwrong) panic(...);
15:16 < nsf> aiju: good luck with that
15:16 < aiju> so it will probably have as much bluescreens as Win 98
15:17 < nsf> you totally don't get my point
15:17 < skelterjohn> for dealing with errors, if i don't want to handle it
carefully, i give the function i'm in a named return value err
15:17 < aiju> but they're actually rainbowscreens, so they're pleasant and
nice!
15:17 < skelterjohn> and do "err = whatever(); if err != nil {return}"
15:17 < nsf> there are three things you can do with error
15:17 < nsf> 1.  handle it
15:17 < Namegduf> Panics within a package may be used as an exception-like
mechanism if you like
15:17 < nsf> 2.  ignore it
15:17 < nsf> 3.  panic about it
15:17 < Namegduf> Panics should never escape a package unless they are a
fatal error.
15:17 < nsf> 1 and 3 are must
15:17 < aiju> 4.  ask they user whether they want to abort, retry or
continue
15:17 < nsf> 2 is ok in some cases
15:17 < Namegduf> You should consider a panic leaving a package asa crash.
15:18 < aiju> -y
15:18 < aiju> o.O /me just used they as a singular genderfree prenoun
15:19 < skelterjohn> we'll forgive you.
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15:19 < nsf> aiju: sometimes 4 is a very bad thing
15:19 < nsf> especially if a user is dumb and have no idea what that error
means
15:19 < nsf> has*
15:19 < str1ngs> pipes dont like that kinda thing :P
15:20 < aiju> oh that's annoying, i want to name one result, but not the
both
15:20 < aiju> -the
15:20 < nsf> aiju: what's the point of that?
15:20 < nsf> name both
15:20 < aiju> e.g.  something like func sum(...) (res int, os.Error)
15:21 < nsf> and how you gonna return this?
15:21 < Namegduf> Just call it err
15:21 < aiju> then it complains
15:21 < aiju> unused variable
15:21 < skelterjohn> er?
15:21 < nickaugust> heh
15:21 < aiju> in the end i'll just have them both unnamed
15:21 < aiju> is the least troublesome
15:21 < Namegduf> Yeah, that seems sensible.
15:22 < Namegduf> A return statement has to specify all or no return values,
I believe.
15:22 < skelterjohn> you don't have to use a named return value
15:22 < Namegduf> So there's no sense in having one named but not the other.
15:22 < skelterjohn> compiler will not complain
15:22 < skelterjohn> don't make up errors without seeing them first =p
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15:23 < aiju> oh hups, that was a variable in another function *whistle
15:24 < skelterjohn> sure it was
15:24 < aiju> i also don't like that braces are required for if :/
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15:24 < nsf> maybe you shouldn't use go
15:24 < nsf> you complain too much
15:24 < nickaugust> aiju: how much go have you written so far?
15:24 < aiju> not much, it's just my initial impressions
15:24 < nickaugust> give it a chance!  :)
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15:24 < aiju> nsf: so far, i like it very much
15:24 < nickaugust> are you just reading over the langauge spec and
nitpicking?
15:25 < aiju> but everything can be improved ;)
15:25 < aiju> nickaugust: yeah D:
15:25 < skelterjohn> requiring braces allows the compiler to not require
parentheses, i believe
15:25 < nsf> aiju: but then why are you telling us all that stuff
15:25 < nsf> just write some code
15:25 < nsf> and then see whether you really like some feature or not
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15:32 < nickaugust> str1ngs: jcao219: i still dont see how slices are
dynamic...  like i cant do s[len(s)] = "asdf"
15:33 < nsf> they are not dynamic
15:33 < Namegduf> What is your definition of "dynamic"?
15:33 < nsf> they are just..  slices
15:33 < jcao219> lol
15:33 < nsf> they do zero memory allocations
15:33 < jcao219> s[len(s)] = "asdf"...  wow
15:33 < jcao219> that's
15:33 < Namegduf> Do you mean "writeable"?
15:33 < Namegduf> Or replaceable?
15:33 < jcao219> you can't even do that in python
15:34 < jcao219> and python is super dynamic
15:34 < skelterjohn> python doesn't have slices
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15:34 < jcao219> no python *is* dynamic
15:34 < skelterjohn> in the same sense
15:34 < Namegduf> No, they aren't, that would require reallocating the
backing array
15:34 < skelterjohn> a slice points to a list that may be larger than the
slice
15:34 < jcao219> you can't necessarily do s[len(s)] = "asdf" either
15:34 < nsf> Namegduf: not necessary
15:34 < Namegduf> Thus invalidating every other slice onto it
15:34 < jcao219> in go
15:34 < skelterjohn> you can lengthen the slice up to the capacity of the
underlying array
15:34 < nsf> necessarly*
15:34 < nsf> necessarily*
15:34 < nsf> !
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15:34 < nsf> :)
15:35 < jcao219> lol
15:35 < nickaugust> jcao219 | slices are basically dynamic
15:35 < nickaugust> str1ngs | think of slices as buffered arrays they grow
in chunks
15:35 < jcao219> yea, they are
15:35 < skelterjohn> btw when one refers to a language as "dynamic", they
usually mean the type system
15:35 < skelterjohn> rather than the array allocation
15:35 < nickaugust> i was saying you have to do it manually
15:35 < aiju> the word "dynamic" should be a badword
15:35 < jcao219> yea
15:35 < nsf> nickaugust: they lied
15:35 < aiju> if you use it you should be kicked
15:35 < jcao219> if you mean like some array with a builtin append
15:35 < aiju> rl included
15:36 < nickaugust> nsf: thats what i thought
15:36 < aiju> "dynamic", "safe" and "object-oriented"
15:36 < nsf> nickaugust:
http://go.hokapoka.com/golang/append-add-to-a-go-lang-collection-part-2/
15:37 < nickaugust> thx
15:37 < nsf> oh..  wait
15:37 < nsf> that's the second part
15:37 < nsf>
http://go.hokapoka.com/golang/append-add-to-a-go-lang-collection/
15:37 < nsf> hokapoka is quick writing new blog posts :)
15:37 < Namegduf> nickaugust: Slices are pointers, and a length, into an
existing array, which also know how far between their end and the array's end.
15:37 < nsf> nickaugust: the first part has example of a "grow array"
function
15:38 < Namegduf> They can do pretty much exactly what you can do with that,
and not much else.
15:38 < nsf> Namegduf: and a capacity
15:38 < Namegduf> nsf: That was the last clause of my sentence.
15:38 < skelterjohn> capacity = "how far between their end and the array's
end"
15:38 < skelterjohn> or rather, they can be derived from each other
15:38 < nsf> ok
15:38 < Namegduf> You can grow them up to the size of the underlying array,
and reallocate the underlying array to grow yet larger, to simulate a "vector",
but you have to do it manually.
15:38 < nsf> :)
15:39 < aiju> or you use container/vector
15:39 < skelterjohn> which isn't type safe
15:39 < Namegduf> Which does it for you, yes.
15:39 < nsf> or forget about container/vector
15:39 < nsf> because it's crap
15:39 < skelterjohn> is it?  why?
15:39 < Namegduf> Automatic growth of arrays is overrated, anyway.
15:39 < skelterjohn> seemed like a pretty straightforward piece of code
15:39 < nsf> not type safe, uses interface{}
15:39 < nsf> oh..  wait it is type safe then
15:39 < aiju> heh Go is getting like C++, many libraries and features but
none of them "safe to use"
15:39 < skelterjohn> oh, my same complaint then, carry on
15:40 < Namegduf> container/vector is fine
15:40 < Namegduf> It just requires you to wrap it for type safety in some
way.
15:40 < skelterjohn> actually, that's not a bad idea
15:40 < skelterjohn> i never thought of that
15:40 < skelterjohn> you can just do type MyTVec Vector
15:40 < skelterjohn> and do the assertions in MyTVec's methods
15:40 < Namegduf> Yep.
15:41 < skelterjohn> without rewriting the algorithmic code
15:41 < skelterjohn> even though there is some boiler plating required
15:41 * Namegduf uses it with his own singly-linked-list implementation.
15:41 < nsf> container/vector is crap because it can be non-contiguous in
memory
15:41 < skelterjohn> ehhhh?
15:41 < Namegduf> Can it?
15:41 < nsf> yes
15:41 < Namegduf> How?
15:41 < skelterjohn> explain
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15:41 < skelterjohn> it's just an []interface{}
15:41 < nsf> because you can't have for example and array of structs (big
enough) using is
15:41 < skelterjohn> oh
15:41 < skelterjohn> right
15:41 < skelterjohn> the []interface is just a pointer
15:42 < nsf> they will be stored as pointers in interface{}
15:42 < skelterjohn> so it's an array of things pointing all over memory
15:42 < Namegduf> Oh, right, yes, but that's going to be a problem with any
generic data structure.
15:42 < nsf> using it*
15:42 < nsf> Namegduf: unless you have templates
15:42 < nsf> :D
15:42 < aiju> Go needs Templates / Macros!
15:42 < Namegduf> No, no it does not.
15:42 < skelterjohn> definitely no macros
15:42 < nsf> aiju: you can use macros right now!
15:42 < Namegduf> I like fast compilation and non-shit-looking code, myself
15:42 < aiju> go #define!
15:42 < nsf> just plug-in your favourite preprocessor
15:42 < skelterjohn> macros are about the worst thing ever
15:42 * nsf loves macros
15:43 < aiju> heh *noteonlist* "how to start a flamewar in a programming
channel"
15:43 < skelterjohn> you love the worst thing ever
15:43 < nsf> well, and I hate them too
15:43 < aiju> nsf: just like marriage!
15:43 < nsf> I've tried to write a parser for C once (for documentation
generator)
15:43 < nsf> and I did it
15:43 < nsf> but..
15:43 < nsf> it won't work with macros bloated code
15:44 < nsf> :D
15:44 < aiju> having to reimplement simple things like lists or dynamic
arrays all the time is perhaps the worst thing in C (IMHO)
15:44 < nsf> that's why I love macros
15:44 < Namegduf> Go has both, but they suffer from the same limitations as
void* implementations of those things in C.
15:44 < nsf> :D
15:44 < Namegduf> Roughly.
15:45 < skelterjohn> not as bad as that
15:45 < skelterjohn> but on the same level
15:45 < nsf> except that in C it's ok to be unsafe
15:45 < Namegduf> They're a bit better and a bit worse.
15:45 < nsf> in go it's a problem
15:45 < Namegduf> In C, you would use a wrapper for safety
15:45 < skelterjohn> the type assertions make it much more ok
15:45 < Namegduf> As you would in Go
15:46 < nsf> and there are other problems
15:46 < nsf> like Go having GC
15:46 < Namegduf> I don't see the problem.
15:46 < aiju> so i want a combination of C (conciseness and low-level-ty),
Go (concurrency, type system), FORTH (extensibility), Fortran (math notations),
APL (conciseness) and Haskell (type system)
15:46 < nsf> therefore you can't use raw memory as your array and cast void*
to your array struct
15:46 < nsf> GC will not know that these chunk of memory contains pointers
15:46 < nsf> this*
15:47 < Namegduf> At present, I don't think that's a problem
15:47 < Namegduf> It might be in future, though.
15:47 < Namegduf> Not sure, though.
15:47 < skelterjohn> i'm having trouble envisioning a use case for that, nsf
15:47 < nsf> skelterjohn: GArray
15:47 < skelterjohn> what would the difference be between that and
[]interface{}
15:47 < nsf> we're talking about containers
15:47 < skelterjohn> i don't know what GArray is
15:47 < nsf> it's a container from glib (C library)
15:48 < nsf> which has property of being contiguous in memory
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15:48 < nsf> for any data structure
15:48 < nsf> but of course not type safe
15:48 < skelterjohn> oh the void* is not to be a pointer
15:48 < skelterjohn> it's to be your actual struct
15:48 < nsf> void* is a pointer
15:48 < skelterjohn> i got it
15:48 < skelterjohn> ok
15:48 < nsf> but it's not a container of pointers
15:48 < nsf> I mean pointer to a data structure in the container
15:49 < skelterjohn> i misspoke just now, but i still got it
15:49 < skelterjohn> GArray sounds like a confusing data structure
15:49 < aiju> how to call a damn method?  foo.method()?
15:49 < nsf> yes
15:49 < nsf> skelterjohn: it's simple
15:50 < skelterjohn> aiju: I suggest reading the tutorial
15:50 < nsf> and useless
15:50 < nsf> except for the GTK people
15:50 < aiju> skelterjohn: i did
15:50 < nsf> and GNOME developers too
15:50 < skelterjohn> *((MyType*)(myGArray.Get(index))) = myInstance ?
15:51 < nsf> they have macros for that :D
15:51 < skelterjohn> haha
15:51 < skelterjohn> awesome
15:51 < nsf> like G_ARRAY_INDEX(myGArray, MyType*, index)
15:51 < aiju> GTK/GNOME people are kind of *ahem* special
15:51 < nsf> yes, they are crazy enough to actually write GTK software in C
15:52 < skelterjohn> do you also need the size of your struct, too?
15:52 < nsf> skelterjohn: nope
15:52 < skelterjohn> then how do they know how far in to index?
15:52 < skelterjohn> i'd think it would be beginning + index * size
15:52 < nsf> GArray contains the size of the struct
15:52 < skelterjohn> ah
15:53 < nsf> http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-Arrays.html
15:53 < nsf>
http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-Arrays.html#g-array-index <-
_THE_ macro
15:53 < aiju> parse.go:72: tl.PushValue undefined (type list.List has no
field PushValue)
15:53 < nsf> :D
15:53 < aiju> :/
15:53 < nsf> aiju: please stop doing that
15:53 < aiju> argh
15:53 < aiju> it's called PushBack
15:54 < skelterjohn> some questions answer themselves
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16:07 < aiju> how do you use interface{}?
16:07 < aiju> are there casts?
16:07 < Namegduf> There are type assertions
16:08 < aiju> ty
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16:22 < str1ngs> aiju: read the docs.  all this is there
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17:22 < homa_rano> how do I set the return value of a program in go?
17:22 < exch> os.Exit(n)
17:23 < exch> that takes a uint btw.  So no values < 0
17:23 < nsf> and should take uint8
17:23 < nsf> afaik
17:23 < exch> ya
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17:27 < homa_rano> exch: thanks
17:27 < homa_rano> I've always wondered about the range of that number...
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17:57 * nsf is reading The D Programming language
17:57 < nsf> D looks nice in a book
17:57 < nsf> :)
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18:02 < xash> Should a library for a protocol return for "uptime: 1123412,
status: 1, ..." a map[string]string or map[string]uint32?  ('cause the uptime can
be very high :-) )
18:03 < exch> uint64 perhaps?  If it's a string, the user has to do
conversions manually anyway.  Might as well do it for them
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18:07 < xash> Hrm, yeah ..  just realizied that uint64 isn't that
memorywasting compared to strings
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18:22 < nickaugust> how much memory do strings take up?
18:23 < Namegduf> Strings are blocks of bytes.
18:23 < nsf> the string itself as in a source code + uint32 for its length
18:23 < Namegduf> Characters are as UTF-8
18:23 < Namegduf> Plus the length, yeah.
18:23 < nsf> well, they are reference types
18:23 < nsf> so + pointer size
18:24 < nsf> struct String
18:24 < nsf> {
18:24 < nsf> byte*str;
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18:24 < nsf> int32len;
18:24 < nsf> };
18:24 < nsf> from runtime.h
18:25 < nsf> and my irc client removes tabs for some reason :(
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18:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eePqi by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/ -- partial correction for CL 1983043: fix various godoc-related regexp
calls
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18:52 < nsf> finished D book, not really interesting
18:53 < skelterjohn> lol
18:54 < nsf> I'm quick yes
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18:56 < nsf> well, it's all about the same, but with D specific features
18:56 < nsf> like basic generic 'find' functions
18:56 < nsf> stupid examples like TextWidget : Widget
18:56 < nsf> etc.
18:56 < nsf> it's good maybe as an introduction
18:57 < nsf> but has nothing to do with real software development experience
imho
18:57 < nsf> I'm a bit harsh on judging that, but that's what I do :D
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19:00 < jcao219> ...  yup
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19:08 < nsf> it reminds me "Programming -- Principles and Practice Using
C++" by Bjarne Stroustrup, but a bit better
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19:09 < jcao219> i think andrei is better than bjarne
19:09 < jcao219> in terms of
19:09 < nsf> Bjarne Stroustrup still uses Shape Circle Rectangle example!
19:09 < jcao219> book writing skills
19:09 < nsf> yes
19:09 < nsf> agreed
19:13 < gent00r> nsf, why D book not interesting
19:13 < jcao219> you read it yet?
19:14 < nsf> I've explained didn't I?
19:14 < jcao219> lol you did
19:14 < nsf> I took a glance look
19:14 < jcao219> ;D
19:14 < nsf> or wait you can't say that way
19:14 < nsf> simply
19:14 < nsf> I took a glance
19:14 < jcao219> yea
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19:16 < skelterjohn> i find most programming books uninteresting
19:16 < skelterjohn> i have never found one to offer me more than what i
find on the language's tutorial page
19:16 < nickaugust> skelterjohn: i just read coders at work..  that was
pretty intersting
19:16 < nsf> agreed
19:16 < nickaugust> maybe not what youre referring to though :)
19:16 < nsf> I really like only one book
19:16 < nsf> that relates to programming
19:16 < skelterjohn> i think the problem is the books all try to teach
programming
19:16 < skelterjohn> and i already know how to program
19:17 < nsf> and that is The Art of Unix Programming
19:17 < nsf> by Eric S. Raymond
19:17 < skelterjohn> I'm not familiar with Coders at Work
19:17 < nickaugust> ive been trying to make my way through Art of Computer
Programming but its tough
19:17 < nickaugust> skelterjohn: its interviews with famous programmers...
really interesting
19:17 < nsf> cause it explains a lot of things like Unix philosophy, and
gives you a bit of understanding what it means to be a programmer
19:17 < nsf> really nice
19:17 < skelterjohn> that sounds like a book i'd enjoy, nickaugust
19:17 < nickaugust> www.codersatwork.com
19:18 < nickaugust> talks about why they created the languages in the way
they did and how thier personal programming practices are
19:18 < nickaugust> i enjoyed it quite a lot...  and they also all recommend
other books that they actually liked and ive found a few goods ones like that too
19:19 < nsf> another book from language designers
19:19 < nsf> :D
19:19 < nickaugust> :)
19:19 < nsf> I read it iirc
19:22 < nsf> there is a wise thought, like: "If you want to be a programmer,
find a guy who is a good programmer (or you considering him as a good programmer),
and ask him to teach you"
19:23 < nsf> and I think it's really worth reading everything that other
actual good programmers are writing
19:24 < jcao219> lol
19:24 < jcao219> not many will be willing to teach you
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19:24 < jcao219> 1 on 1
19:24 < nsf> well it's just a thought
19:25 < nsf> it means something though
19:25 < skelterjohn> it's good to have parents who are programmers
19:25 < nsf> for example it means that reading a book written by a computer
scientist maybe isn't a good idea
19:25 < nsf> unless he/she actually writes software
19:25 < skelterjohn> depends what you're trying to learn about
19:26 < skelterjohn> if you're trying to learn how to write good software,
look to people who write software
19:26 < nsf> yes
19:26 < skelterjohn> if you're trying to learn the ins and outs of how a
programming language actually works
19:26 < skelterjohn> and why it makes sense
19:26 < nsf> look at people who write software
19:26 < skelterjohn> then a computer scientist is probably a good resource
19:26 < nsf> :D
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19:26 < nsf> cause practice is quite better all the time
19:27 < skelterjohn> all generalizations are false
19:27 < nsf> in theory
19:27 < nsf> lol
19:27 < skelterjohn> a self-contradiction is never true, in theory
19:27 < skelterjohn> in practice this one seems pretty accurate
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19:40 < KirkMcDonald> I learned the ins and outs of Go (and D!) fairly
easily because I was already familiar with the problems that the language was
trying to solve.
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19:49 < skelterjohn> The problem go deals with that I didn't even know I had
(though in retrospect it was a huge pain) is the silly class hierarchies i used to
spend time designing
19:50 < nsf> hehe, I've spent a lot of time thinking about that
19:50 < nsf> but more like on a programmer level, than language design level
19:50 < KirkMcDonald> Heh.  I learned that with Python.
19:51 < nsf> and yes, python has influenced that a bit
19:51 < nsf> and now I really like go's interfaces
19:52 < nsf> like someone said
19:52 < nsf> it's sad to see that the Go is the first popular language that
has that feature
19:52 < nsf> cause it's not new
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19:59 < skelterjohn> java has interfaces
20:00 < skelterjohn> and is fairly popular
20:00 < skelterjohn> as far as i can tell, java interfaces and go interfaces
are identical
20:00 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: Java's are inheritance-based.
20:00 <+iant> no; Go's interfaces use structural typing
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20:00 < KirkMcDonald> That is, they are explicit.
20:00 < skelterjohn> ouch, smacked down.  now to understand the smack-down
20:01 < skelterjohn> ah, got it
20:01 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: You have to explicitly declare which
interfaces a type implements, when you declare the type.
20:01 < skelterjohn> yes, both of you are right, of course
20:02 < homa_rano> the explicitness is really a minor annoyance
20:02 < homa_rano> to me anyway
20:02 < KirkMcDonald> The main advantage to Go's interfaces is that you can
define other interfaces which a type implements after the fact.
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20:04 < skelterjohn> and two interfaces can be used interchangeably if they
define the same methods
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20:06 < jA_cOp> Go interfaces really are a game changer
20:06 < jA_cOp> not just syntactic sugar or whatever :V
20:07 < skelterjohn> right
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21:04 < skelterjohn> it's very difficult to grade run-on-sentence undergrad
proofs of certain problems being in NP
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21:08 < skelterjohn> for instance, the problem "find a k-coloring of this
graph"
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21:09 < skelterjohn> "This problem is NP because for the chromatic number
for a tree can be determined by using the combination of different colors where no
similar colors can be adjacent to each other while using the minimum amounts [sic]
of different types of colors.  Depending on what is the chromatic number of the
problem at hand we can determine if it's yes or no.  if it's yes then the problem
is NP"
21:09 * skelterjohn faints
21:10 < ampleyfly> wow that's bad
21:11 < skelterjohn> i wish people who had no idea what the answer was would
just leave it blank
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21:13 < ampleyfly> I would love to understand the thought process that put
those "sentences" together
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21:13 < skelterjohn> i think too many people got away with restating the
problem in highschool
21:13 < skelterjohn> and they think that will work now
21:13 < skelterjohn> add to that the fact that the student clearly didn't
understand the problem in the first place
21:14 < skelterjohn> and you get some really strange answers
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21:17 < ampleyfly> skelterjohn: are you holding a course yourself?
21:17 < skelterjohn> teaching assistant
21:17 < skelterjohn> so i get to grade everything
21:18 < ampleyfly> right
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21:20 < ampleyfly> I was just repeating some theory of computation today =)
21:20 < skelterjohn> actually not something i know a lot about
21:20 < skelterjohn> this is a 2nd year course on discrete math
21:21 < skelterjohn> and one lecture spent some time on this material
21:22 < ampleyfly> oh ok
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22:13 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ef3zg by [Russ Cox] in go/lib/codereview/ --
codereview: do not send "Abanoned" mail if this CL has
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22:53 < jesusaurus> is *[512]float32 a pointer to an array of float32s ? or
do i have my syntax wrong?
22:54 < exch> it is
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 13 00:00:05 2010