--- Log opened Mon Feb 14 00:00:05 2011
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00:19 < yebyen> hmm
00:19 < yebyen> does anyone use mustache.go?
00:20 < enferex> yebyen: I cant grow one...
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00:22 < yebyen> i just figured it out
00:22 < yebyen> RenderFile returns a string
00:22 < yebyen> anyway i figured part of it out
00:22 < yebyen> i'm still not writing the contexts correctly :\
00:27 < yebyen> this is ugly
00:27 < yebyen> but i have it working
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01:05 <@adg> i prefer go's template package over mustache
01:09 < yebyen> yeah?
01:09 < yebyen> the documentation says it sucks because you can't use
partials
01:10 < yebyen> i don't know how true that is
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01:10 < yebyen> all i know so far is it's a nightmare typing contexts
01:10 < yebyen> without something like yaml, maybe the yaml package would
help
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01:11 < yebyen> the mustache.go example just shows a map instance being
passed in,
01:11 < yebyen> simple map[string]string
01:12 < yebyen> for something like {{a}}
01:12 < yebyen> {"a":"hello world"}
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01:15 < adu> mustache?
01:15 < yebyen> yeah those are mustache's
01:15 < yebyen> my girlfriend loved it
01:16 < yebyen> you're not going to grow a mustache are you?
01:16 < adu> lol
01:16 < fzzbt> what are partials
01:16 < yebyen> the partials example is better
01:16 < yebyen> {{> templatefile }}
01:16 < yebyen> templatefile.mustache:
01:17 < yebyen> {{a}}
01:17 < fzzbt> like an include?
01:17 < yebyen> it's like include
01:17 < yebyen> yep
01:17 < fzzbt> you can do nesting too with go templates
01:18 < fzzbt> well uh kinda
01:18 < yebyen> then this article is out of date :)
01:18 < yebyen> cause it seems to infer that you can't
01:18 < fzzbt> well you can't do it inside the template, but in your code
01:19 < fzzbt> you can write a function which executes a template to a
string and then use that as a parameter to ancestor templates
01:19 < yebyen> the author of mustache.go says he likes it better because it
results in templates that do not duplicate as much text
01:19 < yebyen> it was easy as pants to get going
01:19 < fzzbt> well, he may have a point
01:20 < yebyen> mustache.RenderFile("base.mustache",
map[string]bignastydata{...})
01:21 < yebyen> then you burn down types
01:21 < adu> oooo big nasty
01:21 < yebyen> gtd style
01:23 < fzzbt> yebyen: here is example code how to do nesting with go
templates.  the renderIndex() function renders base.html which includes
index.html.  executeString() function executes template to a string instead of
io.Writer like the normal template.Execute().
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01:24 < fzzbt> base.html has a field {{ contents }}
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01:25 < fzzbt> which then gets replaced by results generated from index.html
template
01:25 < yebyen> so you have to code all of that logic into the template
execution thread
01:25 < yebyen> say, "when you find contents, look up index.html" in go
01:26 < yebyen> the filename isn't actually derived from the template source
01:26 < yebyen> i see what the mustache author thought was so special
01:26 < fzzbt> yeah..
01:28 < fzzbt> i think i saw someone do a version where the includes were
like {content|content.html}
01:30 < fzzbt> but you still had to write the template filenames in your
code
01:30 < yebyen> i think this way is better
01:31 < yebyen> let me work with it for a few minutes and see if i can
produce what i wanted
01:31 < yebyen> i'm trying to format posts from delicious, it would be swell
if i can get some real posts out of a database...
01:31 < yebyen> i think i had go-dbi working
01:34 < Xenith> Hmm.  Brain fart moment, but how does one do a multiline
string literal?  Specifically, I have a long string I want to pass to fmt.Println.
01:35 < fzzbt> Xenith: use ``
01:36 < Xenith> That'll work, danke.
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03:02 < yebyen> well i'm pleased
03:03 < yebyen> i've got mustaches and databases and go files, all living
happily in a web context...
03:03 < yebyen> not talking to each other yet
03:03 < yebyen> but hey, it's pretty far along
03:03 < yebyen> https://gist.github.com/818727
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03:16 < davisp> yebyen: Did you see Jan's post from today?
03:16 < davisp> yebyen: http://writing.jan.io/mustache-2.0.html
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03:42 < plexdev> http://is.gd/4VgOdO by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/pkg/go/printer/ -- go/printer: line comments must always end in a newline
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04:05 < cbeck> Has anyone experienced the following oddness with exec.Run():
04:06 < cbeck> Invoking with a nil slice for argv causes the child to run,
but exit immediately, or possibly close all its fds, I havn't poked it enough to
be sure
04:06 < cbeck> Invoking with []string{} has the same effect, but using
[]string{""} makes everything work as expected
04:07 < cbeck> I've only run into it with a few binaries, notably java and
picosat
04:07 < cbeck> I'm stumped, but that was a good 30min of wtf debugging down
the drain
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04:31 < davisp> cbeck: I wonder if that ends up translating to a NULL being
passed as argv which I could see causing random programs to freak out
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04:34 < cbeck> Possible
04:34 < cbeck> Although it occurs to me that java was actually something
else
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04:35 < cbeck> It freaked out unless the first element of argv was "" or " "
04:35 < cbeck> Regardless of what the rest was
04:35 < cbeck> Although I don't remember how that manifested, it was a while
ago
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05:25 < yebyen> is anyone building go under debian kFreeBSD?
05:25 * yebyen raises hand for yes
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05:28 < yebyen> at least, trying...  i get a strange error having set my
GOOS for freebsd
05:29 < yebyen> http://pastebin.com/pCbKB2TJ
05:29 < yebyen> ar: gnu/kfreebsd.o: No such file or directory
05:30 < yebyen> i don't know where it's getting that string gnu/kfreebsd.o
05:31 < yebyen> but it might be uname -a
05:31 < yebyen> rather uname
05:32 < yebyen> examining build scripts for instances of uname
05:38 < yebyen> i thought it was necessary to set GOHOSTOS=freebsd as well,
but that has not helped matters any ^_^
05:41 < yebyen> found the freebsd.c file that was meant to compile into
freebsd.o and fooled it, by placing it at gnu/kfreebsd.o
05:42 < yebyen> hopefully that is all that goes wrong!
05:42 < yebyen> something is wrong in cov as well
05:42 < yebyen> maybe I can write a summary if nobody else cares to...
05:45 < yebyen> something is declaring $(NAME)
05:45 < yebyen> for the makefiles
05:47 < adu> hi yebyen
05:48 < adu> I've been trying to build gccgo on ubuntu, does that count?
05:50 < yebyen> i'm afraid these are all still issues with uname that are
stopping me from getting through all.bash
05:50 < yebyen> think I've resolved cov and prof now
05:50 < yebyen> three one-liners is not too bad,
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05:51 < yebyen> it seems to have built all of the compilers!
05:51 < yebyen> i'll be surprised if one of the packages fails now
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05:51 < yebyen> adu: well now, i'm trying to compile runtime/cgo
05:52 < yebyen> (and failing)
05:52 < yebyen> are you failing?
05:52 < yebyen> ELF interpreter /libexec/ld-elf.so.1 not found
05:53 < yebyen> i wonder if i can trick it into using
/lib/ld-kfreebsd-x86-64.so.1 instead
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05:57 < yebyen> well it seems to work if i just symlink
06:01 < yebyen> i'll be damned, it bombs out on syslog tests
06:02 < yebyen> i've seen that on more popular OS
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06:07 < yebyen> well i assume since it's progressed to the tests that it's
mostly useable
06:07 < yebyen> maybe i can just wipe those tests
06:10 < yebyen> well i'd love to blog about this now but I feel like I've
done enough damage!
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06:22 < yebyen> my things all compile on kfreebsd :D woohoo
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07:03 < taruti> Was the size of a func() one or two words?
07:07 < taruti> unsafe.Sizeof returns -1000000000...
07:38 < KirkMcDonald> I would naively expect two, but I don't know for
certain.
07:38 < KirkMcDonald> (Function pointer + context.)
07:38 < Namegduf> There's no context.
07:38 < KirkMcDonald> Ah, okay.
07:38 < Namegduf> Go uses runtime code generation instead.
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07:38 < Namegduf> Whenever a closure is assigned, to basically curry it.
07:38 < KirkMcDonald> That works, too;
07:39 < KirkMcDonald> s/;/./
07:39 < Namegduf> Yeah.
07:39 < Namegduf> I don't know the size myself, that's just something I do
know.
07:39 < Namegduf> I'd ASSUME it'd be pointer-sized.
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10:19 < kknightley> is there any way to make go not complain about if foo &
256 then not being a boolean comparison when you are doing bitwise comparison, or
are you forced to do if foo & 256 == 256 ?
10:30 < Namegduf> No.
10:30 < Namegduf> Go does not implicitly permit if <integer> to mean
if <integer> != 0
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10:41 < kknightley> Namedguf: ok thanks
10:43 < taruti> meh, the go aes performance is abysmal on 386 :(
10:43 < Namegduf> I think that was one place where x86_64 was actually
significantly faster.
10:43 < Namegduf> But I'll believe that Go's slow, as well.
10:43 < Namegduf> It's kinda a legacy platform nowadays.
10:44 < nsf> http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
10:45 < nsf> windows xp 32 bit is still on a second place :)
10:45 < nsf> although I'm surprised that win7 64 bit is the most popular one
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10:47 < Ina> Win7 was pretty well received in the windows world, and most
machines are 64 bit machines anyway these days.  (and have been for ages)
10:47 < nsf> I was thinking about upgrading my windows OS to win7, but all
games say like you need 1 more gig of ram on win7
10:47 < nsf> it stops me
10:47 < Namegduf> nsf: Yeah, but Go on Windows is new.
10:48 < Namegduf> And on everything BUT Windows, 32bit is unusual
10:48 < Namegduf> And due to old hardware/OS installation
10:48 < nsf> Namegduf: well, we don't have a linux users survey :)
10:48 < nsf> unfortunately
10:48 < nsf> I'm using 32 bit linux
10:48 < nsf> for some reason
10:49 < nsf> (too lazy to upgrade to 64 bit)
10:49 < nsf> :D
10:49 < Namegduf> I have one 32bit system, and it's this Atom netbook.
10:50 < Namegduf> All my servers are 64bit, as is my main system.
10:50 < nsf> I think I should do the upgrade some day
10:50 < nsf> probably need to buy another hdd
10:50 < Namegduf> Sometime before 2038
10:50 < nsf> :D
10:51 < wrtp> anyone know a nice simple/fast algorithm for determining the
set of nodes that can reach a given node in a cyclic directed graph?  i'm getting
a mental block here - it should be really simple, but i can only think of the n^2
solution.
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10:59 < wrtp> oh well, n^2 it is
11:21 < Boney_> Namegduf: i386 is not legacy, For instance the Intel Atom is
32bit only.
11:21 < Boney_> Therefore on things like netbooks i386 one of the main
architectures.
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11:46 < decaf> atom is not 32 bit only
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12:30 < uriel> actually, I don't think there are any 32bit netbooks being
made anymore
12:31 < uriel> anyone knows if the "new" garbage collector has gone in?  I
was not paying attention and a comment by russ seems to indicate so, but i can't
find the commit
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12:46 < cde> Boney_: Atom N450 supports x86_64
12:46 < cde> Atom N2* was 32-bit only
12:46 < Boney_> cde: I heard that some where coming but didn't know when or
if it would be for all of the lines under production.
12:47 < Boney_> thanks for letting me know.
12:47 < cde> np
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12:51 < KBme> does anyone have a good example of using gob?
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13:08 < wrtp> KBme: there are quite a few examples in the test file
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13:09 < wrtp> it's pretty simple: e := gob.NewEncoder(writer);
e.Encode(someValue)
13:09 < wrtp> what do you want to do with it?
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13:12 < KBme> wrtp: just playin', but i might use it to serialise functions
to json
13:12 < wrtp> emr
13:12 < KBme> or at least, if i understood right, i could use it to
serialise functions to []byte
13:12 < wrtp> erm
13:12 < wrtp> no
13:13 < KBme> awww
13:13 < wrtp> you can't serialise functions
13:13 < wrtp> how would it work?
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13:13 < KBme> well, for example for storing "callbacks"
13:13 < wrtp> well, yeah, but a function pointer can store loads of hidden
state in its closure
13:14 < wrtp> how can you serialise that in any kind of useful way?
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13:14 < KBme> ah yes, closures
13:15 < wrtp> sorry to dampen your fire :-)
13:15 < KBme> well, first off i didn't think of that :)
13:15 < KBme> dammit
13:15 < KBme> (but i don't want to store closures ;)
13:16 < KBme> nor function pointers
13:16 < skelterjohn> mornin
13:16 < skelterjohn> g
13:16 < wrtp> KBme: in that case, maybe the name of the function will be
good enough
13:16 < wrtp> skelterjohn: hi
13:16 < Namegduf> Name, coupled with a lookup table
13:16 < wrtp> yeah
13:17 < KBme> lookup table?
13:17 < KBme> but how to write it to a file?
13:17 < Namegduf> map[string]func()
13:17 < wrtp> although if you just pass methods, just the name is probably
good enough
13:17 < Namegduf> map[func()]string
13:17 < wrtp> KBme: just write the name of the function to the file
13:17 < Namegduf> Lookup in the second to write, first to read
13:17 < wrtp> when you read it back, look up the name in the table to map it
to a real function
13:17 < KBme> wrtp: and when the app closes you loose all the functions
13:18 < wrtp> KBme: huh?
13:18 < KBme> well so you have a lookup table, say someone adds a callback
13:18 < KBme> ok, you add it to the lookup
13:18 < wrtp> uh huh
13:18 < KBme> but then the app closes or crashes, on next start you start
from scratch
13:19 < wrtp> well, you're serialising, right.  so what does it mean if you
stop and start again anyway?
13:19 < wrtp> there's no dynamic code loading in Go.
13:20 < wrtp> so if you want functions to be added to the table, specify
that they must be added with a Register function (Register(func(), string))
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13:20 < KBme> i still don't understand how you make it persistent
13:21 < KBme> if you can't serialise functions
13:21 < wrtp> if that's done at init time, then you don't "forget" at
startup time
13:21 < wrtp> well, you can't serialise code.  it would be highly
non-portable for a start
13:21 < KBme> so you *can* serialise functions with gob, you were talking
about the ramifications?
13:21 < KBme> sorry, i'm a bit lost
13:21 < wrtp> no, you can't
13:21 < Namegduf> KBme: You make it persistent by using the same names each
time
13:22 < wrtp> yup
13:22 < Namegduf> That's all that's necessary.
13:22 < Namegduf> If the name doesn't exist when the lookup is gone, the
same function doesn't exist and there's not much you can do.
13:22 < wrtp> say you *could* serialise functions.  what happens if you try
to unserialise a function on a different architecture?
13:22 < skelterjohn> wouldn't that be neat if you could serialize functions,
and send them (and there closures) over the network?
13:22 < Namegduf> Or with different versions of packages and different types
loaded.
13:23 < KBme> wrtp: it's text, so as long as your function isn't
arch-dependent
13:23 < skelterjohn> that would make distributed computing very interesting
13:23 < Namegduf> skelterjohn: I'm not sure what you'd expect the semantics
of that o be.
13:23 < Namegduf> No, functions are not text.
13:23 < Namegduf> Go is a compiled language.
13:23 < KBme> skelterjohn: yeah, closures would be a pita tho
13:23 < wrtp> KBme: it's not text any more.
13:23 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: I have no expectations about it at all
13:23 < skelterjohn> It would be a tremendously difficult and non-worthwhile
thing to do
13:23 < KBme> ok, yeah, i understand the problem...dammit :)
13:24 < wrtp> skelterjohn: a closure is a reference object.  if you
serialise it and unserialise it, then how do you keep the same references?
13:24 < Namegduf> Also it wouldn't need to be a change of arch.
13:24 < skelterjohn> right...  that's why it would be so difficult
13:24 < Namegduf> A change of a type would break it.
13:24 < Namegduf> Or a change in a package API.
13:24 < Namegduf> Or, well, a lot of things would.
13:24 < wrtp> skelterjohn: i don't think it could be done
13:24 < skelterjohn> sorry, i didn't mean that "we should be able to
serialize funcs+closures"
13:24 < Namegduf> Yeah, I know
13:24 < skelterjohn> wrtp: Of course it *could* be done
13:25 < Namegduf> You'd need to serialise it as some kind of portable
bytecode
13:25 < skelterjohn> it would just be silly to *do*
13:25 < Namegduf> With a portable API
13:25 < Namegduf> And then unserialise it back to regular code
13:25 < Namegduf> And it'd be *weird*
13:25 < wrtp> i don't think you could do it with any kind of coherent
semantics
13:25 < wrtp> even if you serialised it as portable bytecode etc
13:25 < Namegduf> A closure would need to save the state, too, and in a
manner that multiple closures from the same context shared it.
13:26 < KBme> yeah
13:26 < KBme> lol that's impossible
13:26 < skelterjohn> the gob you send over would have to include information
on how to write to data on the home machine
13:26 < Namegduf> The portable API part would require an additional API be
defined, and some way to convert ALL stuff to it.
13:26 < Namegduf> It'd be crazy.
13:27 < KBme> it would pretty much need to send the environment and
synchronise between the origin and the destination
13:27 < KBme> it'd be fun tho
13:27 < Namegduf> Anyways, KBme: Define a scheme for mapping functions to
names and names to functions, do the mapping when serialising, such that between
runs the same function has the same name
13:27 < wrtp> KBme: yeah.  but what if there's no communication between the
two?
13:27 < Namegduf> And serialising and unserialising will work and retain
function pointers
13:27 < Namegduf> You cannot use closures
13:27 < wrtp> there is another approach
13:27 < skelterjohn> wrtp: then how could you send the gob over?
13:27 < wrtp> that is useful sometimes
13:28 < KBme> wrtp: that means that i can only have callbacks that are
predefined, right?
13:28 < wrtp> which is to define a data representation of a function, for
instance an abstract syntax tree
13:28 < wrtp> KBme: or registered
13:28 < KBme> ya
13:28 < wrtp> then serialise the data
13:28 < rm445> I don't see why you need to get all fancy with serialised
functions - just pass the executable code and let don't worry about different
architectures.
13:28 < wrtp> and interpret it when you get it back
13:28 < Namegduf> Registering will work, so long as all registrations are
done before unserialising.
13:28 < wrtp> rm445: how much code?
13:28 < Namegduf> rm445: That won't work.
13:29 < wrtp> all the code that it calls?
13:29 < wrtp> what if it calls a different version of fmt.Printf?
13:29 < Namegduf> You can't "pass the executable code" remotely easily.
13:29 < Namegduf> This is a lot easier.
13:29 < KBme> i think you can pass functions via netchans no?
13:29 < KBme> or rpc?
13:30 < wrtp> KBme: no
13:30 < wrtp> no
13:30 < wrtp> no
13:30 < Namegduf> No.
13:30 < KBme> s,pass,register
13:30 < KBme> oh
13:30 < Namegduf> Register is different
13:30 < wrtp> KBme: rpc uses method names
13:30 < Namegduf> You call them remotely, and they run on the remote machine
13:30 < Namegduf> By name
13:30 < Namegduf> There is no passing of the function
13:30 < wrtp> netchan doesn't know about functions
13:30 < KBme> ok, so i can't register externally either, so it's not hugely
useful
13:30 < Namegduf> Remote Procedure Call does, but it's a call that is sent,
and results sent back, not a function.
13:31 < wrtp> part of the point of serialising is being able to talk to a
different version of a program - either across a network, or across time
13:31 < wrtp> KBme: what's your scenario?  what kind of thing is serialising
and what kind of thing is de-serialising?
13:31 < wrtp> you doing it across a network?
13:31 < wrtp> or just storing to disk?
13:32 < KBme> ok so an exact example is my go library
13:32 < KBme> if i would like to define callbacks
13:32 < KBme> but have the callbacks persistent, stored in a configuration
file (json)
13:32 < wrtp> what does your go library do?
13:33 < KBme> so i don't need to redefine the callbacks every thime it's
started, and i can add callbacks during runtime
13:33 < KBme> it's an irc library
13:33 < KBme> actually, i want to add this functionality to either the irc
library or the filesystem
13:33 < KBme> i haven't really decided yet
13:34 < KBme> but as it is, neither :)
13:34 < wrtp> KBme: your program only has a finite number of functions that
can be used as callbacks, right?
13:34 < wrtp> 'cos you're not using closures
13:34 < wrtp> i think you're thinking at too low a level
13:34 < wrtp> you want to think: what does this callback *represent*?
13:35 < KBme> wrtp: well no, something like func (n *Network)
RegCallback(name, func(chan *IrcMessage, chan bool))
13:35 < wrtp> and define your external data format to reflect that
13:35 < KBme> wrtp: true, but in irc there is just so many different things
that can be done..
13:36 < KBme> but yeah, i'll think of an other way, i don't really like
callbacks all that much anyways
13:36 < KBme> for example do an exporter using netchans
13:36 < wrtp> callbacks aren't really the Go Way
13:36 < KBme> that shouldsuffice
13:37 < wrtp> KBme: i don't see why you'd want to use netchans at all in
your situation
13:37 < wrtp> you've only got one program
13:37 < KBme> wrtp: for user defined stuff
13:37 < wrtp> netchan is about inter-process communication
13:37 < KBme> so the user can just make an app that imports irchans and
responds to "events"
13:37 < KBme> that's fine
13:38 < wrtp> can't you just define a load of different kind of event data
structures
13:38 < wrtp> ?
13:38 < wrtp> each one corresponds to one of your callbacks, kinda
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13:39 < wrtp> then either you have one channel of Event, or many channels,
each corresponding to a different kind of Event.
13:39 < KBme> yes, that's what i have :)
13:39 < KBme> so i can just export event channels using netchans, that's
simple enough
13:40 < adu> i have coolchans B)
13:40 < KBme> the issue is also that i have one goroutine per "event" pretty
much
13:40 < KBme> but i guess goroutines aren't that expensive
13:40 < wrtp> KBme: i still don't see why you wanna use netchans
13:41 < wrtp> you can usually avoid using one goroutine per event.
13:41 < KBme> that's what i'm trying to work out, among other things
13:42 < KBme> i just thought it could be cool to have the user be able to
define new callback functions at runtime but meh it's not worth it
13:45 < adu> notworthitchans
13:45 < adu> callbackchans
13:46 < Namegduf> How can a user define functions at runtime in a compiled
language
13:47 < KBme> just output text to a file (with some smart package name
defining), compile it and run it
13:47 < adu> Namegduf: function pointers or lambdas
13:47 < KBme> then it can rpc or import netchans
13:47 < Namegduf> adu: NEW functions.
13:47 < KBme> yes, it's ugly, and i won't do it.
13:47 < Namegduf> At *runtime*.
13:47 < adu> Namegduf: lambdas are new functions
13:48 < Namegduf> adu: You can't define them at runtime as a user.
13:48 < Namegduf> Assuming you mean "closures"
13:48 < adu> Namegduf: and you can then take the & of a lambda to get a NEW
function pointer
13:48 < adu> Namegduf: tomato tomato
13:49 < Namegduf> adu: You can't define new ones at runtime.  You can call
it to generate a new context of an existing one.
13:49 < Namegduf> KBme: Yeah, you'd need to figure out how to link the
function in between sessions yourself, you can't simply serialise it.
13:50 < Namegduf> That said, you can't compile and "run" anything in Go, as
there's no runtime loading of code.
13:50 < KBme> i can just run it as an executable and use rpc or netchans
13:50 < Namegduf> You can, in which case it could register itself with a
name in your lookup table
13:51 < KBme> yep
13:51 < wrtp> adu: all a lambda is is a conjunction of data and an existing
function.  if you define the data in a serialisable way, then you're all set.
13:51 < Namegduf> You'd just have to figure out how to reload the current
set of external processes.
13:51 < KBme> Namegduf: but then you get one file (and one process) per
callback...ah well
13:51 < KBme> yep
13:51 < Namegduf> Yeah.
13:51 < Namegduf> It's a tricky thing to do.
13:52 < Namegduf> My goal is to
13:52 < Namegduf> at some point, implement module loading via restarting and
serialising state to the new process.
13:52 < Namegduf> Along with other upgrades.
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13:52 < Namegduf> But I've other issues to deal with first.
13:53 < KBme> Namegduf: an exporter using netchans is pretty darn easy to
do, then you have to handle output to file and (re)compilation..it's not that
complicated
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13:55 < wrtp> KBme: why do you want to use netchans??!!
13:55 < wrtp> i don't think you understand what netchans do...  :-)
13:55 < KBme> sure i do, i used them
13:56 < KBme> "dynamic" code loading with predefined interfaces can be done
using either netchans or rpc
13:56 < KBme> i don't see much other ways to do it
13:57 < KBme> but i'm interested if you do
13:57 < KBme> although i gott go right now
13:58 < KBme> bbl
13:59 < wrtp> netchans are about talking to another program.  how does that
give you any kind of code loading, "dynamic" or not?
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14:00 < KBme> wrtp: run the program and have it import a channel
14:01 < KBme> so when i tell the central program to load a module, I can run
the module as an external program and communicate with it using netchans
14:01 < KBme> ok bbl
14:02 < aiju> sounds evil
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14:03 < wrtp> KBme: ok, sure.
14:04 < wrtp> sounds a bit like overkill, but it'll work
14:04 < jessta_> oh no, not this discussion again
14:04 < wrtp> KBme: you might possibly be interested in my recent blog post
where i was talking about stuff relevant here
14:05 < wrtp> running rpc and netchan over the same channel
14:07 < wrtp> though something about it seems to make peoples' eyes glaze
over i think, 'cos i haven't had a single reaction from anyone...
14:07 < wrtp> maybe it's just too obvious
14:13 < wrtp> or incomprehensible
14:13 < cbeck> link?
14:14 < wrtp>
http://rogpeppe.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/bidirectional-rpc-with-netchan/
14:15 < wrtp> i've abstracted some of the functionality into a goinstallable
package: rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/ncrpc
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14:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/rCo4GD by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ --
build: run test/ directory first
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14:40 < KBme> wrtp: sounds interesting i'll take a look
14:40 < KBme> thanks
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14:41 < n___> Hi - is there any place (except language spec) where it
explains a bit better show one can "cast" one type to an interface (assuming it
implements it?)
14:41 < aiju> n___: just assign it to it
14:41 < Namegduf> n___: Just assign it to the interface variable.
14:42 < n___> What do you mean?
14:42 < wrtp> n___: the language spec is worth reading.  it's quite
readable, honest.
14:42 < aiju> var x yourinterface ; x = yourthing
14:42 < n___> The language spec is kinda confusing for a starter like me :S
14:42 < n___> thanks!
14:42 < wrtp> what aiju says: if your type implements the interface, then
you can just assign it to something of that interface type.
14:42 < aiju> most likely you will pass it as a parameter
14:43 < n___> And how do you assert if x implements y?  x.(y)?
14:43 < aiju> func foo(yourinterface) => foo(yourthing)
14:43 < wrtp> n__: depends on the type of x
14:43 < aiju> x.(y) is if you have an interface and something more specific
14:43 < aiju> x.(int) <-- assume x is an int
14:43 < wrtp> if x is not an interface, then no assertion is necessary - the
compiler already knows
14:43 < aiju> (causes a panic if it isn't)
14:43 < n___> i am looking for the Java's equivalent of "instanceof"
14:44 < aiju> _, ok := x.(y)
14:47 < n___> It all makes sense now
14:47 < n___> Thanks!
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15:46 < xyproto> has cmplx recently been added to Go?
15:49 < wrtp> xyproto: cmplx has recently been removed from Go AFAIK
15:49 < wrtp> complex has been around for a while
15:49 < wrtp> (and is still there)
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16:04 < xyproto> wrtp: thanks.  Just trying to compile the latest version of
Go-OpenGL.
16:04 < xyproto> wrtp: which didn't work out too well.  Oh well.
16:05 < wrtp> xyproto: what kind of errors did you get?
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16:10 < xyproto> wrtp: out of three examples, only one compiled, and it
segfaulted
16:10 < xyproto> (examples that came with Go-OpenGL)
16:11 < xyproto> I'm on 64-bit arch Linux, with a very recently updated
version of the Go compiler.
16:11 < xyproto> *Arch
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16:16 < wrtp> could you paste the compiler errors?
16:16 < xyproto> 6l is 6l version release.2011-02-01.1 7407 (the very latest
version of Go does not compile: waitgroup_test.go:8: imported and not used: sync
and :12: undefined: WaitGroup ++)
16:17 < xyproto> wrtp: sure, for Go-OpenGL: http://pastebin.com/KyPFXA88
16:18 < xyproto> wrtp: for compiling the latest version of Go, which fails:
http://pastebin.com/YB6vw8W9
16:18 < xyproto> gtg, thx :)
16:21 < wrtp> the compiler error looks like you might not have synced
properly
16:21 < skelterjohn> heh
16:21 < skelterjohn> since the error is "imported and not used: sync"?
16:22 < wrtp> xyproto: maybe you could try doing md5sum * in
$GOROOT/src/pkg/sync
16:22 < wrtp> and paste the results
16:23 < wrtp> mine works fine and i'm recently synced, and i don't seem to
have any differences from the main repository in that directory.
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16:23 < wrtp> the openGL errors are quite easy to fix
16:23 < wrtp> change cmplx to complex
16:24 < wrtp> and change the multiple-value receive to select with a default
case (non-blocking select)
16:27 < skelterjohn> Is the guy who created it active at all?
16:27 < skelterjohn> is there any way to fork the project?
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16:35 < jumzi> skelterjohn: is there anyway to obtain the source?
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16:37 < skelterjohn> https://github.com/banthar/Go-OpenGL
16:37 < skelterjohn> ah, it's on github
16:37 < skelterjohn> so, it can certainly be forked
16:39 < wtfness> is there any way I can compare types in Go?
16:39 -!- bortzmeyer [~bortzmeye@batilda.nic.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:39 < wtfness> something like a.type == uint8; or similar
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16:40 < nixness> sorry about that :p
16:41 < wrtp> wtfness: reflect.Typeof(value) == reflect.Typeof(uint8(0))
16:42 < wrtp> but also: switch value.(type) {case uint8: ...  }
16:42 < wrtp> and if _, ok := value.(uint8); ok { ....  }
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16:43 < skelterjohn> assuming value is an interface
16:43 < skelterjohn> if it's not, then you know its type by inspecting
source
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16:46 < n___> wrtp: what happens if a value implements two interfaces?  What
would happen to the equality check?
16:47 < skelterjohn> you don't type assert for interfaces
16:47 < n___> like if x implements a & b, reflect.Typeof(x) ==
reflect.Typeof(a)?
16:47 < skelterjohn> you know at compile time if a value implements an
interface
16:48 < wrtp> n___: when you do reflect.Typeof(value) you're always getting
the type of the concrete value inside the interface, not the interface type itself
16:49 < wrtp> if you want to check whether a type implements an interface,
you can use switch x.(type) or if _, ok := x.(someInterface)
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16:50 < wrtp> n___: if x implements a, you can't do reflect.Typeof(a)
because a is a type not a value
16:50 < n___> ok got that
16:50 < n___> (sorry, trying to get my brain un-stuck from java)
16:51 < n___> hm, what if can handle many types of Pencils?  The main
interface is Pencil, and i two implementations SoftPencil and HardPencil
16:52 < n___> but when I pass that, even if i know how to handle the Pencil
interface in general, i want to apply some specific considerations for the
SoftPencil
16:52 < skelterjohn> if t, ok := theGenericPencil.(*SoftPencil); ok {
special considerations }
16:53 < Namegduf> Bear in mind that if you're doing that, your interface is
likely not actually working.
16:53 < n___> and i pass the objects (how do you call them in go?) as
generic pencils?
16:53 < skelterjohn> var theGenericPencil Pencil = mySoftPencil
16:53 < Namegduf> n___: Treat interfaces as the subset of functionality of
the type required by that bit of code, not as superclasses
16:53 < skelterjohn> yeah good point
16:53 < skelterjohn> go is not OO
16:54 < skelterjohn> not in the way you're used to
16:54 < Namegduf> You shouldn't have a Pencil interface.
16:54 < Namegduf> If the two types of pencil can draw, can be sharpened, etc
16:54 < Namegduf> You should have a Drawer interface, a Sharpener interface,
etc
16:54 < Namegduf> And have code that needs those bits of functionality
expect those interfaces
16:54 < n___> you mean im over-engineering?
16:54 < Namegduf> That way, you can slot in pens later.
16:55 < skelterjohn> the nice thing about go is you don't have to waste time
designing class hierarchies
16:55 < skelterjohn> just write code
16:55 < Namegduf> Over-engineering and missing the flexibility of
interfaces.
16:55 < Namegduf> You don't HAVE to plan your interfaces ahead of time.
16:55 < n___> yea yea im starting to get the point now
16:55 < Namegduf> Write your two implementations, then define interfaces for
the subsets of their functionality that things need.
16:56 < Namegduf> If code in the future wants to use your types generically
with something else, they can define interfaces for the subset of the
functionality they share with that something else later.
16:56 < wrtp> n__: don't think nouns, think verbs...
16:56 < Namegduf> The only design you need to do in advance is try to match
the names and signatures of methods that do the same thing.
16:56 < wrtp> interfaces represent the things you can do to an object
16:57 < wrtp> structs (and other data types) represent the objects
themselves
16:57 < Namegduf> THe fact you don't need to define "superclasses" in
advance, but can define them when you need that subset of the functionality, and
they can overlap at whim, gives you way more flexibility for way less
futureproofing than OO
16:57 < Namegduf> It's really awesome
16:58 < n___> this helped me a lot
16:58 < n___> thanks*2
16:58 < Namegduf> Circumvents the whole set of problems you get in OO with
"Is a circle an ellipse, is an ellipse a circle", too.
16:58 < n___> yeah
16:58 < Namegduf> Or "Define your bird class, subclass for bird types, now
try to fit in an Ostrich"
17:00 < mdxi> from what i've seen so far, interfaces remind me of Roles or
AOP.  they define what something *is*; they declare what something *can do*.
17:00 < mdxi> s/define/don't define/
17:01 < Namegduf> Yeah.
17:01 < n___> thats the otherway around with java
17:01 < Namegduf> Java interfaces can do that, but they can't be defined
retroactively
17:01 < n___> and oo in general
17:01 < Namegduf> You have to declare you meet them.
17:01 < n___> yea, so it means that it defines what you are
17:01 < n___> by explicitly saying i am a Pencil
17:02 < n___> so in essense in Go, you don't care if something is a pencil,
as long as it can be sharpened to fit into a "sharpener"
17:02 < n___> right?
17:02 < Namegduf> Right.
17:02 < n___> gotcha
17:03 < zozoR> time to make perverted interfaces :3
17:03 < Namegduf> If code wants something that can be sharpened, and it's
sensible for multiple things to fit that definition
17:03 < Namegduf> Then you can expect an interface for the one or two
methods needed to sharpen
17:03 < n___> yes that makes sense
17:04 < Namegduf> The futureproofing there is to see code that could
reasonably apply to multiple things, and expect an interface
17:04 < wrtp> the other crucial (and lovely) thing is that methods with the
same name don't clash unless you try and use them.
17:05 < wrtp> so even though the interface method namespace is global, it's
very tolerant of fuzziness
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17:05 < n___> ah i understand
17:06 < Namegduf> It's overengineering to have literally everything expect
an interface for the exact methods it uses
17:06 < Namegduf> But if code COULD work on multiple things reasonably well
and meaningfully, that's how you let it do so.
17:06 < n___> after 5 years of doing exactly that, it comes natural
17:07 < n___> :p
17:07 < Namegduf> Yeah, Java is kinda big on the overengineering thing
17:07 < Namegduf> :P
17:07 < Namegduf> The abstraction boundary in Go, by the way, is the
package, not the type
17:07 < n___> i feel that packets are somewhat namespacs
17:07 < Namegduf> Code within a single package can feel free to depend on
implementation of other code in the package.
17:07 < n___> namespaces*
17:07 < n___> packages*
17:08 < Namegduf> They're also the boundaries at which public/private are
implemented.
17:08 < Namegduf> And they can't have circular references to each other
17:08 < wrtp> unrelated to all this: fancy reflective package of the day:
http://code.google.com/p/rog-go/source/browse/typeapply/
17:08 < Namegduf> Which forces a bit cleaner subdivision of tasks than Java
does.
17:08 < n___> yea i got that from the docs
17:08 < wrtp> prize for guessing what it might be useful for
17:09 < Namegduf> Just from the imports, you can see it's going to be fun.
17:11 < wrtp> all you need to know is in the doc comment for Do...
17:12 < wrtp> the rest is just implementation details starting from that.
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17:14 < n___> For how long have you been using Go?
17:15 < wrtp> since it came out
17:15 < aiju> Pike barely designed the syntax
17:15 < aiju> and wrtp already used it
17:16 < wrtp> to be fair i was already very famiiar with Limbo, a
predecessor of Go
17:16 < Namegduf> I've over 15 years experience in Go
17:17 < aiju> haha
17:17 < aiju> Namegduf: Alef developer?  :P
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17:18 < wrtp> i used alef too :-)
17:18 < aiju> i'm too young to use alef
17:18 < Namegduf> aiju: Nah.
17:18 < Namegduf> Nor Limbo.
17:18 < aiju> Alef was discontinued when I learned reading
17:20 < aiju> wrtp: don't you need to run Inferno to program limbo?  :P
17:20 < plexdev> http://is.gd/awILPG by [Hector Chu] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/windows/ -- windows: runtime: implemented console ctrl handler
(SIGINT).
17:21 < wrtp> aiju: yeah, but inferno runs on almost everything
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17:21 < aiju> but how can you get any work done with that wndow manager?  :D
17:22 < aiju> looking at Alef is like looking at extinct species ...
17:22 < aiju> there is a huge resemblance to both C and Go
17:23 < wrtp> aiju: yeah.  alef was never *quite* there.
17:23 < wrtp> limbo is still a lovely language though
17:23 < aiju> actually, there is also a resemblance to C++
17:23 * aiju dodges things thrown
17:23 < wrtp> aiju: i was always intending to rewrite the window manager :-)
17:24 < aiju> to[i] = from[i=0::strlen(from)+1];
17:24 < aiju> this looks cool
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17:49 < wrtp> no prizes then :-)
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17:49 < Namegduf> Serialisation?
17:49 < Namegduf> It was my only thought.
17:49 < aiju> "A query of type during run-time typically means a design
17:49 < aiju> problem."
17:49 < aiju> (Google C++ guide)
17:49 < aiju> interesting
17:50 < Namegduf> Go and C++ are different in that regard.
17:50 <+iant> A very different attitude in part due to the lack of garbage
collection in C++
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17:50 < aiju> iant: how so?
17:51 < Namegduf> Ah, I was thinking about how you needed to, when using
interface{} in place of generics.
17:51 < aiju> the part about exceptions seems particularly interesting
17:51 <+iant> one of the common reasons why you want to do runtime type
lookup is because you don't have clear ownership of a piece of memory
17:51 < wrtp> Namegduf: more or less, yes.
17:51 < aiju> it basically seems to say "exceptions are a good thing, but we
have too much code not using them we can't rewrite"
17:51 <+iant> (it's true that there are other reasons as well)
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17:52 < wrtp> it means if i've used gob to unmarshal an arbitrary data
structure, i can then initialise elements of that data structure in ways that gob
doesn't support
17:52 < Namegduf> Ah.
17:53 < wrtp> typeapply.Do(func(x *someType) {x.Init()})
17:53 < wrtp> oops
17:53 < wrtp> typeapply.Do(func(x *someType) {x.Init()}, unmarshalledValue)
17:54 < Namegduf> Neat.
17:54 < wrtp> i quite like it
17:54 < wrtp> particularly the way that the type to search for comes
directly from the argument to the function
17:55 < wrtp> type driven programming in go is one of its more unusual
aspects, i think
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17:59 < aiju> i often put information in types
17:59 < aiju> probably often too much
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18:06 < aiju> odd, the style guide doesn't mention goto
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18:07 < wrtp> that's 'cos it's not stylish
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18:07 < aiju> well, it's not mentioned at all
18:08 < aiju> no "don't use goto, it has meezles"
18:08 < Namegduf> I think if you use goto too much at Google they just kill
you
18:08 * aho opens the raptor cage
18:09 < aiju> they use retarded casts
18:09 < aiju> When the return value is ignored, the "pre" form (++i) is
never less efficient than the "post" form (i++), and is often more efficient.
This is because post-increment (or decrement) requires a copy of i to be made,
which is the value of the expression.  If i is an iterator or other non-scalar
type, copying i could be expensive.  Since the two types of increment behave the
same when the value is ignored, why not just always pre-increment?
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18:09 < aiju> hahaha
18:09 < aiju> what compiler are they using?
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18:23 < plexdev> http://is.gd/KTJGfz by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: decode into nil, this time for sure.
18:23 < aiju> hahahaha
18:23 < aiju> i love such comment
18:23 < aiju> "now i *really* fixed the bug"
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18:54 < plexdev> http://is.gd/OTiRt7 by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/archive/zip/ -- archive/zip: handle files with data descriptors
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19:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/L0TfFI by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- tutorial:
rework the introduction to give "Effective Go"
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19:39 < erus_> skelterjohn:
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19:40 < erus_> examples arent working on windows
19:40 < erus_> is it still the gbinstall thing?
19:41 < erus_> did you not add package "e" to the git repository?
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19:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/2fKPPV by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- makehtml:
use append
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20:34 < Namegduf> At present, I'm passing the result of a call to
fmt.Sprintf to fmt.Fprintf.
20:34 < Namegduf> This makes me feel ew and is probably inefficient,
especially since it likely gets called often.
20:35 < Namegduf> I can simply concatenate the format strings, but how can I
pass both new arguments and an existing set to fmt.Fprintf?
20:35 < Namegduf> Allocate a new []interface{} larger than args, copy into
it, and pass it?
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20:49 < Eko> What's the difference between the line encoding and a buffered
reader?
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20:50 < Eko> Namegduf: probably
20:51 < Eko> you might be able to make a function with its own internally
"large enough" slice that takes the file, two format strings and two
[]interface{}s and does the dual concats before fprintf
20:51 < Eko> just to avoid excessive reallocation
20:52 < Eko> or that just does newargs = append(argsa, argsb)
20:53 < Eko> not sure which would be best performance wise.
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21:52 < uriel> ls
21:52 < uriel> ouch ^_^
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21:53 < aiju> uriel: at least it wasn't ls /usr/childporn
21:53 < uriel> aiju: hahaha
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22:45 < plexdev> http://is.gd/JYRiol by [Alex Brainman] in
go/src/pkg/runtime/windows/ -- runtime: detect failed thread creation on Windows
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23:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ZYytAT by [Roger Peppe] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/rpc/ -- rpc: properly discard values.
23:04 < taruti> Has anyone generated Go openssl bindings?
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 15 00:00:05 2011