--- Log opened Sun Oct 24 00:00:12 2010
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03:17 <@adg> mikhailt: t := relfect.Typeof(v); for i := 0; i <
t.NumMethod(); i++ { _ = t.Method(i) }
03:17 <@adg> s/relfect/reflect
03:17 <@adg> http://golang.org/pkg/reflect/#Type
03:21 < drd> any help appreciated: i am experiencing runtime errors when
calling c functions, it seems to be a link problem (?) http://pastie.org/1244104
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03:25 <@adg> drd: *extern* void init_decoding ?
03:25 <@adg> drd: (that's a guess)
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03:28 < drd> adg: doesn't seem to help; following
http://cheesesun.blogspot.com/2009/12/basic-cgo.html it doesn't seem to be
necessary
03:30 < drd> added make output: http://pastie.org/1244104
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03:41 < cbeck> drd: Do _ versions of those functions appear anywhere in the
av* source tree?
03:41 < cbeck> Might be a dynamic linking error inside the C portions
03:41 < cbeck> Just a guess though
03:43 < drd> it seems like that's the problem
03:43 < drd> see:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/71db540e7f2ea8ba
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03:45 < drd> however, i can't find something that matches
03:46 < cbeck> did you see the last post to that thread?
03:46 < cbeck> Seems related
03:47 < cbeck> Even if this is swigless
03:47 < drd> yeah but there are no #pragma dynexports anywhere :\
03:47 < cbeck> Hrm
03:48 < drd> there are dynimports
03:48 < drd> but they don't reference the symbols
03:48 < drd> well, not directly
03:48 < drd> #pragma dynimport _cgo_Cfunc_prepare_decoding
_cgo_Cfunc_prepare_decoding "@rpath/cgo_libav.so"
03:50 < cbeck> Try building on a school box maybe?
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03:55 < drd> yeah
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05:23 < anticw> iant: what concurrent operations are safe on maps?  delete
and iteration ....  anything beyond that?
05:24 <+iant> I'm not sure delete is safe concurrently; I don't think you
can have two different goroutines delete an entry simultaneously
05:24 <+iant> in general only read-only operations are safe concurrently
05:24 <+iant> if you need simultaneous changes to a map, use a goroutine or
a mutex
05:25 < anticw> k
05:25 < anticw> yeah, i was thinking about add/deletion inside an iteration
loop ...
05:25 < anticw> but that's not concurrent
05:31 < Tv> anticw: deleting while iterating is *usually* a bad idea
05:32 < Tv> not sure about go
05:33 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1244348
05:33 < nsf> ruby is funny :)
05:33 < anticw> it's actually a case on concurrent adds right now
05:33 * nsf rewrites his testing scripts in ruby
05:34 < nsf> one-liner lovers language
05:34 < nsf> :D
05:34 < Namegduf> Ruby is terse, but I actually can tell what the Python is
doing in a fraction of the time.
05:34 < Namegduf> Of course, I don't know Ruby.
05:35 < nsf> maybe it is possible to do a better more readable instance of
that algo in ruby
05:35 < nsf> I don't know :)
05:35 < Namegduf> Hmm, I think I get it now.  What a weird operator.
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05:37 < nsf> basically both versions do: for each ident, find an entity in
smap with the same offset..  if at least one ident doesn't have corresponding
entity in smap - return false, otherwise true
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05:52 < Tv> beh i stopped using perl for a reason..
05:52 < Tv> *bleh
05:52 < Tv> beh is like halfway between bleh and bah
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06:08 < anticw> throw: assert
06:08 < anticw> anyone seen that recently?
06:09 < anticw> hmm...  double panic it seems
06:13 < anticw> heh ...  i assumed i could just ommit a mutex for now
because it would be hard to hit the case where i got corruption
06:13 < anticw> turns out it's easy
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06:21 < binarypie> good evening
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07:10 < nsf> another Go-ism in ruby: http://pastie.org/1244438
07:11 < nsf> ruby makes me smile :)
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08:54 < rickard8> So, I'm downloading a web page in golang served in iso
8859-1 and the swedish characters (åäö) are getting all messed up, any pointers or
ideas on how to solve it?
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09:49 < imc> yo!
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10:22 < fuzzybyte> does go really have no exponentiation operator?  why not?
10:25 < fuzzybyte> it's pow like C..
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10:27 < Tonnerre> That's not really an operator in either language
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10:29 < fuzzybyte> err..  well you know what I mean
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10:34 < fuzzybyte> writing Pow(x,y) just seems so ugly to python's x**y.
Even the math.Pow documentation uses x**y notation to explain Pow().
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10:35 < Tonnerre> You know, APL has an operator for every possible
mathematical operation, so maybe you want to write your code in APL if it's so
important to you
10:42 < fuzzybyte> yes im nitpicking, but it's not like Pow() that rarely
used math operation that it couldn't have deserved its own operator.
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11:28 < imc> uhm...  i'm writing a logger function, i.e.  (l Logger) Log(v
...interface{}) { fmt.Println((time.Nanoseconds() / 1e6 - l.start), " | " +
l.prefix, fmt.Println(v)) }
11:28 < imc> the problem is that Println sees v as a alice, not arguments...
how do i pack/unpack v in go ?
11:29 < imc> s/alice/slice/
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12:24 < imc> :284
12:25 < imc> irssi is not vim.
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12:26 < kimelto> true
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12:43 < KBme> anyone know how i can disable tests for the build?
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12:45 < KBme> or rather: run just the build without tests, and then run
tests separately
12:47 < KBme> afaics there is none (looking at all.bash and make.bash)?
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13:24 < KBme> so, anyone here packaging go?
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15:05 < KBme> noone working on packaging‽
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16:06 < mikhailt> Guys, is there something like strings.Index but for
unicode strings?
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16:13 < Tv> mikhailt: i think all go strings are unicode..
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16:27 < eis_os> Anyone here uses webgo/fcgigo in a shared hosting setup
mode, aka allowing users running go behind a regular apache setup?
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16:30 < mikhailt> Is there a way to manually deallocate memory?  It is
inconvinient sometimes to wait for GC.
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16:34 < napsy> mikhailt: call the GC explicitly
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16:42 < Gertm> when trying to goinstall github.com/hoisie/redis.go I get the
error message: multiple package names in .../hoisie/redis.go But on my x64
machine, I don't get that error message.  (both have same version of Go)
16:42 < Gertm> who can I solve this?
16:42 < Gertm> how*
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16:46 < ptrb> I'm guessing there is cruft left over...  you can goinstall -u
-v blahblah to see in more detail
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16:50 < Gertm> I'm getting more output on the git stuff, but after that it's
just the same line
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16:52 < Gertm> aha
16:53 < TheMue> re
16:53 < Gertm> the git stuff fails on my 32bit machine, it's a different
error message.  When doing git pull release, the 32bit version craps out while the
64bit version recovers and just continues
16:53 < skelterjohn> can anyone help me figure out what's going wrong here?
getting linker errors: http://pastebin.com/kATsmxsK
16:54 < skelterjohn> the googlecode projects and fsss are mine
16:54 < Gertm> arr wait a minute, it does do the same :/
16:55 < KBme> skelterjohn: do you have a newline at the end of the file?
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16:56 < skelterjohn> um.  i can try that, but it would be a compiler error,
no?
16:56 < KBme> not sure
16:57 < skelterjohn> this is on the link step and there are about 100
different source files coming together at this point :) so i'm not sure which one
i'd need to look at
16:57 < KBme> last time for me it wasn't, tho i think they might have fixed
that lately
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17:05 < skelterjohn> Gertm: there are at least two files in the directory
hoisie that don't have the same package
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17:45 < fhs> Gertm: That's a bug in goinstall (Issue 1215)
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17:53 < Gertm> ah, thanks fhs
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17:54 < tulcod> so wait a second, why exactly is go better than <x>?
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17:55 < MaksimBurnin> better than what?
17:55 < tulcod> better than whatever
17:56 < Gertm> it's not probably
17:56 < tulcod> why should i choose go over anything
17:56 < tulcod> or whatever
17:56 < tulcod> what's go good at
17:56 < cbeck> Trolling.
17:56 < Gertm> what do you normally use?
17:56 < tulcod> python and c++
17:56 < Gertm> what are those good at?
17:56 < tulcod> python is good in rapid development, c++ is good in robust
programming
17:57 < tulcod> *at
17:57 < Tv> tulcod: seems like go might be able to replace your use of c++,
at least at some point
17:57 < Tv> tulcod: i'm switching from python+c to python+go, myself
17:57 < Gertm> I'm coming from Erlang, and I'm loving Go so far
17:57 < cbeck> I'm coming from C++, and loving Go
17:58 < tulcod> cbeck, why exactly?
17:58 < cbeck> GC is a big one
17:59 < tulcod> the compiler is good?
17:59 < MaksimBurnin> for example go gives you less control of memory(than
c++) and less abilityes to make an error.
17:59 < cbeck> Mostly because Go's model of paralellism is very close to my
mental model
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17:59 < KBme> thing is code won't be as fast as c++ (yet?)
17:59 < tulcod> KBme, well, if you need to get those last few bits of speed
i suppose you could hold a better argument for c :)
18:00 < KBme> i don't!
18:00 < KBme> hehe
18:00 < cbeck> Although Go is really designed for large systems, which tend
to be IO bound anyway
18:00 < tulcod> wait, go is designed for large systems?
18:01 < KBme> yeah, google started it to replace some of their c++ code
18:01 < cbeck> In some sense, yes
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18:01 < MaksimBurnin> my point is go is designed to be scalable.
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seconds]
18:02 < Tv> "scale" needs to stop being a fashionable buzzword :-/
18:02 < MaksimBurnin> :-D
18:02 < tulcod> KBme, i don't know, last time i checked google refrained
from using exceptions in C++, whcih basically throws away all the good stuff
18:03 < mikhailt> exceptions are extremely slow and error prone
18:03 < tulcod> "yeah, it's too complicated, so let's just use a subset of
C++ which is basically the same as C with objects"
18:04 < tulcod> mikhailt, well, i'd rather not start a flamewar about C++
here, but i absolutely disagree with that :)
18:04 < MaksimBurnin> Tv: i am not trying to sell you golang ) its my point,
i like scalability of go
18:04 < Tv> MaksimBurnin: languages are almost completely orthogonal to
scaling..
18:04 < tulcod> Tv, what about erlang?  that has some scalability builtin...
18:05 < Tv> tulcod: no, it has some distributedness features
18:05 < tulcod> hm, i see what you eman
18:05 < MaksimBurnin> Tv: may be i choose a wrong word.  as see my english
is not so good ;)
18:06 < tulcod> so are there any features in go that the community is, in
some sense, "proud" of?
18:06 < mikhailt> ohohoh
18:06 < Tv> tulcod: channels, goroutines, simplicity as a virtue
18:07 < mikhailt> I am also proud about some features go does not contain
18:07 < mikhailt> exceptions, pointer arithmetic, implicit type cast
18:07 < MaksimBurnin> mikhailt: true, true
18:10 < tulcod> jeez, so many people misunderstood C++' exceptions...  makes
sense people refrain from learning it :P
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18:12 < tulcod> okay thanks guys, you gave me a good idea about go
18:12 < mikhailt> If feature X can lead to spagetti code it is a good reason
to get rid of it
18:12 < tulcod> (at least i think you did ;))
18:12 < MaksimBurnin> another "feature" go does not contain is operator
overloading...
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18:13 < cbeck> My main objection to them is that they introduce difficult to
discern paths through your code, which in a non memory managed language is pretty
much asking for leaks
18:13 < KBme> there is no way to get a tarball of a release on
code.google.com?
18:13 < KBme> that sucks...
18:14 < mikhailt> why?
18:14 < KBme> for packaging.
18:14 < KBme> i could package a live ebuild, but those usually don't get
accepted easily
18:15 < MaksimBurnin> KBme: there is an old featurequest.  you can star it
and may be some day we get this feature
18:15 < KBme> also, most mercurial web frontends support downloading a
tarball of a commit tree
18:15 < KBme> MaksimBurnin: can you recall the url?
18:16 < MaksimBurnin> ill try to find it
18:16 < KBme> thanks
18:16 < KBme> i guess i could make a tarball myself for now.
18:17 < MaksimBurnin>
http://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=810&q=trunk&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Milestone%20Priority%20Stars%20Owner%20Summary
18:18 < KBme> cool
18:18 < KBme> thanks, starred it
18:18 < MaksimBurnin> np
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18:59 < KBme> i made a gentoo ebuild for golang if anyone is interested:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=342505
18:59 < KBme> it would be way easier to get it accepted if binaries and
documentation would be installed into the usual paths, but oh well
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19:06 < uriel> KBme: what are the usual paths?  and why can't you install
binaries and docs there?
19:07 * KBme thought paths are hardcoded in the binaries
19:08 * TheMue just published an article about the supervising of Goroutines at
http://bit.ly/b7Vmsj
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19:13 < hoare> hi guys
19:13 < Tv> TheMue: typo, "startet"
19:13 < hoare> is there a "static analyzer tool" for go?
19:13 < Tv> TheMue: that paragraph is a bit confusing..
19:13 < hoare> I am planning to start a project about that
19:15 < TheMue> Tv: Thx, typo fixed and will look for a better way to
describe it
19:16 < KBme> does anyone have any experience with packaging go?
19:17 < Tv> TheMue: "supervisr", "reacts *to*"..
19:17 < Tv> TheMue: still trying to understand all the implications of the
code
19:17 < Tv> TheMue: like, that makes messages on channels be lossy (just
like erlang, but without the ecosystem)
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19:19 < TheMue> Tv: Maybe written too fast ;)
19:22 < TheMue> Tv: If the recoverable type manages channels and don't
restarts those only the processed data that leaded to the error is lost.
19:22 < Tv> TheMue: yes, but that's still lossy
19:23 < Tv> TheMue: the error might be transient etc
19:23 < TheMue> Tv: Yep, not enough for HA solutions.  Here reliable
protocols are needed.
19:24 < Tv> TheMue: but i do like the code..
19:24 < Tv> i may even have a use for it ;)
19:24 < TheMue> It's just a very simple solution, no real framework.
19:26 < TheMue> I like the way how elegant solutions can be handled with
goroutines, channels, interfaces, and function types.
19:27 < TheMue> And Erlang has about 20 years of advance.  So let's start
...
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19:39 < hoare> so you say that currently there are no static analyzers for
Go
19:39 < Tv> hoare: like, lint?  have you seen gofmt?
19:39 < hoare> Tv: I have not used Go at all
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19:40 < hoare> I mean like lint.  yeah.
19:40 < Tv> hoare: http://golang.org/cmd/gofmt/
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19:40 < Tv> hoare: i find gofmt makes me notice bad syntax etc
19:40 < hoare> hmm i do not just mean the syntax
19:40 < Tv> hoare: go doesn't have a lint to detect more subtle traps, but
it also doesn't have quite as many subtle traps
19:41 < Tv> hoare: language simplicity goes a long way, there
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19:41 < hoare> if there exist no lint tool for Go, I am planning to learn Go
and start this tool as an open source project for my major's project.
19:42 < Tv> hoare: well, http://github.com/bytbox/golint
19:42 < Tv> hoare: a bit of googling goes a long way
19:42 < hoare> oh :/
19:42 < TheMue> ;)
19:42 < hoare> all my enthusiasm has gone
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19:46 < hoare> I hate this situation
19:48 < TheMue> no other idea for a project?
19:49 < Tv> how do i run godoc on my code, not code in the go source tree?
19:49 < yebyen_> -goroot=
19:49 < Tv> ahh
19:50 < Tv> well that makes it fail to open the templates :(
19:50 < yebyen_> hmm
19:50 < yebyen_> maybe add your package to goroot?
19:50 < yebyen_> -path=
19:50 < yebyen_> there
19:50 < Tv> yebyen_: i couldn't get that to do the right thing
19:51 < yebyen_> we had problems making up sensible directions for godoc
when i took the class on this
19:51 < yebyen_> 6 months ago
19:51 < yebyen_> so stuff has changed for sure
19:51 < Tv> yebyen_: basically, i even straced it and didn't see it trying
to open files in the -path i gave, at all
19:51 < yebyen_> i remember hearing "this param doesn't do anything" then,
too
19:52 < Tv> heh
19:52 < yebyen_> have to go try this android build
19:52 < yebyen_> http://martyfunkhouser.csh.rit.edu/~yebyen/ <-- eeepc
build now with 3d acceleration!  froyo 2.2 x86
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19:56 < Tv> i got it working, now i'm just annoyed by it insisting on using
the basename
19:56 < Tv> (the source is in a "src" subdir)
19:56 < Tv> it seems the web ui works better
19:57 < Tv> well
19:57 < Tv> now that i now what to ask, i can make the cli work too
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20:36 < tulcod> how does go's memory usage compare to other languages?  i
suppose it's lighter than, say, python, but is it as good as C? what does a Go
binary contain except for the program code itself?
20:45 < Tv> tulcod: don't confuse implementation with language..
20:46 < tulcod> i don't
20:46 < tulcod> but implementation can't fix anything
20:46 < tulcod> so what's memory usage currently like?
20:47 < Tv> why don't you try it?
20:47 -!- xash [~xash@d074007.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240
seconds]
20:47 < tulcod> because i figured some of you might be able to tell me
straight away :)
20:47 < Tv> sure.
20:47 < Tv> "depends"
20:47 < Namegduf> tulcod: Memory usage is better than many things, the GC is
still rather immature, though, so it can run significantly above what manual
memory management would do in certain apps.
20:47 < Namegduf> tulcod: I can't answer the "what does a Go binary contain
except for the program code itself" part, because I can't figure what you mean.
20:48 < tulcod> well, if i compile a go program, and if i would open up the
resulting binary and manually read its assembly and interpret it
20:48 < tulcod> what kind of code would i find, apart from the stuff which I
wrote, but in a different language
20:49 < Tv> what else could there be?
20:49 < tulcod> alright, let's ask it another way.  is the garbage collector
included in the binayr?
20:49 < Namegduf> I don't think you'd see anything but the implementation of
your code, and code called by it.
20:49 < Namegduf> Yes.
20:49 < tulcod> so then there's also a gc
20:49 < Tv> you'll always have some runtime
20:49 < tulcod> exactly :)
20:49 < Namegduf> Not "exactly"
20:49 < Tv> go runtime has stuff c's runtime doesn't; then again, it is a
fairly small & simple runtime
20:49 < Namegduf> Very imprecisely, actually
20:50 < bartbes> that is always the case with any gc language
20:50 < tulcod> Tv, htat makes sense...
20:50 < tulcod> bartbes, well, couldn't it have been in an external lib?
20:50 < tulcod> like, libgo
20:50 < Namegduf> Your code calls into the GC when it does memory
allocations, I believe, and on certain other events.
20:50 < bartbes> if you have stuff the language does for you, then there has
to be a runtime
20:50 < bartbes> hmm libgo would sound *worse* to me
20:50 < Namegduf> tulcod: Go code is statically compiled.
20:50 < bartbes> it would add another dependency
20:50 < bartbes> *sounds
20:50 < tulcod> okay
20:53 < Namegduf> There's various bits inserted that you implicitly call
into, or are implicitly invoked; GC being the main one, building interface-type
vtables on first creation *could* be one if you liked...  but it basically is your
code and things it calls.
20:53 < Namegduf> Figuring out what you call the "runtime" is hard, or at
least I've never heard an easy line.
20:53 < bartbes> so it only 'links' the stuff you use?
20:53 < Namegduf> Yes.
20:54 < bartbes> that is great
20:54 < tulcod> bartbes, you mean the imports?
20:54 < Namegduf> Not just what you import, but only the code in what you
import which is called.
20:54 < Namegduf> Or, rather, referred to.
20:54 < bartbes> what Namegduf said
20:55 < tulcod> wait, but stuff you use from "imports" are statically linked
into your binary?
20:55 < Namegduf> Yes.
20:55 < Tv> beauty of static compilation is, if you don't use parts of the
runtime, they don't need to be there
20:55 < tulcod> doesn't that produce big binaries?
20:55 < Namegduf> Relatively.
20:55 < tulcod> hm, alright
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20:55 < Namegduf> It also creates binaries you can distribute without
dependencies.
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20:56 < tulcod> yeah alright, but some would prefer dynamic linking
20:56 < Tv> tulcod: biggest executable in go itself is 4MB, smallest 192kB
20:57 < Tv> tulcod: why don't you look at these things yourself?
20:57 < tulcod> okay, that's pretty good :P
20:57 < tulcod> hm yeah, i should
20:57 < tulcod> k i should stop asking now, and juts dive into it
20:59 < mikhailt> Are there any substantial limitations for dynamic linking
in Go? Or it is so just because development is in very early stages?
20:59 < Tv> mikhailt: well, static is simple
21:00 < Namegduf> There are no particular reasons why it couldn't be done, I
think.
21:01 < Namegduf> I'm not sure if gccgo can technically do it or not.
21:01 < mikhailt> gccgo is kind of deprecated, isnt it?
21:01 < Namegduf> No.
21:01 < Namegduf> Why would you think so?
21:01 < Namegduf> It's gone mainline into gcc
21:02 < mikhailt> Ok, not deprecated, but it loses one of the main features
- fast compilation
21:02 < Namegduf> It's still *quite* fast.
21:02 < Namegduf> Just not as very fast as 6g
21:03 < Tv> it's still not slow-as-in-c++
21:03 < Namegduf> Or even C.
21:03 < mikhailt> Also 6g will produce faster code some day.
21:03 < bartbes> is the gc finished yet?
21:03 < Namegduf> Yes, but I don't think goroutines are.
21:04 < Namegduf> It has tradeoffs, though, yes, but the bigger ones are
incomplete things, not deprecation, which implies previously being recommended and
now not being so.
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21:04 < mikhailt> There is simple implementation of GC and another fancy one
is in development.
21:04 < Namegduf> Same as for 6g, yes.
21:05 < Namegduf> I think they use the same GC now.
21:05 < kimelto> what's the status of the new gc?
21:05 < Namegduf> I don't think we've seen any news about it going beyond
the design phase.
21:06 < kimelto> can I find design papers on golang.org ?
21:06 < mikhailt> I doubt about that.
21:06 < Namegduf> Depends what you mean by design papers; the language spec
is certainly up there.
21:08 < kimelto> Namegduf: about the implementation of the new GC
21:08 < Namegduf> Ah, then no.
21:08 < Namegduf> Unless something happened and I haven't heard about it.
21:08 < kimelto> Oki doki.
21:13 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@2001:6f8:12c6:1c86:224:1dff:fed7:9541] has quit [Remote
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21:14 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ggv3o by [Luuk van Dijk] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/ -- 6l/8l: global and local variables and type info.
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21:17 < mikhailt> plexdev: so?
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21:22 < Namegduf> mikhailt: plexdev is a bot.
21:22 < MaksimBurnin> plexdev is an automatic commit notification bot
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21:36 < mikhailt> :D
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21:39 < crazy2be> internal compiler error: fault
21:39 < crazy2be> what can one do about that?
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22:02 < yiyus> crazy2be: fill an issue
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22:36 -!- electrograv [81d28070@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.210.128.112] has
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22:37 < electrograv> I've got a question / suggestion
22:37 < electrograv> lets say I make an array in go of 100,000 ints - those
are going to be all set to 0, right?
22:37 < electrograv> no exceptions to the this?
22:37 < Namegduf> Yes.
22:37 < Namegduf> I do not believe so.
22:38 < electrograv> I wish there were a keyword like this:
22:38 < electrograv> var myarray [1000000]int = trash
22:38 < electrograv> where trash is defined as unpredictable values
22:39 < Tv> electrograv: go is intentionally a "safe" language
22:39 < Namegduf> Why?
22:39 < electrograv> because I'm starting a new hobby project that deals
with a lot of memory manip.
22:39 < electrograv> as in lots and lots of big arrays
22:39 < electrograv> of vectors,etc
22:39 < electrograv> and I like a lot of what I see in go
22:40 < electrograv> but I need it to be very efficient
22:40 < Tv> electrograv: smells like premature optimization
22:40 < electrograv> so setting a few million vectors to 0 every time is a
bit innefficient
22:40 < Tv> electrograv: use the same variable more
22:40 < electrograv> yes, but can we be guaranteed that iterating through a
million ints and selectively performing computations / function calls will
optimize out the initialization
22:41 < electrograv> well, float64s, but same thing
22:42 < electrograv> example:
22:43 < Namegduf> electrograv: Do you know how slow zeroing large blocks at
once is?
22:43 < Namegduf> I doubt it zeroes every element individually, and I don't
know how slow zeroing large blocks is.
22:43 < electrograv> depends on the architecture I suppose
22:44 < electrograv> but its still non optimal
22:44 < electrograv> var values [100000]float64
22:44 < Namegduf> Yes, but that doesn't make it measurable, or significant.
22:44 < Tv> i see two alternatives: 1) you only need that once per run, and
the OS is going to be zeroing your pages anyway 2) you need it many times per run,
and you should reuse variables
22:44 < Tv> and, most of all, don't fix it if it's not a problem
22:45 < Tv> tiniest algorithmic change is likely to be much much more
relevant for performance
22:45 < electrograv> for (i:=0; i<n; i++) { values[i] = calculations(); }
for (i:=n; i<=100000; i++) { values[i] = morecalculations(); }
22:46 < electrograv> in any case I dont think proposing a "trash" keyword is
at all unreasonable
22:46 < Namegduf> It kind of is.
22:46 < electrograv> why
22:46 < Namegduf> You're adding a keyword for *no proven benefit or effect*.
22:46 < Namegduf> It is not benchmarked and you've no reason to believe it's
a non-trivial gain.
22:47 < Namegduf> And Go is supposed to be a simple language.
22:47 < electrograv> iota
22:47 < Namegduf> Has a use.
22:47 < electrograv> changes each time you use it based on some arbitrary
set of rules
22:47 < electrograv> it is well defined
22:47 < Namegduf> Yes, rules are generally arbitrary.
22:47 < electrograv> "trash" can be just as well defined
22:47 < Namegduf> I didn't say it wasn't well-defined.
22:48 < electrograv> I dont see how trash isnt a simple concept
22:48 < Namegduf> I said it had no proven benefit or effect, with the
performance idea you're mentioning untested and with no reason to believe it was
measurable.
22:48 < Tv> electrograv: look, variables are initialized to zero for a
*reason*
22:48 < Namegduf> I didn't say it wasn't simple, either.
22:48 < electrograv> then what are you saying?
22:48 < Tv> electrograv: go has made several choices to not even allow the
non-default behavior
22:48 < electrograv> I'm perfectly open to criticism here but I'm just
curious
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22:48 < Tv> electrograv: e.g.  you *must* put trailing commas in certain
places, even if some other language might make them optional
22:48 < Tv> all in the same of simplicity, predictability, what not
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22:48 < electrograv> predictability is good
22:48 < electrograv> what about select then
22:49 < Namegduf> electrograv: What I said is...
22:49 < Namegduf> It had no proven benefit or effect, with the performance
idea you're mentioning untested and with no reason to believe it was measurable.
22:49 < electrograv> it uses a fair-chance random behavior, which we are not
aware of
22:49 < crazy2be> How can i parse a time string like
2010-10-17T21:04:54.082Z?
22:49 < Tv> electrograv: what about /dev/random then?
22:49 < Namegduf> Go is supposed to be simple.  This is one of its goals.
22:49 < electrograv> you could say that "trash", like select, has a random
behaviour (that indidentally isnt precicely defined in the specification)
22:49 < crazy2be> i can't seem to figure out how to do it with the time
pacakge
22:49 < crazy2be> it's almost RFC3339
22:50 < crazy2be> but not quite
22:50 < Tv> crazy2be: that's called an ISO-8601 datetime, try time.Parse
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22:50 < Tv> crazy2be: oh
22:50 < Namegduf> As such, a suggestion that increases complexity, including
by addition of new keywords or rules, must provide a benefit.
22:50 < electrograv> also there is a proven benefit to not initializing huge
vectors to 0 before reassigning them
22:50 < electrograv> Go is a systems programming language, thats why im
interested in it as opposed to Java
22:50 < electrograv> for example
22:51 < Namegduf> electrograv: No there isn't.
22:51 < electrograv> performance is a critical feature of go
22:51 < crazy2be> benchmark it
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22:51 < Namegduf> Or, rather, the size of that benefit is utterly unproven.
22:51 < crazy2be> see if there;s a major, compelling performance gain
22:51 < cbeck> correctness >> performance
22:51 < Namegduf> It's not a complicated thing.
22:51 < crazy2be> then make your case on the mailing-list
22:51 < Namegduf> It's just a cost/benefit comparison.
22:51 < Tv> crazy2be: have you tried defining your own layout?
22:51 < Namegduf> You figure out the benefit of the proposal, and put that
forward
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22:52 < crazy2be> Tv: How do i do that?  I can't figure it out from the docs
22:52 < Namegduf> And then it is compared against the cost in terms of
complexity.
22:52 < Tv> crazy2be: they're just strings, see the examples like RFC3339
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22:52 < Tv> crazy2be: i'm not sure how they're interpreted myself
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22:53 < electrograv> ok then maybe you can suggest an improved design for
me, I'll explain the situation:
22:54 < Tv> crazy2be: ah see stdLongMonth & friends in format.go
22:54 < Tv> crazy2be: basically, the "3" in the layout will always be hours
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22:54 < electrograv> I'm allocating dynamically and processing huge arrays
of n-dimensional points
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22:55 < electrograv> each set of points is not necessarily the same
cardinality/size
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22:55 < Tv> electrograv: you can reuse them as long as the sizes are <=
actual space allocated
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22:56 < electrograv> when a new set of points is generated, it is illegal
for them all to be zero technically, and doesnt make sense in the context of the
application - they are generated based on computations
22:56 < electrograv> theres no way to define an upper limit on the size of
points of a given set other than they will probably be less than 10 million
22:56 < Tv> electrograv: and Vectors can be extended without recreating from
scratch
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22:56 < electrograv> and they may be as small as a few thousand
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#go-nuts
22:56 < electrograv> the size of a set never changes after creation
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22:57 < electrograv> it will be created with size n from a generative
algorithm, processed, then destroyed
22:57 < Namegduf> Use slices, not vectors, then.
22:57 < electrograv> but you have to understand that sets are being created
with size anywhere from 1000 - 1000000 often
22:57 < Namegduf> Yes, I do.
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22:58 < electrograv> I could write my own memory manager / set pool - yes
22:58 < Namegduf> And what you should do is let them be zero-initialised.
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22:58 < Namegduf> This is ridiculous scale premature optimisation
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22:59 < KBme> powerje: connection problems?  :P
22:59 < powerje> Yeah apparently
22:59 < electrograv> I guess I should just benchmark this in C
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22:59 < KBme> heh
22:59 < electrograv> maybe there isnt much difference
22:59 < electrograv> but I wouldnt know because I dont zero multiple
megabyte arrays
23:00 < Namegduf> Right, exactly.
23:00 < electrograv> rather I fill them with the correct non-zero values
23:00 < Namegduf> Before panicing over a need to optimise something, see how
significant it is.
23:00 < electrograv> this has to be very very fast though, so a few
milliseconds is critical though
23:00 < electrograv> but maybe it's not even that
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23:01 < Namegduf> Find out, then see what options are for improvement, and
their relative costs.
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23:02 < electrograv> I like the idea / safety of go zeroing all variables
for normal use
23:03 < electrograv> I'm just a little uncertain about large arrays...  but
I guess I should benchmark it
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#go-nuts
23:03 < Tv> electrograv: no, let's rather debate it for a day..
23:03 < electrograv> ha
23:04 < electrograv> good idea, lets make subjective arguments as to why
optimization is always better regardless of how much improvement it is given the
costs it imposes in code complexity
23:04 < Namegduf> XD
23:17 < Tv> hrmph function literals don't match types that the same thing
defined as an actual function does :(
23:18 < KBme> looks like go can't use more than one of my cores at once?
23:18 < Tv> KBme: gcc-based compiler is limited, the plan9-flavored one can,
but currently needs to be manually told it's ok
23:19 < KBme> ohh?
23:19 < KBme> what's the flag?
23:19 < Namegduf> Tv: Are you sure?
23:19 < Namegduf> What's the type error?
23:19 < Tv> KBme: http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#parallel
23:19 < Tv> Namegduf: double-checking for typos..
23:19 < KBme> thanks
23:20 < Tv> Namegduf: ahh i'm confused, i had my "really-defined function"
using the type abstraction in the declaration.
23:21 < Tv> Namegduf: kinda fugly though..  i added the type to clarify &
document, but now it's forcing my callers to cargo cult it exactly that way
23:21 < KBme> hell yea :)
23:21 < Namegduf> "type abstraction"?
23:21 < Tv> Namegduf: basically func (foo) bar where foo and bar are also
functions got unreadable
23:21 < Namegduf> Ah.
23:21 < Tv> Namegduf: so i created a new type for foo
23:22 < Tv> well actually
23:22 < Tv> i have type baz func (foo) bar
23:22 < Tv> and you can't directly declare functions to be baz
23:22 < Tv> and that is why this sucks
23:23 < Namegduf> It isn't, unfortunately, a "type abstracton", but a
distinct type.
23:23 < Namegduf> I think an assignment-compatible one, though.
23:24 < Tv> Namegduf: yeah i know..  and it's fine when used in args &
return types, but i can't just define a whole function to be of that type
23:24 < Tv> oh well it's not *too* unreadable to spell it out
23:26 < electrograv> are compilers able to inline Go functions?
23:27 < Namegduf> Not yet, but there's no reason they can't in future.
23:27 < Namegduf> It's just not implemented yet.
23:27 < electrograv> ok
23:31 < Tv> i still don't understand why channels send a zero value before
closing
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23:43 < Namegduf> Tv: Because otherwise, you have no way to avoid trying to
read from a closed channel sometimes.
23:43 < Namegduf> And blocking, potentially.
23:44 < Namegduf> Checking if it's closed before reading introduces a race
condition, and you can't have v, closed := <-ch syntax, because that's already
used for non-blocking reads.
23:44 < skelterjohn> much to my dismay.
23:44 < Namegduf> That's my understanding, anyway.
23:45 < skelterjohn> currently there is no way to have multiple goroutines
reading from a single channel without some external or artificial synchronization
23:45 < skelterjohn> having to do with when the channel is closed
23:45 < Namegduf> If the channel can close, yeah.
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23:45 < skelterjohn> and by 'currently' i mean 'last i checked' which isn't
all that recently
23:46 < Namegduf> The trick that comes to my mind is to make zero values
illegal to send, then send number of readers-1 zeroes before closing, having each
treat zero as a closing value.
23:46 < Namegduf> But that requires knowing the reader count.
23:47 < skelterjohn> if you try to read from a closed channel you just get a
zero, i believe
23:48 < Namegduf> Ah, is that defined?
23:48 < Namegduf> That makes sense.
23:48 < skelterjohn> yeah - and just tested it
23:48 < Namegduf> So what happens if there's three blocked reading, and it
gets closed?
23:48 < Namegduf> They all get a zero?
23:48 < skelterjohn> to make sure i didn't put my foot in my mouth
23:48 < skelterjohn> i believe so, yes
23:48 < Namegduf> Seems like that'd work okay, then.
23:49 < skelterjohn> as long as zero is a value that is otherwise
illegitimate
23:49 < Namegduf> Well, can't they check closed after getting a zero?
23:50 < skelterjohn> yes, but if there are two, and one gets a legit zero,
and then they both check closed()...  :)
23:50 < skelterjohn> who got it?  the information is lost.
23:50 < Namegduf> Ah, I see what you mean.
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23:50 < Namegduf> With multiple readers, zero needs to just be illegal.
23:50 < Namegduf> If it can close.
23:50 < Namegduf> Which is "fun".
23:51 < skelterjohn> you can set up some heavier infrastructure to be more
flexible
23:52 < skelterjohn> but it's a pain
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 25 00:00:12 2010