--- Log opened Thu Dec 02 00:00:35 2010
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00:15 < KirkMcDonald> rspec22: Packages are not .go files.
00:15 < KirkMcDonald> rspec22: Packages are the result of compiling .go
files.
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00:23 < bmizerany> is there a way to know how many active goroutines are
running?
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01:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i4r6p by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/devel/ --
roadmap: update gdb status
01:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i4r6y by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/template/ --
template: implement multi-word variable instantation for formatters.
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01:27 < Namegduf> Is there a better way to write a string to a socket than
converting it to a []byte, with the copy involved?
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01:35 <+iant> Namegduf: io.WriteString, but that will just do the conversion
and copy for you
01:37 < Namegduf> Hmm, pity.
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01:38 < exch> Couldn't you use some reflect trickery to modify the type
header from string into a byte slice?
01:39 <+iant> Namegduf: you could push WriteString through the net package
and add it to the syscalls package
01:39 < exch> Not sure if that would be faster than copying though..  if it
works at all
01:39 <+iant> I don't know whether it would be worth it
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01:49 < Namegduf> Might be an idea later, right now I need to get the code
done.  Could post to the list and see what people think.
01:53 < DarthShrine> Is there any performance different between using
io.WriteString and fmt.Fprint to write to a socket?
01:55 <+iant> io.WriteString is likely to be a wee bit faster
01:55 <+iant> probably won't matter overall, though, you'll probably be
dominated by network time anyhow
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01:59 * Namegduf is writing a simple app server which takes JSON requests, checks
authentication, and runs MySQL queries.
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02:09 < Namegduf> Hmm.  Is there an easy way to tell if an error passed up
from the JSON package's Decode came from it, or the network connection?
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03:44 < CodeWar> are there plans for allowing manual memory management where
the programmer chooses to?
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04:09 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i4OAJ by [Brad Fitzpatrick] in
go/src/pkg/http/ -- http: consume request body before next request
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04:47 < Namegduf> Hmm, goodie.  The default build system for cgo won't even
build the cgo library before make install, making it impossible to use multiple
versions of the same cgo project at once.
04:48 < Namegduf> I wish we had a usable set of default makefiles for
multi-package projects.
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09:23 < krutcha> hmm, I seem to be getting some non UTF8 chars in my XML
datastream via net.Conn.Read()
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12:34 < niemeyer> wrtp: Played with the After() stuff last night..  check
out the thread in the ML
12:35 < wrtp> niemeyer: i'm just about to post a response :-)
12:35 < niemeyer> wrtp: Nice :-)
12:35 < wrtp> here's the code: http://pastebin.com/CY4C0H0M
12:36 < wrtp> much better worst-case behaviour, but can be slightly slower
to set up (but that might be the vagaries of benchmarking)
12:40 < niemeyer> Will wait for your response and discuss in the list
12:41 < wrtp> ok
12:41 < wrtp> the algorithm is pretty much the same, as it turns out
12:42 < niemeyer> Yeah, I wonder why..  ;-)
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12:47 < wrtp> niemeyer: well, it wasn't because i looked at your code!
12:48 < wrtp> i only just looked, and discovered that your code was doing
pretty much the same thing.
12:48 < wrtp> i just posted, BTW.
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12:48 < niemeyer> wrtp: With the same variable name even (sleeping)..  I
guess we really think alike!  :-)
12:49 < wrtp> i started off with "fired" - then realised that it wouldn't
work.
12:51 < wrtp> interestingly, i tickled a GC bug when benchmarking, causing
the benchmark to hang up.  only happens if i nil out the event when popping it.
12:53 < wrtp> BTW, when firing off many events are random times in the
future, your implementation takes 52000ns/op; mine takes 16000.  but when adding
to the end of the queue, yours is 30-40% faster.  (no surprise there i guess)
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12:56 < niemeyer> wrtp: Right, the detail is the realistic workloads will
tend to append at the end of the queue
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12:59 < wrtp> niemeyer: it depends - if you've got many concurrent repeating
timers, all with different timeouts, then most calls will insert into the middle
of the queue.
13:00 < wrtp> the overhead is small enough that i think it's worth it.
13:01 < wrtp> if you have several long-lived timers, and one fast repeating
timer, then you'll get worst case (traversing all items) every time.
13:01 < niemeyer> wrtp: For that to be true it'd have to be equally
distributed among the several timeouts..  any tendencies towards one value will
move them towards the end
13:02 < niemeyer> wrtp: E.g.  if you're *often inserting in the middle*, it
means the middle is growing towards the end :-)
13:06 < wrtp> depends on the rate at which your inserting/deleting, i guess
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13:07 < niemeyer> wrtp: Kind of..  try to come up with a situation where
most items are added at the beginning
13:08 < niemeyer> wrtp: It just doesn't make sense in this context..
13:09 < wrtp> as i said a moment ago - say i have quite a few long-lived
waiters (e.g.  1 or 2 seconds) and one fast loop that times out quickly, then the
fast loop will have to traverse through all the others every time.
13:11 < wrtp> BTW, the array copying isn't a particular issue i think, as
the array size will tend to stabilise.
13:11 < niemeyer> wrtp: If you have quite a few long lived waiters ever 1 or
2 seconds, it means you're *appending* quite a few long lived waiters every 1 or 2
seconds!
13:13 < wrtp> sure - it could be for a loads of independently blinking
graphics, for example.  blink, wait, blink, wait, etc.
13:13 < wrtp> or slow polling code.
13:13 < niemeyer> wrtp: Yes, and all of those events added one or two
seconds were appended immediately, without any searching
13:14 < wrtp> sure, but they're only happening very occasionally.
13:14 < niemeyer> wrtp: Well, 1 or 2 seconds necessarily
13:14 < niemeyer> wrtp: After that the events must go away, and your fast
loop goes to the edge, and become appends as well
13:14 < wrtp> the important thing is that if you've got another loop that's
running every few milliseconds, that's where the overhead is felt.
13:15 < wrtp> the events only go away for good if they're not repeating
13:15 < niemeyer> wrtp: If you have to append 1000 1/2 seconds items, that's
already equivalent to 1 per millisecond :)
13:16 < wrtp> 2 per millisecond :-)
13:16 < niemeyer> wrtp: Either way, we're both guessing workloads..  and
won't get to any conclusion.
13:16 < niemeyer> I'm happy with either option
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13:18 < niemeyer> wrtp: Sent some unrelated private notes, btw
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13:23 < soapy_illusions> buf := make([][]interface{}, 10, 2) is throwing
makeslice: cap out of range, can anyone explain what that means
13:25 < wrtp> soapy_illusions: the first arg to make is the len, the second
is the csap
13:26 < wrtp> s/csap/cap/
13:26 < wrtp> so make([]T, 2, 10) should do what you want
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13:26 < soapy_illusions> wrtp: ahh I see, now how would I declare a 2d array
using make?
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13:27 < wrtp> soapy_illusions: you'd make the outer array, then loop making
an array for each inner element.
13:28 < soapy_illusions> wrtp: humm ok, then second question, what exactly
is a cap, how big the slice can get and the length is how big it starts?
13:28 < wrtp> yeah, kinda
13:29 < wrtp> len(a) is always <= cap(a)
13:30 < soapy_illusions> ok thanks a lot
13:33 < wrtp> soapy_illusions: you can slice an array up to its capacity,
but you can only index up to its length
13:33 < soapy_illusions> wrtp: ahh thanks that makes more sense ( I was
confused why a cap was needed otherwise )
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13:40 < soapy_illusions> hey wrtp I am still getting the error when doing
this buf := make([]interface{}, 10, 11)
13:41 < wrtp> soapy_illusions: i don't believe it :-)
13:42 < wrtp> it works fine for me
13:42 < soapy_illusions> "panic: runtime error: makeslice: cap out of range"
...  I'll try reloading my IDE goClipse can be the cause of errors sometimes
13:43 < wrtp> soapy_illusions: i just pasted your code into the go
playground and it worked.
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13:44 < soapy_illusions> wrtp: ok I will try re working it a bit, is there
any better IDE than goClipse at the moment, it seems very temperamental lol
13:44 < wrtp> i don't know about goClipse
13:45 < wrtp> i use acme, but it might be considered an "acquired taste"...
13:47 < soapy_illusions> hahah I guess so because acme IDE in google turns
up almost nothing
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13:48 < wrtp> soapy_illusions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_(text_editor)
13:49 < soapy_illusions> ohh Rob Pike wrote it
13:51 < soapy_illusions> and I can see how that might be an "acquired taste"
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14:10 < mpl> wrtp: some might say an acquired distaste ;)
14:10 < wrtp> just like blue cheese :-)
14:11 < mpl> heh
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14:17 < kimelto> blue cheese <3
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16:29 < skelterjohn> mmm blue cheese
16:29 < skelterjohn> delish
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17:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i6mW2 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/ -- A+C:
adding Stefan Nilsson
17:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i6mWu by [Stefan Nilsson] in go/src/pkg/sort/
-- Sort: reduced stack depth to lg(n) in quickSort
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17:52 < sauerbraten> does go provide key events?
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17:55 < wrtp> sauerbraten: if you use the right package, yes
17:56 < wrtp> exp/x11 is one example
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18:16 < exch> For a platform independant solution, I'd probably go with
something like SDL
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18:28 < sauerbraten> I thought about modifying scanf or so :D if i do scanf
it wait's til i press enter, is there a way to make it wait for the space key?  :)
18:28 < sauerbraten> *waits :(
18:30 < sauerbraten> i see, exp/spacewars is played with keys, too :)
18:33 < sauerbraten> mhm can't see any events in there :/ I'm not nerdy
enough to understand the code completely :D
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18:38 < sauerbraten> I'd really appreciate it if a skilled programmer would
add key events to go, since I'm not good enough :) For example there should be
onRelease and onPress and so on
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18:39 <+iant> it's a really complex area
18:40 <+iant> go programs currently run in a number of different
environments
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18:43 < nsf> well, waiting for a space key isn't that hard
18:43 < nsf> just read stdin
18:43 < nsf> until ' ' byte is received
18:43 < nsf> but no one will write that for you
18:43 < nsf> google.com <- go there and learn
18:43 < nsf> write code
18:43 < nsf> it's easy
18:45 <+iant> that won't get you to the point of onRelease and onPress,
though
18:45 < nsf> ah, yes
18:46 < sauerbraten> yes, I just realized I'd like to wait til space key is
released :) I want to write a rubik's cube timer, that measures time from
releaseing space until pressing it again, you know?  I saw go-sdl now, but it
seems to be complex to me, are there example codes for it?
18:46 < nsf> basically it's impossible to do it in terminals, unless you
want to grab X11 or evdev or whatever events directly :)
18:46 < nsf> (I'm talking about onPress onRelease)
18:47 < nsf> sauerbraten: why do you need it to be a space key, it's just
timer..  any key will work
18:47 < nsf> read from from os.Stdin, it will block
18:48 < sauerbraten> yes but with both hands on the cube the space button is
easier to release then enter ;)
18:48 < nsf> until there is some kind of input
18:48 < nsf> any key includes space too
18:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i6zRT by [Robert Griesemer] in go/ -- A+C:
added Jamie Gennis
18:48 < nsf> as far as I remember
18:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i6zS4 by [Jamie Gennis] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/go/printer/ -- go/printer: preserve newlines in func parameter lists
18:48 < sauerbraten> is the " " read if i press or release the button?
18:48 < exch> sauerbraten: Hook up a LEGO NeXT robot to solve the cube for
you.  You can program it to time whatever you want :p
18:48 < nsf> there is no press and release events on the terminals
18:48 < nsf> these are just letters
18:48 < nsf> stream of byte
18:49 < nsf> bytes*
18:49 < sauerbraten> exch: thanks for that idea :D I know the cube stormer,
but I don't have a NXT ;)
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18:49 < exch>
http://www.botjunkie.com/2010/02/15/cubestormer-lego-mindstorms-rubiks-cube-robot/
<3
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18:51 < sauerbraten> I think I'll do it with SDL, i found an example for
KeyDown and KeyUp and i think i'm smart enough :)
18:51 < nsf> good luck
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18:56 < nsf> ah!  stupid me
18:56 < nsf> now I know why gocode fails to start its daemon on windows
18:56 < nsf> I'm trying to open /dev/null for a child process as
stdin/out/err
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18:59 < nsf> on windows /dev/null is called NUL isn't it?
18:59 < TheSeeker> yes
19:00 < nsf> TheSeeker: have you solved that issue?
19:00 < TheSeeker> I had to do something with that to get gocode working
here.
19:00 < nsf> I'm reading irc logs right now
19:00 < nsf> looks like it was opening a lot of file descriptors
19:00 < TheSeeker> I also had to comment out the check for unix signals
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19:00 < nsf> I see
19:01 < nsf> well, it makes sense
19:01 < nsf> 00:55 < TheSeeker> goclipse is running gocode "-s"
"-sock" "unix" "-addr"
19:01 < nsf> ":37373"
19:01 < nsf> hm..  it should be fixed in goclipse itself
19:01 < TheSeeker> yeah
19:01 < TheSeeker> I changed the default to use tcp instead of unix if on
windows.
19:01 < nsf> goclipse should run it like: "gocode -sock tcp -addr
<whatever>"
19:02 < nsf> and in that case gocode starts server with the same parameters
19:02 < TheSeeker> goclipse is actually just sending one parameter I think,
the rest are defaults
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19:03 < nsf> I have no idea what goclipse does, never looked at its source
code :)
19:03 < TheSeeker> it was easier for me to edit gocode and recompile than
try and fix goclipse.
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19:04 < nsf> the point is, no one wants to maintain two versions of gocode
19:04 < TheSeeker> yeah
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19:04 < nsf> I can add a check for OS then
19:04 < nsf> and on windows it will enable tcp by default
19:05 < TheSeeker> want to see my diff and tell me what horrible things I've
done wrong?  :)
19:05 < nsf> sure
19:06 < nsf> and I'll take a look at goclipse gocode plugin
19:06 < TheSeeker> http://dark-code.bulix.org/pbk3dp-78889 and
http://dark-code.bulix.org/bz24rl-78890
19:07 < nsf> the thing is, I don't know java :D I mean at all..  never used
it
19:07 < TheSeeker> the only real problem I have now is that (because of my
changes?) I have to save the file first in goclipse before getting suggestions, or
it won't suggest the right thing.
19:08 < nsf> again, it's not gocode's fault most likely, although it
(gocode) assumes few things
19:09 < nsf> 1.  it allows you to have unsaved currently editted buffer and
client should send it to gocode via stdin or via tmp file
19:09 < TheSeeker> I think that without my changes, on *nix anyway, it sends
the current buffer to gocode instead of using the file on disk.
19:09 < nsf> 2.  it assumes that other than the currently editted file files
are in sync with disk
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19:10 < nsf> probably there is a misunderstanding with (1) or (2)
19:10 < TheSeeker> On unix it uses a unix socket (file?  stdin?) and windows
doesn't have that.
19:10 < nsf> no, client uses unix sockets for communication with server
19:10 < nsf> windows has stdin
19:10 < TheSeeker> so the lack of working as expected is almost certainly my
own damn fault for not understanding how stuff works :)
19:11 < nsf> no, I'm afraid it's not your fault
19:11 < nsf> let me see the patch
19:11 < nsf> / If in= isn't specified, but a file name is, use the file
name!  -TheSeeker
19:11 < nsf> that's a bad idea
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19:12 < nsf> because obviously file is out of sync with the buffered version
19:12 < nsf> almost always in the editor
19:12 < nsf> that's why there is separate '-in' parameter
19:12 < nsf> and an option to use stdin for that
19:12 < TheSeeker> well, I couldn't get it to work at all otherwise *shrug*
19:13 < nsf> but that's goclipse's bug
19:13 < TheSeeker> ok
19:13 < nsf> nil FDs are ok
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19:14 < nsf> but I don't why it starts gocode server many times
19:14 < nsf> it should do it only once
19:14 < TheSeeker> I think it did work when I used os.Open("NUL") ...  but
that added lots of extra lines of code for no reason.
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19:14 < nsf> true
19:15 < TheSeeker> the server starting many times might have been due to not
having siging/sigterm available on windows?
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19:15 < nsf> no, gocode doesn't use signals
19:16 < nsf> I've added it for being able to kill gocode through console on
linux
19:16 < TheSeeker> then what's this for?
19:16 < TheSeeker> if usig == signal.SIGINT || usig == signal.SIGTERM {
19:16 < TheSeeker> - return
19:16 < TheSeeker> hmm, ok.
19:16 < nsf> well
19:17 < nsf> actually goclipse plugin sends input via stdin
19:17 < nsf> I mean the current buffer
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19:18 < nsf> I guess I'll have to install Go on windows by myself and make
sure everything works as expected
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19:21 < nsf> ok, I'll try to do it now :) brb, reboot
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19:31 < wrtp> anyone else been getting GC-related hangups recently?
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19:33 < wrtp> i'll try and make a test case
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19:48 < nsf> yay, eclipse works
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19:49 < nsf> now I have to compile the gocode :)
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19:51 < nsf> no bash, no make :(
19:51 < nsf> no git
19:52 < nsf> yeah, I guess I'll leave it for tomorrow, anyways..  I will
make it work sooner or later, most likely tomorrow
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19:54 < nat1192> quick question go-gods
19:54 < nat1192> are there any go books around
19:57 < niemeyer> nat1192: http://tinyurl.com/2cuznn7
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20:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i6Ngr by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ --
go_spec: fixed a couple omissions/type errors
20:40 < sauerbraten> what type should I use if I want to do something like 2
dimensional arrays in java?
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20:48 < exch> Go doesnt have > 1 dimensional arrays.  You'll need arrays
of arrays: var arr [][]int
20:49 < exch> Initializing it requires a loop: arr = make([][]int, x); for i
:= range arr { arr[i] = make([]int, y) }
20:50 < wrtp> or you could make one []int array and make the outer array
point to slices of it, which may take less overall space.
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20:57 < sauerbraten> like an "[10]int innerArray "and "[2]*[]int outerArray"
and "outerArray[0] = [0:5]innerArray" and "outerArray[1] = [5:10]innerArray"?
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21:11 < sauerbraten> is it possible to create maps in maps?
21:12 < exch> yes
21:12 < niemeyer> sauerbraten: make(map[string]map[string]map[string]string)
21:13 < sauerbraten> lol ok
21:13 < sauerbraten> thanks
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21:51 < CodeWar> hmm I was hoping to bore folks with discussions about GC in
Go :-) mainly is there a way to manually manage certain chunks of memory (or will
there be in the future)
21:54 < |Craig|> CodeWar: you can allocate an array, and put stuff in it
yourself.  Thats manually managed memory right?
21:54 < |Craig|> CodeWar: if you want to get really messy, you can make a
byte array, and do non type safe actions on ut using the unsafe package
21:55 < CodeWar> your first option would make the GC skip those references
each time because its held in an array ?
21:56 < |Craig|> CodeWar: if you put stuff in an array by value, not by
pointer, there isnt anything for the GC to do.
21:57 < CodeWar> in my dreams I would have hoped for something like this :-)
varName = My.new( TypeName ) where My is a self written heap and references coming
from it are ignored by GC roots
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21:58 < CodeWar> |Craig|, can you elaborate on the array by value part ...
what would the allocation sequence look like
21:59 < |Craig|> CodeWar: if you have an array of structs, they will not get
garbage collected, theres nothing for the GC to do to them.
21:59 < |Craig|> its just a big block of memory you can put stuff in
22:00 < CodeWar> I dont follow ..  you ll allocate an object then copy by
value to add to the array?  or allocate a chunk out of the array and cast it ?
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22:01 < |Craig|> CodeWar: unless you use unsafe, you can't cast untyped
chunks of memory
22:02 < CodeWar> |Craig|, and I would much rather not do that either ..
anyways this is trying to beat the language ..  has this ever come up or folks are
prefectly happy letting GC manage everything for them
22:02 < |Craig|> CodeWar: Why are you trying to do this?
22:03 < CodeWar> |Craig|, long argument but in a nutshell I know the
allocation / free patterns of certain objects and I would love to take the
pressure off the GC scanning objects try this
22:04 < |Craig|> CodeWar: but whats your usecase?  Specifically why are you
trying to do where manual memory management would be better that you can't do?
22:04 < CodeWar> in a different language currently I queue some objects and
they get processed asynchronously ..  now this particular queue can fill up quite
fast if the consumer is slow ..  I dont want this heap to pollute the main heap
meaning
22:04 < CodeWar> if this heap takes up 2G and another producer says
thisheap.new(1K) make him sleep not provide more memory or OOME
22:05 < |Craig|> CodeWar: you can write your queue items by value into some
something like a unrolled linked list
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22:05 < CodeWar> am I reading correctly theres an allocate step and an
explicit copy by value step?
22:05 < |Craig|> then the garbage collector only deals with the arrays of
items, not the items themselves
22:06 < |Craig|> CodeWar: perhaps, or maybe the optimizer is smart enough to
just create the object on place, or you can just update the previous/zero value
thats already inplace
22:06 < CodeWar> |Craig|, good this is worth exploring for me then ...  I
would have hoped to take this a bit further with language support ..  certain
types of objects that the language is aware of such that
22:07 < |Craig|> CodeWar: lets use the simple example of an array of ints,
ints are like a nice simple struct.  Is it a big GC load?  no.  If there a huge
copy overhead?  no
22:07 < CodeWar> GC scanners simply dont look for child references in that
object but that object itself can be GCed much like you said here
22:07 < plexdev> http://is.gd/i6Ziy by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/ -- doc:
add Practical Go Programming to front page and docs.html
22:09 < CodeWar> |Craig|, I understand the example you re citing just that
for real life usage you would much rather want more complicated and perhaps large
types and doing an explicit copy is a worry ..
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22:09 < CodeWar> you mentioned something about the optimizer knowing things
and that gives me hope
22:10 < |Craig|> CodeWar: here is a generic by value storage system that
does something like you would want (it does stacks and iteration, and some
removes, but not queuing, so its not totally what you want):
https://github.com/Craig-Macomber/Grains--Vegetarian-Zombie-Rising/blob/master/Server/iterBag.got
22:10 < |Craig|> I wrote it, and I won't say its great, but it does work
22:11 < |Craig|> Its designed to store structs by value, and return pointers
to them
22:12 < |Craig|> it explicitly keeps track of what portion of its arrays
have data vs unused (which is kinda the manual memory magement you wanted)
22:12 < CodeWar> how are the structs allocated to begin with
22:13 < |Craig|> CodeWar: I create an array of them, which is implicitly
filled with zero values structs
22:13 < |Craig|> potentially you could modify those rather than copy new
ones over them
22:13 < CodeWar> interesting so thats your heap so to speak
22:14 < |Craig|> no, its an unrolled linked list
22:14 < |Craig|> any time you make an array its filled with zero values.  It
just so happens that the zero value for a pointer is null
22:14 < CodeWar> my go skills are pre elementary at best ...  remind me
struct_type_a [] is a single reference?
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22:16 < |Craig|> CodeWar: I'm not sure what you mean by that
22:16 < CodeWar> never mind I get the hang of things I think its worth
exploring thanks for the headstart
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22:48 < soapy_illusions> Was wondering if anyone had a minute to give me a
hand parsing JSON in my code I have included all the important parts here:
http://pastebin.com/5tAAn91D
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23:49 < krutcha> yay, got my go-jabber client pulling vcard photos properly,
stupid base64 newline/xml issues were the problem
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23:52 < rodpar07> Hi everyone.  I'm using go in a college project and I'm
having some issues.  Is this the right place to ask for help?
23:52 < nictuku> yes
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23:53 < rodpar07> Thanks nictuku.  I'm using the WriteFile function from the
iuotil package.
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23:54 < rodpar07> Its second argument is an uint32 that's used as
permissions to create a new file in case it doesn't exist
23:55 < rodpar07> what are the numbers that represent each permission?
23:55 < rodpar07> all i can get is a read permission using 0
23:55 < rodpar07> and a no read no write permission using 1 or 2
23:55 < nsf> bits are the same as unix file permissions bits
23:55 < DarthShrine> I believe they're here:
http://golang.org/pkg/os/#Constants
23:56 < nsf> http://www.zzee.com/solutions/unix-permissions.shtml
23:56 < nsf> typical one: 0644 - owner rw, group r, others r
23:56 < nictuku> rodpar07, listen to what the guys said.  Try 0640 as an
example
23:57 < nsf> note that octal number literal starts with zero
23:58 < skelterjohn> you would use: os.O_WRONLY | os.O_CREATE
23:58 < skelterjohn> for instance
23:58 < nsf> skelterjohn: it's not mode
23:58 < nsf> it's permissions
23:58 < skelterjohn> oh
23:58 < skelterjohn> i should read more
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 03 00:00:06 2010