--- Log opened Fri Mar 11 00:00:55 2011 00:01 -!- Venom_X [~pjacobs@66.54.185.133] has quit [Quit: Venom_X] 00:05 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-xzrdaashtoomqymm] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:13 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@219.145.57.124] has joined #go-nuts 00:27 -!- _DerHorst_ [~Horst@e176099031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:30 -!- _Horst_ [~Horst@e176101127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:31 -!- DerHorst [~Horst@e176101172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:32 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055110140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:33 -!- _DerHorst_ [~Horst@e176099031.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:36 -!- Vaizrix [~Vaizrix@5ad65439.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:37 -!- tvw [~tv@e176005253.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37 -!- Vaizrix [~Vaizrix@5ad65439.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.186.195] has joined #go-nuts 00:37 -!- Xurix [~Vaizrix@5ad65439.bb.sky.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:39 -!- Xurix [~Vaizrix@5ad65439.bb.sky.com] has left #go-nuts [] 00:41 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:48 -!- ronny [~quassel@p4FF1C53F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 00:55 -!- itrekkie [~itrekkie@ip72-211-129-122.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: itrekkie] 00:56 -!- nettok_ [~quassel@200.119.176.160] has joined #go-nuts 00:59 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.186.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:04 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@219.145.57.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:09 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@219.137.72.94] has joined #go-nuts 01:20 -!- pilgrum [~pilgrum@cpe-67-49-71-222.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:21 -!- saturnfive [~saturnfiv@210.74.155.131] has joined #go-nuts 01:33 -!- Guest87951 [~quassel@p4FF1C53F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.173.92] has joined #go-nuts 01:45 -!- nettok_ [~quassel@200.119.176.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:49 -!- nettok_ [~quassel@200.119.190.45] has joined #go-nuts 01:50 -!- nettok [~quassel@200.119.173.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:58 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:59 -!- jgonzalez [~jgonzalez@173-14-137-134-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:01 -!- amacleod [~amacleod@pool-98-110-200-219.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:03 -!- _DerHorst_ [~Horst@e176105162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 02:05 -!- creack [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:06 -!- _Horst_ [~Horst@e176101127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:10 -!- _DerHorst_ [~Horst@e176105162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 02:26 -!- jedws [~jwesleysm@c114-77-210-9.rivrw3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: jedws] 02:30 -!- pjm0616 [~user@sigfpe-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:35 -!- creack [~charme_g@163.5.84.215] has joined #go-nuts 02:38 -!- MizardX [MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:40 -!- amacleod [~amacleod@pool-98-110-200-219.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #go-nuts 02:50 -!- FAF [~FAF@modemcable233.227-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #go-nuts 02:51 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:55 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #go-nuts 02:56 < steven> hi 02:56 < steven> <3 02:57 -!- nettok_ [~quassel@200.119.190.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:00 < skelterjohn> hello 03:05 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:08 < steven> if you convert a value to an interface type, does that create a sort of almost "pointer" type wrapper around the initial value? 03:12 < skelterjohn> depends on the size of the value 03:12 < skelterjohn> i think if it can fit in a word, it will just be part of the interface value 03:13 < skelterjohn> if it is too big, an allocation on the heap will be made and the interface will point to it 03:14 < steven> oh. i read this and got confused then: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5033605/common-programming-mistakes-for-go-developers-to-avoid/5044201#5044201 03:15 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:17 < skelterjohn> in that example, if you pass a *nexter you can modify what the nexter's value is in the other function 03:17 < skelterjohn> so, it's not without use, but it's usually not what the programmer means 03:20 < steven> so what happens when you have "a := 42; var b interface{}; b = a" ? 03:20 < steven> i know that a and b are two different types, int and interface{} 03:20 < steven> but, 03:20 < steven> what does that mean in terms of their actual value? 03:20 -!- JusticeFries_ [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:21 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@174-21-170-157.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:21 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@174-21-170-157.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:21 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts 03:22 < steven> whoa! 03:22 < steven> wait a second! 03:22 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:22 < steven> why is it that when you do "var a SomeStruct", type of a is now "*main.SomeStruct"? 03:23 < steven> why is it suddenly a pointer? 03:23 < skelterjohn> why do you think it is 03:23 < exch> Because you declared it to be that type 03:23 < steven> i did "var a SomeStruct", not "var a *SomeStruct" 03:24 < exch> ah right 03:24 < skelterjohn> steven: why do you say it is *main.SomeStruct? 03:24 < exch> that seems unlikely 03:24 < steven> thats what %T prints out in fmt.Printf 03:24 < skelterjohn> ah 03:24 < skelterjohn> when you pass something to a fmt function, it gets passed as an interface 03:25 < skelterjohn> and an interface is a set size - so it uses pointers to what you turn into that interface 03:25 < skelterjohn> i worded that a bit awkwardly, let me know if it made sense 03:26 < steven> well, 03:27 < skelterjohn> huh - steven... 03:27 < steven> i think what you are saying is, when you convert something to an interface type, it really gets the pointer to that value, right? 03:27 < steven> yes? 03:27 < skelterjohn> I do fmt.Printf("%T\n", A{}) 03:27 < skelterjohn> and i get main.A 03:27 < steven> hmm 03:27 < steven> do var a A, then pass a 03:27 < skelterjohn> still main.A 03:28 < steven> ooooh SNAP 03:28 < steven> that was stupid of me. 03:28 < skelterjohn> but the interface still contains a pointer 03:28 < skelterjohn> but it makes sense that fmt would know how to interpret it 03:29 < steven> so when you convert something to an interface, it creates a pointer to your value behind the scenes and wraps that around some concrete interface type? 03:29 < skelterjohn> not to your value 03:29 < steven> ie InterfaceType 03:29 < skelterjohn> if you assign a value to an interface, it has to copy that value to somewhere you don't know abuot 03:29 < steven> oh. 03:29 < skelterjohn> so if you modify what's in the interface it won't affect the original data 03:31 < steven> man the new xcode's kinda cool not gonna lie 03:31 < steven> so, im thinking of writing a new web framework modeled similarly to rails. 03:31 < steven> in Go 03:32 < skelterjohn> what is special about the new xcode? 03:32 < skelterjohn> and who needs a web framework? =p 03:32 < steven> its UI is slightly new and novel 03:32 < steven> people like me who use rails all day and want to use go instead of ruby 03:33 < steven> not that theres anythign wrong with ruby, its perfectly fine. but go is faster and more fun :) 03:33 < steven> and i cannot stand having to guess what type a param or return value is :( 03:33 < skelterjohn> what would a framework offer beyond what http or web.go provides? 03:33 < steven> have you ever used rails? 03:34 < skelterjohn> no 03:34 < skelterjohn> i'm not much on web dev in general 03:34 < steven> then i cant really explain it to you. 03:34 < skelterjohn> hah 03:34 < skelterjohn> that's quite a cop out 03:35 < steven> well i could 03:35 < steven> but im not that interested in this topic atm 03:36 < skelterjohn> "so, im thinking of writing a new web framework modeled similarly to rails." 03:36 < skelterjohn> figured that meant you were interested in the topic 03:36 < skelterjohn> my mistake 03:36 < steven> i kinda wish this sqlite3 had tests. 03:36 < steven> *package 03:36 < steven> because i have to modify it but im afraid of breaking it 03:43 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.149.43] has joined #go-nuts 03:47 <@adg> steven: write some tests, then 03:51 < skelterjohn> it wants me to install snow leopard to get xcode 4 :\ 03:55 < skelterjohn> steven: I hope you didn't take my question about what a framework would offer as confrontational 03:55 < skelterjohn> i really just wanted to know a bit more about it 03:58 -!- gogogrrl_ [~max@p5DE8FB61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:01 -!- gogogrrl [~max@p5DE8E3A4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:03 <@adg> skelterjohn, steven: i'm also interested 04:04 <@adg> i've used django quite extensively, and some other web frameworks in a more distant past, but i don't do a lot of that anymore so i'd like to get a better handle no what web devs do 04:15 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:24 -!- foocraft [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:25 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: JusticeFries] 04:33 -!- niemeyer_away [~niemeyer@201-40-152-213.pltce701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:35 -!- foocraft [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has joined #go-nuts 04:38 < steven> adg: maybe i will mister smarty pants 04:39 < steven> adg, skelterjohn: honestly, i dont like much of rails. but a lot of things, it does pretty well. 04:39 <@adg> steven: you should! i always try to write tests before i go modifying something i didn't write 04:39 < steven> for instance, the idea of /controller/method_name mapping to a url 04:39 <@adg> and then you can contribute them upstream :) 04:40 < steven> ie, /posts/edit/42 will find a ruby class named Posts and invoke the method "edit" on it, passing it the param 42 04:41 < steven> but the rest of the magic that ruby has is both a good and bad thing 04:41 < steven> i love it because it makes common tasks waaaay easy, but i hate it because it makes debugging hell and hard tasks not very easy. 04:41 < steven> er, *uncommon tasks not very easy 04:44 -!- FAF [~FAF@modemcable233.227-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: FAF] 04:54 < steven> hey guys 04:54 < steven> whats the makefile variable to add local .a files to when you want to link against them? 04:59 -!- ExtraSpice [XtraSpice@78-62-101-194.static.zebra.lt] has joined #go-nuts 05:17 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 05:19 < krakensden> I have a question about using multiple return values as arguments to functions 05:20 < krakensden> well, I guess that is my question- is there some way I can go foo(bar()) given func foo(a int, b string) and func bar() (int, string)? 05:21 -!- eikenberry [~jae@ivanova.zhar.net] has quit [Quit: End of line.] 05:21 < zozoR> try? 05:21 < krakensden> I ask because I'm trying to code golf some test files 05:22 < zozoR> golf? 05:22 < krakensden> zozoR: multiple-value foo() in single-value context 05:22 < exch> that sort of call doesn't work unfortunately 05:23 <@adg> steven: install them as steven/foo 05:23 < krakensden> zozoR: shrink in size. The alternative is having tons of temporary variables 05:23 < zozoR> well 05:23 < zozoR> i dont know, but i can try it out in about 30 seconds :P 05:23 -!- iant [~iant@216.239.45.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24 <@adg> krakensden: go is a bad language for code golf 05:24 <@adg> krakensden: so you won't have much luck, i'm afraid 05:24 < zozoR> apparently it works 05:25 <@adg> zozoR: what works? 05:25 < zozoR> what krakensden asked for 05:25 < krakensden> wait what? 05:25 < zozoR> "well, I guess that is my question- is there some way I can go foo(bar()) given func foo(a int, b string) and func bar() (int, string" 05:25 <@adg> ah yes, that will work 05:26 <@adg> as long as the arguments match exactly 05:26 <@adg> also when the arguments are a ...T, as in fmt.Print and co, it'll work 05:26 <@adg> eg http://goo.gl/gkwRP 05:26 < krakensden> that's actually what I have, ...interface{} 05:26 < krakensden> hmm 05:27 <@adg> but it must be the first and only argument 05:27 < krakensden> oh 05:27 < krakensden> yup, that would be it 05:40 < steven> krakensden: try this 05:40 < steven> foo(bar()...) 05:42 -!- fabled [~fabled@mail.fi.jw.org] has joined #go-nuts 05:43 -!- iant [~iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:43 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 05:48 -!- toyoshim_ [~toyoshim@y253149.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:50 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-iyqrlzuvwqvkoubj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:52 -!- foocraft [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:55 -!- foocraft [~dsc@89.211.254.177] has joined #go-nuts 05:56 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 06:06 -!- arvindht [c2ed8e14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.237.142.20] has joined #go-nuts 06:22 -!- vsayer [~vivek@2001:470:1f04:1a6b:21a:6bff:fe35:d2a5] has joined #go-nuts 06:50 -!- dfc [~dfc@sydfibre2.atlassian.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:04 -!- visof [~visof@41.238.233.151] has joined #go-nuts 07:04 -!- visof [~visof@41.238.233.151] has quit [Changing host] 07:04 -!- visof [~visof@unaffiliated/visof] has joined #go-nuts 07:13 -!- gstrock [~gstrock@adsl-75-22-61-157.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:15 -!- ios_ [~ios@180.191.137.243] has joined #go-nuts 07:27 -!- fzzbt [~fzzbt@a88-112-9-20.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 07:40 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.16.113.213] has joined #go-nuts 07:40 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@186.215.1.55] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:46 < nickbp> http://twitpic.com/48dsb0 07:50 -!- unofficialmvp [~dev@94-62-164-227.b.ipv4ilink.net] has joined #go-nuts 07:51 -!- unofficialmvp [~dev@94-62-164-227.b.ipv4ilink.net] has left #go-nuts [] 07:52 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has joined #go-nuts 07:54 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.161.246] has joined #go-nuts 08:01 -!- itrekkie [~itrekkie@ip70-190-110-197.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:05 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:06 -!- itrekkie [~itrekkie@ip70-190-110-197.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: itrekkie] 08:12 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has joined #go-nuts 08:20 < wrtp> nickbp: ? 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I got an internal compiler error when I tried it out. 12:36 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.98.128] has joined #go-nuts 12:40 -!- rup [~rupert@deathknight.net] has joined #go-nuts 12:44 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.98.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.16.113.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:54 -!- zimsim [~simon@87.72.77.195] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:54 < skelterjohn> i get a regular compile error when i try it 12:54 < skelterjohn> invalid operation: nil == nil (operator == not defined on <nil>) 12:54 < skelterjohn> oh, too late 12:54 < skelterjohn> :\ 12:54 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.3.222] has joined #go-nuts 12:55 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.98.128] has joined #go-nuts 12:56 < nsf> looks like gc isn't object-oriented enough 12:56 < nsf> lol 12:56 < skelterjohn> ? 12:57 < nsf> doesn't understand nil == nil 12:57 -!- nictuku [~nictuku@unaffiliated/nictuku] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:57 -!- nictuku [~nictuku@cetico.org] has joined #go-nuts 12:58 < nsf> nevermind, it was an unsuccessful try to make a joke 13:01 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.98.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06 < skelterjohn> :) 13:06 < skelterjohn> i thought you were talking about the garbage collector 13:07 -!- tensai_cirno [~cirno@77.232.15.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11 -!- Zoope- [alsbergt@zoopee.org] has joined #go-nuts 13:13 < nsf> GC is a garbage collector 13:13 < nsf> gc is a compiler 13:13 < nsf> :D 13:13 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14 -!- krakensd1n [~krakensde@li221-186.members.linode.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:15 < nsf> well, technically it's GC too 13:15 < nsf> Go Compiler 13:15 < nsf> but.. 13:15 -!- Zoopee [alsbergt@zoopee.org] has quit [Quit: Ejected] 13:15 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:15 -!- xyproto [~alexander@77.40.159.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:15 -!- krakensden [~krakensde@li221-186.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:15 -!- rup [~rupert@deathknight.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has joined #go-nuts 13:16 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has quit [Changing host] 13:16 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has joined #go-nuts 13:18 -!- lmoura [~lauromour@187.113.102.36] has joined #go-nuts 13:20 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22 -!- jgonzalez [~jgonzalez@173-14-137-134-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:22 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has joined #go-nuts 13:22 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has joined #go-nuts 13:22 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has quit [Changing host] 13:22 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has joined #go-nuts 13:24 -!- rup [~rupert@deathknight.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:27 -!- MizardX [~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:28 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56346ed3.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #go-nuts 13:29 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has joined #go-nuts 13:39 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:43 -!- xyproto [~alexander@77.40.159.131] has joined #go-nuts 13:44 -!- fzzbt [~fzzbt@a88-112-9-20.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:47 -!- exch [~exch@h78233.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:48 < ww> ... so 'round these parts we don't talk about garbage being collected, we talk about buckets being lifted... as in what time are the buckets lifted? 13:48 < skelterjohn> steven: for linking local .a files, you can add a place to search for them by saying GC += -I <dir> and LD += -L <dir> 13:48 < skelterjohn> or you can use gb 13:51 -!- ww [~ww@river.styx.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53 -!- ww [~ww@river.styx.org] has joined #go-nuts 13:53 -!- pilgrum [~pilgrum@cpe-67-49-71-222.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57 -!- skejoe [~skejoe@188.114.142.162] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:59 -!- exch [~exch@h78233.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 14:03 < nsf> yay, my parser parses almost all expressions, and type/import/const/var declarations 14:03 < nsf> so close.. and so boring 14:04 < nsf> I decided to go for a C feature set using Go-like syntax 14:05 < nsf> it will look like a C with Go syntax 14:05 < nsf> hm.. 14:05 -!- mertimor [~Adium@p5DC1D9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:07 < nsf> then I have plans to add direct C header import using libclang 14:07 < nsf> something like: 14:07 < nsf> import "SDL.h" flags("$(pkg-config --cflags sdl)"); 14:07 < nsf> O_o 14:09 < nsf> it should be a killer feature definitely 14:09 -!- MizardX [MizardX@c-b21e0313-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #go-nuts 14:09 -!- MizardX [MizardX@c-b21e0313-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Changing host] 14:09 -!- MizardX [MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has joined #go-nuts 14:11 < nsf> and because it's not a preprocessor it will be possible to force pch-like AST cache for each header/flags pair 14:11 < nsf> I think, hm.. 14:22 -!- qjcg [~qjcg@208.88.110.46] has joined #go-nuts 14:25 -!- iant [~iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:26 -!- plainhao [~plainhao@208.75.85.237] has joined #go-nuts 14:31 -!- sauerbraten [~sauerbrat@p508CB43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:31 -!- zimsim [~simon@87.72.77.195] has joined #go-nuts 14:32 -!- tensai_cirno [~cirno@77.232.15.216] has joined #go-nuts 14:33 -!- qjcg [~qjcg@208.88.110.46] has left #go-nuts [] 14:34 -!- rurban [~chatzilla@178-190-150-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #go-nuts 14:40 -!- iant [~iant@67.218.107.6] has joined #go-nuts 14:40 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 14:42 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@c-68-46-33-145.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 14:45 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.149.43] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:45 -!- sauerbraten_ [~sauerbrat@p508CB43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:45 -!- napsy [~luka@193.2.66.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46 -!- sauerbraten [~sauerbrat@p508CB43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48 -!- sauerbraten_ [~sauerbrat@p508CB43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:48 -!- sauerbraten [~sauerbrat@p508CB43A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:48 < ww> what do people typically use for configuration files? 14:49 < aiju> plain text 14:49 < aiju> a la INI 14:49 < nsf> there is no 'typically' for that 14:49 < ww> well, typically for go programs anyways 14:49 < nsf> something text based 14:50 < nsf> there are few libs 14:50 < zimsim> If there was a typically for config files my sysadmin time would be reduced by a factor of 10 14:50 < rm445> json or gob would seem to be other likely choices 14:50 < nsf> yaml 14:50 < nsf> also 14:50 < nsf> or ini-like 14:50 < aiju> if you use ANY markup language for configuration, fuck 14:50 < nsf> but that's for complex cases 14:50 < nsf> which are rare 14:51 < steven> guys 14:51 < nsf> for example httpd config is a complex case usually :) 14:51 < steven> how do you convert a char* to a string? 14:51 < aiju> string(foo)? 14:51 < nsf> C.GoString(cstring) 14:51 < steven> oh thanks. 14:51 < steven> aiju: yeah tried it didnt work :( 14:52 < ww> rm445: json possibly.... want configs to be human editable so gob not so good... 14:52 < nsf> ww: https://github.com/kless/goconfig 14:52 < aiju> why not just FUCKING INI FILES 14:53 < aiju> or ndb, which is ini files on steroid 14:53 < aiju> +s 14:53 < ww> ini files remind of windows? :P 14:53 < nsf> windows doesn't use them anymore 14:53 < nsf> it's not cool anymore 14:53 < aiju> you have to store object oriented XML in a database 14:53 < nsf> in a registry 14:53 < nsf> lol 14:53 * ww shudders 14:54 < exch> ini files are simple and easy. I love em :) 14:54 < aiju> XML configuration files are really fun 14:54 < exch> >< 14:54 < aiju> makes me want to punch the developer in the face 14:54 < rm445> ww: yeah, realised after I wrote that that a binary config file is not a good idea. 14:55 * ww really doesn't need steroids 14:55 -!- tensai_cirno [~cirno@77.232.15.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55 < kimelto> something like Config::Scoped is good imho ;) 14:56 < steven> what happens when you do this? 14:56 < nsf> binary config format isn't a bad idea 14:56 < steven> var v interface{}; *v = "something" 14:56 < nsf> but it's not a good choice 14:57 < nsf> because you still need to have a text format for editing it or a tool 14:57 < nsf> steven: compile error? 14:57 < ww> actually i like the bindesque config style with braces... tbh but can't be bothered making a parser for it 14:57 < steven> oh wait. 14:57 < steven> nevermind. 14:58 < nsf> :) 14:58 < steven> im doing *v inside a type assertion 14:58 < steven> where the type is *string 14:58 < steven> hehehe 14:58 * steven facepalms 14:59 * ww wonders... maybe build a config parser as a subset of go using http://golang.org/pkg/go/parser/ 14:59 < nsf> ww: if there is no reason to have multilevel config format, what's the point 14:59 -!- rurban [~chatzilla@178-190-150-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59 < nsf> ww: Go is a bad choice for a config format 14:59 < nsf> lua works better 14:59 < aiju> config files 14:59 < aiju> in 14:59 < aiju> lua 14:59 < ww> nsf: yeah you're probably right... 15:00 < aiju> i suppose writing them in C++ 15:00 < nsf> aiju: it's nice, almost like ini 15:00 * ww just likes braces more than square brackest 15:00 < nsf> varX = 123 15:00 < nsf> group = { varY = 5, varZ = 6 } 15:00 < nsf> something like that 15:01 < ww> yeah 15:01 < exch> might as well use json then :p 15:01 < aiju> yeah .. but there is ... a programming language in there 15:01 < ww> like nginx or bind... 15:01 < nsf> aiju: in case you need something complex 15:01 < nsf> why not 15:01 < nsf> like glob or something 15:01 < nsf> you can always add a function 15:02 -!- pharris [~Adium@rhgw.opentext.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:02 * ww will probably use goconfig or something and hop over the rabbit hole 15:02 < nsf> also some people use lisp for configs 15:02 < nsf> GIMP for example 15:02 < nsf> :) 15:02 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@201-40-152-213.pltce701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:02 -!- toyoshim [~toyoshim@y241242.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #go-nuts 15:03 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@201-40-152-213.pltce701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #go-nuts 15:03 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 15:03 < nsf> well, by lisp I mean s-exp notation in general 15:04 < nsf> pretty much a valid textual tree/list representation 15:05 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-176-121.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #go-nuts 15:06 -!- tensorpudding [~user@99.56.160.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07 < nsf> anyways, I think we've made a clear point that there is no 'typically' 15:07 < nsf> just use whatever you like :D 15:08 < kimelto> to condlude my answer, there is no answer! 15:10 < ww> :} 15:13 < nsf> http://cloc.sourceforge.net/#Languages 15:14 < nsf> it was a surprise for me that cloc supports Go now 15:14 < aiju> wc -l supported Go from the very beginning 15:15 < nsf> :D 15:15 <+iant> since Go uses the same comment syntax as C++, I expect that cloc also supported Go from the beginning 15:15 < nsf> well, there is one potential issue, but a minor one 15:15 < nsf> raw strings 15:16 <+iant> ah, true 15:16 < nsf> but I guess they are rare enough anyway 15:16 < nsf> won't break statistics 15:19 < wrtp> ww: when i've needed a config file format, i've just gone with JSON because it was almost no effort. not that i'm particularly keen on the syntax. 15:21 < nsf> think about potential users :) 15:21 < exch> I did to at the start. For some projects it makes sense. If some kind of hierarchy is important. 15:21 -!- mertimor [~Adium@p5DC1D9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:21 < exch> For the rest I just use good old fashioned ini files now 15:21 < aiju> the config file hierarchy of überoptions and unteroptions 15:21 < nsf> https://github.com/nsf/bmpanel2/blob/master/themes/alduin-glossy/theme 15:21 < nsf> for one of my projects I used format like that 15:22 < nsf> it was a bad decision 15:22 < nsf> still a lot of problems with tabs vs spaces 15:22 < nsf> although, I thought it's obvious 15:22 < nsf> not for everyone :( 15:22 < rm445> exch: this is a bit of a basic question, but how exactly do you parse the ini files? 15:23 < ww> i guess i'll have some hierarchy but not very complex. quite doable with ini 15:23 < exch> rm445: with this https://github.com/jteeuwen/go-pkg-ini 15:23 < nsf> rm445: or this https://github.com/kless/goconfig 15:23 < nsf> there is a plenty of packages for ini-like configs 15:23 < rm445> thanks guys 15:24 * exch is gradually moving all his code over to a CC0 public domain license 15:24 < ww> yeah, just remindes me of windows 3.1 15:24 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@lawn-gw.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts 15:25 < nsf> hm.. CC0 15:25 < nsf> never heard of it 15:25 < exch> http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ 15:26 < nsf> lol, a copyright license which means no copyright 15:26 < exch> gotta love copyright laws 15:26 < exch> it akso covers those cases where a country does not recognize PD 15:26 < exch> *also 15:27 < nsf> yeah, I guess that's the reason why it exists in the first place 15:27 < aiju> WTFPL is the one true license 15:27 < nsf> I like CC0 15:27 < nsf> I guess I'll move my projects too 15:27 < nsf> most of them are MIT/zlib anyway 15:27 < aiju> creative commons is too hipster ;P 15:28 < nsf> aiju: I like the design on their web page :D 15:28 < nsf> oops 15:28 < nsf> not on the main page though 15:29 < nsf> oh, wait 15:29 -!- mertimor [~Adium@p5DC1D9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:29 < nsf> it's ugly 15:29 < nsf> :)) 15:29 < aiju> i fucking hate this 15:29 < aiju> i write over 100 lines of ASM 15:29 < aiju> and it FUCKING WORKS 15:29 < aiju> there has to be some catch somewhere 15:29 < nsf> I guess I'll stay with MIT/zlib 15:30 < nsf> aiju: asm is simpler than C++ 15:30 -!- mertimor [~Adium@p5DC1D9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30 < nsf> I write 10 lines of C++ and debug it all the night 15:30 < nsf> :) 15:31 < nsf> (joke, I'm not _that_ bad) 15:31 < nsf> ugh.. writing a parser is so boring 15:32 < aiju> yacc! 15:32 < nsf> I'm wondering how people actually write recursive descent parsers by hand 15:32 < nsf> aiju: I'm using parser generator 15:32 < nsf> it's boring anyway.. making all the AST, etc. 15:32 < nsf> well.. I guess copying is boring 15:32 <+iant> I wrote a recursive descent parser for gccgo by hand 15:32 < nsf> and I'm mostly copying the Go grammar 15:33 < nsf> iant: yeah, I've seen your code 15:34 < nsf> iant: and also your code is extensively commented :) 15:34 < aiju> the steady state of comments is wrong 15:35 <+iant> geeze, that parser is 5000 lines 15:35 <+iant> maybe some day I will replace it with a yacc parser 15:35 < nsf> but I think it's very boring to write that kind of code like iant's, I don't know 15:35 < nsf> a lot of one liner functions 15:35 < nsf> _a lot_ 15:36 < nsf> hehe, I don't like yacc 15:36 < nsf> I use lemon parser generator 15:37 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1659922 15:37 < nsf> that's how it looks like 15:38 < skelterjohn> looks like yacc 15:38 < nsf> not really, lemon's grammar is simpler 15:38 < nsf> it doesn't have '|' (OR) notation 15:38 < nsf> I think it's closer to original BNF 15:38 < nsf> and actions are allowed only at the end of a rule statement 15:39 < skelterjohn> no | in bnf? 15:39 < nsf> skelterjohn: I think no 15:39 < nsf> ah, no 15:39 < nsf> it has | 15:39 < kimelto> it sure does. 15:39 < skelterjohn> not having | would be a huge pain 15:39 < nsf> skelterjohn: not really 15:40 < skelterjohn> means 2^X-1 more lines, where X is the number of "|"s you wanted 15:40 < nsf> it's just a copy & paste 15:40 < skelterjohn> (A|B) (C|D) (E|F) 15:40 < nsf> most of the "|" are on a separate line anyway 15:40 < nsf> take a look at Go's yacc 15:40 < skelterjohn> "most" is irrelevant 15:40 < nsf> but I agree that lemon's grammar is kind of bad 15:41 < skelterjohn> who said that? :) 15:41 < aiju> what's wrong with yacc 15:41 < nsf> it's not the best quality of the lemon 15:41 < nsf> lemon has proper destruction model for terminals and non-terminals 15:41 < nsf> it generates defines for terminals automatically 15:41 < aiju> "destruction model"? 15:41 < nsf> it doesn't use global shared state (reentrant) 15:42 < nsf> aiju: yeah 15:42 < aiju> wtfi? 15:42 < nsf> like for example if your token is allocated on the heap 15:42 < nsf> and after popping it from the stack you need to call 'free' 15:42 <+iant> bison supports reentrant parsers these days, for what it's worth 15:42 < nsf> iant: good then :) 15:42 < aiju> bison is a POS 15:43 < nsf> well, anyway, I don't know why I use lemon 15:43 < nsf> also in lemon lexer calls parser :) 15:43 < nsf> I think it's handy 15:43 < aiju> it's both wrong, they should be coroutines ;P 15:44 < skelterjohn> makes sense to me that the parser would make use of a getNextToken() function 15:44 < nsf> named (non)terminals are nice too 15:44 < nsf> instead of $1 $2 $3 15:44 < rm445> skelterjohn: and that function should be called yylex() 15:44 < nsf> :D 15:44 < nsf> skelterjohn: lemon provides "Parse" function 15:44 < nsf> which takes next token :) 15:44 < skelterjohn> rm445: right. i'm responding to nsf's and aiju's assertions 15:45 < nsf> and well, there is one more tool which is very nice 15:45 < nsf> it's called ragel 15:45 < skelterjohn> nsf: well i guess if people usually write their own tokenizers, it makes sense to provide the parser as a library instead of the lexer as a framework 15:46 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1659958 15:46 < nsf> take a look 15:46 < skelterjohn> nsf: i get nothing from reading that 15:46 < nsf> it's basically a stub for a complete Go lexer :) 15:47 < nsf> with interpreted strings, etc. 15:47 < skelterjohn> go with the @ operator :) 15:47 < nsf> yeah, and -> for pointers 15:47 < nsf> '->' { tok_op(TOK_POINTERTO); }; 15:47 < nsf> '@' { tok_op(TOK_AT); }; 15:48 < nsf> ;) 15:48 < wrtp> nsf: goyacc is reentrant and has named nonterminals too 15:48 < nsf> I like how it's easy to make an interpreted of escaped strings right in the lexer 15:48 < skelterjohn> i think ^ should be and, rather than && 15:48 < nsf> skelterjohn: no thanks :) 15:48 < skelterjohn> and v should be or, instead of || 15:48 < skelterjohn> then it would match logic notation 15:49 < aiju> gee 15:49 < nsf> I'm actually in doubt regarding '@' 15:49 < aiju> could you please stop this tinkering with syntax? it irritates me 15:49 < skelterjohn> keep it to yourself. i'm clearly not serious. 15:50 < nsf> it's not like it's bad, at the moment I have no idea 15:50 < nsf> but my brain doesn't get it as easy as '->' 15:50 < nsf> I guess it's because there are very few programming languages where @ is an actual token 15:51 < nsf> or I just don't use them 15:51 < nsf> hm.. 15:51 < steven> what the crap is going on? 15:51 < nsf> steven: don't worry 15:52 < nsf> everything is ok :) 15:52 < nsf> I'm just reinventing C 15:52 < rm445> nsf: are you familiar with SPECS (significantly prettier and easier C++ syntax)? 15:52 < nsf> rm445: nope 15:53 < nsf> func set_new_handler : (^(void->void) -> ^(void->void)); 15:53 < nsf> omg 15:53 < nsf> is it easier? 15:53 < rm445> It's a revised syntax for C++ with comprehensible declarations and a postfix pointer syntax. 15:53 < rm445> I'm not an expert on that type of thing but my understanding is that it is demonstrably better than C++ syntax (but of course will never be adopted by C++ itself( 15:53 < nsf> void->void is crazy 15:54 < rm445> http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/ModestProposal.html 15:54 < nsf> I like Go's syntax, you can read it very easily 15:54 < nsf> rm445: it's a good idea, but that syntax has garbage in it apparently 15:54 < rm445> Go's left-to-right declarations are nice, I often surprise myself by getting things right first time :-) 15:55 < aiju> 16:55 < rm445> It's a revised syntax for C++ with comprehensible declarations and a postfix pointer syntax. 15:55 < nsf> C++: typedef int (*NumSrc)(); 15:55 < nsf> C++New: type NumSrc : ^(void->int); 15:56 < aiju> just don't use C++. period. 15:56 < nsf> Go: type NumSrc func() int; 15:56 < nsf> compare this 15:56 < skelterjohn> go wins 15:56 < nsf> exactly 15:56 < aiju> yuck 15:56 < skelterjohn> what's the ^ in C++New for - function? 15:56 < aiju> fucking inline assembly in that proposol 15:56 < aiju> *a 15:56 < nsf> it's pointer 15:56 < nsf> well in Go function is always a kind of a pointer 15:56 < nsf> but I could add: 15:56 < skelterjohn> the -> makes it a function? 15:56 < nsf> Go: type NumSrc *func() int; 15:57 < nsf> skelterjohn: I have no idea, weird stuff 15:57 < nsf> :D 15:57 < skelterjohn> it would make sense 15:57 < skelterjohn> math notation: A: B x C -> D 15:57 < nsf> ah 15:57 < skelterjohn> A is a function that takes a B and a C and gives you a D 15:57 < aiju> what's the syntax for a protected abstract virtual base pure virtual private destructor? 15:57 -!- iant [~iant@67.218.107.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:57 < aiju> Haskell also has -> 15:57 < rm445> skelterjohn: it's a pointer, I think the key thing is it's a postfix not prefix operator, making dereferencing syntax cleaner. 15:57 < aiju> foo :: Integer -> Integer or something 15:57 < nsf> skelterjohn: well, I know no math 15:57 < nsf> :D 15:58 < nsf> rm445: pointer type is declared using prefix notation anyway 15:59 < nsf> but dereference is postfix, yeah 15:59 < aiju> blah 15:59 < nsf> frankly I don't think it's a good idea 15:59 < nsf> skelterjohn: yay 15:59 < aiju> the whole proposal seems like a proposal to release Mein Kampf with a nicer font 15:59 < nsf> SPECS uses @ for deref too 16:00 < aiju> what's wrong with * 16:00 < nsf> but a postfix one 16:00 < nsf> ref@ 16:00 < nsf> wtf 16:00 < aiju> "uuuuh C has it, C sucks, so it must suck, let's choose something really funny" 16:00 < rm445> no @ is the addressof operator (&) 16:00 < nsf> rm445: ah, yes 16:00 -!- awidegreen [~quassel@c-eacae555.08-2-73746f39.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 16:00 < nsf> my bad, sorry 16:00 < nsf> lol 16:01 < nsf> SPECS proposes '=' for boolean equality and ':=' for assignment 16:01 < nsf> no one will use it 16:01 < nsf> just for the sake of keeping habits 16:01 < nsf> yeah, I guess SPECS has influence from math background 16:02 < mpl> and what would become of the current := ? 16:02 < nsf> which doesn't work for programmers 16:02 < nsf> mpl: in C++ there is no := 16:02 < nsf> SPECS is a new C++ syntax, not Go's 16:02 < skelterjohn> == and = is well known and perfectly readable, no need to change that 16:02 < skelterjohn> they should focus on things that need fixing 16:02 < rm445> true, some of the proposals are a bit out there. Personally if I ever design a language I might well go with := for assignment and == for equality. 16:02 < mpl> nsf: ah, sorry, I just jumped into the discussion and thought you were speaking of go :) 16:02 < nsf> mpl: :D 16:02 < rm445> It's a bit programmer-in-a-straitjacket but it eliminates the = vs := vs == argument entirely. 16:02 < nsf> mpl: we're discussing syntax in general 16:03 -!- zimsim [~simon@87.72.77.195] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:03 < ww> rm445: don't forget =:= 16:03 < nsf> skelterjohn: I think Go has a very nice approach for syntax 16:03 < nsf> devs understand that there are existing programming languages 16:03 < nsf> and making something really different is not a good idea 16:03 < nsf> but few improvements here and there are ok 16:03 < skelterjohn> i just mean as far as "fixing C++ syntax". they should only fix the bits that are broken 16:03 < nsf> exactly 16:03 < skelterjohn> a new language with new operators is fine 16:04 -!- zimsim [~zimsim@87.72.77.195] has joined #go-nuts 16:04 < nsf> well, I'm trying to fix C too, but with entierly different syntax 16:04 < nsf> although it's not that far from C 16:04 < nsf> and even closer to Go 16:04 < nsf> no, it's just a modified Go actually :) 16:05 < nsf> but.. I think it's a reasonable thing to do 16:05 < ww> well go is utf-8 right? so we can use things like pulling from http://bitbucket.org/okfn/openbiblio 16:05 < ww> searching for changes 16:05 < ww> no changes found 16:05 < aiju> 17:05 < rm445> It's a bit programmer-in-a-straitjacket but it eliminates the = vs := vs == argument entirely. 16:05 < ww> oops wrong paste... 16:05 < aiju> do it like B 16:06 < aiju> = vs == based on context 16:06 < aiju> oh wait, i think that was BCPL 16:06 < nsf> aiju: :D 16:06 < ww> meant to paste some clever math operators 16:06 < nsf> ww: yeah, we've seen a lot of unicode symbols 16:06 < aiju> if people start mixing up math and programming, i'll begin mixing up chemistry and programming 16:06 < nsf> the problem is that they are not available on the keyboard :D 16:06 < aiju> i'll add benzene to my data structures 16:06 < aiju> and add operators for nucleophilic subsitution 16:06 < aiju> +t 16:07 < skelterjohn> i don't know why you think math and programming are so different 16:07 < exch> we already mix neuroscience with programming in AI, so why not? :p 16:07 -!- iant [~iant@nat/google/x-mdcaopglrbiqisnz] has joined #go-nuts 16:07 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 16:07 < skelterjohn> exch: neural nets have nothing to do with actual brains 16:07 < aiju> 17:09 < skelterjohn> i don't know why you think math and programming are so different 16:07 < aiju> math doesn't have state 16:08 < nsf> skelterjohn: math is about talking with other math guys, programming is about talking with the computer 16:08 < aiju> math is descriptive 16:08 < aiju> x² = 5 is perfectly fine for describing x in math 16:08 < aiju> and perfectly useless for describing x in programming 16:08 < skelterjohn> math is about expressing abstract ideas 16:08 < skelterjohn> programming is about expressing a kind of abstract idea 16:08 < skelterjohn> chemistry is a physical science 16:09 < nsf> the main problem here is our keyboard anyway 16:09 < ww> moar group theory (cf generics) 16:09 < nsf> you just can't write stuff from math using keyboard 16:09 < skelterjohn> nsf: we could always have our IDEs recognize latex 16:09 < skelterjohn> \alpha \leftarrow \beta + 1 16:09 < aiju> x=x+1 or x:=x+1 doesn't make ANY sense in math 16:09 < nsf> yeah, but you know what Rob Pike and team think about IDE 16:09 < exch> direct brian input would could do wonders, or cause mayhem. random stray thoughts of women in bikini's can make spend the next three days debugging your code 16:09 < nsf> I share their idea 16:09 < skelterjohn> aiju: that's because equality is not assignment 16:10 < skelterjohn> in math, you'd write x <- x + 1 16:10 < aiju> there is no assignment in math 16:10 < skelterjohn> you are flat out wrong 16:10 < aiju> x <- x+1 is just as meaningless 16:10 < skelterjohn> algorithmic theory is definitely a part of math 16:10 < aiju> that's a part of CS :P 16:10 < skelterjohn> now you are drawing an artificial distinction 16:11 < ww> aiju has very definite theories about the boundaries between disciplines 16:11 < skelterjohn> CS is the math that computers are really good at doing. that's all. 16:11 -!- Nitro [~Nitro@unaffiliated/nitro] has joined #go-nuts 16:12 < skelterjohn> when they teach you how to solve systems of linear equations in math class, is that math or computer science? 16:12 < aiju> the mathematical way to look at an algorithm is expressing it as a series 16:12 < skelterjohn> or do they just say if Ax=b, then x = A^-1 B 16:12 < aiju> x_(n+1) = x_n + 1 16:13 < skelterjohn> in CS, when you say x = x+1, you are just saying x, after this instruction executes, is one more than it was before 16:13 < Namegduf> Programming and most math mean different things by = 16:14 < skelterjohn> the distinction between that and what you said is meaningless 16:14 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: vocabulary, not idea 16:14 < Namegduf> Programming languages regularly use = for assignment, much math uses it for definition 16:14 < aiju> equality! 16:14 < Namegduf> That's exactly my point. 16:14 < nsf> oh, btw, I was wrong about my lexer being a stub Go lexer 16:14 < nsf> I don't use utf-8 16:14 < Namegduf> Recursive definitions are not massively helpful, so where = means definition, x = x+1 isn't massively useful. 16:15 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: fixed point problems 16:15 < Namegduf> I wouldn't say that either area exclusively uses it to mean either assignment or definition, though. There's obviously declarative languages out there. 16:15 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:15 < aiju> there is no purely declarative language yet, at least i haven't heard of one 16:16 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has joined #go-nuts 16:16 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@78.112.41.178] has quit [Changing host] 16:16 -!- cenuij [~cenuij@base/student/cenuij] has joined #go-nuts 16:16 < nsf> aiju: and that's a proof why math doesn't work for programming 16:16 < aiju> yup 16:16 < skelterjohn> that is idiotic 16:16 < skelterjohn> i don't mean to offend 16:16 < skelterjohn> but this is silly 16:16 < aiju> mixing up math and programming? yes, yes it is 16:16 < Namegduf> My point is that = is just being used as notation for two different things 16:17 < nsf> I don't mean to offend anyone too, I just hate haskell and functional friends 16:17 < nsf> :) 16:17 < aiju> haha 16:17 < skelterjohn> pretending that there is a distinct line between math and programming 16:17 < Namegduf> You can't use it like you would with one thing with the other. 16:17 < rm445> I agree with skelterjohn. 16:17 < Namegduf> But it doesn't say anything about math vs programming, it's just two different meanings for one symbol. 16:17 < nsf> skelterjohn: I'd say they have different notations 16:17 < nsf> but share ideas and entities 16:17 < aiju> math and programming are entirely different ways of thinking 16:18 < Namegduf> "math" has lots of subareas with different notations 16:18 < skelterjohn> aiju: math has many entirely different ways of thinking 16:18 < Namegduf> It's like one huge horrible programming language in which people invent their own syntax at whim 16:18 < aiju> Namegduf: hahahaha 16:18 < aiju> it's not as bad as physics 16:18 < aiju> where different, conflicting syntaxes can be used in one equation 16:19 < nsf> try parse that, C++ suckers 16:19 < nsf> lol 16:19 < aiju> i have seen equations where e meant *both* the euler number and the elementary charge 16:19 < aiju> yeah, C++ is NOTHING to that 16:21 < nsf> let's talk about meta-programming 16:21 < nsf> :D 16:21 < Namegduf> Let's *not*. 16:21 < nsf> hehehe 16:21 < aiju> awk ' /meta/ { print "BULLSHIT" } ' 16:21 < Namegduf> XD 16:21 < aiju> an awk program for dealing with this things 16:21 < Namegduf> aiju: But what about OO metaclasses? 16:22 < aiju> although actually metaprogramming can be helpful 16:22 < aiju> it just seems like nobody is doing it right 16:22 < aiju> sed/awk is the way to go! 16:22 < Namegduf> Haha. 16:22 < wrtp> when it comes to meta programming, lisp is king 16:23 < aiju> i wouldn't read lisp programs 16:23 < aiju> it's impossible 16:23 < nsf> I think the main problem with templates/operator overloading/preprocessor that it all changes semantics of the underlying language 16:23 < Namegduf> Lisp: The only functional language in which it's even easier to get weird action at a distance than C. 16:23 < aiju> no lexical transparency 16:23 < aiju> and they are PROUD OF IT 16:23 < nsf> it's like adding a slang to a natural language 16:23 < aiju> there are few LISP programs 16:23 < aiju> rather most programs derive their own language from LISP 16:24 < wrtp> lisp's not too bad when you get your head around it. it's just that common lisp is incredibly baroque 16:24 < nsf> some do understand it, but most of the people don't 16:24 < aiju> i can read it 16:24 < Namegduf> I spent three hours debugging a case in which state was accidentally shared between two trees in Lisp 16:24 < aiju> it just takes an eternity to get my head around ten layers of macros 16:24 < Namegduf> And mutating one was mutating the other 16:25 < Namegduf> I think it has passed the point at which I can consider it "not too bad". 16:26 * nsf wants templates in his language 16:27 < nsf> but something very restricted 16:27 -!- wrtp [~rog@92.17.3.222] has quit [Quit: wrtp] 16:27 < mpl> well, there's the template package already ;P 16:27 * mpl hides 16:27 < Namegduf> I honestly think Go would benefit more than suffer from parametric types expanded at compile time if it was horribly unidiomatic to use them where they can be avoided. 16:27 < nsf> no, not like that 16:27 < mpl> nsf: I know. you mean the c++ thing :) 16:27 < nsf> yeah, I like std::vector 16:27 < Namegduf> But I'm not the best person to make that judgement. 16:28 < nsf> I like generic max and min functions 16:28 < nsf> but something more is kind of horrible 16:28 < Namegduf> Yeah. 16:28 < aiju> generic min and max is useless without operator overlaoding 16:28 < aiju> *oad 16:28 < mpl> nsf: you think horribly unidiomatic ever stopped ppl for using anything? :) 16:28 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 16:28 < mpl> Namegduf: ^ 16:28 < nsf> mpl: I've seen C++ template metaprogramming 16:29 < nsf> it's very hard to write that kind of code 16:29 < nsf> and still people do 16:29 < mpl> exactly. 16:29 < mpl> if it's there, ppl will use it. 16:29 < mpl> and will use it badly. 16:29 < nsf> well, but there are other forms of restrictions 16:29 < Namegduf> Yeah, but those people are already trying to write OO code in Go. 16:29 < nsf> for example I can say that templates are always inlined 16:29 < Namegduf> Their code is already useless. 16:30 < aiju> templates lead to crap like STL 16:30 -!- Urmel| [~11087Urme@82-136-196-44.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30 < nsf> or.. I don't know 16:30 < nsf> always-inline kind of rule actually solves another problem 16:30 < nsf> with template instantiation 16:31 < nsf> but I bet it won't stop people from writing crazy stuff 16:31 < nsf> and bloating their code 16:32 < aiju> nothing can stop people from bloating their code 16:32 < aiju> not even thumb screws 16:32 < nsf> aiju: why min and max is useless without operator overloading? 16:32 < nsf> it works for float, int :) 16:32 < aiju> yeah ..... 16:33 < nsf> and that's all I need :) 16:33 < nsf> but there are other cases of that kind of generic code 16:33 < mpl> aiju: you should write a tool integrated with the go compiler than uninstalls the go compiler when it finds some stupid stuff in the programmer's code, with a bye bye message such as "please, go use c++ instead". 16:33 < aiju> mpl: rather wipe the hard disk 16:33 < skelterjohn> aiju: make sure you test it first to make sure it works 16:33 < nsf> also there is a problem with generic functions 16:33 < mpl> lol 16:34 < nsf> that they require name mangling 16:34 < aiju> well, i have enough spare machines 16:34 < nsf> unless they are always being inlined 16:34 < skelterjohn> nsf: not if they use pointers under the hood 16:34 < nsf> and I think inlining here is a good idea, because basically we want to provide a type-safe preprocessor kind of thing 16:34 < nsf> skelterjohn: that will be an unfortunate case 16:35 < skelterjohn> if we're talking about go, don't hold your breath waiting for a preprocessor 16:35 -!- Urmel| [~11087Urme@82-136-196-44.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #go-nuts 16:35 < nsf> I'm talking about abstract generics feature 16:35 < nsf> not a C++ one 16:35 < nsf> oh, I don't need a preprocessor for Go 16:35 < aiju> there is sed 16:35 < nsf> but for C, I don't know 16:35 < Namegduf> sed is the ultimate preprocessor. 16:35 < nsf> I don't like preprocessor based module system :D and I will get rid of that 16:36 < nsf> lol, I have C code where I use m4 16:36 < aiju> i still think that C #include beats most other system 16:36 < Namegduf> Preprocessor based module system? 16:36 < nsf> for generating C code :D 16:36 < aiju> +s 16:36 < nsf> Namegduf: includes hell I mean 16:36 < aiju> #include is simply and predictable 16:36 < aiju> *e 16:36 < Namegduf> Oh, I see. 16:36 < skelterjohn> aiju: except when a #define from one file messes up things that happen in another 16:36 < nsf> yeah, we need separate namespaces for modules 16:37 < aiju> i never had any problem with #include 16:37 < skelterjohn> well, simple and predictable for a computer. less so for humans. 16:37 < aiju> i see the benefit of Go modules 16:37 < aiju> i also like them 16:37 < aiju> takling mainly about non-Go systems ;P 16:37 < nsf> I have an idea of mixing both 16:37 < nsf> and since I want to fix C, I will support C headers directly 16:38 < aiju> most people abuse #include horribly 16:38 < aiju> all that #ifndef crap 16:39 < aiju> basically #include files should not include other include files 16:39 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39 < nsf> aiju: which is unrealistic 16:39 < aiju> but people want lobotomized flatworms to use their #include files 16:39 < aiju> blargh 16:39 < nsf> unless you're using plan9 16:39 < nsf> :D 16:40 -!- JusticeFries [~JusticeFr@173-8-247-218-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:40 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has joined #go-nuts 16:42 -!- MizardX [MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:42 -!- MizardX [MizardX@c-b21e0313-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #go-nuts 16:42 -!- MizardX [MizardX@c-b21e0313-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Changing host] 16:42 -!- MizardX [MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has joined #go-nuts 16:47 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47 -!- jumzi [~none@c-89-233-234-125.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:49 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:52 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has joined #go-nuts 16:53 -!- l00t [~i-i3id3r_@189.105.53.156] has joined #go-nuts 16:57 -!- Urmel| [~11087Urme@82-136-196-44.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [] 17:09 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16 -!- dario [~dario@domina.zerties.org] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:19 -!- nsf [~nsf@jiss.convex.ru] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:22 -!- zimsim [~zimsim@87.72.77.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23 -!- Urmel| [~11087Urme@82-136-196-44.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #go-nuts 17:24 -!- napsy [~luka@88.200.96.18] has joined #go-nuts 17:25 -!- zimsim [~simon@87.72.77.195] has joined #go-nuts 17:29 -!- Nitro [~Nitro@unaffiliated/nitro] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:29 -!- Venom_X [~pjacobs@66.54.185.133] has joined #go-nuts 17:40 -!- zimsim [~simon@87.72.77.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:41 -!- sjd [~sjd@4.78.243.126] has joined #go-nuts 17:41 -!- tobier [~tobier@c-1e9de055.712-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43 -!- tobier [~tobier@c-1e9de055.712-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 17:45 -!- zimsim [~simon@87.72.77.195] has joined #go-nuts 17:53 -!- tobier [~tobier@c-1e9de055.712-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:54 -!- tobier [~tobier@c-1e9de055.712-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #go-nuts 18:12 -!- piranha [~piranha@e180079192.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 18:13 -!- Nitro [~Nitro@unaffiliated/nitro] has joined #go-nuts 18:13 -!- Nitro [~Nitro@unaffiliated/nitro] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16 -!- sjd_ [~sjd@4.78.243.126] has joined #go-nuts 18:19 -!- sjd [~sjd@4.78.243.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19 -!- MizardX [MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx] has quit [Quit: f00d!] 18:20 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-ayuxteyrobpuxnqg] has joined #go-nuts 18:27 -!- petrux [~petrux@host16-224-static.53-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:31 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 18:35 -!- venk [~user@CPE-124-189-81-145.azsz1.cht.bigpond.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- sjd_ [~sjd@4.78.243.126] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- sjd [~sjd@4.78.243.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:37 < ptrb> if I've got "list []string", what's the best-practice equivalent to "-".join(list) in python? 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21:01 -!- femtooo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:01 -!- sjd [~sjd@4.78.243.126] has quit [Quit: sjd] 21:02 -!- boscop [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03 <+iant> consumer: they are written in straight HTML, so, no, not really 21:03 -!- boscop [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:03 <+iant> I mean, you could turn the HTML into PDF easily enough 21:04 < aiju> last time i checked browsers had print buttons 21:04 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-198-8-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:04 < consumer> last time I used browsers print buttons, they cut off the text and did some nasty stuff to the formatting 21:06 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:06 -!- boscop [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:09 < skelterjohn> consumer: print to PDF, if you're on a mac 21:10 < skelterjohn> it will look just like it did in the browser, and you can be sure of how it will turn out in the printer 21:10 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:11 < skelterjohn> macs use pdf as an underlying display layer 21:12 -!- rm445 [rm445@pip.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:14 -!- boscop__ [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:15 -!- PortatoreSanoDiI [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-167-244.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #go-nuts 21:16 -!- boscop [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:16 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g225221061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17 < steven> consumer: yeah just get a mac 21:17 < steven> saves you a lot of headache. 21:17 < skelterjohn> it's possible he already had one :) 21:18 < steven> thats why everyone uses macs always 21:18 < steven> no its not. 21:18 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-176-121.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:18 < steven> otherwise he would be like "whoa everythings awesome i win life" and would quit irc 21:18 < skelterjohn> steven: did you see my note about how to link other local pkgs? 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