--- Log opened Fri Jan 28 00:00:05 2011
00:00 < temoto> I wouldn't say 'haskell use stm'.  It has a library.  You're
not supposed to use it everywhere.  And it is surely not anything like built into
language.
00:00 < KBme> oh, i see.  didn't know that
00:00 < temoto> Though it rocks.  :)
00:01 < KBme> i just don't get haskell
00:01 < KBme> it's syntax makes me want to run and hide
00:01 < temoto> It has almost no syntax.  :)
00:01 < KBme> oh, there is a bunch of stuff
00:01 < KBme> lists, but also weird stuff
00:02 < KBme> like $, .|., and then some
00:02 < temoto> That's not syntax.
00:02 < temoto> $ is an operator name.  You could define it yourself.
00:03 < KBme> heh, what i learn in #go :)
00:03 < Boney> temoto: having skimmed that article it looks like stm is hard
in imperative languages (I agree).
00:04 < temoto> Haskell is damn wierd - no doubt about that.  Requires you
to forget all you ever known.  But it's really not about syntax.
00:04 < KBme> uhum
00:04 < Boney> but that Duffy's conclusion is that "you need other things
[like purity] before STM works nicly" (paraphrased).
00:04 < KBme> yeah, it freaks me out
00:05 < Boney> which I agree with.
00:05 < Boney> temoto: if you took away Monads and Lazyness haskell would be
much saner :-)
00:05 < temoto> Boney, i read/heard SPJ comment on that move.  His primary
points: 1) the STM.NET team was really high professional 2) they took very hard
task 3) they could win if they took lesser task.
00:06 < Boney> temoto: makes sense.
00:06 < temoto> i don't quite remember what was the lesser task.  maybe
implementing STM without interoperation with native code
00:07 < Boney> probably, it can work really well if you eithet don't let
side-effects excape the transation (hard) or don't care if side effects can escape
the transation.
00:07 < temoto> It just doesn't fit in my head how they wanted to warp
native calls into STM.
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00:08 < Boney> yeah, I never read up on the specifics of .NET + STM, I'm not
interested in .NET.
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00:08 < Boney> but I agree it'd be a very difficult project.
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00:19 < uriel> adg: yes, but it would be nice to have a more centralized
place for both comments and (semi-official?) responses...
00:19 <@adg> uriel: the comments on my go blog have been of limited use
00:19 <@adg> (the personal one)
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00:19 <@adg> and people ask stupid questions like "Why should I learn Go
instead of OCaml?"
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00:20 <@adg> I don't really want to have to moderate those, or even respond
to them in an official capacity
00:20 <@adg> the blog posts are written with the idea of being artefacts
that will last a long time
00:20 <@adg> i don't want just anyone to come along and annotate them
00:20 < uriel> yes, but I'm quite sure your personal blog gets much lower
traffic than the main Go blog (but I guess I could be worng), and the problem is
that some of the questions people post in agregators either get no answers, or
even worse, get wrong answers from people that don't even use Go...
00:22 < uriel> but I guess that is reasonable, on the other hand, with
things changing so fast, while the blog posts are very good and high quality, I'm
not sure they are quite as timeless...  anyway, obviously up to you, I'm very
happy that such great stuff gets written,
00:22 < uriel> just thought it would be a good opportunity to engage more
with some people
00:22 < uriel> that might get no response or misinformation instead..
00:22 < Xenith> What's wrong with using the mailing list?
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00:27 < skelterjohn> it's just another way to spread the message
00:27 < skelterjohn> the ML is really for people who are already interested
in go
00:27 < skelterjohn> blog posts have a much wider audience
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00:31 <@adg> it's true
00:32 < fzzbt> there are so many mails, often poorly written or just plain
spam.  it's hard to keep up with a ML. blogs are nicer to read and find through
search engines, especially if one is looking for something specific.
00:33 <@adg> but people rarey, if ever, post questions related specificaly
to teh blog s
00:33 <@adg> the questions on the mailing list are about specific problems
00:36 < fzzbt> true.  ML more discussion oriented, whereas blogs are maybe
better for presenting stuff.
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02:47 < uriel> adg: where is Go: http://code.google.com/more/table/ ? ;P
02:51 < decaf> the word "go" is too generic to search at google.  it seems
no spesific coding about this
03:00 < uriel> ?
03:00 < uriel> and Wave is not?
03:01 < uriel> fuck, what about "web"?
03:03 < skelterjohn> well, that's a table of APIs and dev products
03:03 < skelterjohn> go is a language
03:04 < decaf> they did an exception for "The Who"
03:04 < decaf> or search engine code became intelligent eventually
03:04 < skelterjohn> ??
03:05 < skelterjohn> oh not talking about the table
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03:17 < skelterjohn> is there any way to set it up so that a googlecode or
github project will mirror a project from the other site?
03:17 < skelterjohn> and keep up with updates, etc
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03:50 < KBme> i bet you can do a cronjob on appengine
03:52 < skelterjohn> well, what if i forget about the automatic bit
03:52 < skelterjohn> is there a command that will do it?
03:52 < skelterjohn> import all the commits, their comments, etc?
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04:24 < KBme> git svn?
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04:25 < KBme> oh, with hg...hmmm
04:26 < KBme> skelterjohn: http://hg-git.github.com/
04:26 < KBme> ;)
04:27 < KBme> 'nite
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09:17 < hokapoka> I'm sharding an app, and intend to use the rpc package to
communicate between machines.  I have a dedicated service that's a manager, where
I've been using channels I would send a signal down the channel to another service
on the same machine.  As I cann't use channels over rpc, I was going to send the
rpc call from the manager to a node, but in order for the manager to know there's
a node avaliable I'm planning on making the node send an initial cal
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09:18 < hokapoka> And once the node has finished it sends another RPC call
back to the manager at which point the manager knows that it's again avaliable.
09:18 < wrtp> iant: i've found the cause of the bug in cgo
09:18 < hokapoka> Any better suggestions?
09:19 < wrtp> hokapoka: you could use netchan instead
09:19 < hokapoka> Would be fantastic if I could send signal through a
channel to remote nodes.
09:20 < hokapoka> oh.
09:20 < hokapoka> netchan...
09:20 < hokapoka> oh brilliant
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09:20 < hokapoka> Many thanks wrtp.
09:21 < wrtp> np
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09:28 < taruti> netchan is cute.  now if it would be robust...
09:29 < hokapoka> oh, is there some stablity issues with it?
09:30 < taruti> hokapoka: gob + untrusted peers is bad.
09:30 < wrtp> taruti: it's being actively worked on.
09:30 < wrtp> by the time hokapoka has finished the app, it'll probably be
done.
09:31 < taruti> wrtp: even resource limits?
09:31 < hokapoka> "untrusted"
09:31 < aiju> use RSA
09:31 < aiju> problem solved
09:31 < wrtp> c.f.  http://codereview.appspot.com/4084044/
09:31 < wrtp> aiju: how does that solve the problem?
09:32 < wrtp> it might stop people corrupting the traffic en route, but it
doesn't stop malicious clients
09:32 < aiju> wrtp: that was a joke
09:32 < wrtp> oh.  ha ha.
09:32 < aiju> i'm pretty sure you can come up with some weird cryptographic
scheme
09:32 < wrtp> i'm pretty sure you can't.
09:33 < wrtp> taruti: yeah, resource limits are hard when you can sent
arbitrarily sized slices across the net.
09:34 < wrtp> but...  you can get around that by simply not having channels
that hold slices.
09:34 < taruti> wrtp: yes, they are hard, but must be implemented somehow.
09:34 < wrtp> it's a choice for the person making the app
09:34 < taruti> or strings
09:34 < wrtp> yeah, true
09:35 < taruti> hmm.  a per-goroutine alloc limit would solve this niftily
09:35 < wrtp> maybe you could specify a max message size to the gob decoder.
09:36 < wrtp> taruti: i don't think that would be good.
09:36 < taruti> or that
09:36 < wrtp> taruti: because you don't know which alloc will tip you over
the limit.
09:36 < wrtp> it might be just calling a function.
09:37 < wrtp> also, how do you know how much a goroutine has allocated?
09:38 < taruti> wrtp: it seems to me that a go-routine like "read data from
network, unmarshal, stuff it into a channel" is quite common and atm somewhat
nontrivial to do safely.
09:38 < wrtp> is there anything else that's hard about it besides resource
usage?
09:38 < Ina> Ooh, 'defer' is handy :D
09:38 < aiju> defer is mean
09:39 < taruti> wrtp: doing it safely (i.e.  resources)
09:39 * wrtp likes defer too.
09:39 < taruti> defer <3
09:39 < wrtp> taruti: if your message size is limited, then your resources
are limited too
09:39 < wrtp> so i think that would solve the problem.
09:39 < taruti> wrtp: which seems to limit serialization to json
09:39 < wrtp> huh?
09:40 < aiju> what resources are you talking about?  :P
09:40 < wrtp> is there anything about gobs that precludes a message size
limit?
09:40 < wrtp> aiju: memory
09:40 < aiju> machines have infinite RAM for practical purposes :D
09:40 < wrtp> aiju: nope.  not when someone keeps on sending you 4GB
strings!
09:41 < wrtp> sorry, 2GB is the max.
09:41 < aiju> lolwut
09:41 < taruti> wrtp: think of a message like "<array-length:
1000000000000><value-1><value-2><end of message>" and a
decoder that first allocates by the array length and then starts reading the
elements.  instant dos.
09:41 < wrtp> yeah, but it doesn't have to work like that.
09:42 < wrtp> if the decoder only allocates the array if the whole encoded
array will fit inside the message size limit, then we're ok
09:42 < taruti> yes.  but that is not (yet) supported.
09:42 < wrtp> sure
09:42 < wrtp> but as i said, it's being worked on.
09:43 < wrtp> it's not a particularly hard problem.
09:43 < wrtp> and it's not a problem in practice until you actually have
malicious clients.
09:43 < aiju> but why do you pass such things around?
09:43 < wrtp> what things?
09:43 < aiju> 2 GB strings
09:44 < hokapoka> So all of the issues soly arise for untrusted clients, if
I manage that at a network level there's little trouble using netchan with go.
09:44 < aiju> or are you talking about evil people?
09:44 < wrtp> yes
09:44 < taruti> hokapoka: yes
09:44 < aiju> oic
09:44 < wrtp> aiju: yes
09:44 < hokapoka> So I can always blame the network admins for not doing
their job :)
09:44 < wrtp> yeah.
09:44 * hokapoka passes the buck
09:45 < wrtp> but it would be nice to be able to use netchan with untrusted
clients, as part of a networked game, for example.
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09:46 < wrtp> BTW, the message size limit is trivial with gob because each
message on the gob stream comes preceded by a byte count.
09:46 < wrtp> if the decoder sees that the message is too big, it can just
discard it.
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10:03 < Ina> Out of curiosity, say func x returns string, int; can I use
fmt.Println(x(<args>)) and have it behave like I put in the string and the
int as arguments manually?
10:04 < wrtp> yes
10:07 < hokapoka> Is that the same as log.Printf(" foo : %s\nbar : $d",
x(<args) ) ?
10:07 < wrtp> no
10:07 < wrtp> that's not allowed
10:07 < hokapoka> Thought as much
10:08 < wrtp> "As a special case, if the return parameters of a function or
method g are equal in number and individually assignable to the parameters of
another function or method f, then the call f(g(parameters_of_g)) will invoke f
after binding the return values of g to the parameters of f in order.  The call of
f must contain no parameters other than the call of g.  If f has a final ...
parameter, it is assigned the return values of g that remain after assignment of
regular
10:08 < wrtp> parameters."
10:09 < aiju> wrtp: that makes it sound like both are allowed
10:09 < hokapoka> "equal in number"
10:09 < aiju> If f has a final ...  parameter, it is assigned the return
values of g that remain after assignment of regular
10:10 < aiju> log.Printf *has* a final ...  parameter
10:10 < aiju> oh but i see, it's not f(g())
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12:07 < Ina> hmm
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13:31 < skelterjohn> hmm indeed
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14:45 < plexdev> http://is.gd/pYkBwL by [Russ Cox] in go/doc/codelab/wiki/
-- doc/codelab/wiki: fixes
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15:05 < uriel> taruti: I think netchan's robustness is something that rob is
working on
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15:16 < exch> Minecraft is not good for my Go productivity ><
15:17 < aiju> lol
15:17 < aiju> now mein kraft gets mentioned on three channels i'm in
15:17 < aiju> why the fuck is everyone so obsessed with it?
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15:18 < exch> hard to explain
15:18 < exch> it's just incredibly addictive for some reason
15:18 < exch> it reminds of lego
15:18 < aiju> i find Go more addicting
15:18 < exch> which, imho, is the single most awesome toy mankind has ever
invented
15:19 < aiju> hahah
15:19 < aiju> no, the PDP-11 is the single most awesome toy mankind has ever
invented
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15:19 < exch> :P
15:19 < exch> I bet you could build one with lego
15:19 < aiju> hahahaah
15:19 < exch> and a working one at that
15:19 < exch> same with minecraft ^^
15:20 < exch> people built working ALU's in minecraft
15:20 < exch> soundmix panels
15:20 < aiju> yeah, i know
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16:58 < hokapoka> humm, just setup 3 new boxes checked out the latest
revision from hg and ./all.bash has stopped on gopack grc _test/net.a _gotest_.6
16:58 < hokapoka> when I say stopped, just hanging there
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17:06 < hokapoka> Go has build fine, I just created a simple hello world
test file on a machine that's still hung at the point above and it worked.
17:13 < hokapoka> And it's just failed on another machine that was fine,
different point tho, http.TestRedirect.
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17:22 < niemeyer> hokapoka: Yeah, it looks like there is an issue in the net
tests
17:22 < niemeyer> hokapoka: I *think* I've seen a commit flying by to fix it
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17:25 < makkalot> hi how go has a garbage collector it is not running some
vm right ? is it native code really ? Is there some explanation of internals of gc
?
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17:25 < aiju> makkalot: magic, no, yes, not really
17:25 < aiju> i think you're supposed to read source
17:26 < hokapoka> niemeyer: export DISABLE_NET_TESTS=1 disables the tests
and it goes through fine.
17:26 < Ina> You can have a perfectly functional garbage collector without a
VM :)
17:26 < makkalot> aiju: some brief explanation would be enough :)
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17:27 < hokapoka> As I was setting these up from blank boxes I figured that
I might have left something out.
17:27 < aiju> makkalot: well, what exactly do you want to know?
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17:27 < Ina> Just because most of the popular garbage collecting languages
use a VM doesn't mean it's a requirement for garbage collection.
17:27 < aiju> the GC is a simple mark and sweep GC
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17:28 < niemeyer> makkalot: Garbage collection is entirely orthogonal to
being a VM or not
17:28 < aiju> there are also GCs for C/C++ (though those suffer from
problems related to the language)
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17:29 < Ina> The primary problem with those is that your libraries likely
don't use garbage collection.
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17:29 < makkalot> hmm so compiler starts somehow the gc at background when
my application is started at separate goroutine maybe ?
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17:30 <+iant> makkalot: that would be nice, but what it actually does is
sometimes do a gc when a goroutine allocates memory
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17:32 < niemeyer> iant: But what if it doesn't allocate memory!
17:32 * niemeyer hides
17:32 < aiju> hahahaha
17:32 <+iant> um
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17:34 < gobeginner> probably silly question: can a package declare a method
on a type exported by another package?  I think its an illegal thing but Go's type
system is so different I'm not sure.
17:35 < niemeyer> gobeginner: Nope, it can't
17:35 < exch> gobeginner: nope.  You can make your own type of it and add
methods though.  type MyT foo.T; func (m MyT) F() { ...  }
17:36 < gobeginner> cool, thank you
17:36 < exch> foo.T doesn't have this method, but MyT does.  So you will
need to cast any instance of foo.T to MyT before calling it
17:39 < gobeginner> so if foo.T had method func (t T) E() could I call that
method E from MyT without casting it first?
17:40 < Ina> gobeginner, read up on embedding types :)
17:40 < gobeginner> OK, going to look
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17:46 < gobeginner> " When we embed a type, the methods of that type become
methods of the outer type, but when they are invoked the receiver of the method is
the inner type, not the outer one" looks rather like I can
17:47 < Ina> Yep, you can.  :)
17:47 < Ina> I'm just a fan of directing people towards the manual :)
17:48 < gobeginner> Its the right thing to do, thanks
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19:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/QQ9hhy by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: updates to the debugging tool.
19:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/q7mjLx by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: make nested interfaces work.
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19:11 < crazy2be> is there any diff library for go?
19:11 < aiju> diff library?
19:11 < crazy2be> like
19:12 < aiju> there is !=
19:12 < crazy2be> i have user-editable content
19:12 < aiju> which tells you if things are different
19:12 < crazy2be> a wiki of sorts
19:12 < aiju> you can also call diff using os
19:12 < crazy2be> and i want to be able to save revisions
19:12 < crazy2be> i was thinking of that, yes
19:12 < crazy2be> although i native library would probably work better
19:17 < crazy2be> hmm i'm actually suprised such functionality doesn't exist
yet
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19:19 < crazy2be> i suppose i should say "revision" library
19:20 < plexdev> http://is.gd/RlsXeV by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: fix build
19:21 < crazy2be> i suppose you could even use something like a mini-git
repository
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19:21 < crazy2be> or even a forever filesystem mounted at that point in the
filesystem
19:25 < KirkMcDonald> I've always found Python's difflib to be useful,
though it just does diffs, not all that other stuff.
19:25 < aiju> "that other stuff"?
19:26 < KirkMcDonald> What crazy2be is talking about, being a "revision"
library that knows about filesystems and things.
19:26 < KirkMcDonald> Python's difflib just takes two sequences and tells
you what's different.
19:27 < KirkMcDonald> http://docs.python.org/library/difflib
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19:43 < ajray> quick question about loggers
19:43 < KirkMcDonald> ajray: They cut down trees.
19:43 < ajray> :-)
19:43 < ajray> if i make a type with a logger in it
19:44 < ajray> why do i need a "go n.logger()" to start it?
19:45 < ajray> ref:
https://github.com/soul9/go-irc-chans/blob/master/irc.go#L302
19:45 < KirkMcDonald> Are you talking about the "log" package?
19:45 < ajray> yes
19:46 < KBme> you don't need that
19:46 < KirkMcDonald> That isn't a "log" package thing.
19:46 < ajray> i was confused by it
19:47 < KirkMcDonald> That's starting some method of the Network type.
19:47 < KirkMcDonald>
https://github.com/soul9/go-irc-chans/blob/master/util.go#L72
19:47 < ajray> i really havent done much go in the past year though, so i'm
reacclimating myself
19:47 < ajray> d'oh
19:47 < ajray> thanks KirkMcDonald
19:47 < KBme> that just prints incoming and outgoing messages
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19:47 < ajray> i missed that
19:48 < ajray> what do y'all use as code-diving tools while coding?
19:48 < ajray> (i'm in vim, so i'm used to cscope/ctags)
19:48 < KBme> this is what initiates the logger
https://github.com/soul9/go-irc-chans/blob/master/irc.go#L288
19:48 < KirkMcDonald> ajray: I use vim, *, and #.
19:49 * KBme uses godoc -http=:8080
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19:50 < KBme> ajray: tell me what you think of go-irc-chans, tho
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19:50 < ajray> KBme: i actually just forked it and am modifying it >.>
19:51 < KBme> oh heh
19:51 < aiju> ajray: "code diving tools"?
19:51 < ajray> i played around w/ IRC when i started playin w/ go
19:51 < ajray> KirkMcDonald: i have no idea what * and # are
19:51 < aiju> what's that supposed to be?
19:51 < KirkMcDonald> ajray: * and # search for the next and previous
instances of the identifier current under the cursor.
19:51 < KirkMcDonald> currently*
19:52 < ajray> oh the vim commands.  I thought they were plugins >.>
19:52 < KirkMcDonald> heh
19:52 < ajray> aiju: like tools to search around a codebase quickly
19:52 < aiju> i use grep
19:52 < KirkMcDonald> grep '\bfoo\b' is also useful.  :-)
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19:52 < ajray> if you hop in a huge project (e.g.  the linux kernel) you
gotta be able to find things quickly
19:52 < aiju> yeah
19:52 < aiju> grep
19:53 < ajray> i wonder if anyone has tried to port ctags/cscope to go
19:53 < KBme> ctags works with go iirc
19:53 < dforsyth_> isnt there a gotags?
19:53 < KBme> ajray: look in $GOROOT/misc, you'll find some interesting
stuff there
19:53 < KirkMcDonald> And for Python, I've got a script that uses the Python
tokenizer to do really exacting (if somewhat slow) searches.
19:54 < aiju> KirkMcDonald: really, why would you do that
19:54 < ajray> apparently theres a lot more in there since i last played
with go
19:54 < aiju> grep 'def func'
19:54 < aiju> why are people afraid of simple tools which do the job well?
19:54 < jumzi> ALL THAT TYPING!?
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19:54 < ajray> aiju: they work well until projects get supermassive
19:54 < aiju> "supermassive"?  wtf?
19:54 < KirkMcDonald> aiju: grep works 99% of the time.
19:55 < ajray> like > 5M sloc codebases
19:55 < KirkMcDonald> aiju: But there's an occasional case where I want to
look for an identifier which is also a word commonly used in comments.
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19:55 < jumzi> ajray: 5M sloc = rethink your programming
19:55 < ajray> or an operating system
19:55 < KirkMcDonald> aiju: Using the tokenizer permits me to match only the
instances of the identifier.
19:55 < aiju> ajray: i've grepped all of Plan 9
19:55 < ajray> aiju: <3 plan 9 so much
19:56 < jumzi> But it's true, if you have to work in the linux kernel and
you have NO IDEA how the files are sorted
19:56 < jumzi> then grep might be hard to work with to begin with
19:56 < KirkMcDonald> aiju: Basically, I use grep by default, and if it
happens to return something that is a mess, this other tool might narrow it down.
19:56 < jumzi> But really, most often it should be logical enough
19:57 < aiju> i'd really rather see a tool which actually helps with the
parts i spend most time with: thinking and debugging
19:57 < ajray> cscope/ctags create a nice database of where everything is,
so its search time is like log(n) vs (n) for grep
19:58 < jumzi> I rather see a sophisticated gc
19:58 < ajray> aiju++
19:59 < ajray> back to IRC fun
20:00 < ajray> (ive been using grep and its been successful, i just miss the
'jump to definition' ctags supplies)
20:00 < ajray> though it looks like gotags does that
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20:07 < plexdev> http://is.gd/sRaDad by [Russ Cox] in 10 subdirs of go/ --
runtime: simpler heap map, memory allocation
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21:49 < pharris> Unary ^ on an untyped value results in a signed value.
This surprises me.  What is the reason for that?
21:49 < KirkMcDonald> Is it an untyped signed value?
21:49 < pharris> Aside from most other ops returning untyped values, I
usually think of bitwise operations as unsigned.
21:50 < pharris> Seems to be, yes.
21:51 < KirkMcDonald> More generally, how would you expect an inversion to
affect an untyped value?
21:51 < pharris> All bits set.
21:51 < KirkMcDonald> pharris: How many bits?
21:51 < pharris> All of them.
21:51 < KirkMcDonald> pharris: And what value would that be?
21:51 < pharris> As in, "var foo uint64; foo = ^0".
21:52 < pharris> In C, it's spelt "~0ull", but C doesn't have unsized
values.
21:52 < aiju> pharris: yes, that's an annoying thing
21:52 < aiju> i define constants max32 and max64 and xor them
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21:53 < pharris> -1 is the same length as ^0 for signed values, but 1
<< 64 − 1 is a lot longer.
21:53 < pharris> (And breaks if you ever add a larger type)
21:53 < aiju> "a larger type"?
21:53 < aiju> constants are infinite precision
21:53 < pharris> uint128
21:53 < pharris> Right.  So ^0 should be an infinite precision "all bits
set", whereas "1 << 64 − 1" isn't.
21:54 < pharris> At least, to my way of thinking.
21:54 < aiju> yeah, but an infinite precision "all bits set" is -1
21:55 < pharris> prog.go:4: constant -1 overflows uint64
21:55 < pharris> func foo() uint64 {
21:55 < pharris> return ^0
21:55 < pharris> }
21:55 < aiju> pharris: yeah
21:56 < aiju> and -1 is not a valid unsigned int
21:56 < pharris> Right.  So what's the infinite precision unsigned all bits
set?
21:56 < aiju> i have no clue
21:56 < pharris> Okay.  Thanks.
21:57 < aiju> just define a constant
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21:58 < pharris> I *am* trying to define a constant.
21:58 < aiju> const max64 uint64 = 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
21:58 < aiju> ugly, but does the job
21:58 < pharris> I can live with fixed sized constants.  It just seems odd
that Go forces the type to signed in this one corner case.
21:59 < aiju> yeah
22:00 < KirkMcDonald> An all-bits-set untyped constant would be a strange
beast.
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22:01 < pharris> KirkMcDonald: Aside from being assignable to an unsigned
variable, how would it differ from −1?
22:02 < KirkMcDonald> pharris: It would be positive, for one thing.
22:02 < aiju> if allbitsset > 0 { // fuck
22:02 < KirkMcDonald> Would it be greater than an untyped constant equal to
2**32-1?
22:03 < KirkMcDonald> Suddenly assigning it to a uint32 would change that
inequality, if that is so.
22:03 < aiju> it would overflow all variables
22:03 < KirkMcDonald> Could I subtract values from it, yielding an untyped
constant equal to all-bits-set-minus 10?
22:04 < pharris> if allbitsset > 0 { // Right, not comparable.  At all.
This makes sense to me now.
22:04 < aiju> pharris: ^uint64(0) is vali
22:04 < aiju> *valid
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22:04 < aiju> and yields what you want
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22:05 < pharris> "A compiler may implement numeric constants by choosing an
internal representation with at least twice as many bits as any machine type", so
I expected at least 128 bits set in an implementation with uint64 present.
22:05 < pharris> But I can see now that using an untyped ^'d value in a
comparison would be surprising.  Thanks.
22:06 < pharris> (Quote was from
http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Constants )
22:06 < aiju> yeah, we know the spec by heart :P
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22:07 < pharris> So to answer KirkMcDonald - Yes, I expected that you can
subtract 10 from 2**128 without any trouble.
22:09 < pharris> (err, 2**129-1)
22:09 < aiju> i think the problem would be mainly assignment
22:09 < aiju> an infinite number of 1s overflows all types
22:10 < pharris> Indeed.
22:10 < pharris> I think my problem is that I'm too used to languages which
ignore overflow.
22:11 < aiju> he
22:11 < aiju> *heh
22:11 < aiju> having 64 bit constants is real fun in C
22:11 < aiju> putting LL after all constants is obnoxious
22:12 < pharris> LL doesn't guarantee 64-bitness.  You need to #include
<stdint.h> and use __UINT64_C(x).  And pray your target audience has a
functional C99.
22:12 < aiju> pharris: i'm talking about programming C here
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22:13 < aiju> not fapping to standards :P
22:13 < pharris> And, yes, it's far more obnoxious in C than Go.
22:13 < aiju> the standard mess in C is truly terrible
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22:14 < pharris> aiju: Not really.  The biggest problem with C99 is that MS
still doesn't even try to implement it.
22:14 < aiju> i'm not talking about standards not being implemented
22:14 < aiju> i'm talking about standards sucking heavily
22:14 < pharris> (Pre-C99, you're right.  There wasn't a standard 64-bit
type)
22:15 < aiju> stdint.h is a good example
22:16 < pharris> aiju: No argument here.
22:16 < aiju> the C type system worked well on the PDP-11
22:18 < aiju> char (byte) and int (word)
22:18 < aiju> but beyond that it sucks
22:20 < pharris> aiju: Is C's "char" signed or unsigned?  (Correct answer:
The C standard sucks).
22:20 < aiju> yeah i know :P
22:21 < aiju> i don't mind the idea of leaving things unspecified too much
22:21 < aiju> (in the end you end up forcing a specific endianness lol)
22:21 < aiju> but the C standard clearly overdoes it
22:22 < aiju> although … pushing Big Endian back is always good
22:22 < aiju> one thing Intel *did* right
22:23 < aiju> judging from the rest of x86 i'd expect a mixed endian
depending on the register size :P
22:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/6tUZFk by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ --
runtime: select bug
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22:59 < Xenith> Anyone have issues compiling the 2011-01-20 release on OS X?
It hangs during while testing net.a
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23:00 < decaf> Xenith: probably it's dialgoogle_test
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23:01 < decaf> I don't have access to a few google ips, whatever reason
23:01 < schutzstaffel> hello people
23:01 < Xenith> Ah. Will it eventually time out?
23:02 < decaf> Xenith: that's what happened here
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23:05 <+iant> decaf: test is slightly broken, set DISABLE_NET_TESTS in the
environment when building the release
23:06 < decaf> thanks, now I can see if other tests working
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23:24 < Xenith> Awesome, thanks.  All updated now.
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23:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/AKTHkI by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/src/pkg/time/ -- time: Support Solaris zoneinfo directory.
--- Log closed Sat Jan 29 00:00:05 2011