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02:56 < steven> hi
02:56 < steven> <3
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03:00 < skelterjohn> hello
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03:08 < steven> if you convert a value to an interface type, does that
create a sort of almost "pointer" type wrapper around the initial value?
03:12 < skelterjohn> depends on the size of the value
03:12 < skelterjohn> i think if it can fit in a word, it will just be part
of the interface value
03:13 < skelterjohn> if it is too big, an allocation on the heap will be
made and the interface will point to it
03:14 < steven> oh.  i read this and got confused then:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5033605/common-programming-mistakes-for-go-developers-to-avoid/5044201#5044201
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03:17 < skelterjohn> in that example, if you pass a *nexter you can modify
what the nexter's value is in the other function
03:17 < skelterjohn> so, it's not without use, but it's usually not what the
programmer means
03:20 < steven> so what happens when you have "a := 42; var b interface{}; b
= a" ?
03:20 < steven> i know that a and b are two different types, int and
interface{}
03:20 < steven> but,
03:20 < steven> what does that mean in terms of their actual value?
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03:22 < steven> whoa!
03:22 < steven> wait a second!
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03:22 < steven> why is it that when you do "var a SomeStruct", type of a is
now "*main.SomeStruct"?
03:23 < steven> why is it suddenly a pointer?
03:23 < skelterjohn> why do you think it is
03:23 < exch> Because you declared it to be that type
03:23 < steven> i did "var a SomeStruct", not "var a *SomeStruct"
03:24 < exch> ah right
03:24 < skelterjohn> steven: why do you say it is *main.SomeStruct?
03:24 < exch> that seems unlikely
03:24 < steven> thats what %T prints out in fmt.Printf
03:24 < skelterjohn> ah
03:24 < skelterjohn> when you pass something to a fmt function, it gets
passed as an interface
03:25 < skelterjohn> and an interface is a set size - so it uses pointers to
what you turn into that interface
03:25 < skelterjohn> i worded that a bit awkwardly, let me know if it made
sense
03:26 < steven> well,
03:27 < skelterjohn> huh - steven...
03:27 < steven> i think what you are saying is, when you convert something
to an interface type, it really gets the pointer to that value, right?
03:27 < steven> yes?
03:27 < skelterjohn> I do fmt.Printf("%T\n", A{})
03:27 < skelterjohn> and i get main.A
03:27 < steven> hmm
03:27 < steven> do var a A, then pass a
03:27 < skelterjohn> still main.A
03:28 < steven> ooooh SNAP
03:28 < steven> that was stupid of me.
03:28 < skelterjohn> but the interface still contains a pointer
03:28 < skelterjohn> but it makes sense that fmt would know how to interpret
it
03:29 < steven> so when you convert something to an interface, it creates a
pointer to your value behind the scenes and wraps that around some concrete
interface type?
03:29 < skelterjohn> not to your value
03:29 < steven> ie InterfaceType
03:29 < skelterjohn> if you assign a value to an interface, it has to copy
that value to somewhere you don't know abuot
03:29 < steven> oh.
03:29 < skelterjohn> so if you modify what's in the interface it won't
affect the original data
03:31 < steven> man the new xcode's kinda cool not gonna lie
03:31 < steven> so, im thinking of writing a new web framework modeled
similarly to rails.
03:31 < steven> in Go
03:32 < skelterjohn> what is special about the new xcode?
03:32 < skelterjohn> and who needs a web framework?  =p
03:32 < steven> its UI is slightly new and novel
03:32 < steven> people like me who use rails all day and want to use go
instead of ruby
03:33 < steven> not that theres anythign wrong with ruby, its perfectly
fine.  but go is faster and more fun :)
03:33 < steven> and i cannot stand having to guess what type a param or
return value is :(
03:33 < skelterjohn> what would a framework offer beyond what http or web.go
provides?
03:33 < steven> have you ever used rails?
03:34 < skelterjohn> no
03:34 < skelterjohn> i'm not much on web dev in general
03:34 < steven> then i cant really explain it to you.
03:34 < skelterjohn> hah
03:34 < skelterjohn> that's quite a cop out
03:35 < steven> well i could
03:35 < steven> but im not that interested in this topic atm
03:36 < skelterjohn> "so, im thinking of writing a new web framework modeled
similarly to rails."
03:36 < skelterjohn> figured that meant you were interested in the topic
03:36 < skelterjohn> my mistake
03:36 < steven> i kinda wish this sqlite3 had tests.
03:36 < steven> *package
03:36 < steven> because i have to modify it but im afraid of breaking it
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03:47 <@adg> steven: write some tests, then
03:51 < skelterjohn> it wants me to install snow leopard to get xcode 4 :\
03:55 < skelterjohn> steven: I hope you didn't take my question about what a
framework would offer as confrontational
03:55 < skelterjohn> i really just wanted to know a bit more about it
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04:03 <@adg> skelterjohn, steven: i'm also interested
04:04 <@adg> i've used django quite extensively, and some other web
frameworks in a more distant past, but i don't do a lot of that anymore so i'd
like to get a better handle no what web devs do
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04:38 < steven> adg: maybe i will mister smarty pants
04:39 < steven> adg, skelterjohn: honestly, i dont like much of rails.  but
a lot of things, it does pretty well.
04:39 <@adg> steven: you should!  i always try to write tests before i go
modifying something i didn't write
04:39 < steven> for instance, the idea of /controller/method_name mapping to
a url
04:39 <@adg> and then you can contribute them upstream :)
04:40 < steven> ie, /posts/edit/42 will find a ruby class named Posts and
invoke the method "edit" on it, passing it the param 42
04:41 < steven> but the rest of the magic that ruby has is both a good and
bad thing
04:41 < steven> i love it because it makes common tasks waaaay easy, but i
hate it because it makes debugging hell and hard tasks not very easy.
04:41 < steven> er, *uncommon tasks not very easy
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04:54 < steven> hey guys
04:54 < steven> whats the makefile variable to add local .a files to when
you want to link against them?
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05:19 < krakensden> I have a question about using multiple return values as
arguments to functions
05:20 < krakensden> well, I guess that is my question- is there some way I
can go foo(bar()) given func foo(a int, b string) and func bar() (int, string)?
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05:21 < zozoR> try?
05:21 < krakensden> I ask because I'm trying to code golf some test files
05:22 < zozoR> golf?
05:22 < krakensden> zozoR: multiple-value foo() in single-value context
05:22 < exch> that sort of call doesn't work unfortunately
05:23 <@adg> steven: install them as steven/foo
05:23 < krakensden> zozoR: shrink in size.  The alternative is having tons
of temporary variables
05:23 < zozoR> well
05:23 < zozoR> i dont know, but i can try it out in about 30 seconds :P
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05:24 <@adg> krakensden: go is a bad language for code golf
05:24 <@adg> krakensden: so you won't have much luck, i'm afraid
05:24 < zozoR> apparently it works
05:25 <@adg> zozoR: what works?
05:25 < zozoR> what krakensden asked for
05:25 < krakensden> wait what?
05:25 < zozoR> "well, I guess that is my question- is there some way I can
go foo(bar()) given func foo(a int, b string) and func bar() (int, string"
05:25 <@adg> ah yes, that will work
05:26 <@adg> as long as the arguments match exactly
05:26 <@adg> also when the arguments are a ...T, as in fmt.Print and co,
it'll work
05:26 <@adg> eg http://goo.gl/gkwRP
05:26 < krakensden> that's actually what I have, ...interface{}
05:26 < krakensden> hmm
05:27 <@adg> but it must be the first and only argument
05:27 < krakensden> oh
05:27 < krakensden> yup, that would be it
05:40 < steven> krakensden: try this
05:40 < steven> foo(bar()...)
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07:46 < nickbp> http://twitpic.com/48dsb0
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08:20 < wrtp> nickbp: ?
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10:14 < iainmcgin> Hi, are any of the core google go team here just now?
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12:36 < zimsim> whats the expected output of 'if nil == nil {}'.  I got an
internal compiler error when I tried it out.
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12:54 < skelterjohn> i get a regular compile error when i try it
12:54 < skelterjohn> invalid operation: nil == nil (operator == not defined
on <nil>)
12:54 < skelterjohn> oh, too late
12:54 < skelterjohn> :\
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12:56 < nsf> looks like gc isn't object-oriented enough
12:56 < nsf> lol
12:56 < skelterjohn> ?
12:57 < nsf> doesn't understand nil == nil
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12:58 < nsf> nevermind, it was an unsuccessful try to make a joke
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13:06 < skelterjohn> :)
13:06 < skelterjohn> i thought you were talking about the garbage collector
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13:13 < nsf> GC is a garbage collector
13:13 < nsf> gc is a compiler
13:13 < nsf> :D
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13:15 < nsf> well, technically it's GC too
13:15 < nsf> Go Compiler
13:15 < nsf> but..
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13:48 < ww> ...  so 'round these parts we don't talk about garbage being
collected, we talk about buckets being lifted...  as in what time are the buckets
lifted?
13:48 < skelterjohn> steven: for linking local .a files, you can add a place
to search for them by saying GC += -I <dir> and LD += -L <dir>
13:48 < skelterjohn> or you can use gb
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14:03 < nsf> yay, my parser parses almost all expressions, and
type/import/const/var declarations
14:03 < nsf> so close..  and so boring
14:04 < nsf> I decided to go for a C feature set using Go-like syntax
14:05 < nsf> it will look like a C with Go syntax
14:05 < nsf> hm..
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14:07 < nsf> then I have plans to add direct C header import using libclang
14:07 < nsf> something like:
14:07 < nsf> import "SDL.h" flags("$(pkg-config --cflags sdl)");
14:07 < nsf> O_o
14:09 < nsf> it should be a killer feature definitely
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14:11 < nsf> and because it's not a preprocessor it will be possible to
force pch-like AST cache for each header/flags pair
14:11 < nsf> I think, hm..
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14:48 < ww> what do people typically use for configuration files?
14:49 < aiju> plain text
14:49 < aiju> a la INI
14:49 < nsf> there is no 'typically' for that
14:49 < ww> well, typically for go programs anyways
14:49 < nsf> something text based
14:50 < nsf> there are few libs
14:50 < zimsim> If there was a typically for config files my sysadmin time
would be reduced by a factor of 10
14:50 < rm445> json or gob would seem to be other likely choices
14:50 < nsf> yaml
14:50 < nsf> also
14:50 < nsf> or ini-like
14:50 < aiju> if you use ANY markup language for configuration, fuck
14:50 < nsf> but that's for complex cases
14:50 < nsf> which are rare
14:51 < steven> guys
14:51 < nsf> for example httpd config is a complex case usually :)
14:51 < steven> how do you convert a char* to a string?
14:51 < aiju> string(foo)?
14:51 < nsf> C.GoString(cstring)
14:51 < steven> oh thanks.
14:51 < steven> aiju: yeah tried it didnt work :(
14:52 < ww> rm445: json possibly....  want configs to be human editable so
gob not so good...
14:52 < nsf> ww: https://github.com/kless/goconfig
14:52 < aiju> why not just FUCKING INI FILES
14:53 < aiju> or ndb, which is ini files on steroid
14:53 < aiju> +s
14:53 < ww> ini files remind of windows?  :P
14:53 < nsf> windows doesn't use them anymore
14:53 < nsf> it's not cool anymore
14:53 < aiju> you have to store object oriented XML in a database
14:53 < nsf> in a registry
14:53 < nsf> lol
14:53 * ww shudders
14:54 < exch> ini files are simple and easy.  I love em :)
14:54 < aiju> XML configuration files are really fun
14:54 < exch> ><
14:54 < aiju> makes me want to punch the developer in the face
14:54 < rm445> ww: yeah, realised after I wrote that that a binary config
file is not a good idea.
14:55 * ww really doesn't need steroids
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14:55 < kimelto> something like Config::Scoped is good imho ;)
14:56 < steven> what happens when you do this?
14:56 < nsf> binary config format isn't a bad idea
14:56 < steven> var v interface{}; *v = "something"
14:56 < nsf> but it's not a good choice
14:57 < nsf> because you still need to have a text format for editing it or
a tool
14:57 < nsf> steven: compile error?
14:57 < ww> actually i like the bindesque config style with braces...  tbh
but can't be bothered making a parser for it
14:57 < steven> oh wait.
14:57 < steven> nevermind.
14:58 < nsf> :)
14:58 < steven> im doing *v inside a type assertion
14:58 < steven> where the type is *string
14:58 < steven> hehehe
14:58 * steven facepalms
14:59 * ww wonders...  maybe build a config parser as a subset of go using
http://golang.org/pkg/go/parser/
14:59 < nsf> ww: if there is no reason to have multilevel config format,
what's the point
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14:59 < nsf> ww: Go is a bad choice for a config format
14:59 < nsf> lua works better
14:59 < aiju> config files
14:59 < aiju> in
14:59 < aiju> lua
14:59 < ww> nsf: yeah you're probably right...
15:00 < aiju> i suppose writing them in C++
15:00 < nsf> aiju: it's nice, almost like ini
15:00 * ww just likes braces more than square brackest
15:00 < nsf> varX = 123
15:00 < nsf> group = { varY = 5, varZ = 6 }
15:00 < nsf> something like that
15:01 < ww> yeah
15:01 < exch> might as well use json then :p
15:01 < aiju> yeah ..  but there is ...  a programming language in there
15:01 < ww> like nginx or bind...
15:01 < nsf> aiju: in case you need something complex
15:01 < nsf> why not
15:01 < nsf> like glob or something
15:01 < nsf> you can always add a function
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15:02 * ww will probably use goconfig or something and hop over the rabbit hole
15:02 < nsf> also some people use lisp for configs
15:02 < nsf> GIMP for example
15:02 < nsf> :)
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15:03 < nsf> well, by lisp I mean s-exp notation in general
15:04 < nsf> pretty much a valid textual tree/list representation
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15:07 < nsf> anyways, I think we've made a clear point that there is no
'typically'
15:07 < nsf> just use whatever you like :D
15:08 < kimelto> to condlude my answer, there is no answer!
15:10 < ww> :}
15:13 < nsf> http://cloc.sourceforge.net/#Languages
15:14 < nsf> it was a surprise for me that cloc supports Go now
15:14 < aiju> wc -l supported Go from the very beginning
15:15 < nsf> :D
15:15 <+iant> since Go uses the same comment syntax as C++, I expect that
cloc also supported Go from the beginning
15:15 < nsf> well, there is one potential issue, but a minor one
15:15 < nsf> raw strings
15:16 <+iant> ah, true
15:16 < nsf> but I guess they are rare enough anyway
15:16 < nsf> won't break statistics
15:19 < wrtp> ww: when i've needed a config file format, i've just gone with
JSON because it was almost no effort.  not that i'm particularly keen on the
syntax.
15:21 < nsf> think about potential users :)
15:21 < exch> I did to at the start.  For some projects it makes sense.  If
some kind of hierarchy is important.
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15:21 < exch> For the rest I just use good old fashioned ini files now
15:21 < aiju> the config file hierarchy of ├╝beroptions and unteroptions
15:21 < nsf>
https://github.com/nsf/bmpanel2/blob/master/themes/alduin-glossy/theme
15:21 < nsf> for one of my projects I used format like that
15:22 < nsf> it was a bad decision
15:22 < nsf> still a lot of problems with tabs vs spaces
15:22 < nsf> although, I thought it's obvious
15:22 < nsf> not for everyone :(
15:22 < rm445> exch: this is a bit of a basic question, but how exactly do
you parse the ini files?
15:23 < ww> i guess i'll have some hierarchy but not very complex.  quite
doable with ini
15:23 < exch> rm445: with this https://github.com/jteeuwen/go-pkg-ini
15:23 < nsf> rm445: or this https://github.com/kless/goconfig
15:23 < nsf> there is a plenty of packages for ini-like configs
15:23 < rm445> thanks guys
15:24 * exch is gradually moving all his code over to a CC0 public domain license
15:24 < ww> yeah, just remindes me of windows 3.1
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15:25 < nsf> hm..  CC0
15:25 < nsf> never heard of it
15:25 < exch> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
15:26 < nsf> lol, a copyright license which means no copyright
15:26 < exch> gotta love copyright laws
15:26 < exch> it akso covers those cases where a country does not recognize
PD
15:26 < exch> *also
15:27 < nsf> yeah, I guess that's the reason why it exists in the first
place
15:27 < aiju> WTFPL is the one true license
15:27 < nsf> I like CC0
15:27 < nsf> I guess I'll move my projects too
15:27 < nsf> most of them are MIT/zlib anyway
15:27 < aiju> creative commons is too hipster ;P
15:28 < nsf> aiju: I like the design on their web page :D
15:28 < nsf> oops
15:28 < nsf> not on the main page though
15:29 < nsf> oh, wait
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15:29 < nsf> it's ugly
15:29 < nsf> :))
15:29 < aiju> i fucking hate this
15:29 < aiju> i write over 100 lines of ASM
15:29 < aiju> and it FUCKING WORKS
15:29 < aiju> there has to be some catch somewhere
15:29 < nsf> I guess I'll stay with MIT/zlib
15:30 < nsf> aiju: asm is simpler than C++
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15:30 < nsf> I write 10 lines of C++ and debug it all the night
15:30 < nsf> :)
15:31 < nsf> (joke, I'm not _that_ bad)
15:31 < nsf> ugh..  writing a parser is so boring
15:32 < aiju> yacc!
15:32 < nsf> I'm wondering how people actually write recursive descent
parsers by hand
15:32 < nsf> aiju: I'm using parser generator
15:32 < nsf> it's boring anyway..  making all the AST, etc.
15:32 < nsf> well..  I guess copying is boring
15:32 <+iant> I wrote a recursive descent parser for gccgo by hand
15:32 < nsf> and I'm mostly copying the Go grammar
15:33 < nsf> iant: yeah, I've seen your code
15:34 < nsf> iant: and also your code is extensively commented :)
15:34 < aiju> the steady state of comments is wrong
15:35 <+iant> geeze, that parser is 5000 lines
15:35 <+iant> maybe some day I will replace it with a yacc parser
15:35 < nsf> but I think it's very boring to write that kind of code like
iant's, I don't know
15:35 < nsf> a lot of one liner functions
15:35 < nsf> _a lot_
15:36 < nsf> hehe, I don't like yacc
15:36 < nsf> I use lemon parser generator
15:37 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1659922
15:37 < nsf> that's how it looks like
15:38 < skelterjohn> looks like yacc
15:38 < nsf> not really, lemon's grammar is simpler
15:38 < nsf> it doesn't have '|' (OR) notation
15:38 < nsf> I think it's closer to original BNF
15:38 < nsf> and actions are allowed only at the end of a rule statement
15:39 < skelterjohn> no | in bnf?
15:39 < nsf> skelterjohn: I think no
15:39 < nsf> ah, no
15:39 < nsf> it has |
15:39 < kimelto> it sure does.
15:39 < skelterjohn> not having | would be a huge pain
15:39 < nsf> skelterjohn: not really
15:40 < skelterjohn> means 2^X-1 more lines, where X is the number of "|"s
you wanted
15:40 < nsf> it's just a copy & paste
15:40 < skelterjohn> (A|B) (C|D) (E|F)
15:40 < nsf> most of the "|" are on a separate line anyway
15:40 < nsf> take a look at Go's yacc
15:40 < skelterjohn> "most" is irrelevant
15:40 < nsf> but I agree that lemon's grammar is kind of bad
15:41 < skelterjohn> who said that?  :)
15:41 < aiju> what's wrong with yacc
15:41 < nsf> it's not the best quality of the lemon
15:41 < nsf> lemon has proper destruction model for terminals and
non-terminals
15:41 < nsf> it generates defines for terminals automatically
15:41 < aiju> "destruction model"?
15:41 < nsf> it doesn't use global shared state (reentrant)
15:42 < nsf> aiju: yeah
15:42 < aiju> wtfi?
15:42 < nsf> like for example if your token is allocated on the heap
15:42 < nsf> and after popping it from the stack you need to call 'free'
15:42 <+iant> bison supports reentrant parsers these days, for what it's
worth
15:42 < nsf> iant: good then :)
15:42 < aiju> bison is a POS
15:43 < nsf> well, anyway, I don't know why I use lemon
15:43 < nsf> also in lemon lexer calls parser :)
15:43 < nsf> I think it's handy
15:43 < aiju> it's both wrong, they should be coroutines ;P
15:44 < skelterjohn> makes sense to me that the parser would make use of a
getNextToken() function
15:44 < nsf> named (non)terminals are nice too
15:44 < nsf> instead of $1 $2 $3
15:44 < rm445> skelterjohn: and that function should be called yylex()
15:44 < nsf> :D
15:44 < nsf> skelterjohn: lemon provides "Parse" function
15:44 < nsf> which takes next token :)
15:44 < skelterjohn> rm445: right.  i'm responding to nsf's and aiju's
assertions
15:45 < nsf> and well, there is one more tool which is very nice
15:45 < nsf> it's called ragel
15:45 < skelterjohn> nsf: well i guess if people usually write their own
tokenizers, it makes sense to provide the parser as a library instead of the lexer
as a framework
15:46 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1659958
15:46 < nsf> take a look
15:46 < skelterjohn> nsf: i get nothing from reading that
15:46 < nsf> it's basically a stub for a complete Go lexer :)
15:47 < nsf> with interpreted strings, etc.
15:47 < skelterjohn> go with the @ operator :)
15:47 < nsf> yeah, and -> for pointers
15:47 < nsf> '->' { tok_op(TOK_POINTERTO); };
15:47 < nsf> '@' { tok_op(TOK_AT); };
15:48 < nsf> ;)
15:48 < wrtp> nsf: goyacc is reentrant and has named nonterminals too
15:48 < nsf> I like how it's easy to make an interpreted of escaped strings
right in the lexer
15:48 < skelterjohn> i think ^ should be and, rather than &&
15:48 < nsf> skelterjohn: no thanks :)
15:48 < skelterjohn> and v should be or, instead of ||
15:48 < skelterjohn> then it would match logic notation
15:49 < aiju> gee
15:49 < nsf> I'm actually in doubt regarding '@'
15:49 < aiju> could you please stop this tinkering with syntax?  it
irritates me
15:49 < skelterjohn> keep it to yourself.  i'm clearly not serious.
15:50 < nsf> it's not like it's bad, at the moment I have no idea
15:50 < nsf> but my brain doesn't get it as easy as '->'
15:50 < nsf> I guess it's because there are very few programming languages
where @ is an actual token
15:51 < nsf> or I just don't use them
15:51 < nsf> hm..
15:51 < steven> what the crap is going on?
15:51 < nsf> steven: don't worry
15:52 < nsf> everything is ok :)
15:52 < nsf> I'm just reinventing C
15:52 < rm445> nsf: are you familiar with SPECS (significantly prettier and
easier C++ syntax)?
15:52 < nsf> rm445: nope
15:53 < nsf> func set_new_handler : (^(void->void) ->
^(void->void));
15:53 < nsf> omg
15:53 < nsf> is it easier?
15:53 < rm445> It's a revised syntax for C++ with comprehensible
declarations and a postfix pointer syntax.
15:53 < rm445> I'm not an expert on that type of thing but my understanding
is that it is demonstrably better than C++ syntax (but of course will never be
adopted by C++ itself(
15:53 < nsf> void->void is crazy
15:54 < rm445>
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/ModestProposal.html
15:54 < nsf> I like Go's syntax, you can read it very easily
15:54 < nsf> rm445: it's a good idea, but that syntax has garbage in it
apparently
15:54 < rm445> Go's left-to-right declarations are nice, I often surprise
myself by getting things right first time :-)
15:55 < aiju> 16:55 < rm445> It's a revised syntax for C++ with
comprehensible declarations and a postfix pointer syntax.
15:55 < nsf> C++: typedef int (*NumSrc)();
15:55 < nsf> C++New: type NumSrc : ^(void->int);
15:56 < aiju> just don't use C++.  period.
15:56 < nsf> Go: type NumSrc func() int;
15:56 < nsf> compare this
15:56 < skelterjohn> go wins
15:56 < nsf> exactly
15:56 < aiju> yuck
15:56 < skelterjohn> what's the ^ in C++New for - function?
15:56 < aiju> fucking inline assembly in that proposol
15:56 < aiju> *a
15:56 < nsf> it's pointer
15:56 < nsf> well in Go function is always a kind of a pointer
15:56 < nsf> but I could add:
15:56 < skelterjohn> the -> makes it a function?
15:56 < nsf> Go: type NumSrc *func() int;
15:57 < nsf> skelterjohn: I have no idea, weird stuff
15:57 < nsf> :D
15:57 < skelterjohn> it would make sense
15:57 < skelterjohn> math notation: A: B x C -> D
15:57 < nsf> ah
15:57 < skelterjohn> A is a function that takes a B and a C and gives you a
D
15:57 < aiju> what's the syntax for a protected abstract virtual base pure
virtual private destructor?
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15:57 < aiju> Haskell also has ->
15:57 < rm445> skelterjohn: it's a pointer, I think the key thing is it's a
postfix not prefix operator, making dereferencing syntax cleaner.
15:57 < aiju> foo :: Integer -> Integer or something
15:57 < nsf> skelterjohn: well, I know no math
15:57 < nsf> :D
15:58 < nsf> rm445: pointer type is declared using prefix notation anyway
15:59 < nsf> but dereference is postfix, yeah
15:59 < aiju> blah
15:59 < nsf> frankly I don't think it's a good idea
15:59 < nsf> skelterjohn: yay
15:59 < aiju> the whole proposal seems like a proposal to release Mein Kampf
with a nicer font
15:59 < nsf> SPECS uses @ for deref too
16:00 < aiju> what's wrong with *
16:00 < nsf> but a postfix one
16:00 < nsf> ref@
16:00 < nsf> wtf
16:00 < aiju> "uuuuh C has it, C sucks, so it must suck, let's choose
something really funny"
16:00 < rm445> no @ is the addressof operator (&)
16:00 < nsf> rm445: ah, yes
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16:00 < nsf> my bad, sorry
16:00 < nsf> lol
16:01 < nsf> SPECS proposes '=' for boolean equality and ':=' for assignment
16:01 < nsf> no one will use it
16:01 < nsf> just for the sake of keeping habits
16:01 < nsf> yeah, I guess SPECS has influence from math background
16:02 < mpl> and what would become of the current := ?
16:02 < nsf> which doesn't work for programmers
16:02 < nsf> mpl: in C++ there is no :=
16:02 < nsf> SPECS is a new C++ syntax, not Go's
16:02 < skelterjohn> == and = is well known and perfectly readable, no need
to change that
16:02 < skelterjohn> they should focus on things that need fixing
16:02 < rm445> true, some of the proposals are a bit out there.  Personally
if I ever design a language I might well go with := for assignment and == for
equality.
16:02 < mpl> nsf: ah, sorry, I just jumped into the discussion and thought
you were speaking of go :)
16:02 < nsf> mpl: :D
16:02 < rm445> It's a bit programmer-in-a-straitjacket but it eliminates the
= vs := vs == argument entirely.
16:02 < nsf> mpl: we're discussing syntax in general
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16:03 < ww> rm445: don't forget =:=
16:03 < nsf> skelterjohn: I think Go has a very nice approach for syntax
16:03 < nsf> devs understand that there are existing programming languages
16:03 < nsf> and making something really different is not a good idea
16:03 < nsf> but few improvements here and there are ok
16:03 < skelterjohn> i just mean as far as "fixing C++ syntax".  they should
only fix the bits that are broken
16:03 < nsf> exactly
16:03 < skelterjohn> a new language with new operators is fine
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16:04 < nsf> well, I'm trying to fix C too, but with entierly different
syntax
16:04 < nsf> although it's not that far from C
16:04 < nsf> and even closer to Go
16:04 < nsf> no, it's just a modified Go actually :)
16:05 < nsf> but..  I think it's a reasonable thing to do
16:05 < ww> well go is utf-8 right?  so we can use things like pulling from
http://bitbucket.org/okfn/openbiblio
16:05 < ww> searching for changes
16:05 < ww> no changes found
16:05 < aiju> 17:05 < rm445> It's a bit programmer-in-a-straitjacket
but it eliminates the = vs := vs == argument entirely.
16:05 < ww> oops wrong paste...
16:05 < aiju> do it like B
16:06 < aiju> = vs == based on context
16:06 < aiju> oh wait, i think that was BCPL
16:06 < nsf> aiju: :D
16:06 < ww> meant to paste some clever math operators
16:06 < nsf> ww: yeah, we've seen a lot of unicode symbols
16:06 < aiju> if people start mixing up math and programming, i'll begin
mixing up chemistry and programming
16:06 < nsf> the problem is that they are not available on the keyboard :D
16:06 < aiju> i'll add benzene to my data structures
16:06 < aiju> and add operators for nucleophilic subsitution
16:06 < aiju> +t
16:07 < skelterjohn> i don't know why you think math and programming are so
different
16:07 < exch> we already mix neuroscience with programming in AI, so why
not?  :p
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16:07 < skelterjohn> exch: neural nets have nothing to do with actual brains
16:07 < aiju> 17:09 < skelterjohn> i don't know why you think math and
programming are so different
16:07 < aiju> math doesn't have state
16:08 < nsf> skelterjohn: math is about talking with other math guys,
programming is about talking with the computer
16:08 < aiju> math is descriptive
16:08 < aiju> x┬▓ = 5 is perfectly fine for describing x in math
16:08 < aiju> and perfectly useless for describing x in programming
16:08 < skelterjohn> math is about expressing abstract ideas
16:08 < skelterjohn> programming is about expressing a kind of abstract idea
16:08 < skelterjohn> chemistry is a physical science
16:09 < nsf> the main problem here is our keyboard anyway
16:09 < ww> moar group theory (cf generics)
16:09 < nsf> you just can't write stuff from math using keyboard
16:09 < skelterjohn> nsf: we could always have our IDEs recognize latex
16:09 < skelterjohn> \alpha \leftarrow \beta + 1
16:09 < aiju> x=x+1 or x:=x+1 doesn't make ANY sense in math
16:09 < nsf> yeah, but you know what Rob Pike and team think about IDE
16:09 < exch> direct brian input would could do wonders, or cause mayhem.
random stray thoughts of women in bikini's can make spend the next three days
debugging your code
16:09 < nsf> I share their idea
16:09 < skelterjohn> aiju: that's because equality is not assignment
16:10 < skelterjohn> in math, you'd write x <- x + 1
16:10 < aiju> there is no assignment in math
16:10 < skelterjohn> you are flat out wrong
16:10 < aiju> x <- x+1 is just as meaningless
16:10 < skelterjohn> algorithmic theory is definitely a part of math
16:10 < aiju> that's a part of CS :P
16:10 < skelterjohn> now you are drawing an artificial distinction
16:11 < ww> aiju has very definite theories about the boundaries between
disciplines
16:11 < skelterjohn> CS is the math that computers are really good at doing.
that's all.
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16:12 < skelterjohn> when they teach you how to solve systems of linear
equations in math class, is that math or computer science?
16:12 < aiju> the mathematical way to look at an algorithm is expressing it
as a series
16:12 < skelterjohn> or do they just say if Ax=b, then x = A^-1 B
16:12 < aiju> x_(n+1) = x_n + 1
16:13 < skelterjohn> in CS, when you say x = x+1, you are just saying x,
after this instruction executes, is one more than it was before
16:13 < Namegduf> Programming and most math mean different things by =
16:14 < skelterjohn> the distinction between that and what you said is
meaningless
16:14 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: vocabulary, not idea
16:14 < Namegduf> Programming languages regularly use = for assignment, much
math uses it for definition
16:14 < aiju> equality!
16:14 < Namegduf> That's exactly my point.
16:14 < nsf> oh, btw, I was wrong about my lexer being a stub Go lexer
16:14 < nsf> I don't use utf-8
16:14 < Namegduf> Recursive definitions are not massively helpful, so where
= means definition, x = x+1 isn't massively useful.
16:15 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: fixed point problems
16:15 < Namegduf> I wouldn't say that either area exclusively uses it to
mean either assignment or definition, though.  There's obviously declarative
languages out there.
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16:15 < aiju> there is no purely declarative language yet, at least i
haven't heard of one
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16:16 < nsf> aiju: and that's a proof why math doesn't work for programming
16:16 < aiju> yup
16:16 < skelterjohn> that is idiotic
16:16 < skelterjohn> i don't mean to offend
16:16 < skelterjohn> but this is silly
16:16 < aiju> mixing up math and programming?  yes, yes it is
16:16 < Namegduf> My point is that = is just being used as notation for two
different things
16:17 < nsf> I don't mean to offend anyone too, I just hate haskell and
functional friends
16:17 < nsf> :)
16:17 < aiju> haha
16:17 < skelterjohn> pretending that there is a distinct line between math
and programming
16:17 < Namegduf> You can't use it like you would with one thing with the
other.
16:17 < rm445> I agree with skelterjohn.
16:17 < Namegduf> But it doesn't say anything about math vs programming,
it's just two different meanings for one symbol.
16:17 < nsf> skelterjohn: I'd say they have different notations
16:17 < nsf> but share ideas and entities
16:17 < aiju> math and programming are entirely different ways of thinking
16:18 < Namegduf> "math" has lots of subareas with different notations
16:18 < skelterjohn> aiju: math has many entirely different ways of thinking
16:18 < Namegduf> It's like one huge horrible programming language in which
people invent their own syntax at whim
16:18 < aiju> Namegduf: hahahaha
16:18 < aiju> it's not as bad as physics
16:18 < aiju> where different, conflicting syntaxes can be used in one
equation
16:19 < nsf> try parse that, C++ suckers
16:19 < nsf> lol
16:19 < aiju> i have seen equations where e meant *both* the euler number
and the elementary charge
16:19 < aiju> yeah, C++ is NOTHING to that
16:21 < nsf> let's talk about meta-programming
16:21 < nsf> :D
16:21 < Namegduf> Let's *not*.
16:21 < nsf> hehehe
16:21 < aiju> awk ' /meta/ { print "BULLSHIT" } '
16:21 < Namegduf> XD
16:21 < aiju> an awk program for dealing with this things
16:21 < Namegduf> aiju: But what about OO metaclasses?
16:22 < aiju> although actually metaprogramming can be helpful
16:22 < aiju> it just seems like nobody is doing it right
16:22 < aiju> sed/awk is the way to go!
16:22 < Namegduf> Haha.
16:22 < wrtp> when it comes to meta programming, lisp is king
16:23 < aiju> i wouldn't read lisp programs
16:23 < aiju> it's impossible
16:23 < nsf> I think the main problem with templates/operator
overloading/preprocessor that it all changes semantics of the underlying language
16:23 < Namegduf> Lisp: The only functional language in which it's even
easier to get weird action at a distance than C.
16:23 < aiju> no lexical transparency
16:23 < aiju> and they are PROUD OF IT
16:23 < nsf> it's like adding a slang to a natural language
16:23 < aiju> there are few LISP programs
16:23 < aiju> rather most programs derive their own language from LISP
16:24 < wrtp> lisp's not too bad when you get your head around it.  it's
just that common lisp is incredibly baroque
16:24 < nsf> some do understand it, but most of the people don't
16:24 < aiju> i can read it
16:24 < Namegduf> I spent three hours debugging a case in which state was
accidentally shared between two trees in Lisp
16:24 < aiju> it just takes an eternity to get my head around ten layers of
macros
16:24 < Namegduf> And mutating one was mutating the other
16:25 < Namegduf> I think it has passed the point at which I can consider it
"not too bad".
16:26 * nsf wants templates in his language
16:27 < nsf> but something very restricted
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16:27 < mpl> well, there's the template package already ;P
16:27 * mpl hides
16:27 < Namegduf> I honestly think Go would benefit more than suffer from
parametric types expanded at compile time if it was horribly unidiomatic to use
them where they can be avoided.
16:27 < nsf> no, not like that
16:27 < mpl> nsf: I know.  you mean the c++ thing :)
16:27 < nsf> yeah, I like std::vector
16:27 < Namegduf> But I'm not the best person to make that judgement.
16:28 < nsf> I like generic max and min functions
16:28 < nsf> but something more is kind of horrible
16:28 < Namegduf> Yeah.
16:28 < aiju> generic min and max is useless without operator overlaoding
16:28 < aiju> *oad
16:28 < mpl> nsf: you think horribly unidiomatic ever stopped ppl for using
anything?  :)
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16:28 < mpl> Namegduf: ^
16:28 < nsf> mpl: I've seen C++ template metaprogramming
16:29 < nsf> it's very hard to write that kind of code
16:29 < nsf> and still people do
16:29 < mpl> exactly.
16:29 < mpl> if it's there, ppl will use it.
16:29 < mpl> and will use it badly.
16:29 < nsf> well, but there are other forms of restrictions
16:29 < Namegduf> Yeah, but those people are already trying to write OO code
in Go.
16:29 < nsf> for example I can say that templates are always inlined
16:29 < Namegduf> Their code is already useless.
16:30 < aiju> templates lead to crap like STL
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16:30 < nsf> or..  I don't know
16:30 < nsf> always-inline kind of rule actually solves another problem
16:30 < nsf> with template instantiation
16:31 < nsf> but I bet it won't stop people from writing crazy stuff
16:31 < nsf> and bloating their code
16:32 < aiju> nothing can stop people from bloating their code
16:32 < aiju> not even thumb screws
16:32 < nsf> aiju: why min and max is useless without operator overloading?
16:32 < nsf> it works for float, int :)
16:32 < aiju> yeah .....
16:33 < nsf> and that's all I need :)
16:33 < nsf> but there are other cases of that kind of generic code
16:33 < mpl> aiju: you should write a tool integrated with the go compiler
than uninstalls the go compiler when it finds some stupid stuff in the
programmer's code, with a bye bye message such as "please, go use c++ instead".
16:33 < aiju> mpl: rather wipe the hard disk
16:33 < skelterjohn> aiju: make sure you test it first to make sure it works
16:33 < nsf> also there is a problem with generic functions
16:33 < mpl> lol
16:34 < nsf> that they require name mangling
16:34 < aiju> well, i have enough spare machines
16:34 < nsf> unless they are always being inlined
16:34 < skelterjohn> nsf: not if they use pointers under the hood
16:34 < nsf> and I think inlining here is a good idea, because basically we
want to provide a type-safe preprocessor kind of thing
16:34 < nsf> skelterjohn: that will be an unfortunate case
16:35 < skelterjohn> if we're talking about go, don't hold your breath
waiting for a preprocessor
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16:35 < nsf> I'm talking about abstract generics feature
16:35 < nsf> not a C++ one
16:35 < nsf> oh, I don't need a preprocessor for Go
16:35 < aiju> there is sed
16:35 < nsf> but for C, I don't know
16:35 < Namegduf> sed is the ultimate preprocessor.
16:35 < nsf> I don't like preprocessor based module system :D and I will get
rid of that
16:36 < nsf> lol, I have C code where I use m4
16:36 < aiju> i still think that C #include beats most other system
16:36 < Namegduf> Preprocessor based module system?
16:36 < nsf> for generating C code :D
16:36 < aiju> +s
16:36 < nsf> Namegduf: includes hell I mean
16:36 < aiju> #include is simply and predictable
16:36 < aiju> *e
16:36 < Namegduf> Oh, I see.
16:36 < skelterjohn> aiju: except when a #define from one file messes up
things that happen in another
16:36 < nsf> yeah, we need separate namespaces for modules
16:37 < aiju> i never had any problem with #include
16:37 < skelterjohn> well, simple and predictable for a computer.  less so
for humans.
16:37 < aiju> i see the benefit of Go modules
16:37 < aiju> i also like them
16:37 < aiju> takling mainly about non-Go systems ;P
16:37 < nsf> I have an idea of mixing both
16:37 < nsf> and since I want to fix C, I will support C headers directly
16:38 < aiju> most people abuse #include horribly
16:38 < aiju> all that #ifndef crap
16:39 < aiju> basically #include files should not include other include
files
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16:39 < nsf> aiju: which is unrealistic
16:39 < aiju> but people want lobotomized flatworms to use their #include
files
16:39 < aiju> blargh
16:39 < nsf> unless you're using plan9
16:39 < nsf> :D
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18:37 < ptrb> if I've got "list []string", what's the best-practice
equivalent to "-".join(list) in python?
18:37 < dfr|work> ptrb, strings.Join i think
18:37 < ptrb> fuck, nevermind
18:38 < ptrb> yeah
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21:00 < consumer> Hello
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21:00 < consumer> are the tutorials on the Go website available as PDF files
for printing?
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21:03 <+iant> consumer: they are written in straight HTML, so, no, not
really
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21:03 <+iant> I mean, you could turn the HTML into PDF easily enough
21:04 < aiju> last time i checked browsers had print buttons
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21:04 < consumer> last time I used browsers print buttons, they cut off the
text and did some nasty stuff to the formatting
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21:09 < skelterjohn> consumer: print to PDF, if you're on a mac
21:10 < skelterjohn> it will look just like it did in the browser, and you
can be sure of how it will turn out in the printer
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21:11 < skelterjohn> macs use pdf as an underlying display layer
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21:17 < steven> consumer: yeah just get a mac
21:17 < steven> saves you a lot of headache.
21:17 < skelterjohn> it's possible he already had one :)
21:18 < steven> thats why everyone uses macs always
21:18 < steven> no its not.
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21:18 < steven> otherwise he would be like "whoa everythings awesome i win
life" and would quit irc
21:18 < skelterjohn> steven: did you see my note about how to link other
local pkgs?
21:18 < skelterjohn> in irc
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questa leva che succ...]
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23:49 < iainmcgin> hi andrew / ian, are you around just now?
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23:50 < iainmcgin> regardless, i'll write some stuff and maybe you'll see it
at some point :)
23:51 < iainmcgin> I have applied for an internship with google in the US
and passed by technical interviews, and i'm now looking for a project and team
23:52 < iainmcgin> google go is interesting to me, and I was looking to get
a feel for what the team is like, what you guys are working on just now and
whether you have room for an intern for the summer
23:53 < iainmcgin> i've emailed rob pike introducing myself, but I've really
no idea what the structure of the team is right now and whether he is the right
person to have contacted
23:54 < iainmcgin> anyway, my name is Iain McGinniss, I'm a PhD student at
the University of Glasgow and if you are at all interested in speaking to me then
please do contact me (iainmcg@dcs.gla.ac.uk) and perhaps we can speak more
privately
23:54 < iainmcgin> thanks!
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 12 00:00:55 2011