--- Log opened Sun Feb 13 00:00:05 2011
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00:08 < erus`> can i cast from interface back to struct?
00:10 < cenuij> if there is no obvious way, there is always reflection.
00:10 < erus`> might aswel bodge a new interface in
00:12 < cenuij> what you are descirbing is a bodge anyway, why describe it
as a bodge?
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01:43 < erus`> How do i get stdin?
01:48 < erus`> never mind
01:48 < erus`> Hello world works!
01:48 < erus`> its 2 am in the morning and i can sleep happy
01:51 < cenuij>
ikkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
01:51 < cenuij>
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
01:51 < cenuij>
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
01:51 < cenuij>
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
01:51 < cenuij>
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
01:51 < cenuij>
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
01:51 < cenuij>
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkko
01:52 < erus`> ?
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02:02 < erus`> https://github.com/tm1rbrt/tomlang check out hello world :)
02:08 < erus`> skelterjohn: you have to try it
02:08 < erus`> it took me HOURS
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02:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/NHMQkW by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- code.html:
update to reflect that package names need not be unique
02:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/dSLCqq by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: allow Decode(nil) and have it just discard the next value.
02:12 < exch> esoteric playground languages are always fun :)
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02:16 < exch> erus`: now for a fibonacci generator!
02:17 < erus`> cant set variables yet :P
02:17 < erus`> no conditions either
02:17 < exch> aww :<
02:17 < erus`> only stdin and out
02:17 < erus`> of constants :P
02:17 < exch> https://github.com/jteeuwen/gvm/blob/master/testdata/fib.gvm
this is what it looks like in my own scripty thingy
02:18 < erus`> looks like asm
02:18 < exch> thats basically just VM opcodes with a tiny bit of syntax
sugar sprinkled ontop :p
02:19 < erus`> Your is built in go too?
02:19 < exch> yes
02:20 < exch> that one is pretty old already.  Think I have a somewhat
better version around somewhere, but it works
02:20 < exch> By no means meant for practical use.  I just like playing with
it
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02:27 < erus`> nice
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04:15 < EricStanL_> after install go i star having problems with my
keyboard, some keys are not responding well, do you know what i should do?
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04:33 < anticw_> iant: wrt to gccgo what -O level is used for the pkgs?
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07:18 < taruti> Has anyone got mkfiles for building go packages?
07:25 < vice_virtue> as in a Makefile?
07:28 < vice_virtue> taruti, because there's a youtube video on how to do
that.  Basically, you can grab one from the
$GOROOT/src/pkg/<somepackage>/Makefile and use that...  say from fmt.  You
will need to modify it slightly so that references in it are relative to $GOROOT
instead of the current directory, but that's cake
07:28 < taruti> vice_virtue: no, as in a mkfile for mk(1)
07:28 < vice_virtue> oh, my bad
07:30 < jumzi> Still it shouldn't be impossible to build a mkfile
referencing that Makefile
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08:06 < user> hey guys, I tried to have two files using 'package main' but
when I compile it complains that main is redeclared although I only have a main
func in one of the files?  surely you are allowed to group several files under the
same package?
08:07 < user> is there some linker option needed or something?
08:09 < Namegduf> If it's complaining there's a duplicate package, you're
compiling it incorrectly.
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08:14 < user> well, main.go (which uses 'package main') imports another file
test.go which also uses 'package.main', I compile '6g test.go' and then '6g
main.go' which then complains that 'main.go main redeclared in this block, and
points to the 'import' line as the previous declaration.
08:14 < user> can't 'package main' be used across several files?
08:18 < Namegduf> Yes, it can.
08:18 < adu> user: that is a very interesting question
08:18 < Namegduf> You are compiling it incorrectly.
08:19 < Namegduf> You don't "import main" in main.
08:19 < Namegduf> And you need to build the whole package at once.
08:19 < Namegduf> 6g test.go main.go
08:19 < user> aha!
08:21 < user> works perfectly, you the man Namegduf!
08:22 < adu> heh
08:22 < adu> Namegduf: how are you today?
08:22 < Namegduf> Okay.
08:23 < adu> I'm thinking of making another blog post about Go
08:25 < adu> also, I gave up on gccgo again
08:26 < adu> it's way too hard to compile
08:41 < vice_virtue> adu, where's your blog?
08:43 < adu> straymindcough.blogspot.com
08:45 < adu> vice_virtue: nice nick
08:45 < vice_virtue> oh, I read your golang proposals post a while ago, good
work on that
08:45 < vice_virtue> thanks, adg
08:45 < vice_virtue> adu
08:45 < adu> vice_virtue: my next post will be on a hypothetical Go--
language
08:46 < vice_virtue> Similar to spj's c--?
08:46 < adu> 4 missing features 2 extra features
08:46 < adu> vice_virtue: no, c-- is actually a completely different
language than C
08:46 < vice_virtue> oh, whereas go-- would be similar to go...  with
features removed and added?
08:47 < adu> (Go--) + channels + interfaces + threads = Go
08:47 < adu> basically
08:47 < aiju> so a useless version of Go?
08:48 < adu> no, a runtimeless version of Go
08:48 < Namegduf> It's a testement to how orthagonal Go is that you can
fairly cleanly say you're removing those things
08:48 < aiju> you need to remove more for that
08:48 < aiju> slices and strings also depend on the runtime
08:48 < Namegduf> And the resulting specification is fairly clear.
08:49 < adu> for example channels includes "chan" types, and "select"
statement, close() and closed() builtin-functions, and (<-) syntax
08:49 < Namegduf> *testament.
08:50 < bartbes> adu: so what are the extra features?
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08:50 < adu> vice_virtue: the 2 extra features are the "any" type (to mimic
interface{}), and the "free" builtin-function
08:50 < vice_virtue> when you say threads, you mean goroutines?
08:50 < vice_virtue> Is Any defined anywhere?
08:51 < Namegduf> Ah, you're also removing the GC?
08:51 < vice_virtue> I had some sneaking suspicion one of the packages
defined an Any type
08:51 < adu> vice_virtue: when I say threads I mean the "go" statement
08:51 < vice_virtue> I'd love generics
08:51 < aiju> haahhahahhaah C--
08:51 < Namegduf> vice_virtue: There was discussion of aliasing interface{}
-> ANy
08:51 < Namegduf> *Any
08:51 < jumzi> i'm confused
08:51 < vice_virtue> and array comprehensions of somesort
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08:51 < adu> vice_virtue: generics would not be part of Go--, they would be
part of Go++
08:51 < vice_virtue> :)
08:51 < adu> or Go--++
08:51 < Namegduf> Go++ should also have classes and OO
08:51 < aiju> C-- is crazy
08:51 < Namegduf> And a preprocessor
08:52 < aiju> it lacks variadic arguments, but has a garbage collector?
what the fuck?
08:52 < vice_virtue> C-- is an intermediate language, not designed for
writing code
08:52 < jumzi> noway
08:52 < adu> I don't like the idea of preprocessors, but I do like the idea
of conditional compilation
08:52 < vice_virtue> just designed as a compiler backend
08:52 < vice_virtue> of sorts
08:52 < jumzi> anyhow doesn't go-- seem abit meh?  whats the point :P
08:53 < Namegduf> adu: You have conditional complication by putting them in
separate files and doing it in your build system.
08:53 < aiju> jumzi: "i don't want to run C because C has meezles"
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08:54 < adu> jumzi: the point is the evangelism, continued existence, and
promotion of Go as a mainstream language, as a platform, as a tool, and as an
ecosystem
08:54 < aiju> yes, just what i said
08:54 < adu> Namegduf: in that case I have no need for preprocessors
08:55 < Namegduf> Right.
08:55 < adu> aiju: that is totally not what you said
08:55 < jumzi> meh, c has its place and go does...  ppl seem to hear one
word and wants to apply that word to everything
08:56 < jumzi> but i suppose c with an updated syntax would be nice
08:56 < nsf> and module system
08:56 < adu> jumzi: Go-- is still so much more than C, it would have better
literal syntax, and lambdas, for example
08:57 < adu> and methods
08:57 < Namegduf> Why no interfaces, though?
08:57 < aiju> how do you get closures without a runtime?
08:57 < vice_virtue> I like goroutines and channels
08:57 < Namegduf> Depends what you mean by "a runtime"
08:58 < adu> but each method wouldn't have to be encoded in itables or
anything, methods could just be rewritten to mangled function names
08:58 < vsmatck> Closures can be figured out at compile time.
08:58 < aiju> methods without interfaces are completely pointless
08:58 < Namegduf> You can generate one with a simple sequence of
instructions
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08:58 < adu> aiju: so do you think they don't belong in go--?
08:58 < vice_virtue> not completely pointless, aiju
08:59 < vice_virtue> They're more aesthetically pleasing than what C has
08:59 < aiju> they are just syntactic sugar
08:59 < adu> I think methods are a beautiful way of doing template-ish
things, like Add() with different types
08:59 < taruti> How does one dump the assembly out of a .8 file?
08:59 < aiju> taruti: probably not at all
08:59 < adu> taruti: I don't know if its possible
09:00 < aiju> you can use 8[gc] -S
09:00 < taruti> 8a is doing something weird...
09:00 < aiju> you can link it and use objdump :P
09:01 < adu> anyways, one of the things I think is crucial for Go's future
is to have multiple compilers, and I'd like a compiler (other than gccgo) that
allows you to use normal nm/objdump etc, and doesn't require weird ABI
marshalling, etc.
09:02 < aiju> i'd like to see a compiler in Go
09:02 < adu> aiju: I thought 6g was written in go
09:02 < aiju> no, it is not
09:02 < adu> ah C
09:02 < jumzi> maybe go--?
09:03 < Aram> it's a first generation compiler, it couldn't have been
written in go.
09:03 < adu> sure, I can see writing tons of stuff in Go--
09:03 < jumzi> not C?
09:03 < Aram> what's Go--?
09:03 < Aram> sounds bad :-).
09:03 < adu> Aram: a non-existant hypothetical language which I'm writing a
compiler for
09:04 < aiju> Aram: Go without all the features which make it really
different from C
09:04 < vice_virtue> Adu, why do you think a reduced-function version of go
is good for its future?
09:04 < aiju> but C is sooo 1970s
09:04 < adu> aiju: that's a terrible characterization
09:04 < jumzi> adu: i agree...  he could have phrased allot nicer
09:04 < adu> Go-- has tons of stuff that C doesn't, like maps, dynamic
arrays, lambdas
09:04 < Aram> and what does it lack?
09:05 < vice_virtue> C9X has composite literal initialisers
09:05 < Aram> and...  why?
09:05 < adu> Aram: interfaces, channels, and threads
09:05 < vice_virtue> which is pretty cool
09:05 < adu> vice_virtue: right, but that's for structs, which are different
from maps
09:05 < Aram> what would be the purpose of a lesser go?
09:05 < adu> Aram: a smaller runtime
09:06 < aiju> the only point i see for this would be embedded /
microcontroller programming
09:06 < adu> perhaps for embedded applications, or, so that you can write Go
runtimes in it
09:06 < vice_virtue> adu, there's the 'tiny' runtime
09:06 < vice_virtue> or was?
09:06 < aiju> vice_virtue: no, there is not
09:06 < aiju> and tiny is not tiny
09:06 < vice_virtue> I think it was abandoned
09:06 < adu> lol
09:06 < aiju> "tiny" refers to the OS
09:06 < aiju> the runtime is just as large
09:07 < jumzi> i would be impressed if they managed to make a smaller
runtime
09:07 < aiju> Go seems unsuitable for embedded things for me -- it mallocs
all over the place
09:07 < jumzi> without chopping features
09:07 < adu> aiju: which is why Go-- will have a built-in called free()
09:07 < Aram> people write Java on their embedded CPUs and you are concerned
with the size of the Go runtime?  :-).
09:07 < aiju> oh yeah embedded has changed :P
09:08 < aiju> people run Linux on embedded, i know
09:08 * aiju was more thinking of 128 B microcontrollers
09:08 * jumzi runs around scared and hurt
09:09 < Aram> well, even C for 128B microcontrollers sucks (not real C), I
would imagine go in such a smal space would suck even more.
09:09 < Aram> s/smal/small/
09:09 < aiju> Aram: it's doable
09:09 * vice_virtue is generating 20 virtual machines...  this will take a while
09:09 < aiju> with C you have much more low level control than with Go
09:09 < adu> aiju: what?  how so?
09:10 < aiju> a := foo[:] // this calls new
09:10 < Aram> another reason why go on a 128B microcontroller doesn't seem
that useful.
09:10 < aiju> it's impossible to sensibly write interrupt handlers in Go
09:11 < adu> aiju: why?
09:11 < aiju> you'll never know what it'll do
09:11 < aiju> Go inserts all kind of calls to potentially evil functions
09:12 < aiju> one does not simply new() in an interrupt handler
09:12 < Aram> well, that's an artifact of the current implementation.
09:12 < Aram> I'm sure you could have interrupt handlers in go if you'd
modify the runtime to allow for this.
09:12 < jessta_> that's an artifact of what Go is targetting
09:12 < aiju> the changes would not be small
09:13 < jessta_> they aren't targeting embeded platforms
09:13 < aiju> jessta_: or OSdev
09:13 < aiju> gofy experiences P:
09:13 < aiju> *:P
09:13 < adu> or shared libraryies
09:13 < aiju> shared libraries are evil
09:13 < adu> aiju: I agree, but what's your reason
09:13 < jessta_> aiju: OSdev is fine
09:14 < aiju> things get fucked up often
09:14 < aiju> try running two year old binaries
09:14 < adu> aiju: could you be more specific?
09:14 < Aram> there's much more to OSdev than interrupt handling, I think go
makes a very good candidate for a language to write an OS in, even though you
can't at this point (or in the likely future) to write interrupt handlers in it.
09:14 < adu> aiju: I did that yesterday
09:14 < adu> aiju: they worked fine for me
09:14 < adu> aiju: could you be more specific?
09:15 < aiju> adu: you've been lucky
09:15 < adu> I actually ran 15 year-old binaries
09:15 < aiju> symbol 'GLIBCXX_n.nn' in library /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 not
found
09:15 < aiju> i just had that recently with commercial software
09:15 < aiju> and couldn't fix it
09:15 < adu> well that's C++, C++ gets fucked up all the time
09:16 < adu> C++ is the most unmaintainable language
09:16 < adu> Go is the most maintainable language
09:16 < aiju> haha yes, but that's not C++ specific
09:16 < adu> which I think is why Go-- would be a big success
09:17 < aiju> i'm giving up on gofy, the language is currently too instable
:/
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09:18 < adu> oh, gofy is an OS
09:18 < aiju> writing an OS requires maintaining two forks of the runtime,
an insane task currently
09:18 < adu> aiju: did you write gofy?
09:18 < aiju> yeah
09:18 < aiju> it's not much currently
09:18 < adu> have you considered writing part of it in go--?
09:18 < aiju> i wrote some userspace stuff, syscalls, buffered block I/O,
IDE driver
09:19 < aiju> but now everything broke *grml*
09:19 < adu> aiju: that's what unit testing is for
09:19 < aiju> "unit testing"?
09:20 < adu> yes, so that you know things are borked
09:20 < aiju> the really annoying problems are (1) massive compiler/runtime
changes every few weeks (2) linker bugs
09:20 < adu> aiju: oh, like the complex/cmplx change
09:20 < aiju> i need my own tailored version of the runtime
09:21 < aiju> for the kernel
09:21 < adu> I imagine so
09:21 < aiju> it's simply too annoying to port all changes they make
09:22 < adu> aiju: have you considered using diff/patch?
09:22 < aiju> and I stumble across linker/compiler bugs too often, those
really stress my patience
09:22 < aiju> adu: i don't think whether this would really help
09:25 < adu> vice_virtue: ABI compatibility, to finally answer your question
09:26 < vice_virtue> I forgot the question, you want to make go-- so it has
ABI compatibility with C?
09:27 < adu> vice_virtue: yes
09:28 < adu> I have a love-hate relationship with the GoABI
09:29 < adu> it solves some very difficult problems in a really simple way,
but it creates so many additional problems in terms of ease-of-use and developer
productivity
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09:29 < adu> maybe I should blog about the GoABI instead
09:29 < adu> I haven't found any nice overviews of it
09:30 < vice_virtue> adu, that would be nice
09:31 < adu> blogging about the current ABI instead of some future language?
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09:31 < vice_virtue> well both would be interesting
09:31 < vice_virtue> but I was referring to the abi
09:31 < adu> but I like the future, it's always seems to much better
09:31 < fenicks> hello
09:32 < adu> s/to/so/
09:32 < vice_virtue> :)
09:32 < vice_virtue> Do you think the future is Go-- rather than Go?
09:32 < zozoR> http://pastebin.com/r8QbTvH1 <-- ERROR: 'tm' undeclared
(first use in this function)
09:33 < zozoR> : |
09:33 < aiju> pastebin.com is insulting us
09:33 < vice_virtue> You've got a capitalisation error
09:33 < zozoR> where :D
09:33 < vice_virtue> on line 38, right?
09:33 < adu> vice_virtue: no I think the future is Go, but C is going to be
with us for several centuries, and converting between the two ABIs for 100 years
worth of software makes my eyes explode
09:33 < zozoR> nope
09:33 < vice_virtue> oh wait, perhaps not
09:34 < zozoR> i keep getting weird errors ..
09:34 < zozoR> if i remove the type tm C.tm it works
09:34 < vice_virtue> which line's the error on?
09:34 < zozoR> it doesnt say
09:34 < vice_virtue> which method?
09:34 < zozoR> doesnt say
09:34 < vice_virtue> I think
09:35 < vice_virtue> on line 39, you should replace = with :=
09:35 < vice_virtue> or alternatively replace (*Tm) with (out *Tm) on line
38
09:35 < zozoR> heh true that
09:35 < zozoR> doesnt help though
09:35 < vice_virtue> otherwise out is undeclared
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09:36 < zozoR> if i replace C.tm with _Ctype_struct_tm or something it works
(half)
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09:36 < adu> vice_virtue: I also think that C2020 might actually require
braces...  :)
09:36 < zozoR> then i get errors like cant use out type(*tm) as type
*_Ctype_struct_tm (even though i defined tm to be that!) :o
09:36 < aiju> C2020?
09:37 < adu> as opposed to C99
09:37 < vice_virtue> C requires braces in some places
09:37 < vice_virtue> C99
09:37 < adu> like on if/for/while
09:37 < aiju> tbh i dislike the requiring braces thing in Go
09:37 < vice_virtue> aiju, indentation instead?
09:37 < aiju> haha no
09:38 < aiju> if err != nil {
09:38 < vice_virtue> how, then?
09:38 < aiju> goto error
09:38 < aiju> }
09:38 < aiju> just looks too "big" for me
09:38 < zozoR> maybe i should update my go : |
09:38 < adu> aiju: it sounds like you don't work on a team
09:38 < vice_virtue> I guess, but the alternative is a common source of
errors
09:39 < taruti> How does one align something on a 16-byte boundary in 8a?
09:39 < aiju> taruti: probably not at all
09:39 < adu> aiju: teams generally include less-than-smart people who think
C is Python, and add something above your goto, thinking it's part of the block,
and then it would error out all the time, until someone figured out the braces
were missing
09:40 < aiju> yeah, the retarded developer assumption, duh
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09:40 < adu> not retarded, less-than-smart
09:40 < vice_virtue> What adu described happened to me on the last large
project i worked on
09:40 < vice_virtue> frustrating
09:41 < zozoR> lol
09:41 < aiju> it's just that if(err != nil) goto error; doesn't look as
annoying
09:41 < zozoR> C# syntax is worse, if something goto code, is 4 lines :D
09:41 < aiju> C# has goto?
09:41 < zozoR> dunno
09:41 < aiju> i'd expect it to be STRUCTURED
09:42 < Aram> it does.
09:42 * aiju is so infinitely annoyed by goto haters
09:42 < zozoR> why that?
09:43 < aiju> it gets worst when i have to use a language designed by such
people
09:43 < adu> aiju: what language?
09:43 < aiju> e.g.  Javascript
09:44 < adu> Javascript totally has gotos, and continuations, you just have
to work for them
09:44 < bartbes> you just need to label properly
09:44 < bartbes> GOTO HELL
09:44 < aiju> yeah, there are labels and continue and break
09:46 < aiju> goto haters using break/continue are such hypocrites
09:46 < Aram> haha, yeah.
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09:53 < vice_virtue> I like that go has break <label>
09:53 < aiju> it has?
09:53 < Aram> how is that different from goto?
09:53 < aiju> oh neat
09:54 < aiju> hm i don't really know whether this is really better than goto
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09:56 < zozoR> why is _Ctype_struct_tm working when C.tm isnt >.<
09:56 < zozoR> makes no sense
09:59 < aiju> argh
09:59 < aiju> is there some way to traverse a string with the ability to go
back?
10:03 < zozoR> http://pastebin.com/6buRuuqL <-- cant cgo this file : |
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10:04 < zozoR> http://pastebin.com/4JPGv9i2 here with the output from cgo
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10:17 < Namegduf> Aram: It does a lot less.
10:17 < Namegduf> So it's different from goto like "for {}" is different to
goto.
10:18 < Namegduf> This may result in it being clearer what is occurring and
being easy to read.
10:18 < Namegduf> *easier
10:24 < adu> who was it who described cgo as an "ugly hack"?
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10:26 < zozoR> an ugly hack that cant use time.h
10:26 < zozoR> -_-
10:32 < aiju> for really needs initializers
10:32 < aiju> run once per iteration
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10:57 < user> gotta say, having played around with this language over the
weekend I'm beginning to love it, only thing I'm not so impressed with is the
performance of the generated code from 6g, anyone know what this performance
increase I can expect if compiling with gccgo?
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11:02 < adu> user: if you can get gccgo working
11:02 < adu> I've been trying to compile gccgo for about 6 months now
11:03 < nsf> 6g generates pretty much high quality code
11:03 < nsf> afaik
11:03 < user> adu: ok, I thought it was included in gcc4.6, no
'--enable-languages=go' and compile away?
11:03 < nsf> programming languages benchmark games shows 2x slowdown from C
in average
11:04 < nsf> which is awesome
11:04 < nsf> it's even faster than Java in average :)
11:04 < nsf>
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php
11:04 < nsf> :)
11:05 < nsf> user: it's not enabled by default
11:05 < adu> well, at first I tried compiling it on macosx, which is silly
in retrospect since the main gcc branch doesn't support macosx, or mach-o
11:05 < user> nsf: ok, I converted some of my c++ code to go and benchmarked
it (nothing fancy, just loops calling functions doing some simple comparisons) and
it was like 3 times slower than the c++ version
11:05 < adu> secondly, I tried compiling it on ubuntu, and that didn't work
either
11:05 < user> nsf: but chances are I did something stupid, I'm new to go
11:05 < nsf> user: most likely it's due to lack of inlining on Go side
11:06 < user> nsf: ok, 6g is obviously very new and still in heavy
development
11:06 < nsf> but that very important optimization will be added in future
I'm sure
11:06 < user> adu: ok, I'll probably give it a try myself since I've been
bitten by the Go bug :)
11:06 < nsf> what I'm trying to say is that if you need that much of
performance, maybe Go is a wrong language for you
11:06 < nsf> you can still write portions of your app in C or C++
11:07 < nsf> and the biggest part in Go
11:07 < user> nsf: Well I don't 'need' that much performance but apart from
the garbage collection there's really no overhead that would make it perform worse
than c,c++ as I see it?
11:07 < nsf> for example, sorting an array of floats, I'm sure C++ will
generate a much better code even in comparison with gccgo
11:07 < Namegduf> nsf: Why?
11:07 < user> nsf: why?
11:08 < user> lol
11:08 < aiju> there is bounds checking overhead
11:08 < nsf> because in Go there is no easy way to write a fast and generic
sort
11:08 < aiju> not just for arrays, also for the stacks
11:08 < nsf> sort.Interface isn't even funny
11:08 < nsf> it will be slower than qsort
11:09 < aiju> wtf
11:09 < nsf> qsort dereferences and calls one function pointer,
sort.Interface does that for two virtual methods (two function pointers)
11:10 < nsf> and calling convention in Go (in 6g) has more overhead than in
C
11:10 < aiju> why is type foo interface{} an invalid receiver type?
11:10 < Namegduf> You could use a non-generic algorithm.
11:10 < nsf> Namegduf: go and write one
11:10 < Namegduf> nsf: That is what I would do if sorting an array of floats
11:10 < nsf> in C++ it's just one line
11:10 < Namegduf> And I needed it to be fast.
11:10 < nsf> std::sort(v, v+size);
11:10 < Namegduf> No, in C++ you can use an existing one.
11:10 < nsf> exactly
11:10 < nsf> in Go you can't
11:11 < Namegduf> No, you can't.
11:11 < Namegduf> That doesn't say anything about achievable runtime speed,
though
11:11 < aiju> i bet std::sort has a float special case
11:11 < nsf> well, good luck with that
11:11 < nsf> my considerations are purely practical
11:12 < Namegduf> So are mine.
11:12 < nsf> Go isn't about performance and never will be
11:12 < Namegduf> Not above all other concerns.
11:12 < Namegduf> But then, neither is C++.
11:12 < nsf> C and C++ are
11:12 < nsf> :)
11:12 < Namegduf> Not above all other concerns.
11:13 < Namegduf> The generics thing is particularly bad as an example,
because the obvious alternative is to use buildsystem instantiation or just write
out the algorithm repeatedly
11:13 < Namegduf> Using an interface IS slower at runtime, but it is not
what you would do in cases where you cared about performance on that level.
11:14 < Namegduf> You would do the template instantiation yourself.
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11:15 < adu> nsf: but when will you be able to write parts in Go and the
biggest part in C?
11:15 < Namegduf> Go strikes a different compromise, but it hardly doesn't
care about performance at all, and the practical difference you should expect
shouldn't need to be that huge.
11:15 < aiju> C++ is about sucking as much as possible
11:15 < adu> C++ is the most unmaintainable language
11:15 < aiju> i take the effort of writing a specialized function for
sorting floats over C++ insanity any day
11:16 < jumzi> but, but
11:17 < adu> but what?
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11:27 < adu> http://pastebin.com/8Ng00gyD
11:32 < mpl> I've just pulled and updated and it seems os doesn't contain
ForkExec anymore.  however the online doc still has it.  where's the problem?
11:33 < mpl> also, I can't find that change announced in the releases
changes...
11:34 < Namegduf> There's a new name.
11:34 < user> adu: I'm building gcc 4.6 (snapshot 20110105) with
--enable-languages=c,c++,go We'll see what happens (crossing fingers ;D )
11:35 < adu> user: I'm building svn://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/branches/gccg
11:35 < aiju> gcc >= 4.5 is so incredibly slow
11:35 < adu> whatever version that is
11:35 < adu> aiju: I don't care about speed, I care about ABI compatibility
11:36 < user> adu: mine aborted, go was not a supported language in this
snapshot
11:36 < Aram> s/>= 4.5//
11:36 < adu> user: ah, well, I've heard that if you follow the instructions
at http://golang.org/doc/gccgo_install.html and dot your i's, then it works
11:37 < user> adu: ah, so it hasn't been merged with the main gcc 4.6 branch
yet then
11:37 < adu> I don't think so
11:38 < user> adu: well, I'm lazy by nature so chances are I'll wait for a
gcc 4.6 rc instead of trying to build gccgo separately ;)
11:38 < aiju> Aram: it got especially slow then
11:43 < mpl> ah I see, os.StartProcess.  seems like the online doc is just
outdated.
11:43 < Namegduf> Yeah.
11:43 < Namegduf> It came up on the mailing list but I forgot the new name.
11:44 < mpl> found it on goland-dev.  gmail searches ftw ;)
11:49 < adu> user: you mean you'd rather wait forever, rather than try it
out right now?
11:51 < user> adu: heh!  well gcc 4.6 is in regression fix stage now so
hopefully there will be some rc's soon (yeah, i'm an optimist!)
11:52 < adu> oh it's probably not going to be in gcc 4.6, I'd guess
something more like 5.2
11:52 < user> adu: heh, well officially it's in 4.6, Ian Lance Taylor will
be pretty sad if it's not I gather
11:54 < user> adu: still, I'm interested in seeing what performance I can
get out of Go using the gcc backend compared to 6g, so chances are I'll try to
compile the gccgo separate branch
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11:56 < user> adu: http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.6/changes.html Go is listed as
supported language, although not enabled by default
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11:58 < Aram> can gccgo use more than one thread?
12:01 < user> Aram: if not it would be pretty insane since concurrency is
sorta an important aspect of Go
12:02 < Aram> concurrent programming, not multi-threaded execution.  I
though the usual compiler uses only one thread unless instructed otherwise.
12:03 < user> Aram: ahh ok, now I follow you, I don't know the answer though
12:03 < aiju> with concurrent programming, only one goroutine is active most
of the time
12:03 < aiju> it's more like coroutines
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12:07 < user> Here's a blog post by Ian Lance Taylor (guy who writes gccgo)
which describes some of the current shortcomings of gccgo
http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/448
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12:18 < aiju> shortcoming #1: it sucks terribly
12:18 < aiju> one of the reason i write Go is that i don't have to cope with
gcc
12:18 < aiju> >Have you folks considered including a
language-version-sensitive conditional in the language?
12:18 * aiju facepalms
12:19 < zozoR> http://pastebin.com/4JPGv9i2 <-- any new joiners who
understands why cgo doesnt like this :D
12:20 < nsf> because there is no such type as tm in time.h
12:20 < nsf> it's "struct tm"
12:20 < nsf> C.struct_tm should work
12:21 < zozoR> oh : |
12:21 < aiju> time.h has a lot of pre-ANSI cruft in it
12:21 < zozoR> so structs have got to have struct_ before the actual struct?
12:21 < nsf> it's not pre ANSI it's very much C99
12:21 < nsf> but some people prefer to do stupid typedefs
12:21 < aiju> what's wrong with typedefs?
12:22 < adu> nothing
12:22 < nsf> typedefs add garbage to the global namespace
12:22 < zozoR> what i dont get in time.h is the need typedef unsigned time_t
: |
12:22 < aiju> and who cares?
12:22 < nsf> I do
12:22 < aiju> namespace pollution is the most ridiculous argument ever
12:22 < adu> aiju: no, it's not
12:23 < aiju> explain me what's wrong with "namespace pollution"
12:23 < adu> aiju: it is a crucial if you're talking about JavaScript, for
example
12:23 < adu> aiju: it can make webpages crash
12:23 < aiju> i'm talking about C
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12:27 < aiju> so, what's wrong with it?
12:28 < zozoR> it pollutes?
12:28 < aiju> am i going to get sued by EPA?
12:28 < zozoR> isnt wrong a part of the definition of pollution?
12:29 < zozoR> and looking through shitloads of stuff in your code
completion is annoying :9
12:29 < aiju> jewish structs all over your aryan types?
12:29 < zozoR> perhabs
12:30 < Aram> code completion?!?
12:30 < Aram> what a crazy idea.
12:31 < Aram> the editor must be pure and aryan.
12:31 < aiju> some people just can't remember open
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12:35 < jumzi> code completion rocks
12:35 < jumzi> the first 6 minutes you learning to program
12:36 < zozoR> i find it weird that so many people dont like code completion
: |
12:36 < aiju> i find it weird that so many people like code completion : |
12:37 < zozoR> i mean it HELPS you, how can that be bad O.o
12:37 < Ina> For Go...  I don't need code completion.  I can imagine wanting
it with C# or Java or that kind of crap.
12:37 < Aram> wtf, usually people typedef a struct with the same name, they
don't add any name to the global namespace, how can this be namespace pollution.
12:37 < aiju> zozoR: the MS Office paper clip HELPS you
12:37 < aiju> how can it be bad
12:37 < Aram> even C++ guys figured it out and made struct optional.
12:37 < zozoR> hahaha
12:37 < zozoR> true that
12:38 < nsf> Aram: they've broken C even more
12:38 < zozoR> but the paper clip has never done any good
12:38 < nsf> in C struct tags are in a separate namespace
12:38 < nsf> in C++ it's all just a big mess
12:38 < aiju> the struct ghetto
12:40 < zozoR> type tm C.struct_tm--> cannot use out (type
*_Ctype_struct_tm) as type *tm in function argument
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12:40 < zozoR> why cant i do that now
12:40 < nsf> because in Go there are no implicit type conversions
12:40 < nsf> type Int int
12:40 < nsf> Int is not an alias for int
12:40 < nsf> it's a different type
12:40 < zozoR> ah right..
12:41 < zozoR> awesome, thanks :D
12:44 < aiju> Go should have different namespaces as well
12:44 < aiju> interface foo, struct foo, ...
12:44 < nsf> no
12:44 < aiju> namespace pollution!
12:44 < nsf> Go is not C :)
12:45 < nsf> Go has modules
12:45 < nsf> C doesn't
12:46 < nsf> btw, in early C there were no typedefs
12:46 < Aram> every name pollutes some namespace, we shouldn't use any
names.
12:46 < Aram> lambdas forever.
12:46 < aiju> in early C there was no unsigned
12:46 < Aram> in early C, auto was compulsory.
12:47 < aiju> Aram: really?
12:47 < aiju> how early?
12:47 < aiju> and in soviet C, namespace pollutes you
12:47 < tobier> we are doing soviet jokes now?
12:47 < zozoR> xD
12:48 < jumzi> THIS IS IRC
12:48 < adu> lol
12:49 < aiju> auto was already unnecessary in V6 C
12:49 < aiju> but register all over the place!
12:50 * adu <3 Go modules
12:50 < Aram> yeah, optimizations in that era were done soviet style.
12:50 < Aram> which is very strabge considering those machines had a much
lower memory wall than current machines.
12:51 < aiju> Aram: i think it was factor 2
12:52 < aiju> i remember the indexed addressing mode (required for
addressing local variables and parameters) to be particularly expensive
12:53 -!- sauerbraten [~sauerbrat@p508CD077.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts
12:56 < Aram> well, now accessing local memory takes over 600 cycles.
thanks for the large L2/3 caches, heh.
12:56 < aiju> haha
12:56 < aiju> cycles are short now ;)
12:56 < aiju> INC on a register was 1.6 us on a PDP11/40
12:57 < aiju> INC n(r) however was 3 us
12:58 < aiju> double operands was even worse
12:59 < aiju> don't forget the existance of caches
13:00 < aiju> i suppose parameters are likely in the L1 cache
13:01 < Aram> don't most calling conventions push first 4 parameters on
registers?
13:01 < aiju> no
13:02 < aiju> register passing turned out to be inefficient afaik
13:02 < Aram> how come?
13:02 < aiju> more register saving necessary
13:02 < aiju> often unnecessary register saving
13:02 < Aram> on CISC I assume, RISCs usually have large register windows.
13:02 < aiju> on x86, that is
13:02 < Aram> yeah.
13:05 < Ina> How does go pass return values anyway?  Just curious on some of
the compiler's internals.
13:05 < aiju> Ina: pass-by-reference arguments
13:05 < Ina> Yeah, but does it put them into registers, or push them on the
stack, or what?
13:06 < aiju> all arguments are on the stack
13:06 < aiju> including return values
13:06 * Ina nods.  "Okay."
13:06 < nsf> aiju: afaik in 6g there is a registerizer
13:06 < nsf> 8g doesn't do that though
13:06 < aiju> nsf: not for parameters
13:06 < nsf> ah, ok
13:06 < nsf> didn't know that
13:06 < aiju> i think 8g has a registerizer as well
13:07 < aiju> after all, there are seven more or less general purpose
registers
13:07 < nsf> but for some reason 6g 2x faster than 8g
13:07 < nsf> I mean the code generated by it
13:08 < aiju> 8g code seems a bit stupid at times
13:08 < Aram> which one is the 64 bit oane again?
13:08 < aiju> Aram: 6g...
13:08 < aiju> the one with a 6 as in *6*4 :P
13:08 < Aram> right.
13:08 < aiju> and 8 as in x*8*6
13:09 < vice_virtue> 20 KVM machines, all baked and ready to go :)
13:10 < Aram> what do they run?
13:10 < Aram> or does KVM support only Linux?
13:10 < vice_virtue> It supports other guests
13:10 < vice_virtue> but they run ubuntu server
13:10 < vice_virtue> a trimmed-down version
13:10 * Aram didn't touch Linux for 6 or 7 years...
13:11 * jumzi wonders what aram is touching now then...
13:11 < vice_virtue> the "virtual" flavour of ubuntu server maverick - You
can create them using an app in newer ubuntus
13:12 < Aram> jumzi: OSX (home), SunOS (work, though I work for home), Plan9
(play).
13:12 < vice_virtue> How is plan9 treating you, Aram?
13:13 < Aram> very nice, I have a few VMs and use a ThinkPad with Plan9 as a
terminal.  I'd like to use it more, but lack of some crucial software makes it
hard...
13:14 < aiju> haha a function i just wrote is a huge gotofest
13:14 < Aram> I think drawterm is usually faster as a plan 9 terminal then a
real metal terminal, but you don't get the same feel of it as if you stand in
front of a machine IMHO :-).
13:14 < jumzi> also drawterm segfaults from time to time
13:15 < jumzi> (on openBSD)
13:15 < Aram> yeah, it crashes often enough even on OSX.
13:16 < Ina> I'm currently running Ubuntu, but I've been meaning to
experiment.
13:17 -!- tvw [~tv@e176009208.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240
seconds]
13:17 < jumzi> its sad plan9 ainz
13:18 < jumzi> ain't that friendly to newcomers*
13:19 < Aram> when windows users try a *nix variant they usually expect
something completely different, so they cope with it, but sadly when people try
Plan 9 they think of it as yet another UNIX variant, when in fact it is not.
13:19 < Aram> if you don't treat it as something new, you won't "get" it.
13:20 < Ina> OSX is based on NeXT, right?
13:20 < Aram> yeah, it's a direct NeXTstep evolution.
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13:21 < Ina> I heard a lot of the Cocoa API still has NS prefixes in it.
13:21 < aiju> OSX API are thoroughly ugly
13:21 < Aram> every function has NS in it :-).
13:22 < aiju> NS means "national socialism" in germany, feels appropriate
13:22 < Aram> Cocoa is almost a strict superset of OPENSTEP, generally, you
can directly compile old NeXT code on OSX.
13:22 < Aram> aiju: true that...
13:22 < Aram> in a way it's like Java.
13:22 < Aram> feels the same way.
13:23 < Aram> there was even a NeXT -> Java bridge.
13:23 < Ina> I know a guy who was working on a Java to ObjC compiler for
iPhone dev.
13:24 < Aram> NeXTstep I think was the first mainstream OS (besides Solaris)
to ship Java.
13:24 < Aram> and it did this until the latest release of Mac OS X.
13:25 < Ina> Wait, the latest release of OS X doesn't ship Java anymore?
13:25 < Aram> no.
13:25 < Aram> you need to get it from somewhere else.
13:25 < Aram> it was outdated and they didn't want to maintain the fork
anymore.
13:25 < Ina> That's both a boon and a curse to Java devs, since OSX's Java
was--- yes.
13:25 < aiju> OS X always felt like *the* Java platform for me
13:26 < Ina> Solaris is THE Java platform, isn't it?
13:26 < aiju> who uses Solaris?
13:26 < Ina> aiju, I don't know.
13:26 < aiju> i love it when code really should fail
13:26 < aiju> but doesn't fail
13:27 < Aram> Cocoa API has many flaws, but one think NeXT/Apple does right
is Interface Builder.  You can create *good* interfaces with it, and most
importantly, as opposed to other interface designers, *it doesn't generate code*.
13:27 < Ina> Does it generate anything, or just leave you to implement it
from scratch?
13:28 < Aram> it generates object directly in binary form.
13:28 < Aram> you can just use them in your code.
13:28 < Ina> Aja
13:28 < Ina> Aha *
13:28 < aiju> this feels more evil than generating code
13:29 < Ina> I'd rather see it generate XML or something similar,
personally.
13:29 < Aram> it seems at the first glance, but it really is not.
13:29 < aiju> XML is wrong
13:29 < Aram> the thing is, the XML/Code generated is opaque anyway.
13:29 < Aram> so what good does it do?
13:29 < Aram> s/is/would be/
13:30 < aiju> argh
13:30 < aiju> why does this compile
13:30 < aiju> it really shouldn't compile
13:30 < Ina> Does GNUstep include something like the interface builder?
13:30 < Aram> yeah.
13:30 < Aram> but it fucking sucks.
13:30 < Aram> like all of GNUstep.
13:30 < aiju> just like anything GNU
13:31 < Ina> I imagine.  :P
13:31 < Aram> GNUstep has 2 interface builder equivalents, because GNU can't
ever decide what to do.
13:31 < aiju> code like this really frightens me
13:32 < aiju> i have a type which doesn't satisfy an interface
13:32 < aiju> but i can assign it to it o.O
13:32 < Aram> one of them *should* directly understand what Interface
Builder produces (and viceversa), so projects weould be truly compatible between
macs and gnustep, but of course it shits itself all the time.
13:33 < Ina> This reminds me of trying to produce binaries with GCJ, didn't
quite work so well either.  :p
13:33 < Ina> GJC *
13:34 < Aram> I feel gccgo has the same usefulness as gcj :-P.
13:34 < Ina> heh
13:34 < aiju> anything gcc is worth avoiding
13:35 < Ina> I just wish there was a reliable way to compile Java (or,
preferably, Java Bytecode) to binary form.
13:35 < Ina> Plug in a .jar, get out an executable.
13:36 < jumzi> you do?
13:36 < aiju> rm optimizes java pretty well
13:36 < jumzi> I wish there where noway to compile java
13:36 < aiju> plug in a .jar, get out everything sane in it
13:36 * jumzi runs away to his bickering buck
13:37 < Ina> Well, my background is in Java development, and the requirement
to have a JVM installed to run Java is one of my main reasons I'm bothering to
expand my horizons.
13:37 < adu> aiju you really don't like gcc do you
13:38 < aiju> yeah
13:38 < adu> aiju: it's good to know what you like, and what you don't
13:38 < aiju> haha
13:38 < Ina> And I like go, it just doesn't satisfy all my requirements.
13:38 < aiju> i can call a non-existant method
13:38 < aiju> wtf?
13:38 < adu> Ina: like what?
13:39 < Ina> Most importantly: proper windows support
13:39 < Aram> it will get there, for sure.
13:39 < aiju> have i missed a new Go feature that Go guesses misspelled
function names?
13:39 < aiju> like Google does :P
13:39 < Ina> Yeah, I know, Aram.
13:39 < Aram> aiju: C on VMS has that feature.
13:39 < adu> Ina: I'm writing my own go compiler, so I'm accepting
suggestions
13:39 < Ina> Hence why I haven't given up on the language.
13:39 < Aram> it "guesses" struct fields name if you spelled them wrong.
13:39 < aiju> Showing results for BinaryOperator.Evaluate() instead of
UnaryOperator.Evaluate()
13:40 < aiju> that's what happening right now :D
13:40 < Ina> adu, full windows support, and preferably as little
crossplatforming mess as possible.
13:41 < Ina> Ideally, I want to write once, and have it compile on windows,
OSX, and Linux
13:41 * TheSeeker upgraded to win7 (x64) ...  it has issues with msys :(
13:41 < aiju> why do you run Windows just to run a Unix emulation layer?
13:42 < Aram> yeah.
13:42 < TheSeeker> goinstall requires it
13:42 < TheSeeker> as do the make scripts
13:42 < Aram> can't you cross compile on linux, run on windows?
13:42 < TheSeeker> no linux to cross compile from
13:43 < TheSeeker> hence, msys
13:43 < Aram> drop a linux in a vm.
13:43 < adu> hmm, I've always considered Windows a "burning platform"
13:43 < Aram> "burning"?
13:43 < aiju> I've always considered Windows a "platform to be burned"
13:43 < adu> it's from a Nokia memo
13:44 < Ina> My main userbase is on Windows, I can't ignore Windows
compatibility, as much as I'd like to.
13:44 < aiju> what are you developing?
13:44 < adu> Windows is a mess with some garbage piled on top, with methane
deprecated so it doesn't stink
13:44 < Ina> Games
13:45 < TheSeeker> I have limited resources, and one machine.  I require
windows to make what little money I can to avoid starving to death, sorry if that
conflicts with your sense of superiority.
13:45 < aiju> adu: methane is odourless
13:45 < Aram> heh, I've written kernel mode stuff for Windows for years :P.
(and enjoyed it).
13:46 < Aram> (now I'm writing Solaris KM stuff...).
13:46 < aiju> Aram: what drug are you taking?
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13:46 < adu> lol
13:46 < Aram> TheSeeker: drop a FreeBSD in a VM, how much do you have?
can't you give 128MB to the guest?
13:47 < adu> TheSeeker: I'm not superior, where did you get that idea?
13:48 < TheSeeker> I don't presently have the resources to run a VM. if I
did, I'd probably install cygwin instead.
13:48 < Ina> adu, there's a distinctly anti-windows sentiment in this
channel that is...  quite easy to mistake for a sense of superiority.
13:49 < adu> well, I do feel that I'm more productive in *nix, but I think
everyone would be if they read manpages, so I don't see how that makes me any
different
13:52 < adu> aha!
13:52 < adu> I found a better word for goroutines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_(computer_science)
13:53 < aiju> i prefer to call them oranges
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13:54 < [muttox]> sigh i don't get interfaces
13:55 < adu> [muttox]: what confuses?
13:56 < [muttox]> well i have an interface with 2 methods and 2 types that
have funcs that satisfy the interface as in here http://ideone.com/kzO1o
13:56 < [muttox]> but it claims neither type satisfys the interface
13:58 < jumzi> Ina: dare i ask what games?
13:58 < adu> [muttox]: oh, I see what happened
13:59 < adu> [muttox]: you need to call it as &in.Name()
13:59 < jumzi> adu: you think you can make a compiler in the same grade as
6/8g and that family?
13:59 < jumzi> :P
13:59 < [muttox]> ahh
13:59 < adu> jumzi: no, but I think I can make on for go--
13:59 < adu> s/on/one/
13:59 < Ina> jumzi, nothing major.
13:59 < [muttox]> adu: im bulding it off the go for c++ programmers section
(since its the only one that actually tells you anything about interfaces) and its
not very explicit about it either
14:00 < [muttox]> as much as there is a lot of decent documentation for go
it does seem to be a bit all over the place
14:00 < jumzi> Ina: i can't but help thinking that the cellphone is better
for such games
14:00 < adu> [muttox]: your methods require a "pointer to IShape" and you
are giving the method an "IShape"
14:00 < jumzi> is a better market*
14:00 < adu> [muttox]: do you see?
14:00 < [muttox]> yeah im too used to doing things without having to
dereference these days :)
14:01 < [muttox]> C# has ruined my brain i think
14:01 < adu> [muttox]: oh noes!
14:01 < Ina> jumzi, from 'nothing major' you conclude the cellphone is
better for 'such games', wow, that's a rather big leap of logic there.
14:02 < jumzi> nah, just an unspecified answer i apperently took an faulty
assumption from
14:03 < jumzi> "nothing big" i took as "smaller games" ala frozen bubbles
14:03 < Ina> nothing major != nothing big
14:03 < adu> jumzi: my interest in selecting a suitable definition of go--
is twofold: to provide a runtimeless version of Go, and to lessen the burden of
implementing the compiler, thus increasing the quality or "grade" of the compiler
as you put it
14:04 < Ina> I don't have a big budget, but that doesn't mean I can only
provide very basic games.
14:05 < jumzi> Well given you wouldn't mention anything either to satisfy my
curiousity added to my assumption, i'm sry i'm sure you do great games or w/e it
wasn't meanth as an insult for once
14:05 < [muttox]> hmm it doesn't like specifying an *IShape for the func
which makes it annoying having to remember to deref on the call side instead of
once on the func side
14:05 < aiju> 15:02 < adu> [muttox]: your methods require a "pointer
to IShape" and you are giving the method an "IShape"
14:05 < aiju> bullshit
14:06 < aiju> methods with an *IShape receiver work well with IShape
14:06 < [muttox]> actually *IShape refuses to compile
14:06 < [muttox]> it wont let me specify pointer to interface for the func
14:06 < adu> aiju: where is that specified?
14:06 < aiju> is I an interface?
14:06 < aiju> adu: "Calls" in the specification
14:07 < aiju> [muttox]: why do those methods even have pointer receivers?
14:07 < adu> aiju: no it doesn't specify that implicit conversion
14:08 < jumzi> mention any games, website or w/e*
14:08 < aiju> the error is somewhere else
14:08 < aiju> Process(sqr)
14:08 < aiju> should be Process(&sqr)
14:08 < [muttox]> yep thats what i changed it to
14:08 < adu> aiju: I'm still trying to find out where you justify your
statement
14:08 < [muttox]> which is why im wondering bout getting the method taking
the interface to use a pointer instead
14:08 < adu> aiju: or were you just making things up
14:09 < aiju> sqr.Area() should work fine
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14:09 < aiju> A method call x.m() is valid if the method set of (the type
of) x contains m and the argument list can be assigned to the parameter list of m.
If x is addressable and &x's method set contains m, x.m() is shorthand for
(&x).m():
14:10 < adu> aiju: x isn't addressable in a parameterlist tho, is it?
14:11 < aiju> really?
14:11 < Namegduf> Function parameters are addressable
14:11 < adu> oh, cool
14:11 < aiju> yeah, it is addressable
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14:15 < [muttox]> ahh hmm that explains that i thought the composite literal
returned a pointer already, definately too late in the evening
14:16 < [muttox]> too used to assuming i have a reference to something on
construct
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14:17 < [muttox]> damn when did binaries baloon out to 1.3megs, i remember
them being 550k a while back
14:18 < Namegduf> I think it's debug information.
14:18 < adu> [muttox]: nope, most "New*" functions do something like {
return &MyObject{...} }
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14:18 < jessta_> [muttox]: the way interfaces implicitly wrap other types is
one of the most confusing things about Go
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14:19 < Namegduf> Eh.
14:19 < adu> jessta_: how so?
14:19 < Namegduf> It's simple but hard to explain.
14:20 < jessta_> adu: because they are pretty much the only place where a
type conversion happens implicitly
14:20 < [muttox]> its just different, when your used to things like c# or d
you have to remember a lot of things aren't done automatically
14:20 < Namegduf> Interfaces contain the method receiver, which is copied
when the method is called.  When something's assigned to an interface it's copied
into it at that time.
14:20 < adu> jessta_: I wouldn't call it conversion, I would call it magic
14:20 < jessta_> yeah, and magic is confusing
14:20 < adu> there is definitely type-magic in interfaces
14:21 < aiju> hu?  interfaces are bloody simple
14:21 < Namegduf> They're not very magic
14:21 < Namegduf> They do implicitly box, though
14:21 < jessta_> passing a pointer in to a function that takes a non-pointer
is weird
14:21 < [muttox]> no, RichTextBox.AutdetectURLs = false to allow an rtb to
auto detect urls is magic...
14:21 < adu> Namegduf: I know, but not every knows about itables or vtables
14:22 < Namegduf> jessta_: Do method receivers automatically dereference or
something?
14:23 * Namegduf doesn't remember
14:23 < [muttox]> think i might write a codewalk bout this so i don't end up
forgetting again by the weeks end
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14:29 < aiju> selectors in Go automatically dereference
14:29 < Namegduf> Thought so.
14:29 < aiju> both for structure members and methods
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14:29 < Namegduf> I just read . as equivalent to both . and ->
14:29 < aiju> yeah
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14:30 < aiju> that's what i gets down to
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14:56 < fzzbt> at first i just wrote foo-> as (*foo).  because i didnt
know of go's magic
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15:04 < aiju> heh
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16:08 < zozoR> :3
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16:45 < sanjoyd> Please suggest some small task that will help me get
started with the Go compiler.  While I have not written a single line of Go, I am
reasonably proficient in C, and have worked on JIT compilers before.
Specifically, some task related to the garbage-collector would be perfect.
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16:47 < aiju> JIT compilers, how do you write them without becoming a huge
mess?
16:48 < sanjoyd> Discipline.  I have not written one from scratch, though.
16:48 < Namegduf> Go isn't JIT, anyways.
16:48 < sanjoyd> Namegduf: I know.
16:48 < aiju> a bit OT :P
16:48 < Namegduf> Okay.  Not sure what the main todos seeking help are.
16:48 < aiju> the GC needs a complete rewrite
16:48 < aiju> to quote the source
16:49 < aiju> // NOT INTENDED FOR PRACTICAL USE
16:49 < aiju> (or something along that)
16:49 < Namegduf> Haha.
16:49 < zozoR> haha awesome
16:49 < sanjoyd> aiju: oh, sorry.  Is there another developer channel?
16:50 < aiju> sanjoyd: OT referred to the JIT part
16:50 < sanjoyd> Oh, okay.
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16:50 < aiju> i'm just curious
16:50 < aiju> i tried writing one for PDP-11 -> x86 and it became a giant
mess
16:50 < sanjoyd> aiju: try having a look at V8?
16:50 < sanjoyd> Very nicely organized.
16:51 < sanjoyd> Or Mono, if you don't like C++.
16:51 < aiju> hahahaha Mono *cough*
16:52 < aiju> and no, i haven't looked at any previous work, was probably
wrong
16:52 < sanjoyd> Actually, even I thinking of writing a JIT compiler from
scratch, just for the heck of it; this summer.
16:54 < nsf> sanjoyd: go for llvm tutorial
16:54 < nsf> llvm is a nice platform for Go, at least in theory
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16:56 < sanjoyd> nsf: LLVM tutorial?
16:56 < nsf> yes
16:56 < nsf> well, if you're interested in writing a Go compiler
16:57 < nsf> that's one of the options
16:57 < nsf> or you want to extend existing one?
16:57 < sanjoyd> Well, I'm not really interested in writing a Go compiler
from scratch as much as work on the existing projects.
16:57 < sanjoyd> nsf: yes.
16:57 < aiju> sanjoyd: maybe look on the dev mailing list
16:57 < nsf> ah, sorry then
16:58 < nsf> well, then dig rsc's blog and iant's blog
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16:58 < nsf> both have some internal details on Go implementations
16:58 < sanjoyd> aiju: will.  Thanks.
16:59 < sanjoyd> nsf: can you give me full names I can Google?
16:59 < sanjoyd> s/full/larger/
16:59 < nsf> http://research.swtch.com/search/label/Go
16:59 < nsf> http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/category/programming
16:59 < sanjoyd> nsf: Thanks!!
17:11 < zozoR> new irc client switched nsf's and aiju's colors, now its
confusing >.<
17:11 < aiju> hahahahaah
17:11 < nsf> :)
17:11 < aiju> everyone is white here
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17:12 < aiju> unless you highlight me, you will then turn yellow, the color
of disgrace
17:14 < Namegduf> I hope that doesn't happen to me, aiju.
17:16 < jodaro> yellow, the color of inedible snow
17:16 < aiju> hahaha
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19:20 < erus`> sure is dead in here
19:21 < zozoR> IS ALIVES
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20:25 < aiju> tensai_cirno: btw do you use the strongest public license for
your works?  :P
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20:28 < fzzbt> no, she's too stupid for that
20:28 < tensai_cirno> aiju, bsd!  ⑨
20:28 < aiju> tensai_cirno: 21:24pm up 114 days 9:28, 1 user, load average:
0.34, 0.23, 0.19
20:28 < aiju> oops
20:28 < aiju> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/3darCE9QPPRW5fzxBPcD/
20:29 < fzzbt> haha
20:29 < tensai_cirno> uh oh
20:29 < tensai_cirno> i'am loving it
20:29 < tensai_cirno> <3
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21:42 < jnwhiteh> If I'm making a wrapper for a package type (such as
http.ResponseWriter), is there anything that would cause code from within that
package to call the non-exported interface that I'm wrapping instead of mine?  I'm
running into a situation that should be impossible and that would explain this.
I'm at a loss otherwise =/
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21:56 < jnwhiteh> shockly, it was my issue =)
21:57 < jnwhiteh> shockingly
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22:09 < mpl> speaking of an http Response, does anyone know off hand where I
should insert an identification string for the requester to get it?
22:10 < mpl> the same way you can know you're querying an apache version of
that version (as long as it's enabled in the apache conf).
22:10 < mpl> *apache server of that version...
22:15 < exch> mpl: I'd go with the 'Server' HTTP header which you can set to
whatever you want in the response
22:16 < mpl> exch: ah, I had tried server_software, gonna try that.  thx.
22:20 < erus`> god how do people write propper compilers
22:20 < erus`> my enterpretter is twisting my brain
22:21 < erus`> interpretter*
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22:23 < mpl> erus`: they're smart and experienced, that's how :)
22:23 < exch> Do it in steps.  [code] -> [list of tokens] -> [list of
instructions/executable program]
22:23 < exch> And what mpl said :) You gotta start somewhere though
22:24 < erus`> exch: thats how i am doing it
22:24 < erus`> check out the mess:
22:24 < erus`> https://github.com/tm1rbrt/tomlang
22:25 < jnwhiteh> you are much better off writing a compiler in a functional
programming language
22:25 < jnwhiteh> but that's just my opinion
22:26 < jnwhiteh> there's a reason many languages are PoC'd in
ml/ocaml/haskell :P
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22:47 < sumla> can anyone assist with this bug:
http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=106
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22:53 < sumla> solved with: sudo apt-get install libc6-dev-amd64
22:53 < sumla> if anyone's keeping track.
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22:59 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts
23:03 -!- Adys [~Adys@cpc7-chap8-2-0-cust19.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined
#go-nuts
23:03 -!- Adys [~Adys@cpc7-chap8-2-0-cust19.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit
[Changing host]
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23:06 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-172-139.clienti.tiscali.it] has
quit [Quit: E se abbasso questa leva che succ...]
23:14 -!- MX80 [~MX80@cust223.253.117.74.dsl.g3telecom.net] has quit [Ping
timeout: 246 seconds]
23:15 < mpl> exch: works, thx.  (setting Server in the Response header).
23:17 < exch> cool
23:19 -!- npe [~npe@94-227-43-84.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: npe]
23:26 -!- Ayoi [~david@mic92-12-88-161-108-143.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping
timeout: 265 seconds]
23:29 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055057127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240
seconds]
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seconds]
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 14 00:00:05 2011