--- Log opened Tue Feb 15 00:00:05 2011
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01:11 < uriel> taruti: I'm not sure, but why would you want to?  Go's crypto
package is quite complete...
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01:49 < plexdev> http://is.gd/xoLd6v by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/cmd/godoc/ -- godoc: don't hide package lookup error if there's no command
with the same name
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06:12 < taruti> uriel: abysmal performance on 386
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08:05 < taruti> Is there any way to move an interface resolution out of a
loop?
08:06 < taruti> Basically "for i:=0; i<len(a); i++ { iface.Fun(a[i]) }"
and I'd like to make the interface resolving to happen outside the loop body.
08:06 < taruti> (yes, I am profiling things quite intensively)
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09:18 < jnwhiteh> taruti: you could probably do it using the reflect package
09:19 < jnwhiteh> since a method is just really a function with the receiver
as the first argument
09:19 < jnwhiteh> but I'm not 100% positive
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09:23 < taruti> ok got xts encryption speed from 2mb/s to 55mb/s on this
hardware :)
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09:39 < wrtp> taruti: you should always write for i := 0; i < len(a); i++
{ ...  a[i] } as a range loop
09:39 < wrtp> it can be quite a bit faster
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09:40 < wrtp> i don't think calling a function on an interface does
"interface resolution".  it just calls an indirect function.  i don't think
that'll be any faster if you make a function pointer outside the loop.
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09:46 < Namegduf> wrtp: I believe it involves two dereferences (one for the
itable, one for the function pointer in it) rather tha the one
09:47 < Namegduf> But it seems pretty slight
09:47 < wrtp> Namegduf: you're right.  the function call is about twice as
fast (3ns vs 6ns)
09:47 < wrtp> interesting
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10:16 < wrtp> jnwhiteh, taruti: out of interest, i tried to get the method
with the reflect package.  it doesn't work - there's a bug.  i'm not entirely
surprised.  here's the code: http://pastebin.com/hAf6kUsw
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10:18 < jnwhiteh> wrtp: seems to print "hello 4524540" =)
10:19 < wrtp> yeah
10:19 < wrtp> i get a different value
10:19 < wrtp> it's just passing a random first arg, i think
10:20 < jnwhiteh> I'm trying to understand what you've done :P
10:22 < jnwhiteh> interest :P
10:22 < jnwhiteh> interesting, rather
10:24 < wrtp> jnwhiteh: i passed in a function rather than the value
directly so that i didn't lose the interface methods
10:24 < wrtp> actually passing in a pointer would be more sensible
10:24 < jnwhiteh> yeah I saw that once I poked at it a bit
10:26 < wrtp> like this: http://pastebin.com/YtqQs8Cn
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10:36 < wrtp> i've submitted a bug
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12:06 * vice_virtue is sad because his RSA encryption/decryption method
occasionally fails
12:07 < vice_virtue> non-deterministic some how
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12:40 < vice_virtue> hmm
12:41 < vice_virtue> Occasionally rsa.EncryptOAEP() will output a block of
length 511 bytes instead of 512
12:42 < wrtp> vice_virtue: as usual, try to make a reproducible test case,
then strip it down...
12:45 < vice_virtue> Thanks, wrtp, :) I'm in the process of doing so.
Unfortunately, it seems to be pretty random (the function takes an io.Reader)
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12:51 < wrtp> vice_virtue: have you got any concurrency going on?
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12:53 < vice_virtue> wrtp, only in the key generation phase, not during
encryption/decryption
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12:54 < vice_virtue> I guess I should read rsa.go :P
12:54 < wrtp> you could try it with a deterministic rand
12:54 < vice_virtue> create my own io.Reader?
12:55 < wrtp> yeah
12:55 < wrtp> but i think i see what the problem might be
12:56 * vice_virtue is excited
12:56 < wrtp> if the number produced from rsa encrypt doesn't have 512
non-zero bytes (i.e.  it's smaller than 2**504) then Int.Bytes will produce one
less byte
12:57 < wrtp> that'll happen about 1 in 256 times, i guess
12:58 < vice_virtue> wrtp, that seems approximtely correct
12:58 < vice_virtue> as in, the distribution of failures
12:58 < wrtp> if EncryptOAEP is always supposed to return the same number of
bytes as in the input, that's a bug
12:59 < vice_virtue> I think it is, encrypting a 44 byte string will give me
a 512 byte output
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12:59 < vice_virtue> AFAIK, the size of the output is determined by my key
length
12:59 < vice_virtue> according to a formula near the top of that function
12:59 < vice_virtue> k determines the resulting size
13:02 < adu> hi vice_virtue!
13:02 < wrtp> it looks like the modulus determines the max size
13:02 < vice_virtue> Hi, adu :)
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13:03 < vice_virtue> the modulus and the hash function's output length
13:03 < dannyD_> hi
13:04 < dannyD_> im on linux but cant use the sudo command..can i still run
google go?
13:04 < vice_virtue> yes
13:04 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, you don't need to have administrator rights to
install go
13:05 < vice_virtue> just follow the standard installation procedure and
everything should work swimmingly
13:05 < dannyD_> vice_virtue: i have gcc but..what else do i need?  i must
say the installation instructions are not noob friendly :-)
13:05 < wrtp> vice_virtue: if you know the required length, you could always
just zero-prefix the returned bytes to the required length
13:05 < vice_virtue> wrtp, I'll adapt a version of rsa_test.go
13:06 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, which distribution of linux are you using?
13:06 < dannyD_> mm some ubuntu like..  sled10..
13:07 < vice_virtue> wrtp, that sounds like a good workaround, but I think
it needs to be fixed in the go source tree
13:07 < wrtp> yeah, i agree
13:08 < wrtp> perhaps you could come up with a test case that you could turn
into a testEncryptOAEPStruct
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13:08 < vice_virtue> I'll give that a go
13:09 < wrtp> none of the tests have a zero byte as the first byte
13:10 < vice_virtue> wrtp, I just need to find the correct seed
13:10 < vice_virtue> It shouldn't be an issue :)
13:10 < dannyD_> so..  i cant install go..  why dont make an install script?
..  make life easy for users..please?
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13:10 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, there is an ubuntu repository you can use
13:11 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, I'll do the leg work for you this time, but
search the mailing list next time
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13:11 < dannyD_> vice_virtue: ok..mailing list?  why must i be on a list to
install go easily?
13:12 < wrtp> vice_virtue: i think if you just use the same seed and keep
encrypting random data, and checking that the result is the same length, you
should get there pretty quickly
13:12 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu]
13:13 < dannyD_> vice_virtue: im not on any mailing list..  and no one
should have to on one either..  but thanks
13:13 < vice_virtue> dannyD_,
http://maketecheasier.com/install-google-go-in-ubuntu/2010/04/15
13:13 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, you don't...  you just search the google group
13:13 < vice_virtue> golang-nuts group
13:13 < vice_virtue> those are some instructions for building it from source
13:14 < dannyD_> why does one need to do so..  and cant just run things
right away..  like in java..  ?
13:14 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, https://launchpad.net/~golang/+archive/ppa has
an ubuntu repository you can use...  apt-add-repository is the tool you use to add
launchpad repositories
13:14 < vice_virtue> how can you do that in java?
13:14 < vice_virtue> You still need to install it
13:14 < dannyD_> yes..  by doing one click -> netbeans
13:15 < vice_virtue> you need to apt-get install netbeans first
13:15 < dannyD_> not on windows
13:15 < dannyD_> one click
13:15 < vice_virtue> go is a new language
13:15 < vice_virtue> you still need to install netbeans on windows
13:15 < dannyD_> is Go for more ..mature..experienced users?
13:15 < vice_virtue> microsoft don't install their competitors products for
you
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13:15 < dannyD_> ok but you download and run it
13:15 < vice_virtue> It's for people who are comfortable with a language
which is still maturing
13:16 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, you do that on linux too
13:16 < dannyD_> ok..  thats the feeling i get..
13:16 < Electro^> Anyone have even the slightest experience with Go in
eclipse and have made their own packages?
13:16 < vice_virtue> it's two freaking commands, if you want to become a
software engineer then you need to learn to explore things...
13:16 < Electro^> i cannot get mine to work...  at all
13:16 < dannyD_> maybe with time the easy and user friendly/noob friendly
will come...
13:17 < Namegduf> Go programs can just be run.
13:17 < vice_virtue> Electro^, are you using goclipse?
13:17 < Electro^> vice_virtue: yes
13:17 < Namegduf> They require installing the Go setup to compile.
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13:17 < vice_virtue> the latest version?
13:17 < vice_virtue> And have you set up the configuration in the options
menu?
13:17 < Namegduf> This is a simple version control system command, followed
by a simple run of its build system.
13:17 < Electro^> i dont think its a problem with the compiler or anything,
just my knowledge of it
13:18 < Electro^> i can compile simple programs fine
13:18 < vice_virtue> Goclipse seems pretty alpha, but it did work last time
I tried it
13:18 < Electro^> i just cant figure out how to get it to find my packages
13:18 < vice_virtue> ohh
13:18 < Namegduf> If you cannot do that, then *you should learn how to*.  If
you can't use a VCS, you shouldn't be programming
13:18 < vice_virtue> Electro^, I'm afraid I can't help you, I use GVim and
Makefiles
13:18 < vice_virtue> sorry :(
13:19 < Electro^> in my main.go i try to import "readHandler.go", which is
in the package directory, but goclipse cannot find it
13:19 < Electro^> fair enough, perhaps someone else know :)
13:19 < vice_virtue> You don't normally import files by their filename
13:19 < vice_virtue> just by package name
13:20 < Electro^> dont work either im afraid, ive tried most every
combinations by now
13:20 < vice_virtue> so if readHandler.go has a "package blah" line at the
top, then "import blah" should get it working
13:20 < vice_virtue> I guess Goclipse isn't setting up the package search
variables correctly...  or something like that
13:20 < Electro^> thats my guess
13:24 < skelterjohn> morning
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13:26 < wrtp> vice_virtue: 0x6d, 0x3, 0xc8, 0xfd, 0xe0, 0x19, 0x55, 0xf7,
0xfb, 0x35, 0x8b, 0xe2, 0x33, 0xa1, 0x1e, 0x16, 0xa2, 0x42, 0x67, 0x1b, 0xd7,
0x24, 0xc6, 0x15, 0x23, 0xa2, 0x7e, 0x22
13:27 < vice_virtue> As a seed value?
13:27 < wrtp> as an input value
13:28 < wrtp> other values i took from the first message in the first test
in testEncryptOAEPData
13:28 < wrtp> vice_virtue: this was the code i used to find it:
http://pastebin.com/E26xXmCU
13:30 < dannyD_> vice_virtue: how can I avoid this...: Sorry, user emag is
not allowed to execute '/usr/bin/apt-get install bison gcc libc6-dev ed gawk make
13:31 < wrtp> dannyD_: are those things not installed already on your
machine?
13:31 < wrtp> if not you might have a problem with disk space quotas...  :)
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13:32 < Namegduf> dannyD_: Run it as root.
13:32 < vice_virtue> if you don't have those tools then you're likely out of
luck.  There might be some way you can manually extract the deb and run it
13:32 < vice_virtue> Namegduf, I think he mentioned not having root
13:32 < Namegduf> Ah.
13:32 < vice_virtue> (I mean extract the deb from the ppa)
13:33 < dannyD_> im at work...
13:33 < dannyD_> and i cant run as root............
13:33 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, it might be a good idea to use a virtual
machine so you can install the required build tools
13:33 < dannyD_> ill do this @ home..  :-( thanks..
13:33 < jumzi> fire up your laptop?  Be creative :P
13:33 < vice_virtue> VirtualBox works
13:33 < dannyD_> its at home too :-)
13:33 < dannyD_> oki..ill check it
13:33 < vice_virtue> dannyD_, there's also the "goplay" box on the
golang.org frontpage
13:33 < rm445> a deb is just an ar of two tar.gz files or something like
that, getting at the insides is not hard.
13:34 < jnwhiteh> when would a throw: mmap happen in my program?
13:34 < rm445> whether it's the most sensible thing to do is another matter
of course.
13:34 < dannyD_> vice_virtue: aha?  like to try out go?  but no filesystem
access?
13:35 < xash> Can I also embed structs into struct?  For example I have
"type Coords struct { x, y int }; type Object struct { c Coords; name string }"
Then I can access x by obj.c.x ..  but is there any way to embed Coords into
Object and easily access it with obj.x?
13:36 < rm445> xash: yes.  type Object struct { Coords; name string }
<<< this way, I think.
13:37 < Namegduf> xash: Yes.  Do not give the Coords a name when adding it
as a member.
13:37 < Namegduf> You can refer to it as obj.Coords.x and obj.x
13:37 < wrtp> dannyD_: try: for i in bison gcc ed gawk make; do which $i;
done
13:37 < wrtp> if you find that which doesn't complain on any of those
programs, you don't need to install 'em
13:37 < Namegduf> Bear in mind that this does not give you dynamic dispatch
of methods, and using it to try to "model" objects is usually a bad idea.
13:38 < Namegduf> But it is there and there are absolutely cases where it is
useful.
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13:39 < xash> Ok, thank you.  But it seems there is a problem, if the
struct, here Coords, is in another file ..
13:40 < wrtp> xash: that's fine
13:40 < wrtp> type Object struct {someotherpackage.Coords; name string}
13:41 -!- artefon [~thiago@189.26.237.132.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit:
bye]
13:41 < rm445> ah yes, we were talking about this the other day - the thing
about an unqualified name.  You use someotherpackage.Coords in the struct
definition, then access it with obj.x or obj.Coords.x
13:41 < rm445> (not obj.someotherpackage.Coords.x)
13:42 < xash> I _use_ someotherpackage.Coords ..  that confusing me
13:42 < xash> Uhrm, wait ..  stupid me ..  then it must propably Coords.X ..
not .x :-)
13:43 < hokapoka> Erm, anyone used the template package with {.repeated
section foo} ...  {.end} where foo is a container/list?
13:44 < hokapoka> As when it executes it errors with : ".repeated: cannot
repeat foo (type list.List)"
13:45 < hokapoka> First time I've used container/list normally just use
slices, which is fine just thought I'd give the container package a whirl.
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13:50 < wrtp> hokapoka: the template package used to understand an Iter
method.  so it might have worked before.
13:51 < hokapoka> I wondered of there was some kinda of iterate property for
lists that I was supposed to reference, but I can't see anything.
13:51 < wrtp> i think template should probably understand a method called Do
13:51 < wrtp> and call that to do iteration
13:51 < hokapoka> Right I see I'll try that out now.
13:52 < hokapoka> Thanks
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13:52 < hokapoka> Just doubled checked that it wasn't the tempalte that I
was using, ported it to a regular slice and it worked fine.
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13:52 < temoto> Having hard time defining constant []string.
13:53 < wrtp> hokapoka: actually Iter still works ok - it's just deprecated
13:53 < hokapoka> What signature would Do have to present to the tempalte
pages for it to itterate?
13:53 < temoto> const Registers = {"r1", "r2", "r3", "r4"} doesn't compile:
unexpected {
13:53 < hokapoka> wrtp: Oh, so what do you suggest?
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13:55 < wrtp> hokapoka: Do(func(x interface{}))
13:55 < vice_virtue> wrtp, I think I must be going about this incorrectly
(late night madness), but I can't get the same results as you when running the
test case.  The message created with that input seems to decrypt correctly
13:56 < wrtp> vice_virtue: i'll make the code more explicit
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14:02 < wrtp> vice_virtue: here's a test case that i added to rsa_test.go:
http://pastebin.com/T6Ykjung
14:02 < wrtp> (i inserted the 0x00 manually)
14:03 < wrtp> BTW the message *should* decrypt correctly regardless of the
number of output bytes
14:03 < vice_virtue> thank you :) I think I see my error too :/
14:03 < vice_virtue> Oh? in my case, it isn't
14:05 < wrtp> when i remove the extra 0x0 byte, the tests still pass
14:06 < vice_virtue> wrtp, when you run gotest on that code, do you only get
0,0 failing (the test you added)?
14:07 < wrtp> no, the test only fails when i add the extra 0x0 byte (but
yes, then the only test that fails is 0,0)
14:07 < vice_virtue> wrtp, nevermind...  my brain seems to be misfiring in
all directions
14:07 < vice_virtue> I had an extra test case at the end
14:08 < wrtp> the decryption works fine because any extra zero prefix bytes
are ignored by Big.SetBytes
14:08 < wrtp> tell me again: why did you need the output to be always the
same length?
14:09 < vice_virtue> Because decryption was failing
14:09 < vice_virtue> when the output wasn't the same length
14:09 < vice_virtue> And when I say output, I mean the result of EncryptOAEP
14:11 < wrtp> vice_virtue: maybe your code was assuming the output was the
same length, perhaps?
14:11 < jnwhiteh> if I'm getting a mmap panic, what memory stats do I want
to be checking in my program?
14:11 < wrtp> because it shouldn't matter
14:11 < vice_virtue> wrtp, on my system, the test case you created causes a
failure in decryption also
14:12 < wrtp> did you remove the prefix zero byte?
14:12 < vice_virtue> no
14:12 < wrtp> (the extra one that i added?)
14:12 < wrtp> are you sure the failure wasn't in TestEncryptOAEP ?
14:12 < vice_virtue> I'll pastebin it for you if you wish
14:12 < wrtp> go on then
14:13 < vice_virtue> http://pastie.org/1566448
14:13 < wrtp> here's my full rsa_test.go: http://pastebin.com/FNzRD1cC
14:15 < wrtp> that's interesting.  only the first test fails on my machine
14:15 < vice_virtue> With your rsa_test.go only the first test fails
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14:18 < wrtp> ah
14:18 < wrtp> well, perhaps you're getting the decryption wrong or
something?
14:19 < wrtp> oh, hold on
14:19 < wrtp> i gave you a version for which both tests passed
14:19 < wrtp> and you say the encryption test fails for you?
14:20 < vice_virtue> yes, encryption fails on the version you gave me
14:20 < vice_virtue> wrtp
14:22 < vice_virtue> I think I should come back to this tomorrow.  Thanks
for your help, wrtp (it's 1:30 here in melbourne)
14:23 < wrtp> vice_virtue: np.
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14:29 < xyproto> wrtp: Hello, you were right about the error yesterday,
updating with hg once more made go compile.  However, today I have a brand new
go-compilation-problem, if you're interested :)
14:29 < xyproto> BUG: errchk: fixedbugs/bug322.go:18: error message does not
match 'undefined \(type P'
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14:34 < wrtp> xyproto: i'll just try recompiling myself and see if i get the
same error
14:40 < wrtp> xyproto: are you sure you've reinstalled the go compiler?
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14:43 < wrtp> xyproto: what output do you get if you do this: cd
$GOROOT/test/fixedbugs; 6g bug322.go
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14:50 < jnwhiteh> there's no valgrind or anything like it that works with Go
programs, is there?
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15:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/1UhO5o by [Adam Langley] in
go/src/pkg/encoding/line/ -- encoding/line: fix line returned after EOF
15:00 < temoto> jnwhiteh, valgrind doesn't work.  There's no good memory
profiler, ATM.  There's performance profiler built with basic toolchain: 6prof.
15:02 < jnwhiteh> yeah, performance doesn't help me, sadly.
15:02 < jnwhiteh> I have a situation where the total memory allocated
continues to climb..  but the in-use stays the same
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15:02 < jnwhiteh> I eventually hit the malloc/free deadlock throw
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15:03 < jnwhiteh> this happens with the stock http.Handle webserver, so that
concerns me
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15:04 < jnwhiteh> I was concerned about a leak, but the in-use always drops
to the same level..  so it seems more like a problem with the allocator or
something along those lines =/
15:04 < jnwhiteh> ring a bell to anyone?
15:05 < wrtp> jnwhiteh: 32bit or 64bit?
15:06 < jnwhiteh> I believe its 32 bit ,let me check
15:07 < jnwhiteh> i686 on the server, so 32-bit
15:08 < wrtp> it might be worth recompiling as 64 bit (assuming you're on a
64 bit machine)
15:08 < jnwhiteh> I'm not, this machine is running 32 bit
15:09 < jnwhiteh> i'll test on my mac, tho
15:09 < wrtp> the 32 bit address space can be small enough that the
conservative GC gets false positives
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15:09 < jnwhiteh> the GC isn't hte issue
15:09 < jnwhiteh> because in-use remains constant
15:10 < jnwhiteh> it always drops down to about 650k
15:10 * jnwhiteh ponders
15:10 < jnwhiteh> I'll do some more investigating
15:11 < jnwhiteh> is it still the case that once a Go process has memory,
its no longer freed back to the system?
15:11 < jnwhiteh> it just holds it in its pool?
15:11 < jnwhiteh> or has that gone away
15:11 < wrtp> no, that's true
15:11 < wrtp> but the VM shouldn't carry on rising
15:11 < jnwhiteh> okay, so runtime.MemStats.TotalAlloc is the amount of
memory that we're holding
15:12 < wrtp> no
15:12 < wrtp> runtime.MemStats.Alloc is the amount of allocated memory
15:13 < jnwhiteh> (and still in use)
15:13 < wrtp> runtime.HeapSys might be what you're looking for
15:14 < jnwhiteh> hrm, so TotalAlloc is just an aggregate of all of the
alloc calls that have happened, regardless of whether or not we've FAKE freed them
back to the memory pool
15:14 < jnwhiteh> alright, that makes sense.
15:14 < wrtp> yes
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15:14 < wrtp> your best bet is to use an external tool (e.g.  ps) to show
resident size and total VM size
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15:16 < yiyus> wrtp: you would know how many bytes were read fixing issue
1305
15:16 < yiyus> which is what I was proposing
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15:21 < wrtp> yiyus: how woud it work when the input to binary.Read is not a
slice
15:21 < wrtp> e.g.  when you pass it a pointer to a struct
15:21 < wrtp> ?
15:21 < wrtp> would it partially fill that struct?
15:22 < wrtp> what about you want to read an int32 and you only get 2 bytes?
15:23 < wrtp> maybe it would be better to have a ReadPartialSlice function.
15:23 < xyproto> wrtp: with cd $GOROOT/test/fixedbugs; 6g bug322.go, I get:
bug322.go:18: p.Meth undefined (type T has no field or method Meth)
15:23 < xyproto> bug322.go:19: p.Meth2 undefined (type T has no field or
method Meth2)
15:24 < wrtp> yiyus: it would only read whole elements, and it would return
the number of elements filled in
15:24 < yiyus> wrtp: yes, it would partially fill the struct
15:24 < yiyus> but you are getting an error anyway, so you would probably
just discard the value
15:25 < wrtp> yiyus: i don't think that would be very useful.
15:25 < yiyus> of course not, that is not its intended use
15:25 < wrtp> yiyus: currently none of the code has to do boundary checks
when converting the values, which makes it faster
15:25 < yiyus> but it would work well with slices
15:26 < wrtp> with ReadPartialSlice (or whatever you call it) the check can
be done once at the top level
15:26 < yiyus> have you seen the CL? I don't see why that would make the
code slower in the common case
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15:26 < yiyus> only slightly, when you find io.ErrUnexpectedEOF
15:27 < wrtp> yiyus: i think your code can panic
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15:27 < yiyus> why?
15:28 < yiyus> d.buf will be filled with zeros, but it is there
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15:29 < wrtp> in your test case, try err := Read(bytes.NewBuffer(src[0:2]),
BigEndian, slice)
15:29 < wrtp> i haven't tried it, but i'm pretty sure it will panic with a
index-out-of-bounds error
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15:30 < yiyus> wrtp: i cannot check it now
15:32 < yiyus> but it will just be the same that src[0:4] with src = {1, 2,
0, 0}
15:32 < wrtp> no it won't
15:32 < yiyus> don't see why it should panic
15:33 < wrtp> because littleEndian.Uint32 does not check that its argument
is >= 4 bytes
15:33 < Electro^> Ok new question with Go and packages
15:34 < Electro^> i've now stopped used eclipse and using Gedit and makefile
instead
15:34 < Electro^> still cant make it work though
15:34 < wrtp> and neither do any of the cases in decode.value check that
there's enough space in the buffer
15:34 < Electro^> I have main.go, which have the line: import "readHandlar"
15:34 < Electro^> and readHandler.go which have: package readHandler
15:35 < Electro^> they are both in the same directory
15:35 < Electro^> 6g -o _go_.6 main.go readHandler.go
15:35 < Electro^> main.go:7: can't find import: readHandler
15:35 < Electro^> is what i get...
15:36 < yiyus> wrtp: because the size of the buffer is determined by
TotalSize, is independent of the result of Read
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15:36 < Electro^> anyone got an answer?
15:37 <+iant> if main.go and readHandler.go define different packages, you
shouldn't pass them to 6g together
15:37 <+iant> more generally, I think you want -I . to import a package from
the current directory
15:37 < wrtp> yiyus: ah, yes of course
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15:38 < yiyus> wrtp: let me know by email if you find any other issue, gotta
go now
15:38 < wrtp> k
15:38 < Electro^> iant: oh, i'll try that
15:38 < Electro^> thank you
15:39 < Electro^> have to leave now, but i'll try later this evening
15:39 < wrtp> yiyus: you should change your CL so that Read returns the
number of bytes read too, otherwise the change isn't useful
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16:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/84KGEx by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of go/
-- release.2011-02-15
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16:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/fszbZo by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/ -- tag
release.2011-02-15
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16:46 < n___> are there functions like pop() that act like append()?
16:46 < Namegduf> No.
16:48 < Namegduf> i := x[len(x)-1]; x = x[:len(x)-1] will work.  There are
few builtins and it isn't commonly needed.
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16:48 < n___> yea, slices
16:48 < n___> ok thanks, forgot about that:S
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17:02 < zozoR> No release summary this time?
17:02 < aiju> "we broke some things and added some; everything else is left
as an exercise for the reader"
17:03 < exch> I was just looking for a release log
17:03 < pharris> I'm not seeing Gethostname in the standard libraries.  I
expected to see it in 'net' (or possibly in syscall beside Sethostname).  Am I
blind, or is there some other way to do this in Go?
17:05 < exch> pharris: os.Hostname()
17:06 < pharris> Ah, so I am blind.  Thanks, exch.
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17:38 < jnwhiteh> pharris: godoc -q hostname =)
17:40 * jnwhiteh hugs godo
17:40 < jnwhiteh> godoc
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19:36 < plexdev> http://is.gd/2YlqD6 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ -- go
spec: minor clarification on channel types
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19:45 < fzzbt> how do you embbed fields of a struct in another struct
without repeating all the fields?
19:46 < fzzbt> and then initialize instance of that struct
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19:48 < skelterjohn> what do you mean "repeating all the fields"?
19:48 < fzzbt> or never mind
19:48 < skelterjohn> ok
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20:01 < twolfe18> skelterjohn: i just discovered your library, gostat
20:01 < skelterjohn> cool, what do you need it for?
20:01 < twolfe18> nm, i am just interested in possibly helping
20:01 < twolfe18> i am learning go now
20:01 < skelterjohn> what's your field?
20:01 < twolfe18> CS/ML/stats
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20:02 < twolfe18> i'm a 4th year undergrad at CMU
20:02 < twolfe18> was wondering if there is something smallish that you
wanted to add but dont have time for
20:02 < twolfe18> i was playing around with writing up kmeans to get to
learn go better
20:03 < skelterjohn> humm.  that wouldn't go in that package
20:03 < twolfe18> no non-parametrics?
20:03 < skelterjohn> non-parametrics are fine ( i think there is something
in there about CRPs)
20:03 < skelterjohn> but it's about sampling and evaluating densities/masses
20:03 < skelterjohn> kmeans isn't a distribution
20:03 < twolfe18> ok
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20:04 < twolfe18> do you want to do learning algorithms?
20:04 < twolfe18> or just sampling/probability?
20:04 < skelterjohn> that's what i do :) except i don't put them in that
package
20:04 < skelterjohn> my research is visible at go-glue.googlecode.com,
though i don't put much effort into making sure other people can use it
20:05 < skelterjohn> at the moment
20:05 < skelterjohn> but there are learning algs in there
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20:09 < skelterjohn> though tbh, i wouldn't mind seeing some other
statistical tools in gostat
20:09 < twolfe18> regression?
20:09 < skelterjohn> sure, anything really.
20:09 < skelterjohn> when i said "it's about sampling..." etc
20:09 < skelterjohn> what i should have said is "so far it's about
sampling..." etc
20:09 < skelterjohn> because that's all i've bothered to add
20:09 < skelterjohn> kmeans would be welcome in there, now that i reflect on
it
20:09 < twolfe18> alright, well i'll be messing around a bit and if i come
up with anything worth sharing i'll let you know
20:09 < skelterjohn> cool - yeah jsut start a new googlecode project
20:09 < skelterjohn> i am kind of liking github better, now
20:09 < skelterjohn> because people can just fork and merge.  not as
straightforward with googlecode
20:10 < twolfe18> yeah, i am more of a git/github fan myself
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20:11 < temoto> skelterjohn, hello.  That RL-glue idea seems interesting but
i can't grasp it quickly.  Do you happen to know any examples of tasks it supposed
to solve?
20:11 < skelterjohn> temoto: are you at all familiar with reinforcement
learning?
20:12 < temoto> skelterjohn, i guess barely reading wikipedia article
doesn't count.
20:12 < skelterjohn> :) it's not a great wiki article
20:13 < skelterjohn> RL is a framework for problems where an agent interacts
with an environment, performing actions and receiving observations
20:13 < skelterjohn> and also getting a numerical reward signal
20:13 < skelterjohn> the agent has to figure out how the environment works
in order to take the actions that get the total reward
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20:13 < skelterjohn> usually the reward is a function of where the agent is
and what action it takes
20:13 < skelterjohn> so the agent will have to take actions to get it to a
certain place
20:14 < skelterjohn> figuring out how the actions the agent takes affects
the observations it receives is the problem i focus on, and i formulate it as a
statistical question
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20:15 < temoto> Okay, that's easy so far.  Thank you.
20:17 < temoto> skelterjohn, but this
http://code.google.com/p/go-glue/source/browse/rlglue/example/agent.go AgentStep
method i can't understand.  Is `reward` argument the reward for previous action or
is maximum reward agent can receive later if he chooses best possible action or
something else?
20:17 < skelterjohn> that's 1-step reward
20:17 < skelterjohn> for cumulative reward, the term you'll see is "return"
20:18 < skelterjohn> meaning, rewards from now till infinite
20:18 < skelterjohn> infinity
20:18 < temoto> 1-step as in first or one?
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20:18 < skelterjohn> the reward signal sent by the environment to the agent
when it took its last action
20:18 < skelterjohn> one-step
20:18 < temoto> So it's a reward for previous action?
20:19 < skelterjohn> previous action and previous state
20:20 < skelterjohn> reading my code is going to be a tough introduction for
reinforcement learning, unfortunately
20:20 < skelterjohn> my advisor is 2nd author on this paper:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/jair/pub/volume4/kaelbling96a.pdf
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20:21 < visof> hello
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20:21 < temoto> This receiving of reward and taking next step in single
function..  is it intrinsic to or followed by examples of other codecs in RL-Glue?
20:21 < skelterjohn> hi visof
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20:22 < visof> why should i learn Go ?
20:22 < temoto> You should not.
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20:22 < skelterjohn> temoto: the codec follows the pattern set by other
codecs
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20:22 < visof> hello i__
20:22 < visof> temoto, why ?
20:22 < skelterjohn> visof: you should learn go if you like learning new
languages, or you have a project for which it would be useful
20:22 < temoto> visof, because you asked.
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20:23 < temoto> i'm not offending, it makes sense if you think about it
20:23 < Namegduf> Go will teach you the necessary skills to become a ninja.
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20:24 < visof> Namegduf, like Naruto ?
20:24 < Namegduf> Exactly.
20:24 < skelterjohn> naruto is a shinobi
20:24 < visof> haha
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20:24 < Namegduf> Also it's a compiled language, simpler and more readable
than many, faster than all but C/C++/Java, but easy as a high level language with
a large stdlib.
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20:25 < Namegduf> And with interfaces for interfaces instead of OO, which
are much simpler and require much less overengineering.
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20:25 < Namegduf> But it's mostly the ninja thing.
20:25 < visof> Namegduf, can we compare it with C ?
20:26 < twolfe18> visof: its nearly as fast as C, but its typesafe
20:26 < twolfe18> and garbage collected
20:26 < visof> twolfe18, so it's better than C ?
20:26 < skelterjohn> that's a very subjective question
20:26 < skelterjohn> it has advantages and disadvantages
20:26 < twolfe18> it would be inflamatory for me to say yes
20:26 < twolfe18> but it has a lot of advantages
20:27 < visof> skelterjohn, what are the drawbacks ?
20:27 < zozoR> my english teacher is calling programming AI : |
20:27 < aiju> Go programs are frigging huge
20:27 < skelterjohn> you don't have easy access to the decades of C
libraries
20:27 < Namegduf> Compared with C, it's simpler as a language, safer (no
implicit casts, garbage collected), has interfaces for abstraction, is somewhat
slower, and has a big stdlib and available libraries to make development easier.
20:27 < aiju> 21:29 < skelterjohn> you don't have easy access to the
decades of C libraries
20:27 < aiju> i consider that a plus
20:27 < skelterjohn> you would
20:28 < exch> I would also be hesitant to suggets it is almost as fast as C.
aybe it will be when we have an optimized compiler and runtime/GC, but that's no
the case at this point
20:28 < Namegduf> The primary disadvantage is that if Go *doesn't* have it,
third party libraries need you to write your own bindings if someone hasn't
already, and it's somewhat slower
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20:28 < Namegduf> You also can't do dynamic loading of code easily in
current Go
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20:28 < aiju> the advantages just go on
20:28 < skelterjohn> modern operating systems are written in C, not go,
which is a disadvantage for go
20:28 < skelterjohn> well
20:28 < skelterjohn> let's wait to hear what aiju thinks about that :)
20:29 < Namegduf> If you can handle it being a bit slower and don't need
dynamic loading, and either don't need a third party library (as is common) or
writing your own bindings isn't too rough for you, I highly recommeend Go.
20:29 < aiju> srsly, what do people need third party libraries for?
20:29 < Namegduf> exch: I said somewhat, not almost as fast.  I'd suggest
that comparisons would need to be very carefully done.
20:29 < skelterjohn> what does this cgo error mean: "could not determine
kind of name for C.foo" ?
20:29 < Namegduf> exch: Equivalent Go and C code in gccgo likely compiles
very close to the same thing
20:30 < Namegduf> It's more there are specific operations that are slower
than what you might do in C, but if you profile and optimise intelligently you
could eliminate those from where it matters, I suspect.
20:30 < twolfe18> can someone explain what dynamic loading is and why it is
useful?
20:30 < Namegduf> Dynamic loading is runtime loading of modules.
20:31 < twolfe18> so it speeds up application launch?
20:31 < aiju> it's what you do when you can't think of a proper way to
handle it
20:31 < exch> loading of shared libraries and DLLs
20:31 < KBme> it can be useful for plugins
20:31 < Namegduf> No, it's used for modular applications.
20:31 < skelterjohn> twolfe18: if two programs share code, you can put that
shared code in a separate module and give the executables instructions on how to
find and load it when you run them
20:31 < visof> is there job chances for Go programmers ?
20:31 < Namegduf> Plugins, etc.
20:31 < Namegduf> In Go you'd have to do that by putting modules in their
own process and using communication
20:31 < aiju> the overhead will kill your family
20:31 < twolfe18> wouldn't the runtime handle dynamic loading?
20:31 < exch> visof: I doubt it at this point
20:31 < KBme> visof: not really yet unless you're preparing for google
20:31 < Namegduf> The runtime does *not* handle it.
20:32 < twolfe18> the OS?
20:32 < aiju> Go uses a different calling convention
20:32 < aiju> it would be non-trivial
20:32 < Namegduf> Whether or not you think it should is another matter, it's
not an easy problem to solve.
20:32 < skelterjohn> twolfe18: it's a "not yet" kind of thing
20:32 < visof> exch, one of the disadvantages right now
20:32 < Namegduf> Nothing handles it.  Go does not do it.
20:32 < exch> visof: possibly, but not Go's fault
20:32 < Namegduf> I would use Go for writing servers, right now.
20:32 < exch> Just a matter of time and wider adaptation by the industry
20:32 < twolfe18> ok, it sounds like something that could be added to Go if
people started writing serious programs in it
20:32 < Namegduf> It is excellent and pretty for that job.
20:33 < aiju> twolfe18: it's not something needed for bigger programs
20:33 < exch> twolfe18: it's been discussed at nauseum.  Go will not get
dynamic linking
20:33 < Namegduf> Dynamic linking is Something Else
20:33 < aiju> dynamic linking and dynamic loading are related, but different
20:33 < Namegduf> And should not be confused for dynamic loading
20:33 < skelterjohn> exch: i was under the impression that it was a matter
of time, and not in the near future
20:33 < skelterjohn> oh
20:34 < Namegduf> I think the community has been vehemently against dynamic
linking, started talking about dynamic linking whenever dynamic loading has come
up, and the devs have actually said very little beyond "It isn't there now and is
not really a priority"
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20:36 < zozoR> Dynamic loading nad whatever doesnt matter when you compile
with lightning speed :D
20:36 < skelterjohn> it does if you want to modify your server without
bringing it down
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20:36 < Namegduf> zozoR: If you can serialise your current state to a new
run, and you're okay with all your users having a build setup
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20:36 < Namegduf> It's possible but hard
20:37 < aiju> skelterjohn: because the amount of time spent in the purgatory
is proportional to your server downtime
20:37 < skelterjohn> or, if, it's doing something at the moment
20:37 < skelterjohn> like, executing code
20:38 < Namegduf> The worst part is transferring net.Conn things
20:38 < zozoR> well, compile a new one, make the other one stop taking
requests and open the newly compiled, no downtime
20:38 < zozoR> :D
20:38 < twolfe18> can channels be made to do any kind of IPC?
20:38 < Namegduf> I *think* you can duplicate the fd and use Linux stuff to
send it, and then ???  to make a new net.Conn around it.
20:39 < Namegduf> The ???  is unclear, including feasibility.
20:39 < Namegduf> I want to figure out that at some point.
20:40 < twolfe18> that would be cool, language level IPC
20:40 < twolfe18> i guess thats what goroutines are for
20:40 < Namegduf> netchans might be useful.
20:40 < twolfe18> take that unix!
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20:47 < temoto> Namegduf, that's easy via fork and fd inheritance, but Go
can't fork yet.
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20:48 < Namegduf> temoto: I think Go opens most FDs to be closed on fork.
20:48 < aiju> Namegduf: there is always fcntl
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20:50 < aiju> you could also just split everything appropriately into
separate processes and avoid this altogether!
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20:52 < Namegduf> Everyone knows that everything is simpler and more elegant
when it takes 100 processes to start
20:54 < aiju> virtually anything is simpler and more elegant than dynamic
loading
20:54 < zozoR> aiju is a programming fundamentalist ^^
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21:01 < aiju> ├─java───84*[{java}]
21:01 < aiju> almost hundred
21:03 < Namegduf> Hmm.
21:03 < Namegduf> I'm not sure what that represents, so I'm going to guess
it's your hatred for Java on a scale of 1 to 10.
21:03 < aiju> haha
21:03 < aiju> no, that'd need some padding
21:03 < aiju> it's a pstree excerpt
21:03 < zozoR> that'd be 100?  :D
21:06 < zozoR> aiju, what is your oppinion on the .NET framework?
21:07 < aiju> http://aiju.phicode.de/rant/portability second last entry :P
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21:07 < Namegduf> Wait
21:07 < Namegduf> Do you really dislike the head utility?
21:07 < aiju> you = cat-v?
21:08 < aiju> and well, head is completely superfluous
21:08 < Namegduf> I assume you agree with most of their stuff.
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21:09 < aiju> the head thing is not much serious hatred (like Java) but
rather just noting that it's completely superfluous
21:09 < Namegduf> What about vim?
21:10 < aiju> vim is _terribly_ bloated
21:10 < aiju> but i actually use it out of habit
21:11 < aiju> vim has two turing complete languages, that's two too many
21:12 < zozoR> oh god yes, a rant page :D
21:13 < mdxi> vim needs to quit pretending it's not emacs, let go of the
hate, give in, and become a language runtime with an editor wrapped around it by
default :)
21:13 < aiju> mdxi: i want a good editor, not a pathetic OS-in-OS
21:13 < Namegduf> Ew
21:14 < Namegduf> I don't particularly have a problem with a special purpose
input language being Turing complete if it meets its other goals
21:14 < Namegduf> But I won't disagree with Vim being big and complicated
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21:16 < fzzbt> Namegduf: what alternate would you suggest for vim?
21:16 < Namegduf> I don't have one.
21:16 < Namegduf> I use Vim.
21:16 < Namegduf> I like it.
21:16 < KirkMcDonald> I, too, use vim.
21:16 < aiju> acme is nice, but it requires a good mouse
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21:17 < nsf> I certainly use vim
21:17 < skelterjohn> anyone around who has a cgo project, and wouldn't mind
trying to build it with gb (go-gb.googlecode.com)?
21:17 < nsf> vim rocks
21:17 < skelterjohn> just added cgo support, and i'd like to know if it
works on machines other than my own
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21:18 < aiju> i want to try cutting down VIM eventually
21:18 < skelterjohn> aiju: just stick to pico
21:18 < fzzbt> vim is okay, but i ofter forget shortcuts
21:18 < nsf> aiju: have you looked at its source code?
21:18 < aiju> skelterjohn: hahahahaha
21:18 < nsf> you won't be able to cut it down
21:19 < Namegduf> Reimplement it in Go
21:19 < Namegduf> Except better
21:19 < nsf> reimplementation is a better idea in that case, yes
21:19 < Namegduf> You know you want to!
21:19 < aiju> command not found: pico
21:19 < nsf> but I disagree about Go part
21:19 < aiju> feels god man
21:19 < aiju> *good
21:19 < skelterjohn> my mac has it
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21:19 < Namegduf> Part of its BSD heritage, I think
21:20 < aiju> vi is part of BSD heritage
21:20 < Namegduf> Part of my requirements for an editor include multilevel
undo
21:21 < fzzbt> multilevel undo?
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21:22 < aiju> haha my local machine has neither nano nor pico
21:22 < aiju> excellent
21:22 < Namegduf> nano is for Ubuntu users
21:22 < Namegduf> XD
21:22 < Namegduf> (Don't take that seriously)
21:22 < twolfe18> wtf, ubuntu comes with nano and pico, but no vim or emacs
21:23 < aiju> twolfe18: does it come with the standard text editor?
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21:23 < aiju> 22:20 < nsf> you won't be able to cut it down
21:23 < aiju> there is LOTS of cruft one could possibly remove from the
runtime
21:24 < nsf> good luck with that
21:24 < aiju> specifically syntax highlighting and localization
21:24 < nsf> lol, I won't use your version
21:24 < twolfe18> aiju: what is the standard text editor?
21:24 < aiju> twolfe18: ed
21:25 < aiju> twolfe18: reference to the manpage
21:25 < aiju> "Ed is the standard text editor"
21:25 < twolfe18> yes, it does
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21:25 < aiju> 4.8M syntax
21:25 < aiju> insane
21:26 < Namegduf> You touch my syntax highlighting I cut you
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21:26 < Namegduf> :P
21:26 < aiju> deal: i write a program which just uses a random colour on
each word
21:26 < Sh4pe> hi there
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21:27 < aiju> i wouldn't expect anyone to use my version anyway
21:27 < aiju> what good is an editor if it doesn't take up 50 MB of disk
space?
21:27 < nsf> it's 25 MB :)
21:28 < Namegduf> It's a matter of scale
21:28 < nsf> emacs is much bigger afair
21:28 < Namegduf> 25MB is kinda big, but it's useful in exchange for that
21:28 < Namegduf> Eclipse, OTOH, is what?
21:28 < aiju> hahahahah
21:28 < aiju> or MSVS
21:28 < mdxi> horrible
21:28 < Namegduf> Take a bloated C program, multiply the size by ten, you
have the size of a bloated Java program.
21:28 < aiju> -rwxr-xr-x 1 aiju users 6308 1975-07-18 15:49 ed
21:28 < Namegduf> :P
21:28 < nsf> most of those 25 MB can be easily compressed down to some small
number
21:29 < aiju> Namegduf: s/ten/hundred
21:29 < zozoR> i really am astonished by how much time you can spend arguing
about your editor : | as long as it types what you want it
21:29 < nsf> it's all just a textual stuff
21:29 < Namegduf> I use Vim
21:29 < Namegduf> Typing isn't what my editor does
21:29 < aiju> Namegduf: there is autocompletion
21:29 < Namegduf> Instead it parses a complex command input language
21:29 < aiju> to help you typing Open and Read
21:29 < Namegduf> I think I set that up to work, I just don't use it.
21:29 < Namegduf> I *do* use ctags, though.
21:29 < nsf> I also did autocompletion for C
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21:30 < nsf> gocode-style
21:30 < aiju> i use grep
21:30 < Namegduf> Jump-to-definition is useful.
21:30 < Namegduf> :grep is useful.
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21:30 < Namegduf> Grep, but iterate through matches within the editor.
21:30 < Namegduf> :P
21:30 < nsf> https://github.com/nsf/ccode <- very cool C autocompletion
for linux (requires llvm/clang-2.8+)
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21:30 < nsf> :P
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21:31 < mdxi> a good programmer's editor should wrap very smoothly around
your brain and disappear.  not everyone has the same brain.  vim and emacs have
both evolved to fill this ecological niche, and i consider both to be
extaordinarily powerful pieces of software.
21:31 < mdxi> i've never heard anyone accuse eclipse of being any of that
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21:31 < Namegduf> Well, it's for Java
21:31 < Namegduf> Or designed for that.
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21:32 < aiju> eclipse makes me work faster
21:32 -!- derferman [~derferman@citris-wlan-177-212.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has
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21:32 < Namegduf> And trying to fit Java generation into your brain is not
really a realistic idea.
21:32 < aiju> it is so terrible i want to stop using it quickly
21:32 < Namegduf> aiju: So you can-haha, you got to it faster.
21:32 < exch> I find vim/emacs far from smooth tbh.  too much brian power is
spent remembering just how to move a cursor around the screen :p
21:32 < aiju> exch: acme!
21:33 < Namegduf> I remember vi keys because my WM also uses them.
21:33 < Namegduf> As does NetHack.
21:33 < exch> [..........] <- brain capacity [########..] <- brain on
emacs/vim
21:33 < aiju> hahaha yes
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21:33 < mdxi> exch: whatever works for you.  but seriously, i've only ever
heard bitching about eclipse.
21:33 < aiju> i don't use vi keybindings in vim
21:33 < mdxi> i think it mostly just shows how vulnerable to fads
programmers are (hint: just as vulnerable as everyone else)
21:33 < Namegduf> Honestly, neither do I.
21:33 < KirkMcDonald> My favorite vim primer:
http://everything2.com/user/visudo/writeups/Vim
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21:33 < Namegduf> Well, if you want to use a graphical editor, and you're on
*nix, you're a very strange person
21:34 < Namegduf> And very strange people like very strange things
21:34 < Namegduf> So maybe Eclipse suits them?
21:34 < aiju> haha
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21:34 < aiju> something which terribly irritates me about X11
21:34 < aiju> programs start in seperate windows
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21:34 * exch certainly suits the 'very strange' category as he prefers Gedit over
anything else
21:35 < Namegduf> Wow.
21:35 < zozoR> gedit is nice :D
21:35 < Namegduf> Never used it much, actually.
21:35 < skelterjohn> i use xcode.  it's lame.
21:35 < mdxi> 13004986
21:35 < mdxi> DEPOD3F0085
21:35 < aiju> that's not valid hex
21:35 < mdxi> whoa
21:35 < mdxi> sorry
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21:36 < aiju> Eclipse is nothing to what i've heard about MSVS 2010
21:36 < aiju> apparently deleting lines can fail because of lack of memory
21:36 < aiju> and virtually any operation can cause it to crash
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21:39 < mdxi> skelterjohn: i think xcode is really nice, and shows what a
modern, shiny, programmer's tool *should* be like.  i just don't write Mac apps.
right now.
21:39 < aiju> "shiny"?
21:39 < twolfe18> pretty UI
21:39 < mdxi> xcode is shiny
21:39 < skelterjohn> i just use the file explorer and editor
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21:39 < skelterjohn> i use zero other features
21:39 < skelterjohn> well, for go
21:40 < skelterjohn> when i write objc code, i use the other features
21:40 < skelterjohn> i don't like how its file grouping doesn't have to
match directory structure
21:40 < aiju> objc - all the memory safety of C with the blazing speed of
smalltalk
21:40 < exch> I'm sure this wont score me any popularity points, but i've
always quite enjoyed Visual Studio Express editions while I was still working on
windows stuff.  One of the very few things MS did do right imho
21:41 < nsf> :\
21:41 < aiju> exch: i like the feature which allows you to fetch coffee
during most operations
21:41 < nsf> I know only one thing MS did right
21:41 < exch> that's always a bonus
21:41 < aiju> kinda nice of the program
21:41 < nsf> it's MS Office
21:41 < Namegduf> MS Office isn't bad
21:41 < nsf> it just works even if you're a grandma
21:41 < mdxi> i was gonna say Flight Sim 4
21:41 < Namegduf> I think that's going a bit far
21:42 < Namegduf> MS Office is pretty complicated if you don't know where
all the buttons are already
21:42 < Namegduf> The ribbon change demonstrated that well enough.
21:42 < nsf> Namegduf: 2k7 isn't
21:42 < aiju> i like how MS Office on modern machines is beaten by a ZX
Spectrum
21:42 < temoto> Freelancer game was nice too.
21:42 < Namegduf> 2k7 is horrible for that
21:42 < Namegduf> Because the set of actions needed to use a feature differs
at different times due to active pane thing
21:42 < Namegduf> So my muscle memory hated it
21:42 < nsf> I don't know, I used 2k7 only one and I liked it
21:43 < nsf> once*
21:43 < aiju> i used 2k7 only a few times and i really hated it
21:43 < Namegduf> I couldn't find anything.
21:43 < twolfe18> microsoft word is a good _word processor_, which is
something i have no use for
21:43 < aiju> maybe just because i'm used to 2k
21:43 < Namegduf> It was better but I think saying anyone can find anything
in it is a bit much
21:43 < twolfe18> microsoft excel is a shitty _data analysis tool_, which i
also have no use for
21:43 < Namegduf> I prefer Google Docs to MS Word
21:43 < Namegduf> I don't use anything else
21:43 < mdxi> no, excel is a DATABASE which you can EMAIL TO OTHER PEOPLE
21:43 < aiju> i prefer vi to Google Docs
21:44 < Namegduf> Vim doesn't do the same job.
21:44 < Eridius> Pages?
21:44 < twolfe18> if you do anything harder than CSVs in excel, you are
doing it wrong
21:44 < nsf> lol, tcl/tk rocks
21:44 < twolfe18> if you do anything simpler than CSVs in excel, you are
doing it worng
21:44 < Namegduf> Can we at least all agree that OpenOffice is awful?
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21:44 < twolfe18> yes
21:44 < nsf> Namegduf: yes
21:44 < aiju> twolfe18: excel has its uses
21:44 < twolfe18> aiju: such as?
21:45 < aiju> financial stuff
21:45 < aiju> medium scale calculations
21:45 < nsf> excel is nice for inventing formulas (e.g.  for a game)
21:45 < twolfe18> what is meant by "financial stuff"?
21:45 < nsf> you can quickly try different combinations, etc.
21:45 < aiju> keeping track of money
21:46 < twolfe18> so are text files
21:46 < nsf> and it's nice for doing statistics homework :)
21:46 < aiju> you can do a variety of nice things with excel, you should
just keep in mind that it doesn't scale
21:46 < twolfe18> OH GAWD
21:46 < twolfe18> stats in excel is crime
21:46 < twolfe18> use R or matlab or stata or paper
21:46 < aiju> hahahahahahaha matlab
21:46 < nsf> :\
21:46 < twolfe18> i dont use it, but excel...
21:47 < aiju> matlab syntax makes me want to kill people
21:47 < |Craig|> matlab made me hurt.  The syntax........
21:47 < skelterjohn> matlab is on my list
21:47 < |Craig|> sage is so much nicer
21:47 < twolfe18> you want goofy and awesome syntax, use R
21:47 < skelterjohn> on my list is matlab, javascript, perl, R
21:47 < aiju> skelterjohn: things to be killed?
21:47 < skelterjohn> haskell, any CAML
21:47 < skelterjohn> languages i will never learn
21:48 < skelterjohn> any ML, i mean
21:48 < aiju> i use K, gnumeric and mathematica whenever i have some data to
analyze
21:48 < aiju> depending what suits best
21:48 < skelterjohn> those are not noteworthy enough to make my list, but i
still won't learn them
21:48 < Namegduf> I don't know Haskell, which is a problem because I use
XMonad
21:48 < fenicks> google spreadsheet use javascript, very intuitive
21:49 < Namegduf> My config apparantly works, though
21:49 < aiju> Namegduf: haha same for me
21:49 < twolfe18> fenicks: is there a way to do javascript+google
spreadsheets in an integrated fashion?
21:50 < Namegduf> JavaScript isn't a thing you learn, anyway
21:50 < Namegduf> You more just write it and if it works you ship it
21:50 < aiju> javascript is a thing you hate
21:50 < aiju> i don't know how people write large scale javascript apps
21:50 < aiju> probably like the pyramids: brute force with millions of
slaves
21:51 < aiju> i wrote a 1.4 KLOC javascript app
(http://aiju.phicode.de/pdp11) and i spent hours and days searching for TYPOS
21:51 < Namegduf> XD
21:51 < aiju> i have some theory
21:51 < adg> i worked on a javascript codebase with >500k lines
21:51 < adg> yes, you read that correctly.
21:52 < Namegduf> Wow.
21:52 < nsf> adg: omg
21:52 < aiju> basically you really get used to the pitfalls of a language
21:52 < nsf> what was that?
21:52 < Namegduf> Were there any static analysis tools you used?
21:52 < aiju> that's why, if you ask anyone, "those errors are not relevant"
21:52 < adg> the Google Closure Compiler helped
21:52 < aiju> hahaha
21:52 < aiju> the google closure compiler
21:52 < adg> ?
21:52 < adg> it's a real thing
21:52 < aiju> didn't it take DAYS for it to parse?
21:52 < aiju> i know
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21:52 < nsf> 500k, omg
21:53 < aiju> ./closure --warning_level debug --input_file foo.js
--input_file ...
21:53 < nsf> it's really BIG
21:53 < aiju> i love that input syntax
21:53 < aiju> it's so concise!
21:53 < nsf> I hate mixing underscores and dashse
21:53 < nsf> --warning-level <- what's wrong with that?
21:53 < nsf> :(
21:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/olNhiG by [Adam Langley] in
go/src/pkg/crypto/tls/ -- crypto/tls: make protocol negotiation failure fatal
21:53 < aiju> nsf: it's fucking long
21:54 < aiju> -v
21:54 < aiju> also you shouldn't need to specify a flag to have a compiler
issue ERRORS
21:55 < nsf> I like long flags
21:55 < aiju> the funniest you can do in javascript
21:55 < aiju> var undefined = 0;
21:55 < nsf> don't know why
21:55 < aiju> that's legal
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21:56 < aiju> nsf: i'd say there are some sensible uses
21:56 < aiju> but --warning_level verbose is just stupid
21:56 < nsf> well, actually developer should sort long/short flags by a
frequency of usage
21:56 < fenicks> twolfe18: integrated in other application ?
21:57 < aiju> and it's stupid with tools like ls
21:58 < aiju> --dereference-command-line-symlink-to-dir hahahaha
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22:03 < dario_> if i cannot have pointer receivers for methods needed to
satisfy an interface, how can i use such a method to change the receiver object at
all ?
22:03 < Namegduf> You can.
22:03 < Namegduf> It just becomes the pointer that satisfies the interface,
not the type itself.
22:03 < aiju> dario_: you need to use a pointer for the interface
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22:03 < Namegduf> So assign &x to the interface instead of x
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22:04 < dario_> k
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22:55 < plexdev> http://is.gd/Q1kLwh by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/devel/ --
doc: fix release notes anchor tag
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23:02 < DeedleFake> Hi. I was wondering: Is there an easy way to convert
between an interface{} and an unsafe.Pointer?
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23:14 < DeedleFake> Hello?
23:15 < kingdon> is anyone interested in GNU/kFreeBSD build fixes?
23:15 < kingdon> it was just a few things for accepting the strange uname
and translating it to "freebsd"
23:16 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Quit:
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23:16 < kingdon> for GOOS and NAME in a few places where it was not handled
right...  that and some tests that need to be tweaked or disabled
23:17 < DeedleFake> I'm trying to make a Go wrapper for a C function that
takes a function pointer.  It's not working; I keep getting 'SIGNONE: no trap'.
Any tips?
23:17 < kingdon> maybe i should get commit access?  i'm not sure how this
works, if there is a mob commit review process or a patch pig like exherbo
23:18 < fluffle> kingdon: http://golang.org/doc/contribute.html
23:19 < kingdon> so then, mercurial does handle this issue gracefully...
23:19 < kingdon> code-login
23:19 < kingdon> cool
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23:48 < skelterjohn> evening
23:48 < skelterjohn> niemeyer: did you see my note in golang-dev?
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 16 00:00:22 2011