--- Log opened Sat Aug 28 00:00:05 2010
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00:30 < drhodes> type Number int; is there a shortcut for coercing Number
-> int, and int -> Number?
00:33 < drhodes> probably not, because those values aren't guaranteed to be
1 to 1
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00:36 < KirkMcDonald> drhodes: int(n) and Number(i) should both work.
00:36 < drhodes> I tried that :)
00:36 < drhodes> I'll try again, just in case I did it wrong
00:39 < drhodes> yep I was doing it wrong, thanks KirkMcDonald
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02:09 < gnuvince> Is there no math.Abs function for ints?
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02:14 < nickaugust> so my index tree is growing too large to keep in memory
all at once :/ any tips on how to go about modifying this library to work from the
hard disk rather than memory?
http://github.com/petar/GoLLRB/blob/5e4f0427244c2d6f5fc345fa95320bc600a738e1/llrb/llrb.go
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02:33 < jhawk28> nickaugust: what is too large for memory?  the tree or the
values in the tree?
02:34 < nickaugust> jhawk28: im sure if i could do the values on disk and
jsut the tree in memory it would be fine.  i think couchdb does that actually
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02:36 < jhawk28> nickaugust: why not just use something like couchdb then?
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02:38 < nickaugust> jhawk28: i do use couchdb sometimes and it works pretty
good in some situations.  im trying to do the whole thing in go for this projet
though
02:38 < nickaugust> s/projet/project
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02:43 < jhawk28> you could generate a guid for the object when added and
then write it to a temp location on disk
02:43 < jhawk28> then when it needs to be retrieved, deserialize the value
02:44 < jhawk28> the problem is of course generating the unique value that
is close to how you want your tree ordered
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02:50 < nickaugust> if i could just save the tree to disk and have it work
the same way it does in memory, but with disk seeks rather than memory calls..  i
think that could work
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03:27 < pigdude> can go run on android?
03:30 < nickaugust> pigdude: the compilers support ARM code generation so it
is possible yes
03:31 < pigdude> nickaugust: has anybody done it?
03:32 < nickaugust> pigdude: i think at this point they say its possible but
no one has done any work towards it.  its just not a goal of the main developers
at the moment as far as i can tell
03:32 < pigdude> I think I will do it
03:33 < pigdude> I think go will be more popular with what is happening with
java now
03:33 < nickaugust> have you started writing go code yet?
03:34 < pigdude> nope :^)
03:34 < nickaugust> im sure theres lots of people that would be happy to see
some development in that area
03:34 < nickaugust> pigdude: well get started!  let me know how you like it
03:34 < pigdude> yea, and it looks like a pretty simple language so I'm
hoping to get moving quickly
03:35 < pigdude> that's all I was curious about, if it was possible to run
it on android
03:35 < pigdude> because that's a major factor in its future popularity
03:35 < pigdude> google could tell oracle to screw themselves and make go
standard on android
03:35 < sukuri> I would figure goroutines and it's unique type system would
be a major factor in its future popularity, personally
03:37 < nickaugust> i like gos approach to concurrency.  its simple and
nice.  but not mind blowing by any standards
03:37 < nickaugust> im sure the arm stuff will come in time
03:38 < pigdude> are ' and " equivalent for strings like in python?
03:38 < Namegduf> No, '' is a character literal.
03:41 < pigdude> ok like c
03:41 < nickaugust> Namegduf: hey man...  my index tree that ive been
working on is growing too large to keep storing in memory.  do you think i can
just store the entire tree on disk and access it from there?
03:41 < Namegduf> That sounds extremely slow.
03:42 < nickaugust> thats what i was thinking..  frick.
03:42 < nickaugust> pigdude: a lot of the go stuff is closer to c than
python, etc
03:42 < pigdude> that's fune
03:42 < pigdude> *fine
03:42 < pigdude> what is the difference between 'import "fmt"' and 'import
fmt "fmt"'?
03:43 < KirkMcDonald> pigdude: Nothing.
03:43 < nickaugust> never seen that before
03:43 < KirkMcDonald> pigdude: The latter explicitly defines which
identifier to bind the package to.
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03:43 < KirkMcDonald> By default it is the last word in the name of the
package.
03:44 < pigdude> saw it at http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html
03:47 < nickaugust> why doesnt this go into swap space or something instead
of just throwing "mmap: errno=0x1"
03:50 < pigdude> is there a way to do what 6g and 6l do in a single command?
03:51 < KirkMcDonald> pigdude: 6g -o main.6 foo.go && 6l -o foo main.6
03:51 < KirkMcDonald> One command!  Heh.
03:51 < pigdude> hehe
03:52 < pigdude> does go provide an interpretive environment?  or an
interactive shell?
03:52 < pigdude> *interpreted
03:53 < nickaugust> i havent seen one
03:53 < pigdude> nickaugust: haha http://github.com/vito/go-repl
03:53 < nickaugust> and you can use makefiles
03:53 < pigdude> nickaugust: "Builds up Go source as the session goes on,
compiles and runs it with every input."
03:54 < nickaugust> hm neato
03:54 < pigdude> I suppose that's one way to make a repl :^)
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04:09 < pigdude> KirkMcDonald: au Filetype go nnoremap <buffer>
<C-P> :w<CR>:!~/go/bin/6g -o go-build % && ~/go/bin/6l -o go-out
go-build && ./go-out<CR>
04:09 < pigdude> (vim)
04:09 < pigdude> build and run with <C-P>
04:09 < KirkMcDonald> Heh.
04:09 < pigdude> for one file of course
04:09 < pigdude> but I map <C-P> to something for almost every
filetype
04:09 < KirkMcDonald> My very first Go program was precisely this.
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04:15 < pigdude> well there goes my weekend
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04:33 < pjz> is there a good makefile include or something I can use to get
'make foo.go' to build?
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05:36 < pjz> found one on the mailing list and fixed it up a little.
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18:09 < yiyus> if i have already done a cl with codereview, how do i proceed
to make further changes for a different cl?
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18:32 < fly-away> hi2all
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18:57 <+iant> yiyus: you can't, you have to check out a separate copy of the
repository
19:01 < yiyus> but what if i want to do the second set of changes on top of
the second one?
19:03 < yiyus> iant: this is what i'm doing...
19:03 < yiyus> i have done a cl with some changes to the compiler
19:03 <+iant> you have to copy the repository and copy your changes over
19:03 <+iant> the codereview system is not distributed
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19:03 <+iant> well, you actually can keep working in the same repository
19:03 < yiyus> now, i want to do another one with the changes to the tree
that that change implies
19:03 <+iant> as long as you are careful not to upload the CL again
19:04 <+iant> sure, I understand what you want to do
19:04 <+iant> the system does not work very well for that
19:04 < yiyus> so, once i'm done, i just create a new cl which will include
all the changes
19:05 < yiyus> ?
19:05 <+iant> If you want CLs to be accepted, they should be minimal
19:05 <+iant> once the first one is accepted, you can update the other
repository to bring it in
19:05 <+iant> then you can make a CL with the additional changes
19:05 < yiyus> to be honest, i see few chances it will be accepted, it is an
experiment
19:05 <+iant> then you can do whatever you like
19:05 <+iant> you don't need to use the codereview mechanism at all
19:06 < yiyus> it is about this:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-dev/browse_thread/thread/ede2ba6910d6bedc
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19:06 < yiyus> but ok, thanks iant
19:08 < Rednaxela> Question...  what is the recommended way to avoid the GC
performance issues highlighted by the "binary-trees" example in the "Computer
Language Benchmarks Game"?  Is it using a free list as seen here
http://bit.ly/cEDtOJ
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19:11 < nsf> Rednaxela: I'm afraid you can't avoid them, because GC's time
will be most likely strictly proportional to the size of the heap
19:11 < nsf> with current GC you can only try to get rid of pointers in your
structs
19:11 < nsf> and present things in a different way
19:11 < nsf> imho
19:12 < nsf> I'm not really a specialist here :D
19:12 < Rednaxela> Hmm
19:12 < nsf> binary tree of course has a lot of pointers
19:13 < nsf> and that causes GC to be slow
19:14 < nsf> you can try to replace a pointer in the Node struct with an
index
19:14 < nsf> to some kind of a pool, which contains all the nodes
19:14 < nsf> I think it will give better performance
19:15 < Rednaxela> Hmm, good to know
19:16 < nsf> it's just guess, keep that in mind :)
19:17 < Rednaxela> Yeah, though to me sounds like a guess that makes logical
sense thus should be worth looking into if I run into the issue perhaps
19:18 < Rednaxela> Any thoughts on the struct-reuse in the link I gave?
That appears to bring the performance to good levels in the case of very
transiently used structs
19:19 < nsf> struct reuse is good, you definitely should keep them in pool
19:20 < nsf> but, I'm afraid it won't help with GC time
19:21 < nsf> also for some reason in the "Computer Language Benchmarks Game"
all binary tree implementations don't do that
19:21 < nsf> I mean it's the obvious thing to do in C or C++ for me
19:21 < nsf> for a tree
19:22 < Rednaxela> I'm pretty sure the point of it is to benchmark
object/struct allocation/deallocation
19:22 < nsf> and the GC
19:23 < Rednaxela> which I suspect is why the pooled variant of the go
example is in the "interesting alternative" section
19:23 < nsf> "Note: this is an adaptation of a benchmark for testing GC so
we are interested in the whole tree being allocated before any nodes are GC'd -
which probably excludes lazy evaluation."
19:23 < Rednaxela> Yeah
19:23 < nsf> from the description :)
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19:25 < Rednaxela> Well, the pooled varient in go there is faster than the
single-threaded GCC version, which I think would primarily show that struct pools
in go are faster than malloc/dealloc in C
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19:26 < nsf> I guess it says that pools are a good optimization for binary
trees :)
19:26 < Rednaxela> Yeah
19:26 < Rednaxela> Though struct pools complicate trying to do concurrent
things
19:26 < nsf> and for other kind of systems with many small-constant-sized
objects
19:26 < nsf> yes, they do
19:27 < nsf> also note that malloc and free are thread safe
19:27 < nsf> and pools aren't ususally
19:27 < nsf> usually*
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19:27 < Rednaxela> Yeah
19:29 < Rednaxela> Wonder what a good solution is, for code that needs to do
a concurrent tree search with lots of transient structs
19:29 < Rednaxela> =\
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21:35 < helmut> hi.  I was wondering whether functions are first class
citizens.  my first guess would be "no" after reading the tutorial.  is that
correct?
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21:35 < nsf> have no idea what that actually means, but I've heard that they
are
21:35 < nsf> :D
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21:36 < nbjoerg> yes and no
21:37 < helmut> :-(
21:37 < nbjoerg> they aremore limited than functions in Scheme, but more
powerful than functioncs in C
21:37 < helmut> what additional powers do they provide?
21:37 < nbjoerg> keep in mind that Go is a compiled language
21:37 < helmut> so is haskell
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21:38 < nbjoerg> so building things like complex lambdas is not necessarily
a good idea
21:38 < nbjoerg> Haskell is "special"
21:38 < helmut> well complex lambdas actually is just a lot of syntactic
sugar.
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21:39 < helmut> I can turn every lambda into a class with a method.
21:39 < gnuvince> Go has full lexical closures
21:39 < nbjoerg> e.g.  if you build complex stuff from lambdas, it will
likely be a lot slowr than writing a proper function
21:40 < helmut> for instance c++ tries hard to hide the fact that functions
are not first clss
21:40 < nbjoerg> in that sense, it is different from Scheme
21:40 < nbjoerg> but that's the only major difference, I think
21:40 < helmut> nbjoerg: I really do not see how lambdas might slow things
down.
21:41 < nbjoerg> helmut: see above, lexical closure
21:42 < nbjoerg> and keep the interaction with the call stack in mind ;)
21:43 < helmut> ahh.  I think I understand the difference now (having read
the part of the spec)
21:43 < helmut> so go provides lambda-like expressions for the vast majority
of use cases without sacrificing performance.  :-)
21:44 < helmut> like pascal
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21:45 < nbjoerg> Pascal had lambdas?
21:45 < nbjoerg> Pascal had *anything* useful?
21:45 < helmut> basically I use python all day, but python has a hard time
with coroutines, so I was looking for alternatives.
21:45 < nsf> goroutines aren't really coroutines
21:45 < helmut> nbjoerg: pascal didn't have lambdas, but you could write
functions inside functions to share locals.
21:46 < nsf> each goroutine eats 4 kylobytes of memory
21:46 < helmut> nsf: uhh.  I haven't found a difference, yet.
21:46 < nsf> sorry, kilobytes
21:46 < helmut> that's ok.  :-)
21:47 <+iant> In Go, you can return a function from a function, and the
returned function can still refer to local variables
21:47 < helmut> only thing is, i am forced to de-coroutinize my thoughts for
python all the time and it kills my coding performance.
21:47 <+iant> That did not work in versions of Pascal that I used
21:47 < nsf> maybe, but I thought that coroutines usually a bit lighter on
memory
21:47 < helmut> iant: correct
21:48 < helmut> iant: so go is even more powerful.  I wonder what exactly is
missing for proper first class then
21:48 < nbjoerg> helmut: stackless python :)
21:48 <+iant> I think functions are first class in Go
21:48 < KirkMcDonald> I see no reason not to describe functions as
first-class values in Go.
21:48 <+iant> well, I suppose can't dynamically construct a new function
21:48 < nbjoerg> "first class functions" is one of those "features" that
don't make much sense
21:49 < KirkMcDonald> iant: Closures!  To an extent.
21:49 < nbjoerg> unless you have a language from 1970
21:49 <+iant> so in that sense LISP or Scheme are more powerful
21:49 <+iant> in that in those languages you can actually write a function
at runtime and then call it
21:49 < helmut> nbjoerg: I thought about that, but 1) it's not packaged for
debian 2) it's little supported hack.
21:49 < nsf> "Specifically, this means that the language supports
constructing new functions during the execution of a program, storing them in data
structures, passing them as arguments to other functions, and returning them as
the values of other functions."
21:49 < KirkMcDonald> iant: And e.g.  Python can do that.
21:49 < nsf> (c) wiki
21:49 < KirkMcDonald> iant: Not that it's ever a good idea to do it in
Python.
21:49 <+iant> k
21:50 < KirkMcDonald> Well, I guess Python qualifies due to the technicality
that the "def" statement is evaluated at runtime.
21:50 < nbjoerg> you can meulate the effect with lexical scopes and lambdas
21:50 < nbjoerg> but not efficiently
21:51 < helmut> what does "dynamically construct a new function" mean?  when
I write a lambda expression the code stays the same all the time, only the symbols
are rebound.
21:51 <+iant> e.g., in Scheme you could have the user type in Scheme code,
and you could turn that into a function and call it
21:51 < helmut> and this symbol binding/closures is exactly the thing that
makes lambdas powerful.
21:52 < nsf> helmut: well, if it's ok for you (that code stays the same), I
guess Go has first-class functions
21:52 < helmut> nsf: yes.  :-)
21:52 < nsf> ah..  there is a note actually
21:52 < nsf> "This concept doesn't cover any means external to the language
and program (metaprogramming), such as invoking a compiler or an eval function to
create a new function."
21:53 < helmut> nsf: it's the same with int.  you cannot magically construct
a new int, well actually you can by adding ints for instance.  the same can be
done with lambdas, by composing.
21:53 * helmut doesn't need eval.
21:53 < nsf> I understand lambda as a function + bits of data
21:53 < nsf> not sure how correct it is
21:53 < helmut> so yes, go functions are first class enough for me.
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21:55 < helmut> does go have any concept of macros?
21:55 < nsf> nope
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21:55 < nsf> but nothing stops you from using preprocessor
21:55 < KirkMcDonald> Except the torches and pitchforks of your peers.
21:56 < helmut> hehe
21:57 < nsf> although to me, C/C++ experience shows that havind PP hurts..
and D shows that having even very good embedded preprocessing language (aka
templates) hurts too
21:57 < nsf> because in order to implement tools for that language you'll
have to implement half of the compiler
21:57 < nsf> which isn't really a nice perspective :)
21:57 < nsf> at least to me
21:57 < helmut> nsf: the problem with c/c++ preprocessor is that is not
aware of the language.
21:58 < KirkMcDonald> I would describe that as one of the problems.
21:58 < nsf> helmut: it's not the only problem
21:58 < nsf> :D
21:58 < nsf> have you ever seen C/C++ refactoring utilities?
21:58 < nsf> and guess why there are so many java tools out there?
21:58 < helmut> I'm not sure what you might mean.
21:59 < KirkMcDonald> Parsing C++ is *hard*.
21:59 < nsf> things like let you rename an identifier, etc.
21:59 < Rednaxela> It's evident from the compile times of C++ programs
21:59 < Rednaxela> (i.e.  compiling KDE vs something in C of similar size)
21:59 < nsf> C is rather slow too
22:00 < Rednaxela> Yeah, though to a lesser extent
22:00 < helmut> well in my opinion a preprocessor should be run on the ast
instead of the source.  this is what lisp and haskell do with quite some success.
22:01 < nsf> yep, I guess that approach is better
22:01 < nsf> but still, if you have something that is context dependent
22:01 < nsf> and you want to figure out that in a tool or something
22:01 < nsf> you'll have to preprocess
22:02 < nsf> and it is painful
22:02 < nsf> documentation generators (e.g.  doxygen) still have bugs in
C/C++ part
22:03 < helmut> even better, you can implement your context dependent stuff
post-proprocessor on the ast, too.  :-)
22:03 < nsf> languages that are 30 and 20 years old
22:03 < nsf> well, I don't know
22:03 < nsf> I'm not a big fan of preprocessing
22:04 < nsf> I think giving a set of containers to a language (or an ability
to create them) is a good thing
22:04 < nsf> but it should be really restricted
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22:04 < nsf> because otherwise users will misuse that feature
22:05 < helmut> often enough I have found the syntax too limited to express
certain things effectively and the a preprocessor helps in those cases.
22:05 < nsf> I don't think that better expressiveness by adding things
improves readability
22:05 < helmut> and in languages like python the lack of a preproc results
in a lot of boilerplate
22:06 < nsf> python has 0 problems with that
22:06 < nsf> because it's dynamic
22:06 < nsf> you can do 'eval' and you're done
22:06 < helmut> does't help in all cases.
22:07 < nsf> I don't believe you :)
22:07 < nsf> the only problem with that - it's slow and in order to be fast
requires JIT compilation
22:07 < helmut> well you cannot write an expression and then transform it.
22:07 < nsf> why do you need that?
22:07 < helmut> workarounds would be quoting the expression which kills
syntax highlighting
22:08 < nsf> I think good look of a code is overrated
22:08 < helmut> hehe
22:08 < nsf> it should be clear and readable
22:08 < nsf> other than than it can be as long as hell
22:09 < nsf> and ugly too
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22:09 < helmut> for instance implementing callcc in python adds a *lot* of
boilerplate
22:09 < nsf> I don't know what callcc means
22:09 < nsf> :(
22:09 < helmut> call-with-current-continuation
22:10 < nsf> omg, and why do you need that?
22:10 < nsf> :)
22:10 < helmut> because python doesn't have coroutines %-)
22:10 < nsf> stackless python has
22:10 < helmut> stackless userbase is too small for my taste
22:11 < nsf> well, EVE Online servers are implemented in stackless python
22:11 < nsf> I think it's rather big
22:11 < nsf> bigger than Go :)
22:11 < helmut> I doubt this relation to be permanent
22:11 < nsf> we'll see, python is slow, it's the sad part
22:12 < nsf> and all efforts to make it fast
22:12 < nsf> doesn't look really good
22:12 < helmut> pypy can produce quite some speed.
22:12 < nsf> I haven't seen an evidence of that
22:12 < KirkMcDonald> The site I work for is almost entirely Python.
22:12 < nsf> I have a plenty of scripts
22:12 < nsf> and pypy runs them slower that python
22:12 < nsf> than cpython*
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22:13 < nsf> than*
22:13 < nsf> ugh..
22:13 < helmut> if you compile them, they should be faster.
22:13 < jcao219> lol
22:13 < helmut> of course that only works if they are in this rpython subset
22:13 < KirkMcDonald> It will be interesting if Unladen-Swallow manages to
actually do what they hope it will.
22:13 < nsf> helmut: yep, they are mostly regexps
22:13 < nsf> so, rpython won't help
22:14 < nsf> I think the main mistake of a pypy
22:14 < nsf> is that it relies on JIT to get a speed up
22:14 < nsf> and leaves interpretator unoptimized
22:14 < nsf> interp runs 2-4x slower than CPython
22:14 < nsf> and it's pretty bad
22:14 < helmut> basically pypy is a compiler for rpython + a python
interpreter in rpython.
22:15 < nsf> I know what pypy is :)
22:15 < helmut> the interesting part imho is the compiler
22:15 < nsf> it's not interesting to me
22:15 < nsf> because it's not a general purpose compiler
22:15 < nsf> it's tuned to be used for interp generation purposes
22:16 < nsf> take luajit for example
22:16 < nsf> luajit2 has interpreter that runs 2-4x _faster_ than the native
one
22:16 < nsf> plus JIT
22:16 < nsf> that's the speed :)
22:16 < helmut> hehe
22:16 < helmut> well I expect go to be faster than python of course
22:17 < nsf> it is faster
22:17 < nsf> Go should be as fast as Java and C#
22:17 < nsf> in a perspective :)
22:17 < nsf> and maybe even faster
22:18 < nsf> (at least faster than Java for sure)
22:19 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: it is, but progress seems slow:
http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/w/list
22:19 < nsf> we know one thing now
22:20 < nsf> it is very hard to make python fast
22:20 < nsf> :)
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 29 00:00:05 2010