--- Log opened Mon Oct 04 00:00:00 2010
--- Day changed Mon Oct 04 2010
00:00 < exch> And then just do some guess work as to which one to use.  Easy
enough if there's only one ethernet card.  For multiple interfaces, I'll just add
an option to have the user explicitly specify which interface to use
00:00 < Rennex> well, that'll probably work for hostnames that do resolve to
multiple addresses, but again it's probably a dead end because the own hostname
typically just points to loopback
00:00 < exch> fair enough
00:00 < Rennex> you do know that for listening sockets 0.0.0.0 listens on
all of them, right?  :)
00:01 < Rennex> all interfaces i mean
00:01 < exch> yea I do.  But I need the actual address
00:01 < exch> Or find a different way to deal with NAT client resolution
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00:06 < Rennex> seems to me that finding out the IPs of the interfaces is
platform-dependent
00:06 < exch> yup
00:07 < Rennex> and often missing in other multiplatform languages too :)
00:19 < exch> mm I could use the hostname itself.  Not sure how reliable
that is though.  It doesnt have to be unique within a lan network
00:19 < exch> In essence, I need a way to identify the source of UDP packets
coming from potentially multiple clients behind the same public IP.
00:20 < exch> the port number can not be used, because some NAT routers
randomly reassign those (UDP is connectionless, so this is perfectly acceptable
behaviour)
00:21 < exch> My original plan was to use the least significant 2 bytes of
the local LAN IP. eg '192.168.2.102' -> 2 and 102
00:21 < exch> But that requires me to actually know what it is :)
00:22 < exch> A simple 'random' session key embedded in the UDP packets is
another option, but that adds a considerable amount of overhead
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00:43 < Tv> exch: listen on 0.0.0.0 and ask for the address of that?
00:43 < Tv> exch: i happily use netchan.NewExporter("tcp", "0.0.0.0:0") and
pass the .Addr() of that to others
00:44 < exch> hmm.  I'll give that a try
00:44 < Rennex> exch: hmm, afaik if you connect() a udp socket to some ip,
the socket's own address will be one that would be used to send packets to that
network
00:44 < Tv> yeah
00:45 < exch> the .Addr() yields only 1 address though.  Will that always be
the non-loopback one?
00:46 < exch> provided it's available ofcourse
00:46 < Tv> exch: Go has no influence on that, so you're at the OS's mercy
00:49 < exch> hmm.  conn.LocalAddr() yields "[::]:1234" That's not very
helpful
00:49 < Tv> exch: what are you connecting *to*?
00:50 < exch> UDP doesn't connect to anything.  There's just a socket
listening for incoming data
00:50 < Tv> you *can* connect one
00:50 < Tv> it acts as a default destination
00:51 < Soultaker> it also filters incoming traffic iirc?
00:51 < Tv> basically, the OS is saying it's not picking a source address
until you connect somewhere
00:51 < exch> hm
00:51 < Tv> btw i realized my earlier netchan .Addr mention isn't valid;
i've only done it on one machine :(
00:52 < exch> ah now this is better.  ListenUDP() doesnt yield anything
useful.  DialUDP() to some remote server does
00:53 < exch> conn.LocalAddr() = "192.168.2.101:58614"
00:53 < exch> nice, thanks
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01:15 < scyth> is it possible to convert int to []byte and vice versa?
01:15 < exch> scyth: either use the encoding/binary package, or do it
manually with some bitfiddling
01:20 < scyth> exch, encoding/binary will do it, thanks
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04:07 < plexdev> http://is.gd/fJqZr by [Alex Brainman] in go/ -- add
_testmain.go to .hgignore
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06:41 < plexdev> http://is.gd/fJD20 by [Alex Brainman] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- os: make tests work on windows
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07:23 < ucasano> hi
07:23 < ucasano> I am trying to compile a go program
07:24 < ucasano> friday it worked fine
07:24 < ucasano> today, after go upgrade in the weekend
07:24 < ucasano> it is not working anymore
07:24 < ucasano> I always get the following:
07:24 < ucasano> Makefile:1: /Users/giovanni/go/src/Make.386: No such file
or directory
07:24 < ucasano> any ideas?
07:25 < ucasano> Make.386 does not exist in go/src tree
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10:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/fJT7b by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ -- fmt:
allow %d on []byte
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14:08 < adg> ucasano: you need to update those makefiles
14:09 < ucasano> hi, I already did it
14:09 < ucasano> now everything works fine
14:09 < ucasano> thanks
14:09 < ucasano> but I saw many go modules (i.e.  gomysql from github)
14:09 < adg> ood :)
14:10 < ucasano> do not changed makefiles, yet :(
14:10 < adg> old unmaintained stuff is broken
14:10 < adg> go-musql-client-library is up to date
14:11 < adg> and looks like a good implementation
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15:09 < scyth> in an event driven server app, would it be faster to have
dedicated goroutine which loops on read from channel of type *DataFrame (which
holds connection details too) and on each read to do the actual write on
connection, or is it faster to call writeData(*DataFrame) which does
lock()/unlock() on connection resource?
15:12 < exch> Channels are not very fast unfortunately.  I faced the same
choice yesterday in my UDP network lib.  It used some goroutines and channels to
pass incoming data round.  After I changed it to just pass the data to a function
directly with appropriate locking, the performance increased considerably
15:13 < exch> performance, in this case, meaning the amount of UDP packets
it was able to process and send out per second
15:14 < scyth> yeah, that was my concern too, as I'm not familiar with low
level channel implementation, but I figured..  it doesn't come in a natural way
15:16 < exch> It's a shame really.  channels are a nice way to represent
'safe' cross-thread communication, but their performance (or lack thereof) doesn't
motivate me to use them :<
15:17 < scyth> yeah..  I love the idea too...  and I would definitely use
them wherever performance is not critical point
15:17 < exch> yea
15:17 < exch> Unfortunatly it is in a game oriented network library
15:17 < exch> low latency > everything else
15:18 < nsf> Go won't work for games until it will have low latency GC :)
15:18 < nsf> it has*
15:18 < nsf> :(
15:18 < exch> that's the next point, but not something I can fix myself :p
15:18 < exch> In the meantime I can make sure my end of the work is as fast
as it can be :)
15:18 < nsf> hopefully it won't take as long as it took for mono
15:19 < nsf> mono 2.8 will finally contain their new GC
15:19 < nsf> :P
15:19 < scyth> what's GC?:)
15:19 < exch> garbage collector
15:19 < nsf> they've started designing it in 2005 or something
15:19 < exch> lol
15:19 < exch> that's pretty poor
15:19 < scyth> :))
15:19 < nsf> sadly, yes
15:20 < exch> Granted though, I have no idea what kind of blakc magick and
trickery is needed to write a reliable and fast GC. It might just be that
difficult to do :p
15:20 < exch> s/kc/ck
15:21 < nsf> well, it's the same level of hackery that is required to do
other things for go like goroutines and growable stacks
15:21 < nsf> although, maybe I'm wrong
15:22 < exch> As far as I understand the issue, there's also a significant
difference between a good GC and a good concurrent GC
15:22 < nbjoerg> writing a good GC is very hard work
15:22 < nsf> true
15:22 < nsf> true for hard work and for good concurrent gc
15:22 < nbjoerg> and writing concurrent GCs is even harder
15:22 < nbjoerg> especially if you want to allow dealing with a mixed
language envrionment
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15:25 < nsf> I don't like the fact that if you have a garbage collected
language you have to live with GC implementation it has
15:25 < nsf> of course I can do manual memory management with Go
15:25 < nsf> but in that case I can't use any libraries
15:25 < nsf> which is not good :)
15:25 < exch> You might as well use C then ;)
15:25 < nsf> true
15:26 < nsf> but Go has other advantages over C other than GC
15:26 < exch> true
15:27 < nsf> in C you're basically forced to write things like
LLVMPassManagerMakeMeHappy(passmanager, ...);
15:27 < nsf> it's not fun :D
15:27 < nsf> I thought it's good because source code is grep friendly
15:27 < nsf> but it turns out that methods can be nice too
15:28 < nsf> if there are no type hierarchies and overloading
15:30 < nsf> basically I want a language like that :D without all the
experimental or costly stuff (goroutines, channels, GC, interface -> interface
conversions), but with all other good stuff :D
15:30 < nbjoerg> what makes you think that GC is more expensive than the
altneriatves?
15:30 < nsf> a lack of good implementation
15:31 < nbjoerg> well, you could sit down and hook up boehm-gc if you want
15:31 < nsf> I don't believe that it's much better than simple M&S GC
15:31 < nbjoerg> it is the reference implementation of a good M&S
15:32 < nbjoerg> as opposed to a simple one
15:32 < nsf> the problem is, that it still has the latency issue
15:32 < nsf> and it doesn't work for realtime graphics
15:33 < nbjoerg> it's not like manual memory management is without issues
15:33 < nsf> of course
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15:33 < nbjoerg> the 90% solution is RC of course
15:33 < nsf> I agree :)
15:35 < nsf> Go is nice because it also allows you to mix those
15:35 < nsf> the problem is that low level language for Go is still C
15:35 < nsf> C is nice, but it is possible to make a better version of it
15:35 < nsf> imho
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15:36 < nsf> at least fix the obvious issues like grammar, preprocessor as a
part of the language
15:36 < nsf> add module system :)
15:36 < nbjoerg> the C interface is primarily needed because Go still lacks
a proper compiler
15:36 < nbjoerg> and I don't think even gcc-go really falls into that
category
15:37 < nbjoerg> the preprocessor is one of the biggest items in C
15:37 < nbjoerg> it would be unusable without
15:37 < nsf> but what do we have other than C? C++?  D?
15:37 < scyth> java :D
15:37 < nsf> they can't really fullfil a need for a good low level language
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15:40 < nsf> anyway, I think that kind of thing (a fix-C-issues language) is
pretty much obvious, someone just should Go for it :D personally I don't feel like
I can handle it
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15:41 < exch> I'm guessing that many have already tried.  C has been around
for a while after all
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15:41 < exch> Since we're still stuck with C/C++, I guess it was more
difficult than first anticipated :p
15:41 < nsf> yes, but for some reason most people are trying to add new
features on top of C also
15:41 < nsf> like take a look at Java, D, C++, C#
15:42 < nsf> I think the Java is the simplest language of all these
15:42 < scyth> I disagree...  C should not be *fixed.  It's just impossible
15:42 < nsf> I'm not saying that C should be fixed
15:42 < nsf> I'm talking about the language which has all C issues fixed
15:42 < nsf> at least obvious ones
15:42 < nsf> and what is more important
15:42 < nsf> without any new features
15:43 < scyth> nsf, like what?
15:43 < nsf> preprocessor, grammar issues
15:43 < nbjoerg> .oO(why do people believe that the preprocessor is a flaw?)
15:43 < scyth> that's not really that much of a codestopper
15:44 < nsf> nbjoerg: maybe it's not a big issue, but the combination of
both is definitely
15:44 < exch> 'fixing issues' is a bit ambiguous though.  Whre does
something stop being a fix and starts being a new feature?  I'm sure some people
would argue that lack of 'OO' in C was also an issue that was 'fixed' with c++
15:44 < nbjoerg> exch: issues with manual memory management vs GC
15:45 < nsf> well, that's the problem
15:45 < Namegduf> The preprocessor is a flaw because it lets you make code
whose semantics don't match the languages.
15:45 < nbjoerg> exch: difficulty of correct concurrent programming vs
providing new primitives
15:45 < nsf> we need someone who knows what to fix :D
15:45 < scyth> nbjoerg, that's one thing that must not be touched if we want
it to stay low level
15:45 < Namegduf> Or, rather, that's one argument against.
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15:45 < nsf> in fact imho Go is very close to that
15:45 < nbjoerg> Namegduf: actually, with C99 the output has to be a valid
token stream
15:45 < nsf> at least to my idea of a perfect low level language
15:46 < Namegduf> nbjoerg: The output is largely irrelevant.
15:46 < nbjoerg> there is no perfect low level langauge
15:46 < nbjoerg> Namegduf: output of the preprocessor, I mean
15:46 < Namegduf> nbjoerg: Yeah, but the problem I named was with the input.
15:46 < Namegduf> You can make code which doesn't at all match the
language's actual rules because the preprocessor is doing odd things.
15:47 < nsf> nbjoerg: have you tried to make a tool for a C language?  like
autocompletion or semantic preserving renaming or even a documentation generator
15:47 < nbjoerg> Namegduf: you would castrate it enough to make it useless
if you insist that preprocessor input is valid C
15:47 < nsf> it is not trivial with preprocessor
15:47 < Namegduf> nbjoerg: Precisely why I said preprocessors in general had
that as a flaw, not preprocessors whose input is invalid C.
15:47 < nbjoerg> nsf: sure, it isn't
15:47 < nsf> because one can compile a source code with -D flag and it can
change the whole meaning of the source code
15:47 < nbjoerg> see above, that's why it is useful
15:48 < nbjoerg> and that's what it is used for in the real world too
15:48 < Namegduf> It seems to me like it'd be better to solve the problems
the preprocessor solves directly rather than through a glorified compiletime find
and replace (or that plus much more complex rules)
15:49 < nbjoerg> if you remove the preprocessor's capabilities, you easily
end up with things like Go's runtime module
15:49 < nbjoerg> which is a lot of copy&paste between Linux and FreeBSD for
example
15:50 < nsf> true
15:50 < Namegduf> If they liked they could just split the files better, I
think.
15:50 < nsf> but preprocessor isn't a good solution for that
15:50 < Namegduf> A preprocessor also adds to the complexity of the language
the preprocessor's own language, so if you consider complexity to be a bad thing.
15:50 < Namegduf> It at the least has a whole bunch of costs for the gain it
provides, and that's why people sometimes dislike it.
15:50 < Namegduf> I'm not arguing it doesn't provide useful things
sometimes.
15:51 < Namegduf> I think you could probably achieve that with a much more
minimalistic, much more obvious preprocessor (like, say, just #ifdef and #endif),
though, or through totally different methods.
15:51 < nbjoerg> the C preprocessor adds a lot less issues for tools than
e.g.  C++ templates :)
15:51 < nsf> I like to use pp for trash coding: #define DEF_E(tt) struct
expr *e = malloc(sizeof(struct expr)); e->type = tt
15:51 < nsf> :P
15:52 < nbjoerg> some issues of it can be solved a lot better, *cough*
modules
15:52 < nsf> I like D's module system
15:52 < nsf> Go's too
15:53 < nsf> but D's kind of more featureful :)
15:53 < Namegduf> I don't want to go back to a language whose specification
I can't read through and understand properly in an afternoon.
15:53 < Namegduf> (Of course, I have to, but that's life)
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17:20 < scyth> any info on when (*TCPListener) File() will be out there?  --
to export fd
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18:44 < uriel> 15:43 < nbjoerg> .oO(why do people believe that the
preprocessor is a flaw?)
18:44 < uriel> nbjoerg: because it is
18:45 < uriel> nbjoerg: ask dmr himself, and he will tell you it was a big
mistake
18:45 < uriel> I think I have heard rob call the c preprocessor one of the
most costly mistakes in the history of software
18:47 < uriel> 15:35 < nsf> the problem is that low level language for
Go is still C
18:47 < uriel> nsf: wtf does that mean?
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18:48 < nsf> I mean if you want to write something without using GC and
still have access to some kind of libraries
18:48 < nsf> for Go, you have to use C, more or less
18:48 < nsf> certainly
18:49 < nsf> makes sense?  :)
18:50 < nsf> runtime for Go is written in C
18:52 < uriel> nsf: there is nothing that says the Go runtime must be in C
18:52 < KirkMcDonald> C is a useful FFI.
18:52 < nsf> but Go devs use C for some reason
18:52 < uriel> iant has mentioned a few times that it will likely get
rewriten in Go
18:52 < KirkMcDonald> Everything speaks C, more or less.
18:53 < uriel> nsf: it would have made no sense to use anything else for
bootstrapping
18:53 < uriel> also, it is not quite 'C', it is ken's C
18:53 < nbjoerg> it's not C
18:53 < uriel> there is a reason there are a set of C compilers as part of
the Go toolchain
18:53 < KirkMcDonald> (Now if only they could work out the whole callback
issues...)
18:53 < nbjoerg> and the difference (especially the ABI difference) is
annoying enough
18:53 < nsf> uriel: I don't think that runtime will be rewritten in Go
18:54 < uriel> but again, eventually it is quite likely that the whole thing
will be pure Go, it is just a matter of time, and it helps bootstrapping things if
one builds the toolchain and runtime with a language that is not changing every
week
18:54 < uriel> nsf: why not?  again, iant has suggested that is likely to
happen eventually, and would make very much sense
18:54 < nsf> we'll see
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18:55 < uriel> we will see, but I certainly can't see any reason why that
can't be done, once the language is stable enough
18:55 < nsf> libraries
18:56 < nsf> :)
18:56 < uriel> ?
18:56 < nsf> Go's libraries depend on GC
18:56 < nsf> well, maybe I'm wrong
18:56 < nsf> nevermind
18:57 < uriel> ??
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19:13 < skelterjohn> the question of writing the runtime in go or not is
independent of the question of whether or not go can interface to C libraries via
GV
19:13 < skelterjohn> GV = GC
19:14 < skelterjohn> the runtime is, in the end, a binary.  the language it
began as can change
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19:39 < dahankzter> Isn't the pattern for a Makefile i go, to include
Make.${GOARCH}?
19:39 < dahankzter> If so I am just curious as to where it is?  I have not
got any such file
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19:58 < dahankzter> works better(?) using Make.inc
19:58 < dahankzter> hmmm
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19:59 < wjlroe> Hi, how can you use tls.Dial or similar and tell it to not
verify the server's cert?
20:13 < wjlroe> never mind
20:13 < wjlroe> tls.Dial apears to not use the RootCAs
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20:40 < scyth> when sending strings over network from a go app acting as a
client, does receiving server needs to understand unicode?  I don't get this
part..  can someone explain?
20:42 < skelterjohn> typically when you send something over the network, you
send a []byte
20:42 < skelterjohn> try examining what you get when you turn a string into
a []byte
20:42 < skelterjohn> that should make it clear
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20:58 < uriel> scyth: Go strings are UTF-8, so you don't need to worry about
anything as long as the other end understands utf-8
20:58 < uriel> (unlike with utf-16 and other such braindamage, where you
have to worry about endianness and other such nonense)
20:59 < scyth> uriel, yes..  that's kinda problem I guess
20:59 < uriel> well, any software that can't handle utf-8 in this day and
age is pretty much broken
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21:03 < scyth> I agree, but having options to encode to some other encoding
would be nice I guess
21:03 < nbjoerg> there are enough reasons for compatibility to have to do
with !Unicode
21:06 < scyth> fair enough, just wanted to be sure that utf-8 bytes are
comming out
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21:49 < mpl> whoa, forgetting the parens around the condition of a case
statement is bad...
21:50 < KirkMcDonald> mpl: Eh?
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21:52 < mpl> KirkMcDonald: something like that: "switch { case foo <=
1.0: blabla" gave me something weird that got fixed with "switch { case (foo <=
1.0): blabla".
21:54 < KirkMcDonald> That is...  strange.
21:57 <+iant> you shouldn't need parentheses there as far as I can see
21:59 < mpl> iant: oh it compiled fine, only I got some very weird result
21:59 < mpl> let me see if I can reproduce it in a simple case.
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22:11 < mpl> damn, can't do it anymore.  I guess I was too sleepy...
22:13 < nsf> http://www.2600.com/googleblacklist/
22:14 < nsf> :D
22:16 < mpl> I guess I didn't notice since it annoyed the hell out of me
right away so I turned it off immediately.
22:16 < nsf> the live search thing?
22:17 < mpl> yah
22:17 < nsf> I like it :)
22:17 < mpl> good for you then.
22:18 < nsf> good night, sweet dreams :)
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23:24 < jacekm> func handle(queue chan *Request) {
23:24 < jacekm> for r := range queue {
23:24 < jacekm> process(r)
23:24 < jacekm> }
23:24 < jacekm> }
23:24 < jacekm> func Serve(clientRequests chan *clientRequests, quit chan
bool) {
23:24 < jacekm> // Start handlers
23:24 < jacekm> for i := 0; i < MaxOutstanding; i++ {
23:24 < jacekm> go handle(clientRequests)
23:24 < jacekm> }
23:24 < jacekm> this example from effective go is borked, isn't it?
23:30 < exch> that seems a little odd
23:31 < exch> why 'go handle(clientRequests)' is in a loop and how 'chan
*clientRequests' is passed as 'chan *Request' seems wrong
23:32 < jacekm> i think only the latter is wrong
23:32 < jacekm> for loop spawns workers
23:32 < exch> ah right
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 05 00:00:09 2010