--- Log opened Thu Oct 28 00:00:13 2010
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00:09 < nsf> I've just noticed that a lot of Go cgo-based bindings do this:
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00:09 < nsf> type MyGoType struct { c *MyCType; }
00:09 < nsf> and then:
00:09 < nsf> func (t *MyGoType) Whatever() { ...  }
00:10 < nsf> a very stupid idea imho
00:10 < nsf> var t MyGoType; t.Whatever();
00:10 < nsf> moves 't' to the heap
00:10 < nsf> because in order to call the method the address of 't' must be
obtained
00:11 < nsf> + one unnecessary dereference
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00:13 < nsf> I'd punish Russ for doing that in gosqlite
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00:14 < nsf> gtk-go does that as well
00:15 < nsf> now I perfectly understand why C has both '.' and '->' for
accessing fields
00:16 < nsf> although it's ugly, it has some point
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00:33 < nsf> gocairo, same problem..  pointer to a struct of pointers as
method receiver
00:34 < nsf> gopcap, same
00:35 < adu> interesting
00:35 < adu> I was considering doing exactly that for my go bindings
00:35 < nsf> gotyrant too
00:35 < adu> how would you do it?
00:35 < adu> type MyGoType MyCType?
00:35 < nsf> if C type is a pointer type and needs to be wrapped
00:36 < nsf> type MyGoStruct { C *MyCType }
00:36 < nsf> and then
00:36 < nsf> oops
00:36 < nsf> type MyGoType struct { C *MyCType }
00:36 < nsf> and then:
00:36 < nsf> func (t MyGoType) Method() { ...  }
00:37 < nsf> 'C' field must be public, because otherwise you can't copy
around that structure
00:37 < nsf> and it can't be a simple 'type MyGoType *MyCType'
00:38 < nsf> because you can't use MyGoType as method receiver
00:38 < nsf> for some reason
00:38 < nsf> see gollvm bindings, I think I get it right
00:39 < adu> for some reason?
00:39 < nsf> yep
00:39 < adu> why not?
00:39 < nsf> well, it's in the spec
00:39 < nsf> but I don't know the reason why it is that way :)
00:39 < adu> can't you say (*pointer).method()
00:40 < adu> granted, its ugly, but i'm pretty sure its possible
00:40 < nsf> that's not what I mean
00:40 < nsf> go won't allow you to use 'type MyGoType *MyCType' as method
receiver
00:41 < adu> what about 'type MyGoType MyCType'
00:41 < nsf> adu: I think in works in case it is possible
00:42 < nsf> LLVM case has this: LLVMValueRef, which is a 'typedef struct
LLVMValueOpaque *LLVMValueRef;'
00:42 < nsf> in other words it's 'void*'
00:42 < nsf> anyways, wrapping it to a struct is not a big deal
00:43 < nsf> adu: and I think you can't do that either
00:43 < nsf> because 'type MyGoType C.MyCType'
00:43 < nsf> C.MyCType then gets converted to something else
00:44 < nsf> and for some reason (again) Go doesn't allow you to do that
00:44 < nsf> but maybe I'm wrong
00:44 < nsf> the details don't matter
00:45 < nsf> the thing that matters here is to avoid unnecessary pointer
receiver
00:45 < nsf> because it always will take an address of a variable, which is
on the stack..  and it means moving to heap
00:46 < nsf> it's ok for big objects, but if the object is a wrapped pointer
00:46 < nsf> it's just a waste of cycles
00:46 < nsf> and potential performance problem
00:47 < nsf> although in that case I believe overhead of a cgo call is much
bigger than pointer dereference :)
00:47 < nsf> but it can smaller than allocation on the other hand
00:48 < nsf> adu: 'type MyGoType MyCType' works, yeah
00:48 < nsf> in case if MyCType is a struct
00:48 < adu> ok
00:49 < nsf> The receiver type must be of the form T or *T where T is a type
name.  T is called the receiver base type or just base type.  The base type must
not be a pointer or interface type and must be declared in the same package as the
method.
00:49 < nsf> that's what spec says
00:49 < nsf> the 'base type' is the most interesting
00:49 < nsf> part
00:50 < adu> i see
00:50 < nsf> again, if you have access to a struct, then it's perfect..  you
can use it (like SDL does for example)
00:51 < nsf> but often C APIs use "opaque pointer to data" for incapsulation
00:51 < adu> so do they convert to (*void) when exposed to Go?
00:52 < nsf> as far as I know, cgo uses *[0]byte type for void*
00:53 < nsf> the main point here that it's a pointer type
00:53 < nsf> and you can't use pointer type as a receiver base type
00:53 < nsf> in theory:
00:53 < nsf> func (pt PtrType)
00:53 < nsf> is the same as:
00:53 < nsf> func (pt *Type)
00:53 < adu> right
00:53 < nsf> in practice, the first one is now allowed by the spec
00:54 < nsf> for some reason, I'm not sure I understand it
00:55 < nsf> I guess it's because of the possible ambiguity
00:55 < nsf> 'A.Whatever()' stands for:
00:55 < nsf> 1.  deref A and call Whatever
00:56 < nsf> 2.  call Whatever
00:56 < nsf> 1 or 2
00:56 < nsf> so, if you use a pointer as base type
00:56 < nsf> like:
00:56 < nsf> type PtrType Type
00:57 < nsf> and then you have let's say method string for both PtrType and
*Type
00:57 < nsf> func (*Type) String()
00:57 < nsf> func (PtrType) String()
00:57 < nsf> var t *Type
00:57 < nsf> t.String() // ambigous
00:57 < nsf> I guess that't the reason behind that restriction
00:58 < nsf> or wait
00:58 < nsf> hm..
00:58 < nsf> t is *Type and not PtrType
00:58 < nsf> i don't know then :D
01:00 < nsf> ah..
01:00 < nsf> I see
01:00 < nsf> or not :|
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01:03 < nsf> it's quite confusing
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01:10 < uriel> does anyone have a link to that book about Go in german?
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01:25 < nsf> yay!  release with the ParseExpr fix
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01:28 < nsf> uriel: you gonna love this:
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01:28 < nsf> * misc: update python scripts to specify python2 as python3 is
now "python".
01:31 < uriel> nsf: what is that changelog from?
01:31 < nsf> uriel: surprisingly - Go release
01:31 < uriel> haha
01:32 < uriel> well, I'm just happy i use python less and less, and Go more
and more ;P
01:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gnpS5 by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/src/pkg/rpc/
-- rpc: expose Server type to allow multiple RPC Server instances
01:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gnpSe by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/devel/ --
release.2010-10-27
01:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gnpSv by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- tag
release.2010-10-27
01:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gnpSS by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- retag release to
avoid hg bug
01:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gnpT9 by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/src/ --
gc: implement append
01:35 < nsf> hehehe
01:35 < uriel> yay append!  \o/
01:35 < nsf> and right after the release
01:35 < nsf> 'append'
01:35 < nsf> >_<
01:36 < uriel> i think they didn't want to have too many big changes in a
single release, and there was plenty of stuff already in this one
01:36 < nsf> therefore I can't use it in gocode and other public projects,
because they should be in sync with 'release' branch
01:36 < uriel> they also held back a couple of other things
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01:36 < uriel> well, have some patience for a week or so ;P
01:36 < nsf> :)
01:38 < nsf> nice, ParseExpr works
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01:45 < uriel> nf: you should delete the link to the lang_faq here:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/about
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01:54 < adu> yea totally broken
01:56 < nsf> gotris segfaults :(
01:57 < nsf> gomandel as well, probably a bug in Go-SDL/Go-OpenGL, or simply
I've screwed up something
01:58 < nsf> can anyone test it?  confirm it?
01:59 < nsf> SDL works just fine
01:59 < nsf> every Go-OpenGL app crashes
02:00 < nsf> glxgears works just fine (not a driver problem)
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02:01 < nsf> lol
02:01 < nsf> gotris works under gdb
02:01 < nsf> but segfaults without it
02:01 < nsf> I believe it's some kind of a bug in recent debugger support
work
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02:05 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1254374
02:05 < nsf> I mean seriously
02:05 < nsf> isn't that strange?
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02:08 < nsf> it dies before main()
02:11 < adu> interesting
02:11 < nsf> indeed
02:14 < skelterjohn> do you have to use gccgo to use gdb?
02:14 < nsf> I don't use gccgo
02:15 < nsf> and I think you can't use gdb currently with 8g/6g
02:15 < nsf> well, you can
02:15 < skelterjohn> gdm ./gotris?
02:15 < nsf> but it won't display any useful info
02:15 < skelterjohn> gdb, that is
02:15 < skelterjohn> I see.
02:15 < uriel> 8g/6g support for gdb has improved a lot
02:15 < nsf> uriel: with bugs
02:15 < skelterjohn> uriel: is there any doc on it?
02:15 < uriel> I think it is not complete yet, but getting closer
02:15 < uriel> skelterjohn: docs on what?
02:16 < skelterjohn> i dunno - do you need a special compiler flag, like
gcc?
02:16 < nsf> gotris doesn't work without 'gdb', it's not that kind of
"support" I want
02:16 < uriel> I don't know, nor do I want to learn, to use gdb, but I don't
think there is necessarily anything special to Go
02:16 < nsf> :D
02:16 < nsf> well, probably it's OpenGL does something
02:16 * uriel is of the print school of debuggers
02:17 < nsf> because opengl in linux is a pile of hacks
02:17 < skelterjohn> i do not like using gdb, but having GUI debuggers is
very nice
02:17 < uriel> is there anything in linux that is not a pile o hacks?  (in
fairness, the same is true of every other OS)
02:17 < skelterjohn> and someone with some time could probably turn gdb+go
source into a gui
02:18 < nsf> uriel: well, if it touches X11, then it's a big pile of hacks
02:18 < nsf> :D
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02:19 < adu> uriel: print is awsome
02:19 < uriel> nsf: for very big values of 'big'
02:20 < adu> uriel: BeOS was not hacks
02:20 < nsf> uriel: about print debugging, you should have seen how I was
tracking down bugs in runtime.LockOSThread() in Go :D
02:20 < uriel> BeOS was c++, that is enough of a hack
02:20 < nsf> two days of dropping print statements here and there :D
02:20 < adu> BeOS was truly and magnificently engineered
02:21 * uriel rolls eyes
02:21 < uriel> (of course, compared to the competition, anything could have
been considered 'magnificently engineered')
02:21 < nsf> adu: I know nothing about BeOS, but I've seen the APIs of Haiku
02:21 < nsf> they are horrible
02:21 < adu> well, Haiku is a mere shadow of the glory of BeOS
02:22 < uriel> nsf: take a look at the Plan 9 apis, they are in many places
very close to the Go stdlib ;)
02:22 < adu> but ya, very KDE-ish
02:22 < uriel> when I saw Go had no sockets and used dial() instead, I was
crying with joy
02:22 < adu> in fact, i wonder if the KDE crowd got much inspiration from Be
02:23 < adu> plan9++
02:23 < adu> uriel: have you played with inferno?
02:26 < uriel> adu: certainly
02:26 < uriel> sadly, it is rather dead and bitrotten this days, still is
quite neat, the port to the nintendo ds for example is quite awesome
02:26 < uriel> (it is perfect for that kind of thing, because it needs no
mmu)
02:28 < adu> bitrot
02:28 < adu> makes me laugh every time i hear that
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02:40 * nsf have just added 'append' support in gocode
02:40 < nsf> :P
02:40 < nsf> s/have/has/
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02:52 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gnw0Q by [Russ Cox] in 24 subdirs of go/src/
-- use append
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02:56 < nsf> "Showing 32 changed files with 110 additions and 405
deletions."
02:56 < nsf> hehe, nice
02:56 < nsf> -300 loc
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03:06 < uriel> i love how Go code is becoming leaner and leaner
03:06 < Tv> nsf: coolest thing ever will be the global gofmt runs after
.append() is released
03:07 < Tv> (i'm kidding, i don't think gofmt will be quite up for that job
;)
03:07 < nsf> no, it's all should be done by hand
03:07 < nsf> I'm doing it right now in private branches for all of my
projects :)
03:10 < uriel> first we got rid of ;, then we got copy() (and now an even
better copy!), simplified composite literals, append() ...
03:10 < uriel> (and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few more)
03:10 < nsf> new semantics for '...'
03:10 < Tv> things i've missed from python: yield, generator expressions
03:11 < uriel> Tv: ?
03:11 < Tv> uriel: are you asking what those are?
03:11 < uriel> Tv: goroutines+ channels are so much better than yeild and
generators
03:11 < nsf> and slower :)
03:11 < uriel> I know what they are, I just wonder why anyone would want
them in go
03:11 < Tv> uriel: people keep saying channels have fairly high overhead
03:11 < uriel> Tv: who keeps saying that?
03:11 < Tv> uriel: who doesn't?
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03:11 < uriel> I don't
03:12 < Tv> uriel: i mean, exp/iterable got removed, for that reason
03:12 < uriel> of course 'high' is relative, but the overhead is pretty
trivial for most things
03:12 < uriel> exp/iterable was an experiment
03:13 < Tv> It is an interesting demonstration, but it encourages
03:13 < Tv> people to use iteration over channels where simple
03:13 < Tv> iteration over array indices or a linked list would be
03:13 < Tv> cheaper, simpler, and have fewer races.
03:13 < Tv> i want to e.g.  isolate the caller from the fact that i'm
handing over items from a linked list of arrays, or something like that
03:14 < Tv> right now it seems the best i can do is return a function that
when called returns the next element
03:14 < nsf> I have a first question regarding 'append'
03:14 < Tv> it's a bit clumsy
03:14 < nsf> var a []string
03:14 < nsf> a = append(a, "blabla")
03:14 < nsf> will it work?
03:15 < nsf> e.g.  appending to a nil slice
03:16 < uriel> nsf: hmmmmm...  I think so, but now I'm wondering
03:16 < nsf> yep, it works
03:16 < nsf> as test app shows
03:16 < nsf> nice..
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03:41 <@nf> very neato
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06:55 < cbeck> Hrm, someone trying to use append in the latest pull is
breaking things
06:55 < cbeck> Hm
06:56 < cbeck> hg log shows rsc pushing two changes, one to implement,
another to use append
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07:16 < nsf>
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/493b0f31e58cf5aa
07:16 < nsf> quite an interesting topic
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07:18 < nsf> imho adding gccgo to gcc 4.6 will simply enable tons of
confusion and compatibility pain
07:18 < nsf> or no one will use it
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08:19 <@nf> nsf: my guess (and it's an uninformed one) is that it's better
to start the process
08:20 <@nf> nsf: note that it's just the compiler, not the libraries (i'm
sure) or the runtime (i think)
08:20 < nsf> it's all together, it's a distribution :)
08:21 < nsf> and when there are two ways to get the compiler enviroment
08:21 < nsf> extra effort is required to keep them in sync
08:21 < nsf> otherwise - incompatibility and confusion
08:21 <@nf> but gcc is separate to libc, right?
08:21 < nsf> :)
08:22 < nsf> in my distro gcc package ships with libstdc++
08:22 < nsf> glibc is a separate thing, yes
08:23 < nsf> but let's take runtime for example
08:23 < nsf> it is compiler specific
08:23 < nsf> and at the same time it's a part of the standard library
08:23 < nsf> means gccgo will be shipped with the standard library
08:23 < nsf> also things like syscall use asm
08:23 < nsf> asm is compiler specific
08:24 < nsf> etc.
08:26 < nsf> and even if the library will be a separate entity
08:26 < nsf> it's just another source of incompatibility problems
08:27 <@nf> i understand what you're saying, but ian is a pretty sensible
guy.  i'm intersted to hear what he has to say
08:27 < nsf> I've never heard from him, why is he doing the gccgo in the
first place
08:29 < nsf> well, it can be interesting
08:29 < nsf> but other than that
08:29 < nsf> I'm not sure :)
08:30 < nsf> and if go will be popular enough, we'll see an LLVM based
compiler in next 5 years I believe
08:31 < nsf> and..
08:31 < nsf> we have an interpreter for Go on windows
08:31 < nsf> does anyone use it?  :)
08:32 < exch> Does anyone use widows?  :p
08:32 < nsf> exch: you'd be surprised :)
08:36 <@nf> gofrontend is not just gccgo
08:37 <@nf> he's written it to be a general-purpose go front-end
08:37 <@nf> (and i believe is working on making it more general at the
moment)
08:37 < nsf> well, that's nice
08:37 <@nf> quite a few times the divergences between gc and gccgo have
caught assumptions we've made, and helped us strengthen the language spec.  that
alone is very valuable
08:37 < nsf> yep
08:38 < nsf> in fact I understand why it is important to have more than one
frontend for the language
08:38 < nsf> but why gcc :)
08:39 < nsf> gcc itself has to much politics for such a fast moving language
08:39 < nsf> s/to/too/
08:40 <@nf> gcc is a popular compiler, ian has worked on gcc for many years,
and he decided to write a go front-end
08:40 < nsf> i see
08:40 <@nf> that's about the whole story :)
08:41 < mpl> heh we could always ask if the intel guys want to make an igo
compiler :)
08:42 < nsf> I'd like to see a work on the new GC, because there are very
few people who are actually capable of doing that
08:43 < nsf> maybe it's worth looking at mono's new GC
08:43 < nsf> they have implemented it finally in 2.8
08:43 < exch> So soon?  :p
08:44 < exch> That should be a good indication of just how difficult it is
to get a decent GC up and running
08:44 < nsf> soon what?  :)
08:44 < nsf> yeah
08:44 < nsf> they've spent 5 years or so
08:44 < exch> It took them until version 2.8 to get it in
08:44 < nsf> doint it
08:44 < nsf> doing*
08:45 < nsf> but Go is much simpler than C#
08:45 < nsf> :)
08:45 < nsf> and the whole CLR thing I guess
08:51 * exch likey the simplified composit literals
08:51 < nsf> I haven't used them much
08:51 < nsf> I like 'append' thing more
08:51 < exch> yes, that is nice
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08:53 < exch> I wonder what exactly it does.  If it's a generic approach for
all slices, I can see it performing a bit more operations than the old fashioned
manual append.  It should therefor theoretically be slightly slower than the
manual approach
08:53 < exch> I guess the tradeof is worth it though
08:53 < nsf> it can be optimized in future
08:54 < nsf> possibly when Go will have generics
08:54 < nsf> in that case the semantics is much more important
08:54 < exch> I think append() is one less reason to get generics :)
08:54 < nsf> no, it's one more reason to get generics :)
08:54 < nsf> it's just a temporary measure
08:55 < nsf> but I guess some people just don't want generics in Go
08:56 < nsf> I'm partly one of them (because it will add lots of complexity
to the Go and my gocode project :D)
08:56 < exch> I don't have a lot of use for them anymore, with the exception
of the manual slice management, but I can see them being useful in some cases
08:57 < nsf> I'd like to see things like binary search as a part of the
library
08:57 <@nf> i'd like to see generics done well in go
08:57 < nsf> and frankly there is only one way I know, which allows us to
have generic binary search for both slices and trees
08:57 < nsf> "templates" >_<
08:58 < nsf> oops
08:58 < nsf> fast optimal generic binary search*
08:58 < nsf> that's more correct :)
09:00 < nsf> hehe, goclipse guys are interested in gocode integration
09:00 < nsf> that's nice
09:01 < nsf> and still no one wants to do that for emacs :\
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09:06 <@adg> i don't know many go programmers who use emacs
09:07 < nsf> emacs is statistically second popular editor for programming
09:07 < nsf> so, it's odd :)
09:07 < nsf> Ian uses emacs
09:08 < nsf> as far as I know
09:09 < nsf> I'm sure there are many more emacsers out there, they are
hiding :)
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09:15 < Gertm> <- emacser
09:16 < Gertm> emacs + go-mode + flymake works kinda well, it's nice
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09:29 < TheSeeker> Still no go-beans plugin for netbeans?
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09:31 < exch> gofmt -s misses a few composit literal instances
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09:32 < exch> "str_esc_tab = [2][]byte{[]byte("\\t"), []byte{'\t'}}" ->
"str_esc_tab = [2][]byte{[]byte("\\t"), {'\t'}}"
09:34 < exch> oh wait
09:34 < exch> durr
09:40 < TheSeeker> ooh, new win32 builds.  *tests goinstall*
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13:55 < geoffos> anybody out there?
13:56 < geoffos> I have a simple question, but seem unable to find the
answer
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13:57 < geoffos> I have the start of a simple app, but would now like to
split the code across several files, but I seem unable to do so :~(
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14:00 < geoffos> anybody have any ideas?
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14:04 < geoffos_> hello
14:04 < geoffos_> anybody listening?
14:06 < KBme> geoffos_: just read the docs
14:06 < KBme> what is your issue
14:06 < KBme> paste the compiler output or something at least, otherwise
noone will answer
14:06 < geoffos_> I am attempting to separate my code into several files to
make life a bit easier
14:07 < geoffos_> but even though I have not changed the package name I
cannot get 8g to work
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14:07 < geoffos_> I have had a look at the docs and it does not seem to
cover this, or I am a bit stupid
14:07 < geoffos_> (provably the latter)
14:12 < geoffos_> example of my code: http://pastie.org/1255548
14:13 < yiyus> geoffos_: what do you mean by "I cannot get 8g to work"?
what's the output you get?
14:13 < geoffos_> The output Is
14:13 < geoffos_> #spider.go:5: main.processServers undefined (type func()
has no field or method processServers)
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14:16 < yiyus> what command are you running?
14:16 < yiyus> 8g spider.go spin.go ?
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14:17 < geoffos_> yes (and I have tried 8g spin.go spider.go)
14:20 < geoffos_> grrr
14:21 < geoffos_> private functions are lower case and public functions
14:21 < geoffos_> start upper case?
14:22 < geoffos_> This seems to work: http://pastie.org/1255580
14:25 < yiyus> that's weird, you should be able to use private functions
from the same package
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14:26 < KBme> as you can see, his package name is main, which is probably
wrong?
14:27 < yiyus> no, it is fine
14:27 < geoffos_> I agree, ideally I do not want to use main, but when i
changed this 8g could not find the init function (default example is func main())
14:29 < yiyus> for example, this works: http://pastie.org/1255596
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14:44 < geoffos_> How should you go about changing the package name?
14:48 < KBme> change that package line at the top of your files
14:49 < geoffos_> I do that, and I get - 8l: spider.8: not package main
(package spider)
14:49 < geoffos_> mainstart: undefined: main.init
14:49 < KBme> geoffos_: please paste your code
14:49 < geoffos_> the original is: http://pastie.org/1255580
14:50 < KBme> and so what is the error of 8g spin.go spider.go?
14:51 < geoffos_> no error the error is on running 8l
14:51 < geoffos_> updated code is here: http://pastie.org/1255650
14:52 < KBme> yes, well, binaries need to be package main
14:53 < KBme> so you would put your main function in a source where you
define package main with an import of spider
14:53 < KBme> what about when the package name is main, what's the error
then?
14:53 < geoffos_> no error when called main
14:53 < KBme> …
14:55 < geoffos_> so for ease I just call everything main then?
14:55 < KBme> you can do taht yes
14:55 < geoffos_> ok
14:55 < KBme> or you can make a library (spider) and an executable with just
the function main that starts your library's stuff
14:56 < geoffos_> hmmm - maybe do that after this is all working :-)
14:56 < KBme> however you feel.
14:56 < KBme> for me, i usually just do a library, with an executable (main)
in the examples directory
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14:57 < geoffos_> for now i think simple steps are best
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15:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/goD9L by [Robert Griesemer] in go/test/ --
test for append() built-in
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15:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/goGhb by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/doc/ -- godoc: bug fix (bug introduced with revision 3ee58453e961)
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17:47 < cbeck> Anyone else getting undefined: append errors when trying to
build latest release?
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17:48 < raylu> there seems to be some encoding error:
https://pastee.org/mdrf2
17:49 < raylu> the output of that differs from: curl -A Mozilla/5.0
"http://translate.google.com/translate_a/t?client=t&hl=ja&sl=ja&tl=en-U&text=こんにちは"
17:49 < raylu> specifically, the go program outputs: [[["こんにちは","こんにちは","こã
S ã ~O ã . ã ~Tsu"]],,"ja"]
17:50 < raylu> and curl outputs: [[["こんにちは","こんにちは","Kon'nichiwa"]],,"ja"]
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17:55 < skelterjohn> what on earth are you talking about
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18:02 < raylu> skelterjohn: er, sorry.  what part of that didn't make sense?
18:02 < skelterjohn> the japanese :)
18:03 < raylu> the japanese is fine.  it's the transliteration that's not
18:03 < raylu> the outputs are identical except the "Kon'nichiwa", which is
what i want
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18:21 < raylu> actually, i think the problem is that google does something
different when it see's Go's user-agent of "Go http package"
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18:35 < raylu> indeed, that was the problem.  https://pastee.org/k6f3u fixes
it
18:38 < TheSeeker> so the next question is, what was it returning different
when it was seeing the Go useragent?  presumably it should have been something
easier for Go to work with directly?
18:38 < raylu> uh...  no.  it's not actually an official api, so it's not
even documented
18:39 < raylu> if you provide: User-Agent: curl/7.21.0 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
libcurl/7.21.0 OpenSSL/0.9.8o zlib/1.2.3.4 libidn/1.15 libssh2/1.2.5\r\n
18:39 < raylu> you get a 403.
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18:43 < raylu> though i suppose it is possible that it defaulted to some
non-utf-8 encoding even though it sent a utf-8 header
18:44 < raylu> oh, actually, Content-Type: text/javascript;
charset=Shift_JIS
18:44 < raylu> certainly not easier for Go to work with, though
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18:56 < tdnrad> Figured I'd give Go a shot.  Is there a commonly used IDE
for Go or should I just do things the old emacs/vi way?  Has anyone any opinions
on goclipse?
18:57 < KBme> tdnrad: there are plugins (syntax highlighting afaik) for both
vi and emacs too, if that's more confortable for ya
18:57 < KBme> (in $GOROOT/misc)
18:58 < tdnrad> KBme: excellent, thanks
18:59 * raylu has (negative) opinions about eclipse in general
18:59 < tdnrad> raylu: Eclipse has its moments.
18:59 < raylu> yeah, when the refactor button works, that's true.
19:00 < raylu> TheSeeker: by the way, that "api" returns shift_jis encoded
output whenever it doesn't recognize the user-agent, as i just discovered
19:00 < raylu> so, thanks for being a sounding board, everyone, and sorry
for the spam :P
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19:08 < skelterjohn> i like eclipse for java or C++ code
19:08 < skelterjohn> i haven't tried it for go, don't really feel the need
to try it, either
19:09 < skelterjohn> unless somehow eclipse linked its GUI debugger up to go
code, that would be awesome
19:11 < tdnrad> Any recommendations on using gccgo or gc?
19:12 < MaksimBurnin> skelterjohn: autocompletion for go code is my dream,
but i hate eclipse, i want it for netbeans
19:12 < skelterjohn> tdnrad: I use whatever the included makefiles use (6g
in my case)
19:12 < fuzzybyte> don't even bother to try.  the goclipse plugin is still
sucky.
19:13 < tdnrad> MaksimBurnin: NetBeans?  eww, that's owned by Oracle now ;)
19:13 < skelterjohn> Something being owned by Oracle doesn't make it
instantly bad - it just means it will never improve.
19:13 < tdnrad> hahaha, well put
19:13 < skelterjohn> and stands a chance at getting worse
19:13 < MaksimBurnin> tdnrad: so?  it works faster than eclipse for me
19:13 < tdnrad> LibreBeans anyone?
19:14 < tdnrad> MaksimBurnin: I know I know, it's a nice fast IDE, was just
picking on Oracle.
19:16 < MaksimBurnin> tdnrad: when i find something better with
c/cpp,php,js,xslt support, i'll instantly switch to this IDE
19:16 < TheSeeker> isn't there a commercial go IDE for netbeans out there?
19:17 < MaksimBurnin> TheSeeker: there is a commercial netbeans plugin for
go
19:17 < MaksimBurnin> but its unfinished
19:18 < MaksimBurnin> and has lack of features
19:19 < skelterjohn> commercial plugin?  or a plugin for the commercial
version of netbeans?
19:19 < skelterjohn> i can't imagine someone selling a go plugin yet
19:20 < MaksimBurnin> http://www.winsoft.sk/Go.htm
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19:21 < skelterjohn> not worth $25
19:21 < skelterjohn> if all it does is provide syntax highlighting
19:21 < skelterjohn> i don't even know what the code templates would be
19:21 < skelterjohn> one of the things i really like about go is the lack of
required boiler plating that i had to do so much of with C++ and java
19:23 < MaksimBurnin> skelterjohn: you are right, but i still want
autocompletion, i love it
19:23 < skelterjohn> xcode kinda does autocompletion
19:23 < skelterjohn> sorta
19:23 < skelterjohn> it's not context sensitive
19:23 < skelterjohn> it just brings up other similar things you've typed in
the past
19:23 < skelterjohn> actually it's more annoying than it is helpful
19:24 < MaksimBurnin> :-D
19:24 < tdnrad> haha
19:24 < skelterjohn> because if you hit return while it's making a
suggestion, it inserts it
19:24 < skelterjohn> and i like return to give me a new line
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19:26 < TheSeeker> The one feature I like best about netbeans is clicking on
a varible name and having all the isntances of it that are in scope highlight
themselves on the scrollbar...  being able to click and go to a function
declaration, or find all instances of a particular function call is nice too...
19:26 < skelterjohn> eclipse does that too
19:26 < skelterjohn> before eclipse got popular, netbeans was pretty
terrible, in my opinion
19:27 < MaksimBurnin> its just a habit.  when you work with large projects
kinda 100k+ lines, its better to have autocompletion....
19:27 < TheSeeker> yeah, but I hate the eclipse interface :P
19:27 < skelterjohn> they borrowed a lot of eclipse's good ideas (and did
them more efficiently)
19:27 < TheSeeker> stole...  they shamelessly stole all the good ideas ;)
19:27 < Namegduf> I found that working out how to install the behemoth that
is Eclipse took longer than learning how to use vim well.
19:28 < Namegduf> (It doesn't appear to be packaged for Debian)
19:28 < skelterjohn> i like to be able to use the mouse when coding
19:28 < Namegduf> (Not completely, anyway)
19:30 < MaksimBurnin> i like to have a single editor for full keyboard
editing(for laptop) and keyboard+mouse(for desktop)
19:39 < tdnrad> I get annoyed by the fact that I like a different editor for
every language.
19:39 < tdnrad> Guess it's time to see what I'll learn for Go. :)
19:40 < MaksimBurnin> tdnrad: nothing to learn yet ;)
19:40 < tdnrad> Haha, I guess that is the point I should have picked up from
this discussion eh?
19:41 < KBme> eclipse is just so horribly slow, it's awful
19:42 < KBme> (also memory usage is pretty amazing)
19:42 < tdnrad> KBme: That's why I only use it for Java, I never notice the
difference ;)
19:45 < KBme> heh
19:46 < KBme> which i why i stay away from java like from fire or nukular
fission
19:48 < skelterjohn> if you're on a mac, xcode + a terminal works nicely
19:48 < skelterjohn> xcode can jump to functions, color keywords
19:49 < skelterjohn> and, uh, edit documents
19:49 < skelterjohn> dho: you around?
19:51 < TheSeeker> I guess the real question is, why hasn't anyone written a
Go IDE in Go yet?  ;p
19:52 < skelterjohn> GUI stuff is too underdeveloped
19:52 < TheSeeker> could gofmt be used as the basis for one?
19:52 < skelterjohn> but if someone did, i would use it almost
unconditionally
19:52 < skelterjohn> and it would have to have a big red "gofmt" button :)
19:53 < skelterjohn> i think it'd be great if someone developed a go-style
GUI library based on x11/draw
19:53 < skelterjohn> unfortunately i am not that someone
19:54 < cbeck> It certainly seems like nsf is building the pieces of one
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20:01 < TheSeeker> I'd rather it use SDL ...  since there are SDL libs for
windows.
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20:05 < TheSeeker> though, I could live with running a go IDE through Cygwin
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20:08 < skelterjohn> I like x11 because it doesn't involve any C code
20:08 < skelterjohn> just has to open sockes
20:08 < skelterjohn> sockets
20:08 < skelterjohn> less that can go wrong
20:08 < skelterjohn> kinda
20:09 < TheSeeker> rdp graphic interface?
20:09 < skelterjohn> what is rdp?
20:09 < MaksimBurnin> remote desktop
20:10 < exch> direct X11 probably interacts badly with the window manager,
which makes many people flail about themes and colourschemes
20:10 < skelterjohn> there is that
20:10 < exch> Specially if you have to handwrite all the actual UI controls
yourself
20:10 < skelterjohn> i just want something where all the hard work is done
for me :)
20:10 < TheSeeker> I thought Go coders *liked* re-inventing the wheel ;)
20:10 < skelterjohn> and looks the same on different platforms, modulo
themes and color schemes
20:11 < skelterjohn> TheSeeker: I wouldn't mind doing it myself if I had the
time
20:11 < skelterjohn> but such a project would be a massive derailment
20:11 * TheSeeker hides his prybar
20:11 < exch> I personally wou;dn't mind the ;ack of WM theme support
20:11 < exch> But writing a decent IDE is a metric tonne of work
20:12 < exch> Gedit suits me just fine :p
20:12 < skelterjohn> it's nice to have a language's IDE written in the
language, because then you can, in theory, use it anywhere the language compiles
20:13 < exch> The actual code edit textbox is also a non trivial enterprise.
You could go with something like scintilla, but that would have you go into C
interop again
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20:39 < KBme> acme works on all platforms, and has any unix command
integrated in it..
20:39 < KBme> :P
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20:44 < skelterjohn> acme is clunky looking
20:44 < skelterjohn> not enough drop-shadows
20:46 < cbeck> ...
20:47 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gp7PY by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/parser/ -- go/parser: use append
20:48 < skelterjohn> hard to be sure if i'm serious or not, isn't it?
20:49 < cbeck> especially in text
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20:50 < drd> drop-shadows are the design equivalent of cowbell?
20:50 < skelterjohn> acme seems to be in the vim/emacs family of editors,
though i haven't tried it
20:51 < skelterjohn> i watched the demo on youtube, though
20:52 < KBme> can run any shell comand in it, run part-or the entirety of a
file through a command
20:53 < KBme> basically that covers everything, kthxbye ;)
20:53 < KBme> not really like vi or emacs.  it can not be controlled through
keyboard, no modal editing
20:54 < KBme> but it uses teh mouse!
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20:55 < cbeck> I've heard good things, but emacs owns my heart
20:55 < KBme> i have intergrated any vcs, any formatter, any...
20:55 < KBme> and they are not some crappy reimplementation too
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20:55 < skelterjohn> maybe i'm wrong about acme
20:55 < skelterjohn> but it still doesn't seem particularly appealing
20:56 < KBme> no syntax highlighting
20:56 < cbeck> That's a bit of a deal breaker for me
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20:56 < skelterjohn> i don't mind it so much
20:57 < KBme> yeah, most people.  i don't see why syntax highlighting is so
important but eh
20:57 < skelterjohn> maybe if i didn't have it i'd miss it
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20:59 < KBme> ever tried to load a 1Gb file into eclipse?
21:00 < skelterjohn> ever written a 1GB source file?
21:01 < cbeck> If yes, you're doing it wrong
21:01 < KBme> nope, it was an input file i had to look at
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21:01 < KBme> why couldn't i do that in the same editor i write the code in?
21:02 < skelterjohn> because it's a code editor
21:02 < skelterjohn> not an input file viewer
21:02 < KBme> aaaanyways, acme (and probably vi and emacs) doesn't have an
issue with that
21:02 < skelterjohn> *shrug*
21:02 < KBme> also,
http://code.google.com/p/goplan9/source/browse/plan9/acme/acme.go ;)
21:02 < skelterjohn> my program creates an image - why can't i just load
that image into my code editor?
21:02 < KBme> because it's an image and not text?
21:03 < KBme> you an open it from an editor tho (at least from acme you can)
21:03 < skelterjohn> same excuse
21:03 < KBme> bah
21:04 < skelterjohn> :)
21:04 < KBme> ;)
21:04 < KBme> i didn't really want to start a flame, just thought i'd
evangelise my favourite editor since so few people know it ;)
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21:06 < skelterjohn> i'll give it a shot - is it easy to install on a mac?
21:06 < KBme> install plan9port, pretty much same system as the go tree, it
stays in one directory
21:07 < KBme> i just use the hg ti and update every once in a while
21:07 < skelterjohn> you lost me at install plan9port, unfortunately
21:07 < KBme> (hg clone http://code.swtch.com/plan9port)
21:07 < KBme> ok then :)
21:07 < skelterjohn> bah, i'll give it a shot
21:08 < KBme> http://swtch.com/plan9port
21:08 < KBme> is the homepage
21:09 < uggedal> any standard packages to handle conversion between
character encodings or should I just shell out to iconv?
21:09 < KBme> iconv works fine
21:10 < KBme> no, you can run iconv on any part of a file
21:10 < KBme> just select the part you want
21:10 < uggedal> KBme: I need to convert whole files anyways
21:10 < KBme> and then in the tag you type |iconv {youroptions} and execute
it with midle click
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21:11 < KBme> well
21:11 < KBme> i don't want to turn this channel into #acme either eh..
21:11 < skelterjohn> hah - i like how running ./configure just tells me to
read the README
21:11 < KBme> ./INSTALL #quick route
21:11 < KBme> ;)
21:12 < KBme> oh
21:12 < KBme> i never used a mac, Russ does tho, so i bet it works fine on
that
21:15 < skelterjohn> lots of compiling needed to run this text editor
21:17 < KBme> yeah, well, it's a whole environment really..
21:17 < skelterjohn> i know
21:18 < KBme> i bet you could strip it down, but most people who use it
don't mind to have the rest…
21:18 < skelterjohn> bit of a barrier to entry
21:18 < KBme> true dat
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21:26 < skelterjohn> KBme: ok, i have acme running
21:27 < skelterjohn> now what do i do?
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21:31 < mpl> skelterjohn: what do you want to know?
21:31 < skelterjohn> well, i seem to be able to edit the file, but clicking
on any of the 'menu' looking things doesn't have much of a response
21:31 < mpl> middle click on Put to save.
21:32 < skelterjohn> i'm also not sure what the stuff on the right is for.
i bet if i watched the acme demo with the sound on, i'd figure it out
21:32 < skelterjohn> i'm on a mac - we only get one mouse button
21:32 < mpl> oh
21:32 < skelterjohn> lol
21:32 < mpl> uhm, I seem to recall the mac users get the middle click with
shift+click or something like that
21:32 < skelterjohn> technically i have two, but it's a pain to use with the
track pad
21:33 < skelterjohn> when i do that, i see nothing to indicate anything
happened
21:34 < mpl> skelterjohn: you're bound to find mac users on #plan9, they'll
know.
21:37 < mpl> skelterjohn: 23:41 < anth_x> command-click is right,
option-click is middle.
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21:42 < skelterjohn> thanks
21:44 < mpl> np
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21:49 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gpetm by [Andrew Gerrand] in
go/src/pkg/container/list/ -- container/list: document iteration
21:57 < niemeyer> Hey, anyone comfortable with cgo around?  I've got a
question related to threads
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22:01 < KBme> skelterjohn: oops
22:01 < KBme> made food
22:01 < KBme> and went out into the garden a bit
22:01 < skelterjohn> no worries
22:01 < KBme> oh damn
22:01 < KBme> mac lol
22:02 < KBme> sorry, i have to, this is the perfect occasion
http://9souldier.org/fun/macfags.jpg
22:02 < KBme> aaanyways
22:02 < KBme> with 1 button it'll be really hard
22:02 < KBme> just wasted 30m
22:02 < skelterjohn> clearly people who use macs and only have one mouse
button only like other people who use macs and only have one mouse button of the
same gender =p
22:03 < KBme> should've thought of it
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22:03 < KBme> especially on a laptop
22:04 < KBme> on desktop it's easy to get a useful mouse, but on the laptop
it's a pain
22:04 < KBme> two button mouse is manageable
22:04 < skelterjohn> i use a two-button mouse when i hook the laptop up to a
monitor, on my desk at home
22:04 < KBme> yea
22:05 < KBme> so middle click is the two together maybe.  it is on X..
22:06 < skelterjohn> heh
22:06 < skelterjohn> i'm in laptop mode right now, and i don't think it's
possible to do both at the same time
22:06 < KBme> multitap works too
22:06 < skelterjohn> but as mpl quoted from some other channel, command- and
option-clicking do it
22:06 < KBme> anyways, it's not heaps of joy
22:07 < KBme> i don't get that
22:07 < KBme> ah
22:07 < KBme> yes, that's it
22:08 < KBme> but there is extensive use of the mouse and all it's
buttons..if you're fine with doing that, cool
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22:09 < KBme> there are mose-button chords.  i.e.  cut is left-click select
-middel click, paste is left click-right click
22:09 < skelterjohn> so, i'm showing myself to be a true mac fanboy here,
but i don't think i could get into using an editor that looked like it came out of
the 80s
22:09 < KBme> vi looks older..
22:10 < KBme> and emacs..
22:10 < skelterjohn> i don't use vi, either
22:10 < skelterjohn> emacs i only use for editing system files
22:10 < skelterjohn> but not for coding
22:10 < KBme> you use what?
22:10 < skelterjohn> i like lots of widgets when coding
22:10 < KBme> heheh
22:10 < skelterjohn> for go i use xcode
22:10 < KBme> can you give me an url?
22:10 < skelterjohn> for java and C++, which I do very little of these days,
i use eclipse
22:10 < skelterjohn> xcode is apple's generic IDE
22:11 < KBme> yeah, i'd use eclipse for java probably..lol
22:11 < skelterjohn> comes with the dev kit
22:11 < KBme> aaah, yeah
22:11 < skelterjohn> it's purposed for objC, which I have had occasion to
use
22:11 < skelterjohn> but it works ok for go.  colors things anyway, and
obeys expected mac keyboard shortcuts
22:12 < KBme> i haven't had the occasion to see it work, so..
22:12 < KBme> but on mac i've seen this small app that looks pretty nifty
22:13 < KBme> it's pretty cheap, maybe i'd switch to that, but since i have
no mac, it's out of the question anyways
22:13 < skelterjohn> which app?
22:13 < KBme> codepad or what?
22:13 < KBme> lemme see
22:13 < KBme> nope
22:14 < skelterjohn> huh - there is something called codepad
22:14 < KBme> textmate
22:14 < KBme> that's the one
22:14 < skelterjohn> looks nice - but i don't like spending money
22:14 < skelterjohn> $56
22:15 < skelterjohn> yeesh
22:15 < KBme> it does.  i've heard a bunch of people praise it
22:15 < KBme> ohh wah
22:15 < KBme> it wasn't that expensive last time lol
22:15 < MaybeSo> opinion poll -- anyone here feel one of these is better
than the other: (s != "") vs (len(s) != 0)
22:15 < skelterjohn> s != ""
22:16 < cbeck> I prefer s != "" as well
22:16 < skelterjohn> it's a bit more cognitively reachable, and a compiler
can make it do the same code
22:16 < skelterjohn> eventually, if not already
22:16 < exch> But does it?
22:16 < skelterjohn> probably not
22:16 < skelterjohn> but clear code is better than fast code, at this scale
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22:16 < MaybeSo> yeah, I'm not terribly worried about optimization of it,
more about what people felt was a more natural expression
22:16 < cbeck> I don't imagine it's more than a few instructions different
22:17 < exch> I generally use len(s) != 0
22:19 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts
22:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gpi0D by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/typechecker/ -- go/typechecker: use append
22:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gpi0L by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/printer/ -- go/printer: use append
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22:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gpl6c by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/regexp/ --
regexp: eliminate vector in favor of append.
22:54 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@lawn-gw.rutgers.edu] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn]
22:55 < cbeck> Has anyone else had toolchain/lib build errors since
inclusion of append()?
22:57 < nsf> when Go panics on Mac it prints stack traces as well?
22:58 < cbeck> yes
22:58 < nsf> :\
22:58 < nsf> there is a guy which gets "no such file or directory" error
from gocode
22:58 < nsf> apparently the error message is from syscall
22:59 < nsf> but gocode should panic about each external error
22:59 < nsf> very strange :(
22:59 < cbeck> It may not propogate back to your code
22:59 < nsf> do you think there is a lib function that calls Exit?
22:59 < nsf> I've tried to find something like that
23:00 < nsf> nothing..
23:00 < cbeck> Are you on a mac?
23:00 < nsf> nope
23:00 < cbeck> It may be darwin specific
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23:01 < nsf> I don't think so
23:01 < nsf> if it was windows, maybe
23:01 < nsf> but Mac is quite POSIX
23:03 < nsf> ok, I know the error is from opening file or unix socket, then
I'll recheck all the places where it does that
23:04 < nsf> ah, I've found it
23:05 < nsf> stupid me :(
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23:15 < fenicks> hello
23:19 < dacc> hey
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23:56 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gprdF by [Rob Pike] in 6 subdirs of go/src/ --
testing: eliminate testing/regexp
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 29 00:00:04 2010