--- Log opened Sun Feb 27 00:00:29 2011 00:04 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 00:05 -!- s9 [~s9@99.236.110.72] has quit [Quit: goodbye cruel world] 00:12 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.156.18] has joined #go-nuts 00:20 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has joined #go-nuts 00:21 -!- _DerHorst_ [~Horst@e176099188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:24 -!- DerHorst [~Horst@e176101047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41 -!- moddus [~moddus@xdslhm092.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:41 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Quit: |Craig|] 00:48 -!- moddus [~moddus@xdslhm092.osnanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:49 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.156.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts 00:51 -!- leczb [~leczb@nat/google/x-bwsslrtpdmfvrkyv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:53 -!- arun_ [~arun@unaffiliated/sindian] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF532C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:56 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF532C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:59 -!- foocraft [~dsc@78.101.228.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:02 -!- arun_ [~arun@i172010.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 01:02 -!- arun_ [~arun@i172010.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 01:02 -!- arun_ [~arun@unaffiliated/sindian] has joined #go-nuts 01:09 -!- moddus [~moddus@xdslhm092.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:15 -!- redmorning [~femto@60.191.99.3] has joined #go-nuts 01:18 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:19 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:19 -!- willdye [~willdye@fern.dsndata.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21 -!- TheSeeker [~n@99-153-250-110.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:21 -!- willdye [~willdye@fern.dsndata.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:25 -!- TheSeeker [~n@99-153-250-110.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:57 -!- arun_ [~arun@unaffiliated/sindian] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has joined #go-nuts 02:25 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@f055197020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 02:27 -!- boscop [~boscop@g227154024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@116.26.131.8] has joined #go-nuts 02:41 -!- _DerHorst_ [~Horst@e176099188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42 -!- perdix [~mkhl@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43 -!- perdix [~mkhl@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #go-nuts 03:02 -!- foocraft [~dsc@dyn-86-36-42-96.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has joined #go-nuts 03:14 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@222.91.81.35] has joined #go-nuts 03:14 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@222.91.81.35] has left #go-nuts [] 03:22 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@f055197020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:28 -!- leczb [~leczb@nat/google/x-jltfekaghiyjbsmc] has joined #go-nuts 03:28 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:34 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #go-nuts 03:38 -!- eikenberry [~jae@ivanova.zhar.net] has quit [Quit: End of line.] 03:54 < exch> Is there any reason '1.27201964951406896425242246173749149171560804184009624861664038' parses as float64 with strconv.Atoi64, but this doesn't: 0.69314718055994530941723212145817656807550013436025525412068000 03:54 < exch> in fact, all the numbers > 1.0 work correctly 03:55 < exch> the 0.xxx ones fail 03:55 < exch> *strconv.Atof64 03:56 -!- karpar [~karpar@112.96.255.5] has joined #go-nuts 04:00 < exch> O.o I put the code in a separate test program. Now it's '2.71828182845904523536028747135266249775724709369995957496696763' which fails 04:01 < exch> oh wait, scratch that 04:04 < exch> duh, fixed it 04:07 -!- karpar [~karpar@112.96.255.5] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 04:17 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17 -!- foocraft [~dsc@dyn-86-36-42-96.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:36 -!- foocraft [~dsc@dyn-86-36-42-96.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has joined #go-nuts 04:48 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.171.212] has joined #go-nuts 05:15 -!- redmorning [~femto@60.191.99.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:25 -!- JusticeFries_ [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:28 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:33 -!- redmorning [~femto@60.191.99.6] has joined #go-nuts 05:46 -!- espeed [~espeed@63.246.231.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 06:38 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: viirya, redmorning, cw, comex 06:44 -!- Netsplit over, joins: viirya, comex, cw 06:50 -!- chressie [~chressie@dreggn.in-ulm.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 06:51 -!- chressie [~chressie@dreggn.in-ulm.de] has joined #go-nuts 06:52 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.171.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:27 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.80.24] has joined #go-nuts 07:40 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has joined #go-nuts 07:40 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-107-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 07:42 -!- aho [~nya@fuld-4d00d0ce.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION] 08:06 -!- edsrzf_ [~kelvan@122-61-221-144.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12 -!- mbernstein [~michael@cpe-70-113-7-72.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:14 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:15 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: JusticeFries] 08:21 < |Craig|> is it safe to read from, write to, and possibly close a net.Conn from different go routines at the same time? (one for writing, one for reading, either may close) 08:24 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has joined #go-nuts 08:25 -!- ovk [~ovk@78-106-195-77.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:37 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 08:40 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Quit: |Craig|] 08:47 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 08:48 -!- piranha [~piranha@5ED4B890.cm-7-5c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #go-nuts 08:48 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.23.127.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:51 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 09:11 -!- edsrzf_ [~kelvan@122-61-221-144.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #go-nuts 09:16 -!- edsrzf_ [~kelvan@122-61-221-144.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:35 -!- saschpe [~quassel@opensuse/member/saschpe] has joined #go-nuts 09:43 -!- franksalim [~frank@99-123-5-179.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 09:46 -!- saschpe [~quassel@opensuse/member/saschpe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:46 -!- foocraft [~dsc@dyn-86-36-42-96.wv.qatar.cmu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:47 -!- saschpe [~quassel@opensuse/member/saschpe] has joined #go-nuts 09:51 -!- arun_ [~arun@unaffiliated/sindian] has joined #go-nuts 09:57 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-165-208.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-165-208.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:05 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@116.26.131.8] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:22 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:44 -!- DerHorst [~Horst@e176099188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:46 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:46 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 10:46 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-25-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 10:48 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-25-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:49 < ww> is it me or does godoc have problems with symlinks? 10:50 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has joined #go-nuts 10:50 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50 < ww> e.g. ln -s ~/src ~/go/src/pkg/bitbucket.org/ww 10:51 < ww> godoc will find the actual package documentation but they won't show up in the directory listing 10:52 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:53 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-25-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54 -!- Innominate [~sirrobin@cpe-076-182-074-143.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Caught signal 15, Terminated] 10:55 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:55 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-25-45.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:55 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has joined #go-nuts 11:09 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 11:12 -!- Innominate [~sirrobin@cpe-076-182-074-143.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 11:16 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-107-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:18 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 11:27 < ww> and the answer is: it's not just me: http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=1540 11:30 -!- Natch [~natch@c-6dcde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 11:32 -!- Natch| [~natch@c-6dcde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:57 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 12:23 -!- ExtraSpice [XtraSpice@78-62-101-194.static.zebra.lt] has joined #go-nuts 12:35 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has joined #go-nuts 12:37 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 12:42 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 12:42 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:45 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:d9df:8912:9dc5:a4ad] has joined #go-nuts 12:45 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.33.100] has joined #go-nuts 12:46 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@116.26.131.8] has joined #go-nuts 12:49 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #go-nuts 12:59 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 13:19 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:22 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@f055197020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 13:24 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 13:25 -!- vizowl [~risto@109.171.129.62] has joined #go-nuts 13:34 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.33.100] has quit [Quit: wrtp] 13:39 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.91.54] has joined #go-nuts 13:42 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.80.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57 -!- vizowl [~risto@109.171.129.62] has quit [Quit: vizowl] 13:58 -!- bluet [mastensg@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #go-nuts 14:00 < bluet> I'm doing the tutorial and I don't understand this error: http://codepad.org/SXeSQuYM 14:00 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:01 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 14:01 -!- toyoshim_ [~toyoshim@y253149.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:01 -!- toyoshim_ [~toyoshim@y253149.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 14:03 < exch> bluet: &File() is a conversion in Go. It tries to convert the two values to a value of type *File. A struct initializer uses {} instead -> return &File{fd, name} 14:03 -!- mbernstein [~michael@cpe-70-113-7-72.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:03 < exch> the second error indicates you are trying to convert uintptr to os.Error 14:04 < bluet> Ah, I see now. The font makes it hard to tell the difference between () and {}. 14:04 < bluet> Thanks. 14:05 < exch> The second error can be fixed by using os.NewSyscallError("mysyscall", e) 14:07 < bluet> Is the tutorial deprecated, then? 14:10 -!- zozoR2 [~zozoR@56347ac9.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Morten. Desu~] 14:10 < exch> the other occurences of the error return use 'return os.Errno(e)' Not sure whay the Write() method doesnt use that 14:10 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.171.242] has joined #go-nuts 14:10 < exch> Did you copy this code as-is? 14:11 < exch> If so, I would say the original needs some fixing 14:11 < bluet> I typed it in manually. 14:11 < bluet> But I tried copying it verbatim. 14:12 < exch> k. looks like you just missed that bit then :) 14:14 -!- DerHorst [~Horst@e176099188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14 < bluet> That's a relief. 14:15 < rm445> the tutorial (live on golang.org) has {}s on line 17 and os.Errno in the write function. You just typed it wrong 14:15 < bluet> Yup. 14:17 < rm445> As far as I know the tutorial is very far from being deprecated. Sometimes the documentation doesn't quite keep up with the language changes (for example, the Go Course pdfs were out of date for a while) but in general the docs are maintained along with everything else in the Go distribution. 14:17 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-107-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:25 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@222.91.81.35] has joined #go-nuts 14:30 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@222.91.81.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@222.91.81.35] has joined #go-nuts 14:34 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@222.91.81.35] has left #go-nuts [] 14:35 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@116.26.131.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:37 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.171.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:38 -!- Innominate [~sirrobin@cpe-076-182-074-143.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Caught signal 15, Terminated] 14:38 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.171.242] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- Innominate [~sirrobin@cpe-076-182-074-143.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 14:52 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59 < skelterjohn> morning 14:59 < exch> lo 15:04 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:25 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 15:27 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 15:34 -!- iant [~iant@216.239.45.130] has joined #go-nuts 15:34 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 15:48 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.171.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48 -!- saschpe [~quassel@opensuse/member/saschpe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:03 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.33.100] has joined #go-nuts 16:29 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-196-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:48 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:06 -!- sav [~lsd@189001131052.usr.predialnet.com.br] has joined #go-nuts 17:09 -!- sav [~lsd@189001131052.usr.predialnet.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 17:19 -!- DerHorst [~Horst@e176099188.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 17:28 -!- Fish- [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 17:30 -!- maattd [~maattd@esc31-1-78-245-92-71.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35 -!- skejoe [~skejoe@188.114.142.162] has joined #go-nuts 17:51 -!- aho [~nya@fuld-590c71eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:53 -!- TheMue [~TheMue@p5DDF6D82.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:56 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has joined #go-nuts 18:02 < rl> In my quest of grasping what good idiomatic go code looks like, I figured I'd read through some of the go package source code. I don't want to read *all* of it though, so I was wondering if anyone knows whether there are packages in the library which are particularly exemplary 18:04 < exch> Most of them will be 'idiomatic'. I think it will help to just pick a package which deals whatever you are most interested in. Networking, file io, encryption, byte data manipulation, etc 18:15 < rl> way to answer my question :p it's a good point, though 18:17 < jumzi> Well read "Idiomatic code" too ofc, but ye 18:25 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:25 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #go-nuts 18:26 -!- rlab [~Miranda@21-200-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:27 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.160.11] has joined #go-nuts 18:35 < rm445> guys, does anyone know how the unsafe package works? The source is just some type declarations, and what look like function declarations (which I didn't even know existed in Go) 18:36 < Namegduf> It's part of the compiler, I believe. 18:36 < Namegduf> It does things packages can't do without it existing. 18:36 < aiju> yeah 18:36 < rm445> The functions themselves seem to live in the C source of the runtime, named unsafe[middle-dot]function-name 18:36 < aiju> unsafe is pure magic 18:36 < rm445> nodnod, just hoping someone can tell me how it is put together to make the magic happen :-) 18:36 < aiju> rm445: could well be 18:38 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 18:39 < aiju> timeo unsafe et donas ferentem ;P 18:40 < rm445> erudition :-o 18:42 < ww> how *does* one type that middle dot? 18:42 < aiju> change your keyboard layout 18:42 < aiju> i have it on alt gr + , 18:43 < fzzbt> middle dot ? 18:43 -!- werdan7 [~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #go-nuts 18:43 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts 18:43 -!- raylu [raylu@c-24-131-193-106.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:43 < raylu> i can't seem to find the release notes for 2011-02-24 18:44 < fzzbt> i have no alt gr ;_; 18:44 < rm445> fzzbt: it's a unicode character, like a full-stop but half-way up, level with a - 18:44 < aiju> fzzbt: right alt 18:44 < rm445> The Go guys use it in the C source to make it look like C has namespaces 18:44 < aiju> german keyboard has alt gr and i remap my english keyboard to have right alt as alt gr 18:45 < Namegduf> Alt Gr is the right Alt on (some?) English keyboards, too. 18:45 < Namegduf> At least UK ones. 18:45 < fzzbt> US layout has no alt gr. and non-US layouts have stupid mappings for [], {} and () 18:45 < aiju> fzzbt: remap your keyboard man 18:45 < Namegduf> Psh. 18:45 < aiju> i would go crazy if i used standard keyboard layouts 18:45 < ww> didn't know that was legal in c... to use random unicode runes in symbols 18:45 < aiju> no α! 18:45 < aiju> ww: it isn't 18:45 < aiju> ww: the plan 9 compilers (8c etc) allow it nevertheless 18:46 < aiju> plan 9 code has functions μ etc 18:46 < Namegduf> Which means they can use it internally in the Go compiler 18:46 < aiju> i don't see much use for it, actually 18:46 < aiju> it just encourages people to use retarded variable names nobody can type 18:47 < exch> builtin obfuscation ftw 18:47 < ww> well.. ascii is rather anglocentric 18:47 < aiju> imagine reading code with variables like 人々 18:47 < aiju> ww: code should be fucking english 18:47 < bartbes> is that a gate address? 18:47 < bartbes> :P 18:47 < Namegduf> XD 18:47 < exch> :p 18:47 < kimelto> :) 18:48 < ww> aiju: tell that to the olf! 18:48 < aiju> i am really annoyed by people using spanish, german, french etc variable names 18:48 < aiju> and i know two of these languages! 18:48 < kimelto> aiju: I've seen people using #define to redefine C keyword in a language. 18:49 < kimelto> simply awful 18:49 < fzzbt> by any chance, are you from english speaking country, aiju ? 18:49 < aiju> wow 18:49 < aiju> fzzbt: i am german 18:49 < exch> English isnt the best solution either, but it's wide spread unfortunately 18:49 < aiju> and i used english variable ever since i knew just enough english for my variables 18:49 < rl> maybe rob pike just has a thing for unicode, who knows 18:50 < aiju> i don't mind english too much 18:50 * ww has absolutely no problem with variable names in whatever language 18:50 < Namegduf> rl: It's used to namespace things without stepping on legal name characters 18:50 < rl> Namegduf: I was trying to allude to the fact that rob pike co-created UTF8 with Ken Thompson, but yea sure 18:50 < exch> English isnt very difficult for people with european roots as far as language goes. But it's a pain in the ass for anyone else (arabs, asians, etc) 18:51 < ww> east asian languages would be hard for me though... 18:51 < Namegduf> Ah. 18:51 < aiju> just use fucking english and virtual anyone will be able to understand it 18:51 < Namegduf> I don't mind code that's non-English so long as I never have to see it 18:51 < Namegduf> If the development team ever gets past that country it's terrible, though 18:52 < aiju> if you don't speak english, learn it or you'll have no place in science and engineering 18:52 < rl> That's a bit short-sighted though 18:52 < ww> aiju: feeling extremist this evening are we? 18:52 < aiju> haha 18:52 < Namegduf> s/ this evening// 18:52 < Namegduf> :P 18:52 < rl> AFAIK the same used to be true for german a while back, at least to a certain extent -- most of my father's textbooks were in German 18:52 < aiju> no, language barriers are FUCKING ANNOYING 18:52 < Namegduf> You know what I hate? Time zones. 18:52 < ww> Namegduf++ 18:52 < bartbes> we should all speak esperanto and live in GMT 18:53 < |Craig|> daylight savings time is worse 18:53 < rl> C'mon, time zones are nothing compared to DST 18:53 < rl> w0rd!\ 18:53 < ww> all the european languages are basically the same anyways... 18:53 < Namegduf> Agree there. 18:53 < ww> except hungarian 18:53 < rl> ww: And finnish 18:53 < Namegduf> I live in GMT and don't update my clock for DST 18:53 < bartbes> well, DST wouldn't be as bad if it started and ended at the same time everywhere 18:53 < ww> rl: and finnish... and estonian 18:53 < aiju> haha 18:53 < Namegduf> It's pretty bad. 18:54 < aiju> DST is fucking retarded 18:54 < rl> bartbes: it'd still be pretty bad, actually.. 18:54 < ww> just have gofmt pass code through google translate :P 18:54 < bartbes> rl: but not as bad :P 18:54 < aiju> i wouldn't say all european languages are equilvanet 18:54 < aiju> many have either latin or germanic roots but that's it 18:54 < bartbes> all languages use characters, so all languages are the same! 18:55 < Namegduf> They're all just squiggles 18:55 < kimelto> aiju: what about greek? 18:55 < bartbes> though some are too similar, italian and spanish people can talk to each other and understand most of it 18:55 < aiju> 19:54 < ww> aiju: feeling extremist this evening are we? 18:55 < bartbes> or so I've been told 18:55 < rl> aiju: well there's a lot of sharing of words. Knowing one european language makes it easier to learn another one, so I can see where it comes from 18:55 < aiju> funnily enough, i've seen career cancelors saying the same thing 18:55 < ww> <-- hyperbole 18:55 < aiju> kimelto: yeah well, "most" is not all 18:56 < aiju> but there is also slavic in many languages ... 18:56 < jumzi> Wah? It's good that sience and engineering peeps have common language 18:56 < jumzi> FUCK ME if i had to program in Swedish 18:56 < rl> jumzi: I don't think anyone disagrees 18:57 < ww> a very basic knowledge of a slavic, a latin and a germanic language is probably enough to handle european variable names... and if anything is confusing we do have dictionaries... 18:57 < aiju> yeah, fucking liberals 18:57 < jumzi> Altough UTF-8 rules and should be incorporated everywhere, including compilers 18:57 < jumzi> ww: Or a simple ed script? 18:57 < aiju> ww: it's funnily enough to figure out WHICH language this is supposed to be 18:57 < bartbes> ww: imo it should use names in the language best for the target audience 18:58 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.91.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:58 < bartbes> and worldwide that's english 18:58 < kimelto> if you try to translate "stream", "buffer" you generally have funny names :) 18:58 < aiju> "target audience"? 18:58 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.79.107] has joined #go-nuts 18:58 < rl> You know how people translate books.. I'm sure someone somewhere has as a job to translate code 18:58 < bartbes> aiju: you're one of those "nobody ever reads my code, it's mine!" guys? 18:58 < ww> i don't really disagree...just sometimes i tire of seeing english everywhere 18:58 < aiju> MS-DOS-Eingabeaufforderung 18:58 < jumzi> bartbes: Makes the best code 18:58 < aiju> MS-DOS-Stapelverarbeitungsdatei 18:59 < aiju> bartbes: quite the opposite 18:59 < bartbes> aiju: well then, you have a target audience 18:59 < aiju> my variable names are english. full stop 19:00 < rl> The best part is that you can't export variables if you use glyphs that don't have a concept of uppercase for your variable names 19:00 < rl> *export anything 19:00 < jumzi> 1. Can i read my code? 2. does it feel comfortable to work with? --> you're probably set 19:00 < Namegduf> rl: You can put an X in front or something. Suboptimal, though. very. 19:00 < ww> aiju: buffer is actually french, eh 19:00 < Namegduf> *Very. 19:01 < kimelto> ww: no it is not 19:01 < ww> kimelto: it's a bit archaic 19:01 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has joined #go-nuts 19:03 < aiju> stream was originally german, so what? 19:03 < ww> aiju: well english is more or less a northwest european creole. maybe our code should be as well 19:04 < ww> i.e. name things whatever makes sense and don't worry about what language you think you have used 19:04 < rl> name things in whatever way makes sense = use english 19:05 < rl> problem solved 19:05 < kimelto> ww: never heard of it 19:05 < ww> kimelto: i suspect it's actually the same root as bouffer 19:06 < ww> but etymonline says O.Fr buffe, "a blow" 19:06 < ww> rl: what problem/ 19:09 -!- perdix [~mkhl@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.23.127.179] has joined #go-nuts 19:20 -!- rlab [~Miranda@21-200-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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Also someone else will now have to spend their time off working becase they ignore your bugzilla. 21:44 < aiju> all linux versions are fundamentally broken, each one in a different way 21:45 < cenuij> the only thing that is fundamentally broken about Linux, is that it didnt run on Alpha CPU's 21:45 < cenuij> everything else is gravy 21:46 < aiju> things get really funny when you leave the kernel and enter the seventh circle of hell full of dbus and all that crap 21:46 -!- deso_ [~deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:47 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47 < cenuij> dbus is great, it keeps a whole army of terrible c++ drones in work 21:47 < aiju> hahahaha 21:48 < aiju> dbus-send --system --print-reply 21:48 < aiju> --dest="org.freedesktop.Hal" /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer 21:48 < aiju> org.freedesktop.Hal.Device.SystemPowerManagement.Shutdown 21:48 < nsf> :D 21:48 < aiju> what's sudo halt coming to? 21:48 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has joined #go-nuts 21:48 < cenuij> I think i might be able to remove HAL 21:48 < nsf> clearly a java-inspired design 21:48 < cenuij> I will pray to his great noodly goodness 21:48 < aiju> it isn't just HAL, all dbus interfaces are like this and most often worse 21:48 < nsf> and btw, xorg doesn't use HAL anymore afaik 21:48 < aiju> even opensuse is migrating away from HAL 21:48 < cenuij> y, thinkg the fedora guys are cracking it 21:49 < cenuij> openSUSE factory is a ball hair away from no HAL too 21:53 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54 < nsf> archlinux doesn't use hal anymore, afaik 21:54 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:54 < nsf> although I have it installed 21:54 < nsf> for some reason 21:54 < nsf> O_o 21:54 < aiju> our server has hal installed hahaha 21:55 < aiju> the amount of stupid shit on that machine is incredible 21:58 < cenuij> It's likely upgraded systems may have/use HAL 21:58 < cenuij> *shrug* 21:59 -!- franksalim [~frank@99-123-5-179.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:00 -!- plexdev` [~plexdev@arthur.espians.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:02 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:03 -!- plexdev [~plexdev@arthur.espians.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03 -!- chressie [~chressie@dreggn.in-ulm.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03 -!- vsmatck [~smack@64-142-40-6.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03 -!- chressie [~chressie@dreggn.in-ulm.de] has joined #go-nuts 22:04 -!- rlab [~Miranda@21-200-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08 -!- vsmatck [~smack@64-142-40-6.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:09 -!- [Pete_27] [~noname@110-174-103-31.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 22:12 -!- Scorchin [~Scorchin@host109-156-11-12.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:14 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:15 -!- bortzmeyer [~stephane@2a01:e35:8bd9:8bb0:d9df:8912:9dc5:a4ad] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15 -!- Cobi [~Cobi@2002:1828:88fb:0:aede:48ff:febe:ef03] has joined #go-nuts 22:15 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C050.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15 -!- Fish- [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish] 22:16 < SmoothPorcupine> So what do you guys think about exit? 22:18 < SmoothPorcupine> (And is os.Exit the same at C exit?) 22:18 < aiju> unlikely 22:19 < SmoothPorcupine> (In that both immediately terminate and set the exit status.) 22:23 -!- vinisterx [~ryan@74-129-201-27.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:23 -!- ako [~nya@fuld-4d00d200.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:24 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.33.100] has quit [Quit: wrtp] 22:26 -!- aho [~nya@fuld-4d00d169.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-107-215.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:26 -!- [Pete_27] [~noname@110-174-103-31.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #go-nuts 22:27 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.79.107] has quit [Quit: E se abbasso questa leva che succ...] 22:30 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Quit: |Craig|] 22:35 -!- awidegreen [~quassel@c-eacae555.08-2-73746f39.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38 -!- vinisterx [~ryan@74-129-201-27.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 22:49 -!- ExtraSpice [XtraSpice@78-62-101-194.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:50 -!- skejoe [~skejoe@188.114.142.162] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:54 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55 -!- vsayer [~vivek@c-76-102-205-58.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:57 -!- piranha [~piranha@5ED4B890.cm-7-5c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:03 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.188.129] has joined #go-nuts 23:03 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts 23:10 -!- moddus [~moddus@xdsleb108.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:17 < SmoothPorcupine> Okay fine I'll just jump straight to the point. 23:18 < SmoothPorcupine> Why are exceptions bad while exit and goto aren't? 23:20 -!- franksalim [~frank@99-123-5-179.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:23 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:24 < Namegduf> They are? 23:24 < Namegduf> Actually, I have a better answer. 23:25 < Namegduf> "Because the pros and cons of exceptions, when analysed in the context of Go, come out to a net negative, while the others come out to a net positive for inclusion" 23:25 < Namegduf> The specific pros and cons are pretty unrelated to each other. 23:26 < Namegduf> Go kind of has exceptions through panic/recover, anyway, they're just constrained, so as to get most of the pros with much reduced cons. 23:26 < Namegduf> (This kind of "most of the advantages without most of the disadvantages" thing seems to come up a lot when I look at Go, actually...) 23:28 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has joined #go-nuts 23:31 < SmoothPorcupine> Last time I was here someone said something that made me think, "What if adding <X feature> to Go would allow the removal of other features, making Go less complex overall?" 23:32 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:33 < SmoothPorcupine> And it's not, "kind of." Go has exceptions. 23:34 -!- cco3 [~conley@c-69-181-140-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:34 < Namegduf> SmoothPorcupine: Then there might be more pros than cons for that particular example, enumerated and examined, but you'll never know until somone tries to put the argument together. 23:34 < SmoothPorcupine> I'd thought, "If you did exceptions right, you could get rid of defer." 23:34 < SmoothPorcupine> But later I realized defer still had to be there for exit. 23:34 < Namegduf> Also return. 23:35 < SmoothPorcupine> And recently I realized, exit is almost exactly like an exception. 23:36 < SmoothPorcupine> The way it unwinds the entire call stack is the defining feature that makes exceptions exceptions. 23:37 < nickbp> can you stop an exit 23:37 < SmoothPorcupine> No you can get the same functionality with goto return. 23:37 < Namegduf> In that case, I suppose you'd take the phrase "exceptions" in every discussion of exceptions and change it to "traditional exceptions" 23:37 < nickbp> 'you can' doesnt make it a good idea 23:37 < Namegduf> As os.Exit() does not have many of the attributes they have that are relevant to discussion of their pros and cons. 23:37 < SmoothPorcupine> By writing the deferer after return:. 23:38 < SmoothPorcupine> nickbp, doesn't it? 23:38 < SmoothPorcupine> UIsn't that what minimalism is all about? 23:38 < SmoothPorcupine> Isn't* 23:38 < Namegduf> It doesn't and it isn't. 23:38 < nickbp> no 23:39 < nickbp> minimalism is about removing the brakes from your bicycle then killing yourself in a crash 23:40 < Namegduf> This seems like a cup game with definitions rather than an argument. 23:40 < KirkMcDonald> Killing yourself is a feature extraneous to the original specifications. 23:40 < KirkMcDonald> And is therefore not minimal! 23:40 < nickbp> no you see 23:40 < nickbp> killing yourself removes you from existence 23:40 < nickbp> which is the most minimalist action possible 23:41 < Namegduf> Proving something about a word proves nothing about previous usage unless the previous usage included it. 23:41 < Namegduf> It's just a token in protocol, nothing more. 23:41 < nickbp> in this specific instance, the bike analogy is removing your brakes because it makes the bike simpler 23:41 < SmoothPorcupine> My point is that exit is oftena pain for the same reason exceptions are. 23:41 < SmoothPorcupine> often a* 23:41 < nickbp> then simply stopping the bike by inserting your foot into the spokes 23:42 < nickbp> in other words, the lack of the feature makes the workaround more complicated than just including the feature in the first place 23:42 < Namegduf> Exit shares some of the issues, but not all. 23:43 < Namegduf> It also doesn't share many other attributes- it doesn't have its own syntax, it doesn't have a use other than to terminate the program (there's never an expectation of catching), etc. 23:43 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:44 < SmoothPorcupine> Exceptions don't have theri own syntax in Go either. 23:44 < Namegduf> I don't think proving anything about Exit will make a point about traditional exceptions, or panic/recover for that matter. 23:44 < SmoothPorcupine> their* 23:45 < SmoothPorcupine> The pain exceptions cause is the same pain exit causes: "What the hell happened to my flow control?" 23:45 < nickbp> in conclusion, http://www.stephenfry.com/2011/02/27/4d6ae04f2b734/ 23:45 < Namegduf> I don't think proving anything about Exit will make a point about traditional exceptions, or panic/recover for that matter. 23:45 < SmoothPorcupine> I do. 23:45 < Namegduf> Good for you. 23:46 < Namegduf> Why not just make your point with them in the first place? 23:46 < Namegduf> If it's apt and all, that should be straightfoward. 23:47 < Namegduf> Proof by analogy is a horribly messy thing that only works if every aspect of what you're analogising it to that matters matches. 23:47 < SmoothPorcupine> Because the default state of a conversatoin is adversary. 23:47 < Namegduf> It's incorrect by default, usually. 23:47 < SmoothPorcupine> If I jump to the conclusion it is rejected. 23:47 < nickbp> i love analogies like a car likes oil 23:48 < nickbp> the default state of my conversation is non sequitor 23:48 < SmoothPorcupine> What if, instead of os.Exit, we had os.Status. 23:49 < SmoothPorcupine> os.Status would set the exit status, but not unwind the stack. 23:49 < nickbp> how does a parent know that a given function will edit the status 23:49 < nickbp> you end up with a shitty global variable 23:50 < SmoothPorcupine> Globals are just variables attached to a process. 23:50 < Namegduf> Thus, their name, global variable. 23:50 < SmoothPorcupine> The enviroment, working directory, exit status, they're all global in the effect of globals. 23:51 < SmoothPorcupine> But let's put it this way: How does a parent know that a given funciton wont exit the whole damn program? 23:51 < SmoothPorcupine> function* 23:51 < nickbp> yep, and an individual function's succcess/fail status doesnt belong their 23:52 < nickbp> er, there 23:52 < SmoothPorcupine> Maybe. 23:52 < Namegduf> SmoothPorcupine: Generally by convention, os.Exit() is not used in non-trivial programs. 23:52 < SmoothPorcupine> Depends on how you want to write your program. 23:52 < nickbp> dive into pedantery with SmoothPorcupine 23:53 < Namegduf> No, I don't believe convention depends on how you want to write your program. 23:53 < Namegduf> You might defy convention but that's your own problem. 23:53 < SmoothPorcupine> So the only valid use of os.Exit... Is in trivial programs? That could just as easily use os.Status...? 23:54 < SmoothPorcupine> Namegduf, that was @nickbp. 23:54 < Namegduf> It's the only valid use I *know* about. It doesn't mean people can't implement sensible deviations from convention which let them know what's going on, but still use it, in their own projects. 23:54 < Namegduf> It does mean that by default you know functions won't quit because you know they won't use it. 23:54 < Namegduf> Package functions will not call os.Exit 23:55 -!- dshep [~user@24.130.32.125] has joined #go-nuts 23:55 < nickbp> i think having a child function calling exit directly would be equivalent to a child function causing a segfault 23:55 < Namegduf> Same way you know they won't panic. By convention, panics do not escape packages. 23:55 < Namegduf> (Everything in your current package you are presumed to know about) 23:56 < Namegduf> You could break that in your own project if you wanted, and make a safe design, but there is a convention that solves the problem. 23:59 < SmoothPorcupine> Isn't it better to force that principle by design than to leave it to convention? 23:59 < Namegduf> Sure. --- Log closed Mon Feb 28 00:00:29 2011