--- Log opened Sat Aug 28 00:00:05 2010 00:05 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn_jp@112-68-65-199.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 00:07 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-65-214.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:14 -!- Boney_ [~paul@124-148-152-30.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20 -!- sacho [~sacho@91.139.247.75] has joined #go-nuts 00:22 -!- ExtraSpice [~XtraSpice@88.118.32.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:24 -!- gabriel9 [~gabriel9@93.157.192.28] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30 < drhodes> type Number int; is there a shortcut for coercing Number -> int, and int -> Number? 00:33 < drhodes> probably not, because those values aren't guaranteed to be 1 to 1 00:33 -!- ymasory [~yuvi@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:36 < KirkMcDonald> drhodes: int(n) and Number(i) should both work. 00:36 < drhodes> I tried that :) 00:36 < drhodes> I'll try again, just in case I did it wrong 00:39 < drhodes> yep I was doing it wrong, thanks KirkMcDonald 00:40 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn_jp@112-68-65-199.eonet.ne.jp] has left #go-nuts [] 00:42 -!- ericvh [~ericvh@2002:467b:802c:0:223:6cff:fe93:c616] has joined #go-nuts 00:50 -!- crashR [~crasher@codextreme.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: (◣_◢) BigBrowser is watching ⓎⓄⓊ] 00:50 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn_jp@112-68-65-199.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 00:52 -!- tvw [~tv@e176003183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55 -!- crashR [~crasher@codextreme.pck.nerim.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:56 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn_jp@112-68-65-199.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:59 -!- iant [~iant@66.109.106.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00 -!- Boney [~paul@124-148-152-30.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 01:12 -!- enherit [~enherit@cpe-98-149-170-48.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:23 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:29 -!- g0bl1n [~pr0kter@a213-22-18-58.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: I haz a dreamz...] 01:41 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-138-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:48 -!- jhawk28 [~jhawk28@user-142g7u9.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:50 -!- iant [~iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:51 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 01:51 -!- mattikus [~mattikus@ip24-250-73-154.br.br.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:58 -!- Nexoro [~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:07 -!- scarabx [~scarabx@c-76-19-43-200.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:09 < gnuvince> Is there no math.Abs function for ints? 02:12 -!- jcao219_ [~jcao219@pool-173-74-61-111.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:12 -!- jcao219 [~jcao219@pool-173-74-61-111.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:14 < nickaugust> so my index tree is growing too large to keep in memory all at once :/ any tips on how to go about modifying this library to work from the hard disk rather than memory? http://github.com/petar/GoLLRB/blob/5e4f0427244c2d6f5fc345fa95320bc600a738e1/llrb/llrb.go 02:21 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 02:29 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn_jp@180-144-147-245.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 02:33 < jhawk28> nickaugust: what is too large for memory? the tree or the values in the tree? 02:34 < nickaugust> jhawk28: im sure if i could do the values on disk and jsut the tree in memory it would be fine. i think couchdb does that actually 02:35 -!- gabriel9 [~gabriel9@93.157.192.28] has joined #go-nuts 02:36 < jhawk28> nickaugust: why not just use something like couchdb then? 02:37 -!- sukuri [~travis@246.45.101.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:38 < nickaugust> jhawk28: i do use couchdb sometimes and it works pretty good in some situations. im trying to do the whole thing in go for this projet though 02:38 < nickaugust> s/projet/project 02:38 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:42 -!- ericvh [~ericvh@2002:467b:802c:0:223:6cff:fe93:c616] has quit [Quit: ericvh] 02:43 < jhawk28> you could generate a guid for the object when added and then write it to a temp location on disk 02:43 < jhawk28> then when it needs to be retrieved, deserialize the value 02:44 < jhawk28> the problem is of course generating the unique value that is close to how you want your tree ordered 02:48 -!- mattn_jp [~mattn_jp@180-144-147-245.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-160-233.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:50 < nickaugust> if i could just save the tree to disk and have it work the same way it does in memory, but with disk seeks rather than memory calls.. i think that could work 03:00 -!- arek_deepinit [~arek@77.236.0.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01 -!- jhawk28 [~jhawk28@user-142g7u9.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:02 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11 -!- RobertLJ [~quassel@c-68-44-163-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:27 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:27 < pigdude> can go run on android? 03:30 < nickaugust> pigdude: the compilers support ARM code generation so it is possible yes 03:31 < pigdude> nickaugust: has anybody done it? 03:32 < nickaugust> pigdude: i think at this point they say its possible but no one has done any work towards it. its just not a goal of the main developers at the moment as far as i can tell 03:32 < pigdude> I think I will do it 03:33 < pigdude> I think go will be more popular with what is happening with java now 03:33 < nickaugust> have you started writing go code yet? 03:34 < pigdude> nope :^) 03:34 < nickaugust> im sure theres lots of people that would be happy to see some development in that area 03:34 < nickaugust> pigdude: well get started! let me know how you like it 03:34 < pigdude> yea, and it looks like a pretty simple language so I'm hoping to get moving quickly 03:35 < pigdude> that's all I was curious about, if it was possible to run it on android 03:35 < pigdude> because that's a major factor in its future popularity 03:35 < pigdude> google could tell oracle to screw themselves and make go standard on android 03:35 < sukuri> I would figure goroutines and it's unique type system would be a major factor in its future popularity, personally 03:37 < nickaugust> i like gos approach to concurrency. its simple and nice. but not mind blowing by any standards 03:37 < nickaugust> im sure the arm stuff will come in time 03:38 < pigdude> are ' and " equivalent for strings like in python? 03:38 < Namegduf> No, '' is a character literal. 03:41 < pigdude> ok like c 03:41 < nickaugust> Namegduf: hey man... my index tree that ive been working on is growing too large to keep storing in memory. do you think i can just store the entire tree on disk and access it from there? 03:41 < Namegduf> That sounds extremely slow. 03:42 < nickaugust> thats what i was thinking.. frick. 03:42 < nickaugust> pigdude: a lot of the go stuff is closer to c than python, etc 03:42 < pigdude> that's fune 03:42 < pigdude> *fine 03:42 < pigdude> what is the difference between 'import "fmt"' and 'import fmt "fmt"'? 03:43 < KirkMcDonald> pigdude: Nothing. 03:43 < nickaugust> never seen that before 03:43 < KirkMcDonald> pigdude: The latter explicitly defines which identifier to bind the package to. 03:43 -!- ymasory [~yuvi@c-76-99-55-224.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ymasory] 03:43 < KirkMcDonald> By default it is the last word in the name of the package. 03:44 < pigdude> saw it at http://golang.org/doc/go_tutorial.html 03:47 < nickaugust> why doesnt this go into swap space or something instead of just throwing "mmap: errno=0x1" 03:50 < pigdude> is there a way to do what 6g and 6l do in a single command? 03:51 < KirkMcDonald> pigdude: 6g -o main.6 foo.go && 6l -o foo main.6 03:51 < KirkMcDonald> One command! Heh. 03:51 < pigdude> hehe 03:52 < pigdude> does go provide an interpretive environment? or an interactive shell? 03:52 < pigdude> *interpreted 03:53 < nickaugust> i havent seen one 03:53 < pigdude> nickaugust: haha http://github.com/vito/go-repl 03:53 < nickaugust> and you can use makefiles 03:53 < pigdude> nickaugust: "Builds up Go source as the session goes on, compiles and runs it with every input." 03:54 < nickaugust> hm neato 03:54 < pigdude> I suppose that's one way to make a repl :^) 04:02 -!- slashus2 [~slashus2@74-137-24-74.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: slashus2] 04:02 -!- gabriel9 [~gabriel9@93.157.192.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:08 -!- RobertLJ [~quassel@c-68-44-163-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09 < pigdude> KirkMcDonald: au Filetype go nnoremap <buffer> <C-P> :w<CR>:!~/go/bin/6g -o go-build % && ~/go/bin/6l -o go-out go-build && ./go-out<CR> 04:09 < pigdude> (vim) 04:09 < pigdude> build and run with <C-P> 04:09 < KirkMcDonald> Heh. 04:09 < pigdude> for one file of course 04:09 < pigdude> but I map <C-P> to something for almost every filetype 04:09 < KirkMcDonald> My very first Go program was precisely this. 04:11 -!- scarabx [~scarabx@c-76-19-43-200.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:15 < pigdude> well there goes my weekend 04:17 -!- RobertLJ [~quassel@c-68-44-163-191.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:21 -!- jcao219_ [~jcao219@pool-173-74-61-111.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:22 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@i118-21-144-17.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 04:33 < pjz> is there a good makefile include or something I can use to get 'make foo.go' to build? 04:33 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36 -!- carllerche [~carllerch@i118-21-144-17.s30.a048.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38 -!- carllerche 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[~enherit@71-83-188-75.dhcp.lnbh.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:14 -!- gabriel9 [~gabriel9@93.157.192.28] has joined #go-nuts 05:15 -!- sukuri [~travis@246.45.101.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:17 -!- jackman [~jackman@c-67-189-24-232.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18 -!- jackman [~jackman@c-67-189-24-232.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:28 -!- jcao219 [~jcao219@pool-173-74-61-111.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:36 < pjz> found one on the mailing list and fixed it up a little. 05:47 -!- nf_ [~nf@124-168-45-132.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:48 -!- boredomist [~boredomis@24.115.43.39.res-cmts.sesp.ptd.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:53 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-138-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:01 -!- Maxdamantus [~m@203-97-238-106.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:10 -!- rlab 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[~nexo@c-71-192-75-183.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:06 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:09 < yiyus> if i have already done a cl with codereview, how do i proceed to make further changes for a different cl? 18:11 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:17 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1D81D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-138-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:25 -!- luruke [~luruke@151.53.5.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:26 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 18:32 -!- fly-away [~fly@87.228.47.37] has joined #go-nuts 18:32 < fly-away> hi2all 18:40 -!- MizardX [~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40 -!- jcao219 [~jcao219@pool-173-74-61-111.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40 -!- MizardX [~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has joined #go-nuts 18:40 -!- jcao219 [~jcao219@pool-173-74-61-111.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:46 -!- luruke [~luruke@151.53.5.134] has joined #go-nuts 18:50 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:53 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 18:56 -!- napsy [~luka@tm.213.143.73.175.lc.telemach.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:57 <+iant> yiyus: you can't, you have to check out a separate copy of the repository 19:01 < yiyus> but what if i want to do the second set of changes on top of the second one? 19:03 < yiyus> iant: this is what i'm doing... 19:03 < yiyus> i have done a cl with some changes to the compiler 19:03 <+iant> you have to copy the repository and copy your changes over 19:03 <+iant> the codereview system is not distributed 19:03 -!- Rednaxela [~al@CPE0015c5ca8aef-CM0018c0d83828.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:03 <+iant> well, you actually can keep working in the same repository 19:03 < yiyus> now, i want to do another one with the changes to the tree that that change implies 19:03 <+iant> as long as you are careful not to upload the CL again 19:04 <+iant> sure, I understand what you want to do 19:04 <+iant> the system does not work very well for that 19:04 < yiyus> so, once i'm done, i just create a new cl which will include all the changes 19:05 < yiyus> ? 19:05 <+iant> If you want CLs to be accepted, they should be minimal 19:05 <+iant> once the first one is accepted, you can update the other repository to bring it in 19:05 <+iant> then you can make a CL with the additional changes 19:05 < yiyus> to be honest, i see few chances it will be accepted, it is an experiment 19:05 <+iant> then you can do whatever you like 19:05 <+iant> you don't need to use the codereview mechanism at all 19:06 < yiyus> it is about this: http://groups.google.com/group/golang-dev/browse_thread/thread/ede2ba6910d6bedc 19:06 -!- mattikus [~mattikus@ip24-250-73-154.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:06 < yiyus> but ok, thanks iant 19:08 < Rednaxela> Question... what is the recommended way to avoid the GC performance issues highlighted by the "binary-trees" example in the "Computer Language Benchmarks Game"? Is it using a free list as seen here http://bit.ly/cEDtOJ 19:11 -!- Kashia [~Kashia@p4FEB38ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:11 < nsf> Rednaxela: I'm afraid you can't avoid them, because GC's time will be most likely strictly proportional to the size of the heap 19:11 < nsf> with current GC you can only try to get rid of pointers in your structs 19:11 < nsf> and present things in a different way 19:11 < nsf> imho 19:12 < nsf> I'm not really a specialist here :D 19:12 < Rednaxela> Hmm 19:12 < nsf> binary tree of course has a lot of pointers 19:13 < nsf> and that causes GC to be slow 19:14 < nsf> you can try to replace a pointer in the Node struct with an index 19:14 < nsf> to some kind of a pool, which contains all the nodes 19:14 < nsf> I think it will give better performance 19:15 < Rednaxela> Hmm, good to know 19:16 < nsf> it's just guess, keep that in mind :) 19:17 < Rednaxela> Yeah, though to me sounds like a guess that makes logical sense thus should be worth looking into if I run into the issue perhaps 19:18 < Rednaxela> Any thoughts on the struct-reuse in the link I gave? That appears to bring the performance to good levels in the case of very transiently used structs 19:19 < nsf> struct reuse is good, you definitely should keep them in pool 19:20 < nsf> but, I'm afraid it won't help with GC time 19:21 < nsf> also for some reason in the "Computer Language Benchmarks Game" all binary tree implementations don't do that 19:21 < nsf> I mean it's the obvious thing to do in C or C++ for me 19:21 < nsf> for a tree 19:22 < Rednaxela> I'm pretty sure the point of it is to benchmark object/struct allocation/deallocation 19:22 < nsf> and the GC 19:23 < Rednaxela> which I suspect is why the pooled variant of the go example is in the "interesting alternative" section 19:23 < nsf> "Note: this is an adaptation of a benchmark for testing GC so we are interested in the whole tree being allocated before any nodes are GC'd - which probably excludes lazy evaluation." 19:23 < Rednaxela> Yeah 19:23 < nsf> from the description :) 19:23 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:25 < Rednaxela> Well, the pooled varient in go there is faster than the single-threaded GCC version, which I think would primarily show that struct pools in go are faster than malloc/dealloc in C 19:26 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has joined #go-nuts 19:26 < nsf> I guess it says that pools are a good optimization for binary trees :) 19:26 < Rednaxela> Yeah 19:26 < Rednaxela> Though struct pools complicate trying to do concurrent things 19:26 < nsf> and for other kind of systems with many small-constant-sized objects 19:26 < nsf> yes, they do 19:27 < nsf> also note that malloc and free are thread safe 19:27 < nsf> and pools aren't ususally 19:27 < nsf> usually* 19:27 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-136-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27 < Rednaxela> Yeah 19:29 < Rednaxela> Wonder what a good solution is, for code that needs to do a concurrent tree search with lots of transient structs 19:29 < Rednaxela> =\ 19:31 -!- aho [~nya@fuld-4d00d7c9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:34 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 19:35 -!- atsampson [~ats@94-194-126-16.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42 -!- atsampson [~ats@94-194-126-16.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 19:42 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.59.241.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:44 -!- luruke [~luruke@151.53.5.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:47 -!- scm [justme@d135087.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48 -!- scm [justme@c132097.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 19:55 -!- scm [justme@c132097.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:56 -!- scm [justme@d018020.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 20:00 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:02 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has joined #go-nuts 20:02 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has quit [Client Quit] 20:03 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has joined #go-nuts 20:07 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:08 -!- jA_cOp [~yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11 -!- jA_cOp [~yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 20:27 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:27 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@ool-18bba97a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:27 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@ool-18bba97a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:27 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has joined #go-nuts 20:27 -!- napsy [~luka@tm.213.143.73.175.lc.telemach.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:28 -!- scarabx [~scarabx@c-76-19-43-200.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:29 -!- napsy [~luka@tm.213.143.73.175.lc.telemach.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:36 -!- scm [justme@d018020.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37 -!- rlab_ [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 20:40 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:51 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:52 -!- falconindy [~noclaf@unaffiliated/falconindy] has joined #go-nuts 21:03 -!- jA_cOp [~yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:05 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:07 -!- fly-away [~fly@87.228.47.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #go-nuts 21:12 -!- scm [justme@d018084.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:19 -!- scm [justme@d018084.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:20 -!- scm [justme@d057105.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:33 -!- helmut [helmut@subdivi.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:35 < helmut> hi. I was wondering whether functions are first class citizens. my first guess would be "no" after reading the tutorial. is that correct? 21:35 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-136-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:35 < nsf> have no idea what that actually means, but I've heard that they are 21:35 < nsf> :D 21:36 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-228-157-227.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:36 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36 < nbjoerg> yes and no 21:37 < helmut> :-( 21:37 < nbjoerg> they aremore limited than functions in Scheme, but more powerful than functioncs in C 21:37 < helmut> what additional powers do they provide? 21:37 < nbjoerg> keep in mind that Go is a compiled language 21:37 < helmut> so is haskell 21:37 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38 < nbjoerg> so building things like complex lambdas is not necessarily a good idea 21:38 < nbjoerg> Haskell is "special" 21:38 < helmut> well complex lambdas actually is just a lot of syntactic sugar. 21:38 -!- pigdude [~pigdude@c-24-126-115-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:39 < helmut> I can turn every lambda into a class with a method. 21:39 < gnuvince> Go has full lexical closures 21:39 < nbjoerg> e.g. if you build complex stuff from lambdas, it will likely be a lot slowr than writing a proper function 21:40 < helmut> for instance c++ tries hard to hide the fact that functions are not first clss 21:40 < nbjoerg> in that sense, it is different from Scheme 21:40 < nbjoerg> but that's the only major difference, I think 21:40 < helmut> nbjoerg: I really do not see how lambdas might slow things down. 21:41 < nbjoerg> helmut: see above, lexical closure 21:42 < nbjoerg> and keep the interaction with the call stack in mind ;) 21:43 < helmut> ahh. I think I understand the difference now (having read the part of the spec) 21:43 < helmut> so go provides lambda-like expressions for the vast majority of use cases without sacrificing performance. :-) 21:44 < helmut> like pascal 21:44 -!- scm [justme@d057105.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:45 < nbjoerg> Pascal had lambdas? 21:45 < nbjoerg> Pascal had *anything* useful? 21:45 < helmut> basically I use python all day, but python has a hard time with coroutines, so I was looking for alternatives. 21:45 < nsf> goroutines aren't really coroutines 21:45 < helmut> nbjoerg: pascal didn't have lambdas, but you could write functions inside functions to share locals. 21:46 < nsf> each goroutine eats 4 kylobytes of memory 21:46 < helmut> nsf: uhh. I haven't found a difference, yet. 21:46 < nsf> sorry, kilobytes 21:46 < helmut> that's ok. :-) 21:47 <+iant> In Go, you can return a function from a function, and the returned function can still refer to local variables 21:47 < helmut> only thing is, i am forced to de-coroutinize my thoughts for python all the time and it kills my coding performance. 21:47 <+iant> That did not work in versions of Pascal that I used 21:47 < nsf> maybe, but I thought that coroutines usually a bit lighter on memory 21:47 < helmut> iant: correct 21:48 < helmut> iant: so go is even more powerful. I wonder what exactly is missing for proper first class then 21:48 < nbjoerg> helmut: stackless python :) 21:48 <+iant> I think functions are first class in Go 21:48 < KirkMcDonald> I see no reason not to describe functions as first-class values in Go. 21:48 <+iant> well, I suppose can't dynamically construct a new function 21:48 < nbjoerg> "first class functions" is one of those "features" that don't make much sense 21:49 < KirkMcDonald> iant: Closures! To an extent. 21:49 < nbjoerg> unless you have a language from 1970 21:49 <+iant> so in that sense LISP or Scheme are more powerful 21:49 <+iant> in that in those languages you can actually write a function at runtime and then call it 21:49 < helmut> nbjoerg: I thought about that, but 1) it's not packaged for debian 2) it's little supported hack. 21:49 < nsf> "Specifically, this means that the language supports constructing new functions during the execution of a program, storing them in data structures, passing them as arguments to other functions, and returning them as the values of other functions." 21:49 < KirkMcDonald> iant: And e.g. Python can do that. 21:49 < nsf> (c) wiki 21:49 < KirkMcDonald> iant: Not that it's ever a good idea to do it in Python. 21:49 <+iant> k 21:50 < KirkMcDonald> Well, I guess Python qualifies due to the technicality that the "def" statement is evaluated at runtime. 21:50 < nbjoerg> you can meulate the effect with lexical scopes and lambdas 21:50 < nbjoerg> but not efficiently 21:51 < helmut> what does "dynamically construct a new function" mean? when I write a lambda expression the code stays the same all the time, only the symbols are rebound. 21:51 <+iant> e.g., in Scheme you could have the user type in Scheme code, and you could turn that into a function and call it 21:51 < helmut> and this symbol binding/closures is exactly the thing that makes lambdas powerful. 21:52 < nsf> helmut: well, if it's ok for you (that code stays the same), I guess Go has first-class functions 21:52 < helmut> nsf: yes. :-) 21:52 < nsf> ah.. there is a note actually 21:52 < nsf> "This concept doesn't cover any means external to the language and program (metaprogramming), such as invoking a compiler or an eval function to create a new function." 21:53 < helmut> nsf: it's the same with int. you cannot magically construct a new int, well actually you can by adding ints for instance. the same can be done with lambdas, by composing. 21:53 * helmut doesn't need eval. 21:53 < nsf> I understand lambda as a function + bits of data 21:53 < nsf> not sure how correct it is 21:53 < helmut> so yes, go functions are first class enough for me. 21:54 -!- boscop [~boscop@g226229023.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:55 < helmut> does go have any concept of macros? 21:55 < nsf> nope 21:55 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g227015012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:55 < nsf> but nothing stops you from using preprocessor 21:55 < KirkMcDonald> Except the torches and pitchforks of your peers. 21:56 < helmut> hehe 21:57 < nsf> although to me, C/C++ experience shows that havind PP hurts.. and D shows that having even very good embedded preprocessing language (aka templates) hurts too 21:57 < nsf> because in order to implement tools for that language you'll have to implement half of the compiler 21:57 < nsf> which isn't really a nice perspective :) 21:57 < nsf> at least to me 21:57 < helmut> nsf: the problem with c/c++ preprocessor is that is not aware of the language. 21:58 < KirkMcDonald> I would describe that as one of the problems. 21:58 < nsf> helmut: it's not the only problem 21:58 < nsf> :D 21:58 < nsf> have you ever seen C/C++ refactoring utilities? 21:58 < nsf> and guess why there are so many java tools out there? 21:58 < helmut> I'm not sure what you might mean. 21:59 < KirkMcDonald> Parsing C++ is *hard*. 21:59 < nsf> things like let you rename an identifier, etc. 21:59 < Rednaxela> It's evident from the compile times of C++ programs 21:59 < Rednaxela> (i.e. compiling KDE vs something in C of similar size) 21:59 < nsf> C is rather slow too 22:00 < Rednaxela> Yeah, though to a lesser extent 22:00 < helmut> well in my opinion a preprocessor should be run on the ast instead of the source. this is what lisp and haskell do with quite some success. 22:01 < nsf> yep, I guess that approach is better 22:01 < nsf> but still, if you have something that is context dependent 22:01 < nsf> and you want to figure out that in a tool or something 22:01 < nsf> you'll have to preprocess 22:02 < nsf> and it is painful 22:02 < nsf> documentation generators (e.g. doxygen) still have bugs in C/C++ part 22:03 < helmut> even better, you can implement your context dependent stuff post-proprocessor on the ast, too. :-) 22:03 < nsf> languages that are 30 and 20 years old 22:03 < nsf> well, I don't know 22:03 < nsf> I'm not a big fan of preprocessing 22:04 < nsf> I think giving a set of containers to a language (or an ability to create them) is a good thing 22:04 < nsf> but it should be really restricted 22:04 -!- scm [justme@d134038.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 22:04 < nsf> because otherwise users will misuse that feature 22:05 < helmut> often enough I have found the syntax too limited to express certain things effectively and the a preprocessor helps in those cases. 22:05 < nsf> I don't think that better expressiveness by adding things improves readability 22:05 < helmut> and in languages like python the lack of a preproc results in a lot of boilerplate 22:06 < nsf> python has 0 problems with that 22:06 < nsf> because it's dynamic 22:06 < nsf> you can do 'eval' and you're done 22:06 < helmut> does't help in all cases. 22:07 < nsf> I don't believe you :) 22:07 < nsf> the only problem with that - it's slow and in order to be fast requires JIT compilation 22:07 < helmut> well you cannot write an expression and then transform it. 22:07 < nsf> why do you need that? 22:07 < helmut> workarounds would be quoting the expression which kills syntax highlighting 22:08 < nsf> I think good look of a code is overrated 22:08 < helmut> hehe 22:08 < nsf> it should be clear and readable 22:08 < nsf> other than than it can be as long as hell 22:09 < nsf> and ugly too 22:09 -!- Shyde [~shyde@HSI-KBW-078-043-070-132.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09 < helmut> for instance implementing callcc in python adds a *lot* of boilerplate 22:09 < nsf> I don't know what callcc means 22:09 < nsf> :( 22:09 < helmut> call-with-current-continuation 22:10 < nsf> omg, and why do you need that? 22:10 < nsf> :) 22:10 < helmut> because python doesn't have coroutines %-) 22:10 < nsf> stackless python has 22:10 < helmut> stackless userbase is too small for my taste 22:11 < nsf> well, EVE Online servers are implemented in stackless python 22:11 < nsf> I think it's rather big 22:11 < nsf> bigger than Go :) 22:11 < helmut> I doubt this relation to be permanent 22:11 < nsf> we'll see, python is slow, it's the sad part 22:12 < nsf> and all efforts to make it fast 22:12 < nsf> doesn't look really good 22:12 < helmut> pypy can produce quite some speed. 22:12 < nsf> I haven't seen an evidence of that 22:12 < KirkMcDonald> The site I work for is almost entirely Python. 22:12 < nsf> I have a plenty of scripts 22:12 < nsf> and pypy runs them slower that python 22:12 < nsf> than cpython* 22:12 -!- InaV [~Ina@cc908229-a.zwoll1.ov.home.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:13 < nsf> than* 22:13 < nsf> ugh.. 22:13 < helmut> if you compile them, they should be faster. 22:13 < jcao219> lol 22:13 < helmut> of course that only works if they are in this rpython subset 22:13 < KirkMcDonald> It will be interesting if Unladen-Swallow manages to actually do what they hope it will. 22:13 < nsf> helmut: yep, they are mostly regexps 22:13 < nsf> so, rpython won't help 22:14 < nsf> I think the main mistake of a pypy 22:14 < nsf> is that it relies on JIT to get a speed up 22:14 < nsf> and leaves interpretator unoptimized 22:14 < nsf> interp runs 2-4x slower than CPython 22:14 < nsf> and it's pretty bad 22:14 < helmut> basically pypy is a compiler for rpython + a python interpreter in rpython. 22:15 < nsf> I know what pypy is :) 22:15 < helmut> the interesting part imho is the compiler 22:15 < nsf> it's not interesting to me 22:15 < nsf> because it's not a general purpose compiler 22:15 < nsf> it's tuned to be used for interp generation purposes 22:16 < nsf> take luajit for example 22:16 < nsf> luajit2 has interpreter that runs 2-4x _faster_ than the native one 22:16 < nsf> plus JIT 22:16 < nsf> that's the speed :) 22:16 < helmut> hehe 22:16 < helmut> well I expect go to be faster than python of course 22:17 < nsf> it is faster 22:17 < nsf> Go should be as fast as Java and C# 22:17 < nsf> in a perspective :) 22:17 < nsf> and maybe even faster 22:18 < nsf> (at least faster than Java for sure) 22:19 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: it is, but progress seems slow: http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/w/list 22:19 < nsf> we know one thing now 22:20 < nsf> it is very hard to make python fast 22:20 < nsf> :) 22:21 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-177-247.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #go-nuts 22:24 -!- InaV [~Ina@cc908229-a.zwoll1.ov.home.nl] has joined #go-nuts 22:25 -!- rlab_ [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38 -!- pigdude 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