--- Log opened Wed Apr 20 00:00:50 2011
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00:10 < plexdev> http://is.gd/4lAJH3 by [Nigel Tao] in 109 subdirs of go/ --
src/pkg: make package doc comments consistently start with "Package foo".
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01:18 < vsmatck> Regex is so fucking slow.  Tried to use it twice now for a
lexer, I rewrote the first one, now I'm rewriting the second one.
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01:23 < vsmatck> errm, two different lexers.
01:25 < pTonnerre> I was just going to say, if you use regex twice that
doesn't make it faster ;)
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01:37 < vsmatck> :)
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01:59 < tyha2> if I have multiple goroutines blocking on a read from a chan
c, and I close(c), would that release all of the goroutines from the blocking
read?
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02:06 < dfc> tyha2: yes, i believe that is how it should work
02:06 < dfc> you should test it
02:07 < skelterjohn> that's what happens, yes
02:08 < skelterjohn> btw it is no longer possible to do a *non*-blocking
read of a channel, except using select
02:08 < dfc> cool, so the runtime will handle the wakeup on any goroutines
currently select'ing on chan c ?
02:08 < skelterjohn> "x, y <- ch" is no longer a non-blocking read
02:08 < skelterjohn> dfc: yes
02:08 < skelterjohn> to do otherwise would...be wrong :)
02:09 < dfc> yes, but it's always good to check these assumptions from time
to time
02:09 < skelterjohn> true
02:11 < |Craig|> skelterjohn: use a select with a default option
02:11 < |Craig|> so yes, there is no other way I think
02:11 < skelterjohn> yes, "except using select"
02:13 < plexdev> http://is.gd/1I0NBo by [Andrew Gerrand] in
go/src/cmd/goinstall/ -- goinstall: support building executable commands
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02:14 < tyha2> dfc: tested & confirmed; thanks.
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04:02 < Rakko> so tell me about this go thing
04:02 < Rakko> it's sort of object-oriented but without inheritance?
04:03 < Namegduf> It's not object orientated in any sense that involves
mentioning the word "object" in the specification or effective usage FAQ.
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04:05 < Namegduf> It's an imperative, strongly-typed programming languages
whose key goals include being fast to write, compile, and execute, maintainable,
simple, and "safe"; wrong code looks wrong, types are compile-time checked, etc.
04:06 < Namegduf> It has interfaces for abstraction, which you use when you
want to have the ability to handle any type with the right methods.
04:07 < Namegduf> Whether it's OO or not depends pretty heavily on your
definition of OO.
04:08 < Namegduf> That's an obvious tautology, I guess, but the definition
is vague and inconsistent enough that I don't know what version you're using.
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04:26 < Rakko> ok, thanks :)
04:28 < Rakko> I agree about the definition of OO. I don't subscribe to any
really restrictive definition of it.
04:32 < Rakko> Lately I've been mostly into dynamically typed stuff
04:32 < Rakko> but I'm thinking of learning something with inferred static
types
04:33 < Namegduf> Go is static, but with much of the ease of programming of
a dynamically typed language, through inference in variable declarations and in
general being designed to be efficient at the job.
04:33 < Namegduf> Worth a try, maybe.
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10:01 < hopso> I should really read through all the packages.  I found out I
had created a type which I could've implemented using binary.Read() and some
structs.
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10:45 < hopso> I think I need to get a new computer.  It's making a high
pitched sound and last time the PSU died few days later.
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12:20 < skelterjohn> morning
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14:13 < hopso> How can I use godoc to serve documentation of my own go app?
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14:17 < hopso> "godoc -http :6060 -path ." in the program directory did the
job :)
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16:42 < skelterjohn> slow news day
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17:21 < plexdev> http://is.gd/AJKNIJ by [David Crawshaw] in
go/src/cmd/gofmt/ -- gofmt: add -diff
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18:09 < plexdev> http://is.gd/QPl3TT by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- gofix, gofmt: update documentation
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18:32 < damikin11> hello, i was wondering if there was a chart that shows
go's order of evaluation (specifically, i do not know where remainder (%) compares
with comparison (==) in the grand scheme of things).
18:34 < skelterjohn> i don't know of any handy figure, but you can see what
the precedence is by examining the spec
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18:34 < skelterjohn> and i believe that % has precedence over ==
18:34 < aho> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Operator_precedence
18:34 < aiju> anything else is meaningless
18:34 < skelterjohn> that is, "x % y == z" is a valid statement
18:34 < aiju> a % (b == c) doesn't make any sense
18:34 < skelterjohn> right
18:35 < aiju> i think it's pretty easy to remember
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18:35 < damikin11> well, i was completely looking at the wrong section,
sorry about that
18:35 < skelterjohn> that one, yes
18:35 < aiju> anything like multiplication or division (incl.  shifts and
AND) is at the top
18:35 < aiju> followed by addition and subtraction & co (OR, XOR)
18:35 < aiju> followed by comparison, AND and OR
18:36 < skelterjohn> interesting
18:36 < skelterjohn> what is &^?
18:36 < skelterjohn> what is "&^"?
18:36 < aiju> and not
18:36 < skelterjohn> ok
18:37 < aiju> &^ bit clear (and not) integers
18:37 < aiju> notice it only now, too :D
18:37 < skelterjohn> hmm, since x &^ y gives the same result as x & (^ y)
18:37 < damikin11> thanks for the help all.
18:37 < skelterjohn> i wonder why it gets its own operator
18:38 < aiju> skelterjohn: typing, probably
18:38 < aiju> var x uint
18:38 < aiju> x & (^1) is invalid
18:38 < skelterjohn> because ^1 might not align with x?
18:38 < aiju> ^1 is -2
18:39 < aiju> which is not impliclity convertable to uint
18:39 < aiju> *implicitly
18:39 < skelterjohn> i'd think ^1 would be zero
18:39 < aiju> no ^-1 is zero
18:40 < skelterjohn> clearly i don't know very much about bit representation
for integers
18:40 < skelterjohn> and that's ok
18:40 < aiju> girls won't like you
18:40 < skelterjohn> i'm married
18:40 < skelterjohn> it's ok
18:40 < aiju> then it's not a real girl
18:40 < skelterjohn> right
18:40 < skelterjohn> the problem is moot
18:40 < aiju> you also can't enter heaven that way
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18:40 < aiju> peter refuses entry to people who don't know two's complement
18:40 < skelterjohn> without knowing about bit representations for integers?
or being married
18:41 < skelterjohn> there are a number of reasons that will prevent me from
getting in
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19:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/z1gxbp by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/reflect/ --
reflect: update CanAddr, CanSet documentation
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19:29 < plexdev> http://is.gd/2HcVbf by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/net/ --
net: use C library resolver on FreeBSD, Linux, OS X / amd64, 386
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19:44 < skelterjohn> is there a function in the go runtime somewhere that
will kill a process, given its PID?
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19:44 < aiju> os?
19:44 < aiju> syscall?
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19:45 < skelterjohn> like, for instance syscall.Kill
19:45 < skelterjohn> stupid nsf's gortfm
19:45 < skelterjohn> i type in Kill there and the screen was full of about
9000 things
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19:52 < nsf> skelterjohn: you just don't know how to type
19:52 < nsf> http://ompldr.org/vOGNxYw/2011-04-21-015834_836x641_scrot.png
19:52 < skelterjohn> it's possible
19:53 < skelterjohn> i did type just "kill"
19:53 < skelterjohn> which seemed like a good idea at the time
19:55 < skelterjohn> if you do "kill", almost everything there does not have
the string "kill" in it
19:55 < skelterjohn> so i'm not sure how that's supposed to work
19:59 < nsf> the problem is that I do search in constants as well
19:59 < nsf> and syscall has big constant groups
20:00 < skelterjohn> i see
20:01 < skelterjohn> so if kill is in any of the group's constants, it shows
the whole group?
20:01 < nsf> yes
20:01 < nsf> golang.org doesn't search constants as well
20:01 < nsf> :\
20:01 < nsf> s/as well/at all/
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20:07 < nsf> skelterjohn: but I agree it's not the best idea ever
20:08 < nsf> showing constants in groups only
20:09 < skelterjohn> as long as i know, now
20:12 < ww> [ f(x) | x := <-ch ]
20:13 < ww> for _, y := range [ f(x) | x := <- ch] { ...  }
20:13 < ww> that's what i say.
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20:17 < plexdev> http://is.gd/JyO1FF by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ --
gc: fix error for +string
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20:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/SP8mpf by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/reflect/ --
reflect: add Type.Implements, Type.AssignableTo, Value.CallSlice; make Set match
Go
20:35 < plexdev> http://is.gd/eRpTw2 by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/ld/ -- ld:
remove MachoLoad limit
20:37 < skelterjohn> ww: i find that when i go nuts with python list
builders that the code gets quickly unreadable
20:37 < nsf> I think features should solve real problems
20:38 < nsf> uhm..  I can't say if that feature solves any problem
20:38 < skelterjohn> though i'd suggest [ f(x) | x := range ch ] instead of
[ f(x) | x := <- ch ]
20:38 < skelterjohn> but my first choice would be none-of-the-above
20:39 < nsf> for x := range <-ch { y := f(x); ...  }
20:39 < nsf> is this correct?  looks even shorter to me
20:39 < nsf> a feature that makes trivial things longer?  :)
20:40 < ww> it's just syntax sugar...
20:40 < ww> but, nsf, it would make converting from a sequence of things
sent over a channel to a slice and back easier and shorter
20:40 < ww> how common a case that is i'm not sure
20:40 < hopso> Syntax sugar makes me think of APL
20:40 < aiju> syntactic sugar causes cancer of th esemicolon
20:41 -!- zerosanity [~josh@8.20.178.82] has quit [Remote host closed the
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20:41 < aiju> *of the
20:41 < nsf> personally I would choose something like blocks syntax sugar
20:41 < nsf> instead of list comprehensions ala python
20:41 < nsf> blocks are more flexible
20:41 < aiju> blocks are even worse
20:41 < aiju> i don't get them at all
20:41 < nsf> no
20:41 < nsf> try using ruby
20:41 < nsf> just for something
20:41 < Namegduf> Never
20:42 < ww> but a range over channel would be useful instead of for { x, ok
:= <-ch; if !ok { break; } ...  }
20:42 < ww> which seems unnecessarily verbose for such a common construction
20:42 < Namegduf> Go has range over channels?
20:43 < Namegduf> for v := range c { }
20:43 < ww> Namegduf: maybe it should.  it doesn't unless i've missed
something
20:43 < Namegduf> It does.
20:44 * ww facepalm
20:44 < Namegduf> And it is nice and makes things simpler in real code
20:44 < skelterjohn> oh - yeah you can just do
20:44 < skelterjohn> for x := range ch
20:44 < Namegduf> So it was such a good idea it already existed, heh.
20:44 < skelterjohn> didn't realize that wasn't clear
20:44 < nsf> aiju: for example in ruby: a = [1, 2, 3, 4, -1, 5, 6];
has_negatives = a.one?  { |e| e < 0 }
20:44 * skelterjohn dies
20:44 < Namegduf> I have no idea what that code does.
20:45 < aiju> me neither
20:45 < Namegduf> Okay, I have an idea now but it's horrible
20:45 < aiju> if i want terseness i use K
20:45 < nsf> or you can do it differently: all_positives = a.all?  { |e| e
>= 0 }
20:45 < ww> isn't that an elephant tranquiliser?
20:45 < aiju> |/(x<0)
20:45 < skelterjohn> a.one?  fails for a set of size 2 or more, i'd think
20:45 < aiju> beat THAT
20:45 < nsf> skelterjohn: what?
20:45 -!- dahankzter [~henrik@92-244-3-192.customers.ownit.se] has quit [Remote
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20:45 < aiju> you can even leave out the braces
20:45 < aiju> |/x<0
20:46 < skelterjohn> a.one?  { |e| e < 0 }
20:46 < Namegduf> a.exists would be clearer
20:46 < skelterjohn> what if there were two elements in
20:46 < Namegduf> If you're going to mimic set theory
20:46 < nsf> skelterjohn: one?  means "at least one satisfies that block"
20:46 < skelterjohn> oh wait i didn't read it right
20:46 < skelterjohn> nsf: rather than "exactly one"
20:46 < skelterjohn> which is what "one" usually means
20:46 < Namegduf> I don't find that readable, or think it's a common case
20:46 < skelterjohn> a.exists() would be nice
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20:46 < skelterjohn> if i cared about ruby code
20:46 < Namegduf> "exists" is unusual
20:47 < Namegduf> "all" is a more common requirement for error checking
20:47 < Namegduf> And you're still only getting somewhat terser for the cost
of more complexity
20:48 < Namegduf> Which means whether you get a readability improvement
depends on the ratio between those things.
20:48 < Namegduf> I don
20:48 < Namegduf> *don't think you come out on top with syntax like that.
20:48 < exch> { 1 2 3 4 -1 5 6 } [ 0 >= ] filter
20:48 < exch> doesnt get much simpler than that
20:48 < skelterjohn> if by "simpler" you mean "shorter", aiju demonstrated
something
20:49 < aiju> i find the imperative way the most flexible
20:49 < aiju> i always quickly end up at some limit with K
20:49 < aiju> and if it's just performance
20:50 < aiju> (most of my K programs calculate twice or worse as much as
necessary just to keep the program short)
20:50 * ww wonders why aiju keeps going on about tranquilisers
20:50 < Namegduf> Terseness is no more an ultimate good than DRY or
modularisation or pretty much anything else.
20:50 < Namegduf> In terms of readability/simplicity I think it by on large
hurts those things more than it gains in most attempts to deliberately get it.
20:50 < aiju> K is a great trolling tool, though
20:50 < nsf> but the main point about this syntax sugar, is that it answer
to a lot of questions
20:50 < Namegduf> I mean, look at Perl.
20:50 < nsf> for example, sorting:
20:51 < Namegduf> Syntax does not exist to "answer questiosn"
20:51 < nsf> s = [...]; s.sort {|a, b| a < b }
20:51 < Namegduf> That is not within the scope of a programming language
20:51 < Namegduf> So you can use it as a very compresses closure.
20:51 < skelterjohn> what does |a,b| a < b mean
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20:52 < nsf> skelterjohn: func(a, b T) bool { return a < b; }
20:52 < skelterjohn> so a lambda function
20:52 < nsf> but this is not a lambda
20:52 < Namegduf> I'm not convinced this has enough benefit in real code to
be worth the significant complexity add of having to learn a new syntax for these
things
20:52 < skelterjohn> seems like a lambda
20:52 < nsf> blocks can be implemented with lambdas
20:52 < nsf> but inlining is a better idea
20:53 < skelterjohn> a lambda is just an anonymous function, usually with a
closure
20:53 < nsf> because calling closure it's a pointer dereference and a
function call
20:53 < nsf> I don't need that
20:53 < Namegduf> Unless they're unlined.
20:53 < Namegduf> *inlined
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20:53 < aiju> unlining
20:53 < aiju> sounds like an idea for boascript
20:53 < Namegduf> Regular functions and closures can be inlined, too.
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20:53 < aiju> unclosure unlining
20:53 < Namegduf> Nothing special there.
20:53 < nsf> Namegduf: like C++ does, sure
20:53 < nsf> but it's stupid
20:54 < Namegduf> What is?
20:54 < nsf> I mean programmer relies on a specific optimization
20:54 < nsf> it should be guaranteed
20:54 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
20:55 < nsf> in one case function is inlined, code becomes fast..  in other
case it isn't
20:55 < Namegduf> Perhaps, but that's a related issue.
20:55 < Namegduf> *unrelated
20:55 < nsf> and there shouldn't even be a choice
20:55 < nsf> whatever
20:55 < Namegduf> And applies to functions and closures in general as well
as this weird special closure syntax.
20:55 < ww> inane ubuntu podcast
20:56 < aiju> ubuntu implies inane
20:56 -!- r_linux [~r_linux@189.38.220.35] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
20:56 < ww> apparently there's a funny interview with a collegue from soton
where the ubuntu person has no idea what he's talking about
20:57 < skelterjohn> what is soton
20:57 < ww> i'm stuck listening to some stupid name the ubuntu release quiz
show before
20:57 < ww> skelterjohn: southampton, university of
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20:59 < Namegduf> nsf: If you wanted a more concise closure syntax, it'd
probably be better to look at ways to remove existing elements from the current
form, anyway
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20:59 < nsf> I don't want closures at all
20:59 < Namegduf> It's code defined inside a function with access to the
external scope
20:59 < Namegduf> It's a goddamn closure
21:00 < nsf> call it whatever you like
21:00 < Namegduf> They can make up extra words for it all they like, it
still meets the definition
21:00 < Namegduf> If you think it'd be good in Go, you need to fit it into
Go's existing definitions and syntax rather than injecting a huge block of Ruby
terminology into it.
21:00 < nsf> if it's inlined it's just a chunk of text
21:00 < Namegduf> Really.
21:00 < nsf> or AST
21:00 < Namegduf> Which is true for all closures and functions.
21:00 < nsf> I don't care about Go
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21:01 < btipling> wrong channel then
21:01 < btipling> aren't ya
21:01 -!- hopso [~hopso@a91-154-1-209.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts
21:01 < nsf> indeed
21:01 < btipling> cya
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21:01 < btipling> thank god
21:01 < exch> :p
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21:03 < hopso> I need sleeeeep, too much server design for today.
21:03 < hopso> Nights :)
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21:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/KKm43m by [Brad Fitzpatrick] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- http: don't proxy loopback addresses
21:06 < plexdev> http://is.gd/zRreV3 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: use new Implements and AssignableTo methods in reflect
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21:23 < plexdev> http://is.gd/YykDMk by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/net/ --
net: fix windows build
21:23 < plexdev> http://is.gd/clKCa9 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
gob: have errorf always prefix the message with "gob: "
21:30 < skelterjohn> is there a way to use a regexp.Regexp to split a
string?
21:30 < skelterjohn> basically, i want to split a string based on "," or
"\t"
21:31 < skelterjohn> actually, nevermind.  it just occurred to me that i
mght look for an existing csv library
21:32 < ww> skelterjohn: http://golang.org/pkg/strings/#FieldsFunc
21:33 < skelterjohn> thanks though
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22:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/FXsu7M by [Russ Cox] in go/src/ -- run.bash:
remove redundant rebuilds
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 21 00:00:50 2011