--- Log opened Mon Apr 18 00:00:50 2011
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01:54 < crazy2be> how do you get git to ignore go binaries in the source
tree?
01:55 < crazy2be> i could ignore each one explicitly
01:55 < crazy2be> but that seems hackish
02:00 < delinka> don't add binary files :-/
02:07 < Rakko> yeah, I guess you're supposed to only git add files one by
one
02:07 < Rakko> not whole directories
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02:08 < crazy2be> that's a pain
02:08 < crazy2be> and then the binaries sit around in the "Untracked files"
section of git status
02:08 < crazy2be> when i will never want to commit them
02:11 < Rakko> you can put their names in .gitignore
02:11 < crazy2be> yeah, one-by-one :/
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02:12 < crazy2be> is there some clever .gitignore pattern to ignore them?
02:13 < delinka> add a 'clean' rule that removes those binaries before
adding whole directories
02:13 < crazy2be> they are all in src/<name>/<name>
02:13 < delinka> make clean; git add ...
02:13 < delinka> well, included Go makefiles already have clean :)
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02:27 < dfc> can the .gitinclude source other files ?
02:28 < dfc> source Makefile and exlcude $(TARG)
02:28 < dfc> but this should only be necessary for Make.cmd right ?
02:28 < |Craig|> I just have things like *.6 in my .gitignore
02:29 < dfc> take a look at $GOROOT/.hgignore
02:29 < dfc> that is a pretty complete set
02:45 < crazy2be> ah
02:46 < crazy2be> it solves it with a regex
02:46 < crazy2be> wonder if git supports regexes
02:48 < Rakko> does go not support shared libraries yet?
02:48 < dfc> depends what you mean
02:50 < dfc> the final executables produced by go a mostly (cgo permitted)
statically linked
02:50 < dfc> but each package is essentially a shared library that is fixed
up at linker time, rather than runtime
02:50 < dfc> at least, that is how I look at it
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02:51 < crazy2be> hmm i guess i could ignore src/, then !src/*/*.go,
!src/*/Makefile
02:52 < Rakko> I would think shared would mean runtime linking
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02:56 < crazy2be> what is the usage difference between a linked list and a
[]*SomeObj
02:56 < crazy2be> like, where would each one have advantages?
02:57 < crazy2be> it seems like the expense in []*SomeObj with lots of
objects would still be relatively small
02:58 < |Craig|> crazy2be: if you want to access the 10 item, in a linked
list, it takes 10 step
02:58 < |Craig|> linked lists have linear access time compared to their
size, slices have constant access time
02:58 < |Craig|> and slices take less memory
02:59 < |Craig|> but inserts require moving items, and so does removing,
which is not the case with linked lists
03:01 < crazy2be> |Craig|: Well, how performance-intensive is that if it is
an array/slice of pointers?
03:02 < |Craig|> it does not mater if the array is pointers, or ints, of
floats, of structs, except that structs might be a little bigger
03:02 < |Craig|> theres nothing special about a slice of pointers.  Its just
a slice, that happens to contain pointers
03:04 < crazy2be> well, nothing special except that points are smaller, and
thus (i am assuming), they are faster to move or copy
03:04 < crazy2be> smaller than sctructs that is
03:05 < crazy2be> *pointers
03:05 < crazy2be> *structs
03:05 < |Craig|> structs can be the same size, and maybe even smaller
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03:05 < crazy2be> well, can be
03:05 < crazy2be> but are usually larger
03:06 < |Craig|> any changes to performance are simply constants, where
moving to a linked list changes the behaviour drastically
03:06 < crazy2be> on 32-bit systems, pointrs are 4 bytes i belive
03:06 < |Craig|> can you have empty structs of 0 size?
03:07 < crazy2be> hmm not sure, but you can have structs of 1 byte
03:07 < |Craig|> but they will get aligned to 32 bit spacing prabably
03:08 < crazy2be> does that happen with bytes too?
03:08 < crazy2be> or just if you have a struct with only a byte?
03:09 < crazy2be> e.g.  would a var blar int take up the same amount of
memory as a var blar byte?
03:09 < |Craig|> I don't know.  All I know is that fetching unaligned values
can be slow depending on your instruction set architecture.
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03:13 < skelterjohn> i'd guess that a clever compiler would turn a struct{}
into no data at all
03:13 < skelterjohn> and things like sending/receiving for chan struct{}
would be a data-free communication
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03:15 < crazy2be> or a compiler error
03:15 < crazy2be> since there is no use to such a construct
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03:15 < skelterjohn> sure there is
03:15 < skelterjohn> exactly the use i mentioned
03:16 < crazy2be> unless you want to send something on a channel but don't
care what
03:16 < skelterjohn> doneChans for instance
03:16 < crazy2be> but that's not data-free
03:16 < skelterjohn> but it can be payload-free
03:16 < crazy2be> since you still have data about the messages themselves
03:16 < skelterjohn> and struct{} is a completely valid type right now
03:17 < skelterjohn> i used to make "chan bool"s for waiting on goroutines
03:17 < skelterjohn> now i make "chan struct{}"s
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03:23 < crazy2be> huh
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03:24 < crazy2be> it would be interesting if you could have a chan nil
03:25 < crazy2be> although nil is a value, not a type
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03:27 < crazy2be> anyway night
03:28 < skelterjohn> night
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06:14 < JusticeFries> is there an established HTML parser for Go yet?
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06:24 < vsmatck> JusticeFries: search go packages.
06:24 < JusticeFries> perfect thanks.  :)
06:26 < uriel> JusticeFries: http://golang.org/pkg/html/
06:26 < JusticeFries> ah nice.
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06:41 < taruti> Can one add formatting to the godoc comments?  If so how?
06:42 < dfc> like javadoc comments ?
06:44 < taruti> yes
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06:46 < dfc> yes, you can use html
06:46 < dfc> there are some conventions
06:47 < dfc> hmm, actaully not html
06:47 < dfc> it looks more like markdown
06:47 < dfc> http://code.google.com/p/go/source/browse/src/pkg/gob/doc.go
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07:03 < taruti> nsf: can gortfm be coerced to produce something like markup
(would be handy for bitbucket wiki pages) ?
07:03 < nsf> I don't think it's that flexible
07:04 < nsf> but it's not that big though
07:04 < nsf> you can change tweak it as much as you want
07:04 < nsf> :)
07:04 < nsf> s/change//
07:05 < taruti> or is there some site running a community godoc?
07:06 < taruti> just want to point my bitbucket repos to api
documentation...
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08:41 < plexdev> http://is.gd/B7cTbr by [Nigel Tao] in go/ -- CONTRIBUTORS:
Raph Levien (Google CLA)
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11:31 < hopso> Oh my god.  Earlier today one programmer I know started
babbling around about Google taking over the world like a madman when I mentioned
Go. :D
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11:32 < virtualsue> ha
11:33 < hopso> I probably wont talk about Go with him again.
11:34 < exch> oh but you should.  Just to annoy him
11:35 < hopso> He probably annoys himself enough already.  :D
11:35 < xyproto> hopso: perhaps it's based on the same misunderstanding as
the legal system in the US: that a company is a person
11:35 < aiju> google world domination?
11:35 < Namegduf> I prefer to call it "world optimisation".
11:36 < aiju> i for one welcome our new overlords
11:36 < xyproto> don't forget the sock gnomes, welcome them too
11:36 < xyproto> (the ones that steals single socks from the washing
machine)
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11:37 < hopso> Namegduf: I like that.
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12:02 < exch> "closure needs too many variables; runtime will reject it." mm
What is the limit for that?
12:03 < dfc> exch: ohh, that is an interesting error
12:03 < dfc> got some sample code ?
12:04 < exch> nothing I can easily extract that will make sense without
context
12:04 < exch> it's just a closure defined inside a function.  it referenced
quite a lot of variables from the uoter function
12:04 < exch> 13 of em to be exact
12:05 < dfc> ok, lemmie see if I can knock something up
12:07 < exch> It seems 12 is the limit
12:08 < exch> http://pastie.org/1806817 here's a simple example
12:08 < dfc> http://pastie.org/1806819
12:08 < dfc> snap
12:08 < hopso> Is it good idea to base Packet type on bytes.Buffer or should
I just have bytes.Buffer field in the Packet type?
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13:10 < sebastia1> eexCeiC
13:10 < sebastia1> exit
13:10 < sebastia1> exit
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15:05 < nsf> http://ompldr.org/vOGJtMA/2011-04-18-210654_748x466_scrot.png
15:05 < nsf> :P
15:06 < nsf> does anyone know if it's possible to implement that kind of
thing in a single pass?: a graph with two types of nodes, I need to find all the
loops and to know if each loop contains only nodes of a single type
15:07 < nsf> currently I use stack for backtracing
15:09 < fzzbt> .crl?
15:09 < nsf> crawl :)
15:10 < nsf> well, I also did an interesting thing, looks like Go checks for
initialization loops only when deals with variable initializers
15:10 < nsf> I did it just everywhere :\
15:10 < nsf> hm..
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15:11 < exch> recursive compilation..  I'm having a similar problem in my
script compiler
15:12 < skelterjohn> you can find cycles in one pass
15:12 < nsf> cycles yes
15:12 < nsf> it's easy
15:12 < skelterjohn> right
15:12 < nsf> but the tricky part is:
15:12 < nsf> cycles where only functions in a loop are ok
15:12 < skelterjohn> i don't think seeing if the cycles are uniform of type
is easy (read: tractable)
15:12 < nsf> cycles where at least one variable in a loop are not ok
15:13 < skelterjohn> oh if it's only one type that you watch out for
15:13 < skelterjohn> then that's easy
15:13 < skelterjohn> you just stop your cycle detector if it sees a var
15:13 < skelterjohn> or anything other than a func
15:13 < nsf> but the tricky part (again), I don't have a separate cycle
detector :)
15:13 < nsf> I just do that all in a type checking phase
15:13 < nsf> :D
15:14 < skelterjohn> here's an idea
15:14 < skelterjohn> for each node you have, keep track of the number of
non-function parents
15:14 < skelterjohn> then if you complete a cycle when connecting two nodes
with the same number of non-fucntion parents, it must be a function-only cycle
15:15 < skelterjohn> otherwise the last node and the first node would have a
different number
15:15 < nsf> skelterjohn: I think using stack and backtracing is a better
solution
15:15 < nsf> because it also gives error messages like that
15:15 < skelterjohn> you asked for a single pass alg *shrug*
15:15 < nsf> ah, well, yes :)
15:15 < nsf> thanks :D
15:15 < skelterjohn> my pleasure
15:16 < xyproto> I have a program that creates an array of values that I
wish to see as an image.  What's the easiest way to see the result?  Save as png?
Save as raw?
15:16 < nsf> I did it all in a type checking phase, because it's ugly to
have two variants of cycle detector
15:16 < nsf> e.g.  you can't avoid simple cycle detector in a type checker
15:16 < skelterjohn> xyproto: save as something :)
15:16 < nsf> like: var a = b; var b = a;
15:17 < nsf> and then you have a complex cycle detector :)
15:17 < nsf> I did it using one cycle detector
15:17 < nsf> complicated a bit
15:17 < nsf> the only problem here
15:18 < xyproto> skelterjohn: found a png example, problem solved :)
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/4f132bffada0c9db
15:18 < nsf> is that cycle doesn't have a beginning or an end
15:18 < nsf> ah..  whatever, problem solved
15:19 < nsf> xyproto: use gnuplot or something
15:19 < nsf> export the data as CSV
15:20 < xyproto> nsf: csv is a good suggestion as well.  However, the png
package seems pretty simple and handy.
15:20 < skelterjohn> </3 gnuplot
15:21 < xyproto> skelterjohn: heart broken smiley?
15:21 < skelterjohn> yes
15:21 < xyproto> skelterjohn: had a bad relationship with gnuplot?
15:21 < skelterjohn> no, i just never learned how to use it
15:21 < skelterjohn> and it seems weird and complicated
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15:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/YnS1Ba by [Quan Yong Zhai] in go/src/pkg/net/
-- net: fix dialgoogle_test.go
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15:27 < xyproto> woo, working png-creating program :)
http://go.pastie.org/1807489
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15:50 < nsf> omg
15:51 < nsf> clang++ has just compiled this:
15:51 < nsf> func_sdecl_t *fsd = static_cast<func_sdecl_t*>(fsd);
15:51 < nsf> how is that possible?  :)
15:51 < aiju> what does it even do?
15:51 < nsf> no 'fsd's in outer scopes
15:51 < aiju> haha
15:51 < nsf> aiju: I'm interested in that too
15:52 < nsf> let's see what gcc thinks
15:52 < aiju> g++ pukes all over your face
15:52 < nsf> ‘fsd’ may be used uninitialized in this function
15:52 < nsf> at least it says something!
15:53 < nsf> but I really don't understand that
15:54 < nsf> I thought that's what static typing for
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15:54 < nsf> for catching my mistakes
15:54 < nsf> :\
15:55 < aiju> there is no news in C++ being completely fucked up
15:56 < nsf> btw, I use -Wall
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15:58 < nsf> http://ompldr.org/vOGJtbg/2011-04-18-220330_644x340_scrot.png
15:58 < nsf> I mean seriously
15:58 < nsf> wtf is that
15:58 < nsf> I didn't know it's valid
15:58 < nsf> :)
15:58 < nsf> no warning with -Wall
15:58 < aiju> gcc allows it, too
15:58 < nsf> yeah, but gcc at least tells about uninitalized value
15:58 < aiju> not here
15:58 < nsf> hehe
15:58 < nsf> -Wall?
15:58 < aiju> aiju@toshiba ~/tmp $ gcc test.c -Wall -ansi -pedantic
15:59 < nsf> interesting
15:59 < aiju> no warnings, no errors
15:59 < xyproto> abc it's what it is, and that number is -1215468656, just
like the meaning of life is 42
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15:59 < aiju> hahaha
15:59 < fzzbt> what the heck?  int abc = abc;
15:59 < nsf> xyproto: :D
15:59 < nsf> fzzbt: exactly
15:59 < aiju> but it's -1216110604
15:59 < aiju> here!
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15:59 < xyproto> aiju: it's just a glitch in the, uhm, matrix
15:59 < aiju> wow what the fuck
15:59 < aiju> even kencc allows it
15:59 < xyproto> aiju: every time you get a deja vu, the magical number
changes
16:00 < xyproto> :P
16:00 < xyproto> (it's really strange, I agree)
16:00 < aiju> of course, Go doesn't allow ir
16:00 < aiju> *it
16:00 < aiju> this is the weirdest C feature ever
16:01 < aiju> even more weird than trigraphs and 4[array]
16:01 < nsf> as well as crawl
16:01 < nsf> haha
16:01 < aiju> i really get a different number every time i run it
16:01 < aiju> now that's strange
16:02 < aiju> must be some new Linux feature
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16:03 < xyproto> "look what I can do!" :P A gif animation, made only with Go
(and converted from a series of .png to .gif)
http://roboticoverlords.org/images/board.gif
16:03 < nsf> aiju: k3wl linux security stuff has features like that
16:03 < nsf> e.g.  shuffling stuff in memory in order to minimize
controllable buffer overflow exploits
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16:04 < aiju> oh yeah
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16:04 < aiju> security risk randomization
16:04 < nsf> but I don't think it's enabled by default
16:04 < nsf> but well, depends on distro
16:04 < nsf> etc.
16:04 < aiju> i don't know why anyone would EVER believe that address space
randomization helps in any way
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16:05 < aiju> because syscalls are not fucking randomized
16:05 < nsf> :)
16:05 < aiju> and PIC is not a myth
16:05 < taruti> stupid lack of generics :(
16:05 < aiju> i should implement syscall randomization, now that's
something!
16:05 < nsf> I'm not a big fan of security
16:06 < aiju> i'm not a big fan of placebos
16:06 < nsf> the weakest element of the security is human being anyway
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16:07 < nsf> that's what we call thermorectal brute force method here in
russia
16:07 < nsf> :D
16:07 < aiju> if hackers were a bit more social there wouldn't be any
exploits, because it's always easier to fuck with humans
16:07 < aiju> you don't even need a soldering iron
16:07 < nsf> haha
16:07 < aiju> if you fake the right shit, people will give you everything
you want
16:07 < aiju> i mean, fucking phishing works
16:08 < nsf> it does
16:08 < mpl> how do you fuck phishing?
16:08 < aiju> hhaha
16:08 < taruti> any ideas how to type: func (p *Parser) NPrefixed(int n,
func (*Parser)(*<T>)*Parser, *[<T>]), without generics?
16:09 < nsf> omg
16:09 < nsf> taruti: trying to think in terms of generics without having
them is a bad idea
16:10 < nsf> I mean rethinking what you're trying to do is a way to go
16:10 < taruti> my thinking is mostly in Haskell :D
16:10 < nsf> maybe if you really want code generation, writing a code
generator would work
16:10 < exch> there's your mistake, right there :p
16:10 < aiju> then you're fucked
16:11 < taruti> but any ideas using interface{} while avoiding reflection?
16:11 < nsf> uhm, you can't avoid reflection using interface
16:11 < nsf> it uses reflection :)
16:12 < nsf> any interface
16:12 < taruti> nsf: not the reflect package which eats all memory and
changes interface every second week.
16:12 < nsf> :D
16:12 < aiju> haha
16:12 < aiju> you mispelled "day"
16:12 < nsf> haha
16:13 < aiju> but hey you can always have gofix fuck up your code!
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16:17 < kimelto> no need for gofix, I can do that myself ;p
16:19 < nsf> no, gofix is magic
16:19 < nsf> I like it
16:19 < nsf> it fixed gocode
16:19 < nsf> after 'reflect' package update
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17:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/U1CN4B by [Rob Pike] in go/test/bench/ --
test/bench: update timings; moving to new machine.
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17:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/9JN0U2 by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ --
gc: fix complex move again
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18:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/UBdgh1 by [Rob Pike] in 2 subdirs of go/doc/
-- tutorial: modernize the definition and use of Open.
18:04 < plexdev> http://is.gd/CwlQXj by [Brad Fitzpatrick] in
go/src/pkg/mime/ -- mime: RFC 2231 continuation / non-ASCII support
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18:08 < exch> wahey.  recursion problem in compiler solved \o/
18:08 < exch> I deserve a cookie for this
18:09 < uriel> exch: congrats
18:09 < exch> thanks
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18:10 < uriel> m4dh4tt3r: hey, you around?
18:10 < exch> "def foo ( -- ) [ [ foo ] ]" That bit of code caused me
significant amounts of headache.  And as usual, the fix was shamefully trivial
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18:20 < skelterjohn> is that your bizarre stack-based language?
18:21 < exch> yes
18:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/zvVSWs by [Brad Fitzpatrick] in
go/src/pkg/mime/ -- mime: add a TODO, fix the format of an error
18:21 < exch> not so bizar really.  It's a slightly modified version of
Factor
18:21 < exch> or rather, a subset thereof at this point
18:21 < skelterjohn> that doesn't make it any less bizarre :)
18:22 < exch> hehe I suppose it's an acquired taste
18:22 < exch> I love it
18:23 < skelterjohn> i don't mean this in an offensive way, but what use is
this sort of language?
18:23 < skelterjohn> what kind of tasks does it make easier, or more
efficient, or better in some way?
18:24 < exch> it's a fair question.  Like functional languages, it is very
suitable for manipulation of large data structures
18:25 < exch> but as opposed to functional langs, it lacks (the (annoying
(scoping (requirement))))
18:26 < skelterjohn> not all functional languages are LISP variants
18:26 < m4dh4tt3r> uriel: what's up?
18:27 < exch> { "#fff" "123" "321" } [ "#" head?  not ] filter [
string>int ] map 0 [ + ] reduce println
18:27 < exch> to me, that is just beautiful :)
18:28 < skelterjohn> :\
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seconds]
18:29 < skelterjohn> i don't like it when code is more of a puzzle than a
set of instructions
18:29 < exch> It always is if you don't understand the language it's written
in
18:30 < exch> The added trick here is that it's a very different way to
write code than imperative languages.  You need a different way of thinking
18:30 < exch> There's nothing puzzly about that code for me really
18:30 < skelterjohn> the reason imperative languages are the most popular is
(i believe) because they model human thought most closely
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18:31 < skelterjohn> you do this, then you do this, then you do this
18:31 < aiju> exch: is that factor?
18:31 < exch> that's how you should read that code
18:31 < exch> aiju: http://factorcode.org
18:31 < aiju> yeah, i know factor
18:32 < aiju> (know as in "i've heard of it")
18:32 < exch> aiju: ah.  yes it's a script lang I'm implementing in Go. It's
a slightly modified subset of Factor
18:32 < aiju> ah ic
18:32 < aiju> `0:,/"
",',/"\n",'$,/({x,'}'X)@'{[x]300_{[y]x*y*1-y}\[400;0.5]}'X
18:32 < exch> skelterjohn: a concatenative language like factor has no
operator precedence for instance.  Everything that happens, happens exactly in the
order the code is written in
18:32 < aiju> *that* is just beautiful
18:33 < exch> hehe that reminds me of perl :p
18:33 < skelterjohn> it's probably K
18:34 < skelterjohn> the language created with conciseness as the only goal
18:34 < skelterjohn> proof that just because a thing isn't good doesn't mean
that it's good in the extreme
18:35 < aiju> http://aiju.de/code/k/tictactoe
18:35 < KirkMcDonald> I always liked RPN calculators.
18:36 < skelterjohn> i wonder if i should raise my kids to think of math in
postfix notation
18:36 < skelterjohn> (no kids, as yet)
18:36 < exch> better work on that first then :p
18:37 < skelterjohn> wife says i need a job first
18:37 < skelterjohn> heh
18:37 < skelterjohn> blah blah blah
18:37 < aiju> just poke holes in condoms
18:37 < exch> hehe
18:37 -!- zozoR [~Morten@56344480.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246
seconds]
18:37 < exch> at least you have a wife.  that's always a good start :p
18:37 < skelterjohn> if i did that we'd be limited to one child, because
she'd cut offsomething important
18:38 < aiju> skelterjohn: her arteries?
18:38 < skelterjohn> something of mine
18:38 < plexdev> http://is.gd/EulKmS by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- reflect: more efficient; cannot Set result of NewValue anymore
18:38 < aiju> your arteries?  ;P
18:38 < plexdev> http://is.gd/mEdK8s by [Russ Cox] in 8 subdirs of go/src/
-- changes for more restricted reflect.SetValue
18:38 < skelterjohn> probably not my arteries
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18:54 < bortzmeyer> If I have an array of chan, is there a way to select on
all without writing one case per array element?
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18:55 <+iant> bortzmeyer: no
18:56 < huin> short of making a goroutine per element then feeding to a
single channel...
18:56 < huin> which may or may not be decadent :)
18:56 < bortzmeyer> iant: my solution, until now, was to preprocess the
source to produce automatically one case per element (so I can parametrize the
size of the array)
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19:04 < exch> Can the go compiler generate a listing of
constants/functions/etc which are never called/used?
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19:08 < skelterjohn> it would be easy to do that with source analysis
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seconds]
19:08 < skelterjohn> i don't know if anything in the compiler toolkit will
do that for you
19:08 < exch> it already does that for vars
19:08 < exch> not global ones though
19:08 < skelterjohn> not globals
19:08 < skelterjohn> right
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19:09 < skelterjohn> because they could be used by other packages
19:09 < aiju> you can simply write an awk script orsomething ;P
19:09 < huin> complicated :(
19:09 < skelterjohn> aiju: can awk do Go type analysis?  =p
19:09 < huin> i'd probably use the AST
19:09 < aiju> depending on how consistent your style is
19:09 < exch> I roll with gofmt
19:09 < aiju> skelterjohn: i find C functions with '^func' because i always
have the names at a beginning of a line
19:10 < skelterjohn> if you use rog-go.googlecode.com/hg/exp/go/types with
AST this is very easy
19:10 < skelterjohn> aiju: not sure about relevance
19:10 < aiju> well, finding variables
19:11 < aiju> global variables start with var
19:11 < skelterjohn> i interpreted exch's question as seeing if a particular
function is ever called in the source set
19:11 < KirkMcDonald> I used to format my Go code like that, before they
made the semicolons optional and mandated certain formatting choices.
19:11 < exch> skelterjohn: yes that's what I intended.  Also for constants
ever being used
19:11 < exch> it's only useful for package-local stuff though
19:11 < skelterjohn> right - easy to do with wrtp's type package and go/ast
19:11 < skelterjohn> no - you can do it for the whole source tree :)
19:11 < KirkMcDonald> func Foo\n(arg, arg, arg T)\n(R1, R2)
19:11 < huin> [tangent] one thing that i've wondered about Go style is how
to avoid long lines in function definition line
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19:12 < KirkMcDonald> At least, when the function parameter list was
particularly long, I'd do that.
19:12 < KirkMcDonald> Most of the time I left it on a single line.
19:12 < huin> does gofmt change that?
19:12 < KirkMcDonald> I forget.
19:12 < skelterjohn> if you do that, go will insert semicolons after func
Foo\n
19:13 < KirkMcDonald> Right.
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19:13 < KirkMcDonald> I had to stop when they made the big semicolon change.
19:14 < skelterjohn> i think you could do func Foo (\n param1, \n param2, \n
) etc
19:14 < exch> does this work?: func foo(\narg1, arg2) (\nret1, ret2)
19:14 < skelterjohn> :)
19:15 < skelterjohn> yeah that works fine (just tested)
19:15 < huin> how ugly is it?  :)
19:16 < skelterjohn> it could look better
19:16 < huin> and does gofmt fudge about with it?
19:16 < skelterjohn> i'm sure gofmt would leave it alone
19:16 < skelterjohn> gofmt doesn't merge lines
19:16 < huin> dunno, i've seen it meddle with things like that
19:16 < huin> or remove indent or something
19:16 < huin> i forget
19:16 < KirkMcDonald> I forget, does Go have line continuations?
19:16 < aiju> yeah
19:17 < skelterjohn> what's a line continuation?
19:17 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: backslash-newline
19:17 < aiju> just end the line with the right thing ;P
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19:17 < skelterjohn> like a \?
19:17 < skelterjohn> so, no arbitrary line continuations
19:17 < skelterjohn> just have to end the line with something that isn't an
ident i think
19:18 < exch> gofmt removes the newlines in foo(\n arg1, arg2)
19:18 < huin> :(
19:18 < skelterjohn> oh, gofmt messes with it heavily
19:18 < skelterjohn> laaaaame
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19:19 < huin> yeah, thought that's what happened to me
19:19 < huin> so i'm stuck with long lines
19:19 < skelterjohn> http://pastebin.com/quuWsnfi
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19:20 < KirkMcDonald> I still maintain that implementing the optional
semicolons as a lexical hack may not have been the best solution.
19:20 < huin> arguably, yes
19:20 < nsf> KirkMcDonald: I think optional semicolon insertion should be
feature
19:20 < huin> i like the lack of visual noise, but it does have this nasty
sideeffect
19:21 < nsf> like: I don't want to write semicolons, compiler insert them
for me
19:21 < skelterjohn> ew no way - either it's mandatory or it doesn't exist.
can't be optional.
19:21 < nsf> but not forcing this
19:21 < KirkMcDonald> Optional semicolons are good!  That is not what I
object to.
19:21 < Namegduf> Optional: The worst of both, best of neither
19:21 < nsf> I think (especially in Go)
19:21 < Namegduf> Also they are "optional" if you don't use gofmt
19:21 < nsf> it's perfectly possible to do detection
19:21 < aiju> KirkMcDonald: i think adding newline to the grammar is insane
19:21 < nsf> whether user wants autosemis or not
19:21 < KirkMcDonald> It would be considerably more complicated to implement
them in the grammar, I agree.
19:21 < Namegduf> No more or less than any other stylistic constraint.
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19:22 < nsf> and frankly
19:22 < nsf> in last few weeks I've written like 6-7k lines of C++ code
19:22 < nsf> I don't even notice semicolons anymore
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19:22 < nsf> :)
19:22 < aiju> now you start spewing classes
19:22 < KirkMcDonald> I do like Python's rules with respect to separating
statements.
19:23 < aiju> i never liked python rules
19:23 < Namegduf> Well, can't have it both ways.
19:23 < KirkMcDonald> And this is leaving aside Python's use of indentation
as a block delimiter.
19:23 < skelterjohn> aiju: you think K code looks good.  sort of invalidates
anything else you could say O:-)
19:23 < Namegduf> Either you have semicolons, you have a lexer hack with
very simple rules, or you have it be part of the grammar.
19:23 < aiju> skelterjohn: haha
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19:24 < KirkMcDonald> Python essentially implements it as a lexical trick,
but one that is somewhat smarter than what Go does.
19:25 < nsf> hacks, tricks, what else
19:25 < nsf> can we simply have semicolons?  lol
19:25 < KirkMcDonald>
http://docs.python.org/reference/lexical_analysis.html#line-structure
19:25 < nsf> :)
19:25 < aiju> i want kitties
19:25 < KirkMcDonald> So there are "physical" lines, which are the things
literally separated by newline characters.
19:25 < aiju> is there a unicode symbol for cat?  use that one as a
statement separator
19:25 < Namegduf> KirkMcDonald: The reference to the syntax suggests it is
not lexical.
19:26 < KirkMcDonald> Namegduf: That reference is referring to something
else.
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19:26 < KirkMcDonald> Let me explain.
19:27 < KirkMcDonald> In addition to physical lines, there are logical
lines, which consist of one or more physical lines, joined by certain rules.
19:27 < aiju> python's thing is just like Go, it seems to me
19:27 < aiju> except maybe with different rules
19:27 < aiju> and more fancy terminology
19:27 < nsf> aiju: lol, then it's different :)
19:27 < nsf> "different rules"
19:27 < Namegduf> Python's thing looks like Go's thing if you rename logical
line to "statement" and then say "but parens cause line joining" without saying
how or why.
19:27 < KirkMcDonald> The rules are different indeed.
19:27 < aiju> nsf: well, it's not something entirely different
19:27 < nsf> what else could be different?
19:28 < nsf> :D
19:28 < aiju> nsf: the underlying method
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19:28 < exch> there is no unicode kitten :< How is this possible??
19:28 < KirkMcDonald> Also, Python maintains the distinction between a
newline and a semicolon.
19:28 < KirkMcDonald> It does not insert semicolons in place of newlines.
19:28 < skelterjohn> didn't know that semicolons existed in python
19:28 < aiju> KirkMcDonald: oh, kay
19:29 < KirkMcDonald> Python, somewhat like Go, distinguishes between simple
and compound statements.
19:29 < Namegduf> That's because newlines which would generate a semicolon
instead are passed onto the parser.
19:29 < KirkMcDonald> A compound statement is a statement which has a suite
of code associated with it.
19:29 < KirkMcDonald> So, if, while, def, and so on are compound statements.
19:30 < KirkMcDonald> return, continue, assignment, and so on are simple
statements.
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19:30 < KirkMcDonald> Semicolons in Python permit you to place multiple
simple statements on a single line.
19:30 < aiju> do it like LISP
19:31 < KirkMcDonald> print 'a'; print 'b'; print 'c' # valid Python code
19:31 < aiju> problem solved
19:31 < nsf> semicolons, please
19:31 < nsf> :P
19:31 < aiju> or do it like Haskell, in which case, FUCK
19:31 < Namegduf> You mean "Do all of the above"?
19:31 < aiju> haha
19:32 < aiju> i don't want to know what Haskell does
19:32 < KirkMcDonald> You can also put the suite of a compound statement on
the same line as the initial clause, if that suite consists only of simple
statements: if foo: print 'blah'; print 'blargh' # also valid
19:32 < nsf> I bet no one ships editor with a compiler that inserts
semicolons automatically
19:32 < nsf> how about that?
19:32 < nsf> :D
19:32 < aiju> i hate people whining about syntax, but i make an exception
for Haskell ;P
19:32 < Namegduf> Haskell can be Python-like or C like
19:32 < Namegduf> Depending on the mood of the programmer
19:32 < Namegduf> You can use indentation or { }
19:32 < skelterjohn> nsf: because programmers don't like coding in WYSIWYG
environments
19:33 < aiju> nsf: i'm sure there is an editor which inserts semicolons
automatically
19:33 < nsf> :D
19:33 < aiju> after all, some editors insert braces
19:33 < skelterjohn> i hate that
19:33 < Namegduf> nsf: Doing anything automatically with C/C++ code is a
recipe for pain
19:33 < nsf> :D
19:33 < aiju> s/with .* code//
19:33 < KirkMcDonald> The important thing here is that, in both of these
cases, these lines are a single logical line, terminated with a NEWLINE token.
19:34 < Namegduf> Yeah, yeah.
19:34 < KirkMcDonald>
http://docs.python.org/reference/compound_stmts.html#grammar-token-suite
19:34 < Namegduf> Python works like Go, but it emits NEWLINE tokens where Go
would inject a semicolon token, and has paren counting on a single line.
19:35 < aiju> do it like javascript
19:35 < aiju> make the rules so complicated that everyone just sets
semicolons
19:35 < Namegduf> And that lets it distinguish multiple commands on the same
line from multiple commands on separate lines in the parser, surely a highly
useful feature
19:35 < KirkMcDonald> The lexer knows about brackets, and only emits NEWLINE
tokens for line breaks that appear outside of them.
19:35 < nsf> jslint complains if code has no semicolons
19:35 < nsf> even though it's perfectly valid
19:35 < Namegduf> Yes, that's what I said.
19:35 < KirkMcDonald> I like restating things.  :-)
19:35 < aiju> there should be a lint tool for life
19:35 < Namegduf> They don't say how, but it must be quite the hack.
19:35 < aiju> warning: not married to girlfriend
19:36 < nsf> :D
19:36 < aiju> warning: too much fatty food
19:36 < aiju> warning: house not tsunami safe
19:36 < nsf> would be nice to have one
19:36 < Namegduf> What, you don't know about enough problems already?
19:37 < Namegduf> Anyways, my point is that the only nicer thing Python does
that doesn't just complicate the syntax to no/little effect is that paren counting
19:37 < aiju> yeah, sounds good to me, too
19:37 < Namegduf> Emitting a NEWLINE token as opposed to semicolon injection
does basically nothing.
19:38 < Namegduf> And they don't go into how the paren counting works.
19:38 < Namegduf> Aside that it does.
19:40 < KirkMcDonald> I don't see what the difficulty with bracket counting
is.
19:40 < KirkMcDonald> See an open bracket, increment a counter.
19:40 < KirkMcDonald> Or whatever.
19:40 < KirkMcDonald> (One counter for each kind of bracket.)
19:42 < nsf> oh, I've just realized that I want to make /* */ like /+ +/ in
Go
19:42 < aiju> there is /+ +/ in Go?
19:42 < nsf> nestable
19:42 < nsf> no
19:42 < nsf> oh, sorry
19:42 < nsf> like in D
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19:44 < nsf> or I don't want that
19:44 < nsf> I don't know :)
19:44 < aiju> haha
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19:49 < aiju> D only sounds worse with every thing i hear about it
19:49 < nsf> haha, yeah, it's a pile of new concepts on your head
19:49 < nsf> but kinda looks like Cish
19:49 < nsf> :D
19:49 < nsf> just a disguise
19:49 < aiju> it's like C++, just in green
19:49 < aiju> maybe not quite THAT bad, but still insane
19:50 < nsf> no, C++ has its own unique style
19:50 < Namegduf> It's an attempt at C++ done right.
19:50 < nsf> std::unordered_map<std::string, MyClass>::iterator it;
19:50 < nsf> and that's what C++ is all about
19:50 < nsf> training fingers
19:50 < Namegduf> Every feature for everyone in every way, but less horrible
in syntax.
19:50 < aiju> Namegduf: which sounds like "holocaust done right" to my ears
19:50 < Namegduf> Haha.
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19:52 < skelterjohn> aiju: don't germans get arrested for using that word?
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19:55 < aiju> skelterjohn: ssh
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20:07 < huin> nsf: on the plus side, C++0x should cut that down a bit
20:07 < huin> not that i want to use it, even so
20:07 < aiju> C++0x cutting down what?
20:07 < aiju> sanity?
20:07 < nsf> and add more crap :)
20:07 < huin> std::unordered_map<std::string, MyClass>::iterator it;
20:07 < aiju> i doubt that
20:07 < nsf> yeah, that will be replaced
20:08 < nsf> with 'auto it = ...'
20:08 < huin> yourmap.begin();
20:08 < huin> or something
20:08 < huin> and there's some foreach construct
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20:08 < huin> but really...  it's not making the language attractive to me
20:08 < huin> just...  less ugly
20:08 < aiju> it's still C++
20:08 < nsf> it has other issues
20:09 < nsf> I know many of them
20:09 < nsf> context-dependent grammar with amiguities is the worst one
20:09 < nsf> together with preprocessor-based module system
20:10 < nsf> int x = !"123";
20:10 < nsf> valid C++
20:10 < nsf> crappy variable declarations
20:10 < nsf> etc, etc.
20:10 < nsf> I can continue forever
20:10 < plexdev> http://is.gd/ucRsjW by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/http/ --
http: fix IP confusion in TestServerTimeouts
20:11 < aiju> they just tried patching features into C whih don't match C at
all
20:11 < nsf> yeah
20:11 < nsf> the biggest thing I don't understand
20:11 < nsf> is why it's so successful
20:11 < nsf> or popular should I say
20:11 < aiju> Java is successful
20:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error:
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20:11 < aiju> C# is successful
20:12 < nsf> yes, yes, why?  :)
20:12 < aiju> it stopped amazing me
20:12 < aiju> that C used to be really popular is much more amazing
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20:12 < nsf> well, I understand the popularity of C
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20:13 < nsf> because it was created so early in the computing world
20:13 < nsf> I'm sure for its time it was awesome
20:13 < nsf> and for few decades after that time :)
20:13 < aiju> well
20:13 < aiju> there were languages like BCPL
20:13 < nsf> then people started to seek for something new
20:13 < aiju> which had more features and such
20:13 < aiju> string support, math support in the language
20:14 < aiju> early C was really just fancy machine code
20:15 < aiju> no typechecking, no real structs
20:15 < nsf> but C++, common
20:15 < nsf> I don't understand
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20:15 < nsf> and I hate one thing mostly in C++
20:15 < nsf> is the spirit of "better C"
20:15 < Namegduf> C++ let you use the C university and speed with all the
features you could ever want.
20:15 < aiju> long compiles?  :D
20:15 < nsf> it's not better
20:15 < nsf> it's worse
20:16 < aiju> Namegduf: except actually useful ones
20:16 < nsf> but people just think it's better because it is supposed to be
20:16 < aiju> like garbage collection
20:16 < aiju> or concurrency
20:16 < aiju> in a sane way, i mean
20:16 < aiju> what i like about LISP
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20:16 < aiju> you can write in any style you can pull out of your nose
20:16 < huin> i don't think C or C++ specifically support concurrency beyond
having a "volatile" keyword
20:16 < nsf> aiju: compilation time is out of discussion, everyone hates it
20:17 < aiju> huin: well, there are libs
20:17 < huin> yeah, but that's not the language
20:17 < aiju> huin: exactly
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20:17 < nsf> crappy libs may I add
20:18 < nsf> :)
20:18 < nsf> it's hard to find a good C++ library
20:18 < aiju> libs are always crappy, by defintiion
20:18 < huin> non-standard language libs
20:18 < nsf> half of stackoverflow threads point to boost
20:18 < nsf> >_<
20:18 < aiju> aargghh boost
20:18 < aiju> boost causes PTSD
20:20 < Namegduf> Boost should be included with C++.  It's a natural part of
the language's approach to problems.
20:20 < Namegduf> If it isn't working, add more features
20:20 < nsf> :D
20:20 < kimelto> sad but true
20:21 < huin>
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4980766/reserved-keywords-count-by-programming-language
(dunno about accuracy)
20:21 < aiju> COBOL has 500 reserved keywords
20:21 < huin> cripes
20:21 < aiju> "C 32" is guaranteed to be wrong
20:21 < huin> any space left for variable names?
20:21 < nsf> C: 32, what a nice language
20:21 < aiju> huin: COBOL code looks like "MULTIPLY X BY 100"
20:21 < nsf> aiju: is it?
20:21 < aiju> nsf: it depends on the standard :)
20:21 < nsf> :D
20:22 * huin feels ill
20:22 < aiju> standard COBOL coding style only adds fuel to fire
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20:22 < aiju> a simple program like reading a number in and writing it out
takes two pages in COBOL
20:22 < aiju> full of weird declarations and of course pages of comments
20:23 < nsf> sounds scary
20:24 < aiju> http://aiju.de/b/sqrt
20:24 < aiju> i wrote an actually working COBOL program for that page
20:24 < nsf> omg
20:24 < aiju> Identification Division.
20:24 < aiju> Program-ID.  sqrtpgm.
20:24 < aiju> Data Division.
20:24 < aiju> Working-Storage Section.
20:24 < nsf> C++ boost, lol
20:24 < nsf> longer than cobol
20:25 < nsf> for (unsigned i=0; i < m_Iterations; i++)
20:25 < nsf> wtf, where are iterators?
20:25 < nsf> :)
20:25 < aiju> that page upsets many people
20:25 < aiju> because i "mislead people"
20:25 < nsf> java looks funny too :)
20:26 < aiju> hell, this is NICE compared to actual java code
20:26 < nsf> :D
20:26 < aiju> S9V99999
20:26 < aiju> COBOL supported binary arithmetic only since '03 or similar
btw :)
20:27 < aiju> everything is done in BCD
20:27 < aiju> the really frightening thing is called ...
20:27 < aiju> VISUAL COBOL
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20:28 < nsf> http://aiju.de/b/configure
20:28 < nsf> lol
20:31 < uriel> nsf: haha
20:36 < nsf> http://aiju.de/rant/dynamic-linking
20:36 < nsf> nice page :)
20:37 < nsf> sadly if one writes a compiler and will say that he will not
support dynamic linking
20:37 < nsf> (like Go does)
20:37 < nsf> many people will be angry :)
20:38 < aiju> to paraphrase Elfriede Yellinek: "The compiler opposes society
by not pleasing"
20:39 < nsf> on the other hand every module system is a big problem when you
want to have dynamic linking support for that
20:39 < nsf> name mangling, complicated ABI's, etc.
20:40 < nsf> I think Go is the only compiler with a module system, where you
can just duplicate a library without recompiling it
20:40 < nsf> and it will be a different library
20:40 < nsf> because it does renaming, etc
20:40 < nsf> ugh..
20:41 < nsf> and no one tries to redesign linkers
20:41 < nsf> because it's like redesigning UNIX or C
20:41 < nsf> no one does that
20:41 < nsf> :)
20:41 < nsf> for some reason
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21:17 < kamaji> arg, I keep writing haskell in my slice literals :D
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21:20 < kamaji> :|
21:20 < kamaji> so apparently if you pass a struct pointer, it doesn't equal
type interface pointer
21:21 < kamaji> but it does if you do &(*data)
21:21 < skelterjohn> need more context
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21:21 < skelterjohn> do you have something that is of type *interface{}?
21:21 < kamaji> no, an interface with one function
21:21 < kamaji> Add(x float64)
21:21 < skelterjohn> type *interface{something}?
21:21 < kamaji> yeah
21:22 < skelterjohn> may i ask why?  this is almost always (but not always)
a bad idea
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21:22 < kamaji> I thought passing by reference was encouraged?
21:22 < skelterjohn> or at least, it's usually not what people mean to do
21:22 < skelterjohn> interfaces are pseudo-pointer types already
21:23 < kamaji> it's basically a utility method to apply the interface
function to a slice
21:23 < skelterjohn> ok, i don't think a *interface is what you want
21:23 < kamaji> oh
21:23 < kamaji> What else would I use?
21:23 < skelterjohn> just the interface :)
21:24 < kamaji> oh yeah you said that :P
21:24 < kamaji> That seems like odd behaviour
21:24 < skelterjohn> var a interface{Add(x float64)} = &mystruct
21:24 < kamaji> oh what
21:24 < skelterjohn> toss "a" to the function that applies it
21:24 < kamaji> actually, mystruct is already a pointer
21:24 < skelterjohn> the only reason you'd need a pointer to an interface is
if you'd want to modify that interface from somewhere else
21:25 < skelterjohn> then just = mystruct
21:25 < skelterjohn> you're already passing a reference
21:25 < skelterjohn> interface = reference + type information
21:25 < kamaji> seems odd that doesn't happen automatically?
21:25 < skelterjohn> it does
21:25 < kamaji> ok :P
21:25 < skelterjohn> by doing things like &(*data) you are forcing it to not
do this
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21:26 < kamaji> I should probably stick to the clearer approach :D
21:26 < kamaji> otherwise i'll look at that in a month and wonder what I was
smoking
21:27 < kamaji> Thanks :D
21:28 < kamaji> oh cool, gotest automatically finds TestFoo functions
21:28 < kamaji> mind = grown
21:29 < skelterjohn> http://pastebin.com/zss1hGjQ
21:29 < skelterjohn> this is what i'm talking about
21:31 < kamaji> Ah ok
21:31 < kamaji> Yeah that's what i've got now
21:31 < kamaji> cheeeeers
21:31 < skelterjohn> :)
21:32 < kamaji> incidentally it looks like i'm going to be using that
pattern fairly extensively, I wonder if that's a bad thing?
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21:32 < skelterjohn> no - that's a typical piece of go code to write
21:32 < skelterjohn> it's exactly what interfaces are meant for
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22:59 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eNlR4e by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/5c/ -- 5c:
make alignment rules match 5g, just like 6c matches 6g
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 19 00:00:50 2011