--- Log opened Thu Feb 17 00:00:29 2011
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01:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/sCqhH9 by [Alex Brainman] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- net: fix windows build
01:11 < plexdev> http://is.gd/OmIDDo by [Alex Brainman] in
go/src/pkg/syscall/ -- syscall: fix windows SetFileAttributes
01:14 < rm445> hey guys, I was wondering about something today, to do with
the debate (if there is one) about garbage-collected versus manually-managed
languages.
01:14 < rm445> To allow manual memory management in Go, if it were required
for some reason, would it be sufficient to write a *de*-allocator ('free')?
01:15 < rm445> What I'm asking is, if you wanted to turn off the garbage
collector, could you just let allocation proceed as normal but provide a way for
the programer to manually collect things?
01:16 < rm445> (I'm not saying I want to do this, just asking if it makes
sense given the language semantics)
01:16 < KirkMcDonald> A manual "delete" would imply the ability to leave
behind dangling references.
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01:17 < rm445> go on
01:17 < KirkMcDonald> ...  that's it.
01:18 < KirkMcDonald> Say you have two pointers to the same thing: x :=
new(S); y := x
01:18 < rm445> sorry :-) I mean, do you just mean that it would become
possible to leak memory (it sure would) or that delete couldn't work in Go?
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01:18 < KirkMcDonald> At the very least, you'd probably have to forbid it as
long as the GC is in use.
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01:19 < KirkMcDonald> Mind, this is in contrast to D, which has both a GC
and "delete".
01:20 < KirkMcDonald> But this is only because D's GC is conservative and
fairly stupid.
01:20 < KirkMcDonald> And Go's, I gather, aspires to be smarter.
01:21 < skelterjohn> I wonder if, for instance, C's free() would work.
doesn't something that is free()d have to be malloc()d first?  does go's new()
function use malloc?
01:21 < fzzbt> i never remember what conservative GC means, tough i even
wrote a paper on GCs.
01:21 < skelterjohn> and you can disable the gc, right now
01:22 < skelterjohn> you'd never be able to run the GC again, though
01:22 < skelterjohn> and if you make sys calls, spawn goroutines, use
channels...
01:22 < skelterjohn> they'd probably all leak memory that you couldn't get a
hold of to free
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01:26 < rm445> sounds very plausible
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01:36 < skelterjohn> i've been thinking of a way to do GUI apps that maybe
someone here would have an opinion on
01:37 < skelterjohn> the basic idea is that a basic GUI component would be a
particular service, served by http and drawn by javascript/html5 magic
01:37 * exch is making moderate progress on the 'website with embedded webserver
as UI'
01:37 < skelterjohn> ah
01:37 < skelterjohn> yes, exch what you suggested inspired what i'm thinking
about
01:37 < skelterjohn> but it's a bit more
01:37 < exch> it works.  i'm just not very useful with jquery yet
01:38 < skelterjohn> here is the use-case that i think makes this an
interesting idea
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01:38 < skelterjohn> let's say you are writing a go ide, and you want to
contain in your app an editor field
01:38 < skelterjohn> seems reasonable
01:39 < skelterjohn> but someone else wrote a great editor for go source,
colors keywords, etc.
01:39 < skelterjohn> and they serve that editor via http/javascript
01:40 < exch> you want to embed that html bit in your app I take it?
01:40 < skelterjohn> in your app, you set aside some real-estate for the
editor widget, and say, basically, "this area belongs to
exch-editor.com:8082/go-code-editor"
01:40 < skelterjohn> and you send a request containing the initial text
01:40 < skelterjohn> and when the user clicks save, you send another request
to get the text back
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01:40 < skelterjohn> every component would work like this, though often you
might host them yourself rather than going outside
01:41 < exch> mm
01:41 < skelterjohn> but going outside would be seemless
01:41 < exch> basically your app is just a collection of webapps then
01:41 < skelterjohn> yes
01:41 < exch> Ideally they wuold all ahdere to the same type of API
01:41 < skelterjohn> and under the hood we'd make it easy for them to
communicate via channels or something
01:42 < skelterjohn> a nice separation of model-view-controller
01:42 < exch> Not sure if that really is very practical, but worth a try I
guess
01:42 < skelterjohn> i'm not sure it is, either
01:43 < skelterjohn> but that's what i'm thinking about
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01:44 < exch> As far as the API goes, a json based REST api would serve this
purpose well.  The minimal bits you would need are the ability to trtrieve a list
of 'events' that a webapp can respond to, In order to deal with its basic
functionality.  It's up to your app to handle those events and make sure the
appropriate data is sent back and forth at the right times
01:45 < exch> For a text editor, I suppose that would be the ability to
get/set the actual text.  Most of the visual aspects will be javascript client
code, which you should be able to access directly through the component that
displays the webcontent
01:46 < exch> No need to make additional server calls for that
01:46 < skelterjohn> right
01:46 < skelterjohn> what is REST
01:46 < skelterjohn> i actually know very little about web dev technologies
01:47 < exch> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_State_Transfer
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01:50 < skelterjohn> exch: is the stuff you've been working on public?
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01:51 < exch> more or less.  It's an outdated version.  I've changed some
bits around lately, but haven't gotten it into a commitable state yet
01:52 < exch> https://github.com/jteeuwen/webapp this is all /very/
experimental
01:52 < skelterjohn> predates the updates to the exec api :) don't worry
about it
01:54 < exch> this is the only os.ForkExec call
https://github.com/jteeuwen/webapp/blob/master/base/proc/browser.go#L34
02:00 < skelterjohn> http://pastebin.com/inPwnCZa
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02:01 < exch> are you using linux?  Cos the browser discovery code is only
implemented for linux atm
02:01 < exch> https://github.com/jteeuwen/webapp/tree/master/base/proc
02:02 < exch> the ones for windows/freebsd/darwin are empty
02:03 < exch> It'll work if you set the BROWSER env var to a full browser
path.  like /usr/bin/chromium
02:04 < exch> I've found that discovering someone's default webbrowser is
definitely a non trivial exercise :s
02:05 < skelterjohn> not linux - os x
02:05 < skelterjohn> aha
02:06 < skelterjohn> I tried that...still says the same thing
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02:09 < exch> change base/proc/darwin.go to this http://pastie.org/1573006
02:11 < skelterjohn> "fork/exec /Applications/Google Chrome.app/: permission
denied"
02:11 < skelterjohn> :\
02:11 < exch> :s
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02:11 < exch> I have no experience with macos.  That's why the code for
darwin was not specified so far
02:12 < skelterjohn> a serve-and-observe package that works nicely might be
a nice addition to the core library
02:13 < skelterjohn> ah, .app files are directories
02:13 < exch> ah
02:15 < skelterjohn> got something working...
02:15 < skelterjohn> "there is nothing to get started with, really" :)
02:15 < exch> yay :)
02:16 < skelterjohn> only works if i quit chrome first
02:16 < exch> odd
02:16 < exch> It works fine on linux.  at least so far
02:17 < exch> The program used to track the browser PID to see if it could
shut itself down or not.  But that wsa insanely messy and utterly unreliable.
Right now it only launches the default browser.  One would think that's a trivial
thing to do :s
02:18 < skelterjohn> if i run chrome from the cmd line hwen it's already
going, it complains about a profile lock
02:18 < exch> mm I dont have that on linux
02:18 < exch> could that be an OSX specific issue?
02:18 < skelterjohn> no idea
02:19 < skelterjohn> i wonder what os x does hwen i double click an html
file
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02:20 < exch> Hopefully there is a somewhat consistent mechanism for that.
On linux it's a complete shot in the dark
02:20 < exch> xdg-open exists for this purpose, but only a handful of apps
actually use it
02:22 < skelterjohn> i don't know if tracking PIDs is the right approach
02:23 < skelterjohn> if you are running firefox, for example, and already
have it open...
02:23 < exch> yea thats what I discovered to
02:23 < skelterjohn> is it possible to create some temporary html file and
just call open on it?
02:23 < skelterjohn> and embed some tricky javascript to send a close
message
02:23 < exch> I changed it to have the webapp set up a regular
PING/KeepAlive requets to the server
02:24 < exch> Sending only a close message will only work if the browser is
closed in a sensible enough manner for the windoe.close event to be triggered
02:24 < exch> *window.close
02:24 < skelterjohn> that, plus the ping might be good enough
02:24 < skelterjohn> closes cleanly for normal case
02:25 < exch> the PING approach will always work.  if the server does not
receive a PING for a specified timeout, it will assume it can shut down
02:25 < skelterjohn> and in the exceptional case, it will close down after a
little bit
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02:26 < exch> The ping also enables the webapp to keep track of server
status and elegantly handle the display of a status message when the server is
gone for whatever reason
02:26 < |Craig|> skelterjohn: I tried "open http://www.google.com" in my mac
terminal, and it worked
02:26 < skelterjohn> |Craig|: oh that's good.
02:26 < |Craig|> works on html files too I believe
02:26 < skelterjohn> def works on html files
02:27 < |Craig|> I wonder if it works for ftp...
02:27 < |Craig|> it does...
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02:27 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ICroZP by [Andrew Gerrand] in go/doc/devel/ --
doc/devel/release: discuss StartProcess in release notes
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02:32 < skelterjohn> exch: so you should use "/usr/bin/open <url>"
instead of trying to look up what browser to use
02:32 < skelterjohn> "open http://localhost:11000" works
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02:32 < exch> that works for me
02:32 < exch> I'll put it in the darwin code
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02:41 < str1ngs> open should be enough.  /usr/bin should be in your PATH
already
02:42 < exch> afaik, os.StartProcess requires a full, absolute path to the
executable.  Even if it's in the PATH
02:44 < skelterjohn> yes,
02:44 < skelterjohn> you can use exec.LookPath if you don't want to have to
know the path ahead of time
02:46 < str1ngs> thats why I use the exec package
02:47 < str1ngs> goinstall genRun is a good example
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02:52 < skelterjohn> genRun?
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03:02 < skelterjohn> i have no idea how to make a new github repos
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03:05 < exch> there should be a big 'New Repository' button on your
dashboard page
03:05 < mdxi> just click on the "new repository" button, which should be on
your dashboard page (assuming you've logged in), and it actually walks you through
the rest
03:05 < mdxi> jinx :)
03:05 < exch> :)
03:06 < skelterjohn> yeah, i found it
03:06 < skelterjohn> thanks
03:07 < rm445> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDWBJOXs_iI << I found
this video (by adg) very helpful, deals with uploading packages to github and
installing them from there
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05:58 < str1ngs> is there some rule of thumb as to when I should use a
pointer?
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06:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/zU7YHP by [Rob Pike] in
go/src/pkg/runtime/arm/ -- arm runtime: attempt to fix build by adding casp (same
as cas)
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06:44 < taruti> Has anyone implemented semaphores in Go?
06:46 < enferex> you can use a buffered channel
06:47 < plexdev> http://is.gd/iJFoOO by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- Effective
Go: stress that comments are uninterpreted text
06:54 < taruti> enferex: that is kind of problematic in this context (need a
large N)
06:58 < rhencke> runtime.Semacquire and runtime.Semrelease are technically
there but they have big 'do not touch' stickers
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06:59 < taruti> and that doesn't have ops to release/increase by more than
one, oh well I can always write that from scratch
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07:41 < zzing> Good evening.  When I want to get an update using hg pull, hg
update release; and I have a folder 'proj' inside go's folder will it be
clobbered?
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07:59 < str1ngs> zzing: no
08:00 < str1ngs> zzing: do you have and custom code though in the go src
base?
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08:01 < zzing> str1ngs: no
08:03 < zzing> What precisely does it mean that this is creating an array
and slicing it?  s := sum([3]int{1,2,3}[:]) I believe I see the [3]int as defining
a 3 element array and {1,2,3} looks like some kind of initializer, but I am not
sure about the [:]
08:04 < str1ngs> zzing: it wont get clobbered then.
08:05 < zzing> I see it referencing slices as references to the array
08:06 < zzing> So is it a reference or a copy?
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08:07 < str1ngs> zzing: http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html read the
array and slice sections
08:08 < str1ngs> zzing: the [:] is confusing I dont use slices or arrays
that much myself
08:09 < str1ngs> zzing: you could also writ it as [...]int{1,2,3} iircc
08:09 < zzing> That is what the tutorial mentinos
08:09 < zzing> I will just have to come up with something to write in go :p
08:09 < str1ngs> the effective go page is much better reading
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08:11 < zzing> I shall keep that in mind.
08:11 < zzing> Time for sleep now :p
08:11 < zzing> I have a nice circuits class I must attend in the morning
08:13 < str1ngs> Arrays are values.  Assigning one array to another copies
all the elements.
08:13 < str1ngs> In particular, if you pass an array to a function, it will
receive a copy of the array, not a pointer to it.
08:14 < str1ngs> so to answer your question in that case it would be a copy
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08:23 < taruti> What can cause "gopack: bad package import section" in 6c
compiled object file?
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08:35 < taruti> seems reproducible
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09:10 < wrtp> taruti: have you tried rebuilding from scratch?  maybe you've
got a corrupt object file
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09:11 < taruti> wrtp: it appears to be a 6c bug, reproducible with
386-freebsd and amd64-linux but shuffling around data from C to Go helps to make
it go away
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09:21 < wrtp> i could try reproducing it on mac os if you like
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13:28 < rm445> uh guys, anyone seen this with a normal Go package makefile:
13:28 < rm445> 6g -o _go_.6
13:28 < rm445> gc: usage: 6g [flags] file.go...
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13:29 < taruti> rm445: your missing GOFILES
13:29 < taruti> '
13:30 < rm445> thanks.  Duhhh, I had GOFILEs=foo (small 's')
13:30 < rm445> I swear I looked at it like five times and it looked fine :-S
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14:00 < skelterjohn> morning
14:03 < KBme> hai2u2
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14:51 < ondrej> hey
14:51 < ondrej> there's an error in build system where GOROOT_FINAL get's
ignored by runtime library
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14:51 < skelterjohn> never heard about GOROOT_FINAL
14:52 < skelterjohn> what's it for?
14:52 < aiju> it specifies where it will be installed
14:52 < aiju> ondrej: yeah, the build system is full of stupid errors, cross
compiling tends to require sacrifices as well :/
14:54 < ondrej> aiju: ok, I'll just hack around it.
14:54 < ondrej> I'll may post a patch later when I solve the riddle
14:55 < aiju> yeah
14:55 < aiju> or just an issue, even if you don't solve it
14:55 < ondrej> I took over the maintainership of .deb, so I quite need to
solve it :)
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15:01 < wrtp> anyone know how to use hg to find out what files were in a
given directory at a particular revision?
15:01 < wrtp> i want something like hg ls, but that doesn't exist
15:03 < mpl> hmm, you probably can derive that from hg diff.  by removing
from the output everything that is not the filepaths.  but that's awkward.
15:04 < wrtp> yeah, i just did something like that
15:04 < wrtp> but it's not exactly convenient!
15:04 < mpl> hehe, no.
15:04 < wrtp> and it won't work in general
15:05 < mpl> why?
15:05 < wrtp> because it only shows things that changed at that revision,
not things as they were
15:05 < wrtp> if i do hg cat -r rev file, it prints the file as it was then,
whether it changed then or not
15:06 < mpl> oh well, I limit myself to knowing the minimum with hg because
I prefer using git everywhere I can.  :)
15:07 < wrtp> i haven't used git
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15:12 < mpl> I got tired of hg forcing me to commit things I didn't want to
(no partial commits possible at some times) because I work with one big repo with
everything in it.  so I switched to git which is way more lenient in that area,
and never went back.
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15:21 < KBme> why not use update?
15:21 < KBme> hg update -r revision
15:22 < KBme> you can definitely see the tree somehow, i did it
15:22 < KBme> or use archive to get the tree at a revision
15:23 < KBme> ohh, i understand the issu
15:23 < KBme> +e
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15:30 < temoto> If archive works like in git, then yeah: hg archive revision
| tar t
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15:41 < skelterjohn> what's the easiest way for a friend who runs on windows
to get go up?
15:42 < Namegduf> Install VirtualBox.
15:42 < Namegduf> Get a Debian/Ubuntu ISO.
15:42 < Namegduf> Install Linux.
15:42 < Namegduf> See Linux installation instructions.  :P
15:43 < skelterjohn> probably right, actually
15:43 < lekernel> doesn't work with cygwin?
15:44 < Namegduf> Well, you might get a Windows installation slightly easire
15:44 < Namegduf> But with the incomplete bits, I don't think that'd be
easier for dev in the long run
15:45 < skelterjohn> he's the kind of guy who might already have a virtual
linux machine working, anyway
15:45 < aiju> get real *nix machine
15:45 < Namegduf> And I assume the real goal is the easiest way to develop
with it rather than to just get something counting as an installation.
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15:45 < skelterjohn> aiju: yes, because that's the path of least resistance
15:45 < skelterjohn> i want to show someone a project, so he has to get a
new computer
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15:46 < aiju> it's the best option in the long run
15:46 < lekernel> yeah, windows sucks!  ;-)
15:46 < skelterjohn> ok, fan club
15:47 < Namegduf> As a completely unbiased person I would like to say that
Windows is useless and everyone should install over it with Debian Linux
15:47 < Namegduf> <cue switching to distro wars>
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15:48 < Namegduf> I wonder about a Go VMWare appliance.
15:48 < Namegduf> I mean, it's a bit overkill
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15:49 < lekernel> debian?  with their ultra-conservative package acceptance
policy, they don't really address the main flaws of open source software which are
lack of or crippled functionality and lack of domain specific tools ;-)
15:49 < aiju> the main flaws of open source software are overengineering
15:50 < aiju> and TOO MUCH functionality
15:50 < Namegduf> s/open source //
15:50 < lekernel> hehe
15:50 < aiju> there is an unlink implementation shorter than the longest ls
option!
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15:51 < skelterjohn> awesome.
15:52 < Namegduf> Serious OO fans scare me.  :(
15:52 < aiju> serious xml fans scare me
15:52 < exch> serious fans scare me
15:52 < skelterjohn> I just realized I made a git repo for something I'm
calling "serve and observe", and it's labeled soa.
15:52 < skelterjohn> dammit.
15:52 < aiju> haha
15:53 < aiju> skelterjohn: i have some projects with such typos
15:53 < Namegduf> The people who genuinely believe that trivial systems
should be designed with huge amounts of abstraction for the smallest units of
functionality.
15:53 < exch> lol, yea I was about to make a note on that.  'soa' is the
Dutch abbreviation for an STD :p
15:54 < Namegduf> I've seen some Java code which worked by having an
abstract base class inherited by another class adding one method inherited by
another class adding another method inherited by another class adding another
method...
15:54 < exch> O_o
15:54 < Namegduf> It was network code and it used UDP and it completely fell
apart when the data got too big to fit in a single packet.
15:54 < skelterjohn> is there an easy way for me to rename it?
15:54 < exch> "yay, we can has inheritance, so lets use to absurdity!11"
15:54 < Namegduf> And used direct printing to stdout in place of letting the
user do error handling
15:55 < Namegduf> Or was it stderr
15:55 < Namegduf> Doesn't matter ayway.
15:55 < Namegduf> *anyway
15:55 < aiju> super-reliable software: write error message to log message,
carry on
15:55 < aiju> *log file
15:55 < Namegduf> It was insanely horrible and someone called them on it and
they wrote back with an insane justification of how the person complaining just
didn't understand how to design software.
15:55 < zozoR> if you get 10 errors per second = big log file :D
15:56 < Namegduf> And that's when I realised that everyone in software
engineering academia was a fraud.
15:56 < skelterjohn> sounds like software that no one will use
15:56 < skelterjohn> everyone?  that's a bit harsh
15:58 < Namegduf> Maybe, it could be that the people who aren't insane are
ignored by the people who pretend OO is the only acceptable way for a business to
design software.
15:58 < Namegduf> I once heard another guy claim that OO made libraries
possible.
15:58 < exch> skelterjohn: you can rename a repository by going to the
"Admin" section of said repository
15:58 < skelterjohn> exch: thanks
15:58 < exch> should be a big button for it at the top-right of the page of
the repo
15:59 < jumzi> Namegduf: I've heard a guy claim OO made life possible
15:59 < aiju> i've heard a guy claim static linking links in whole libraries
15:59 < Namegduf> jumzi: Really?  Because I'm serious and the guy in
question was someone in a university CS department
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16:00 < aiju> you still aren't used to jumzi's jokes?
16:00 < Namegduf> Apparantly not!
16:02 < mdxi> it's all just Sturgeon's Law and the Pareto Principle, if you
want to be cynical about it (and i often do)
16:03 < Namegduf> I don't trust any field in which it's possible to be that
incompetent and not be immediately laughed out of it.
16:03 < Namegduf> Then again there are a lot of bad programmers out there
still...
16:03 * exch raises hand
16:03 < exch> I exist to keep the rest on their toes!
16:04 < exch> There must be balance in the universe.  For every decent
programmer, there should be a shitty one.
16:04 < jumzi> exch: If only that where true
16:05 < jumzi> life wouldn't be so bad
16:07 < zozoR> wat defines a bad programmer?
16:07 < zozoR> :D
16:08 < exch> someone like Namegduf described
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16:15 < mdxi> not caring.  that's what makes a bad anything.  so long as you
care, you'll work to improve.
16:15 < exch> good point
16:16 < jumzi> yep, mdxi pretty much summed it up
16:16 < aiju> or care too much
16:17 < jumzi> Nah, thats not applicable
16:17 < skelterjohn> if you care about the wrong thing
16:17 < jumzi> suppose you meanth over-engineering
16:17 < skelterjohn> for instance, you care about making a beautiful object
hierarchy
16:17 < aiju> or care about doing TEH RIGHT THING
16:17 < skelterjohn> but not about making your software efficienct
16:17 < aiju> or care about following TEH STANDARD
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16:18 < jumzi> Well tbh, if you care, you should learn these things
eventually
16:20 < Namegduf> Plenty of people "care" but are utterly convinced they are
right
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16:21 < Namegduf> And that the huge amounts of overengineering provide them
with benefits and are the only way to make software suitable for a business to
rely on
16:21 < Namegduf> Which is odd, really, because you'd think people who think
about businesses would know how to do a cost/benefit analysis.
16:22 < Namegduf> Or at least the general principle of one.
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16:35 < mpl> otoh, overcomplicating things can mean job security, and create
employment (C++ anyone?) ;)
16:35 < Namegduf> Haha.
16:35 < exch> security through obscurity of a different kind :p
16:35 < mpl> that's when you care about the life standard of your fellow
programmers
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16:38 < plexdev> http://is.gd/gZee2q by [Andrew Gerrand] in
go/misc/dashboard/godashboard/ -- misc/dashboard: notify golang-dev on build
failure
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17:26 < homa_rano> are there any rules/ethics about different algorithms in
test/bench?
17:26 < homa_rano> I have an alternative pidigits that is faster than gcc
17:26 < homa_rano> (by using a different algorithm than the c version)
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18:45 < skelterjohn> what's the easiest way to take a URL, connect to it,
and read the response?
18:45 < skelterjohn> is there something in the http package, or is that just
server side?
18:45 < taruti> http.Get
18:46 < skelterjohn> thanks
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18:56 < KirkMcDonald> http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/428100/9d3311d20cd0ea12/
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19:58 < skelterjohn> anyone here use web.go?
19:58 < skelterjohn> and knows if web.Get etc are thread-safe?
20:00 < str1ngs> skelterjohn: you can check the code.  web.go is not that
large.
20:00 < skelterjohn> i did, and it didn't look like it was threadsafe
20:00 < skelterjohn> just wanted to know if anyone else had dealt with this
issue
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20:03 < str1ngs> skelterjohn: http://blog.golang.org/2010_07_01_archive.html
might help
20:03 < skelterjohn> well, i just wrapped the methods with a mutex, that
works
20:04 < skelterjohn> um.  not sure how that link is relevant, but thanks
20:05 < str1ngs> becaue the go way is use go channels :P
20:05 < Namegduf> The Go way is to structure your program so things are
owned by one thing at once
20:05 < Namegduf> Doesn't mean it's always practical or the simplest
20:06 < skelterjohn> http://pastebin.com/xhCbGSqL go enough for you?  =p
20:07 < str1ngs> skelterjohn: looks good.  but I dont use channels enough
someone else might be more qualified
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20:08 < skelterjohn> what i did is idiomatic.  i wasn't asking about how to
write threadsafe code so much as for someone with web.go experience
20:08 < aiju> mutexes are not idiomatic go
20:09 < str1ngs> ^ what I was trying to say
20:09 < skelterjohn> until web.go is written so that you send it listeners
on a channel, this will have to do
20:10 < exch> Not being idiomatic doesn't necessarily make it wrong :)
20:10 < Namegduf> I strongly question the idea that having a goroutine to
wrap a single object is more idiomatic than a mutex
20:10 < Namegduf> If that were the case, then all code in Go would use
goroutines because you can do anything you can do with a mutex that way
20:10 < Namegduf> And mutexes are used pretty healthily through the stdlib
20:11 < Namegduf> I think that'd be application of a principle to the point
of absurdity, or at leasy inadvisability
20:11 < skelterjohn> kind of like OOP
20:12 < Namegduf> Not saying mutexes aren't a code smell, though
20:12 < aiju> Go is supposed to be a CSP language
20:12 < Namegduf> I use them in a lot of places but keep them package-local.
20:12 < Namegduf> It lets me provide methods which are inherently thread
safe to the outside world efficiently.
20:14 < aiju> i wonder whether one could employ the synthesis approach in an
actual application
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20:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/YbSa2e by [Albert Strasheim] in
go/src/pkg/crypto/rand/ -- crypto/rand: Added read buffer to speed up requests for
small amounts of bytes.
20:31 < skelterjohn> exch: I've made some progress with this GUI/server
thing
20:32 < skelterjohn> every widget gets an ID, and then registers listeners
at /<id>/Recv and /<id>/Send, which get translated into channels in
the code
20:32 < skelterjohn> so widgets within the app can communicate with each
other via these channels, and also javascript code on the client side can
send/recv to/from them via GET and POST
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20:33 < exch> ah that sounds handy
20:34 < skelterjohn> and you can embed widgets like
http://host/Button/<id>, and it will give you html for a button with that id
20:35 < skelterjohn> i don't know javascript, though :\
20:35 < skelterjohn> but i've got a buddy who does
20:35 < skelterjohn> and...  web.go is pretty sweet
20:36 < exch> web.go is a bit overkill for the purposes of a single-user
desktop app I think
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20:36 < skelterjohn> http looked complicated, web.go looked simple :)
20:36 < exch> But it has some convenient bits you would otherwise have to do
manually
20:37 < aiju> http is the kind of thing which looks simple but is actually
*really* complicated
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20:39 < exch> it's not that bad
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20:41 < aiju> exch: you haven't seen what kind of thing to HTTP header and
they remain valid, i suppose
20:42 < skelterjohn> anyway.  web.go is nice.
20:50 < nsf> uhm..  I want to try to mimic Go's IO lib in C, what do you,
people, think about it?
20:51 < Namegduf> Without goroutines, synchronous I/O is fairly limited
20:52 < nsf> well, even before I saw Go, I had this idea:
http://pastie.org/1576223
20:52 < nsf> and Go's IO kind of reminds me this thing
20:52 < nsf> I just thought about extending it
20:52 < Namegduf> Not sure it's very useful without a way to poll multiple
readers/writers
20:53 < Namegduf> But it is pretty
20:53 < nsf> but things like buffering, compressing will work for sure
20:54 < Namegduf> Sure, so long as you're doing synchronous I/O.
20:54 < nsf> well, I guess I'll try it someday
20:55 < aiju> they added inline to C?
20:55 < nsf> in C99, yes
20:55 < aiju> omg
20:55 < aiju> the amount of cruft in C99 is incredible
20:55 < nsf> inlining is a very important optimization
20:56 < aiju> so is registerization
20:56 < aiju> yet there is a reason no one writes register all over his code
20:56 < nsf> and without proper LTO it cannot be done other than that way
20:56 < jumzi> aiju: You've fixed fossil yet?
20:56 < aiju> jumzi: could you shut up about this?
20:56 < skelterjohn> lol
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20:57 < jumzi> inline is an important optimization my ass
20:58 < jumzi> but its used anyway so
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21:00 < aiju> it's almost as bad as const
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21:05 < rm445> C does like to get extra keywords that may or may not mean
anything, doesn't it :-)
21:05 < nsf> C has a lot of history in it
21:06 < zozoR> C *IS* ..  fixed
21:06 < aiju> except that historic C lacks most cruft
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21:06 < aiju> not as much history as people trying to "extend" it and
failing miserably
21:06 < nsf> for example 'struct whatever' was here before typedefs were
introduced..  and actually the grammar wasn't context-sensitive
21:07 < aiju> C structs used to be a lot different
21:07 < nsf> now most people use typedefs with structs like a single
construction
21:07 < nsf> although kernel people don't
21:07 < aiju> they was just one giant namespace for all struct members
21:07 < nsf> linus doesn't allow :)
21:07 < nsf> aiju: hehe, that too, but I didn't know that until recently
21:07 < kimelto> I like to keep the struct or enum keyword, its clearer
imho.
21:07 < aiju> you could even use structure members on integers
21:08 < aiju> i find that the struct keyword all over the place is terribly
ugly
21:08 < aiju> 22:09 < nsf> although kernel people don't
21:08 < aiju> Plan 9 is full of it, but that's not a real kernel, i suppose
21:08 < nsf> full of what?
21:08 < nsf> struct keyword?
21:08 < aiju> typedef struct foo foo;
21:08 < nsf> ah
21:08 < nsf> all C apps are full of it
21:09 < nsf> except linux kernel, git, etc (everything where linus torvalds
was)
21:09 < nsf> he sees some sense in a lack of typedefs
21:09 < nsf> even though I don't use them as well, I have no clear idea why
21:10 < nsf> I guess simply because I don't like NamesLikeThat
21:10 < aiju> like in Go?
21:10 < nsf> and write a lot of stuff like this: struct shader *shader;
21:10 < nsf> etc.
21:10 < nsf> aiju: yes
21:10 < rm445> Whenever I think about programming interfaces, I like to
think how the one shining paragon of object-oriented programming does things.  I
refer of course to the C standard library's FILE * interface.
21:10 < rm445> The Right Way is to hide the implementation, hide the struct
nature, but not hide the pointer nature.
21:10 < nsf> well, I didn't like NamesWithThisStyle a lot
21:10 < nsf> now I don't really care
21:11 < aiju> i prefer them over names_with_this_style
21:11 < aiju> but it's all bikeshed
21:11 < KirkMcDonald> rm445: I usually think of Python's C API, which is
broadly similar.
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21:11 < nsf> aiju: yes, now I simply just use whatever other project uses
21:11 < aiju> in C i tend to write LikeThis for structs and likethis for
functions
21:11 < nsf> but if it's my own
21:11 < nsf> I use names_like_that
21:12 < nsf> but I'm not sure about type names
21:12 < nsf> glib kind of style I guess is my future
21:12 < nsf> TypesLikeThis and functions_like_this
21:12 < aiju> hahaha glib
21:12 < aiju> glib style is
21:12 < KirkMcDonald> Clearly the correct C style is names_like_this and
structs_like_this_t.
21:12 < aiju> #define GLIB_FOOBAR(x, y, z) glib_barfoo_bar(x, z, y, NULL)
21:13 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: I think one of the standards (POSIX maybe) says
that it owns all _t type names :)
21:13 < aiju> _t is infinitely stupid
21:14 < nsf> _t is fin
21:14 < aiju> correct C style is obviously nmslkts and struct ths
21:14 < kimelto> definitely
21:14 < nsf> is fine*
21:14 < nsf> I do use it actually :)
21:14 < kimelto> you should not.
21:14 < kimelto> :)
21:14 < aiju> time_t and size_t are not *that* bad
21:14 < aiju> but uint32_t my ass
21:14 < kimelto> why?
21:14 < nsf> https://github.com/nsf/lib99/blob/master/linear_math.h
21:15 < aiju> might be just me getting accostumed to them :P
21:15 < nsf> my C math lib is full of it
21:15 < skelterjohn> time_t is the type for things that are times
21:15 < skelterjohn> size_t is the type for things that are sizes
21:15 < zozoR> why does C has time_t when its just an unsigned int ...
21:15 < skelterjohn> uint32_t is the type for things that are uint32?  just
call them uint32
21:15 < aiju> time_t is uint64 on some machines
21:15 < zozoR> does it really matter : |
21:15 < nsf> it's unsigned long :)
21:15 < skelterjohn> it could be the same everywhere, but the type time_t
conveys meaning: "this is a time"
21:15 < kimelto> zozoR: so it is easier to change the type when we are going
to overflow the int
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21:16 < aiju> nsf: dmr is going to kill you for those macros
21:16 < nsf> aiju: :)
21:16 < zozoR> well maybe, in my head it just makes alot more sense to call
it what it is
21:17 < Namegduf> zozoR: Yes, it does matter.
21:17 < Namegduf> Since a 32bit time_t is approaching its limit
21:18 < skelterjohn> "what it is" is a time
21:18 < nsf> in 2038?
21:18 < zozoR> since a 32bit int is approaching its limit for representing
time
21:18 < nsf> we will be all dead
21:18 < nsf> >_<
21:18 < skelterjohn> lol
21:18 < aiju> the world ends next year
21:18 < aiju> fucktards
21:18 < zozoR> 2012?  :P
21:18 < zozoR> spiritists are going batshit about 2012 : |
21:18 < skelterjohn> because some aztec stone carver's arm got tired when he
reached 2012, and the calendar stops there
21:19 < aiju> skelterjohn: not even that
21:19 < aiju> it's just the end of a PERIOD in the calendar
21:19 < Namegduf> It was just their version of a millenium.
21:19 < zozoR> my grandmaster believes all evil people are going to die at
rapid rate sometime in 2012 :D
21:19 < aiju> it's just aztec COBOL software will fail
21:19 < aiju> because they forgot to save that data
21:19 < Namegduf> Hmm
21:19 < nsf> zozoR: he's right
21:19 < nsf> somewhat
21:19 < Namegduf> That could be bad for some bank legacy systems
21:20 < zozoR> nsf, how so?
21:20 < nsf> :D
21:20 < nsf> I won't explain why
21:20 < zozoR> D:
21:20 < nsf> I don't think they are going to die though
21:20 < nsf> but "karma strikes back" will happen, or something like that
21:20 < nsf> probably :D
21:20 < zozoR> true
21:21 < aiju> 22:20 < zozoR> spiritists are going batshit about 2012 :
|
21:21 < aiju> i hope they try ritual suicide
21:21 < zozoR> but he is all like "STUDENTS!  BE HAPPY AND DO SOMETHING YOU
WANT TO DO BEFORE 2012!" :D
21:21 < nsf> lol
21:21 < zozoR> that would be bad, i like my grandmaster ^^
21:21 < nsf> is he an evil grandmaster?
21:22 < nsf> :D
21:22 < zozoR> i think he is made of good : |
21:22 < aiju> grandmaster sounds like a level you reach in nethack
21:22 < zozoR> highest ninja rank in the system then :P
21:22 < aiju> wait, it IS the highest rank in martial arts i think
21:22 < zozoR> he made the school himself, would be stupid to not make
himself grandmaster
21:23 < aiju> the bologna titles are also fun
21:24 < aiju> "master of science" just sounds like from some video game lol
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21:25 < zzing> If there were a build tool to automate things, what would be
the recommended tool?
21:25 < Namegduf> That one.
21:25 < nsf> :)
21:25 < zozoR> Makefile?  :D
21:25 < nsf> I would take one that does all I want
21:25 < nsf> :D
21:26 < zzing> zozoR: There seemed to be some other options so I wanted to
ask.
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21:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/pxtTAb by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/runtime/ --
runtime: descriptive panics for use of nil map
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21:37 < rm445> i had a play with djb redo the other day, it seemed to work
pretty well as a general build tool, but perhaps not ideal for go.
21:38 < rm445> Unless you wanted to write a .do file for every object file,
you'd need to write a script that either scanned go files to find out what package
they were in, or make som assumptions from the directory structure.
21:39 < rm445> (not that doing that is necessarily wrong, the guy in here
who has written a Go build tool does that IIRC)
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21:44 < plexdev> http://is.gd/w4Ir9n by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/net/ --
net: remove comment fragments
21:45 < plexdev> http://is.gd/zMBLRu by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/gc/ -- gc:
interface error message fixes
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21:48 < zzing> I get an error when I try to write: 6g -Ibuild fizzbuzz.go -o
build/fizzbuzz.6 ; it says "open -o: No such file or directory " what would be the
proper way to write this command?
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21:48 < taruti> zzing: 6g -Ibuild -o build/fizzbuzz.6 fizzbuzz.go
21:50 < zzing> Thank you, I now have a makefile that works:
http://pastebin.com/re7i853N
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22:10 < str1ngs> is there a easy way to convert uid to user name?
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22:11 < nsf> str1ngs: just parse /etc/passwd
22:11 < nsf> if you're talking about nix id and user name
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22:12 < str1ngs> I guess I can do.  I was hoping syscall or os could do it
22:13 < nsf> well, maybe, I don't know
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22:14 < str1ngs> I also need to convert FileInfo.Mode to OCTAL
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22:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/3lgZOl by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/json/ --
json: only use alphanumeric tags
22:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/3zZD0E by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/http/ --
http: send full URL in proxy requests
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22:23 < str1ngs> ya!  https://github.com/kless/go-sysuser
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23:48 < plexdev> http://is.gd/wEnWkH by [Nigel Tao] in go/src/pkg/html/ --
html: small documentation fix.
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 18 00:00:29 2011