--- Log opened Mon Oct 18 00:00:11 2010
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02:08 < raylu> nsf: i think there is already such a thing.  you mean for
webpages?
02:09 < nsf> raylu: yes
02:10 < raylu> http://go-lang.cat-v.org/text-editors/
02:10 < nsf> well, there are only js based
02:10 < raylu> oh
02:10 < nsf> anyway, I know that there are some
02:10 < nsf> I was talking about more advanced syntax highlighting
02:11 < nsf> like for example detecting variable declarations
02:11 < nsf> etc.
02:11 < adu> hi nsf
02:11 < nsf> adu: hi
02:11 < adu> syntax highlighting is fascinating
02:12 < adu> its one of those things that would work well if there was some
kind of standard in-memory representation of all languages...
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02:32 < Tv> nsf: pygments is a generic html highlighter for any programming
language
02:32 < Tv> nsf: you should be able to write a go plugin
02:32 < nsf> I know
02:32 < nsf> I don't want to do that
02:32 < KirkMcDonald> Not just HTML.
02:32 < Tv> nsf: you know, you want a lot of things ;)
02:33 < nsf> most of the syntax highlighters are regexp based
02:33 < nsf> I was talking about honest parsing
02:33 * KirkMcDonald wrote the Go lexer for Pygments.
02:34 < KirkMcDonald> (And yes, Pygments has a Go lexer in it already.)
02:35 < KirkMcDonald> (That's why paste.pocoo.org has Go support.)
02:35 < nsf> that's nice actually
02:35 < Tv> oh nice
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07:06 < finkler> for iterating over a simple slice, is "range" good practice
or should I go the old C style?
07:13 < taruti> C style is preferred
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07:27 < finkler> is it faster?
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09:19 < unRuhe> I will give a presentation on GO at my Uni soon.  What topic
should I emphasize the most?  Or where is GO's strength in terms of language
design instead of appilications.
09:20 < unRuhe> I guess it's late where u guys live :D
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10:00 < uriel> unRuhe: simplicity and pragmatism
10:01 < uriel> the right mix of features, rather than endless pile of
features just for the sake of ticking as many boxes as possible in the infinte
feature checklist
10:02 < uriel> unRuhe: few features that work well together and that one can
understand well is much better than many features that step on each other's toes
and which nobody really understands
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10:03 < uriel> and of course then you have the neat things like CSP, 'static
ducktyping'/implicit-interfaces, etc
10:07 < mpl> and little albeit very convenient things like multiple returns
:)
10:08 < Ina> I also like the ease of concurrent programming in go.
10:08 < mpl> that's what uriel said by CSP.
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10:08 < Ina> Sorry, my bad.  Acronyms aren't my forte.
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11:00 < soul9> go doesn't handle weel if i have an ipv4 dns server, but can
connect to ipv6 servers
11:01 < soul9> each time the dns gives back a v6 adress, dial exits because
it seems to expect an v4 adress
11:02 < unRuhe> thx uriel , mpl, Ina - I'll focus a little more on
concurrency then.  pretty much covered pragmatism and simplicity already
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11:14 < soul9> oh, the bug is known
11:14 < soul9> ehh that sucks
11:14 < soul9> also, the solution will be to use libc :(
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11:18 < wrtp> soul9: russ has been making some big changes to the linker
recently that should allow it to statically link with external C code...  and
hence get access to external libraries cleanly, like dns for example.
11:18 < wrtp> (at least, i *think* that's the aim)
11:19 < soul9> statically link to dynamic libraries?
11:20 < wrtp> statically link to static libraries
11:32 < soul9> huh, but libc is dynamic no?
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12:33 < wrtp> soul9: i'm sure there's a static version around too.
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12:35 < soul9> is there?  i think glibc can't even be compiled statically
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13:02 < unRuhe> can you give me an example for a situation where implicit
interface satisfaction makes GO easier or better to handle?
13:05 < soul9> e.g.  the Reader interface.  you can use a file as a reader,
but if you want to buffer it, you can pass it to bufio, which also makes a reader
13:05 < soul9> and you can string it like so
13:05 < soul9> through e.g.  compression, which also gives you a reader
13:07 < skelterjohn> if interface satisfaction weren't implicit, that would
still be possible
13:07 < unRuhe> skelterjohn, yeah thats what i was thinking about
13:08 < soul9> ahh sorry
13:08 < skelterjohn> it's not so much that it makes it easier, as it's just
the "correct" way to do it.
13:08 < skelterjohn> a Reader is just something that has these methods
13:08 * soul9 tries to imagine if one had to explicitely list all interfaces that
are satisfied
13:08 < soul9> ugg
13:08 < skelterjohn> you don't have to explicitly say it's a reader, because
by giving it those methods you have made it a reader
13:08 < skelterjohn> soul9: also not what he's asking
13:09 < soul9> ok, sorry again, /me stfu
13:09 < skelterjohn> bufio.NewReader(Reader(myObject))
13:09 < unRuhe> but that does only safe me te to write "implement io.Reader"
13:09 < skelterjohn> the Reader(myObject) being explicitly saying that its a
reader
13:09 < unRuhe> there's gotta be more to it
13:09 < skelterjohn> oh, maybe he as
13:09 < skelterjohn> was
13:09 < skelterjohn> no, writing that would be a huge P.O.T.A.
13:09 < soul9> pota?
13:09 < skelterjohn> pain in the ass
13:10 < soul9> pita!
13:10 < skelterjohn> hah
13:10 < skelterjohn> thanks
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13:10 < skelterjohn> pain on the aSS
13:10 < skelterjohn> ass
13:10 < skelterjohn> maybe i should stop swearing
13:10 < opafan> !!
13:10 < skelterjohn> anyway, you don't know at code-time what interfaces
your struct might want to satisfy
13:12 < skelterjohn> for instance, if you use a third-party package (cannot
modify its code) and a self-defined interface to point to things from that package
13:12 < skelterjohn> it can work, the way go does it
13:12 < unRuhe> yeah there u got something
13:13 < unRuhe> don't get me wrong.  I too think go does it the right way
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13:13 < skelterjohn> asking questions about why go does something one way is
not the same as saying it's bad
13:13 < unRuhe> but in all the techtalks this feature is held high because
it gives freedom to design decisions and i want to understand how
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13:20 < unRuhe> Actually I think the freedom comes from not thinking that
much about type hierarchy
13:21 < unRuhe> Maybe having to write less adapterclasses
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13:21 < soul9> i think it's all part of the same problem: having to define
all the interfaces your "object" satisfies can be a lot of work, and you can't
think of everything
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13:23 < unRuhe> ok cool, i think I'm happy.  I hope after my presentation my
Software Development Teacher starts coding GO
13:24 < mpl> heh, your teachers are easily influenced.
13:24 < unRuhe> he's in love with java.  big time
13:25 < opafan> go sux and we kno it
13:26 < soul9> go learn(spelling)
13:27 < opafan> Out_Of_Brain_ExXception
13:28 < soul9> oh, is that java style.  so pretty with
Camel_Case_And_UnderScores
13:28 < opafan> java9
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14:09 < wrtp> soul9: are you saying it's impossible to statically compile
programs against glibc?
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14:27 < atsampson> wrtp: no, you can certainly link programs statically
against glibc (gcc -static ...)
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14:27 < atsampson> however, depending on what facilities you use, they may
want to load glibc-provided dynamic libraries at runtime
14:27 < atsampson> (e.g.  if you call getpwent, it'll want whatever nss
library you've got configured)
14:28 < atsampson> (there are also ugly hacks to link statically with
dynamic libraries, e.g.  http://statifier.sourceforge.net/ )
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15:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g6Spn by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/5l/ -- 5l:
data-relocatable code layout
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15:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g6Vx0 by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
say that shift must be unsigned integer
15:55 < EthanG> hmm..
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16:10 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g6WS2 by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- A+C: Yuval Pavel
Zholkover (individual CLA)
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16:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g6XWC by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/arm/
-- runtime: update arm softfloat - no more R12
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16:37 < unRuhe> is there GOTO in go?
16:37 < unRuhe> :D
16:37 < ptrb> yes
16:37 < ptrb> sadly
16:37 < unRuhe> dude
16:37 < unRuhe> okay
16:37 < unRuhe> i was actually semi kidding
16:37 < ptrb> yeah i know
16:38 < ptrb> it just makes me a little :( when I think about it
16:40 < unRuhe> isn't goto proven to be shit?
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16:40 < ptrb> not exactly in such concrete terms
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16:40 < kimelto> sometimes goto can be useful
16:41 < unRuhe> well maybe its only in because the language is called go
wich is 50% of goto
16:41 < unRuhe> so its obvious it had to be in
16:41 < unRuhe> :D
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16:43 < unRuhe> well goto can come handy when i want to avoid in a certain
statement in a loop without using break or something
16:43 < unRuhe> -in
16:44 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g6Zd3 by [Yuval Pavel Zholkover] in 6 subdirs
of go/src/ -- 8l, runtime: initial support for Plan 9
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17:01 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g70nY by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/ -- runtime: fix amd64 build (broke by 386 support for Plan 9)
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17:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g72jP by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/arm/
-- runtime: fix arm softfloat again for R12
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17:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g73vb by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/5l/ -- 5l:
handle jump to middle of floating point sequence
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18:07 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g74zS by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- A+C: Florian
Ukermann (individual CLA)
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18:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g75ES by [Florian Uekermann] in
go/src/pkg/big/ -- big: add random number generation
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19:04 < skelterjohn> anyone familiar with the reflect package around?  if
the struct i'm reflecting on has a member of type float, how do i get a pointer to
that member?
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19:10 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: The StructField type has an Offset
member.
19:11 < skelterjohn> i saw that - does that mean that i'm going to need to
use unsafe?
19:11 < skelterjohn> and do pointer arithmetic?  i figured there might be a
more straightforward way
19:12 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: Actually, getting the Value from the
StructValue for the field should work.
19:12 < KirkMcDonald> Value has a Addr() method.
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19:19 < skelterjohn> KirkMcDonald: I don't see how to get a Value from the
api
19:19 < skelterjohn> i might be blind, though
19:19 < skelterjohn> still looking
19:20 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: StructValue.FieldByName, for instance.
19:20 < skelterjohn> returns a StructField
19:20 < KirkMcDonald> That is StructType.FieldByName
19:21 < skelterjohn> oh
19:21 < skelterjohn> sorry
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19:21 < skelterjohn> then what I don't see is how to get a StructValue from
my interface{}
19:22 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn:
reflect.NewValue(struct_instance).(*reflect.StructValue)
19:23 < skelterjohn> ahhh gotcha
19:23 < KirkMcDonald> If you have a pointer to the struct rather than the
struct itself, you'll need to dereference it.
19:23 < skelterjohn> the use of New confused me, maybe - it's not
initializing something of my struct type, it's initializing a Value
19:23 < skelterjohn> right
19:24 < KirkMcDonald>
reflect.NewValue(struct_ptr).(*reflect.PtrValue).Elem().(*reflect.StructValue)
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19:25 < skelterjohn> yeah
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19:50 < skelterjohn> thanks, KirkMcDonald, got it all working now
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20:23 < yiyus> i improved my awk scripts and finally i have a file with all
the go types and what interfaces they implement
20:23 < yiyus> of course, it is very slow, but it got the job done
20:23 < Namegduf> Why do people want this information, anyway?
20:23 < skelterjohn> huh - why is that useful, exactly?  :)
20:24 < Namegduf> I mean, I can see the use of knowing what interfaces I
don't implement but provide functionality *like*, in order to make something more
reusable
20:24 < Namegduf> (Not that you couldn't throw a wrapper around it and reuse
it anyway)
20:25 < yiyus> it is just more information
20:25 < Namegduf> More information for *what*?
20:25 < skelterjohn> also, a lot of misinformation in that, too
20:25 < Namegduf> A current count of the number of vowels in a package is
more information, but it doesn't let you do anything.
20:25 < yiyus> basicly to go from one type to another
20:25 < skelterjohn> there are some functions that will take a certain kind
of interface that some type will accidentally implement
20:25 < yiyus> how do you get a reader from a string?
20:25 < skelterjohn> just because it has a function of the right name
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20:26 < yiyus> maybe you kn ow all these relations by heart, i dont
20:26 < Namegduf> I go look at the definition of "Reader"
20:26 < skelterjohn> scan the package list and see what looks like it might
apply
20:26 < Namegduf> And then I know anything with the methods it requires is
it.
20:26 < yiyus> yes, and then look into io, ioutil, strings, bufio, bytes,
....
20:26 < Namegduf> But that's not what you're suggesting.
20:27 < Namegduf> That's interface->implementations.
20:27 < skelterjohn> so instead you are writing a script that finds anythign
that goes from string to Reader?
20:27 < Namegduf> Not implementations->interface.
20:28 < yiyus> now it is type -> interfaces implemented
20:28 < Namegduf> Right.  But why is that useful?
20:28 < yiyus> the other way is like one line of awk
20:28 < Namegduf> Your example was the other way around.
20:28 < yiyus> it looks like you have never used an index
20:29 < Namegduf> It looks like you can't answer my question.
20:29 < yiyus> i told you is just mmore information
20:29 < Namegduf> So's a current count of the number of uses of the
character 'e' in a package.
20:30 < Namegduf> It doesn't make it *useful* information.
20:30 < yiyus> being able to tell what types implement what interfaces at a
look can help you to make design decissions
20:30 < Namegduf> Like?
20:30 < skelterjohn> like a *bytes.Buffer implements Reader, for instance
20:30 < skelterjohn> going with his example
20:31 < yiyus> like what types to use
20:31 < Namegduf> skelterjohn: I meant, "Like what design decisions?"
20:31 < skelterjohn> oh - no i only see this helping you find documentation
more quickly
20:31 < Namegduf> yiyus: In what circumstances?
20:32 < Namegduf> It seems like if you were interested in knowing what types
to use, you'd be looking at a interface to types mapping
20:32 < skelterjohn> unless your design decision is "do i write something to
do this or look for something in the existing library that does it for me?"
20:32 < Namegduf> Not a types to interface mapping.
20:32 < skelterjohn> that i agree with
20:32 < Namegduf> *type to interfaces
20:32 < skelterjohn> you need a reader that can use a string so you look up
what satisfies io.Reader
20:32 < skelterjohn> and you see *bytes.Buffer
20:33 < yiyus> well, it is like a table
20:33 < Namegduf> Only if you store both directions.
20:34 < yiyus> i already told you that the other direction is one line of
awk
20:34 < skelterjohn> knowing what interfaces a *bytes.Buffer implements
seems not as useful
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20:34 < Namegduf> skelterjohn: That's my point.
20:34 < skelterjohn> yiyus: how to get the information is irrelevant - the
question is whether or not the information is worth getting
20:35 < Namegduf> yiyus: That doesn't answer my question, which is "Why is
knowing interfaces that a type implements useful?"
20:36 < yiyus> Namegduf: i did not say it was useful, i said it was more
information
20:36 < Namegduf> You've said that it doesn't help you find the types that
implement an interface, and that this information can be gotten with "one line of
awk"...
20:36 < yiyus> the same way a diagram is not "useful"
20:36 < yiyus> i think it is interesting
20:36 < Namegduf> If a diagram isn't useful, it's a waste of time.
20:36 < yiyus> if you dont, just ignore it
20:36 < Namegduf> A diagram should be useful by presenting useful
information in an easily parsed manner.
20:37 < skelterjohn> Namegduf decries all forms of entertainment
20:37 < Namegduf> skelterjohn: Well, depends on your definition of "use".
Mine includes entertainment.  :P
20:37 < fenicks> hello
20:38 < yiyus> Namegduf: how do you know if an os.File is an io.Reader?
20:38 < Namegduf> yiyus: I look at the definition of io.Reader
20:38 < yiyus> you have to go to the io package and see the methods of the
interface
20:38 < Namegduf> Yes, I do.
20:38 < Namegduf> It's not hard.
20:38 < yiyus> then, go to the os package and see the methods of FIle
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20:38 < Namegduf> Not hard at all.
20:38 < yiyus> I have that in a table, if it does not look betterr for you,
ok
20:39 < Namegduf> Well, the only use of a table is if I want to check
multiple interfaces for a type at once.
20:39 < Namegduf> I don't know why I'd want to do that.
20:40 < yiyus> by your reasoning, docs are unuseful, you can just read the
source!
20:40 < Namegduf> No, docs are useful because they provide useful informaton
in a more easily parsed format.
20:41 < yiyus> i already gave you an example of where this information can
help you to find what you are looking for faster
20:41 < Namegduf> Less than a minute faster.
20:41 < Namegduf> For an uncommon operation.
20:42 < yiyus> Namegduf: fair enough
20:42 < Namegduf> And that was a single type vs a single interface.
20:42 < skelterjohn> well, that's just being contrary.  but if you want to
know "if type X implements interface Y", you already have Y on speeddial
20:42 < Namegduf> While either of the two (type to interfaces, interfaces to
type) can do that, it's a slightly different piece of information.
20:43 < Namegduf> And...  yeah, not sufficiently hard to get otherwise that
it'd be worth a list.
20:43 < Namegduf> My point isn't that interfaces-to-type or one to one tests
isn't useful, it could be helpful to query occasionally for odd queries.
20:44 < Namegduf> Er, types-to-interfaces.
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20:44 < Namegduf> It's that interfaces-to-type is fairly useless and I don't
see why everyone is insisting they want it listed in the source.
20:45 < Namegduf> Well, not everyone, but some people.
20:45 < skelterjohn> besides the findType(io.Reader)->*bytes.Buffer use
case?
20:45 < skelterjohn> oh i misread
20:45 < Namegduf> Yeah, I miswrote.
20:45 < skelterjohn> no - that should not be listed in the source
20:45 < Namegduf> First time.
20:45 < skelterjohn> because it just isn't known at source-writing time, in
all cases
20:46 < Namegduf> It isn't known, and it isn't *useful*.
20:47 < yiyus> Namegduf: imo the most interesting aspect of an os.File, for
example, is that it implements the io.ReaderWriter interface
20:47 < yiyus> of course you can find that information reading the whole
docs
20:48 < yiyus> but that information is useful
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20:48 < skelterjohn> it's not interesting that it implements
io.ReaderWriter.  it's interesting that it can be passed to functions that take a
io.ReaderWriter as a parameter
20:48 < Namegduf> Well, for me, the most interesting information is that I
can read and write to it.
20:49 < Namegduf> I don't care about interfaces met until I want to feed
something to something expecting a specific one.
20:49 < skelterjohn> so, unless you want to list all the functions that can
be called with an *os.File as a parameter, we should stick with the way things are
20:49 < yiyus> skelterjohn: whats the difference?
20:49 < skelterjohn> yiyus: what's the same?
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20:50 < yiyus> implementing an interface and being able to be passed to
functions that take that interface as parameter
20:50 < skelterjohn> particular functions, that is
20:50 < skelterjohn> not the general set of functions that take
io.ReaderWriter
20:50 < skelterjohn> because that is not a useful set to reason about
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20:54 < gzmask> the websocket example can not compile:
http://golang.org/src/pkg/websocket/client.go#L101
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22:13 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g7joH by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/netchan/ --
netchan: add new method Hangup to terminate transmission on a channel
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22:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g7kmg by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/cmd/gc/ --
gc: update usage string in doc.go
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23:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g7nb8 by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- fix bug in
example.  need to convert Value to float in Abs example
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23:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g7o8U by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- A+C:
Yasuhiro Matsumoto
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 19 00:00:11 2010