--- Log opened Fri Mar 25 00:00:09 2011
--- Day changed Fri Mar 25 2011
00:00 < ww> but, what if i parse it right to left?  is that allowed?  then i
would get 1 instead of 2
00:00 < kamaji> waqas: internal representation
00:00 < kamaji> waqas: oh wait, is ({"a":1,"a":2}).a == 2 part of the spec?
00:00 < waqas> ww: u == decode(encode(u)) fails in various ways by the way,
e.g., case sensitivity
00:01 < waqas> kamaji: Yes, it's part of ecmascript, not JSON.
00:01 < ww> in rdf, uris are case sensitive
00:01 < ww> (that is controversial but is nonetheless defined to be so)
00:01 < waqas> ww: Ah, of course
00:01 < kamaji> Right, so I guess it's all about the hashmaps :)
00:01 < kamaji> They've basically done everything but say "Use a hashmap"
00:01 < waqas> ww: It makes sense.  That's how XML treats them in general
namespacing.
00:03 < ww> right.  early on there was a large xml influence.  but at least
for http uri the host part should really be case insensitive
00:03 < ww> and for mailto probably entirely insensitive
00:03 < ww> but it is not so
00:04 < waqas> Helps make implementation easier
00:04 < ww> (and that's out of scope for the current wg to change)
00:04 < waqas> I mean with non-ASCII characters, you get into an unholy
mess, what with combining characters, and so on.
00:04 < ww> what is in scope is how to make rdf more useable from json-land
00:05 < ww> waqas: right
00:07 < steven> <3
00:07 < steven> god bless you all
00:08 < kamaji> hahah
00:11 < kamaji> hmmmmm
00:11 < kamaji> how can I compare two types?
00:12 < kamaji> because I can't use .(type) outside a switch statement
00:12 < kamaji> I just need to test equality basically
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00:16 < kamaji> Is it even possible without reflect?
00:19 <+iant> not in the general case, but reflect does provide
reflect.DeepEqual
00:20 < kamaji> The general case?
00:20 <+iant> I mean, if you want to compare two arbitrary interface values
for equality, you need to use DeepEqual
00:20 <+iant> well, actually, you can compare interface values with ==
00:21 <+iant> that may do what you need
00:21 <+iant> don't mind me, I don't really know what you are trying to do
00:21 < waqas> I think he wants to know if types are equal, not values.
00:22 < kamaji> well I have a few types which implement an interface, and I
want to compare the types
00:22 < kamaji> I'll just paste code, that will be easier :p
00:22 <+iant> you want to see if two different interface values have the
same dynamic type?
00:23 < kamaji> http://pastebin.com/HVfmphtc
00:23 < kamaji> iant: yes that
00:23 < kamaji> I think...
00:24 < kamaji> oops, "Feature" should say "MyInterface"
00:24 < kamaji> but obviously that doesn't work
00:25 <+iant> yeah, I think you have to say something like if
reflect.Typeof(x) == reflect.Typeof(y)
00:25 < kamaji> aw, poop
00:25 < kamaji> Is there some way I can fudge it with assignments?  :D
00:26 <+iant> if you know all the possible types, sure, you can use a set of
"_, ok := x.(Type1)" assertions
00:27 < waqas> kamaji: Do you have something against the reflect package?
:)
00:27 < kamaji> someone said it was slow :p
00:28 < kamaji> Nah i'll use reflect
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00:28 < kamaji> if that ends up being a problem I can always change it, but
I doubt it will
00:28 < kamaji> cheers
00:28 < kamaji> oh wait, one more thing
00:28 < kamaji> if I have two types, T1 and T2 which are both string
00:29 < kamaji> will they be "equal" or not?
00:29 < waqas> I don't think they'll be equal, but test it.
00:30 <+iant> reflect.Typeof is not slow
00:30 < kamaji> iant: now I feel like a jerk :(
00:30 <+iant> no need, just saying
00:30 < kamaji> heheh
00:30 < kamaji> ok testing
00:34 < kamaji> ok it works
00:34 < kamaji> thanks guys
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00:44 < str1ngs> kamaji: jerk :P
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01:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/Onzv7Q by [tav] in go/ -- Added a .gitignore
file.  -- [1 added] -- .gitignore (A)
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01:09 < bugQ> kamaji: they will not be equal
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01:12 < bugQ> it's like C's typedef, they are compatible but not identical
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01:22 < steven> so when is someone gonna write a git implementation in Go?
01:22 < steven> :)
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01:24 < jesusaurus> steven: thanks for volunteering ;)
01:24 < steven> hehe
01:24 < steven> i wish i knew how to implement git
01:25 < steven> but those CS concepts like "git trees" and such confuse me
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01:30 < str1ngs> steven: I have some go bindings to libgit2 in the works
01:30 < str1ngs> right now it does limited things like repo init some ref
lookups
01:31 < steven> git would be an excellent language to rewrite git in though
01:32 < steven> with all its built-in libraries for the exact things that
git does
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01:32 < str1ngs> git or go you mean?
01:33 < str1ngs> anyways ya native go git would be ideal . however quite the
task libgit2 is well maintained and documented
01:33 < str1ngs> so its a stop cab for now
01:33 < str1ngs> gap*
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02:21 < str1ngs> echo * poor mans ls
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02:41 < steven> str1ngs: from what i remember hearing about git, its
actually really simple.
02:41 < steven> the implementation is only complex because its C ;)
02:41 < str1ngs> steven: it is yes
02:41 < steven> which part?
02:41 < steven> gits simple or libgit is comlpex?
02:42 < str1ngs> libgit2 is simple
02:42 < steven> ah
02:42 < str1ngs> git its self is not that complex
02:42 < steven> im kind of interested in learning how git works
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02:42 < str1ngs> but..  there is alot more ie http ssh transport
02:42 < steven> i know branches confuse the heck out of me, especially how
merges are done.
02:42 < str1ngs> fsck type stuff
02:42 < steven> fsck you!
02:42 < steven> ;)
02:42 < str1ngs> branches are quite simple
02:43 < steven> or rather not branches
02:43 < steven> i mean trees
02:43 < steven> git trees
02:45 < str1ngs> are the not btress?
02:45 < str1ngs> btree's
02:45 < steven> i dont know?
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02:45 < str1ngs> I know there is alot of how to's about git float around
02:46 < str1ngs> but this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dhZ9BXQgc4
probably the best explination on what a git branch is
02:46 < steven> cool thanks
02:46 < str1ngs> also explains why they are so cheap
02:46 < steven> likewise, this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgGUKWiw7Wk is probably the best explanation of
what love really means
02:46 < steven> just fyi
02:48 < str1ngs> on principle I refuse to click that
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02:48 < kamaji> This video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0 is
probably the best explanation of what Friday really means
02:50 < steven> str1ngs: oh well.  your loss.
02:50 < str1ngs> steven: anyways, right now I'm using libgit2 and I figured
I make proper bindings.  but if you are instrested look at libgit2
02:50 < steven> cool thanks <3
02:51 < str1ngs> the bindings I'm working on are not complete will be awhile
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02:52 < kamaji> noooooooo
02:52 < kamaji> netsplit!
02:52 < kamaji> WE'RE DOOMED
02:52 < kamaji> 2012
02:52 < kamaji> &c.
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03:09 < steven> did i win?
03:12 < kamaji> Yes.
03:13 < steven> woot.
03:14 < kamaji> congratulations!
03:14 < steven> thx :)
03:15 < steven> btw if any of you have an idea how to solve this problem
(the very last post in this thread) im all ears:
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/6a29692249f75eb7
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03:52 < Namegduf> for blah := <-foo.registerForEvent() { ...  } is a very
pretty idiom.
03:57 < steven> Namegduf: is it new?
03:57 < steven> did i invent it by accident?
03:58 < Namegduf> I don't know, I've not seen it before.
03:58 < sjd> I thought you had to put the range keyword in front of the
channel
03:58 < steven> btw the syntax confused me at first and i tried something
like that earlier..  but it didnt work so i thought "crap this cant be done"..
then i realized, it can!  for blan := range foo.registerForEvent() { ...  }
03:58 < steven> yeah sjd exactly
03:58 < steven> and no <- operator
03:59 < Namegduf> Yeah, misremembered.
03:59 < steven> but the idea is really helpful
03:59 < steven> only problem left is the fact that it returns one type only
03:59 < sjd> what you have there is aesthetically pleasing though
04:00 < steven> so either i need a bunch of functions to return different
types via channels, or i can use a single chan []args, and unpack the event
manually via arg[0], arg[1], etc.
04:00 < steven> (which is, of course, much less safe and much less pretty)
04:01 < sjd> just use interface{} and a type switch (dont know if that
applies - only saw a small part of the conversation)
04:01 < steven> so basically, it means that for every event-type i end up
creating, ill need a new function with almost-identical functionality in it to all
the other event functions
04:01 < steven> yeah i can do that sjd..  but im really trying to avoid
interface{} and type switching
04:01 < Namegduf> Near identical trivial functionality.  :P
04:02 < steven> it pushes what can easily be compile-time errors into
runtime panics
04:02 < sjd> for fun?
04:02 < Namegduf> I'm not sure the separate types are avoidable
04:02 < steven> https://gist.github.com/886345
04:03 < Namegduf> There's one alternative I can think of.
04:03 < steven> thats near-trivial, but bad enough to make me want to avoid
copying/pasting it 20 times.
04:03 < Namegduf> bot.registerEvent("join")
04:03 < sjd> perhaps an event interface may work here
04:03 < steven> i thought of that too,
04:03 < Namegduf> Have a chan []string
04:03 < Namegduf> It's "safe" and obvious to unpack because you only get one
event per event channel.
04:03 < steven> but again, i have to manually unpack the arguments
04:03 < sjd> or, better yet, have explicit channels and use select to handle
the events
04:04 < Namegduf> Yeah, you can't unpack them by name (args.channel or
whatever) instead of number.
04:05 < sjd> that will give you your type safety and be pretty clean
04:05 < steven> Namegduf: which makes it less safe (index-bounds errors)
04:05 < Namegduf> That's true.
04:05 < Namegduf> sjd: It's already using channels explicitly and can be
used with select
04:06 < steven> sjd: that doesnt solve this problem since it already uses
different channels
04:06 < steven> https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/blob/master/bot.go
04:06 < steven>
https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/blob/master/main.go#L14-20
04:07 < exch> main() will exit immediately
04:07 < steven> yeah its not functional yet
04:07 < steven> im just making sure it builds for the time being
04:07 < sjd> steven: thx for the context
04:07 < steven> until i figuer out a way to do good event handling
04:07 < Namegduf> steven: In that case, the only way is to use a type per
event
04:07 < steven> so far channels are the best option, but im hoping i can
find a better way than this
04:08 < steven> i wonder
04:08 < Namegduf> And the only way to avoid interface{} and type switching
is to have a per-event register function
04:08 < Namegduf> You could use anonymous structs
04:08 < Namegduf> Which makes it have less declared and exported.
04:08 < steven> if maybe theres some way of packing channel data so that the
same type is passed to all event channels, but each event channel can extract its
own relevant data from the event structure
04:08 < Namegduf> But in general...
04:09 < Namegduf> There is, it's interface{} and a type switch.
04:09 < steven> i know theres no concept of unions, right?
04:09 < Namegduf> You're just reinventing the type switch in a different
way.  :P
04:09 < steven> i suppose thats true, theres no benefit to that over type
switches
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04:09 < steven> both of them avoid compile-time checks
04:09 < Namegduf> interface{} meets this functionality of unions, which is
one reason they're not massively useful.
04:10 < steven> god bless you guys real good right in the face
04:10 < steven> <3
04:10 < sjd> type switches are you're huckleberry here
04:10 < steven> yeah i dont think i can avoid it.  well, i mean i can, but
then i have other (probably worse) problems
04:11 < Namegduf> I'd do it the way you have done it now.
04:11 < steven> such as duplicated code and tons of boilerplate
04:11 < steven> Namegduf: with the duplicated code and tons of boilerplate?
04:11 < Namegduf> Pretty much.
04:11 < Namegduf> It isn't ideal.
04:11 < steven> this almost-trivial code has to be repeated for 40+something
events https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/blob/master/bot.go#L42-46
04:11 < Namegduf> I'd use anonymous structs, and I don't much mind lots of
three line functions
04:12 < Namegduf> It's annoying but if there's real functionality it
*should* overwhelm it.
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04:12 < sjd> I guess I don't see the problem with a lack of compile time
checking: as long as you define an event interface, you effectively get that
04:12 < steven> anonymous-structs alleviates the issue of creating new types
for each event, but it doesnt work with type-switching, because then what do you
type-switch it to?
04:12 < Namegduf> You don't need to type switch.
04:12 < Namegduf> I was saying as one way to make the separate functions
less annoying.
04:12 < steven> oh right.
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04:13 < Namegduf> sjd: You still don't have compile-time information about
which event you got, and as your behaviour is based on knowing that, you will need
to test that at runtime
04:13 < steven> <3
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04:14 < Namegduf> I agree, it's an annoying problem.
04:14 < Namegduf> It's a thing with event-based stuff in general.
04:15 < Namegduf> You need to define an API for each event, or have a
not-defined-obviously one looked at at runtime.
04:16 < Namegduf> Where you've lots of events, it gets annoying.  And it
isn't easy to circumvent.
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#go-nuts
04:20 < steven> i dont mind definint a lot of events, thats expected.
04:20 < steven> the problem is, i dont want to have to define all that
boilerplate code for each event in order to register a new channel per event
04:20 < Namegduf> It's about three lines.
04:21 < steven> if i omitted the concept of "multiple handlers" altogether
and just allowed a single event-handler, this isnt an issue
04:21 < Namegduf> An append plus whatever you do to stop concurrent
registrations from stepping all over each other.
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04:21 < steven> because then theres only one channel per event, and my
handler can just grab it.
04:21 < Namegduf> Unfortunately not.
04:21 < steven> nuh uh, called it, no callbacks
04:21 < Namegduf> Your bot code would need to be told to send to it.
04:22 < Namegduf> If you send to a channel no one is reading from you will
block when the buffer runs out.
04:22 < steven> perhaps.
04:22 < steven> i think theres ways around that though
04:22 < steven> at least, much more elegant than the workarounds for this
04:23 < steven> can a type be used as a value?  i dont think so, right?
04:23 < steven> hmm
04:23 < Namegduf> There isn't.
04:23 < steven> oh wait, oops
04:23 < Namegduf> And no, it can't.
04:24 < steven> hi
04:24 < steven> <3
04:24 < edsrzf> ...Except when using the reflect package
04:25 < steven> right on
04:25 < steven> edsrzf++
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04:31 < steven> ok so
04:31 < steven> ive tried 4 different versions.
04:31 < steven> i like this one the best so far
04:33 < steven> an "inheritance"-based approach with inherited no-op
methods:
https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/commit/fc287ab1578269f8bfc5be5e8934f2972ce84ea8
04:34 < steven> a struct-of-specific-event-handlers each conforming to an
interface:
https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/commit/e7be7866bc048e5239a6c578ca86999a90251453
04:35 < steven> a single-function callback approach which had a generic
signature and required manually unpacking arguments:
https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/commit/326b234051d0365bb81919a5b2256b044c88fddd
04:36 < steven> the first channel approach of taking registering each
specific-event-handler in its own goroutine, which ended up in un-refactorable
boilerplate on the event-generator's side:
https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/commit/f5c71d292afcd323105c02a1385818da3c82deb0
04:37 < steven> and finally, a channel-based interface{}-(ab)using goroutine
which handles every event with type switching:
https://github.com/sdegutis/go-ircbot/commit/91a77fe4d3912138976c5cbe5bbe91985fa5a0e7
04:37 < steven> apparently i cant count.  thats 5 versions, not 4.
04:38 < Namegduf> Type assertions are the cleanest way to test if something
is a given type at runtime, over manual unpacking/testing of generic structures.
04:39 < steven> i think, weighing the pros and cons of each, #5 is the best
in terms of (1) minimal code required, (2) cleanest code, (3) most compile-time
checking, and (4) least defering of compile-time errors into runtime panics
04:39 < steven> which do you pefer?  #4 right?
04:40 < Namegduf> Yeah.
04:40 < steven> ok
04:41 < Namegduf> It's all a matter of opinion, though.
04:41 < steven> not a fan of DRY, eh?
04:41 < steven> i dont think its just opinion in this case..
04:41 < Namegduf> DRY is misapplied if applied here.
04:41 < steven> when you have code that should be refactored but cant, and
ends up being copied/pasted out of necessity, with minor changes each time, thats
a recipe for disater
04:41 < Namegduf> The reason you can't refactor it out is that the code is
doing different actual things to different actual types.
04:41 < steven> also disaster
04:42 < steven> the only difference between each function would be the type.
04:42 < steven> and since types themselves arent values, i cant refactor
that out.
04:43 < Namegduf> They're trivial, tiny functions.
04:43 < steven> that doesnt negate my point.
04:43 < Namegduf> Yes, it does.
04:43 < Namegduf> It isn't a violation of DRY because they do not embody a
significant amount of information being repeated.
04:43 < Namegduf> There is no algorithm being repeated.
04:43 < steven> by allowing that to happen you're giving bad practices a
foothold.
04:44 < Namegduf> Slippery slope is a fallacy.
04:44 < steven> there is chance for error though.
04:44 < Namegduf> There is always chance for error.
04:44 < steven> ok.  lets agree to disagree.
04:44 < steven> you're entitled to your opinion even if its wrong :)
04:44 < steven> ;)
04:44 < steven> nil is a type?
04:44 < steven> cool
04:44 < Namegduf> I don't think so
04:44 < Namegduf> It's untyped
04:45 < steven> it can be used in type switches
04:45 < steven> as a case
04:45 < Namegduf> Ah.
04:45 < steven> like int or float64
04:45 < steven> im sure its a special type though
04:45 < steven> ie, i cant do var a nil
04:45 < steven> :D
04:46 < steven> exch: also notice that loop.Run is a no-op currently ;)
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04:47 < Namegduf> At an abstract level, you're either declaring the types
you support or you're not (and they're undocumented or documented elsewhere)
04:48 < Namegduf> A bunch of tiny functions to do that and provide an API
for those event types is about as low cost as you can get a large API
04:48 < Namegduf> You will still need to export a bunch of similiar types
and have a lot of boilerplate generation code internally for them, even if you
send them down one channel.
04:49 < Namegduf> The scenario fundamentally involves a large number of
event types and you can't get rid of that because it's part of the scenario
04:49 < steven> another benefit of this technique btw is that i can simply
close(eventChan) on the othe end, and the handler's loop will just exit and thus
the goroutine will die gracefully <3
04:49 < Namegduf> Yep.
04:49 < steven> esp with for ..  range ch
04:50 < Namegduf> Yeah, it's very pretty.
04:50 < steven> i almost wish i could combine the chan for-range and
type-switch, but then i realize im just spoiled because what i have is already
very clean and good
04:51 < Namegduf> Probably non-ideal; type switches are the best way of
doing what they do, but they probably want to be fairly obvious.
04:52 < Namegduf> Although you can type-assert the output of almost any
expression, so...
04:52 < Namegduf> Really, what you're annoyed by is a lack of generics.
04:52 < steven> nah
04:52 < steven> i just see those two lines and how they make my code
indented an extra level
04:52 < steven> and if they were combined it would be slightl less noisy in
my goroutine
04:52 < Namegduf> I meant with #4
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04:52 < steven> oh.
04:52 < Namegduf> Generics == having a single defined register function for
all types
04:52 < steven> well, i think it migh be solved with generics, sure
04:53 < steven> but in Ruby, i would solve it by literally passing the type
as an argument
04:53 < steven> ie, bot.RegisterForEvent(SomeEventType)
04:53 < steven> but until we can do bot.RegisterForEvent(int) in Go legally,
this isnt an option to consider
04:53 < Namegduf> That's equivalent to bot.RegisterForEvent("join") and a
type assert in Go
04:54 < steven> not entirely.  this way is safer.
04:54 < Namegduf> In Ruby you're just implicitly using them everywhere.  :P
04:54 < steven> that way relies on a clean mapping between an identifier and
an event struct type
04:54 < steven> this way would actually combine them into one value.
04:54 < steven> ie, your identifier *is* your event type struct, there can
never be a mismatch
04:55 < Namegduf> What you fundamentally need to make it better than a type
assert is a way to define at compile-time that RegisterForEvent(SomeEventType)
returns SomeEventType
04:55 < steven> which is what i was talkiong about.
04:55 < steven> just now.
04:55 < Namegduf> That requires generics.
04:55 < steven> yeah.
04:55 < steven> probably.
04:56 < steven> like i said, it probably does.
04:56 < Namegduf> It doesn't bug me because repetition for different types
due to lack of generics causes way more repetition of actual functions
04:56 < Namegduf> Like data structures and such
04:57 < Namegduf> And the repetition there is basically trivial.
04:57 < Namegduf> But I'd say it's part of the same problem.
04:57 < Namegduf> Ruby avoids the issue by not having compile time checks at
all, which you can do easily enough.
04:57 < Namegduf> It's just not much better.
04:58 < steven> scala would be able to do it, with compile-time checks afaik
04:58 < Namegduf> Scala has generics.
04:58 < steven> yay!
04:58 < Namegduf> In the form of parameterized types.
05:00 < steven> man, i keep doing this stupid mistake
05:00 < steven> for v := range slice { ...  }
05:00 < steven> instead of: for _, v := range slice { ...  }
05:01 < Namegduf> I do that, too.
05:01 < steven> they really should be reversed.
05:01 < Namegduf> I lov ranging over a slice, though
05:01 < Namegduf> You can range over nil slices safely.
05:01 < steven> although for maps, it makes sense for key to come first
05:01 < steven> yep :)
05:01 < Namegduf> And zero length ones.
05:01 < steven> reminds me of good old ObjC
05:01 < Namegduf> There's pretty much no way the operation can have invalid
input.
05:01 < steven> but better
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05:08 < str1ngs> I like if err := doStuff(); err != nil
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05:10 < steven> yeah thats pretty nice
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05:58 < str1ngs> I need replicate a stream reader ie sed.  read file into a
buffer run my regex then save again?
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06:00 < Namegduf> Read input into buffer, run regex, write to output
06:01 < str1ngs> ya what I was thinking
06:01 < str1ngs> the files are not large doesnt have to be that smart
06:02 < Namegduf> Well, if you're a *stream* reader you should presumably be
able to operate on arbitrary and potentially infinite streams fed to stdin
06:03 < str1ngs> I'm not dealing with stdin
06:04 < str1ngs> but if there is a way to connect pipes and edit might be
easier
06:05 < str1ngs> naw to complex make it simple
06:11 < str1ngs> so open file read it all into buffer line.ReadLine() run
regex on the line the write to file one line at atime
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09:38 < Namegduf> Where's that comparison of keywords count?
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09:52 < nsf> Namegduf: afair in one of the presentations
09:52 < nsf> Rob Pike's most likely
09:56 < nsf> although
09:56 < nsf> can't find it
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09:57 < nsf> here it is
09:57 < nsf> $GOROOT/doc/ExpressivenessOfGo.pdf
09:57 < nsf> page 13
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10:00 < nsf> but comparison isn't quite fair
10:00 < nsf> Go count includes keywords, but not predeclared identifiers
10:01 < nsf> true, false, nil, (u)int[8,16,32,64], uint, int, float32,
float64, byte, complex, etc.
10:01 < nsf> and they are kind of related to an approximate complexity
10:02 < xyproto> It's here: http://golang.org/doc/ExpressivenessOfGo.pdf
10:02 < Namegduf> Thanks.
10:03 < xyproto> nsf: I agree, but so is the complexity of the most used
apis, so it's a slippery slope
10:03 < nsf> yeah
10:03 < xyproto> nsf: and brainfuck is not the least complex language ;)
10:03 < Namegduf> I don't know
10:04 < nsf> semantic entities are important too and their interrelations
10:04 < Namegduf> They're kind of related but I don't think (unsigned)
long/short/int is simpler than (u)int[8,16,32,64]
10:04 < Namegduf> It has fewer but they're far more easier to screw up with.
10:04 < nsf> I'm just saying that these are in C's count
10:04 < nsf> but not in Go's
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10:05 < nsf> Go actually has a bit more "keywords" than C
10:05 < nsf> (if we pretend that predeclared identifier is a keyword)
10:06 < nsf> but yet, Go is simpler than C
10:06 < nsf> :)
10:12 < wrtp> there's a big difference between predeclared identifiers and
keywords
10:12 < nsf> no
10:13 < wrtp> in C, much of libc counts as "predeclared identifiers" - ANSI
doesn't allow you to redefine printf, for example
10:13 < nsf> but we're not talking about Go lib
10:14 < wrtp> the difference between a predeclared identifier and a keyword
is that you don't need to know about predeclared identifiers
10:14 < nsf> and even C's preprocessor
10:14 < wrtp> b
10:14 < wrtp> ut
10:14 < wrtp> 
10:14 < nsf> just languages
10:14 < wrtp> 
10:14 < wrtp> b
10:14 < wrtp> ut y
10:14 < wrtp> ou
10:14 < wrtp> but you do need to know about keywords
10:14 < wrtp> [grr]
10:14 < nsf> you can't use go without knowing its predeclared identifiers :)
10:14 < wrtp> you can
10:15 < wrtp> of course, you need to know a few
10:15 < nsf> all types in Go are predeclared identifiers
10:15 < edsrzf> The parser doesn't need to know about predeclared
identifiers.  Is that what you mean?
10:15 < wrtp> but not all of them
10:15 < wrtp> edsrzf: i mean that if i want to declare a variable called
"complex128" there's no problem with that
10:15 < edsrzf> Yep, that's true too.
10:15 < wrtp> or a method called "make" or "new"
10:15 < nsf> but whatever, I'm not in a mood of arguing for the sake of
arguing
10:16 < edsrzf> Awww, but I love a good argument for the sake of arguing.
;)
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10:18 < wrtp> the predeclared identifiers are really like Go's standard
library.
10:22 < ww> no arguing!
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12:38 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1713179
12:38 < nsf> hehe
12:38 < nsf> how brutal is that?  :)
12:39 < nsf> hopefully it works :)
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12:40 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1713117
12:40 < nsf> that's the other piece
12:42 < fzzbt> nsf: is gocode broken for newest go?
12:42 < nsf> fzzbt: I don't know
12:42 < fzzbt> it's not compiling
12:42 < fzzbt> uh, i meant newest release version
12:42 < nsf> what's your version of Go?
12:42 < fzzbt> newest release
12:42 < fzzbt> branch
12:43 < nsf> I've updated gocode by accident for the latest weekly
12:43 < nsf> which is 2011-03-15
12:43 < nsf> next time it will be updated for the release again
12:43 < nsf> as README says
12:43 < fzzbt> oki
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12:55 < wrtp> nsf: looks pretty complex to me, and you're not even taking
constants into account AFAICS
12:56 < wrtp> the go equivalent is half the number of lines of code and does
more: http://golang.org/src/cmd/gc/typecheck.c#342
12:56 < nsf> they are taken
12:56 < nsf> see second lin
12:56 < nsf> link*
12:57 < wrtp> nsf: but is_int doesn't return true if t is a constant int
12:57 < nsf> it's not documented, but it is
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12:57 < nsf> :)
12:57 < nsf> I have two built-in types: BUILTIN_INT and BUILTIN_CONST_INT
12:57 < wrtp> builtin_stypes[BUILTIN_CONST_INT] == stype_t::INT ??
12:57 < nsf> both are of class INT
12:58 < nsf> no
12:58 < nsf> builtin_stypes is an array of stype_t*
12:58 < nsf> but
12:58 < nsf> builtin_stypes[BUILTIN_CONST_INT]->type == stype_t::INT
12:58 < nsf> yes
12:58 < wrtp> so what's the difference between is_int and is_const_int ?
12:59 < nsf> is_const_int says it's const int and only const int
12:59 < nsf> is_int includes both const int and int
12:59 < wrtp> i thought you said stype_t::INT is the same as
builtin_stypes[BUILTIN_CONST_INT]
12:59 < nsf> no
12:59 < wrtp> or are you abusing operator overloading
12:59 < wrtp> ?
13:00 < nsf> stype_t::type_t is a classification of types
13:00 < nsf> for example each of builtin ints has this class
13:00 < nsf> e.g.  BUILTIN_INT8
13:00 < nsf> BUILTIN_INT16
13:00 < nsf> etc.
13:00 < wrtp> is == overloaded?
13:00 < wrtp> it looks like a simple pointer comparison
13:01 < nsf> no
13:01 < nsf> and yes
13:01 < nsf> it is
13:02 < nsf> wrtp: anyways, you can't see the whole hierarchy, so I will
explain the whole picture later if you want
13:02 < nsf> when the commit is ready
13:02 < nsf> and it works
13:02 < nsf> at least partially :)
13:02 < wrtp> so is_int(x) is exactly equivalent to is_const_int(x) because
x == stype_t::INT and x == builtin_stypes[BUILTIN_CONST_INT] and style_t::INT ==
builtin_stypes[BUILTIN_CONST_INT]
13:02 < nsf> :(
13:02 < nsf> x is stype_t*
13:02 < nsf> stype_t struct has a field 'type'
13:03 < nsf> x->type == stype_t::INT for is_int
13:03 < nsf> and for is_const_int
13:03 < nsf> x == builtin_stypes[BUILTIN_CONST_INT]
13:03 < wrtp> ah, i hadn't noticed to "->type" in is_int
13:03 < wrtp> s/to/the
13:03 < nsf> yeah
13:04 < nsf> and well, my type system is a bit more complex than Go's
13:04 < nsf> because it includes pointer arithmetic
13:06 < nsf> wrtp: and gc compiler is too brutal to me :)
13:06 < nsf> it uses goto a lot
13:06 < wrtp> looks simpler to me.  you don't seem to have interfaces,
slices, maps etc
13:06 < nsf> ah, that..  yes
13:07 < nsf> but they are not the part of binary expressions anyway
13:07 < nsf> I meant the binop case
13:07 < wrtp> sure they are
13:07 < nsf> uhm, no
13:07 < wrtp> interface{}(2) == "hello"
13:07 < nsf> hm, ok
13:07 < nsf> I was wrong :)
13:08 < wrtp> that one thing is as complex as your pointer arithmetic, i
think
13:09 < nsf> maybe
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13:31 < xyproto> I want to go through all lines in a file, change each line
a bit and then write everything to a new file.  However, the textfile is about
500MB.  Is there a better way than reading it to string, splitting it into lines
then trying to assemble it again?  Any map-like function (ref Haskell/Python)?
13:32 < xyproto> (for dealing with files, that is)
13:32 < Namegduf> "Go Program" is the worst pun ever
13:32 < Namegduf> For a presentation title
13:32 < xyproto> Something like changeFile(inputFilename, outputFilename,
lineChangeFunction) ?
13:33 < xyproto> Namegduf: I agree :)
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13:33 < Namegduf> I consider that an advantage.
13:33 < nsf> xyproto: if you need to do it once
13:33 < nsf> don't use Go
13:33 < nsf> use ruby :)
13:33 < Namegduf> s/ruby/sed/
13:34 < Namegduf> :P
13:34 < nsf> whatever
13:34 < nsf> something that has required functionality
13:34 < Namegduf> xyproto: Use ReadlIne
13:35 < nsf> f = File.new("testfile")
13:35 < nsf> f.each {|line| puts "#{f.lineno}: #{line}" }
13:35 < nsf> that's ruby
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13:35 < nsf> or f.each_line
13:36 < nsf> afaik they are equivalent
13:37 < wrtp> for {s, err := in.ReadString('\n'); if err != nil {break};
out.WriteString(process(s))}
13:37 < wrtp> where in is a bufio.Reader and out is a bufio.Writer
13:37 < nsf> but you need also to compile it :)
13:38 < xyproto> nsf: The result needs to be possible to execute on Windows,
without installing anything extra.  As few dependencies as possible.
13:38 < nsf> ah
13:38 < nsf> then Go is the right choice
13:38 < nsf> statically compiled binaries will help you
13:38 < xyproto> nsf: other than that, I agree, ruby (or python) are better
choices :)
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13:39 < nsf> even my gaming windows installation has ruby and python :D
13:39 < nsf> lol
13:39 < xyproto> nsf: I don't even have a gaming windows installation,
starcraft 2 runs great in wine, if I feel the urge to play ;)
13:40 < nsf> I play different kind of games
13:40 < xyproto> wrtp: thank you, I will try that
13:40 < xyproto> nsf: kinds of games that does not run in a console
emulator, dosbox, wine or natively?  unpossible!
13:41 < nsf> try crysis 2 :D
13:41 < xyproto> nsf: ok, ok ;)
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13:43 < wrtp> xyproto: if speed is an issue, you might want to use ReadSlice
and Write
13:44 < xyproto> wrtp: cool, I'll look into it.  I've never used those.
13:45 < wrtp> xyproto: bufio is a very useful package
13:46 < xyproto> wrtp: yes, it looks great.  However, I have to search a bit
to find a way to open a file as something bufio.* will like.
13:46 < wrtp> xyproto: just use os.Open and then bufio.NewReader or
NewWriter
13:47 < wrtp> or, easier, bufio.NewReader(os.Stdin) will work
13:47 < xyproto> wrtp: great, thanks
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13:56 < xyproto> what would be the function signature of a function f() that
receives a function ?
13:56 < nsf> http://pastie.org/1713499
13:56 < xyproto> f(g func) did not work...
13:57 < nsf> yay!  it works (sort of)
13:57 < xyproto> interface{}?
13:57 < nsf> xyproto: what function?
13:57 < nsf> function has a type
13:57 <+iant> xyproto: you have to give the parameters and return types of
the function
13:57 < nsf> func(int)int
13:57 <+iant> you can't just say "some functoin"
13:57 < nsf> for example
13:57 < xyproto> aha
13:57 < nsf> func() for void func
13:58 < wrtp> f func(func())
13:58 < nsf> uhm
13:58 < nsf> ya, it's valid and confusing
13:58 < wrtp> or func f(arg func())
13:58 < nsf> that's better :)
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13:59 < wrtp> i don't think the former is confusing, really - it's a
variable holding a function that takes a function as an argument
13:59 < nsf> yes and it is confusing :)
13:59 < nsf> at least for me
13:59 < wrtp> any more confusing than f func(int) ?
14:00 < nsf> certainly
14:00 < wrtp> ok
14:00 < nsf> f func(f func())
14:00 < nsf> lol
14:00 < nsf> surprisingly it's less confusing that way
14:00 < wrtp> f func(f func(f func())) func(f func())
14:01 < wrtp> :-)
14:01 < nsf> :)
14:01 < nsf> f func(f func(f func())) (f func(f func()))
14:01 < wrtp> f func(func(func())) func(func())
14:01 < xyproto> you got the func alright :P
14:01 < nsf> I guess it's easy for a true LISPer
14:01 < nsf> lol
14:02 < nsf> oh, I think my variant isn't valid
14:02 < wrtp> more like a typed language like ML or haskell really.  you
can't describe types in lisp
14:02 < nsf> you can't name the parameter and the result using the same name
14:04 < wrtp> the usual signature for a three arg function in haskell, when
translated to Go, would be something like: f func(a int) func(b int) func(c int)
int
14:04 < wrtp> == f func(a, b, c int) int
14:06 < nsf> ok, now it's time for the most interesting part
14:06 < nsf> constant evaluation
14:07 * nsf dives into a gmplib's manual
14:07 < nsf> s/a/the/
14:07 < xyproto> ok, I followed your tips and wrote a function that takes an
input and output filename and a function that changes lines, using ReadSlice.
Does it look ok?  Critique & comments are welcome: http://go.pastie.org/1713543
14:07 < wrtp> nsf: you could just steal go's implementation for the time
being...
14:08 < nsf> wrtp: I will steal iant's
14:08 < nsf> partially
14:08 < nsf> :D
14:08 < nsf> since I'm using the same libs for arbitrary precision math as
gccgo
14:08 < wrtp> xyproto: you'd be better off using a bufio.Writer for your
output
14:08 < xyproto> wrtp: oh, ok
14:09 < xyproto> wrtp: thanks, I'll fix it
14:09 < wrtp> xyproto: and i'd probably just use a literal '\n' rather than
SEP
14:10 < nsf> for such a short app it doesn't matter
14:10 < wrtp> xyproto: if you're going to convert to string, then just use
bufio.ReadString
14:10 < wrtp> the only advantage of ReadSlice is it avoids allocating for
each line
14:10 < wrtp> but converting to string does an allocation anyway
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14:11 < xyproto> I don't really need string, when I think about it
14:11 < wrtp> xyproto: you should probably return an error from changeFile
rather than bool
14:12 < wrtp> then main can print the error if it wants to
14:12 < xyproto> wrtp: good point, I'll try that too
14:13 < wrtp> otherwise it looks ok
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14:14 < xyproto> however, now it does not produce any output anymore.  I
must be doing something wonky: http://go.pastie.org/1713571
14:14 < wrtp> xyproto: if you use bufio.Writer, remember to defer a flush
of it
14:14 < wrtp> yup, that's the problem
14:14 < wrtp> defer out.Flush()
14:15 < wrtp> after NewWriter
14:15 < xyproto> wrtp: aha, thanks
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14:15 < xyproto> wrtp: yey, it worked!  Thanks
14:15 * ww complains loudly about building gcc on a mac where macports causes
duelling versions of libiconv
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14:42 < steven> macports?
14:42 < steven> dude, use homebrew, ww
14:44 < jnwhiteh> homebrew doesn't have a gcc formula, because gcc is
included in XCode
14:44 < jnwhiteh> but yeah, I agree.
14:44 < steven> it has llvm and clang
14:44 < steven> oh wait, not clang.
14:44 < steven> oops
14:44 < ww> well..  has to be gcc because of gogcc
14:44 < steven> i wonder why theres no gcc/clang for mac outside of xcode?
14:44 < steven> i dont get that
14:44 < ww> and has to be built by hand because i need a cros compiler
14:45 < steven> and im banned for life from #macdev so i cant ask them
14:45 < jnwhiteh> ww: bummer =/
14:45 < ww> i'm not using macports to build it, just that macports is
getting in the way
14:46 * ww wonders if linux or something runs on the macbook air yet...
14:47 < jnwhiteh> Ubuntu still isn't fully compatible due to the GPT issue
14:47 < jnwhiteh> just get rid of macports and use homebrew
14:47 < jnwhiteh> and you shouldn't have any issues
14:47 < steven> exactly
14:47 < steven> homebrew is the awesomesauce
14:48 < jnwhiteh> indeed =)
14:48 < Namegduf> steven: What did you do?
14:49 < Namegduf> And yay, my 15 minute introduction to Go went well.
14:50 < steven> Namegduf: when?
14:50 < steven> Namegduf: also, awesome :)
14:50 < Namegduf> "lifetime ban".  It sounded like an amusing story..
14:50 < steven> oh right.
14:50 < steven> so remember how im really nice and cool and stuff?
14:50 < Namegduf> No.
14:50 < Namegduf> Haha, no, I'm kidding.
14:50 < Namegduf> Yes.
14:50 < steven> heh
14:50 < steven> well anyway, this is a pretty new thing
14:50 < steven> i used to be the opposite.
14:51 < Namegduf> Ah.
14:51 < steven> yeah.  not too amusing of a story.
14:51 < steven> sorry to disappoint
14:51 < Namegduf> 'sokay.
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15:03 < xyproto> os.Open wants a perm unit32 argument, what should it be set
to on Windows?  0666?  0?
15:04 < xyproto> uint32
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15:05 < wrtp> xyproto: opening for reading or writing?
15:05 < wrtp> for reading, 0
15:05 < wrtp> f
15:05 < wrtp> or
15:05 < wrtp> for writing, 0666 should be fine
15:05 < wrtp> (well, creating - for writing and reading without creating the
perm will be ignored)
15:06 < nsf> 0644 ;)
15:06 < nsf> ah windows
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15:07 < wrtp> 0666 is better - then umask can take effect
15:07 < wrtp> mind you, i prefer the plan 9 way of doing things -
permissions are inherited from the parent directory.  no need for umask.
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15:08 < waqas> Windows doesn't make use of the perm argument
15:09 < waqas> That is: syscall.Open in syscall_windows.go (called by
os.Open)
15:10 * nsf hates C++'s implicit conversions
15:10 < xyproto> wrtp: for writing, yes
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15:11 < xyproto> wrtp: the plan9 way sounds nicer, I agree
15:11 < nsf> unsigned int is ambigous with const char * :(
15:11 < aiju> nsf: what the FUCK?
15:11 < wrtp> xyproto: waqas is correct.  under windows the permission seems
to be ignored
15:11 < nsf> aiju: what?  :)
15:11 < aiju> don't char * and const char * need conversions?
15:11 < xyproto> ok, thanks
15:11 < nsf> aiju: from non-const to const conversion is implicit
15:12 < wrtp> xyproto: but in general, use 0666 - that way your code will
remain portable
15:12 < xyproto> ok
15:12 < wrtp> (when creating, that is)
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15:13 < xyproto> how about '\n' for newlines on *nix/win, how does the go
packages handle that?  Or do they just not relate to lines, only bytes?
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15:13 < kimelto> when/where?
15:14 < wrtp> xyproto: i think it's reasonable to use \n as line separator
and treat \r as space
15:14 < wrtp> or you could just strip off \r if you like
15:14 < wrtp> it's good to work on both \r\n and \n
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15:15 < aiju> oh god, \r\n
15:15 < wrtp> but writing...  well, i'd just write with \n only, but it
depends what tools need to read the output file
15:15 < kimelto> mac only use \r, right?
15:15 < aiju> no
15:15 < aiju> mac os (not x) did
15:15 < wrtp> some bits of mac do
15:15 < aiju> mac os x uses \n
15:15 < kimelto> oh!  Im a bit late.
15:16 < Namegduf> Use whichever is used by your file format
15:16 < wrtp> i think most windows tools work with \n these days
15:16 < aiju> after all os x is <hypocritical bs>FULL POSIX
COMPLIANT</hypocritical bs>
15:16 < Namegduf> If your file format doesn't define one, get a better file
format
15:16 < aiju> Namegduf: "text"
15:16 < Namegduf> For text files, \n suffices; only Notepad on Windows has a
problem
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15:16 < aiju> lots of windows programs have problems
15:16 < Namegduf> [citation needed]
15:17 < Namegduf> Wordpad works, Word works (IIRC)
15:17 < wrtp> yeah, i always use wordpad when i need to
15:17 < Namegduf> Notepad++ works
15:17 < wrtp> why they haven't fixed notepad, i do not know
15:17 < kimelto> use xml!
15:17 * kimelto hides
15:17 < aiju> kimelto: trollface.jpg
15:18 < wrtp> they're probably still using the same binary from 20 years ago
15:18 < aiju> it's windows
15:18 < aiju> they never fix anything
15:18 < aiju> it took them decades to fix the DLL path security hole
15:18 < aiju> everytime they fix something, some lobotomized flatworms
depended on it
15:19 < aiju> and much of MS's income comes from lobotomized flatworms
15:19 < Namegduf> It's an obscure but lucrative market.
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15:38 < steven> wow aiju you made 'labotomized flatworms' appear in the same
exact columns twice ina row
15:38 < steven> when monospace anyway
15:39 < steven> awesome <3
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15:43 < aiju> lol
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16:03 < TheMue> ah, my redis client is now working f*cking fine, yeah
16:05 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error:
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16:06 < steven> woot TheMue
16:06 < steven> also thanks for answering my ML question TheMue <3
16:06 < TheMue> hope it helped
16:06 < steven> woot, two of my go projects are on golang's projects page :D
16:06 < steven> gorm and godo!
16:07 < ww> why is everyone talking about ML these days?
16:07 < TheMue> I've got only one, the Tideland Common Go Library.  but it's
a bunch of packages.
16:08 < TheMue> ww: and why here?  *smile*
16:08 < ww> yesterday i was in the office of a prof here (university of
edinburgh) who said that if the ml people hadn't gotten bogged down in corner
cases of the type system and had instead made a good broad set of libraries it
would have overtaken python...
16:08 < ww> TheMue: "here" is probably because of interfaces.  i think go is
the first language since ml to emphasise them
16:08 < TheMue> i see a lot of haskel talks around
16:09 < ww> and "here" is, at informatics, in #swig and #go-nuts ...  so far
16:09 < TheMue> ww: hehe, and steven talks about the mailing list, not the
lang
16:09 < ww> oh....
16:09 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts
16:09 * ww blushes
16:09 < TheMue> maybe i should have used satire tags
16:10 -!- shvntr [~shvntr@113.84.148.123] has joined #go-nuts
16:10 < aiju> languages which care about being popular are likely not worth
using ;P
16:10 < TheMue> rofl
16:11 < ww> aiju: well there's unpopular, and then there's abandonware
16:11 < steven> ww: im talking about the mailing list
16:11 < steven> oh
16:11 < steven> sorry
16:11 < steven> he said it
16:11 < steven> btw, Go is pretty fricken cool
16:11 < steven> god bless you all real good
16:11 < steven> right in the face
16:11 < aiju> Historically, languages designed for other people to use have
been bad: Cobol, PL/I, Pascal, Ada, C++.  The good languages have been those that
were designed for their own creators: C, Perl, Smalltalk, Lisp.  -- Paul Graham
16:12 < steven> aiju: :)
16:12 < TheMue> sound reasonable
16:12 < TheMue> +s
16:14 -!- ShadowIce`
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16:15 * ww is surprised to see that gccgo is written in c++
16:15 -!- anticw [~anticw@c-67-169-68-180.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read
error: Connection reset by peer]
16:15 < aiju> i'm surprised to see that there is such a thing as gccgo
16:16 -!- jokooon [~jorinovsk@LMontsouris-156-26-32-176.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has
quit [Quit: Quitte]
16:16 * ww is suprised to see that there is such a thing as aiju
16:17 < aiju> haha
16:17 < aiju> well, i tend to surprise people, in both ways
16:18 -!- dfc [~dfc@124-169-149-145.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: dfc]
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16:29 -!- piranha [~piranha@5ED42E59.cm-7-5a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit:
Computer has gone to sleep.]
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joined #go-nuts
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16:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/RxuqPj by [Russ Cox] in go/ -- A+C: Roger Pau
Monné (individual CLA)
16:33 < plexdev> http://is.gd/mqk1Vu by [Russ Cox] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/ -- runtime: fix arm build
16:33 -!- leczb_ [~leczb@nat/google/x-qvkkojfukhyolxlw] has quit [Read error: No
route to host]
16:34 < jnwhiteh> I am in typing hell =/
16:34 < jnwhiteh> I'm interacting with a binary data object, so its a mix of
uint/int of different sizes
16:35 < jnwhiteh> so I think I'm going to leave the binary representation as
is, and then move them into 'standard' types for me to interact with.
16:35 < jnwhiteh> or I might cry =)
16:35 -!- leczb [~leczb@nat/google/x-rxhdmokrnwolvolc] has joined #go-nuts
16:35 < aiju> jnwhiteh: ehm
16:35 < aiju> jnwhiteh: what about encoding/binary?
16:36 < jnwhiteh> I'm using encoding/binary to get and put the data, that's
not the issue
16:36 < jnwhiteh> its interacting with the different values in their sized
forms, causes me to add casts absolutely everywhere so I'm going to fix that =)
16:38 -!- jokoon [~jorinovsk@LMontsouris-156-26-32-176.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has
quit [Quit: Quitte]
16:47 < TheMue> oh, first time I need the fallthrough statement
16:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8cJnvb by [Roger Pau Monné] in
go/src/pkg/http/cgi/testdata/ -- http: modified perl cgi test to remove newline
from env variables
16:50 < plexdev> http://is.gd/GqqDJF by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/http/pprof/
-- http/pprof: cpu profiling support
16:51 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-mweyoezzzuejhcwg] has quit [Read
error: Operation timed out]
16:53 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@lawn-gw.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts
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16:56 < TheMue> ah, create anonymous empty structs a la Configuration{} for
default values is nice
16:56 -!- Fish [~Fish@exo3753.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: So Long, and Thanks
for All the Fish]
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17:16 < skelterjohn> TheMue: what do you mean?
17:17 < xyproto> just that he likes initializing structs with the {}, with a
Java (?) influenced choice of words, I would guess?
17:17 < xyproto> TheMue: is it so?
17:18 < TheMue> skelterjohn: In my case I pass the configuration of my Redis
client as a struct.  If the internal values aren't set I take default values.  So
I can say rd := NewRedisDatabase(Configuration{})
17:18 < Namegduf> That's good.
17:18 < skelterjohn> what if some of the values are ints
17:18 < skelterjohn> and 0 isn't the default, but what you want?
17:18 < skelterjohn> what i do is, for any Config struct, I pair it with a
ConfigDefault() function
17:18 < skelterjohn> so I'd say NewRedisDatabase(ConfigDefault())
17:19 < TheMue> skelterjohn: Would be a way too, but I like also
NewRedisDatabase(Configuration{PoolSize: 25})
17:20 < skelterjohn> yes, that would require multiple lines with my method
17:20 < Namegduf> Zero value being default is good
17:20 < skelterjohn> on a related note, i always load up my config object
from the command line using goargcfg.googlecode.com/hg/argcfg :)
17:20 < Namegduf> Special casing zero to support it is sad
17:20 < Namegduf> I don't know what I prefer.
17:20 < TheMue> skelterjohn: hehe
17:21 -!- matsl [~matsl@1-1-4-2a.mal.sth.bostream.se] has joined #go-nuts
17:21 < taruti> didn't argcfg have a contaginous license?
17:21 < Namegduf> I see no licence here
17:21 < skelterjohn> i don't remember what license i gave it
17:21 < Namegduf> Or even copyright info
17:21 < skelterjohn> i really just made it for myself
17:21 < skelterjohn> someone else can outright steal it if they feel like
17:22 < Namegduf> It parses command line arguments into a map?
17:22 < skelterjohn> no
17:22 < skelterjohn> uses reflect to load up a struct
17:22 < Namegduf> Ah.
17:22 < skelterjohn> and even does so recursively
17:23 < skelterjohn> so that -A.B=5 will look for a struct field named "A"
inside your config object, and set its "B" field to 5
17:23 < skelterjohn> i've found it a real time saver
17:23 < Namegduf> Ah, I see.
17:23 < Namegduf> Interesting, not quite what I think I might want but gives
me ideas, thanks.
17:23 < skelterjohn> it's not really appropriate for "products"
17:23 < skelterjohn> but it's great for my experimentation code
17:24 * exch will stich with a good old fashioned optarg thingy parser
17:24 * Namegduf has an idea to make his server automatically persist global state
as a means of "configuration", but this presents issues with recovering from
serious screwups
17:24 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: feel free to rip off (or ignore) my code, as
you see fit
17:24 < TheMue> so, pushed into repo at google code
17:24 < Namegduf> I might just write an arbitrary argument->map thing
17:24 < TheMue> btw, redis is a nice little db
17:25 < xyproto> I like redis
17:26 < Namegduf> Basically I want to make configuration simple, and easy to
make web-based
17:26 < Namegduf> Because thousand line configuration files for IRC does not
improve its survival in non-technical communities
17:28 -!- matsl [~matsl@1-1-4-2a.mal.sth.bostream.se] has left #go-nuts
["Leaving"]
17:28 < TheMue> xyproto: My client is extreme flexible due to a simple
Command() method and result sets as well as transactions.  Additionally it handles
binaries ([]byte) and does some convenience mapping of []string and
map[string]string.
17:29 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.77.224] has joined #go-nuts
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17:36 < plexdev> http://is.gd/KjZzNK by [Ian Lance Taylor] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/darwin/ -- runtime/darwin: remove unused local variables.
17:37 < plexdev> http://is.gd/XSXZni by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/src/pkg/runtime/ -- runtime: always set *received in chanrecv.
17:37 < plexdev> http://is.gd/2mujo8 by [Ian Lance Taylor] in go/test/ --
test: match gccgo error messages for label.go and label1.go.
17:47 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts
17:53 < plexdev> http://is.gd/iXfEOs by [Russ Cox] in
go/src/pkg/runtime/pprof/ -- runtime/pprof: disable test on darwin
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18:01 < novabyte> does Go support runtime reflection?
18:02 < waqas> Yes
18:02 < waqas> See docs for the reflect package
18:02 < novabyte> waqas: could you point me to some example code?  :)
18:04 < waqas> fmt.Print* works using reflection.  Source here:
http://golang.org/src/pkg/fmt/print.go
18:04 < novabyte> waqas: thank you.
18:06 < novabyte> I saw on the mailing list there are some go-llvm bindings,
does anyone know in what state they're in?
18:12 < nsf> novabyte: I'm the author
18:12 < nsf> they are in an abandoned state
18:12 < novabyte> nsf: i was thinking of using the bindings in a university
project
18:12 < nsf> github.com/nsf/gollvm
18:12 < novabyte> nsf: nvm that answers my question
18:12 < nsf> novabyte: if it works for you, do it :)
18:13 < nsf> although I'm not sure it even compiles
18:13 < novabyte> nsf: lol, i dont know enough about Go and LLVM to fill in
the gaps as necessary
18:13 < nsf> I see
18:13 < novabyte> nsf: if I knew the language better I'd use them and
contribute back.
18:14 < novabyte> nsf: only have a few months to write a compiler :)
18:14 < nsf> LLVM is a good choice
18:14 < novabyte> nsf: def, wanted to combine it with learning a new
language ;)
18:14 < nsf> but I would use C/C++ for that
18:15 < novabyte> nsf: why?
18:15 < novabyte> nsf: i thought Go was a systems language?
18:15 < nsf> more libraries and tools and languages are stable
18:15 -!- m4dh4tt3r [~Adium@c-69-181-223-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined
#go-nuts
18:15 < nsf> Go is fine, but it's still in development
18:15 < nsf> and as you can see there is a lack of solid libraries
18:15 < nsf> (gollvm as an example)
18:16 < nsf> in fact I'm writing a compiler right now as well :D
18:16 < nsf> in C++
18:16 < novabyte> nsf: you've filled in support for a parser generator and
the early go-llvm bindings...  the rest I could fill in :)
18:16 < nsf> with parser generators there is a better situation
18:16 < nsf> goyacc afaik is complete and works
18:17 < novabyte> nsf: what about golemon?
18:17 < nsf> well, it may or may not work
18:17 < novabyte> nsf: lol
18:17 < nsf> it was implemented via hacks
18:17 < novabyte> nsf: oh ok.
18:17 < nsf> because lemon originally uses union as an important part of its
structure
18:18 < nsf> I've replaced union usage with interface{} based hacks
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18:18 < nsf> not sure if it's 100% correct
18:18 < nsf> so it may or may not work :)
18:18 < novabyte> nsf: i c.
18:18 < novabyte> nsf: so your compiler project, for a personal language?
18:19 < nsf> currently yeah, I'm the only developer and spec is in my head
18:19 < nsf> but I have big plans :)
18:19 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Client Quit]
18:19 < nsf> something like C with Go syntax
18:19 < novabyte> nsf: you wanted manual memory management?
18:19 < nsf> yes
18:20 < nsf> it's not like I want it to use always
18:20 < nsf> but I need a good low level language
18:20 < novabyte> nsf: well fit generics in too and I'll come running ;)
18:20 < nsf> yes, there is a plan for that as well
18:20 < nsf> but first milestone is to provide all the C features
18:20 < novabyte> nsf: I do *really* like the simplicity in the Go syntax
18:21 < nsf> my syntax is even more simpler :)
18:21 < nsf> Go has few bad places
18:21 < nsf> for example:
18:21 < novabyte> nsf: but I hate the auto semi-colon stuff, why would you
want the lexer to insert tokens for you...
18:21 < nsf> (*int)(x)
18:21 < nsf> you can't say whether it's a pointer deref + function call or
type cast
18:21 < nsf> I use different syntax for type casting:
18:21 < nsf> <*int>x
18:22 < nsf> another minor problem with compound literals
18:22 < novabyte> nsf: or just turn cast into a keyword?
18:22 < nsf> novabyte: no, it's a bad idea
18:22 < novabyte> nsf: why?
18:22 -!- unofficialmvp1 [~dev@94-62-164-227.b.ipv4ilink.net] has joined #go-nuts
18:22 < uriel> nsf: <*int>x has its own issues
18:22 -!- unofficialmvp1 [~dev@94-62-164-227.b.ipv4ilink.net] has left #go-nuts []
18:22 < nsf> like C++'s static_cast<*int>(x) or D's cast(int)x, too
much typing
18:22 < nsf> uriel: no
18:22 < nsf> at least not now
18:23 < nsf> uriel: name one
18:23 < nsf> :)
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18:23 < nsf> C++ has issues with that syntax inside template definitions,
but its because expressions are allowed inside those brackets
18:24 < nsf> template <typename X, a > b>
18:24 < nsf> my parser is LALR(1) without any hacks at the moment
18:24 < exch> "(*int)(x)" how does that translate to a pointer deref +
function call?
18:24 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-agcsklajxyhkwpog] has quit [Read
error: Operation timed out]
18:25 < nsf> var int *func(int)
18:25 < nsf> (*int)(x)
18:25 < novabyte> nsf: too much typing...  i call it clarity...  :)
18:25 < nsf> int is not a keyword in Go
18:25 < exch> you cant do that
18:25 < exch> oh wait
18:25 < exch> mm
18:25 < exch> forgot about the keyword is not really a keyword thing
18:25 < nsf> exch: int is a predeclared identifier :)
18:25 < exch> yea
18:26 < novabyte> nsf: really?  why?
18:26 < nsf> novabyte: why what?
18:26 < exch> var int bool; int = false
18:26 < exch> nice
18:26 < nsf> Go specs specifies all the types that way
18:26 < nsf> ask Go devs :)
18:26 < novabyte> nsf: is int a predeclared identifier?  rather than a
keyword?
18:26 < nsf> novabyte: yes, according to Go spec
18:27 < novabyte> nsf: interesting but very strange to me...
18:27 < nsf> because it's just another type name
18:27 < nsf> like any other
18:27 < nsf> type Int int
18:27 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:27 < nsf> etc.
18:27 < novabyte> nsf: hmmm ok.
18:27 < nsf> it confuses most syntax highlighters though :)
18:27 < novabyte> nsf: so this language of yours anything I can try out ;)
18:28 < nsf> novabyte: when it's ready, maybe
18:28 < novabyte> nsf: sure
18:28 < nsf> currently I have no idea what I will end up with
18:28 < novabyte> nsf: i keep thinking of a Go with manual memory management
+ generics.
18:29 < nsf> yeah, me too
18:29 < nsf> in fact I'm not just thinking :) I'm working on it
18:29 < novabyte> nsf: lol
18:29 < nsf> but also few other quirks
18:29 < aiju> syntax highlighting is evil anyway ;P
18:29 < nsf> like union types are back, pointer arithmetic is back, *void is
back
18:29 < novabyte> nsf: I don't know Go well enough to notice it's quirks
18:29 < aiju> ergo, confusing syntax highlighters is a good thing
18:29 < novabyte> nsf: ah ok.
18:30 < nsf> ah, that issue with compound literals which requires hacks for
LALR(1)
18:30 < nsf> type X [1]int
18:30 < nsf> if X{1}[0] == 1 { }
18:30 < aiju> it's basically C in green
18:30 < nsf> it's ambiguous
18:30 < nsf> because X is a valid expression
18:31 < nsf> and LALR(1) parser will think that this is:
18:31 < nsf> if X{1}
18:31 < nsf> a valid if statement
18:31 < novabyte> nsf: yep
18:31 < nsf> go itself resolves that issue by disallowing that and allowing
this:
18:31 < nsf> if (X{1}[0] == 1) { }
18:31 < nsf> I use different syntax for compound literals
18:31 < nsf> <type>{...}
18:32 < aiju> if it were up to me, I'd reintroduce braces-free if statements
18:32 < novabyte> aiju: its not worth the agro ;)
18:32 < nsf> aiju: yeah, but it's kind of hard to accomplish
18:32 < nsf> without returning () around conditional expr
18:33 < aiju> novabyte: this is something which really bugs me and only
after i've used go quite a lot
18:33 < nsf> novabyte: regarding semicolon insertion
18:34 < nsf> I agree that compiler shouldn't force that
18:34 -!- dahankzter [~henrik@92-244-3-192.customers.ownit.se] has joined #go-nuts
18:34 < nsf> e.g.  two options: use that feature or not
18:34 < novabyte> nsf: reminds me of javascript's...  "let me complete that
for you"
18:34 < nsf> it should be enabled/disabled via compiler switch or via
heuristic
18:34 < novabyte> nsf: agreed
18:34 < aiju> novabyte: javascript has such a thing?
18:34 < novabyte> nsf: compiler switch
18:35 < nsf> novabyte: I'd go with both :)
18:35 < nsf> actually I like semicolon insertion
18:35 < nsf> so the default will be it
18:35 < novabyte> aiju:
http://inimino.org/~inimino/blog/javascript_semicolons
18:35 < nsf> but then compiler detects if you use manual semicolons
18:35 < nsf> and disables that feature
18:35 < nsf> allowing you to write all kinds of things like:
18:36 < nsf> func x()
18:36 < nsf> {
18:36 < nsf> etc.
18:36 < novabyte> aiju: it was just a quick google for an article about it,
but yes javascript has optional semi-colons
18:36 < nsf> (e.g.  '{' on its own line)
18:36 < aiju> novabyte: oh just the semicolons
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18:36 < variable> kimelto: hey
18:36 < aiju> novabyte: i thought you meant something like automatic
variable completion shit
18:36 < novabyte> nsf: why bother complicating the compiler, just flag it?
18:36 < novabyte> aiju: nope sorry
18:36 < nsf> novabyte: I don't think it's such a big complication
18:37 < nsf> it's heuristic after all
18:37 < nsf> it gives no promises that it would work
18:37 < novabyte> nsf: maybe I'm just lazy :)
18:37 < nsf> but if it would work for most cases, it's good
18:37 < aiju> out of 88 if statements in one file i wrote, *67* are one line
if statements
18:38 < nsf> aiju: :)
18:38 < novabyte> aiju: if ( something-true) { do-something } // one line :)
18:38 < aiju> novabyte: that one hurts my eyes an incredible amount
18:39 < aiju> it's the code equivalent of sodium hydroxide
18:39 < aiju> and, gofmt would split it, i suppose
18:39 -!- variable [~variable@unaffiliated/variable] has left #go-nuts ["Trojan
horse ran out of hay"]
18:39 < novabyte> aiju: can you do something-true && do-something in Go?
18:39 < nsf> aiju: how about a special if statement form exclusively for
you?
18:39 < nsf> expr ? expr
18:39 < aiju> nsf: hahaha
18:39 < nsf> for example
18:39 < aiju> like in bash
18:39 -!- [Pete_27] [~noname@110-174-103-31.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined
#go-nuts
18:39 < aiju> i like that one even les
18:39 < aiju> +s
18:39 < nsf> a > b ? max = a
18:40 < nsf> lol
18:40 < aiju> i'd rather live with the three line monster, then
18:40 < nsf> Go's are fine in one line
18:40 < nsf> if a > b { max = a }
18:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/y9u5dJ by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/flag/ --
flag: fix error in documentation example.
18:40 < str1ngs> hmm I cant os.Copy or os.Cp is it in another package?
18:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/Uoxft2 by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/test/fixedbugs/ -- test: match gccgo error messages for bug274.go.
18:40 < str1ngs> find*
18:40 < plexdev> http://is.gd/QVjASU by [Rob Pike] in go/test/ -- test/run:
clear $E in case it's already set in environment.
18:41 < novabyte> aiju: really so it's only if (something-true) do-something
is acceptable to you?
18:41 < nsf> I think it's possible to have both
18:41 < nsf> if (a > b) max = a
18:41 < nsf> and
18:41 < nsf> if a > b { max = a }
18:42 < nsf> but I won't do this
18:42 < nsf> :)
18:42 < aiju> i'm not entirely sure about it
18:42 < nsf> but you have to disallow paren expr in the second form
18:42 < nsf> like 'if (a > b) { max = a }'
18:42 < nsf> is not valid anymore
18:42 < novabyte> nsf: i always prefer the "one true way" approach
18:43 < nsf> novabyte: I like Go's syntax too and I don't understand aiju
18:43 < str1ngs> python is -> attaway :P
18:43 < nsf> because writing parens around conditional expr is very painful
to me
18:43 < novabyte> nsf: just pick a form and go for it...  my preference is
whichever is easier form for the parser ;)
18:43 < nsf> novabyte: I've picked long time ago
18:44 < aiju> note that i'm not just getting pissed off about something
which looks strange or something (like most people who discouver Go), it's actual
experience
18:44 < novabyte> nsf: yeh im sure...  it was just a general statement
18:44 < aiju> and, i like Go's syntax, too
18:44 < str1ngs> os.Copy where is it?
18:44 < aiju> another thing from experience: a two-statement for loop
18:44 < nsf> str1ngs: copy is a built-in function
18:44 < nsf> but
18:44 < nsf> uhm..
18:45 < str1ngs> to copy one file to another?
18:45 < nsf> what do you need?
18:45 < nsf> ah, there is no such thing
18:45 < aiju> something along "for x := getchar(); x != '0' {println(x)}"
18:45 < str1ngs> so os.Pipe ?
18:45 < nsf> open one file for reading, open another for writing
18:45 < str1ngs> ya Pipe I guess
18:45 < nsf> and io.Copy
18:46 < str1ngs> Pipe returns a connected pair of Files; reads from r return
bytes written to w.  It returns the files and an Error, if any.
18:46 < str1ngs> let me check io.Copy should have checked io sonner
18:47 < aiju> str1ngs: Pipe is for communicating between processes
18:47 < aiju> not copying files
18:47 < str1ngs> it works on file descriptors
18:47 < str1ngs> but anyways io.Copy is better
18:48 < dfr|work> argh.....  interface{} doesn't cover functions, seems
like?
18:48 < dfr|work> or am I missing something?
18:49 -!- rutkowski [~adrian@178235051224.walbrzych.vectranet.pl] has joined
#go-nuts
18:49 < nsf> dfr|work: it should work for everything
18:49 < dfr|work> nsf, okay, lemme make sure that what I have works then.
Thanks
18:50 < str1ngs> aiju: If I confused Pipe sorry not use to working with low
level stuff
18:50 < aiju> no need to apologize
18:50 < aiju> happens ;)
18:52 < novabyte> aiju & nsf: does Go support annotations (e.g.  @DbField)?
18:52 < aiju> what do you mean?
18:52 < novabyte> aiju: like Java annotations?
18:52 < aiju> i don't know Java
18:52 < nsf> yeah, I'm not sure what it means
18:53 < nsf> I don't know Java as well :)
18:53 < gmilleramilar> novabyte: not really
18:53 < aiju> (i know just enough to stay away from it, as far as possible)
18:53 < nsf> there are tags for struct field
18:53 < nsf> fields*
18:53 < gmilleramilar> novabyte: you can put tags on struct fields
18:53 < nsf> not sure if it's close
18:53 < gmilleramilar> but that's about it.
18:53 < nsf> yeah
18:54 < novabyte> gmilleramilar: hmmm that might be enough ;)
18:54 < uriel> hmmm...  I'm the only one that can't access this anymore:
18:54 < gmilleramilar> nsf: java annotations can go on lots of different
things, and have a much more extensive reflection model
18:54 < uriel>
http://codereview.appspot.com/4276060/diff/12001/doc/go_spec.html
18:54 < aiju> uriel: no
18:54 < nsf> gmilleramilar: thanks for information :)
18:54 < skelterjohn> uriel: is that the thing about generics?
18:54 < uriel> skelterjohn: yes
18:54 < skelterjohn> i could never view it, even when you first posted it
here
18:54 < uriel> or was
18:54 < nsf> uriel: "You do not have permission to view this issue"
18:54 < nsf> :(
18:54 < nsf> I know what it is
18:55 < str1ngs> this when I'm done I'm going to have a unix DSL ie cp(src
string, dest string)
18:55 < nsf> April's fool day is soon
18:55 < uriel> nsf: that is what I said ;P
18:55 < nsf> hehe
18:55 < nsf> didn't know that :)
18:55 < nsf> but I'm sure that's what it is
18:56 < novabyte> gmilleramilar: ummm, could you point me to example code?
18:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/U9TLFI by [Albert Strasheim] in
go/src/pkg/net/ -- net: add FileConn, FilePacketConn, FileListener
18:57 < plexdev> http://is.gd/VCgFee by [Albert Strasheim] in
go/src/pkg/syscall/ -- syscall: GetsockoptInt for darwin, freebsd.
18:58 < dfr|work> nsf, ah, i see..  The issue us that []string and
[]interface{} are different beasts.
18:58 < nsf> dfr|work: yes
18:58 -!- ako [~nya@fuld-590c71a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #go-nuts
18:58 < dfr|work> nsf, so i basically cannot ask for a slice of "whatever",
right?
18:59 < nsf> you can
18:59 < nsf> but you can't ask for "whatever slice"
18:59 < kimelto> may I have a slice of bread?
18:59 < dfr|work> nsf, well, what I mean is a slice of 'whatevers' in it :)
18:59 < nsf> slice of "whatever" is []interface{}
18:59 < nsf> but you want to use concrete slice as abstract slice
18:59 < dfr|work> nsf, ah, i see.  But a slice of strings is also a slice of
whatevers.
19:00 < nsf> no, not really
19:00 < nsf> Go can't think of it as slice of whatevers
19:00 < nsf> only you can
19:00 < nsf> :)
19:00 < dfr|work> nsf, yea.  Plus, slice of whatevers can add whatever to
it..  whereas slice of strings is more restrictive.
19:00 < nsf> yes
19:00 < dfr|work> nsf, oh well.  Anyhow..  there goes my implementation of
for_each.  :(
19:00 < dfr|work> nsf, oh wellz
19:00 -!- aho [~nya@fuld-590c7b20.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255
seconds]
19:01 < nsf> many tried using Go for generics kind of thing
19:01 < nsf> it doesn't work, live with it
19:01 -!- Venom_bbl [~pjacobs@66.54.185.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:01 < nsf> :)
19:01 < dfr|work> nsf, oh, I'll keep trying, no worries.  ;)
19:01 < dfr|work> nsf, that's how I learn intricacies of language -- trying
to do weird things and see if I can get away with it :)
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19:02 < nsf> I learn much more now when I'm trying to create a language that
looks like Go but isn't Go
19:02 < nsf> :)
19:02 < nsf> many syntax and semantics quirks come out
19:03 < dfr|work> nsf, to do that you first have to have a good idea of what
go is, and I'm lacking on that front.  ;)
19:03 < nsf> well, I've made an autocompletion for Go previously, yeah
19:03 -!- yonkeltron [~yonkeltro@unaffiliated/yonkeltron] has joined #go-nuts
19:04 < yonkeltron> does go have generics?
19:04 < nsf> yonkeltron: no
19:04 < skelterjohn> lol
19:04 < yonkeltron> why lol?  it's a valid question!
19:04 < yonkeltron> nsf: thanks.
19:04 < aiju> yonkeltron: there has been some sort of suggestion about that
one recently
19:04 < nsf> yonkeltron: it's commonly asked :)
19:04 < aiju> (or an early april fools' joke)
19:05 < nsf> and it looks like there will be an april fools' joke about that
19:05 < nsf> :D
19:05 < skelterjohn> yonkeltron: because of the discussion two minutes ago
19:05 < skelterjohn> was about go+generics
19:05 < yonkeltron> ah.  are there plans for generics or some other
mechanism to preserve type-safety while making it not suck to produce related data
structures?
19:05 < yonkeltron> skelterjohn: haha!
19:05 < aiju> yonkeltron: nobody knows
19:05 < dfr|work> nsf, I'd suggest just sayign that go doesn't scale, and
rewriting the compiler to compile to java bytecode.
19:05 < yonkeltron> i imagine it is asked pretty often...
19:05 < dfr|work> nsf, that's so much more believable ;D
19:05 < nsf> yonkeltron: certainly there is a wish like that in community
19:05 < aiju> dfr|work: what the fuck?  Java scales even less than Go
19:06 < novabyte> yonkeltron: http://golang.org/doc/go_faq.html#generics
19:06 < yonkeltron> i was actually wondering if rob pike was in here.  he's
old friends with my faculty from uni
19:06 < nsf> dfr|work: uhm, what are you talking about?  :)
19:06 < dfr|work> nsf, april fools
19:06 < skelterjohn> yonkeltron: typically no, he isn't in the irc chan
19:06 < nsf> dfr|work: ah
19:06 < dfr|work> aiju, that's the point ;)
19:06 < yonkeltron> skelterjohn: ah.  gotcha.
19:06 < nsf> dfr|work: yeah that would be funny
19:06 < skelterjohn> and when i say typically, i mean i have never known him
to be here
19:07 < skelterjohn> he reads the mailing list though
19:07 < yonkeltron> novabyte: that's a fair deflection, actually.
19:07 < yonkeltron> skelterjohn: good to know.  heh.
19:07 < dfr|work> nsf, that joke is a bit old in the ruby community, so.....
;)
19:07 < yonkeltron> my faculty always spoke rather highly of him from their
time at bell labs, i believe
19:07 < nsf> hehe
19:07 < aiju> ruby is a joke
19:07 < skelterjohn> but he might have a secret irc identity
19:07 < yonkeltron> aiju: don't hate.
19:07 < skelterjohn> maybe aiju is really rob pike
19:07 < novabyte> yonkeltron: I like the bit "we don't feel an urgency for
them, although we understand some programmers do."
19:07 < aiju> hahaha
19:07 < dfr|work> aiju, i think we went over that already.
19:07 < aiju> yonkeltron: i don't see any reason not to hate a language
which has a ".nonzero?" method on integers
19:08 < yonkeltron> aiju: ok, look
19:08 < aiju> and yeah, everyone is full of me talking about it ;P
19:08 < yonkeltron> aiju: let's say you're friends with lisp
19:08 < skelterjohn> it's true
19:08 < yonkeltron> and lisp meets this chick smalltalk
19:08 < skelterjohn> i'm done with the aiju vs ruby rant
19:08 < nsf> another holywar
19:08 < skelterjohn> no need to prolong it, yonkeltron
19:08 < yonkeltron> and smalltalk is pretty hot stuff
19:08 < yonkeltron> they have a kid
19:08 < yonkeltron> boom
19:08 < yonkeltron> why hate?
19:08 < yonkeltron> ok
19:08 < yonkeltron> fair enough
19:08 < nsf> I like ruby but as a tool for _shell_ tasks
19:08 < novabyte> yonkeltron: just leave it
19:08 < nsf> not for serious stuff
19:08 < yonkeltron> hehe
19:08 < yonkeltron> ok, ok
19:09 < dfr|work> yonkeltron, if you're a ruby fanboi, this chat is not too
friendly.  Be careful ;)
19:09 < yonkeltron> well, i believe that you don't really know a lanaugage
unless you can name 5 non-trivial things about it which you hate
19:09 < dfr|work> yonkeltron, yea, that doesn't prevent people from looking
about weird things and saying it sux0rz :P
19:09 < skelterjohn> that might be true for people in the ruby community
19:09 < novabyte> yonkeltron: basically use whatever lang you like, and if
you dont like it dont use it :) (or write your own)
19:10 < aiju> yonkeltron: that was just an example, pretty symbolic for the
whole language
19:10 < nsf> yeah, writing your own is the best idea
19:10 < aiju> and i really don't want to discuss it
19:10 < novabyte> nsf: that was a reference to you ;)
19:10 < aiju> (and most people here don't want me to discuss it)
19:10 < yonkeltron> well discussions about language philosophies are
often-interesting but rarely-fruitful
19:10 < nsf> novabyte: I'm saying it's not because of me
19:10 < nsf> simply because more languages is more choice
19:11 < nsf> and eventually all langauges are affected by each other
19:11 < nsf> faster and better evolution as a result
19:11 < skelterjohn> i don't think "choice" is a good thing, by definition
19:11 < novabyte> nsf: the reference "write your own"
19:11 < nsf> yonkeltron: talks about languages are cheap
19:11 < nsf> without trying to do something
19:11 < yonkeltron> nsf: same with type systems, imho...
19:12 * ww peeks in on the channel...
19:12 < str1ngs> can we all agree that Java sucks though?
19:12 < aiju> yeah
19:12 < nsf> str1ngs: sure
19:12 < aiju> Java sucks through a tin straw
19:12 < aiju> +h
19:12 < str1ngs> ok we have common ground..  continue
19:12 < aiju> haha
19:12 < novabyte> str1ngs: sigh...
19:12 < aiju> 20:14 < yonkeltron> nsf: same with type systems, imho...
19:12 < yonkeltron> java the language, sucks...
19:12 < aiju> strong typing, done ;P
19:12 * ww looks at the channel topic
19:12 < aiju> java the vm, sucks even more
19:13 < nsf> well, I can't say java sucks
19:13 < nsf> I don't know it
19:13 < nsf> I've written zero lines of java code
19:13 < aiju> i've written 200 lines or so
19:13 < nsf> but I've seen java apps
19:13 < novabyte> str1ngs: check out http://www.mirah.org/
19:13 < nsf> and it wasn't the best thing I saw
19:13 < aiju> yonkeltron: type systems is probably the best example for
"right thing for the right job"
19:14 * ww tries to change the topic to alt.lang.gripe...  and fails
19:14 < nsf> JVM is a failure platform
19:14 < yonkeltron> novabyte: mirah seems cool, def
19:14 < nsf> like you know there is a language called Boo
19:14 < nsf> for .NET/Mono platfor
19:14 < novabyte> aiju: should avoid it, it looks like ruby code
19:14 < nsf> platform*
19:14 < nsf> I saw its manifesto
19:14 < nsf> and I was really inspiried
19:15 < nsf> but then I've discovered what .NET actually is
19:15 < skelterjohn> by what evidence do you claim that "JVM is a failure
platform"?
19:15 < novabyte> yonkeltron: i'm toying with it at the moment.  nice idea.
19:15 < nsf> fuck that "solid platform"
19:15 < yonkeltron> novabyte: good to know
19:15 < nsf> skelterjohn: well, for me
19:15 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, it was bought by Oracle.  :(
19:15 < nsf> everything that has garbage collector is
19:15 < yonkeltron> dfr|work: you're funny!
19:15 < nsf> even Go, sorry :D
19:15 < str1ngs> GC is good to some regards
19:15 < nsf> yeah
19:16 < novabyte> nsf: what a ridiculously sweeping statement...
19:16 < waqas> "everything that has garbage c" - that gives me a lot of
context ^^
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19:16 < nsf> but for a strongly typed language that tries to be fast
19:16 < dfr|work> yonkeltron, the act of having been bought made it a
failure platform.  :(
19:16 < nsf> I don't think so
19:16 < yonkeltron> hehe
19:16 < yonkeltron> perhaps you're right but who can tell
19:16 < yonkeltron> ok
19:16 < nsf> I don't mind using lua for example
19:16 < dfr|work> yonkeltron, before then it was only debatable.  :)
19:16 < yonkeltron> humans, thank you for entertaining my questions
19:16 < yonkeltron> i wish you all well
19:16 < yonkeltron> have a peaceful weekend
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["Killed buffer"]
19:17 < dfr|work> why did he decide I was human?  :(
19:17 < skelterjohn> i hope to have a violent weekend
19:17 < dfr|work> hurts my programmed lack of feelings
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19:17 < nsf> I hope to have a productive weekend
19:17 < nsf> :)
19:18 < dfr|work> nsf, lies.
19:18 < nsf> more type checking for crawl and const expression evaluation as
a minimum
19:18 < dfr|work> nsf, I'm doing two piloting lessons over weekend.  And
need to work on my SC2 =/
19:18 < dfr|work> and maybe am gonna see if I can find enclosure for my
hobby elwire project =/
19:18 < aiju> 20:18 < skelterjohn> by what evidence do you claim that
"JVM is a failure platform"?
19:19 < aiju> christ, just look at JVM cpu/memory use
19:19 < nsf> Java doesn't have unsigned integers and can't have arrays as
true struct fields
19:19 < nsf> wtf
19:19 < skelterjohn> look at how many places its used
19:19 < nsf> what were they thinking about?
19:19 < aiju> skelterjohn: flies and shit
19:19 -!- dahankzter [~henrik@92-244-3-192.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Quit:
Leaving.]
19:19 < skelterjohn> my point is, you need to define "failure"
19:20 < Namegduf> Java
19:20 < nsf> :D
19:20 * Namegduf reads up now
19:20 < aiju> Java has double and Double
19:20 < Namegduf> Wow, psuedorelevant.
19:20 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@82.84.77.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
19:20 < aiju> language redundancy on a whole new level
19:20 < Namegduf> You're right anyway, in order to call something a failure
you need usable failure criteria
19:20 < novabyte> bye all, thanks for the chat...  not interested in
lang/platform flaming
19:21 < aiju> haha
19:21 -!- novabyte [~novabyte@m5.mullvad.net] has left #go-nuts []
19:21 < str1ngs> lol
19:21 * aiju adds a 1 to "people scared of IRC"
19:21 < str1ngs> ok any more Rubyist or Java beans left?
19:21 * Namegduf pulls out his pitchfork
19:22 < aiju> the last good thing built with ruby were lasers
19:22 < Namegduf> Burn the witches
19:22 -!- dahankzter [~henrik@92-244-3-192.customers.ownit.se] has joined #go-nuts
19:22 < str1ngs> if you are not a go nut GTFO.  nsf you can stay
19:22 -!- dahankzter [~henrik@92-244-3-192.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Client
Quit]
19:22 < aiju> haha
19:22 < nsf> lol
19:22 < aiju> INTERFACES OR GTFO
19:22 < nsf> what makes me so different?
19:22 < nsf> ah, yes, I still support gocode
19:23 < aiju> i haven't written much Go recently, i probably should quit :x
19:23 < aiju> i wasted my time figuring out that a JIT in lisp is 10 times
(actually more) slower than an interpreter in javascript
19:23 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-lyfimpincrrhyovs] has joined #go-nuts
19:23 < nsf> aiju: :D
19:24 < aiju> i've been reading LISP propaganda
19:24 < nsf> yeah, sometimes performances surprise me as well
19:24 < aiju> "LISP can be faster than C, because of access to the compiler"
19:24 < nsf> like this parrot virtual machine
19:24 -!- rtharper [~tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht] has quit [Remote host closed
the connection]
19:24 < aiju> and now WHAT THE FUCK
19:24 < nsf> it ten times slower than python for example
19:24 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts
19:24 < nsf> who needs that kind of thing
19:24 < Namegduf> Wow, that's impressive.
19:24 < aiju> i simply can't work with languages that slow
19:24 < Namegduf> aiju: Ruby is slower
19:24 < Namegduf> Ruby is the god of slow
19:24 < aiju> Namegduf: ruby is always slower
19:25 < aiju> has to be a result of special relativity or something
19:25 < Namegduf> Makes sense.
19:25 < aiju> it's probably an exception
19:25 < Namegduf> I mean, PHP is a horribly bloated and slow language
19:25 < aiju> "given right frames of reference, anything can be fast, except
Ruby"
19:26 < aiju> PHP is bloated?  huh?
19:26 -!- rtharper [~tomh@188-220-5-137.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts
19:26 < aiju> it's truly badly designed, yes
19:26 -!- rtharper [~tomh@188-220-5-137.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Changing
host]
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19:26 < nsf> also PHP does this:
19:26 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C6C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host
closed the connection]
19:26 < nsf> a + b + c as (a + (b + c))
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19:27 < nsf> :\
19:27 -!- femtoo [~femto@95-89-249-242-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts
19:27 < nsf> like, why...  every other lang I know is left assoc
19:28 < ww> nsf: left handed language desIgners?
19:28 < nsf> I call it: "designed by accident"
19:28 < Namegduf> That is PHP, yes
19:28 < nsf> when author didn't really know what he's doing
19:28 < aiju> this sounds more like a perl feature
19:28 < Namegduf> aiju: PHP uses fucktons of RAM and is prone to leak
because the author not only didn't know what he was doing
19:28 < aiju> remember that operator precedence chart?
19:29 < Namegduf> He publicly and unrepentantly doesn't CARE to know what
he's doing
19:29 < ww> well...  rIght or left assocIatIvIty Is arbItrary...  rIght
19:29 < ww> sorry, I key Is stuck
19:29 < nsf> :D
19:29 < aiju> didn't one php dev quit because he hated jews?
19:29 < nsf> I think for some languages it's arbitrary (as defined in spec)
19:30 < nsf> but most implementations still use left associativity
19:30 -!- deso_ [~deso@91-64-173-62-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts
19:31 < aiju> this happens when people inhale too much math
19:31 < aiju> gets them believing things like this are unimportant because
their math prof says so
19:31 < nsf> haskell happens
19:31 < nsf> :\
19:31 * nsf hides
19:31 < aiju> (x+1)-1 and x+(1-1) can mean different things in computing
19:31 < aiju> esp.  floating point arithmetic
19:31 < nsf> ya
19:32 < ww> so long as It's consIstent...
19:32 < aiju> 1 + 1 != 2, the magic world of floating point
19:32 < Namegduf> It should == 2
19:33 < Namegduf> Floating point can represent integers in a certain range
exactly
19:33 < Namegduf> And that certainly includes "1"
19:33 -!- dahankzter [~henrik@92-244-3-192.customers.ownit.se] has joined #go-nuts
19:33 < aiju> Namegduf: i remember seeing some pretty simple example where
weird stuff happened
19:33 < Namegduf> aiju: Perhaps you're thinking 0.1 + 0.1
19:33 < aiju> i think it even was with integers
19:34 * aiju scratches head
19:34 < aiju> Namegduf: and yeah, i know the theory, Intel floating point
manages to defy it ;P
19:34 < Namegduf> aiju: If x was sufficiently huge that it was outside the
safe integer range, your example could work
19:34 < aiju> Namegduf: no, it was two or three simple and small integers,
but i really forgot it
19:34 < Namegduf> Ah, okay.
19:35 < nsf> also I wonder sometimes why some really productive people do
stupid things
19:35 < nsf> for example
19:35 < nsf> minecraft game
19:35 < nsf> a pseudo random world
19:35 < aiju> hahahahahaha
19:35 < aiju> minecraft is (from a sweng point of view) pure shit
19:35 < nsf> but author uses absolute floating point values always
19:35 < nsf> why!!!?!?!??!
19:35 < aiju> nsf: he is clueless
19:35 < str1ngs> is there away to pass multi value returns to other methods
and functions.  ie path.Join(os.Getwd(),"foo")
19:35 < aiju> i mean it's written in JAVA and he hates GIT in favour of
SUBVERSION
19:35 < nsf> I mean seriously, it should use some kind of offset tables
19:36 < nsf> because float losses precision very fast
19:36 < aiju> ah
19:36 < aiju> 0.1 + 0.2 == 0.3
19:36 < Namegduf> Minecraft's server is bad on resources even for *Java*
19:36 < aiju> so, no integers
19:36 < Namegduf> Yeah, when you get fractional all bets are off.
19:36 < nsf> but I must say the game isn't that bad for two years of
development
19:36 < nsf> but it could be much better
19:36 < Namegduf> Minecraft the game isn't a bad idea
19:37 < aiju> yeah
19:37 < aiju> but the implementation _SUCKS HORRIBLY_
19:37 < Namegduf> It horrifies me how many people will pay a total of
millions for an alpha with no guarantee of completeness
19:37 < Namegduf> I'm sure EA are taking notes
19:37 < nsf> hehe
19:37 < aiju> EA games pissed me off so much in the past
19:37 < nsf> AAA companies have different idea of successful game
19:37 < Namegduf> I mean seriously, he could have quit and retired and no
one would have had recourse at that point
19:37 < nsf> they make games like assassin's creed
19:38 < Namegduf> s/games like .*/bad games/
19:38 < nsf> very beautiful and with horrible gameplay :)
19:38 < aiju> look at nethack
19:38 < Namegduf> It's the Hollywood syndrome
19:38 < nsf> screenshots and trailers that's what people buy
19:38 < Namegduf> Too much money involved, too much management, too many
morons buying whatever looks pretty
19:38 -!- DerHorst [~Horst@e176101095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit:
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19:38 < nsf> welcome to Earth, lol
19:38 < Namegduf> Leading to incredibly conservatism in terms of innovation
and huge amounts of money on pretty
19:39 < Namegduf> *incredible
19:39 < nsf> ya
19:39 < aiju> and copy protection and all that HORRIBLE CRAP
19:40 < nsf> sad stuff
19:40 < nsf> :)
19:41 < aiju> i have to break the law to play a game i legally acquired
19:41 < nsf> hahaha
19:42 < aiju> but then again, most of such games suck so much, that reading
books, programming Go and scrubbing toilets is a better idea
19:42 < nsf> :D
19:42 < nsf> good picture
19:42 < nsf> like a life of a very strongly opinioned programmer :)
19:43 < aiju> hahaha
19:43 < Archwyrm> There's a couple Minecraft server implementations written
in Go.
19:43 < Archwyrm> I find this one particularly interesting
https://github.com/huin/chunkymonkey
19:44 < nsf> I've seen it long time ago
19:44 < nsf> is it alive?
19:44 < Archwyrm> More or less.
19:44 < Archwyrm> Last commit on the 10th.
19:44 < nsf> i see
19:44 < Archwyrm> Work seems to come in bursts.
19:45 < nsf> I'll check it out someda
19:45 < nsf> someday*
19:45 < Archwyrm> That one is a fork of the original which is maybe what you
saw though and has gone on its own merry way.
19:45 < Namegduf> There's a bunch of alternative implementations.
19:46 < Namegduf> Even the Java ones perform better than the official.
19:46 < Namegduf> I respect Notch as a creative ideas guy, but jeeze.
19:47 < nsf> yeah, indie games like that is the last hope we have
19:47 < nsf> even if they suck :)
19:47 < nsf> technically
19:47 < Archwyrm> I don't know, everything that has been added so far seems
to have been upon a whim (which is perhaps not a bad thing).
19:47 < aiju> blah "indie"
19:47 < Namegduf> Well, I have more games than I can play.
19:47 < Namegduf> I go back to DOS stuff on occasion.
19:47 < Archwyrm> Same.
19:47 < Namegduf> The game industry is welcome to go die
19:47 < Namegduf> I have enough available to cover my remaining lifespan.
19:47 < nsf> I don't like minecraft's GUI stagnation
19:48 < aiju> i play Touhou and it's more likely that i take over the world
than that i ever beat THAT game
19:48 < Namegduf> It took me over a hundred games of NetHack to ascend.
19:48 < Archwyrm> aiju: GUI stagnation?
19:48 < aiju> s/aiju/nsf
19:48 < Archwyrm> Oh, sorry.  :x
19:48 < aiju> Namegduf: i never ascended :(
19:49 < Namegduf> aiju: :(
19:49 < aiju> Namegduf: i once got into the lowest level ..  and the wizard
defeated me there
19:49 < Namegduf> Ouch.
19:49 < nsf> for example it would be nice to have an ability to move things
quickly from inventory to the chest
19:49 < aiju> that pissed me off so much that i didn't play for months
19:49 < nsf> and back
19:49 < nsf> and it's such an easy thing to add
19:49 < Archwyrm> Neither have I, my characters just die in different and
random ways, but it is still entertaining.  I play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup mostly
though.
19:50 < Archwyrm> s/random/interesting/
19:50 < aiju> You fall in a pit.
19:50 < aiju> The pit is spiked.
19:50 < aiju> The spikes are poisoned.
19:50 < aiju> You die.
19:50 < Archwyrm> :)
19:51 < Archwyrm> Dwarf Fortress is quite interesting in that it is also
eschews graphics for gameplay.
19:51 < Archwyrm> I've never had enough free time to get seriously into it
though.
19:51 < aiju> i find dwarf fortress interesting, but it also gets boring
19:51 < str1ngs> how do you guys handle long err chains like this
https://gist.github.com/887526
19:52 < str1ngs> ie can avoid doing if err != nil after every err return
19:52 < nsf> it depends
19:52 < nsf> if it's ok to os.Exit
19:52 < nsf> just write a function
19:53 < aiju> str1ngs: why are you checking for error after defer?
19:53 < nsf> func checkIfError(err os.Error)
19:53 < str1ngs> aiju: I just moved defer up
19:53 < nsf> if it's not to os.Exit
19:53 < nsf> then panic
19:53 < nsf> str1ngs: https://github.com/nsf/bin2go
19:53 < nsf> see how I do it here
19:54 < Archwyrm> str1ngs: I do as nsf suggests.
19:54 < nsf> I use a func "checkOutputFailure"
19:54 < str1ngs> ok but if I want to recover then use panic with a defer
recover?
19:54 < nsf> yeah
19:55 < nsf> I don't see other way of doing that
19:55 < str1ngs> kk but still say use the checkError func
19:55 < nsf> but manual if err != nil isn't that bad
19:55 < aiju> try to keep the failing parts small
19:55 < aiju> which is good practice anyway
19:55 < nsf> IO btw is the only thing
19:56 < nsf> that looks like that
19:56 < aiju> not quite
19:56 < str1ngs> aye but I sometimes get lazy and dont handly all err's and
I should
19:56 < aiju> strconv also fails ;P
19:56 < nsf> well, the most common thing that actually fails
19:56 < nsf> is IO
19:56 < nsf> strconv is IO
19:56 < nsf> input processing though
19:57 < str1ngs> aiju: i'm ok back to checking after defer.  doesnt return
err call defer before returning?
19:58 < aiju> str1ngs: yeah, but WHY would you do that?
19:58 < str1ngs> I dont see that it matter.  the file needs to close
19:58 < aiju> e.g., fdest should be nil if it fails
19:58 < aiju> so it segfaults
19:58 < str1ngs> ah good point
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19:59 < aiju> if err != nil, never rely on the actual function value to be
anything
19:59 < aiju> unless the doc explicitly states something else
20:00 < str1ngs> and I probably dont need to err check os.Stat.  since
os.Open pretty much the same thing
20:00 < aiju> yes you should
20:00 < nsf> it depends
20:00 < aiju> also, there is fstat
20:00 < nsf> if you want to be as robust as possible :)
20:00 < nsf> check everything
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20:01 < aiju> if you write something which is anything but a quick 100 lines
proof of concept hack
20:01 < Namegduf> Error checks on I/O can be skipped if the best response to
a fail, or at least an acceptable one, is to just move on and keep trying
20:01 < aiju> check the fucking err value
20:01 < Namegduf> Printing to stdout is a common case, for example
20:01 < str1ngs> aiju: fstat?
20:01 < aiju> str1ngs: os.Fstat
20:02 < Namegduf> If not, you need to observe that and consider it and
pretend to scrach your non-existent beard
20:02 < Namegduf> Unless you're a Real Programmer
20:02 < str1ngs> wait I can use fsrc.Stat should give me a FileInfo
20:02 < Namegduf> In that case scratch your real one
20:02 < aiju> oh wait
20:02 < Namegduf> And decide what to do with your error handling.
20:02 < aiju> it's called File.Stat
20:02 < aiju> not Fstat, sorry
20:02 < str1ngs> aye got it thanks
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20:07 < str1ngs> ok this is great thanks.  I'll just leave the err handling
chain for now.  and let w/e calls this handle it
20:13 < Namegduf> str1ngs: Public functions should never "leak" panics
20:13 < Namegduf> Aside that constraint, do whatever's convenient
20:13 < Namegduf> Just make sure you can reason with it nicely to ensure
panics are properly caught.
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20:14 < plexdev> http://is.gd/1pRifP by [Peter Mundy] in go/src/pkg/net/ --
net: fix Windows build
20:15 < str1ngs> right now its just a private function.  But I'll do more
reading on panic handling
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20:22 < str1ngs> I wont show you my sed function lol
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20:30 < dfr|work> is there an extension commonly use to designate that a
file is a go template?
20:31 < plexdev> http://is.gd/j8XYaj by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/test/fixedbugs/ -- test: match gccgo error messages for bug016.go.
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20:39 < kamaji> javascript closures
20:39 < kamaji> wat.
20:40 < kamaji> Can we have go in the browser pls
20:43 < aiju> javascript closures are quite similar to Go closures o.O
20:44 < kamaji> You have to wrap them in js
20:46 < kamaji> which is
20:46 < kamaji> weird
20:47 < aiju> what?
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20:47 < aiju> function (x) { return x + 1; }
20:48 < kamaji> It's in a for loop
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#go-nuts
20:48 < kamaji> actually I don't know how that looks in go?  maybe it's the
same then :\
20:48 < kamaji> no you'd just do function variables I guess
20:50 < ww> js closures w/ global scope vars.  mess
20:51 < aiju> most of js is a mess anyway
20:51 < aiju> you can redefine undefined!
20:51 < kamaji> are you kidding?!
20:51 < kamaji> that's hilarious
20:51 < aiju> yeah
20:52 < kamaji> hahaha
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21:24 < ww> iant: is gold relevant on arm?
21:25 < ww> some old writings about it suggest only x86, and cannot easily
find anything more recent written about it
21:25 * ww crosses fingers waiting for this build of gcc to complete yielding a
working cross-gccgo
21:28 < aiju> "some old writings"
21:28 < aiju> cave paintings?
21:29 < ww> http://lwn.net/Articles/274859/
21:30 < ww> three years ago almost to the day
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21:34 < str1ngs> I think gold is relevant on arm/linux just not for none elf
stuff
21:34 < str1ngs> ie mac I guess?
21:35 < edsrzf> Yeah, I think it's only for ELF binaries.
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21:36 < aiju> i thought gold was a metal
21:39 < aiju> oh some funny linker iant wrote
21:40 < str1ngs> ww: On x86 GNU/Linux systems the gccgo compiler is able to
use a small discontiguous stack for goroutines.  this might suggest no though
21:41 < str1ngs> ww: so you might not be able to use gold.  but all you will
miss is the extra goroutines
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21:45 < ww> argh
21:45 < ww> checking for shl_load...  configure: error: Link tests are not
allowed after GCC_NO_EXECUTABLES.
21:46 < str1ngs> I assume you are using --target ?
21:46 < ww> yes
21:47 < str1ngs> and you used --target with binutils?
21:47 < ww> ...  try building without c++ support
21:48 < str1ngs> you need c++ for gccgo
21:48 < ww> ....  yes, --target=arm-android-eabi
21:48 < str1ngs> since its written in c++ :P
21:48 < ww> right but *maybe* c++ to build gccgo but not c++ to use it
21:48 < str1ngs> aye
21:49 < ww> so i don't need arm-android-eabi-g++
21:49 < ww> or actually, libstdc++ which is where the problem happens
21:49 < aiju> what the fuck is wrong with 5g?
21:49 < aiju> oh wait, this was a cgo issue, wasn't it?
21:49 < ww> aiju: we've been through this before.  cgo
21:49 < str1ngs> 5g cant make calls to C
21:49 < ww> yes
21:49 < aiju> blargh
21:50 < str1ngs> ww: are you putting all this on your blog?
21:50 < ww> yes, i'm rewriting it as i figure out what works...
21:50 < str1ngs> great thank you
21:51 < str1ngs> I cant mess with it now.  but later hopefully I can ..  I
need hardware :(
21:51 < aiju> you'll be faster fixing 5g than getting fucking autotools to
corss compile
21:51 < aiju> *cross
21:51 <+iant> ww: gold works for ARM
21:52 <+iant> the Android developers are using it
21:53 < ww> iant: thanks.  i enabled it in the build, just wasn't sure it
would get used
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21:57 < ww> iant: i wish the android developers would document the process
they use to build the ndk better
21:58 <+iant> I've never tried it myself
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22:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/8L0hj1 by [Rob Pike] in 8 subdirs of go/src/
-- testing: set up structure for faster testing using the new -test.short flag.
22:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/tcfrtT by [Dave Cheney] in go/src/ -- build:
handle broken awk in version.bash
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22:36 < plexdev> http://is.gd/fWbz2z by [Ian Lance Taylor] in
go/test/fixedbugs/ -- test: match gccgo error messages for bug081.go.
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23:11 < dfr|work> mhmm...  so do regex do multiline matches?  =/
23:11 < aiju> structured regex!
23:12 < dfr|work> aiju, mhmm?
23:12 < aiju> just suggesting random Plan 9 things
23:12 < dfr|work> =/
23:13 < dfr|work> yea, seems like the go regexp package is really really
simplistic, hehe
23:13 < dfr|work> :)
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23:30 < skelterjohn> why wouldn't regex do multiline matches?
23:30 < skelterjohn> \n is just another character in a string
23:31 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, well, in perl regexes, you sometimes need to
specify an option to do multiline match (m, i think...)
23:32 < skelterjohn> does perl do matches off a stream?
23:32 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, huh?
23:32 < skelterjohn> i don't know perl, trying to understand why it might
treat newlines as special
23:33 < skelterjohn> and if you use newlines to separate bits of data on a
stream that would make sense
23:33 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, i don't do perl much either.  The reason I
mentioned is because Perl derived regex tend to be the ones you see everywhere, i
think
23:34 < dfr|work> skelterjohn, you do have a point though.  I dunno, it's
just one thing I'm usually finicky with regex-ed -- if it doesn't work and I have
a multiple line string I'm trying to match, gotta make sure it actually tries to
match the whole string :)
23:38 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ZC0PFs by [Rob Pike] in 9 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- testing: shorten some tests.
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23:47 < dfr|work> ack.
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23:52 < dfr|work> apparently there're different kinds of nils =/
23:53 < dfr|work> or at least they're displayed differently with %s when
doing printf =/
23:55 < edsrzf> Yeah, there are different types of nils.  It can be
confusing.
23:58 < dfr|work> when I do var bar interface{}; bar = foo where foo is not
a pointer, does bar become a pointer and that's why it's not nil anymore?
23:59 < dfr|work> basically: http://pastie.org/1715990
23:59 < dfr|work> it says that bar is not nil =/
23:59 < dfr|work> and I'm majorly confused as to why....
23:59 < skelterjohn> bar is an interface that contains a pointer that
happens to be nil
--- Log closed Sat Mar 26 00:00:08 2011