--- Log opened Thu Sep 02 00:00:05 2010
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00:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eQcfY by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/pkg/http/
-- http: add PostForm function to post url-encoded key/value data.
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04:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eQBSn by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/test/fixedbugs/ -- test: Recognize gccgo error messages.
04:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eQBSy by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/test/fixedbugs/ -- test: Match gccgo error messages.
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07:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eQVP6 by [Alex Brainman] in go/src/cmd/8l/ --
8l: suppress emitting DWARF in Windows PE.
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09:24 < piyushmishra> Hi everyone I am downloading and installing go to test
it out.  whts this new language about?
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09:27 < jessta> it's about being simple
09:29 < piyushmishra> hmm I am a web developer, can I make web apps from it?
I will be getting a dedicated server next yr so would I be able to use go there?
09:32 < piyushmishra> oh great I just found this
http://github.com/hoisie/web.go
09:32 < piyushmishra> :)
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09:34 < jessta> yep, lots of things for making web apps
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12:03 < nuttyjj> hi there folks
12:04 < nuttyjj> is go programs available for windows as i only see linux
and os-x programs listed on http://golang.org/
12:07 < photron> nuttyjj: the windows port is listed in the wiki
http://code.google.com/p/go/wiki/WindowsPort and the wiki is linked from
http://golang.org/
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12:23 < skejoe> Hi. I have this code: http://www.pasteall.org/15392
12:23 < skejoe> And I get this error: particle.go:55: cannot use np (type
*SimpleParticle) as type *Particle in assignment
12:24 < skejoe> (particle.go:55 is line 23 in paste)
12:24 < skejoe> I don
12:24 < skejoe> Any ideas why?
12:25 < MizardX> skejoe: Change `make([]*Particle, count)` to
`make([]Particle, count)`
12:26 < MizardX> You don't need to use pointers to interface values
12:26 < MizardX> ...  and the appropriate change in the ParticleSystem
structure
12:28 < MizardX> The Particle inteface already matches *SimpleParticle, so
*Particle would be something like **SimpleParticle.
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12:33 < skejoe> MizardX: Ah great!  Thanks.
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14:01 < piyushmishra> I use ubuntu linux i just installed go and its showed
linux/386.  How do I add /home/gotest/go/bin to my $PATH ??
14:02 < chressie> piyushmishra: in bash: export
PATH=$PATH:/home/gotest/go/bin
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14:04 < piyushmishra> do I add that as one line?
14:05 < chressie> you can put it that line in your ~/.bashrc
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14:06 < chressie> for example: echo 'export PATH=$PATH:/home/gotest/go/bin'
>> ~/.bashrc
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16:00 < Esmil> Say I have a slice s []byte and I want to set the first 4
bytes to the (little endian) representation of an int32.  Is there an easy way to
do that?
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16:11 < MaybeSo> Esmil: possibly of interest: setU32LE([]byte, uint32) in
http://golang.org/src/pkg/exp/draw/x11/conn.go
16:13 < Esmil> MaybeSo: Ahh yes, thank you.  That's sort of what I've done
so far.  I just hoped there was something simpler, since it is really just a
memcpy
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16:41 < madari> hmmm..  is type switching expensive?
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16:44 < MaybeSo> madari: this thread was pretty recent and indicates it is
cheap:
http://groups.google.vu/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/855849003c487044
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16:54 < madari> MaybeSo: thank you
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17:11 < nsf> http://nsf.github.com/images/goview.swf <- shows upcoming
gocode features, basically gocode will be able to track semantic information about
each identifier in the code and do smart things with it (like renaming, etc.)
17:11 < nsf> :P
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seconds]
17:15 < nsf> and on this screencast I wrote a simple app that highlights
separate entities of that semantic map thing, for example variable 'f' in a
function will not get confused with variable 'f' in another function or in a
global scope, etc.
17:17 < exch> nice
17:17 < madari> nsf: you're awesome
17:18 < nsf> and mainly I'm targetting renaming feature, but who knows what
else you can do with that
17:18 < nsf> targeting*
17:18 < nsf> madari: :D
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17:21 * exch works on his web ui app framework thingy for Go
17:21 < nsf> hehe, nice, but it will use javascript for the front end,
right?
17:21 < exch> yes
17:21 * nsf wants to get rid of javascript
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17:22 < nsf> hopefully things like nativeclient will make that moment closer
17:22 < exch> I cba to deal with libs like gtk or QT. the only way to get at
least similar behaviour is stuff like jquery :)
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17:23 < exch> the Go part is just the backend/server of the app.  It
functions like a standalone webservice of sorts
17:23 < nsf> I see
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17:26 < exch> The webui builder does a bit more though.  It auto-generates
most of the browser content and compresses/packs it all into the most efficient
form possible.  for javascript that means all .js files merged into 1 and removing
all whitespace + changing long function/var names into short ones.  Sort of an
obfuscation thing.  Same for css files.  And any images that are used are packed
into a single image file using some clever computational origami tricks
17:27 < nsf> interesting
17:27 < nsf> so you can write web apps without knowing js?
17:27 < nsf> or it's not true?  :)
17:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRMAG by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ -- go
spec clarification: arrays must be addressable to be sliceable
17:28 < exch> ideally, it would be nice to have a go -> js translator so
that becomes possible.
17:28 < nsf> well it's impossible
17:28 < nsf> but you can implement a translator for the subset of go
17:28 < nsf> at least
17:28 < exch> I suppose I could add that, so you don't even have to touch js
at all
17:32 < exch> I have no idea how practical this will turn out to be.  I'm
just kinda making it up as I go along :p
17:33 < nsf> the same for gocode :)
17:33 < nsf> but I do a lot of refactorings because of that :(
17:33 < nsf> hopefully soon I will have tools to do that more quickly
17:33 < nsf> :D
17:33 < exch> hence the renaming app?  :)
17:33 < nsf> no, I haven't renamed any app
17:34 < nsf> goview is a demo app, just to show the features of gocode :)
17:34 < exch> ah
17:34 < nsf> evetually renaming will be integrated in the vim as ususal
17:34 < nsf> usual*
17:35 < nsf> I mean renaming feature of the gocode
17:35 < exch> mm I just realized that another benefit of the web-ui approach
is the ability to run the app on a public IP, effectively making the application a
distributed tool.  Run it on a server and you can (theoretically) use it anywhere
you have a browser
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17:35 < nsf> hehe
17:35 < nsf> true
17:35 < nickaugust> can a function return a map by value or just by pointer?
17:35 < nsf> nickaugust: map is a pointer
17:35 < exch> maps and slices are always references to the underlying
datastructure
17:36 < nsf> it just doesn't look like one
17:36 < nickaugust> ok thanks
17:36 < nsf> sizeof(map type) == 4
17:36 < nsf> it's really a pointer
17:36 < nsf> sizeof(slice type) == 12
17:36 < nsf> pointer to data + len + capacity
17:37 < nickaugust> so how do i declare my function?  im trying to do this
func Index(model string, key string, fields []string) index map [string] string {
17:37 < nickaugust> but that return section obviously isnt right
17:37 < nsf> if you want to name the return value
17:37 < nsf> you should do that this way:
17:37 < nsf> func Index(model string, key string, fields []string) (index
map [string] string) {
17:39 < nickaugust> oh i forgot the () :/
17:39 < nickaugust> thanks man
17:40 < nickaugust> oh wait thats not what i meant..  i meant:
17:41 < nickaugust> func Index(model struct, key string, fields []string)
(index map [string] string) {
17:41 < exch> btw, sizeof(pointertype) is 8 on 64 bit systems
17:41 < nickaugust> and the error is index.go:9: syntax error: unexpected
comma, expecting {
17:41 < nickaugust> can i not pass a struct like that?
17:41 < nickaugust> i assumed it was the map part throwing the error
17:42 < exch> 'struct' is not a valid type name I think
17:42 < nsf> exch: yep
17:42 < nickaugust> see..  i was trying to pass it as an interface
17:42 < nickaugust> then use the reflect package to work with it as a struct
17:43 < exch> then declare the parameter as 'model interface{}'
17:43 < nickaugust> hmm..  so i cant pass a struct like that?
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17:44 < nickaugust> exch: then i was trying to do model.(reflect.StructType)
but it didnt like that because i have methods attached to the struct
17:44 < nickaugust> "index.go:25: impossible type assertion: model (type
Indexable) cannot have dynamic type reflect.StructType (missing ShowDirectoryName
method)"
17:45 < nickaugust> because if i pass it as an interface i cant access the
properties of the struct without a type assertion
17:45 < nickaugust> nsf we kinda talked about this the other day
17:45 < exch> you can with the reflect package
17:45 < exch> it's a hassle though
17:46 < nickaugust> yeah...  so if my struct has methods attached to it
should it be accessed as model.(reflect.ComplexType)?  i havent found much
documentation on taht
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17:50 < exch> To get references to specific methods, you don't need to cast
it to a StructValue if I remember correctly.
17:50 < exch> a simple reflect.Type instance has Method(int) and NumMethod()
functions you can use to access an object's methods
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17:51 < niemeyer> Yeah, which mostly work, except in the case of bug #451,
which is freaking old and I can't get anyone to fix it.
17:52 < nickaugust> ok let me spell out what im trying to do..  maybe im
going about it wrong.  im tyring to index a bunch of json files.  each 'type' of
file has a model struct, directory, for example contacts/, and an index file
(contacts.index).  so what i want to do is have a function Index() that takes
three options (model struct, key sting, fields []string).  it looks at
model.ShowDirectoryName() and indexes all
17:52 < nickaugust> the fields in fields []string by key string.  then
returns the index as a map.
17:52 < niemeyer> I'll end up digging in and fixing it myself, but it's a
bit frustrating that such obvious bugs are staying alive for so long.
17:53 < exch> nickaugust: why don't you just pass model as the type that has
the ShowDirectoryName() then?
17:54 < nickaugust> so i was going to pass model as an interface{} instead
of a struct then use the reflect package to do the type assertion
(reflect.StructType)..  but it wont take it since i have additional methods on the
model type
17:54 < nickaugust> exch: the interface{} you mean?
17:54 < nickaugust> exch: or the &contact struct
17:56 < nickaugust> i want it to work for different struct types
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17:56 < exch> does 'model' define that particular method?  You posted
earlier that it is of type Indexable..  so why not define the parameter as 'model
Indexable'?
17:57 < exch> It's easier to define an interface for it then, that exposes
the appropriate methods you want access to.  All the structs will have to
implement them though
17:57 < nickaugust> Indexable is the interface...  that has the methods
ShowDirectoryName() and ShowIndexFileName()
17:57 < exch> that should work then
17:57 < nickaugust> which is fine..  but then to do the type assertion i
need to know ahead of time what type it is
17:58 < exch> why?  you can just call model.ShowDirectoryName()
17:58 < nickaugust> to access the fields of that struct
17:58 < nickaugust> so i end up doing this thing
17:58 < nickaugust> switch tt := model.(type) {
17:59 < exch> ah, you need field access.  Either expose thse fields through
interface methods, or you're stuck with that type switch
17:59 < nickaugust> but then ive got to know the acceptable types before
hand so i can do the case *Contact
17:59 < nickaugust> yeah...
17:59 < nickaugust> but the different types, say Contact, Location, ect dont
have the the same field names
18:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRPpd by [Scott Lawrence] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- goinstall: added -a flag to mean "all remote packages"
18:00 < exch> I that case I would really go for separate Index()
implementations for each of the possible struct types
18:00 < exch> it's just too much of a hassle to generalize that
18:00 < nickaugust> so that led me to the reflect package...  which ive only
been working with for an hour or so but im not sure how i feel about it so far
18:01 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Feels bad..  if you need to access the fields,
then a) Don't use the interface, or b) Expose the fields through the interface
18:02 < niemeyer> nickaugust: reflect is useful mostly when you're doing
meta-programming..  your case feels like a matter of organization only
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18:02 < exch> so far reflect has only been necessary for me in my script VM
18:03 < nickaugust> what do you mean by meta-programming?  i want to just
define my data models and have my indexes for that model created dynamically
18:03 < nickaugust> do you think its possible with the reflect package?
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18:04 < exch> possible, yes.  But probably not very efficient.  Have a
single general Index() function that takes model as an interface{}.  Use a type
switch to see which specific struct you got and then delegate to a IndexContact()
or IndexLocation() function
18:05 < exch> a lot faster and a lot less hassle :)
18:06 < nickaugust> yeah thats how i do it now..  but then every time i add
a new data model i have to copy and past the IndexXType() funciton and just
s/search/replace the names..  .seems silly
18:06 < nickaugust> they all take the model, key, and fields arguments
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18:08 < nickaugust> im going to try the reflect package using the struct
without the interface methods and add the directory as a field of the struct
rather than a method and see where that gets me
18:08 < nickaugust> maybe a __directory__ field...  or is that too pythony?
;)
18:09 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Seems silly, and pretty weird actually
18:10 < nickaugust> heh i agree
18:10 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Why do you have several types with the same
fields and the same methods?
18:10 < nickaugust> different fields same methods
18:10 < niemeyer> nickaugust: If they are different fields, then you're not
simply search/replacing
18:10 < nickaugust> the methods are only ShowDirectoryName() and
ShowIndexFile()
18:10 < niemeyer> nickaugust: and you need independent logic for each one of
them
18:11 < nickaugust> the field names are passed as arguments
18:11 < nickaugust> no..  its all just take a list of fields and index them
18:12 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Yeah, seems like a weird approach to me indeed
18:12 < nickaugust> i know if i pass &contact i want to index contact.name
and contact.company
18:13 < nickaugust> the point is i want to make the code reusable for future
data models
18:13 < nickaugust> i know it seems wierd...  im not really sure its going
to work.
18:14 < niemeyer> nickaugust: You're having difficulties because you're
passing field information into the function.  Rather than trying to abstract the
access to that information, you're pushing in knowledge that the function can't
handle without introspection.
18:14 < niemeyer> nickaugust: It may work, I'd just not do it that way.
18:15 < nickaugust> niemeyer: how else would the index function konw what
fields i want to index?
18:15 < nickaugust> if i dont pass them
18:16 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Why does it have to know the *fields*?
18:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRQwh by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
fix spurious syntax error
18:16 < nickaugust> because each struct has a number of different fields..
not all of which should be indexed
18:17 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Yes, and who knows which fields should be
indexed?
18:17 < nickaugust> me
18:17 < niemeyer> nickaugust: That's a good start for sure.  Where is that
information encoded in your code?
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18:18 * exch is confus
18:18 < nickaugust> niemeyer: hadnt really thought it out that far to be
honest
18:18 < nickaugust> probably broken out somewhere though
18:19 < nickaugust> not sure how the file structure will look..  but
basically i want to define my data models in a separate file and then some how
designate which should be indexed
18:20 < niemeyer> nickaugust: Yes, someone will have to tell Index which
fields must be indexed, and that someone probably sits within the implementation
of these types necessarily, and have access to the fields.
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18:21 < niemeyer> nickaugust: So don't pass field names to a generic
function, or you're unnecessarily delegating access to a generic function, thus
creating a problem that you shouldn't have in the first place.
18:21 < nickaugust> niemeyer: thats an interesting point.  let me mull that
over for a bit.
18:22 < nickaugust> because the index functions will be broken out anyway
18:22 < niemeyer> Right
18:22 < nickaugust> brb
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18:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRS2i by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/ --
runtime: add GOOS, GOARCH; fix FuncLine
18:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRS2n by [Russ Cox] in 3 subdirs of go/ --
build: create bin and pkg directories as needed; drop from hg
18:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRS2S by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/http/ --
http: add Date to server, Last-Modified and If-Modified-Since to file server
18:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRS3b by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/time/ --
time: do not crash in String on nil Time
18:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRS3w by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/exp/iterable/ -- exp/iterables: fix typo
18:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRS3Q by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
appease bison version running on FreeBSD builder
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18:56 < exch> ugh.  Microsoft has managed to obtain a patent on 'shutting
down a operating system'.  And it exlpicitely mentions the applicability to linux
and OSX in it
18:56 < exch>
http://www.conceivablytech.com/2530/products/microsoft-patents-operating-system-shutdown/
18:59 < nickaugust> they should have patented needless restarts
19:00 < Rennex> :D
19:00 < niemeyer> Excellent.  The more ridiculous patents successfully
obtained, the more it is clear that it's a broken system.
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20:52 < dacc> how do goroutines compare to asynchronous IO as a way to do
things concurrently?
20:52 < dacc> besides being truly parallel i suppose
20:56 < nbjoerg> if you mean "non-blocking IO with multiplexing": it tends
to be much simpler as a programming model
20:56 < nbjoerg> note that the socket abstraction is (IIRC) non-blocking
internally
20:56 < dacc> ah sorry, that's what i meant
20:57 < nbjoerg> and non-blocking IO is not really a model for concurrent
programming
20:57 < dacc> ..  but for event driven programming, which isn't considered
concurrent?
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21:01 < nbjoerg> one of the core ideas why non-blocking IO is thought to be
faster than threading is that it avoids expensive serialisation
21:01 < nbjoerg> by not being concurrent in first place
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21:02 < dacc> ah ok
21:02 < nbjoerg> due to its nature, Go can kill most of the need for
non-blocking IO
21:03 < nbjoerg> if you were willing to bump up gomaxproc and changed a few
low level parts
21:03 < dacc> i guess that's what i'm trying to understand
21:03 < nbjoerg> the second reason people use event driven programming is
because the classic thread libraries waste huge amounts of address space
21:03 < nbjoerg> which (at least for 32bit systems) is a killer
21:04 < nbjoerg> segmented stacks avoid the issue
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21:15 < nsf> I can say one thing for sure
21:15 < nsf> goroutines are much more simpler
21:15 < nsf> than any kind of library for event-based programming
21:16 < nsf> be it libev, libevent, glib or direct kernel stuff usage
(select, epoll, linux's timerfd, etc.)
21:16 < nsf> in go few goroutines, channels and select statement solve all
the problems :)
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21:17 < nsf> maybe not as fast though
21:17 < nsf> I mean the performance isn't as fast
21:17 < dacc> *nod*
21:18 < nsf> but who cares :)
21:18 < dacc> also it seems like you can take advantage of more cores
easily, whereas event-based stuff is more single process, ya?
21:18 < Namegduf> I don't think goroutines replace mutexes with high
contention and lots of little locks without huge performance degredation
21:19 < Namegduf> But the beauty is that you can then optimise by switching
to a mutex for that thing while keeping everything that can be concurrent,
concurrent.
21:19 < nsf> Namegduf: it's true, but the resulting code looks much simpler
21:20 < Namegduf> nsf: By massive, I mean "it isn't even using one core
completely because it is spending all its time switching goroutines"
21:20 < nsf> it depends
21:20 < Namegduf> nsf: I don't think they're a be-all and end all, but
they're very nice.  They beat select/epoll easily.
21:20 < nsf> but for most apps you're right
21:25 < nsf> also sometimes I think that goroutines are too easy to use (and
therefore to misuse)
21:25 < nsf> as well as channels
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21:25 < nsf> both come in one pack
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21:28 < Namegduf> What I did originally was create types whose methods
secretly sent a message to a goroutine for that instance/package
21:28 < Namegduf> Which did the job
21:29 < Namegduf> In order to implement them as concurrency safe (the
situation calls for concurrency safety)
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21:29 < Namegduf> What I'm realising is going to be a huge optimisation is
using a mutex there instead, because most of the operations are very short.
21:30 < nsf> yep
21:31 < nsf> but I think channels will eventually be implemented as lockless
queues or something
21:31 < nsf> Java has a lot of experience dealing with that kind of issues
21:32 < nsf> (e.g.  implementing primitives for highly parallel systems)
21:33 < nsf> but yeah currently and probably always
21:33 < nsf> using mutex in simple cases will be faster
21:34 < nsf> I'm looking at chan.c right now
21:34 < nsf> it has lots of stuff there :)
21:36 < nbjoerg> I had to start dealing with that for the NetBSD port
21:36 < nbjoerg> because the low level kernel primitives work quite
different from Linux's futex
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21:39 * nsf isn't familiar with NetBSD at all
21:40 < nbjoerg> the netbsd approach is lwp centric, not pointer centric
21:40 < nsf> :)
21:41 < nbjoerg> e.g.  waking up a waiter is done by explicitly telling the
lwp id
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21:42 < nbjoerg> so I essentially have a non-locking stack of waiters for
lock/unlock
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21:42 < nsf> I see
21:43 < nbjoerg> lockless queues are a lot more nasty to implement if you
can't limit the queue size
21:45 * nsf will leave to guys who know what they're doing :)
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23:13 < nsf> um..  I have an interface dilemma, what's better?  a) implement
renaming completely on the server side, 'gocode rename' won't return anything,
editor will have to reload changed files
23:13 < nsf> b) return the list of things which are subject of renaming and
let editor do the stuff
23:14 < nsf> cons for a: editor will display ugly "files is changed do you
want me to reload" message
23:14 < nsf> pros for a: don't need to do anything in editor's script
language
23:14 < nsf> cons for b: need to implement that stuff in vim script and in
emacs script etc..  for each editor
23:15 < nsf> pros for b: renaming process can be presented nicely to a user
23:15 < nsf> :\
23:16 * nsf is not able to decide
23:17 < dacc> as someone not doing the work, i vote "b" =P
23:17 < nsf> well, I think it's better too, but currently it's like 51% vs.
49% :)
23:18 < nsf> I guess in long term (b) is better
23:18 < nsf> thanks :D
23:19 < dacc> i guess just factor as much of the code out of the
editor-specific env as possible and be able to do both(?) =)
23:21 < nsf> I'm more concerned about an ability to present things nicely to
the user (aka good GUI)
23:21 < nsf> and apparently the editor is the side which can do that
23:21 < nsf> or can't (like in 'vim' case :D)
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23:23 < nsf> I'll definitely do (b)
23:23 < nsf> also, another question
23:24 < nsf> but more like a techincal one
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23:24 < nsf> should I allow user to rename methods and fields and types
which come from an imported package?
23:24 < nsf> it's a hard choice because:
23:25 < nsf> a) it's nice to have if someone changes an interface of his
library, but
23:25 < nsf> b) semantic layer does precise inference of all objects in the
code, and once you've renamed something like that, it will not be possible to
infer all objects correctly again
23:25 < nsf> the correct update process will look that way:
23:26 < nsf> 1.  download old library package (.a file)
23:26 < nsf> 2.  rename things
23:26 < nsf> 3.  install new package
23:26 < nsf> which is kind of ugly
23:26 < nsf> so..  I think disallowing renaming of foreign entities is a
good idea
23:27 < nsf> or not..
23:27 < nsf> :D
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23:28 < nsf> well, techinally I guess it is possible to do
23:28 < nsf> by mainaining some kind of a list of changes
23:28 < nsf> and after these changes infer all objects using that
information
23:28 < nsf> but..
23:29 < nsf> :(
23:29 < nsf> hard decision
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23:35 < nsf> uh..  now let's see how it is possible to present that renaming
stuff in vim to the end user
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 03 00:00:05 2010