--- Log opened Thu Jan 13 00:00:02 2011
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02:27 < skelterjohn> anyone working on any interesting projects?
02:28 < dforsyth_> im writing a text editor
02:28 < skelterjohn> oh neat - what are you using to draw to the screen?
02:29 < dforsyth_> gocurse
02:29 < dforsyth_> i forked it and im building out the rest of the api
02:29 < skelterjohn> ah
02:29 < dforsyth_> i was thinking about trying out teh draw stuff one of
these nights though
02:29 < dforsyth_> im really curious as to what it can do
02:29 < skelterjohn> not to offend, but i was really hoping for someone to
put together a nice GUI IDE in pure go
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02:29 < adu> I'm writing a parser
02:30 < skelterjohn> the x11 pkg included in go only has windows that are
500x500, or something
02:30 < skelterjohn> adu: for what?
02:30 < adu> for Go
02:30 < dforsyth_> skelterjohn: fair enough.  maybe thats next :)
02:30 < adu> in Haskell
02:31 < skelterjohn> any particular task in mind?
02:36 < adu> task?
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02:37 < skelterjohn> well
02:38 < skelterjohn> i dunno, it's possible there is a use for parsing go
with haskell
02:38 <@adg> it's haskell!  there doesn't need to be a point!
02:38 <@adg> :P
02:38 < skelterjohn> i thought that was one of those open secrets
02:38 < Namegduf> Doing something is entirely unidiomatic in Haskell.
02:38 < skelterjohn> everyone knows it, nobody says it
02:48 < adu> parsing is the task
02:48 < adu> the _next_ task is either compilation or generation
02:49 < adu> i.e.  either a go2c compiler or a c2go compiler, I haven't
decided which yet
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02:51 < adu> it would also be useful in a Go documentation generator written
in Haskell
02:52 < adu> the posibilities are endless
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05:13 < inv_arp_> does go have a planet page?  to combine blogs etc..
05:21 <@adg> planet page?
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05:35 <+iant> adg: http://www.planetplanet.org/ it's a blog aggregator; a
planet page for a project aggregates all blogs related to the project
05:35 < inv_arp_> indeed..  say like http://planet.python.org/ or
http://www.planetscala.com/
05:36 <@adg> ah, cool!
05:38 <@adg> i think i used to subscribe to a linux kernel one
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05:38 < Archwyrm> inv_arp_: There is one http://planet5.cat-v.org/
05:40 < inv_arp_> Archwyrm: ahh great thx
05:41 < inv_arp_> hmm no RSS :(
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06:24 <@adg> uriel: strange that you don't have my blog on planet5 - 90% of
the posts are go-related: nf.id.au
06:24 <@adg> uriel: oh i see you did include it - but it's my blog, not
nigels ;)
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07:57 < taruti> Is there a bug in the code or is this a bug in gob in the
latest release?  http://aoi.yi.org/~taruti/gob.go
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08:00 * taruti wonders whether her example has some stupid bug
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08:26 < anticw> taruti: gobs have type information encoded don't they?
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08:27 < anticw> taruti: so how would you robustly encode and decode into
interface{} ?
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08:31 < anticw> taruti: oh, sorry, you do call Register
08:33 < taruti> anticw, so it is a bug?
08:35 < anticw> im actually not sure, i can see the intention but it's not
clear how this would work
08:37 < anticw> taruti: you could using gob.Debug to show the result of
e.Encode
08:37 < anticw> you have to tweak makefiles to get that though
08:37 < taruti> true
08:38 < taruti> I'll ask on the ml
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09:04 < uriel> adg: hmmmm..  I have http://nf.id.au/rss.xml
09:05 < uriel> although the Planet software is notoriously buggy :(
09:05 < uriel> (I blame the brittle and braindead RSS and atom specs)
09:06 < uriel> ah!  and now that I see, I had a syntax error in the config
file, that was messing things up
09:06 < uriel> should be fine once the next update is run
09:07 < uriel> adg: thanks for the heads up
09:07 < uriel> adg: btw, any news on the update to the Roadmap?  or I'm
wrong about the C callbacks bit?
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10:15 < karshan> are there any functions available to seek through gob file
?
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10:37 < wrtp> karshan: what do you mean by a gob file?
10:38 < wrtp> seeking on gob streams is something you have to be very
careful about, because of the way it marshals type info
10:40 < wrtp> i wrote some code that used gob on a random-access buffer.
see
http://code.google.com/p/rog-go/source/browse/stringfs/stringfs.go?r=6e3e68080a79094895b421fd7223239366a9e3c5
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11:57 <@adg> uriel: the roadmap is on my todo list
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12:13 < skelterjohn> a todo list is on my todo list
12:14 < nsf> :D
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12:20 < taruti> Is there a function to check whether a string is valid
utf-8?
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12:34 < skelterjohn> what would make a string invalid utf-8?
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12:48 < quantumelixir> Can I continue long strings using "\" onto the next
line?
12:48 < taruti> skelterjohn: input from untrusted user
12:48 < nsf> no, you can use `` raw strings
12:48 < skelterjohn> taruti: i mean specifically, what kind of thing would
make it invalid
12:48 < nsf> quantumelixir: raw strings are multiline strings as well
12:49 < taruti> skelterjohn: invalid byte sequences
12:49 < skelterjohn> clearly...  could you give an example?
12:49 < quantumelixir> nsf: so normal quotes should work fine?
12:50 < nsf> `` these are not quotes, backticks
12:50 < quantumelixir> ok got it
12:50 < skelterjohn> you can use ``these'' to quote a multiline string?
12:51 < nsf> omg
12:51 < taruti> skelterjohn: 0xc3 0x28
12:51 < skelterjohn> or is it backticks on both ``sides``
12:51 < nsf> single backtick on each side
12:51 < nsf> `raw string`
12:51 < skelterjohn> ah
12:51 < nsf> rtfm the spec
12:51 < skelterjohn> not sure why you said 'omg', but ok
12:51 < skelterjohn> apologies for not memorizing the spec
12:51 < nsf> skelterjohn: because you've invented something out of nothing
12:52 < skelterjohn> i was trying to infer the complete description from the
partial one you gave
12:52 < nsf> syntax part of the spec is simple
12:52 < skelterjohn> ``this'' is how you quote something in latex to make
the quotes look right
12:52 < nsf> anyway, maybe it's my english
12:52 * nsf is back to code
12:53 < quantumelixir> Is there a ternary operator?  Single line if-s are
rather awkward..
12:53 < skelterjohn> quantumelixir: no
12:53 < nsf> no
12:53 < quantumelixir> Is there any page where I can check out all the go
idioms?
12:54 < quantumelixir> *Go
12:55 < skelterjohn> http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html
12:56 < uriel> adg: ok, cool, just wondering if I was missings something
12:57 <@adg> nsf: omg plz syntax wtf lol
12:57 < nsf> :\
12:57 <@adg> nsf: ;)
12:58 <@adg> quantumelixir: golang.org has a lot, also check out
blog.golang.org
12:58 < quantumelixir> I'd overlooked that resource.  Thanks skelterjohn
12:58 < nsf> I understand when people ask such things about C++, but Go..
seriously
12:58 < nsf> it's the simplest language in the universe
12:58 <@adg> nsf: he just wasn't aware of `these strings`
12:59 < skelterjohn> i'm clearly incompetent and should try my hand at
python instead
12:59 <@adg> it is simple, but even i continue to learn about it
12:59 <@adg> skelterjohn: :P
12:59 < quantumelixir> I'm just starting to learn, so I thought it'd be best
to do everything the way it's _meant_ to be ;)
12:59 < nsf> python is much more complex
12:59 < quantumelixir> I found python rather easy -- to learn that is
12:59 <@adg> quantumelixir: a good resource is to read the standard library
12:59 < nsf> python has many many many many many many many dark corners
12:59 < nsf> :)
12:59 <@adg> quantumelixir: http://nf.id.au/on-learning-go
13:00 < quantumelixir> Never said it was easy to master :)
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13:00 <@adg> niemeyer: hullo!
13:00 < taruti> Is there a reason one cannot call methods on an interface
pointer directly?
13:01 < quantumelixir> adg: Oh, he's the guy whose talk convinced me to try
Go ;)
13:01 < niemeyer> adg: Yo!
13:01 <@adg> taruti: an interface pointer, or an interface value?
13:01 < taruti> adg: interface pointer
13:01 <@adg> taruti: if the former, its' because we wanted to discourage
people from using pointers to interfaces
13:01 < nsf> interface value is a pointer
13:02 <@adg> taruti: it's almost certainly a mistake to do so, as nsf points
out, interface values are effectively pointers
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13:03 <@adg> quantumelixir: that guy is me :)
13:03 < quantumelixir> How do I effect string to number conversion?
13:03 < taruti> adg: in this instance it is important to save space and 99%
of the values are nil.
13:03 < skelterjohn> quantumelixir: look at the package strconv
13:03 < quantumelixir> adg: Small world, eh?
13:04 < quantumelixir> Awesome talk btw!  adg
13:04 <@adg> quantumelixir: thanks!  where was that?
13:04 < nsf> taruti: exceptional case, that's your problem then, dereference
the pointer and call the method
13:04 < quantumelixir> Oh, I wasn't physically there though.  :)
13:04 < quantumelixir> skelterjohn: thank!
13:04 < quantumelixir> *thanks
13:04 <@adg> taruti: sure, well in that case yeah you've just gotta put up
with (*foo).blah()
13:05 < taruti> nsf: ok :)
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13:06 < niemeyer> taruti: If 99% of the values are nil, use a sparse
structure
13:07 < skelterjohn> space/time tradeoff
13:08 < skelterjohn> but using a map[MyKey]*MyInterface would probably make
the code fairly simple
13:08 < skelterjohn> and the map type is pretty fast
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13:09 < niemeyer> skelterjohn: With the 99% of pointers you saved not
allocating them, you can safely use a map[MyKey]MyInterface map ;-)
13:09 < skelterjohn> right - my point was that the map solution will be
slower
13:09 < skelterjohn> and that the big-pointer-array solution will take more
space
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13:12 < niemeyer> skelterjohn: Sure..  using a pointer to an interface is
also slower than an interface.  Feels like we're early optimizing an unknown use
case, which is not really useful.
13:12 < skelterjohn> but the second point was that the map is pretty fast so
it's not really much of a tradeoff
13:12 * niemeyer moves on
13:12 < skelterjohn> add to that teh fact that you can use the same code -
the map will return nil when it isn't in there just like the array
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13:20 <@adg> one thing i've learned from working with rob and russ is that
you should always write the simplest possible correct solution first
13:21 <@adg> benchmark it, figure out if and why it's slow, and then write a
more complex, optimized version
13:21 <@adg> maybe taruti has already done that, though :)
13:21 * adg goes to bed
13:21 < taruti> yes :)
13:22 < quantumelixir> Which library has the max function?
13:23 < taruti> there is none
13:23 < quantumelixir> So the shortest way to do that is to write an if?
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13:29 < niemeyer> adg: Have a good night
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13:37 < quantumelixir> What's the exponent operator?
13:37 < quantumelixir> Raising to the power..
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13:46 < niemeyer> quantumelixir: math.Pow
13:49 < quantumelixir> noted.
13:50 < quantumelixir> If I have a string s := "1234", is this C-like way of
getting the numbers advisable in Go (with all the Unicode business): s[i] - '0'
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14:19 < wrtp> quantumelixir: that's fine.
14:19 < wrtp> assuming all the characters in your string are digits
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14:27 < quantumelixir> wrtp: Thanks.
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14:40 < quantumelixir> How do I (only) declare a map in global scope?
14:40 < skelterjohn> var myMap map[key]value
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14:40 < skelterjohn> outside of a function
14:40 < skelterjohn> same as inside
14:41 < quantumelixir> oh
14:41 < quantumelixir> Is there a concept of static variables?
14:41 < skelterjohn> C/C++ static or java static
14:41 < quantumelixir> C/C++
14:41 < skelterjohn> don't believe so
14:42 < skelterjohn> for either, actually
14:42 < quantumelixir> Regarding the passing of arguments, values are
immutable so they must be passed as reference right?
14:42 < skelterjohn> whaaaat
14:43 < quantumelixir> s := "asdf"; foo(s)
14:43 < skelterjohn> think of it like you think of c
14:43 < skelterjohn> except strings are a special data structure
14:43 < skelterjohn> a string is a struct that points to some string data
14:43 < skelterjohn> and length data
14:43 < skelterjohn> and when you say s1+s2, it creates a new string
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14:43 < quantumelixir> Fine.  So, internally a pointer is passed to that
struct
14:44 < skelterjohn> and s1 += s2 also gets anew string
14:44 < quantumelixir> But s1 += s2 is an expr/statement?
14:44 < Jayflux> What are you guys using this language for?  Put of interest
14:44 < skelterjohn> inside foo it will look at the same thing that s points
to when foo is called
14:44 < skelterjohn> but if s is reassigned to something else, foo's s will
not change
14:44 < skelterjohn> Jayflux: I do machine learning stuff with go
14:44 < skelterjohn> and also various utilities
14:45 < quantumelixir> skelterjohn: Exactly.  Just like a pointer then..
14:45 < skelterjohn> a matrix library and a build tool
14:45 < skelterjohn> quantumelixir: pretty much, yeah
14:48 < skelterjohn> quantumelixir: except, since you can't modify or
dereference a string, it's useful to think of it as a regular value
14:50 < Jayflux> Will it catch on skelterjohn
14:50 < skelterjohn> go?  or the stuff i made
14:51 < Jayflux> Go
14:52 < skelterjohn> who knows?  i like it.  i find that i can write working
code very quickly with go
14:52 < skelterjohn> i'm not much of an evangelist, though
14:52 < skelterjohn> it might even be that the day of a language "catching
on" and becoming ubiquitous has passed
14:53 < skelterjohn> how can i tell if, at some point, it has caught on?
14:54 < Jayflux> Cool
14:55 < skelterjohn> ok, then
14:55 < quantumelixir> skelterjohn, can you tell me any exciting concurrent
stuff that you've done with Go in ML?
14:55 < skelterjohn> one thing that i work with is called monte-carlo tree
search
14:56 < skelterjohn> and doing things in parallel makes a lot of sense there
14:56 < skelterjohn> though for most of the ML things i do in go doesn't
make use of the concurrency available
14:56 < skelterjohn> i like go aside from that
14:56 < quantumelixir> neat
14:57 < aiju> monte-carlo search?
14:57 < aiju> return array[rand() % len]
14:57 < quantumelixir> lol
14:57 < skelterjohn> aiju: if you want to find the average of the elements
in that array, doing that a bunch of times isn't as silly as you might think :)
14:58 < skelterjohn> which is, in essence, what you try to do with MCTS
15:00 < aiju> i'd say it's sensible for the average
15:00 < aiju> given a large enough list and a reasonable number of samples
15:01 < aiju> but you can probably do easily 1M elements with plain looping
through and summing up
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15:02 < skelterjohn> problem with trees is that the number of elements to
look at grows exponentially with the depth of the tree
15:02 < aiju> oh heh
15:02 < skelterjohn> so doing monte-carlo approximations is very useful
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15:03 < quantumelixir> so is it searching or averaging?
15:03 < skelterjohn> searching for things to average?
15:03 < aiju> or averaging things to search?
15:03 < skelterjohn> there is a bit more background required here to know
what i'm talking about
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15:04 < quantumelixir> MC comes up in all sorts of random places
15:04 < skelterjohn> very funny
15:04 < aiju> quantumelixir: hahahaha
15:04 < aiju> was that pun intended?
15:04 < quantumelixir> ;)
15:05 < quantumelixir> aiju: yeah
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15:07 < quantumelixir> Is there any potential for rethinking the traditional
sequential algorithms in the context of the new possiblities that Go introduces?
For instance, BFS, DFS, sorting, etc..?
15:07 < aiju> yes
15:08 < quantumelixir> Can you take any one algo and just show me how?  Not
in detail..  just the outline
15:08 < quantumelixir> I'm only learning Go and I'd like to know what's
possible
15:08 < aiju> well, to search just spawn several goroutines for searching
15:09 < quantumelixir> yes, when the algorithm is straightforward I suppose
the benefits are too
15:09 < quantumelixir> but what about a little more complicated algorithms
that involve branching and all that
15:09 < aiju> in quicksort you can replace the recursion with goroutine
calls if the lists are sufficiently large
15:09 < skelterjohn> keep in mind - people have been thinking about ways to
do concurrent search long before go was around :)
15:10 < skelterjohn> aiju: that would have 2N goroutines for an array of
length N
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15:10 < aiju> huh?
15:10 < skelterjohn> or order N, since you said "sufficiently large"
15:11 < skelterjohn> with qsort, the recursive call is made 2N times
15:11 < aiju> well, a 2000 element list gets split into two 1000 element
lists (neglecting the pivot)
15:11 < skelterjohn> a guy was actually talking about doing this with
mergesort(same as qsort, more or less) a while back
15:12 < skelterjohn> he had the recursive call in a new goroutine and was
wondering why it was performing so poorly compared to the non-concurrent version
15:12 < skelterjohn> answer was - 2N goroutines is a lot of overhead
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15:12 < quantumelixir> mergesort is more complicated for distributed
solutions
15:12 < aiju> on those two 1000 element lists you can invoke goroutines
15:12 < quantumelixir> the two subproblems aren't uncoupled
15:13 < quantumelixir> quicksort nicely decouples the two subproblems
15:13 < aiju> you shouldn't do this for too small lists
15:13 < quantumelixir> yeah, you'd have to choose a break-even point
depending on the system
15:13 < skelterjohn> too small lists, or if your goroutines outnumber your
cores
15:14 < quantumelixir> But I saw a clever idea for decoupling the mergesort
"merges"
15:14 < aiju> what's Go's calling convention?
15:14 < skelterjohn> the same guy did some research and found that the best
way to parallelize mergesort was on the merge step
15:15 < skelterjohn> he linked me the slides to a talk, but i didn't
completely follow it
15:16 < quantumelixir> skelterjohn: yeah..  something having to do with
picking arbitrary elements and finding their ranks in each of the lists
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15:19 < skelterjohn> quantumelixir: what caused you to pick up go?
15:20 < quantumelixir> I've taken up a course on Distributed Systems in my
college.  I thought I could try some of the algorithms in practice
15:21 < quantumelixir> There are some standard problems in that field like
problems of timing, leader election, etc.
15:21 < skelterjohn> sure
15:21 < quantumelixir> The course has only started and I don't know too much
either
15:22 < skelterjohn> it would certainly be good for both your course and
your go abilities to do all the examples in go :)
15:22 < aiju> leader election?  i'd use the german term Führer election lol
15:22 < skelterjohn> aaaaand the chatroom has been godwinned
15:22 < skelterjohn> sure took long enough - been more than a year!
15:22 < skelterjohn> gnight everybody
15:22 < aiju> what the fuck?
15:22 < skelterjohn> (messing with you)
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15:24 < Broady> oh buggar it.  just spent 10 mins fiddling with ClientConn
when there's just http.Get to use
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16:21 < wrtp> skelterjohn: did you see my parallel mergesort example code
that i posted to the mailing list?
16:21 < skelterjohn> i did not
16:21 < skelterjohn> but i'd like to
16:22 < wrtp> http://pastebin.com/9Ja9jn6a
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16:23 < skelterjohn> so this parallelizes on the recursive step
16:23 < wrtp> on the merge step
16:23 < skelterjohn> not like i was talking about before, i don't believe
16:24 < skelterjohn> i'm not sure why you say "on the merge step", though
16:25 < skelterjohn> it seems like straightforward code...  mergesort with
two calls to "go mergesort"
16:25 < wrtp> yeah, but you overlook the significance of the "running"
channel
16:25 < wrtp> which limits the number of concurrent merge processes
16:26 < skelterjohn> that's all well and good, but it's still a different
algorithm
16:26 < skelterjohn> i think this is the one:
http://www.csd.uoc.gr/~hy555/dbpp/text/node127.html
16:26 < skelterjohn> not the same reference the guy gave me before
16:26 < skelterjohn> but it talks about a parallel way to merge two sorted
lists
16:26 < wrtp> oh, i didn't mean to imply i'd come up with the same algorithm
as you mentioned
16:26 < wrtp> ah, that's cool, i'd assumed it wasn't possibe
16:26 < wrtp> s/ibe/ible/
16:27 < wrtp> i just did the obvious thing
16:29 < wrtp> if you can't apply any parallelism to the merge, then the max
speedup you can get through parallelism is 1/3rd i think
16:31 < skelterjohn> why exactly 1/3?
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16:31 < skelterjohn> well, i guess you have log n levels
16:32 < wrtp> 0.25+0.25^2+0.25^3+...
16:32 < skelterjohn> the lowest of which is done in one step, then 2 steps,
then 4 up to 2^(lg n)
16:32 < skelterjohn> i don't know where your numbers are from
16:36 < wrtp> ah, i think i'm a bit wrong headed.
16:38 < skelterjohn> every element that you merge gets looked at log n times
16:38 < skelterjohn> exactly once for each level of recursion
16:38 < skelterjohn> since there are n elements, if you do not parallelize
the merge step, your algorithm will run in n lg n
16:40 < taruti> Has anyone got an example of using jsonrpc together with
http?
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16:42 < wrtp> no, i think i was thinking along the right lines
16:42 < taruti> hmm, got it.
16:42 < skelterjohn> wrtp: can you explain?
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16:44 < wrtp> i'm thinking of the best way to explain...
16:44 < taruti> or not :(
16:44 < wrtp> mm
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16:48 < wrtp> my reasoning went like this: if you just look at the top
level, you've got the final merge (n elements) and two sub merges (each n/2
elements), so an approximation to the final time if those merges run in parallel
is nt + nt/2 where t is the time to merge one element.
16:48 < wrtp> so at that top level, the gain from parallelism is 25%
16:48 < wrtp> i.e.  (nt + nt/2) / (nt + nt)
16:50 < skelterjohn> ok
16:50 < wrtp> and then i reasoned that the same applies recursively, so each
stage in the recursion can be speeded up by 25%, which means the overall speedup
is 0.25 + 0.25*0.25 + 0.25*0.25*0.25...  which sums to 1/3rd
16:51 < skelterjohn> well, for the top level, you looked at how long the top
two levels took
16:51 < skelterjohn> you might be double counting the savings at the second
level
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17:02 < cco3-hampster> In the example here:
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#composite_literals how are we able to
access f.fd and the other lowercase named fields of f?  I can't get this to work
for me
17:04 < wrtp> cco3-hampster: it's not referring to os.File, but locally
defined type called File.
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17:06 < wrtp> skelterjohn: yeah, i'm totally wrong.  minimum time taken by
fully parallel mergesort is 2n.  time taken by serial mergesort is n * log2(n).
limit of 2n / n log2(n) as n tends to infinity is 0.
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17:07 < cco3-hampster> wrtp: yes, In my case I also have a locally defined
type, I get an "implicit assignment of unexported field" in another file where I
try to use this constructor though
17:08 < wrtp> cco3-hampster: can we see some code?
17:09 < cco3-hampster> wrtp: yea, I'm pastebinning it...sec
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17:11 < cco3-hampster> wrtp: so I may have been wrong about where the
problem is, but let me know if you see anything wrong with this:
http://pastebin.com/RnzaEbsN
17:11 < cco3-hampster> also, is there a paste tool that does go
highlighting?
17:12 < cco3-hampster> the error I'm getting is: deutsch.go:25: implicit
assignment of unexported field 'qubits' of quantum.QReg in method receiver
17:12 < cbeck> pastie.org I think
17:12 < cco3-hampster> deutsch.go is the second file, btw
17:12 < cco3-hampster> cbeck: thanks
17:12 < wrtp> importing ./quantum in main does not mean that quantum is
local to main
17:12 < cco3-hampster> wrtp: I know
17:13 < cco3-hampster> But I don't try using qubits there
17:13 < cco3-hampster> What am I doing that's illegal?
17:14 < wrtp> oh i see the problem
17:14 < cco3-hampster> great!
17:14 < wrtp> you should define Print on *QReg, not QReg
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17:14 < cco3-hampster> oh, ok
17:14 < wrtp> otherwise the caller must be able to pass the receiver by
value, which you can't do if it has unexported fields
17:15 < cco3-hampster> now tell me, is it better for the constructor to
return a pointer or a value (I'm not sure I quite understand the difference in go
yet)
17:16 < cbeck> Generally, a pointer
17:16 < cco3-hampster> ok, thanks
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17:29 < quantumelixir> Can I specify multiple targets in the Go-style
makefile?
17:30 < quantumelixir> *build multiple targets
17:31 < cbeck> no
17:31 < quantumelixir> thanks
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17:49 < skelterjohn> quantumelixir: go-gb.googlecode.com
17:49 < skelterjohn> (full disclosure, i wrote that tool)
17:49 < skelterjohn> but it makes it easy to build multiple targets (that
can reference each other)
17:52 < wrtp> quantumelixir: http://pastebin.com/9Ja9jn6a
17:52 < wrtp> not as clever as it could be, but it does exhibit some speedup
for suitably large datasets
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18:01 < cco3-hampster> how do I do exponentiation?  ** doesn't seem to
work...(this is a complex number if it matters)
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18:02 < cbeck> There's no builtin exponentiation operator
18:03 < cco3-hampster> cbeck: ok, thanks
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18:16 < aiju> is there some way to have Go's linker print a symbol table?
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18:18 < nsf> aiju: 6nm <objfile>.[685]
18:18 < aiju> well, that's for object files
18:18 < aiju> i mean with addresses
18:19 < nsf> hm..
18:19 < nsf> then I don't know
18:19 < nsf> although
18:19 < nsf> 6nm <elf_binary>
18:19 < nsf> prints it with addresses
18:19 < aiju> well, it's not ELF
18:20 < nsf> executable is elf
18:20 < nsf> or whatever OS you're using
18:20 < aiju> so i should probably create an ELF binary just for debugging
18:20 < nsf> yeah
18:20 < aiju> i'm using a.out
18:20 < nsf> because linker links object, changes their location, etc.
18:20 < nsf> a.out is elf on linux
18:20 < aiju> no
18:20 < aiju> the executable format a.out
18:20 < aiju> as in "the only nearly sane executable format"
18:20 < nsf> ok, but on linux no one uses it anymore
18:20 < aiju> sadly
18:20 < nsf> afaik
18:21 < nsf> or maybe I'm wrong
18:21 < nsf> I don't know :D
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18:21 <+iant> there were many problems with the a.out executable format
18:21 < cco3-hampster> How do I create a string of a certain size?  (is
there any sort of string constructor?)
18:21 < nsf> anyways, use 6nmm it's your tool
18:21 < aiju> iant: yes, being simple and comprehensible
18:21 < taruti> iant: with static linking?
18:21 <+iant> ELF is actually better documented
18:21 < nsf> cco3-hampster: create []byte and then convert it to string
18:21 < aiju> C# is better documented than Go
18:22 < aiju> that doesn't make C# simpler or better
18:22 <+iant> taruti: even with static linking, a.out was limited; e.g.,
there was no way to specify a required alignment
18:22 < nsf> cco3-hampster: strings are immutable
18:22 < cco3-hampster> nsf: oh, ok
18:22 <+iant> a.out had no way to group different types of sections together
18:22 <+iant> C++ global constructors/destructors were implemented via a
horrible hack
18:22 < aiju> C++ *is* a horrible hack
18:23 <+iant> global constructors and destructors are useful for many other
purposes as well
18:23 * nsf was going to say that
18:23 < nsf> :P
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18:23 < aiju> and what do we need more than three/four sections for?
18:24 <+iant> for example, the Linux kernel finds it very useful to put
initialization code in a different section, so that it can be discarded after
initialization is complete
18:24 < aiju> text, data, rodata and bss + debugging info
18:25 <+iant> for another example, gcc supports hot/cold block splitting, so
that code which is unlikely to be executed is put far away on a different
executable page; this is most naturally implemented using sections
18:25 <+iant> for another example, even in Go gccgo uses different sections
to hold type descriptors, so that identical type descriptors are only stored once
in the executable (6l does this using a different mechanism, but then 6l doesn't
use a.out either)
18:26 < aiju> unless you use -H
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18:29 < quantumelixir> wrtp: Nice.  I'll take a look at it.
18:30 < quantumelixir> skelterjohn: Looks fancy!  (go-gb)
18:30 < skelterjohn> fancy, lol
18:30 < quantumelixir> hehe
18:30 < skelterjohn> reminds me of some grading experiences i have had as a
TA
18:31 < skelterjohn> we tell the students exactly what their output format
must be like
18:31 < skelterjohn> and never failed to get a handful of submissions with
ascii art
18:31 < skelterjohn> nice little ascii splash screens
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18:31 < quantumelixir> awww..
18:31 < skelterjohn> saying "Welcome to quicksorter version 2.0!  copyright
me!"
18:31 < aiju> skelterjohn: reminds me of Tex
18:31 < quantumelixir> Ah, the innocence!
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18:33 < skelterjohn> aiju: what about tex?
18:33 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.51.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
18:33 < aiju> This is LaTeX 2e 3.14159.
18:33 < aiju> <shitloads of verbosity>
18:34 < quantumelixir> I always panic when I get stuck in the dreaded
"tex-prompt" when my compiles fail.
18:34 < skelterjohn> knuth should hire an artist to make some sweet ascii
art for it
18:34 < aiju> Knuth should redo it
18:35 < skelterjohn> latex is one of those tools that is "good enough" for
everyone to use it and "not bad enough" for anyone to take the time to create a
suitable replacement
18:35 < aiju> troff
18:35 < quantumelixir> security by mediocrity?
18:36 < nsf> hey, guys, I have a conceptual question, what do you think
about UI lib for terminals?  I've been working on something like that for a while,
but constantly have a feeling that I'm wasting my time
18:36 < skelterjohn> nsf: something like curses?
18:36 < aiju> you mean like ncurses?
18:36 < nsf> higher level
18:36 < taruti> something *saner* than curses hopefully
18:36 < aiju> but the same idea?
18:36 < nsf> widgets, layouts, events, etc.
18:36 < nsf> same look I'd say
18:37 < aiju> i.e.  DOS style fancy graphics?
18:37 < nsf> somewhat, yes
18:37 < skelterjohn> you know what would be neat, is if it were one api that
could handle actual windows too, and pass events around the same way
18:37 < skelterjohn> but sometimes you use a NewRealWindow()
18:37 < skelterjohn> and sometimes you use a NewTerminalWindow()
18:37 < nsf> you can't do that with terminals :D
18:38 < aiju> it would be neat if one could abolish that kind of UI
18:38 < nsf> unfortunately
18:38 < skelterjohn> nsf: why not?  certainly you wouldn't be able to add a
TerminalButton to a RealWindow or vice versa
18:38 < aiju> curses has its place and it's the past
18:38 < nsf> skelterjohn: people use different terminals
18:38 < Namegduf> If there's no decent common subset of functionality, what
you can do with it is kind of limited
18:38 < nsf> skelterjohn: on windows you can do that though
18:39 < aiju> windows terminals are really pathetic
18:39 < nsf> they are awesome
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18:39 < aiju> i can't resize them
18:39 < skelterjohn> nsf: I'm not sure i follow.  I'm just talking about an
API.  What about the API has to be specific to terminals, whether or not they're
on windows, and real graphic UIs?
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18:39 < Namegduf> The operations a terminal can support are severely limited
compared to a real graphical UI.
18:39 < nsf> skelterjohn: I don't like the idea
18:39 < skelterjohn> lol
18:39 < skelterjohn> ok
18:40 < skelterjohn> doesn't mean it can't be done!
18:40 < nsf> it more sounds like a fork of a terminal app (e.g.  urxvt)
18:40 < Namegduf> No, but it means it won't do anything useful.
18:40 < nsf> and yes
18:40 < nsf> all that are details
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18:40 < nsf> I mean in general what would you like to see
18:40 < Namegduf> The only point of using them "generically" is so that
operations that can be done on both can be generically done on both.
18:40 < nsf> nice GTK gui, nice HTML-based gui or nice terminal pseudo gui?
18:40 < aiju> 3D rendering
18:41 < skelterjohn> a nice pure go widget library
18:41 < Namegduf> If there's not many of those, and they aren't enough to
make a graphical UI that looks good
18:41 < aiju> nsf: neither
18:41 < Namegduf> Then your library won't be able to do anything.
18:41 < taruti> skelterjohn: write one!
18:41 < quantumelixir> Is "var a [2][3]int" just a declaration or
decl+initialization?
18:41 < nsf> aiju: you hate computers, aren't you?  :)
18:41 < aiju> nsf: no
18:41 < taruti> bonus points if it is based on draw
18:41 < aiju> nsf: i just hate GTK, web-based GUI and curses-based "GUI"s
18:41 < skelterjohn> taruti: I haven't got the time.
18:41 < aiju> taruti: meh draw
18:41 < Namegduf> quantumelixir: All declarations in Go create a
zero-initialised variable
18:41 < nsf> qt?  opengl?
18:41 < skelterjohn> Also, I'm probably not the best choice to create it
18:41 < aiju> plain X!
18:42 < nsf> there is no plain X anymore
18:42 < nsf> common, wake up
18:42 < aiju> i have no clue
18:42 < Namegduf> X is kind of awful
18:42 < skelterjohn> nsf: opengl
18:42 < nsf> no one even draws using X11
18:42 < skelterjohn> i do
18:42 < Namegduf> I think GTK+ and Qt are implementing Wayland backends
18:42 < nsf> it's all client-side these days
18:42 < nsf> fonts, etc.
18:42 < aiju> Qt probably works at least
18:42 < quantumelixir> Namegduf: Oh. Lot of things make sense now!
18:42 < skelterjohn> nsf: for my go experimentation code i use x11 to draw
debugging visualizations
18:43 < nsf> skelterjohn: that's your choice :) whatever...  and again we're
digging into details, I was talking about conceptual abstract ideas
18:43 < skelterjohn> i will admit that it isn't very good
18:43 < nsf> so..  no one wants to use terminal UI if there is a better
alternative, right?
18:43 < aiju> yeah
18:43 < skelterjohn> but i can set the color of certain pixels
18:43 < skelterjohn> nsf: right
18:44 < aiju> skelterjohn: i use SDL for that kind of thing
18:44 < nsf> ok, that's what I wanted to know
18:44 < skelterjohn> nsf: I think something using opengl would be very nice
18:44 < aiju> but please use neither opengl nor gtk :D
18:44 < skelterjohn> aiju: I've had trouble getting go+SDL working on my
computer
18:44 < nsf> skelterjohn: for individual pixels, yeah..  opengl or sdl
18:44 < nsf> but in Go (6g/8g) opengl is broken
18:44 < aiju> uh huh
18:44 < nsf> on nvidia
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18:44 < nsf> (which is the majority of 3d consumer base on linux)
18:44 < taruti> Looks like it is impossible to get the jsonrpc working with
http package :(
18:44 < nsf> so..  sdl is a nice choice for pixel drawing :)
18:45 < aiju> is there some way to convert a pointer to a slice?
18:45 < nsf> aiju: yes
18:45 < nsf> there is a blog post about that actually somewhere
18:45 < aiju> which would be?
18:45 < aiju> ugh
18:45 < nsf> one sec
18:45 * taruti ponders hacking an alternative jsonrpc-server
18:45 < aiju> i had hoped for something simple
18:45 < nsf> aiju: it's simple
18:45 < aiju> like makeslice(pointer, len)
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18:46 < exch> what kind of a pointer?  C pointer?
18:46 < aiju> a memory address
18:46 < aiju> (MMIO)
18:47 < skelterjohn> you can convert it to an array using reflect, if you
know how many elements are in it
18:47 < aiju> sounds awfully complicated
18:47 < skelterjohn> reflect and unsafe, probably
18:47 < skelterjohn> i haven't thought it through
18:47 < skelterjohn> a makeslice(pointer,len) function wouldn't be
memory-safe
18:47 < exch> If it's a pointer to a slice, just dereference it..  If the
pointer represents a completely different type, you're in trouble.  Go does not
like you circumventing it's type system
18:47 < nsf> aiju:
http://blog.labix.org/2010/11/28/removing-seatbelts-with-the-go-language-for-mmap-support
18:48 < nsf> see the last snippet in this article
18:48 < aiju> exch: well i have a memory address which i took out of the hat
18:48 < nsf> it uses reflect.SliceHeader
18:49 < nsf> basically you get a slice pointer, cast it to the
*reflect.SliceHeader, and fill the fields
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18:50 < Namegduf> Hmm.
18:53 < aiju> is there a builtin memset (like copy)?
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18:53 < nsf> no
18:53 < nsf> but there is a way to zero a struct
18:53 < nsf> var x MyStruct
18:53 < nsf> x = MyStruct{}
18:53 < Namegduf> It comes zeroed by default
18:54 < Namegduf> The second line would zero an already existing one, thuogh
18:54 < nsf> yes, and here I'm using that fact
18:54 < Namegduf> *though
18:54 < skelterjohn> there was a ...  between the first and second lines
18:54 < skelterjohn> where x was modified
18:54 < nsf> Namegduf: I meant that it contains some non-zero data
18:54 < nsf> of course
18:54 < nsf> skelterjohn: yeah :)
18:54 < KirkMcDonald> /* ...  */
18:54 <+iant> seems like it would be reasonable to have a memset like
function for []byte in the bytes package
18:54 <+iant> not sure when else memset would be meaningful
18:54 < aiju> zeroing a slice
18:55 < KirkMcDonald> Go could support slice assignment.
18:55 < KirkMcDonald> x[:] = 0
18:55 < Namegduf> Assign zero to everything in the slice?
18:55 < KirkMcDonald> Yes.
18:55 <+iant> yeah, we've avoided that so far
18:56 < nsf> I think it's kind of optimization and can be avoided, what's
wrong with loop?
18:56 < KirkMcDonald> I never had complaints about it in D.
18:56 < nsf> if one wants it really fast, one can use C
18:56 < skelterjohn> with what language can you do that, KirkMcDonald?
18:56 < Namegduf> D is already very featureful.
18:56 < skelterjohn> ah
18:56 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: D can do it.
18:56 < Namegduf> Go isn't.
18:56 < KirkMcDonald> In fact, the syntax can do two somewhat different
things.
18:57 < Namegduf> And you say no one's ever complained about that?  :P
18:57 < skelterjohn> what's the second thing?
18:57 < KirkMcDonald> If x is a []T, then assigning a T like that assigns to
each element of the slice.
18:57 < KirkMcDonald> Assigning a []T would basically do what copy() does.
18:57 < skelterjohn> ah
18:57 < KirkMcDonald> (Except the lengths have to match.)
18:58 < KirkMcDonald> Then there is the way Python handles slice assignment,
which is a little wackier.
18:59 < nsf> for i := range slice { slice[i] = 0 }
18:59 < KirkMcDonald> The following is valid Python, for instance (assuming
x is a list): x[y:y] = [1, 2, 3, 4]
18:59 < KirkMcDonald> That inserts the given list between x[y] and x[y+1].
19:00 < KirkMcDonald> I don't endorse this for Go, however.  :-)
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19:12 < aiju> iant: you don't happen to know whether the calling convention
is documented anywhere?
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19:28 <+iant> aiju: the 6g/8g calling convention is very simple: all
arguments are pushed on the stack
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19:46 < aiju> iant: i already figured that one out …
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21:11 < cco3-hampster> If I want to put: []int {1, 2} on multiple lines, I
get an error (I'm trying to write out a matrix nicely)...suggestions?
21:11 < cco3-hampster> ok,...I take that back
21:11 < cco3-hampster> it's not giving me errors now...not sure what I'm
doing differently
21:12 < cbeck> If the end bracket is on a line of its own, you need a comma
following the last element
21:15 < cco3-hampster> cbeck: ah, thanks
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21:39 < dsal> go isn't not...  going for me on OS X (homebrew tip build).
My programs do this instantly: throw: malloc/free - deadlock
21:39 < dsal> Er, sorry for the double negative.  Just got back from lunch.
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22:03 < dsal> Has anyone tried running go apps on OS X lately?  I wrote a
great tool to do something I need but it won't go.  :(
22:05 < dforsyth_> i do everything on os x, works fine
22:05 < dsal> How did you get/build go?
22:05 < dsal> I've only got two apps I've written, but they both blow up
immediately.
22:06 < dsal> (I suppose it's worth pointing out that they *used* to work)
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22:14 < dsal> Yeah, hello world blows up all over my screen:
http://pastebin.com/QBT1DbPs
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22:24 < dsal> Clean build from source also doesn't work at all:
http://pastebin.com/qfHcyfVD
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23:03 < wrtp> dsal: try making sure everything is clean
23:03 < dsal> That was a fresh hg clone.
23:04 < wrtp> i've no problems
23:04 < wrtp> can you build the distrib?  i.e.  does it pass the tests?
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23:05 < dsal> ./all.bash does seem to be happy.
23:05 < wrtp> in that case it's a problem with your code, because all.bash
runs lots of go code...
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23:06 < dsal> I don't think it's my code.  That code is very simple, and it
also worked when I pasted it into the web thingy on the go page.  It's got
something to do with environment/installation/something
23:07 < wrtp> you could paste it and i could see if it worked on my box
23:07 < wrtp> mac os x
23:07 < dsal> It's in here: http://pastebin.com/qfHcyfVD
23:08 < dsal> If you have any go code working at all, it's going to be OK.
I've been trying both homebrew and a custom build.
23:09 < wrtp> what happens if you try running, say, godoc --help
23:09 < wrtp> ?
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23:12 < wrtp> if you've succeeded in running all.bash then you've already
run lots of go code and it worked
23:14 < KBme> he still hasn't defined "blows up"
23:14 < Namegduf> The pastebin did.
23:14 < KBme> oh
23:14 < KBme> he did, sorry
23:15 < wrtp> it might be that $GOBIN/gc is not the one he's running
23:15 < wrtp> i mean 6g of course
23:16 < m4dh4tt3r> that can be easily remedied by 'which 6g'
23:16 < wrtp> indeed
23:17 < wrtp> assuming $PATH is exported of course :-)
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23:19 < KBme> well, if it's not and he's calling /path/to/6g directly this
issue isn't relevant
23:20 < wrtp> dsal: you still here?  i've gotta got any moment.
23:24 < wrtp> s/got any/go any/
23:24 < wrtp> oh well
23:24 < wrtp> bye all
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23:29 < dsal> DOH
23:29 < dsal> I have another version installed.  :/
23:29 < dsal> Seems really obvious now that somebody asked.  Thanks.  :)
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 14 00:00:02 2011