--- Log opened Tue Mar 01 00:00:29 2011
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01:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/c2Tzm1 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/cmd/goyacc/ --
goyacc: provide -p flag to set prefix for names.
01:58 < yebyen> does anyone know how to get a two-digit year out of (*time)
Format(string)
01:58 < yebyen> if you pass it "02 Jan 06" to mean DD Mon YY
01:59 < yebyen> it just gives me single digit years for 2001-2010
02:00 < yebyen> time.SecondsToLocalTime(unixtime).Format( "02 Jan 06" )
02:00 < yebyen> like this
02:01 < yebyen> and through ToUpper...
02:01 < yebyen> i get dates like 30 MAY 5
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02:02 < yebyen> i think you use an _
02:02 < yebyen> like 02 Jan _6
02:03 < yebyen> well that wasn't it at all
02:07 < yebyen> apparently you can make the leading 0 optional in a day of
month by saying _02
02:07 < yebyen> sorry _2
02:07 < yebyen> but you can't make the leading 0 in year optional
02:08 < yebyen> it is by default optional
02:08 < yebyen> if you are asking for a 2 digit year
02:10 < yebyen> what a futile task!  tracing down a bug that won't really
make a difference again for another 90 years
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02:23 < yebyen> there's a zeroPad and pad function that are based on int
02:23 < yebyen> looks like since year is in int64, nobody cared to write
zeroPad for it
02:23 < yebyen> it's just year%100 and hope you like the looks
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04:26 < |Craig|> can a net.Conn get garbage collected while connected?  If
so, what happens?
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04:27 < skelterjohn> probably times out on the other end
04:28 < |Craig|> I'm getting orderly disconnects on my client when I do
multiple connections to my server, which as far as I can tell does not disconnect
04:29 < skelterjohn> are you holding onto the net.Conn?
04:29 < |Craig|> I think so
04:29 < |Craig|> I make make 40 connections at once, 2 drop and auto
reconnect just fine
04:30 < |Craig|> I think I have a race condition
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04:31 < |Craig|> Dropping connections at those rates is not bad, but I only
call disconnect on one line in the entire server, and that line is not running
04:32 < |Craig|> sometimes I drop one if I connect only 2 at once.
04:35 < |Craig|> I wonder if the issue is a race condition client side, and
I broke it when the server performance changed.
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04:54 < |Craig|> ha, I figured it out!
04:55 < |Craig|> I was starting a go routine with a closure in a loop, bad
idea!
04:56 < |Craig|> the loop variable was getting changed inside the closure by
the loop....
04:56 < |Craig|> by the time my read was over, the variable I read from had
changed
04:56 < Namegduf> Yeah, you need to copy it to a new variable within the
loop, and reference that.
04:57 < Namegduf> (I think that should work?)
04:57 < |Craig|> I just made it not a closure.  More clear that way too
04:57 < |Craig|> and I pass in the needed variable
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04:58 < |Craig|> That was my first real race condition bug in go.  It took a
long time to fix, but not bad considering I'm doing complex stuff and havent done
much concurancy before
05:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/huBlmE by [Rob Pike] in go/src/cmd/goyacc/ --
goyacc: clarify it's package, not binary, that has
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09:29 < jnwhiteh> Namegduf: you can also just pass the loop variable into
the closure as an argument instead
09:30 < Namegduf> jnwhiteh: That too, yeah.
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09:43 < wrtp> jnwhiteh: personally, i prefer the variable copying approach -
it's less code and obvious at the top of the closure what's happening.
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10:05 < jnwhiteh> wrtp: aye
10:05 < jnwhiteh> or explicitly naming the closure and then calling it with
appropriate arguments
10:05 < jnwhiteh> that tends to clean things up
10:11 < wrtp> yes
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10:49 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5stRdt by [Andrew Gerrand] in 2 subdirs of
go/doc/ -- doc: add FAQ about large binaries and stack vs heap allocation
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11:51 < plexdev> http://is.gd/E7TnBK by [David Symonds] in go/src/pkg/http/
-- http: export parseHTTPVersion.
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12:41 < Electro^> i just updated Go through HG...  and now my mongoDB driver
wont work anymore
12:41 < Electro^> those related?
12:41 < Electro^> mongoHandler.go:6: import
/home/electro/go/pkg/linux_amd64/github.com/garyburd/go-mongo.a: not a go object
file
12:42 < Electro^> the file is there, it just wont accept it anymore
12:43 < taruti> Electro^: reinstall packages
12:43 < Electro^> the driver?  or all Go packages?
12:44 < taruti> all probably
12:44 < Electro^> ill try that
12:55 < str1ngs> goinstall -a should fix that iirc
12:56 < Electro^> nope tried that already
12:58 < Electro^> but yes, a complete reinstall of Go and the driver fixed
it
12:58 < Electro^> a complete reinstall of the driver didnt work for us
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13:25 < skelterjohn> Electro^: goinstall -a -clean
13:30 < skelterjohn> just doing -a will invoke make in each of the
libraries, but make will think everything is fine, since the .a and .6 files
already exist
13:30 < skelterjohn> -clean will take care of it.
13:31 < Electro^> but we removed the package for the drivers manually
beforehand
13:31 < Electro^> shouldnt that take care of that?
13:34 < skelterjohn> in $GOROOT/pkg or $GOROOT/src/pkg?
13:34 < skelterjohn> the old .a files are in $GOROOT/pkg
13:34 < skelterjohn> but the old .6 files in are in $GOROOT/src/pkg
13:34 < skelterjohn> if you only remove the .a files, make will just pack
the old .6 files up again
13:35 < skelterjohn> it's a good idea to just run "goinstall -a -clean"
whenever you update go
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14:01 < Electro^> skelterjohn: that makes sense
14:01 < Electro^> thank you
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14:05 < skelterjohn> i've had the very same problem as you :)
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14:34 < zozoR> anyone knows how i can setup go-mode in emacs to include a
smaller font, a splitwindow with bash bash and a black background : |
14:34 < zozoR> or do i have to learn lisp :(
14:34 < taruti> yes
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14:36 < zozoR> taruti, yes to the first or the second?  :D
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14:37 < taruti> just use elisp, it is not that hard
14:38 < skelterjohn> I feel your pain, zozoR
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14:38 < zozoR> nothing is hard, but it takes time to get to know it
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14:40 < skelterjohn> exactly
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14:40 < zozoR> and who wants to learn lisp anyway :D
14:40 < wrtp> lisp is well worth learning
14:40 < zozoR> (people who wants to use emacs -.-)
14:40 < wrtp> ...  just not elisp :-)
14:41 < zozoR> common lisp, elisp, lisp ..  how many are there?
14:42 < taruti> scheme
14:42 < taruti> zozoR: dozens
14:43 < zozoR> many programmers are convinced, that because they made it
through the pain of learning something stupid, everybody else should learn it too,
because its "well worth learning"
14:43 < zozoR> :D
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14:44 < fzzbt> i just find it funny that they named it after speech disorder
14:45 < zozoR> you try to read it without lisping
14:49 < skelterjohn> understanding functional programming is a plus
14:50 < skelterjohn> aside from TAing or taking a class, I've only one ever
had to know lisp.  Well, scheme in this case.  There is an inference engine
written in it, and you express your models in lisp-like syntax
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14:53 < zozoR> yay, background color black
14:53 < zozoR> next step will be making the go mode show white letters where
it used to write black
14:53 < zozoR> : |
14:55 < skelterjohn> lol
14:56 < Electro^> I have some problems understanding interfaces in Go, I
have this function http://garyburd.github.com/go-mongo/pkg/mongo.html#RunCommand
and i want to send this command to the database: "db.main.update({"fileName" :
"test2"}, {$set : {"userName" : ["kingkong", "gynther"]}})".
14:56 < skelterjohn> wouldn't it be easier to just adjust your terminal
colors?  :)
14:56 < Electro^> We've been at this for some time but cannot figure out how
to read the API and use the function to pass commands to the DB.
14:56 < Electro^> I think this is more a problem of us not understanding Go,
than a mongoDB problem though
14:56 < skelterjohn> (looking)
14:57 < Electro^> thank you
14:57 < skelterjohn> so, you have a Conn?
14:57 < Electro^> indeed
14:57 < Electro^> and a namespace
14:58 < skelterjohn> what is db.main.update
14:59 < skelterjohn> is that just a string that you send?
14:59 < Electro^> its mongoDB command, update is the command, db.main is the
collection
14:59 < Electro^> so db.main would be the namespace
15:00 < skelterjohn> what is $set
15:00 < Electro^> err = mongo.SafeInsert(conn, dBCollection, nil,
map[string]interface{}{"fileName": fileInsert}
15:00 < Electro^> is an example of working code using SafeInsert
15:00 < Electro^> $set is a mongoDB command to insert the username entries
into the test2 document
15:01 < skelterjohn> so how can you make a Doc instance out of that command?
15:01 < Electro^> well that command works in the mongoDB shell fine
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15:01 < Electro^> our problem is sending the same command to the DB from
google Go code
15:01 < skelterjohn> oh, probably new(Doc), and then
theDoc.Append("filename", "test2")
15:01 < Electro^> through the driver
15:02 < skelterjohn> yes, i understand the issue.
15:02 < Electro^> righty
15:02 < skelterjohn> i mean, the Doc type only has one method, and it is
Append(string, interface{})
15:02 < skelterjohn> so append all the bits of that statement?
15:03 < Electro^> ..  that actually makes sense
15:03 < Electro^> i need to test that
15:03 < skelterjohn> well, how do you specify that it is update
15:03 < Electro^> ...  well that also a problem...
15:03 < Electro^> or is it
15:03 < skelterjohn> probably should use .SafeUpdate
15:03 < Electro^> its in the namespace
15:03 < skelterjohn> since you want to do an update
15:04 < skelterjohn> i'm not sure how the selector would work
15:04 < skelterjohn> that's the problem with having something be type
interface{}
15:04 < skelterjohn> the function signature tells you nothing
15:04 < Electro^> indeed
15:13 < Electro^> well so far ive gotten a runtime panic and an empty map
15:13 < Electro^> but atleast it'll compile
15:13 < Electro^> (testing further)
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15:17 < Electro^> no more panic but DB returns "no such cmd"
15:17 < Electro^> it looks better atleast...  :)
15:19 < skelterjohn> wish i could be more hel
15:19 < skelterjohn> p
15:19 < skelterjohn> i've never used mongo
15:19 < skelterjohn> or heard of it until i saw go projects interfacing to
it
15:19 < Electro^> you've been helpful
15:19 < Electro^> you got me thinking, and on the right track
15:20 < skelterjohn> good, then
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15:26 < ww> mongo is nice but min requirements are a bit high
15:26 < hokapoka> Erm, shoudl goinstall <repo> update a package that's
already been installed?  I had to delete the source and re-run goinstall to get
the new changes for a package.
15:26 < ww> requires 2x 64-bit hosts at a minimum if you care about your
data
15:27 < aiju> i use the in-kernel database called "filesystem" most of the
time
15:27 < hokapoka> Electro^: I'm using garys gomongo, really like it.
15:27 < ww> aiju hear hear
15:27 < hokapoka> I ported from another driver that I used for about 4/5
months.
15:28 < aiju> people putting all kind of stupid shit (website content, logs,
..) in databases annoy me
15:28 < ww> couldn't agree more
15:28 < Electro^> hokapoka: really?  then you should be able to answer,
since we are getting crazy her :)
15:29 < hokapoka> I can't quite workout what you're asking?
15:29 < hokapoka> You just trying to insert?
15:29 < aiju> sequential access on databases is so slow, it's not even funny
15:29 < Electro^> im trying to use RunCommand() to send various commands to
the DB, commands not in the driver
15:29 < hokapoka> Oh right what command?
15:30 < Electro^> "db.main.update({"fileName" : "test2"}, {$set :
{"userName" : ["kingkong", "gynther"]}})"
15:30 < Electro^> this command for example
15:30 < Electro^> which works fine in the shell
15:30 < Electro^> but we have no idea how to use from Go
15:32 < hokapoka> 2 ticks
15:32 < skelterjohn> hokapoka: goinstall -clean <repo>
15:32 < skelterjohn> err
15:32 < skelterjohn> goinstall -u <repo>
15:32 < skelterjohn> to update
15:33 < hokapoka> aha
15:33 < skelterjohn> and remember to goinstall -a -u -clean when you update
go
15:34 * wrtp hates it when something compiles first time.
15:34 < skelterjohn> wrtp: yeah - it's suspicious
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15:36 < hokapoka> Electro^: why are you using the runCommand over the
mongo.Update
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15:37 < hokapoka> *conn.Update
15:38 < Electro^> we were looking for a way to send any kind of mongoDB
command to the server, but perhaps the driver can do that if we look hard enough
15:38 < hokapoka> conn.Update("main", {"fileName":"test2"}, {"$set":{"...."}
15:38 < Electro^> ...
15:38 < Electro^> so thats how you use interfaces
15:39 < Electro^> gimme a sec, need to test that
15:40 < hokapoka> the update interfase needs to be : update :=
map[string]interface{}{ "$set":map[srting]interface{}{ "userName": "foobar"} }
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15:41 < hokapoka> As for sending commands Here's one I created for
findAndModify
15:41 < hokapoka> https://github.com/garyburd/go-mongo/issues/closed#issue/3
15:41 < hokapoka> Gary has since added FindAndUpdate / FindAndRemove to the
package.
15:41 < hokapoka>
https://github.com/garyburd/go-mongo/issues/closed#issue/3/comment/797142
15:41 < hokapoka> That one in fact
15:42 < hokapoka> If you want to use runCommand you can only use the command
that accepted by runCommand.
15:43 < hokapoka> Which are listed here :
http://api.mongodb.org/internal/current/commands.html
15:45 < Electro^> oh
15:45 < Electro^> now im starting to understand
15:46 < hokapoka> For Example ensureIndex isn't there.  The only way to
create an index is via inserting into the system.indexes collection.
15:47 < hokapoka> I have created a simple example on my fork,
https://github.com/hokapoka/go-mongo/blob/master/helpers.go#L132 but I think Gary
has created a better one but it's not bee pushed yet
15:48 < Electro^> right
15:48 < Electro^> well i got the code to work, and this blockage which have
stopped us for some days have passed now
15:48 < Electro^> im very grateful
15:48 < Electro^> thank you
15:48 < hokapoka> No problem.
15:50 < hokapoka> I had a bit of an issue when I ported from the other mongo
driver.  I was used to setting up a single connection that was shared throughout
many go routines, but there's a type pool that you're supposed to use instead.
15:51 < hokapoka> Electro^: I've never found the need to use that SafeConn.
I use the methods od conn directally, and it's behaved flawlessly.  I think I
would only use it if I were ttrying to do some atomic update.
15:52 < zozoR> is VIM easier to figure out and config than enacs?  : |
15:52 < aiju> VIM and emacs are pretty similar
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15:53 < jumzi> aiju has been sniffing the oranges again
15:53 < aiju> haha
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15:53 < aiju> i mean, VIM has *two* turing complete languages built in
15:53 < Electro^> hokapoka: yeah we use the conn.dial ourselves
15:54 < nsf> zozoR: vim is kind of usable in default configuration
15:54 < nsf> emacs isn't
15:54 < Electro^> hokapoka: conn, err := mongo.Dial(dBIP)
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15:54 < Electro^> that one specifically
15:54 < zozoR> i think ill play a little with vim then ..
15:54 < nsf> try both
15:54 < Electro^> but i must be off now, take care
15:54 < jumzi> zozoR: Whatever you choose, you'll spend six months learning
it
15:55 < nsf> because one way or another you'll want to try them
15:55 < nsf> why wait :)
15:55 < jumzi> I used vim for two years until i had enough
15:55 < aiju> i personally use VIM
15:55 * taruti uses mostly emacs and acme
15:55 < jumzi> I still do sometimes, but i prefer acme and sam on <--
weird guy
15:55 < aiju> acme is unusable with a clit mouse
15:55 < nsf> it doesn't matter what editor you'll end up using
15:56 < jumzi> now*
15:56 < nsf> just find something that you like
15:56 < zozoR> now i cant remember why i would want to change editor
15:56 < jumzi> aiju: buy a clit mouse?
15:56 < aiju> and if you like eclipse ..  may god help you
15:58 < hokapoka> jumzi: I've been thinking about trying plan9 out.  I did
for about 20 mins but got caught up with something I think I still have the thing
installed.
15:58 < hokapoka> I'm assuming you're using sam & acme on p9
15:58 < jumzi> Actually i do, altough most ppl use p9p for that nowadays
15:58 < jumzi> (i think)
16:00 < jumzi> But it's a really nice system with many great ideas
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16:01 < hokapoka> I've been thinking more and more recently in trying it,
mainly for a distributed system I'm writing in go.
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16:02 < jumzi> To bad the go port isn't complete :/
16:02 < hokapoka> I've using netchan alot atm, wondered if it would be
easier to manage migration of the processes.
16:02 < hokapoka> argh, well that's what I was going to read up on.
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16:20 < aiju> ...  someone just told me he thinks "foo = &Foo{some stuff,
next: foo}" is unreadable
16:20 < aiju> i find it beautiful :D
16:21 < wrtp> aiju: they're wrong
16:23 < skelterjohn> it's pretty readable
16:23 < wrtp> it's exactly the same as in a list-oriented language, e.g.
foo = var : foo
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16:25 < aiju> fuck
16:25 < aiju> rob fixed the missing prefix in goyacc in three hours
16:25 < aiju> now i already split my program into multiple packages
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16:26 < skelterjohn> darned responsive devs
16:26 < aiju> yeah
16:26 < aiju> there should be more like Apple devs
16:27 < aiju> (there are trivial webkits bug which haven't even been
acknowledged since '07)
16:27 < wrtp> aiju: you didn't even have to split your program :-)
16:27 < wrtp> ...  even without the fix
16:27 < aiju> wrtp: how so?
16:27 < aiju> (to quote a friend of mine, "webkit is the new IE")
16:27 < wrtp> you can have to disjoint grammars within the same grammar
16:27 < wrtp> s/to/two
16:27 < aiju> oh wow
16:28 < aiju> but blah it would make it even more messy than it is right now
16:28 < wrtp> just don't share any symbols
16:28 < wrtp> well, that's another argument :-)
16:28 < aiju> yeah, i'd have to put prefixes on my symbols
16:28 < wrtp> yeah
16:28 < aiju> arch_expr and asm_expr
16:28 < wrtp> the go compiler does something similar
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16:28 < wrtp> it uses a different grammar for .a files
16:29 < wrtp> you could just use a single letter
16:29 < wrtp> aExpr, mExpr
16:29 < wrtp> or whatever
16:29 < wrtp> anyway, you don't need it any more
16:29 < wrtp> (but it's a useful technique for future reference)
16:30 < aiju> blah rebuilding Go
16:32 < skelterjohn> thinking about recommending that "goinstall -a -clean"
is added to all.bash
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16:32 < skelterjohn> every few days i see a problem for which that is the
solution
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16:35 < aiju> somehow, gc got slow
16:36 < aiju> it seems slower than gcc :O
16:39 < aiju> is ogle what i think it is?
16:42 < skelterjohn> supposed to be a debugger
16:42 < skelterjohn> eventually
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16:56 < aiju> types on global variables are now optional?  wow
16:57 < aiju> does anyone happen to know since when?
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17:01 < wrtp> aiju: they always have been
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17:02 < skelterjohn> yeah, since forever :)
17:02 < skelterjohn> but only if you assign them something
17:02 < skelterjohn> you can't have just "var x" by itself
17:02 < skelterjohn> but you can have "var x = 2" or "var x = "hi"
17:03 < skelterjohn> with more quotes for that last one
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17:11 < aiju> oh wow, odd
17:11 < aiju> i remember some lengthy discussion about that in here ;P
17:11 < aiju> why it's an unnecessary feature and such
17:11 < aiju> and why Go should not have it
17:12 < aiju> or maybe my imagination is running wild :D
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17:12 < aiju> i wish nil was treated as an empty map
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17:24 < aiju> is there some way to figure out the function name from a
function pointer?
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17:28 <+iant> aiju: no, there may not even be a name
17:28 < aiju> ..  just for debugging
17:28 < aiju> so i'll keep a table, it's not too many anyway
17:28 < aiju> align is nicer to read than 0x808597597 :P
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17:40 < jokoon> i prefer 0x808597597
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17:51 < xyproto> hello, I want to have a bunch of strings mapped to other
strings.  What's the easiest way to do that.  Also, I'm sruggling with basic
syntax, what's wrong with x := map[string]string{"a":"b"} ?
17:52 < xyproto> *struggling
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17:52 < sav> ms
17:52 < sav> oops
17:56 < xyproto> ok, if I don't use := but =, it works.  Why?  *baffled*
17:56 < dfr|work> xyproto, i think you first have define the variable and
only then initialize it...  but not sure...
17:57 < dfr|work> xyproto, map[string]string does sound like the thing for
the job though
17:57 < xyproto> dfr|work: ok, thanks
17:57 < hokapoka> humm, I've got an error on ./all.bash tests - FAIL:
syslog.TestNew
17:57 < xyproto> dfr|work: Does it fail because := is for values and = for
pointers?
17:57 < xyproto> no, that can't be it
17:58 < dfr|work> xyproto, http://pastie.org/1621561 seems to work....
17:58 < dfr|work> mhmm...  what would be really cool if playground could
also work as pastie >.<
17:58 < xyproto> hokapoka: there's an environment variable named something
like DISABLE_TESTS (can't remember).  It may work for you.
17:59 < skelterjohn> xyproto: what you posted seems like it should work
17:59 < skelterjohn> perhaps the problem is elsewhere
17:59 < skelterjohn> xyproto: you're talking about DISABLE_NET_TESTS=1
17:59 < skelterjohn> but that's not for TestNew :)
17:59 < xyproto> skelterjohn: no, I think there's another environment
variable too
17:59 < skelterjohn> ok then
18:01 < xyproto> skelterjohn: nope, x := map[string]string{"a": "b"}, tried
it on the compiler on the golang.org front page.  It failed.
18:01 < xyproto> the := makes the difference
18:01 < xyproto> I have no idea why
18:01 < skelterjohn> oh - is this a global variable?
18:02 < xyproto> no, it does work on the webpage, I was mistaken
18:02 < skelterjohn> :)
18:02 < xyproto> but that does not invalidate what I said about there being
another environment variable ;)
18:03 < xyproto> so there :P
18:04 < xyproto> ah, everything works now.  Thanks for your help.  :)
18:04 < dfr|work> xyproto, so does := work or not work?  the code I pastied
seems to work on the playground
18:04 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the
connection]
18:04 < xyproto> dfr|work: it works
18:05 < dfr|work> xyproto, yay!  :D
18:05 < xyproto> dfr|work: no idea what strangeness I introduced here.  Copy
and paste problems, perhaps.
18:05 < xyproto> dfr|work: and yay \o/
18:06 < xyproto> I was afraid I would have to do stuff like hi := &hw {
wrld: make(map[string]string) }
18:06 < xyproto> found on a mailinglist
18:07 < dfr|work> xyproto, i think go tries really hard to not do heavy
differentiation between a pointer and an object.  So far I don't think I've seen
their behavior beinh different, except when passing by value/reference...  =/
18:07 < dfr|work> but I'm a nub, so I probably just didn't dig hard enough
yet...
18:07 < xyproto> nub high five
18:08 < skelterjohn> a pointer is just a particular sort of instance
18:09 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, well.  I always thought of a pointer being a
reference that you can do pointer arithmetic on.  I am not sure, but I don't think
Go allows doing pointer arithmetic.
18:09 < skelterjohn> it does not
18:09 < xyproto> there is an "unsafe" package, maybe pointer acrobatics is
allowed there?
18:09 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, and then when I was doing the Google Go
course, the dude was stressing a lot the & and * conversions....  but the only
thing I saw that pointer and object/reference behaved differently was when you're
passing it into a function....
18:09 < skelterjohn> i always thought of a reference as a pointer that you
can do regular operations on :)
18:10 < aiju> xyproto: yes, but it's awkward
18:10 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, so I am kinda confused if there's more
difference, or not really...
18:10 < skelterjohn> xyproto: yes - you can convert a pointer to a uint and
do arithmetic
18:10 < dfr|work> and if not really, why the conversions are stressed so
much =/
18:10 < aiju> "timeo unsafe et dona ferentem" should be along the Go mottos
18:10 < xyproto> I think it's a good thing that pointer arithmetic is
designed to be akward
18:11 < aiju> it's not designed to be awkward
18:11 < aiju> it just happens to be
18:11 < xyproto> I think it's good either way
18:11 < skelterjohn> dfr|work: as far as receiver functions go, pointers and
values have similar syntax
18:11 < skelterjohn> but different behavior
18:11 < skelterjohn> for instance, if you call a function on a value
instance, the value instance cannot be changed by the function
18:12 < skelterjohn> while it can if you call it on a pointer
18:12 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, but that stems from the fact that you're
passing by value in first, right?
18:12 < skelterjohn> yes
18:13 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, so right.  That makes sense, but that seems
like the only place where pointers and objects are different....
18:13 -!- artefon [~thiago@189.59.176.240.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined
#go-nuts
18:13 < skelterjohn> as in, one is a value, and the other is a pointer to a
value?  yes of course
18:13 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, basically, if that's the only difference, I
don't see why I'd ever have to do something like x := &y or *x
18:14 < skelterjohn> um
18:14 < dfr|work> I'd want to do foo(&y) to denote the passing by reference,
but that's about it =/
18:14 < skelterjohn> there you go
18:14 < skelterjohn> that's a useful thing to be able to do
18:14 < xyproto> go is the next best thing since sliced cheese <3
18:14 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts
18:14 < skelterjohn> also, when you pass a pointer around, only one word of
memory is passed around
18:14 < aiju> hahahahaha
18:15 < skelterjohn> if you pass the whole object, potentially lots of data
is copied
18:15 < skelterjohn> depending on the type
18:15 < aiju> making value/reference explicit is a really good thing imho
18:15 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, well yes.  That's why I'd probably be mostly
doing & everywhere...  or C++ style, do const & :)
18:15 < aiju> references in C++ are totally retarded
18:15 < dfr|work> aiju, agreed.  ;)
18:15 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:15 < skelterjohn> they're just * in sheep's clothing
18:16 < skelterjohn> i never found them confusing
18:16 < aiju> getting something done with a reference is like picking a
random child and ask him about a math problem in ancient babylonian
18:16 < xyproto> deconstructors are retarded in C++ as well, the order is
not defined
18:16 < xyproto> defer kicks ass, in that light
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18:17 < skelterjohn> defer and destructors don't serve the same purpose,
really
18:17 < xyproto> no, but still
18:17 < dfr|work> on a completely different topic: the object files compiled
by the go compiler are quite different from regular C object files, correct?  =/
18:17 < xyproto> I haven't found something that is in an undefined order yet
in Go
18:17 < skelterjohn> dfr|work: yes
18:17 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, is there a way to interface them or not
really?
18:17 < xyproto> (that needs to be)
18:17 < skelterjohn> yes - cgo
18:17 < skelterjohn> take a look at $GOROOT/misc/cgo
18:17 < skelterjohn> for examples
18:18 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, awesome.  Then perhaps I can use go to write
binary ruby extensions..  interesting
18:18 < skelterjohn> it's tougher to go the other way
18:18 < aiju> 19:19 < xyproto> I haven't found something that is in an
undefined order yet in Go
18:18 < skelterjohn> a go program invoking C code is easy
18:18 < xyproto> check out "static initialization order fiasco" for C++
horribleness: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/ctors.html#faq-10.15
18:18 < aiju> not sure; but isn't parameter evaluation in an undefined
order?
18:18 < skelterjohn> a C program invoking go code is hard
18:18 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, well, I do mean the other way.
18:18 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, compiling Go to C object code.
18:18 < skelterjohn> gccgo
18:19 < skelterjohn> but i don't know much about that
18:19 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, okay, that's what I was thinking would do the
trick.
18:19 < aiju> but gccgo eats children
18:19 < dfr|work> aiju, yea =/
18:19 < skelterjohn> that's what i hear
18:19 < dfr|work> anyhow...  I was just curious in general, when I'm finally
picking up a go project or something =/
18:19 < skelterjohn> what's your field?
18:20 < xyproto> aiju: I knew someone would try to prove me wrong ;) I
honestly don't know if there are undefined orders in Go, but the rest feels so
orderly, so I'm biased
18:20 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, well, I'm an engineer at google.  But I <3
ruby.
18:20 < skelterjohn> so, web stuff
18:20 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, yes.
18:20 < aiju> ruby?  YUCK
18:20 < dfr|work> aiju, ;)
18:20 < aiju> srsly, .nonzero?
18:20 < dfr|work> aiju, there's enough of ugly ruby to go around as well.
:P
18:20 < xyproto> ruby is okay, it can feel sturdier than python, but it's
slow, though
18:20 < aiju> ruby is as far from orthogonal as possible
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18:21 < skelterjohn> javascript?
18:21 < nsf> lua
18:21 < nsf> !
18:21 < nsf> :)
18:21 < aiju> javascript is hundred times more orthogonal than ruby
18:21 < dfr|work> anyhow...  didn't mean to start the language war here...
;)
18:21 < xyproto> nsf: counting from 1, pft ;)
18:21 < aiju> javascript is a minimalist language compared to ruby
18:21 < skelterjohn> i'm trying to make a js/go ajax app.  js is silly.
18:21 < nsf> :D
18:21 < skelterjohn> dfr|work: it happens every few hours
18:22 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, i figured.  It is funny to see people trash
other languages though.  ;)
18:22 < aiju> i did some language benchmarking some time ago and DAMN i
didn't include ruby
18:22 < skelterjohn> you could tune in to #ajiu all day
18:22 < aiju> hahahaahahah
18:22 < skelterjohn> #aiju
18:22 < dfr|work> aiju, well, I like it not because of speed.  ;)
18:22 < aiju> i'm not too much into speed arguments either
18:23 < aiju> .nonzero?  is a much better argument
18:23 < xyproto> dfr|work: do you like it because of << | and _why_ ?
18:23 < dfr|work> aiju, mhmm?
18:23 < aiju> why can't you just write x != 0?
18:23 < dfr|work> xyproto, no.  I like it because when I write ruby code, I
pretty much write what I want to say.
18:23 < aiju> ruby looks like the new COBOL
18:23 < aiju> MULTIPLY VALUE BY 500
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error: Connection reset by peer]
18:24 < xyproto> dfr|work: that's a good argument.  I like ruby too.  I
wrote crossfading status-text for "rubyroom" a few years ago :P *shameless
self-promotion*
18:24 < dfr|work> xyproto, so I guess I'm a fan of .nonzero?  even though
this is actually the first time I'm aware it exists.  :)
18:24 < aiju> that thing is just an example
18:24 < dfr|work> aiju, yea, I realize.  The thing is that I like that
numbers are objects =/
18:24 < aiju> ruby is full of functions _no person ever would actually need_
18:25 < nsf> I've just realized that it's impossible to use some of the C99
headers in a C++ app directly
18:25 -!- belkiss [~kvirc@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined
#go-nuts
18:25 < aiju> because it is _trivial_ and even _shorter_ without them
18:25 < nsf> :\
18:25 < dfr|work> aiju, but you _are_ speaking for just yourself.  ;)
18:25 < aiju> hahahah
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18:26 < xyproto> I hope web development in Go, with web.go or something
else, will become widespread
18:26 < nsf> xyproto: I think it won't
18:26 < skelterjohn> i'm using web.go
18:26 < skelterjohn> it's pretty sweet
18:26 < xyproto> skelterjohn: I really like it too
18:26 < nsf> monkeys won't speak Go, they speak PHP
18:26 -!- Natch| [~natch@c-6dcde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has
quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
18:26 < skelterjohn> client-side/server-side?
18:27 < aiju> "PHP is just a set of functions you can call and probably
should not" (kfx?)
18:27 < nsf> :)
18:27 < aiju> i hope NaCl will fail
18:27 < nsf> I hope it won't
18:27 < dfr|work> aiju, also, nonzero?  may be useful for floats, as they
have two representations for zero.  But just theoritizing.
18:27 < aiju> i want to switch away from fucking x86 in the future
18:27 < dfr|work> aiju, i never had to deal too much with floats in ruby, so
don't know for sure.
18:27 < xyproto> HTML5/canvas client side, web.go server side, and some
fancypancy document-oriented db like MongoDB sounds like a nice setup to me
18:27 < nsf> aiju: they have plans to use LLVM bytecode
18:27 < aiju> and i don't want silly web apps to prevent me from it
18:28 < aiju> gosh, why don't they just replace the entire OS by a browser?
18:28 < aiju> oh wait, chrome os
18:28 < nsf> that's what they are doing
18:28 < xyproto> aiju: we can invent the next big thing, assemblyttp, where
assembly is transferred and executed on the fly ;)
18:30 < xyproto> speaking of user-interaction, has anyone been successful in
making opengl work for Go? Here, it depends on SDL that just won't compile
(complains about image, even though sdl_image is installed)
18:31 < skelterjohn> xyproto: Go-OpenGL
18:31 < skelterjohn> on the dashboard list
18:31 < nsf> xyproto: on linux there is an issue with nvidia driver
18:31 < skelterjohn> though i have not gotten it to work, personally
18:31 < nsf> Go-OpenGL apps are segfaulting
18:31 < nsf> have no idea what's on mac or win
18:32 < nsf> at least, that was true last time i checked
18:32 < xyproto> I'm only on 64-bit Arch Linux these days, and it segfaults
here as well, yes
18:33 < nsf> well, I'm on x86 arch linux
18:33 < nsf> but I don't think it is arch's issue
18:34 < xyproto> nsf: me neither.  And Go Arch :P
18:34 < nsf> someone said that downgrading driver helps
18:34 < nsf> but I haven't checked that
18:34 < nsf> didn't*
18:34 < nsf> anyways, the problem is here
18:35 < xyproto> have you seen!  It works here now, with the latest git
versions
18:35 < xyproto> I wouldn't have thought.
18:35 < nsf> hm..
18:35 < xyproto> that must be a recent improvement, because I've been
checking regularly
18:36 < xyproto> yey :)
18:36 < skelterjohn> what works now, opengl?
18:36 < nsf> I'll take a look later, I'm busy reinventing C
18:36 < xyproto> yes, SDL and OpenGL with Go on 64-bit Arch Linux
18:36 < xyproto> :)
18:36 < aiju> people forgetting C are forced to reinvent it, poorly
18:36 < xyproto> the draw example compiles and runs without a hitch
18:36 < xyproto> and gogears
18:37 -!- qjcg [~qjcg@208.88.110.46] has joined #go-nuts
18:37 < xyproto> but the gomandel example does not compile
18:37 < nsf> xyproto: it's broken, yeah
18:37 < xyproto> I'll update go here, though, just to be sure
18:37 < nsf> I'm the original author btw
18:37 < xyproto> nsf: nice :)
18:37 < nsf> of gomandel example
18:37 < xyproto> nsf: and the opengl for go project?
18:37 < skelterjohn> ^5
18:38 < nsf> nope
18:38 < nsf> I did just an example
18:38 < xyproto> nfs: ok.  It only seems like it's this, though:
gomandel.go:140: cannot use multiple-value assignment for non-blocking receive;
use select
18:38 < aiju> xyproto: oh yeah, they changed that
18:38 < aiju> one of the most stupid changes imho :P
18:38 < nsf> yeah, there was a bunch of language changes
18:38 < xyproto> aha
18:38 < nsf> and float removal also
18:38 < xyproto> I'll update go to the freshest of freshness
18:38 < aiju> floating point is for wimps anyway
18:39 < nsf> it's totally unmaintained
18:39 < aiju> real men use fixed point
18:39 * aiju is parodying FORTH programmers, just to clarify :P
18:39 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.78.144] has joined #go-nuts
18:40 < nsf> lol, I don't know why, I like this syntax for pointers:
18:40 < nsf> var x ->int;
18:40 < aiju> hahahaha
18:40 < nsf> taken from zinc programming language
18:40 < skelterjohn> heh
18:40 < nsf> you can read '->' pretty much directly as 'pointer to'
18:40 < skelterjohn> what about: var @x int
18:40 < nsf> :D
18:40 < skelterjohn> what is at x is an int
18:40 < nsf> skelterjohn: no no
18:41 < aiju> i'm a C programmer, after years of using it, one eight of my
brain is now specialized for evaluating C declarations
18:41 < skelterjohn> nsf: yes yes
18:41 < nsf> @ - fits as a pointer dereference op
18:41 < skelterjohn> right - and if you dereference x, it's an int
18:41 < aiju> and now, thanks Go, -> is a channel for me
18:41 < nsf> var y = @x;
18:41 < skelterjohn> -> is not chan
18:41 < skelterjohn> <- is chan
18:42 < aiju> i'm a bit into topology, those are homeomorphic
18:42 < aiju> just like probably any other character lol
18:42 < skelterjohn> except one is a go operator, and one is not
18:42 < nsf> skelterjohn: btw, nice idea (@ operator)
18:42 < nsf> I like that :D
18:42 < xyproto> to me, -> is the "goes to" operator: while( x --> 0 )
// x goes to 0 ...
18:43 < skelterjohn> it's how i read * anyway, in my head
18:43 < aiju> blah
18:43 < aiju> y'all need more C
18:43 < nsf> I don't read it, I just understand it
18:43 < nsf> ehm..
18:43 < nsf> anyways
18:43 < nsf> @ is cool :)
18:43 < aiju> do it like many assemblers
18:43 < aiju> () is a pointer dereference
18:44 < nsf> no
18:44 < skelterjohn> () is grouping and that is how it should stay
18:44 < aiju> i should write that on my list for potential esoteric language
features
18:44 < nsf> although, some parts of the code look weird with ->
18:44 < nsf> like:
18:44 < nsf> func main(argc int, argv ->->char) int
18:44 < nsf> :D
18:44 < skelterjohn> @@argv char!
18:44 < nsf> no
18:44 < skelterjohn> :)
18:44 < nsf> :)
18:44 < aiju> char** or gtfo
18:45 < nsf> aiju: C's declaration syntax is broken
18:45 < aiju> tbqh, yes
18:45 < skelterjohn> i would like it to be: argv &&char, tbh
18:45 < xyproto> now, if only there were void pointers in Go *ducks*
18:45 < skelterjohn> argv is the address of the address of a char
18:45 < aiju> but **char is fine
18:45 < aiju> xyproto: there are
18:45 < aiju> xyproto: interface{}
18:45 < xyproto> what?
18:46 < nsf> I like void*
18:46 < xyproto> my whole world is falling apart
18:46 < aiju> interface{} is pretty much like a safe void pointer
18:46 < skelterjohn> and since go doesn't have ref types, we could have usd
it for pointer types
18:46 < aiju> Go does have reference types
18:46 < skelterjohn> i mean, C++ style int& x
18:46 < aiju> maps, specifically
18:46 < nsf> in Go there is a void*
18:46 < skelterjohn> map is a secret pointer
18:46 < aiju> blah
18:46 < nsf> it's called unsafe.Pointer
18:46 < aiju> unsafe.Pointer is a cross between uintptr and a real pointer
18:47 < nsf> because like void* you can convert any pointer type to it and
back
18:47 < skelterjohn> well, map is a struct that contains a pointer
18:47 < nsf> uintptr is for arithmetic
18:47 < aiju> you can't compile Go code for PDP-10, this really sucks
18:48 < nsf> :)
18:48 < aiju> the specs need uint36
18:48 < aiju> those 32/64 chauvinists!
18:48 < nsf> I don't think someone cares about something else than
x86/x86_64/PPC/arm
18:49 < nsf> PPC is still alive, because it's in playstation 3
18:50 < nsf> well, not just playstation
18:50 < aiju> MIPS maybe
18:50 < aiju> idk how alive that one is
18:50 < nsf> it's in Wii also and in a bunch of other game consoles
18:50 < aiju> i just know some embedded systems with it
18:50 < aiju> and virtually any university uses it for teaching assembly lol
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18:52 < nsf> oh, we have 'pointer to' type specified (->), pointer
dereference operator (@), but what about 'address of' op?
18:53 < nsf> &?
18:53 < nsf> or no, '?' <- like "where is this var?"
18:53 < aiju> haha
18:53 < KBme> heh
18:54 < nsf> var x int; var y ->int = ?x;
18:54 < nsf> lol
18:54 < skelterjohn> heh
18:54 < aiju> 卐x because pointer arithmetic is evil
18:54 < TheSeeker> hah
18:54 < nsf> I should use every symbol on a keyboard in syntax
18:54 < nsf> :P
18:54 < skelterjohn> just write K code
18:54 < aiju> you should use every symbol in Unicode
18:55 < KBme> APL++
18:57 -!- belkiss [~kvirc@drn13-1-78-235-168-105.fbx.proxad.net] has left #go-nuts
["Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device
for enabling you to know that it is"]
18:57 < nsf> I guess I'll just leave '&'
18:58 < nsf> or not
18:58 * nsf will test it by converting C code to that new syntax
18:58 < nsf> :P
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#go-nuts
19:00 < skelterjohn> not a fan of ->
19:01 -!- photron [~photron@port-92-201-11-114.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts
19:01 < nsf> but it really makes sense on a page
19:02 < nsf> and no one will use my language anyway
19:02 < nsf> so, it doesn't matter, lol
19:02 < skelterjohn> how about: var x int; var y int@; x = @y
19:02 < nsf> no
19:02 < skelterjohn> it's the "int at" type
19:02 < skelterjohn> it makes perfect sense!
19:03 < jokoon> I have a problem I can't solve: I have a pentakis
dodecahedron net image, a printer that prints on A4 sheets, and I want to print
several part so I can make the net on thicker paper, so I can have a big strong
shape
19:03 < nsf> no, I like ->
19:04 < femtoo> func main() { var N int; fmt.Scan(N) }
19:04 < femtoo> is this excpected to terminate immediately
19:04 < femtoo> ?
19:04 < jokoon> but if I do it in separate parts, I can't have all the parts
with the same size
19:04 < femtoo> because on windows it does
19:05 < aiju> femtoo: Scan wants a pointer
19:05 < aiju> fmt.Scan(&N)
19:05 < skelterjohn> femtoo: err = fmt.Scan(...)
19:05 < skelterjohn> :)
19:05 < femtoo> thanks now it works
19:05 < skelterjohn> if you don't check error conditions, don't be surprised
if you don't know why it's not working
19:06 < femtoo> skelterjohn, its only quick and dirty parsing for the input
of a codejam challenge
19:06 < skelterjohn> k, but the error would have been something like "really
need a pointer, here"
19:06 < xyproto> ok, I have another conundrum.  This line: mappings :=
map[string]string { "IMAGE" : "/usr/bin/eog" }
19:06 < xyproto> gives me: my-open.go:46: invalid identifier character 0xa0
19:06 < aiju> what the fuck
19:06 < nsf> '?' definitely doesn't work for 'where is in memory aka address
of', '?' is more like 'wtf?'
19:06 < nsf> lol
19:07 < aiju> nsf: ???  should be used to throw an exception
19:07 < skelterjohn> d\\\
19:07 < skelterjohn> lol
19:07 < nsf> aiju: indeed
19:07 < aiju> or have all functions end in ???, PROFIT
19:07 < nsf> :)
19:07 < aiju> though this works better in prolog
19:07 < aiju> foo(X) :- bar(X), ???, PROFIT.
19:08 < skelterjohn> ¿File not found?
19:08 < nsf> aiju: have you tried lolcode?
19:08 < aiju> nsf: not in practice
19:08 < nsf> :D
19:08 < nsf> but it sounds like you're familiar with it :D
19:08 < skelterjohn> i like ¿?  exceptions
19:08 < aiju> yeah, heard about it
19:08 < aiju> skelterjohn: those are spanish villages to me (if that saying
exists in english as well)
19:08 < skelterjohn> nope
19:09 < TheSeeker> shouldn't exceptions be: ¡!  ?
19:09 < skelterjohn> no idea what you mean
19:09 < aiju> german for "i have no clue what you're talking about"
19:09 < skelterjohn> ah
19:09 < skelterjohn> "it's greek to me"
19:09 < skelterjohn> that's the english version
19:09 < aiju> oic
19:09 < skelterjohn> in spanish,they put ¿ at the beginning of questions i
think
19:09 < aiju> but that ruins the pun ;)
19:09 < aiju> yeah
19:09 < skelterjohn> so i thought you were referring to that
19:09 < skelterjohn> ah
19:09 < skelterjohn> you were indeed
19:10 < skelterjohn> but when you say "that's greek to me" you get to make
puns when someone shows you advanced math equations
19:10 < aiju> hahahahahahahahaha
19:10 < aiju> awesome
19:11 < xyproto> x := map[string]string { "a" : "b" }
19:11 < xyproto> if I move the } one line down, I get several errors, why?
19:11 < skelterjohn> oh
19:11 < skelterjohn> end the line with a comma
19:11 < aiju> xyproto: "a" : "b",
19:11 < aiju> automatic semicolon insertion
19:11 < skelterjohn> it's the semicolon insertion rule
19:11 < xyproto> oh, ok, thanks
19:12 < aiju> causes more trouble than those semicolons ever caused blah
19:12 < skelterjohn> still feel like they should have made \n a token
19:12 < skelterjohn> and been done with it
19:12 < aiju> a grammar with '\n' all over the place is INSANE
19:12 < aiju> because it needs to be ignored at some places, but not at
others
19:13 < aiju> the current version is the better one, really
19:13 < skelterjohn> as long as you know when it's messing up it's fine
19:13 < aiju> that's an excuse for anything
19:13 < aiju> but yeah, it's bearable
19:13 < skelterjohn> just need better error messages
19:14 < xyproto> What I find strange is that "," usually means "but, wait,
there's more!", but in {} it means "ok, done with this line"
19:14 < skelterjohn> or have the compile error to show the inserted
semicolon
19:14 < aiju> xyproto: languages which DISALLOW trailing , are MUCH worse
19:14 < aiju> like javascript
19:14 < skelterjohn> terminators > separators
19:15 < xyproto> aiju: true, but still.  It could have been ";" or "."
instead of ","
19:15 < aiju> nah
19:15 < xyproto> ok, not .
19:15 < aiju> bikeshed after all
19:15 < xyproto> oh well
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error: Connection reset by peer]
19:15 < aiju> "this bikeshed has already been painted and the painter is
gone" (Pike on Go syntax) ;)
19:16 -!- pingveno [~pingveno@c-98-246-133-8.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined
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19:16 < xyproto> fair enough
19:17 < nsf> btw, I think ':' is stpid in maps
19:17 < nsf> and ruby's '=>' is even worse
19:18 < nsf> what's wrong with '='?
19:18 < aiju> = implies equality
19:18 < aiju> "foo" = "bar" yuck
19:18 < aiju> : is fine
19:18 < skelterjohn> => is implication in logic speak
19:18 < aiju> ["foo"] "bar" is also acceptable
19:18 < nsf> in programming languages it's assignment
19:18 < nsf> everyone knows it
19:18 < nsf> lua uses '=' for maps
19:19 < nsf> I guess we think in different ways
19:20 < skelterjohn> funny error: the code i'm executing is fmt.Printf("'%v'
%d %v\n", t1, len(t1), t1=="VERSION")
19:20 < skelterjohn> it prints out: 'VERSION' 107 false
19:20 < skelterjohn> how on earth does that happen
19:20 < nsf> skelterjohn: lol
19:21 < nsf> strings in Go are not null terminated
19:21 < KBme> heh
19:21 < nsf> but %v prints until \0 I believe
19:21 < skelterjohn> sure, but i'm not using C
19:21 < KBme> but ==
19:21 < aiju> some terminals don't display null characters
19:21 < aiju> that is, they don't display them at all
19:21 < aiju> no blanks or anything
19:21 < KBme> oh == is false
19:21 < KBme> right
19:21 < skelterjohn> wonder how a null got in there
19:21 < aiju> try |hexdump -C
19:22 < skelterjohn> oh
19:22 < skelterjohn> no, figured it out
19:22 < skelterjohn> using a bytes.NewBuffer(make([]byte,100)) to start it
up
19:22 < skelterjohn> and VERSION has 7 chars
19:22 < skelterjohn> so not sure why it's screwing up exactly, but i can fix
it
19:23 < nsf> I know why
19:23 < nsf> because make([]byte, 100) has len == 100
19:23 < nsf> you need: make([]byte, 0, 100)
19:23 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-248-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error:
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19:23 < aiju> w00t
19:23 < nsf> make([]byte, 100) also is full of zeros
19:23 < skelterjohn> just giving it a []byte{}
19:23 < aiju> my assembler can assemble a euclid algorithm in PDP-11 assembl
19:23 < aiju> +y
19:24 < nsf> skelterjohn: you actually don't need to call NewBuffer at all
19:24 < nsf> just use var b bytes.Buffer
19:24 < nsf> it's zero initialized by default
19:24 < nsf> and you can write to it
19:24 < skelterjohn> ah
19:24 < skelterjohn> fun
19:25 < aiju> i recently heard an OO guy saying "nobody needs inheritance"
19:25 < nsf> aiju: it's true
19:25 < aiju> yeah
19:25 < aiju> but most OO guys don't realize that
19:25 < skelterjohn> ack - no i want a pointer to the buffer
19:25 < nsf> well, in popular programming languages inheritance is a weird
way of overriding data in a vtable
19:25 < nsf> there are better ways
19:26 < nsf> in Go for example vtables are being created on the fly
19:26 < nsf> and structs use compositing features only
19:26 < xyproto> thanks for your help guys, talk to you :) *afk*
19:26 < nsf> very nice approach
19:27 < nsf> aiju: even OO guys start to realize, that: compositing >
inheritance
19:27 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #go-nuts
19:27 < aiju> or, according to this LISP guy, macro systems >
inheritance, hahahaha
19:27 < nsf> at least some of them
19:27 < aiju> i'm reading this LISP book and i have no clue whether the
author is serious
19:28 < nsf> I think LISP sucks and it's beautiful
19:28 < nsf> :)
19:28 < jbooth1> haha
19:28 < aiju> http://letoverlambda.com/ that one
19:28 < aiju> there are several places where it says it's not meant 100%
serious
19:28 < aiju> Starting with the fundamentals, it describes the most advanced
features of the most advanced language: COMMON LISP.
19:28 < nsf> something that sucks and is beautiful..  hm..  I understand
lisp programmers now
19:29 < aiju> and he bashes C and Scheme all the time, it's hilarious to
read
19:29 < skelterjohn> nsf: programmer porn?
19:29 < nsf> skelterjohn: :D
19:29 < aiju> damn, i need network-transparent copy&paste
19:29 < nsf> I'm just playin' with words and meanings
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19:30 < nsf> aiju: the problem with lisp
19:30 < nsf> that it's not a language
19:30 < nsf> it's a textual form of an AST tree
19:30 < aiju> not quite
19:30 < aiju> there is ' and #' and what not
19:30 < nsf> it is conceptually beautiful
19:30 < nsf> but..
19:30 < aiju> http://pastebin.com/fjrpJAii pdp-11 for my "universal
assembler"
19:31 < nsf> it's pain to do a refactoring in lisp
19:31 < nsf> really cool language should combine conceptual beauty and
editor friendliness
19:31 < KBme> you don't need to, refactoring is evil
19:32 < KBme> you rewrite from scratch
19:32 < KBme> real men rewrite it :D
19:32 < nsf> KBme: most of the code life cycle is refactoring
19:32 < aiju> a good language should be editable with ed :P
19:32 < nsf> and editting
19:32 < aiju> KBme: real men don't rewrite code, they just hack more stuff
into it
19:32 < nsf> well, actually reading the code is on the first place
19:32 < aiju> preferably they hack the binary, who needs the source?
19:32 < nsf> then editting/changing existing code
19:32 < nsf> and then writing
19:32 * TheSeeker misses QBasic >_>
19:32 < aiju> hahahhaa
19:32 * aiju doesn't
19:33 < KBme> aiju: chuck norris burns his code directly to the cpu/memory
19:33 < nsf> oops
19:33 < nsf> there is no such word as editting
19:33 * aiju misses front panels
19:33 < nsf> editing* :)
19:33 < aiju> i'm way too young to have ever seen a front panel outside a
museum, it's probably from a previous life
19:34 < nsf> KBme: real programmers use butterflies
19:34 < aiju> real programmers use TECO
19:34 < aiju> that's more difficult than butterflies
19:35 < KBme> heheh
19:35 < nsf> and damn, Go is really good
19:35 < nsf> I'm reviewing it's syntax/semantics right now
19:35 < nsf> there is something really good in it
19:36 < nsf> :P
19:36 < nsf> even though GC sucks, etc.
19:36 < KBme> Unlike regular expressions, however, the language was
imperative (though some versions had an 'or' operator in string search).
19:36 < KBme> heheheh
19:36 < aiju> TECO is a frightening beast
19:36 < KBme> and the developer's name is murphy
19:37 < aiju> http://letoverlambda.com/references.lisp this just proves my
prejudice that LISP programmers write love letters in LISP
19:37 < KBme> nsf: yeah, you god some omprovements with latest gc updates
no?
19:37 < KBme> got*
19:37 < nsf> KBme: of course
19:37 < nsf> but still GC sucks
19:37 < nsf> :D
19:37 < KBme> heh
19:37 < aiju> KBme: TECO is older than interactive computing
19:37 < KBme> aiju: yea
19:38 < aiju>
@^UB#@S/{^EQQ,/#@^UC#@S/,^EQQ}/@-1S/{/#@^UR#.U1ZJQZ\^SC.,.+-^SXQ-^SDQ1J#@^U9/[]-+<>.,/<@:-FD/^N^EG9/;>J30000<0@I/
/>ZJZUL30000J0U10U20U30U60U7@^U4/[]/@^U5#<@:S/^EG4/U7Q7;-AU3(Q3-91)"=%1|Q1"=.U6ZJ@i/{/Q2\@i/,/Q6\@i/}/Q6J0;'-1%1'
>#<@:S/[/UT.U210^T13^TQT;QT"NM5Q2J'>0UP30000J.US.UI<(0A-43)"=QPJ0AUTDQT+1@I//QIJ@O/end/'(0A-45)"=QPJ0AUTDQT-1@I//
19:38 < aiju>
QIJ@O/end/'(0A-0)"=QP-1UP@O/end/'(0A-62)"=QP+1UP@O/end/'(0A(-46)"=-.+QPA^T(-.+QPA-10)"=13^T'@O/end/'(0A-44)"=^TUT
8^TQPJDQT@I//QIJ@O/end/'(0A-91)"=-.+QPA"=QI+1UZQLJMRMB\-1J.UI'@O/end/'(0A-93)"=-.+QPA"NQI+1UZQLJMRMC\-1J.UI'@O/en
d/'!end!QI+1UI(.-Z)"=.=@^a/END/^c^c'C>
19:38 < aiju> why doesn't Go look like that?
19:38 < KBme> //kick aiju
19:38 < aiju> haha
19:38 < jokoon> what is that ?
19:38 < nsf> KBme: I don't think that asking a machine to do everything for
you is the end goal, philosophically
19:38 < TheSeeker> GC will suck less when it can periodically release some
memory back to the OS ...
19:38 < aiju> jokoon: TECO input
19:38 < jokoon> what's it for ?
19:39 < KBme> nsf: well, as we can see most programmers need a nanny
19:39 < nsf> the idea is - human evolution, and GC is like a bad answer to
that
19:39 < KBme> gc is pretty good for that
19:39 < nsf> KBme: they should die :)
19:39 < KBme> heh, right
19:39 < aiju> Ken called GC a mistake ;P
19:39 < nsf> natural selection, etc.
19:39 < TheSeeker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector
19:39 < nsf> aiju: is he?  where?
19:39 < nsf> and what's more important
19:39 < nsf> when?  :)
19:39 < aiju> nsf: Coders at Work, ~2009
19:39 < jokoon> so the gc can be totally disabled ?
19:39 < nsf> interesting
19:39 < aiju> jokoon: not in Go
19:39 < nsf> so it was after Go
19:40 < KBme> lol
19:40 < aiju> nsf: Go is not mentioned in the interview, i suspect it has
been earlier
19:40 < KBme> that's what i call off to a good start
19:40 < nsf> aiju: well, ken won't say that Go sucks because it has GC
19:40 < nsf> it's still a good language as I've said
19:40 < aiju> actually, he said, GC is a mistake for "big things"
19:40 < skelterjohn> at the moment, you can't create chans and maps without
using the gc, so you can't totally disable it
19:40 < aiju> compilers and operating systems
19:40 < nsf> anyways, I think it's a conceptual mistake
19:41 < nsf> but practical advantage
19:41 < nsf> :)
19:41 < skelterjohn> it would be neat if you could have a custom allocator
19:41 < skelterjohn> for make to use
19:41 < aiju> i don't mind gc too much
19:41 < aiju> skelterjohn: many innocent-looking things in Go cause memory
allocation
19:41 < aiju> it's not "just don't use malloc" as in C
19:42 < skelterjohn> right
19:42 < skelterjohn> this would be tricky
19:42 < skelterjohn> i'm not saying they should do it
19:42 < skelterjohn> just that it would be neat
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19:42 < aiju> allowing "GC-free" Go would require to change a lot of the
language semantics
19:42 < nsf> and what's more important
19:42 < aiju> to make memory allocation more explicit
19:42 < skelterjohn> having go be GC'd lets us have memory safe closures
without trouble
19:42 < nsf> GC-free Go requires new library
19:42 < nsf> with different interface
19:43 < nsf> things like os.Error will have Free method or something
19:43 < jumzi> hmm...  well gc for a kernel or compilers might be tricky tbh
:P, not that i've tried
19:43 < aiju> idk about compilers
19:43 < aiju> they don't need any real time response or anything
19:44 < nsf> aiju: they need to be as fast as possible
19:44 < jumzi> nah
19:44 < aiju> hahahahahahaha
19:44 < aiju> look at g++
19:44 < skelterjohn> nsf: it can just free all the memory at the end :)
19:44 < jumzi> Make; sleep...  godnight
19:44 < nsf> aiju: exactly
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19:44 < nsf> it's terribly slow
19:44 < nsf> and g++ has a GC, btw
19:45 < jumzi> ...Now to start debugging
19:45 < aiju> i don't think it'd be much faster without
19:45 < nsf> and it's memory hungry
19:45 < nsf> aiju: take a look at clang
19:45 < nsf> it would be exactly like that
19:45 < aiju> is clang gc-free?
19:45 < nsf> yes
19:45 < nsf> it's in C++
19:46 < aiju> well...  you can't just compare things like that
19:46 < zozoR> oh lords, i didnt know you had to create handles for image
and js requests too D:
19:46 < nsf> trying to add a GC to C++ is like a hell
19:46 < zozoR> when creating go server
19:46 < aiju> nsf: true
19:46 < nsf> aiju: but you're right
19:46 < nsf> it's not that much faster
19:46 < nsf> 2x max
19:46 < nsf> in most cases a much smaller number
19:46 < nsf> like 1.1x or something
19:46 < skelterjohn> zozoR: you don't with web.go - it will look for static
files
19:47 < nsf> but it's much better regarding memory consumption
19:47 < zozoR> i does not like web.go
19:47 -!- tav [~tav@92.7.95.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
19:47 < skelterjohn> well, write a handler for static files
19:47 < zozoR> :)
19:47 < skelterjohn> what don't you like about web.go?
19:47 < nsf> who needs web.go and http
19:47 < nsf> use lighttpd
19:48 < nsf> and fastcgi go app
19:48 < aiju> i've heard gc'd programs can even be faster due to less
unnecessary copies
19:48 < nsf> aiju: theory...
19:48 < nsf> actually they say it differently
19:49 < nsf> average C malloc/free code is _sometimes_ slower than the good
GC
19:49 < nsf> :)
19:49 < nsf> you see there is a lot of different words
19:49 < aiju> it's always difficult to tell Java propaganda from actually
meaningful facts
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19:49 < TheSeeker> so ...  when do we get a fully Go OS?
19:49 < nsf> 'average', 'malloc/free, wtf?', 'sometimes?', 'good GC, wtf?'
19:49 < nsf> etc.
19:50 < aiju> TheSeeker: i started one, but the language is too unstable
currently
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19:50 < TheSeeker> understandable.
19:50 < aiju> it would get down to rewrites every two to four weeks, which
is *really* annoying
19:51 < nsf> aiju: indeed
19:51 < nsf> I'm maintaining two Go projects
19:51 < nsf> and it's a bit annoying
19:51 < aiju> nsf: do your projects need thousands of hacks in the runtime?
19:51 < nsf> small, but nasty changes every two weeks or so
19:51 < aiju> consider that :P
19:51 < nsf> aiju: no :)
19:51 < aiju> that's what a kernel needs
19:51 < nsf> but still..
19:52 < jnwhiteh> you could write an academic/research kernel that doesn't
need as many hacks, surely?
19:52 < nsf> well, one of my projects is gocode and it contains partial
semantic analyzer for Go
19:52 < nsf> language changes hit hard
19:52 < nsf> :)
19:52 < aiju> jnwhiteh: the runtime does not include support for things like
interrupts
19:52 < jnwhiteh> ah well, there is that =)
19:52 < aiju> and other things
19:52 < jnwhiteh> makes complete sense
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20:06 < skelterjohn> i hate writing java code, now
20:06 < skelterjohn> so much effort to do simple things
20:08 < homa_rano> I always hated java in that I couldn't just write a
function
20:08 < homa_rano> there has to be a class behind everything
20:08 < nsf> I haven't written a single java class/function so far and I'm
proud of that
20:08 < nsf> :D
20:09 < nsf> can't say the same about C# though
20:11 < nsf> lol, 3 rays of hatred have been successfully sent to Java
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20:32 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, java is evil.  :(
20:32 < skelterjohn> i used to be all about java
20:32 < skelterjohn> my undergrad was a java school
20:33 * TheSeeker is reminded that he wanted to make a Freenet clone in Go ..
Freenet being a java application x_x
20:33 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, hah.  :D I was happy about GWT.  And then I
did ruby.  And now I'm back to java :(
20:33 < skelterjohn> what is GWT
20:33 < TheSeeker> google web toolkit
20:33 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, Google web Toolkit.  Java -> JS
compiler...  plus else
20:33 < skelterjohn> ah
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20:34 < TheSeeker> hmm, how to implement Just Fast Keying in Go ...
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21:26 * TheSeeker is trying to use goinstall again, with gowin32-2011-02-24
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21:28 < TheSeeker> initially, I'd get redefinition errors for 'strtod' and
'struct timespec'.
21:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/2l6oLp by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
fmt: make %#p suppress leading 0x
21:29 < TheSeeker> I added an #undef in front of the first, and commented
out the second.  now I get this: http://dark-code.bulix.org/wu7qyp-79479
21:29 < TheSeeker> Any ideas at all?
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21:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/E0p3OZ by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/fmt/ --
fmt: delete debugging print that crept in to test.
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21:54 < skelterjohn> this one's for Namegduf, aiju and nsf:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_frm/thread/98a5f2528553ea6e
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21:56 < aiju> hahahahaha
21:56 < aiju> suggestions like this should lead to shitstorms of insults
21:56 < aiju> we should take inspiration from /b/
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22:02 < plexdev> http://is.gd/IrheSw by [Rob Pike] in go/doc/ -- docs: make
"runtime" a word only as a name for the package.
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22:19 < plexdev> http://is.gd/YJ3z3E by [Brad Fitzpatrick] in
go/src/pkg/http/ -- http: expose Client's Transport
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23:18 < evildho> iant: heh.
23:18 < evildho> "p" (t) is in one case compiling to (%eax) grr.
23:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/GSEHAK by [David Symonds] in go/src/pkg/http/
-- http: give ParseHTTPVersion a real example.
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23:32 < evildho> nope, i'm retarded.  as usual.
23:32 < evildho> haha
23:33 <@adg> aiju: that wouldn't be very helpful, though.  i think rob's
response was exactly on point
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 02 00:00:34 2011