--- Log opened Thu Aug 19 00:00:05 2010
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00:05 < plexdev> http://is.gd/enWcJ by [Christopher Wedgwood] in go/doc/ --
doc: add missing paren (pointed out by nbjoerg)
00:07 < nbjoerg> "rounded up by" might have been a better term :)
00:14 < nbjoerg> "ArbitraryType is here for the purposes of documentation
only and is not actually part of the unsafe package."
00:14 < nbjoerg> that's a brilliant sentence...
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01:58 < nickaugust> any idea why "return isPrefix(h.left, prefix, c)" is
throwing error "llrb.go:417: isPrefix(h.left, prefix, c) used as value" where c is
a chan??  http://sprunge.us/aRIf
01:58 < KirkMcDonald> nickaugust: isPrefix has no return value.
01:58 < KirkMcDonald> Rather, no return type.
01:59 < nickaugust> hm, the function i modified had no return type and it
worked
01:59 < nickaugust> let me look closer
02:00 < nickaugust> oh wait yes it does.  obviously.  :)
02:00 < nickaugust> thanks KirkMcDonald
02:05 < nickaugust> ok i modified one of the libraries in my
src/pkg/github.com/ directory now i do make && make install but the added method
still isnt availble in my project is there somethign else i have to do?
02:08 < nickaugust> i guess i could just copy it to my project directory and
import it locally
02:08 < nickaugust> maybe thats what i should have done to begin with
02:08 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eo47H by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ -- fmt:
add sentence about return values to docs for Printf etc.
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02:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eo5Vo by [Eric Clark] in 2 subdirs of go/src/
-- cgo: add C.GoStringN
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02:50 < jessta> oh no, writing Go and destroying my ability to read other
code
02:51 < jessta> I keep making assumptions about the visibilty of methods by
the case of the first letter
02:51 < jessta> and semicolons have become an extreme annoyance
02:55 < cbeck> Were they ever not?
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03:16 < jessta> cbeck: of course they were, but now I notice it much more
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04:04 < Namegduf> Hmm.  goconf does not goinstall with current Go.
Disappointing.
04:13 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eob1w by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- A+C: Eric Clark
(individual CLA)
04:13 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eob1D by [Christopher Wedgwood] in go/src/ --
clean.bash: fix standalone runs
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05:05 < cbeck> Namegduf: There's already a ticket, I think it's changes to
regex
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06:58 < greb> hello
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07:14 < greb> Is it possible to use vector.IntVector with container/heap?
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07:30 < cbeck> greb: as in a heap of intvectors?
07:30 < cbeck> Certainly, make a struct that wraps an anonymous intvector,
and write methods such that it fulfills heap.Interface
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07:48 < greb> cbeck: yes, I tried that.  I assumed that IntVector already
implements all methods required by heap.Interface.  But it seems there is
something wrong with Len()
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14:41 < nbjoerg> http://www.netbsd.org/~joerg/syscall_netbsd_amd64.go <--
comments on how to clean this up?
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14:46 < MizardX> The "for j < len(name)"-loop could be rewritten to a
"for ;;"-loop.
14:47 < MizardX> Same with the "for k < sz && ..."-loop
14:47 < nbjoerg> the biggest thing hit me was avoiding the copying and just
convert the input to byte and process it that way
14:47 < nbjoerg> utf8 makes the separator invariant to that
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14:48 < nbjoerg> MizardX: not sure what is more readable
14:48 < exch> I've found it can save a considerable amount of time if you
don't (re)declare new variables inside a loop.  Anything with := should be
predeclared outside the loop and then just use = inside it
14:49 < nbjoerg> the compiler doesn't allocate the space statically?
14:49 < exch> One would think it will at some point, but the speed tests
don't lie
14:49 < nbjoerg> ok
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14:56 < MizardX> Python's loop-else would have worked here :)
14:59 < MizardX> nbjoerg: Here are some changes I would have made:
http://ideone.com/xrLZ9
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15:11 < nbjoerg> updated version
15:11 < nbjoerg> let me move k out as well
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15:13 < exch> in nametomib() you predeclared qb, but there's still qb := in
the loop
15:13 < exch> *qp
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15:15 < nbjoerg> did you reload?
15:15 < exch> ya
15:16 < yiyus> having a (very) quick look...  why don't you reslice instead
of using indexes?
15:16 < nbjoerg> yiyus: updated version is slicing for passing down
15:16 < nbjoerg> exch: there is no qb or qp anymore
15:17 < exch> hmm
15:17 < exch> keep seeing the old post then
15:17 < yiyus> i still see for i, start = 0, 0; start < len(name); start,
i = next, i+1 {
15:18 < nbjoerg> yiyus: you mean instead of using start and counting that
up, reslice name?
15:18 < yiyus> yes
15:18 < nbjoerg> is that really making things easier to follow?
15:18 < yiyus> name=name[next:]
15:18 < yiyus> surely it is more idiomatic
15:19 < yiyus> then you only have to test for len>0, and you don't need
start, because it is always 0
15:19 < nbjoerg> sec
15:21 < nbjoerg> done
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15:22 < nbjoerg> name[0:next] => name[:next] I guess
15:23 < nbjoerg> hm.  no, that's not valid
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15:26 < yiyus> also, i think you can do: for component[0] == '.' { component
= component [1:] }, instead of your second loop with the break
15:26 < yiyus> but i'm not sure, i have not had time to completely
understand what the code is doing
15:27 < yiyus> gotta go anyway, have fun :)
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15:27 < nbjoerg> it's splitting up something like kern.hostname
15:28 < nbjoerg> and doing further processing for each component
15:29 < nbjoerg> any other comments?  this is my first non-trivial piece of
go :)
15:30 -!- g0bl1n [~anonymous@a213-22-18-58.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: g0bl1n]
15:35 < dho> nbjoerg: where is it?
15:35 < dho> ah
15:35 < dho> use rietveld :P
15:36 < dho> nbjoerg: wait, you're walking the whole mib tree?
15:36 < nbjoerg> dho: can't avoid it
15:36 < dho> really?
15:36 < nbjoerg> interface difference
15:37 < dho> lame.
15:37 < nbjoerg> I would *cache* the result
15:37 < exch> /away
15:37 < dho> go fix you guys' sysctl implementation
15:37 < exch> eep
15:37 < dho> ;)
15:37 < dho> other than that var children [2048]SysCtlNode seems goofy
15:37 < nbjoerg> it's not written for hit-and-go usage
15:37 < nbjoerg> I'm too lazy to do proper sizing
15:38 < nbjoerg> as long as the only user is kern.hostname
15:38 < exch> :p
15:38 < dho> use containers/vector
15:38 < nbjoerg> why?
15:38 < nbjoerg> that doesn't give me anything
15:38 < nbjoerg> I need a buffer for the sysctl
15:40 * dho reads netbsd's sysctl(2)
15:42 < dho> wait, sysctl(3) in netbsd 4.0.1 specifies a sysctlnametomib,
15:42 < dho> is that essentially what it does, or does it wrap a syscall?
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15:44 < nbjoerg> this is essentially what is sysctlnametomib is doing
15:44 < nbjoerg> modulo caching and invalidation
15:44 < dho> sigh
15:44 < dho> ok
15:45 < dho> does netbsd do kernel loadable modules?
15:45 < nbjoerg> yes
15:46 < nbjoerg> and no, I don't want to require a module to get a mib
lookup function
15:46 * dho writes one to crash all joergs go on netbsd
15:47 < dho> iz keeding.
15:47 < dho> anyway, if that's how it has to be done, so be it
15:48 < nbjoerg> it could be optimised, but I don't care enough for now
15:48 < dho> sure
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15:48 < nbjoerg> with that, all but cgo seems to work
15:48 < dho> working first
15:48 < dho> what're you using for threads in runtime?
15:48 * dho forgets what netbsd has
15:48 < nbjoerg> direct lwp interace
15:48 < dho> that's right
15:49 * dho looked at porting to netbsd some time ago when giles was looking at it
15:49 < nbjoerg> it was a bit more work as netbsd doesn't provide the linux
futex crapface normally
15:49 < dho> right
15:49 < dho> how'd you handle that
15:50 < nbjoerg> http://www.netbsd.org/~joerg/thread.c
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15:52 < dho> nice.
15:52 < dho> what's breaking with cgo
15:54 < dho> you probably just need libcgo/netbsd_arch.c
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15:58 < nbjoerg> doesn't link correctly
15:59 < nbjoerg> in misc/stdio
15:59 < nbjoerg> given that I doubt it will work well at all with the normal
runtime, I have no big inclination to look at it
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16:01 < nbjoerg> of course, the runtime in the form it is does require
cmpxchg8, so Pentium+ only for i386 if I care enough to add support for that
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16:22 < wrtp> nbjoerg: for i := 0; i < len(b); i++ is usually phrased as
for i := range b
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16:24 < wrtp> and in your case, you want the value at b[i], for i, c :=
range b would be good (and more efficient, as it avoids the double range check
16:24 < wrtp> )
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16:25 < nbjoerg> applied
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16:25 < wrtp> same applies to other loops further down the code
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16:26 < wrtp> you could save some copying by passing *[32]byte rather than
[32]byte
16:27 < nbjoerg> applied too
16:28 < wrtp> compare would be better named "equal" to reflect its returned
bool value
16:30 < wrtp> no need to declare i, j and k at the top of the function -
just use :=
16:30 < nbjoerg> I was told to not do that earlier ;)
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16:31 < wrtp> really?
16:31 < wrtp> well i suppose you use i outside the loop, so that has to
stay.  except just saying i:=0 just before the loop would be more idiomatic
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16:32 < wrtp> i yeah, same with j and k
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16:33 < nbjoerg> damn, I want for {} else {}
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16:33 < wrtp> when would the else run?
16:34 < nbjoerg> if the loop finished
16:34 < nbjoerg> e.g.  no break
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16:34 < wrtp> you don't use the siz const
16:35 < nbjoerg> I killed that in the mean time
16:35 < nbjoerg> let me finish the range restructuring for a moment
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16:36 < nbjoerg> does 0 < foo <= n work?
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16:37 < wrtp> nope
16:37 < wrtp> comparisons are similar to C
16:37 < wrtp> have you compiled this code?
16:38 < nbjoerg> it worked
16:38 < nbjoerg> well, there are some unrelated imports before
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16:40 < wrtp> i got a syntax error on the qp := ...  statement.  there was a
missing comma.
16:40 < wrtp> also i'm surprised you didn't get a variable unused error.
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16:41 < nbjoerg> http://www.netbsd.org/~joerg/syscall_netbsd_amd64.go-fixed
16:42 < nbjoerg> I guess I can now limit the range of next and c without
penalty?
16:45 < nbjoerg> what is responsible from making the else of an if
unambigous, the implicit ; at line end?
16:45 <+iant> the else of an if is unambiguous because there are always
braces around the if block
16:46 < wrtp> your compare loop can be simpler and more efficient.
http://ideone.com/wRXzw
16:46 < wrtp> (untested...)
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16:46 < nbjoerg> doesn't work as the len of b is fixed at 32
16:46 < wrtp> that doesn't matter
16:47 < nbjoerg> b is effectively a 0 terminated string
16:47 < wrtp> range over a
16:47 < wrtp> and check that len(a) < 32 first
16:47 < wrtp> then you don't need two range checks each time through the
loop
16:47 < wrtp> if len(a) >= 32 then it can't match
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16:48 < wrtp> obviously my a[i] should be c in the loop
16:48 < nbjoerg> len(a) >= 32 is already checked
16:48 < nbjoerg> right, I can invert the loop and drop one check that way
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16:48 < wrtp> did you see my paste?
16:49 < nbjoerg> yes
16:49 < wrtp> it should work...  i think
16:49 -!- navigator [~navigator@p5489719C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts
16:49 < wrtp> apart from the broken loop header, oopps
16:50 < wrtp> http://ideone.com/EnDEV
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joined #go-nuts
16:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eoWxK by [Robert Griesemer] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/ -- go/ast, gofmt: facility for printing AST nodes
16:51 < nbjoerg> yeah
16:52 < nbjoerg> the if is not needed as 32==SYSCTL_NAMELEN :)
16:52 < nbjoerg> i'll make the check outside >=, it is guaranteed to be
0-terminated
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seconds]
16:53 < nbjoerg> is there a simple idiom to get an empty slice?
16:53 < nbjoerg> short of name=name[0:0]?
16:53 <+iant> []T{}
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16:55 < nbjoerg> thanks
16:55 < nbjoerg> so, what for {} else {} or something like that discussed
already?
16:56 <+iant> what would it mean?
16:56 < nbjoerg> (else might not be the best keyword)
16:56 < nbjoerg> execute the second block if the loop finished
16:57 <+iant> if the loop finished?
16:57 < MizardX> without 'break'
16:57 <+iant> ah
16:58 <+iant> sounds a bit special purpose
16:58 < nbjoerg> I think breaking out of loops is a common use case when
parsing stuff etc
16:58 <+iant> use a goto
16:59 < nbjoerg> and I also think you often want to distinguish normal exit
from break, e.g.  because you want to reload the buffer etc
16:59 < yiyus> or test the condition: for cond { }; if !cond { }
16:59 < nbjoerg> yiyus: doesn't work well with ranges
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17:00 < yiyus> you can test that i == len(slice), or that a channel was
closed
17:01 < MizardX> for x := range foo { if cond(x) { goto after } } return
false; after: ...
17:01 < yiyus> len(slice) - 1, actually
17:01 < nbjoerg> yiyus: that fails if you break in the last iteration
17:02 < nbjoerg> MizardX: I know that it is possible, but break is already
an implicit goto
17:02 < nbjoerg> MizardX: so having to do that feels wrong
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seconds]
17:02 < yiyus> that is a really special case, imo
17:02 < Namegduf> I think the approach commonly used in Go
17:02 < wrtp> nbjoerg: if you replied to my last question, i missed it.  was
disconnected for some reason.
17:02 < Namegduf> Is to make it "safe" to use early breaks, continues, and
returns
17:02 < Namegduf> Through use of defers and such.
17:02 < nbjoerg> wrtp: I've adjusted the loop
17:02 < Namegduf> Rather than not use them at all.
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17:04 < wrtp> nbjoerg: rather than your inner for loop looking for '.', i'd
be tempted to use strings.IndexRune.  e.g.  http://ideone.com/R9KGu
17:04 < nbjoerg> wrtp: this is part of runtime
17:05 < nbjoerg> wrtp: so almost no dependencies on other packages
17:05 < wrtp> ok
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17:05 < wrtp> maybe in a separate function then
17:06 < nbjoerg> otherwise I would have just Split the string into the
components
17:07 < wrtp> alternatively: http://ideone.com/p9bz7 but it's a bit unwieldy
17:08 < nbjoerg> that doesn't look cleaner
17:09 < wrtp> yeah, it's two more lines
17:09 < nbjoerg> reload the url
17:09 < wrtp> but faster :-)
17:12 < wrtp> where do you check that len(name) < 32 ?
17:13 < nbjoerg> sysctl_namelen
17:14 < wrtp> i still reckon it's worth putting the check into equal,
because the invariant is checked quite a distance away.
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17:21 < nbjoerg> I think most potential use case of "for {} else {}" in
src/pkg side step the issue by being a small function and using return directly
17:22 < wrtp> i don't really see that it would be that useful.
17:22 < wrtp> you can always simulate it with a bool
17:22 < nbjoerg> but I guess I can use a label and break L
17:23 < wrtp> and what about multiple level break?
17:23 < wrtp> yeah
17:23 < skelterjohn> for {} else {} ??
17:24 < skelterjohn> it's not clear to me what the semantics would be
17:24 < wrtp> nbjoerg: i'd move most of the declarations at the top of the
function closer to their use
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17:24 < wrtp> e.g.  i think you've got a bug because component isn't set
each time through the loop
17:25 < wrtp> and there's no need for k and sz to be declared outside the
loop
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17:26 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: as alternative to using break label all the
time
17:27 < skelterjohn> it's clear when a break is triggered...it is in a
certain place within the for loop
17:27 < skelterjohn> it's not clear to me when an else would be triggered
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17:27 < skelterjohn> could you show me an equivalence example?
17:28 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: the syntax is borrowed by Python
17:28 < wrtp> nbjoerg: what happens if you do: L: for { for {break L} else
{print("else")}}
17:28 < wrtp> ?
17:28 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: for { break foo } bar() foo:
17:29 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: for { break } else { bar() }
17:29 < wrtp> i.e.  would it run the else for each level broken out of
17:29 < wrtp> ?
17:29 < skelterjohn> oh i see - the else needs a break
17:29 < skelterjohn> and when the break is hit, it would go to the else
17:29 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: no, the other way around
17:29 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: the else is execute if there was *no* break
17:29 < skelterjohn> whaaat
17:29 < skelterjohn> this is a bizarre construct
17:30 < nbjoerg> finally may be a better term
17:30 < exch> You can't break to a label that hasn't been declared yet
17:30 < nbjoerg> not really
17:30 < skelterjohn> finally clauses are supposed to always happen
17:30 < skelterjohn> if we're borrowing finally from java
17:30 < nbjoerg> bah
17:30 < nbjoerg> exch: that's stupid
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17:30 < exch> but true.  Just tried it
17:31 < nbjoerg> yeah, saw that
17:31 < nbjoerg> grmbl
17:31 < wrtp> if the else is executed when there's no break, then it's
pointless.  because when there's no break then you know the final state of the
loop variables.
17:31 < skelterjohn> you can "goto" one, though
17:31 < exch> yea, goto works fine
17:31 < exch> queue the wrath of anti-goto purists :p
17:32 < wrtp> and AFAICS, the only point of the else is so that you know the
state of the loop when it's broken out of.  but i've probably misunderstood
17:32 < nbjoerg> wrtp: (a) loop variables can be local to the loop
17:32 < nbjoerg> wrtp: (b) range doesn't play too well with that
17:32 < wrtp> a) only if you declare them locally to the loop
17:32 < wrtp> b) as a
17:32 < nbjoerg> no
17:33 < nbjoerg> for (b) you can't distinguish between the loop finished and
break in the last iteration
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17:33 < wrtp> yeah, true
17:33 < wrtp> for that you need a bool
17:33 < nbjoerg> and being able to do (a) is desirable from a clarity PoV
17:33 < skelterjohn> how about: for { some stuff; if IWantToStep { goto foo:
} } someElseCode; foo:
17:33 < skelterjohn> ?
17:33 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: yes, that's exactly the kind of idiom
17:34 < skelterjohn> ok
17:34 < skelterjohn> seems pretty straightforward to me
17:34 < skelterjohn> why do you want to introduce a new language construct?
17:35 * Namegduf just uses a bool
17:35 < exch> What would be the expected behaviour here?  I have a script
interpreter..  I pipe some script filenames to it using '$ find ...  | app'.
Should each file be processed and executed as it comes in, or should the
interpreter wait until all filenames are in before starting the processing?
17:35 < Namegduf> While suboptimal, it seems clearer than either goto or the
theoretical construct
17:35 < wrtp> wantstep := false; for { some stuff; if iWantToStep { wantstep
= true; break }} if !wantStep { someElseCode}
17:35 < skelterjohn> adding syntax to Go is something that should be done
sparingly and with great reluctance
17:35 < homa_rano> goto seems the clearest to me
17:35 < homa_rano> and I never use goto
17:35 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: I agree - using a boolean is very clear
17:36 < exch> Go is the first place i've started using goto regularly with
great success :)
17:36 < exch> mostly just to get out of nested loops/switch blocks
17:36 < skelterjohn> i have yet to use it
17:36 < nbjoerg> goto is a lot more generic
17:36 < skelterjohn> i think i used a labeled break once
17:36 < nbjoerg> which is *not* a good thing
17:36 < skelterjohn> prove it
17:36 < Namegduf> A labeled break seems the "right way" to do that.
17:36 < nbjoerg> Namegduf: doesn't work
17:37 < Namegduf> I mean, for exch's use case.
17:37 < skelterjohn> nbjoerg: to do exch's thin
17:37 < skelterjohn> g
17:37 < wrtp> if you're just breaking out of a nested loop, then break label
is the way to do it
17:37 < Namegduf> Not this.
17:37 < exch> except that the lbel has to be defined before the break.
which kinda braks the whole point of it
17:37 < exch> *breaks
17:37 < skelterjohn> exch: it just tells you which for you're breaking from
17:37 < homa_rano> but in general, a labeled break is syntactic sugar for a
labeled goto, right?
17:37 < skelterjohn> if will stop execution of the for immediately following
the label you break to
17:37 < skelterjohn> it's not the same as goto
17:37 < Namegduf> homa_rano: It's multilevel break.
17:38 < Namegduf> homa_rano: So "if break is syntactic sugar for a labeled
goto, then yes"
17:38 < wrtp> nbjoerg: either your sysctl function is strangely designed or
you've got a bug...  is the 3rd argument expressed in bytes or elements?
17:38 < Namegduf> exch: How does it break the point of it?
17:38 < nbjoerg> wrtp: bytes
17:38 < Namegduf> While the label is placed at the start of the loop in
question
17:38 < homa_rano> Namegduf: but multilevel break requires a label, and
therefore is no clearer than goto
17:38 < Namegduf> You move to the end of it.
17:39 < Namegduf> homa_rano: I dispute the validity of that logic.
17:39 < wrtp> nbjoerg: but you're using it to count the number of components
after the call
17:39 < Namegduf> Goto is unclear because the code flow it creates is
arbitrary.
17:39 < Namegduf> Not because it has a "label"
17:39 < nbjoerg> wrtp: ah, let me check the after case.  that might indeed
be a bug
17:40 < nbjoerg> Namegduf: agreed
17:40 < skelterjohn> goto and break are definitely different.  see this
example: http://pastebin.com/UerQ2XvH
17:40 < skelterjohn> if you replace "break" with "goto", something different
happens
17:40 < wrtp> nbjoerg: i think you need to divide by SizeofSyscallNode
17:40 < skelterjohn> break quits the for loop following the label it breaks
to, while goto just pretends that the label precedes the next statement to be
executed
17:41 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: break will continue the outer loop, goto not?
17:41 < skelterjohn> other way around
17:41 < wrtp> skelterjohn: break is still syntactic sugar for goto - it's
just that the label is placed differently
17:41 < skelterjohn> i buy that
17:41 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: break label -> break all loops including
the label'ed one?
17:41 < exch> label is infront of loop instead of after it :p
17:41 < skelterjohn> yes
17:41 < nbjoerg> ok
17:41 < homa_rano> ah, that makes more sense
17:42 < homa_rano> this might explain why my labeled breaks weren't working
17:42 < Namegduf> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Break_statements
17:42 < wrtp> there's no easy way to use goto to simulate "continue label"
17:42 < nbjoerg> wrtp: right
17:43 < skelterjohn> with the label before the "for", wouldn't "goto label"
be like continuing to that label?
17:44 < skelterjohn> ah, no.
17:44 < homa_rano> I retract my previous statement about goto == multibreak;
but I still say goto > for {} else {}
17:44 < skelterjohn> no wait, i think it would be
17:45 < nbjoerg> homa_rano: goto is a lot harder for both humans and
compilers to understand
17:45 < homa_rano> nbjoerg, for-else is really hard for humans to understand
in my opinion
17:45 < skelterjohn> i think compilers are pretty good at it...
17:45 < nbjoerg> the "else" is somewhat badly named, I agree on that
17:46 < homa_rano> there's a 50% chance that the else will be misunderstood
17:46 < homa_rano> meaning it has no useful information
17:46 < homa_rano> (name-wise)
17:46 < nbjoerg> I've been using it because it has been established in
another question
17:46 < nbjoerg> s/question/language/
17:46 < skelterjohn> maybe for {} onCompletion {}
17:46 < nbjoerg> that would be clearer but not single word :)
17:46 < skelterjohn> for {} oncompletion {}
17:46 < homa_rano> perhaps for {} done {} ?
17:47 < nbjoerg> so let me summarize my reasons for "for {} done {}" if we
keep that for now
17:47 < skelterjohn> for {} denouement {}
17:47 <+iant> lab: for {} { for { ...  break lab; ...  } ...  }
17:48 < nbjoerg> (a) it is precise code flow, which goto doesn't do
17:48 < nbjoerg> (b) it doesn't require variables to leak out of the for
scope
17:49 < exch> I dont expect goto to do that either
17:49 < nbjoerg> (c) it has a natural scope if you need to define variables
and which goto without further work might stumple across
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17:49 < skelterjohn> if true { label: ...  }
17:49 < skelterjohn> though that does look silly
17:49 < nbjoerg> (d) it works well with range in that it allows
distinguishing the case of break in last iteration
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17:52 < MizardX> for x := range foo { ...  } fallthrough { ...  } <--
doesn't introduce any new keywords
17:52 < MizardX> A bit long though...
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17:55 < exch> tbh, this reeks of try/catch/finally blocks.  I'm already glad
we dont have those
17:56 < skelterjohn> we've seen what happens to language that get to
syntax-happy
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18:07 < smw> I like try and catch :-\
18:08 < smw> It is easier than if err != nil {...}
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18:15 < nbjoerg> the problem with try {} catch {} is not the syntax
18:15 < nbjoerg> the problem with try {} catch {} is if you forgot to use it
18:16 < exch> the explicit error checks you have in Go now force you to be
thorough about your error handling.  Even substituting the error return value for
_ is something I don't really like
18:16 < exch> although in some cases, that may be a valid way of doing
things
18:17 < nbjoerg> there is a thing like non-fatal errors :)
18:18 < exch> yea, but that doesn't really justify just ignoring them.  They
are usually generated for a good reason :)
18:20 < smw> ooh, like the error EOF :-P
18:20 < exch> yea ok, except that one :p
18:21 < skelterjohn> you want to ignore EOF?
18:22 < nbjoerg> exch: you mean like deppner forcing everyone to check
fread/fwrite on each call because he never heard of ferror?
18:22 < exch> Not in all situations, but reading from a file also returns an
integer value telling you if there where bytes left to read
18:22 < Namegduf> _ makes the ignore explicit
18:22 < exch> In that case, the err value should be reserved for serious
stuff
18:22 < exch> yes, but _ makes you ignore important errors which may occur
18:23 < nbjoerg> "error value" is so judgemental
18:23 < Namegduf> You prefer "suboptimal condition notifier"?
18:23 < nbjoerg> Namegduf: it implies that the condition is not what you
expected it to be :)
18:24 < exch> 'os.MildlyDisconcertingStateNotification'
18:24 < exch> ^ that would suit object C
18:24 < Namegduf> os.Wha
18:24 < exch> *objective C
18:24 < Namegduf> "// Wha" is my favourite comment so far.
18:24 < exch> very informative :)
18:26 < skelterjohn> it's the difference between errors and exceptions
18:26 < skelterjohn> errors are things that went wrong.  exceptions are
things that don't happen most of the time
18:27 < Namegduf> And panics (outside of a package) indicate that you used
it wrong and we're all going to die.
18:29 < exch> panic + defer/recover makes for somewhat useful poor-man's
exceptions, incase you /really/ think you need them
18:30 < Namegduf> Within a package, they can be used like that, yes.
18:30 < Namegduf> If it leaks them, I for one will not be using your code.
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18:34 < nbjoerg> one positive thing about exceptions is that if implemented
and used correctly, they don't add runtime overhead for the !exceptional case
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18:51 < nbjoerg> shouldn't I get an error if I := a variable that already
exists in the outer scope?
18:52 < Namegduf> No.
18:52 < nbjoerg> why not?
18:52 < skelterjohn> if you can declare it with a var, then := shouldn't
give you problems
18:53 < Namegduf> Because you're allowed to shadow stuff in outside scopes
in inner scopes.
18:53 < nbjoerg> shadowing is asking for trouble
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18:54 < cw> nbjoerg: i warning might be nice
18:54 < skelterjohn> it's pretty useful
18:54 < cw> it's a new scope for now ...  i've found bugs from it though
18:54 < cw> nbjoerg: it's actually more commonly a problem when functions
have named returns
18:54 < cw> and you redeclare them
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18:54 < skelterjohn> and one of the go design philosophies is "if it's worth
warning about, it's worth fixing"
18:54 < nbjoerg> cw: yeah, that's another area I can think of
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18:54 < cw> think func fooThis() (something int, err os.Error) { err := ...
}
18:54 < cw> fixed a couple of those
18:55 < nbjoerg> many of the shadowing problems in C are not relevant for Go
18:55 < nbjoerg> e.g.  index would be explicitly referencing "string"
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18:58 < skelterjohn> I don't understand the comment about index and string
18:58 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: shadowing warnings in C can be annoying
18:58 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: because there was a function index()
introduced by BSD
18:59 < nbjoerg> so whenever you wanted to name your local variable index,
you would get a warning
18:59 < skelterjohn> gotcha
18:59 < nbjoerg> slightly more generic
18:59 < nbjoerg> changes in other modules could introduce warnings
18:59 < nbjoerg> that is not relevant for Go
19:00 < skelterjohn> well
19:00 < skelterjohn> if you have a habit of importing packages as _ it could
have the same issue
19:00 < skelterjohn> but since there are no warnings in go, the "annoying
warnings" issue is at least not the same :)
19:00 < nbjoerg> you still only get the exportet symbols, don't you?
19:01 < nbjoerg> so unless you are in the habit of naming your loop
variables Index, it wouldn't matter
19:01 < skelterjohn> I don't name anything index, usually
19:01 < nbjoerg> so practically speaking, shadowing could be an error and I
can't think of a good reason why it shouldn't be so
19:02 < nbjoerg> well, provide a function I() then :)
19:02 < skelterjohn> because it's annoying to have to change all occurrences
of a variable when you copy/paste some code in
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19:05 < nbjoerg> c&p is actually an argument for making it an error -- fewer
changes of unintentional side effects
19:06 < skelterjohn> it wouldn't affect the outer variable at all...
19:06 < nbjoerg> only if the original code didn't already have such a case
of shadowing
19:07 < skelterjohn> ?
19:07 < nbjoerg> if the code you have copied is "self contained" with regard
to scope changes
19:08 < skelterjohn> if it isn't, then the shadow variable declaration would
cause a compile error
19:08 < nbjoerg> heh
19:08 < nbjoerg> A language
19:08 < nbjoerg> with goto has no business telling programmers they can't
19:08 < nbjoerg> name a variable int.
19:09 < nbjoerg> skelterjohn: you move something like "for i := range b {
...} i = 1" around
19:09 < skelterjohn> you can name a variable int in Go
19:09 < nbjoerg> I know
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19:10 < skelterjohn> well, the outer i can never refer to the for's i
anyway...
19:11 < skelterjohn> no language syntax is fool proof...  they're always
making better and more robust fools
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19:12 < nbjoerg> point remains that := vs = makes for very nice and hard to
find typos
19:13 < exch> that's partly why I almost always predeclare any required var
at the start of a function and use = everywhere else
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19:13 < skelterjohn> i just don't accidentally type ":=" when i mean "="
19:14 < exch> yea, if only our rbains where always that alert :p
19:14 < nbjoerg> sorry, that's a "I never make typos" argument
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19:15 < skelterjohn> there are lots of typos that cause bugs.  you have to
weigh pros and cons
19:15 < kalkin-> hi
19:15 < kalkin-> i'm new to go
19:15 < kalkin-> and i'm curios where are documented such functions like
len()
19:16 < kalkin-> ?
19:16 < skelterjohn> if there are both pros and cons, then it's just whether
or not people find the cons or pros more convincing
19:16 < nbjoerg> kalkin-:
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Length_and_capacity
19:16 < nickaugust> shift ; = is probably not a common typo when you meant
to hit =
19:16 < kalkin-> ahh Builtin funcions
19:16 < kalkin-> missed it some how :)
19:17 < skelterjohn> i'm used to be able to shadow variables in inner
scopes, so i like it that i can do it in go, too
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19:21 < nbjoerg> hm.  and it is inconsistent that go complains about unused
variables but not about unused labels
19:21 < skelterjohn> file a bug
19:21 < skelterjohn> no one's perfect
19:21 < nbjoerg> is it a bug?
19:21 < skelterjohn> seems reasonable to me that you shouldn't be able to
scatter them around without using them
19:21 < skelterjohn> file an issue, rather
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19:26 < skelterjohn> well, regarding the issue that you posted, i guarantee
that a warning will not be issued
19:26 < skelterjohn> it will either compile or not
19:27 < nbjoerg> fine with me
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19:29 < nbjoerg> hm.  shouldn't "6g -w" for file that defines a function
print something ?!
19:29 < nbjoerg> e.g.  the example in the issue
19:30 < prudhvi> nbjoerg: golang now works on nbsd too?
19:31 < nbjoerg> I have a working version
19:31 < nbjoerg> modulo cgo
19:32 < prudhvi> i sure want to try it.  can you explain me how.
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19:32 < nbjoerg> no, you have to wait
19:33 < nbjoerg> it depends on some kernel changes that are blocking from
another project
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19:35 < dho> nbjoerg: what was wrong with cgo
19:35 < nbjoerg> dho: it doesn't link the output correctly
19:36 < nbjoerg> dho: and frankly, I don't think cgo has any major change of
working with the way the runtime is written
19:36 < dho> it already works :P
19:37 < nbjoerg> I dare to say more by accident than intentionally
19:37 < dho> cgo is somewhat important, there are a lot of c wrappers out
there already
19:37 < dho> for databases and sdl and opengl and openal etc etc
19:38 < dho> what doesn't link correctly?
19:38 < nbjoerg> pkg/runtime is not written in a way that coexisting with
libc & co works without a number of restrictions on the library side
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19:39 < kalkin-> i think i lost my connection for a little bit
19:40 < kalkin-> do i miss something?  (about posix regex and \w)
19:40 < dho> nope
19:40 < dho> I was pretty sure that those issues were fixed on i386 and
amd64, at least the stuff with m and g being stored in registers
19:40 < dho> they're in TLS now
19:40 < dho> what else is wrong?
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19:41 < nbjoerg> anyway, I am not sure if I want to bother with it for now
to sort it out
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19:44 < raylu> is there an irc library for go?
19:44 < raylu> oh hey, http://github.com/thoj/Go-IRC-Client-Library
19:44 < exch> raylu: a few even http://go-lang.cat-v.org/pure-go-libs
19:45 < raylu> thanks :D
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20:05 < nbjoerg> hm.  I wonder how much work a Go to C compiler actually
would be
20:06 < rsaarelm> The channels and goroutines could be tricky.
20:07 < nbjoerg> channels should be relatively easy
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20:08 < nbjoerg> I mean channels require basically a locked fifo, no big
surprises with that
20:09 < nbjoerg> function literals and go routines are the nasty things as
they create fun with scopes
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20:14 < nbjoerg> hm.  "float either 32 or 64 bits
20:14 < nbjoerg> "
20:14 < nbjoerg> wouldn't it be better to say "a floating point type of at
least 32bit"?
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20:20 < raylu> i haven't really dealt with go before and i'm a little
confused as to how to build http://github.com/RecursiveForest/goty
20:20 < raylu> oh wait, it's a library...  of course there's no executable
=\
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20:26 < raylu> ok...  i'm still a bit confused about how to use it.
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20:26 < raylu> import "goty.goty" and 6g -I ../goty doesn't seem to do it
20:27 < nickaugust> raylu: have you read the tutorial?
20:27 * raylu is doing that now :(
20:27 < nickaugust> also you can use goinstall to install libs
20:27 < nickaugust> and if youre importing a local file you use import
"./goty.goty"
20:28 < nickaugust> and you have to do 6g and then 6l
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20:30 < exch> raylu: example project of how to use multiple packages and
import them into an app.  Includes makefiles showing how to build them:
http://github.com/jteeuwen/go-example-multipkg
20:32 < raylu> https://pastee.org/d9e6c
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20:33 < exch> imports do not work with straight .go files.  you have to
compile each package first and install it somewhere.  Then compile your main app
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20:35 < nbjoerg> btw, linker question: does go have a way to "reexport"
symbols?
20:35 < raylu> hm...  but the sic.go example just uses import "goty":
http://github.com/RecursiveForest/goty/blob/master/sic.go
20:36 < exch> raylu: that works because by default, packages are installed
in the Go package repository.  which is in your $PATH
20:37 < raylu> i see...  running make install in the goty directory fixed
it, but it would be nice if i could distribute this without having the user go
through that trouble.  also, there's another issue now
20:37 < raylu> sic.go:4: can't find import: bufio
20:39 < plexdev> http://is.gd/epblf by [Adam Langley] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- crypto/ocsp: add missing Makefile
20:39 < raylu> may be related to the http test failure i got when running
all.bash
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20:59 < raylu> https://pastee.org/fs3jr
21:00 < exch> that's been seen before.  it shouldn't influence the actual
build of all the go stuff
21:01 < nbjoerg> you can try the v6only patch
21:01 < nbjoerg> that should fix that
21:01 < raylu> hm, well, i still can't import basic libraries
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21:02 < raylu> hello.go:3: can't find import: fmt
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21:13 < raylu> hm...  the v6only patch seemed to have fixed that issue
21:16 < raylu> but i still get hello.go:3: can't find import: fmt
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21:16 < raylu> the only thing that seemed out of the ordinary after a
clean.bash and all.bash was: sed: can't read ./tmp.go: No such file or directory
21:35 < exch> Do you have Go installed in some special location, or is there
something off with your Go environment variables?
21:35 < drhodes> raylu: I was having the "can't find import :fmt" problem a
couple days ago.  I ended up removing the entire goroot, and cloning a new repo,
that fixed it.
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21:39 < RobotGrrl> Is there a drawing capability in Go yet?
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21:40 < exch> RobotGrrl: there are a few.  there is the exp/draw package.
It's experimental though.  And there are some SDL/Opengl bindings
21:40 < exch> which can be found here
http://go-lang.cat-v.org/library-bindings
21:41 < exch> I believe there is also a SVG library
21:41 < RobotGrrl> oh, nice!
21:42 < jessta> RobotGrrl: there are also GTK and x11 bindings
21:42 < exch> ah yes.  those to
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21:44 < cw> there is also a draw package w/ various primites
21:45 < cw> nigel is adding more and more to that as time progresses
21:45 < RobotGrrl> sweet :)
21:45 < cw> output to X11 works (well enough i'm using it) and of course png
works
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21:55 < skelterjohn> X11 seems to work everywhere except on my computer ;|
21:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/epfF2 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/mime/ --
mime: delete unnecessary constant conversions.
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22:27 < matt444> playing around with the html package.  can't seem to loop
through it though.  What's wrong with this?  http://go.pastie.org/1103105
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22:29 < exch> matt444: are you getting an error?
22:29 < matt444> no
22:29 < matt444> it compiles
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22:29 < matt444> but only hits html.Error
22:29 < matt444> nothing else
22:29 < matt444> the error is "0"
22:29 < matt444> which i believe means EOF
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22:30 < exch> are you sure you are getting data from the website?
22:30 < matt444> yes
22:31 < jessta> matt444: html.Error is just an int
22:31 < matt444> i converted it to text and println(shtml)
22:31 < jessta> you should call z.Error()
22:31 < matt444> ok
22:31 < jessta> "Error returns the error associated with the most recent
Error token.  This is typically os.EOF, meaning the end of tokenization."
22:31 < skelterjohn> if html.Error is an int, then 0 probably means no error
22:32 < exch> the file token_test.go in $GOROOT/src/pkg/html has an example
of how to use it
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22:33 < exch> case Error: if z.Error() != os.EOF { println(z.Error()) } else
{ break loop }
22:33 < matt444> i used the example from the docs
22:34 < matt444> i did println(z.Error().String())
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22:34 < matt444> and it says TODO(nigeltao): implement comments
22:34 < jessta> lol
22:35 < exch> :p
22:35 < exch> there's a bunch of those in the package I see
22:35 < matt444> hah
22:36 < exch> considering the comments, I wonder if this package belongs in
the Go release yet
22:36 < matt444> actually
22:36 < matt444> according to the code
22:36 < matt444> they expect a comment
22:36 < matt444> but in this case it is doctype declaration
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22:37 < matt444> exch: it should probably be in exp
22:37 < exch> yea
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22:46 < matt444> shouldn't it still advance to the next token?
22:46 < raylu> drhodes: tried that; no luck
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23:14 < plexdev> http://is.gd/epkaE by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/ast/ -- go/ast Fprint: handle cycles in AST
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--- Log closed Fri Aug 20 00:00:05 2010