--- Log opened Fri Oct 29 00:00:04 2010
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00:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gptTT by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/doc/ -- go/doc: use append
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01:13 < nsf> omg, reflection tables 740kb
01:13 < nsf> why are they so huge?
01:13 < nsf> 740 it's a _LOT_ of data
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01:38 < skelterjohn> hooray, data!
01:39 < |Craig|> I generated a gegapixel png file with go today.  Thats lots
of data.
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01:54 < skelterjohn> nsf's silly reflection tables aren't so big now, *are*
they?
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04:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gqbsk by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/tabwriter/ -- tabwriter: use append
04:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gqbsC by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/ebnf/ -- ebnf: use append
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06:49 < nsf> I "like" this in go:
06:49 < nsf> const CONST = 4000000000
06:49 < nsf> i := CONST
06:49 < nsf> compilation error
06:49 < nsf> :\
06:50 < nsf> why type of 'i' cannot be deduced to int64?
06:53 < nsf> also I have a question regarding spec
06:54 < nsf> "if the operands of a binary operation are an untyped integer
constant and an untyped floating-point constant, the integer constant is converted
to an untyped floating-point constant (relevant for / and %)."
06:54 < TheSeeker> because 4000000000 is within the range of uint32 ?
06:54 < nsf> why it says "relevant for / and %"?
06:55 < nsf> or it's like clarification, that ops of / and % are converted
too
06:55 < nsf> ok, got it
06:55 < nsf> probably worth adding "too" at the end
06:56 < nsf> TheSeeker: consts are converted to signed types implicitly
06:56 < nsf> I mean if you're trying to deduce type of the const, it is
signed int or float
06:56 < TheSeeker> oh
06:57 < nsf> 4e9 fits in uint32 indeed
06:57 < nsf> but compiler complains differently anyway
06:57 < nsf> "test.go:15: constant 4000000000 overflows int"
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09:58 < HollyRain> where is the roadmap page?
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10:00 < nsf> http://golang.org/doc/devel/roadmap.html
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10:05 < nsf> I'm trying to figure out how should I display variable in my
documentation generator
10:05 < nsf> Go's grouping for everything is annoying sometimes :)
10:05 < nsf> var ( a, b, c int; d, e, g float; )
10:05 < nsf> :\
10:06 < nsf> I guess I'll just group them the same way I do for consts
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10:46 < Gertm> is there an order in which the roadmap gets implemented?
10:50 < nsf> Gertm: I think there is no such thing
10:51 < nsf> although I can't say for sure, I'm not the go developer
10:56 < Gertm> well I'm probably expecting stuff you can't expect from an
open source project :)
10:56 < Gertm> as in: planned releases, in depth prepared backlog etc..
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11:06 < uriel> I think things are going too fast to expect any kind of
'planned releases', releases happen every week or so
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11:08 < uriel> actualy "Improved CGO including some mechanism for calling
back from C to Go." is done as far as I know
11:08 < uriel> and "Generate DWARF debug info.
11:08 < uriel> Provide gdb support for runtime facilities."
11:08 < uriel> are in progress
11:08 < uriel> "Improved optimization." is an ongoing thing
11:09 < uriel> language changes depend more on somebody comming up with a
design that doesn't suck more than anything else
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11:48 < nsf> http://jiss.convex.ru/gowtf
11:48 < nsf> I guess it's a second iteration
11:48 < nsf> new syntax, no tree, 'var' support
11:48 < nsf> no visual improvements yet
11:49 < nsf> also, I will improve sorting logic a bit
11:49 < nsf> it turns out it's very ugly as of now
11:59 < uriel> nsf: could you use a different package as example
12:00 < nsf> uriel: what package do you want to see?  :)
12:00 < uriel> any, ast just seems like the most confusing one somebody
could pick for something like this :)
12:00 < nsf> generator itself has bugs, so I can't generate docs for all of
the packages yet
12:00 < uriel> exp/draw maybe?
12:01 < nsf> and some packages just contain very few entities
12:01 < nsf> and I want to see how fast js is
12:01 < uriel> well, shouldn't it work on multiple packages at once?
12:01 < uriel> rather than a single package anyway?
12:01 < nsf> no
12:02 < nsf> I don't understand people who use multipackage search
12:02 < nsf> it's like you don't know the package you want to use
12:02 < nsf> :\
12:02 < uriel> it is like I don't want to setup a new search engine for
every site i might want to search..
12:03 < uriel> and if people knew where what they are searching for is, they
would not need search!
12:03 < nsf> exactly
12:03 < nsf> it's not the search at all
12:03 < nsf> it's simple filter
12:03 < uriel> the web browser search function works well enough for that
pretty much
12:03 < nsf> I was working a lot with go/ast package
12:04 < nsf> and web browser search sucks
12:04 < nsf> :)
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12:04 < nsf> it's pain in the ass if you want to find all "expr" types for
example
12:05 < nsf> anyway, I don't expect that people would accept my vision, I'm
doing that mostly for myself
12:06 < nsf> http://jiss.convex.ru/gowtf
12:06 < nsf> reload, exp/draw is boring
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12:08 < uriel> nsf: most packages are boring, and that is a good thing
12:08 < nsf> http://github.com/nsf/gollvm/blob/master/core.go
12:09 < nsf> that's what this documentation system is for
12:09 < uriel> nsf: if a package is not boring, it is probably too big and
should be split up
12:09 < nsf> it's a pile of crap^W functions and I need to be able to
quickly see their reference documentation
12:10 < uriel> nsf: that is pretty horrible
12:11 < nsf> yeah, I hope js will be able to handle that
12:11 < nsf> I'm not sure though :(
12:11 < uriel> btw, something that would be nice is to have types in
function arg lists and so on be links to the type definition
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12:12 < nsf> maybe, yes
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12:12 < nsf> it shouldn't be hard to implement
12:12 < nsf> but only for local types (no types from external packages)
12:13 < nsf> although it's possible to do that too, but it requires more
processing
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12:16 < nsf> actually I'm lying
12:17 < nsf> js will handle that
12:17 < nsf> I've profiled it, the bottleneck is DOM manipulation (90% vs
10% of the time)
12:18 < nsf> so, I can simply reduce the maximum number of displayed
entities from infinity to something like 50 or 100
12:19 < nsf> it will provide decent performance for big packages like gollvm
12:22 < uriel> within a single page you could do it without js at all
12:22 < uriel> just add a bunch of anchors and href #foos around
12:23 < uriel> s/could/should
12:26 < nsf> well, links are not a problem :)
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12:26 < nsf> every element in this system can be references using special
form
12:26 < nsf> like 't:Scope!'
12:27 < nsf> and it will point to exactly the type Scope
12:27 < nsf> and nothing else
12:29 < nsf> s/references/referenced/
12:30 * nsf wants to use Go in his browser instead of javascript
12:31 < nsf> ah, I forgot
12:31 < nsf> the bottleneck is written in C++ anyway
12:31 < nsf> won't help
12:31 < nsf> :\
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12:39 < wrtp> nsf: jiss.convex.ru refuses my connection attempts.
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13:05 * uriel facepalms again at google-groups pathetic spam filter
13:08 < Tonnerre> Getting false positives?
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13:11 < wrtp> uriel: i think it's pretty good.  i've had 415 conversations
automatically marked as spam in the last month, of which about 3 have made it
through the filter.
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13:30 < uriel> wrtp: don't confuse gmail with google groups
13:31 < uriel> gmail's filter is pretty good, google groups is a joke
13:31 < wrtp> i don't generally use google groups
13:31 < uriel> (google group's search is also badly broken, although not as
badly broken as it used to be)
13:31 < wrtp> i saw the spam messages you were talking about inside gmail.
13:31 < uriel> wrtp: well, it is a bit hard to subscribe to gnolang-nuts
without using google groups
13:32 < wrtp> i agree that the search is broken though
13:32 < uriel> gmail pretty much 'witelists' any mailinglists you are
subscrived to
13:32 < wrtp> i get the messages into gmail.
13:32 < uriel> those emails should never have made it into the mailinglist
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13:32 < wrtp> i'm not sure.  there would be *much* more spam if the spam
filters weren't working ok
13:33 < wrtp> i remember running with no filters and getting 200+ spam
messages a day
13:33 < wrtp> and that was years ago
13:33 < wrtp> and things haven't got better since, spam-wise
13:33 < uriel> er., no, this doesn't happen with any other public mailing
list anywhere, and the same spam message got posted to at least dozens of groups
(I got it in a few others not related to go)
13:33 < uriel> again, you are totally confusing two unrelated issues: gmail
and google groups
13:34 < wrtp> one or two spam messages will manage to evade the filters.
but...  one a week?  that's really not bad at all.
13:34 < wrtp> i get the occasional spam message in my inbox too.
13:35 < wrtp> probably more than i get through group subscriptions, as it
happens
13:35 < wrtp> but hardly many at all in the grand scheme of things.
13:35 < uriel> getting the same spam message five times, from different
mailing lists, all hosted in googlegroups is not acceptable, period
13:36 < wrtp> getting the same spam message five times is much better than
getting five different messages once.
13:36 < uriel> and again, no other public mailinglist Im subscrived to has
the same issues
13:36 < wrtp> i think you're getting worked up about nothing.
13:36 < uriel> ok, I give up, this is ridiculously offtopic, but I fucking
hate it when people makes excuses for crap that should not be crap
13:37 < uriel> i'm getting worked up by thousands of people having to waste
their time for no reason at all other than that google groups sucks
13:37 < uriel> and actually, this could be solved if the people that admin
the gonuts list would enable moderation for first time posters
13:38 < uriel> something that I do for much smaller google groups lists and
works fairly well, that way you only waste the time of one person, instead of the
time of thousands of people
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13:40 < wrtp> i see 4 spam messages posted to golang in the past month, of
which 2 were not automatically tagged.  i see 11 spam messages posted to
golang-dev in the last month, of which 2, again, weren't automatically tagged.
there must have been loads more rejected earlier.  i think that's pretty good.
13:41 < wrtp> who wants to moderate?
13:41 < wrtp> the noise is well down.  it's not a problem!
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13:51 < Fish> greylisting could also be a good thing
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15:38 < niemeyer> iant: ping
15:38 <+iant> niemeyer: pong
15:38 < niemeyer> iant: Hey Ian
15:39 < niemeyer> iant: Quick question which you probably know the answer
for:
15:39 < niemeyer> iant: Will cgo behave correctly if the C library intiates
a background thread?
15:39 <+iant> yes, but C code running in that thread can't call back to Go
code at present
15:39 < niemeyer> iant: I assume it will, given that it's a different stack
15:39 <+iant> (that is a bug)
15:40 < niemeyer> iant: But just wondered if you see any gotchas
15:40 < niemeyer> iant: Uhh
15:40 < niemeyer> iant: Ok..  that's actually a requirement :-(
15:40 < niemeyer> iant: I want to wrap zookeeper's C library
15:40 <+iant> It's fixable but it has not been fixed
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15:41 < niemeyer> iant: I will have to find a way for C to call Go, out of
band
15:42 < niemeyer> iant: Is there some kind of loop from the runtime I can
hook into?
15:42 < niemeyer> iant: Assuming I get rid of the background thread
15:42 <+iant> not really
15:43 <+iant> there is a scheduler but it doesn't have an event loop or
anything like that
15:43 < niemeyer> Hmm..  I guess I could have each watcher on its own
goroutine, and call it synchronously or something
15:43 < niemeyer> Not sure if that's feasible
15:44 < niemeyer> I can probably busy loop with the scheduler, and observe a
flag from the C side..  but that's a bit sub-optimal
15:45 < niemeyer> iant: Is there any intent in the air to fix that
"soonish", or is that a completely open problem atm?
15:46 <+iant> I'm not sure it's really on anybody's plate right now
15:46 <+iant> It's probably not all that hard to fix
15:47 < niemeyer> iant: Cool, let me send a mail to the list to see if we
have any takers on it
15:47 < niemeyer> iant: Thanks!
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15:57 < niemeyer> Sent..  biab
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16:03 < mlip> hej, any runtime hackers can help me printing a stracktrace
from withing the runtime?
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18:40 < mbruce> I'm seeing a problem with a regexp like
regexp.Compile("[@][0-9ABCDEF][0-9ABCDEF]")
18:40 < mbruce> Er, early linefeed there.
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18:42 < mbruce> Anyway, that regex when applied to the string "@@34@30"
matches "@30" instead of "@34".  Am I missing something / going crazy, or is that
a problem?
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18:55 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gsCFt by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ -- go
spec: append is now implemented
18:57 < TheMue> ah, very good, append() is implemented and will so be in the
next release
18:59 < cbeck> Does that mean my build will stop failing?  =/
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19:01 < TheMue> which error message do you get?
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19:05 < cbeck> not found: append()
19:05 < cbeck> Or something along those lines
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19:05 < cbeck> Had to roll back to latest official release to build
successfully
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19:06 < TheMue> you checked out head instead of release?
19:08 * TheSeeker attempts to build latest [kubuntu] ...  tests take a while o.o
19:10 < TheSeeker> looks like it built just fine here.
19:11 < TheMue> I've just updated to the latest too, and it works
19:11 < TheSeeker> or is the issue with compiling own code with Go tools,
rather than compiling Go itself?
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19:18 < HollyRain> does the sre2 creator is here?
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22:14 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gsVYl by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/scanner/ -- go/scanner: added another test case, clarified some code
22:14 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gsVYr by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- gob:
make the debugging (dumping) code work again.  Mostly rewrite it, in fact.
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23:01 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gt0aN by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- gob:
clarify the comments about installing the debug/dumper.
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--- Log closed Sat Oct 30 00:00:13 2010