--- Log opened Sun Jul 10 00:00:56 2011
00:02 < fvbommel> Usually not, no.
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00:05 < fvbommel> In real program it usually only happens if you have a
goroutine that performs a long calculation.
00:05 < fvbommel> Or that has a bug and gets stuck in an infinite loop, I
suppose :).
00:06 < tav> hmz
00:06 < tav> anyone know what the aim is behind the new exp/template package
?
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00:38 <@adg> str1ngs: in what sense?
00:41 < str1ngs> adg: ie I want install to a directory and tarball
00:43 < str1ngs> the way it works now GOPATH installs to the root of the
first entry found.  but if there are no src/pkg/cmds it skips it and installs to
the next one found
00:43 < str1ngs> unless I'm doing it wrong?
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01:06 <@adg> it should install packages to the first GOPAT
01:06 <@adg> if they're not present on the system
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01:09 < str1ngs> even if the GOPATH is empty?
01:09 < str1ngs> I mean the GOPATH entry has no sub directories
01:17 <@adg> str1ngs: it should do
01:17 <@adg> it should mkdir src
01:17 <@adg> if not, that's a bug
01:18 < str1ngs> ok I'll look into it more.  and make an issue
01:22 <@adg> thanks
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01:31 < angasule> if I have a "conn net.Conn" and I do "defer conn.Close()"
then that means that conn will stay in memory until the defer is executed, right?
Also, is it safe to call Close on an already closed connection?  (I'm guessing it
is...)
01:32 < yebyen> check Conn.Close() docs, does it have any chance to throw a
fit?  most likely it can just return error status, which you would ignore
01:32 < yebyen> i don't think you can have an error while closing
01:36 < angasule> I really love gofmt...
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01:56 <@adg> angasule: the convention is to allow closing more than once
01:56 <@adg> angasule: also, close doesn't release any memory, the gc does
that
01:56 <@adg> angasule: closing a net.Conn closes the underlying socket
(mostly), which is definitely something you should do
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02:03 < angasule> adg: oh, yeah, I'm just thinking that I should be more
careful about where I put the defer
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06:41 < exch> http://acooke.org/cute/GoRocksHow0.html
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07:00 < jessta> exch: yeah, Go isn't a functional language.
07:01 < smw> exch, I must say I agree with one line somewhat.  if the
language is doing
07:01 < smw> things that you, as a programmer, can't do, then it's likely
not a
07:01 < smw> well-designed language.
07:01 < smw> exch, it kills me that append() could only be implemented as a
builtin
07:02 < jessta> smw: if the language lets programmers do everything the
lanauge can do then you have lisp
07:02 < exch> for the record: that is not my article
07:02 < jessta> and all the problems that go withit
07:02 < smw> I don't know lisp
07:03 < smw> anyways, it still kills me that append could not be implemented
in standard go.  They should have tried to make it implementable, not just cheated
and made a builtin :-P
07:06 < jessta> append() being written in Go would require a decision on
generics
07:06 < smw> I have never quite understood what generics were...
07:07 < ww> exch: good article
07:07 < jessta> the need for append() was greater than the need for generics
and it's better not to rush generics
07:07 < smw> ok
07:08 < smw> I still don't know what a generic is :-)
07:09 < ww> a generic is a thing that helps stave off carpal tunnel syndrome
07:11 < KirkMcDonald> smw: Parameterized types.
07:11 < KirkMcDonald> Also functions.
07:12 < smw> KirkMcDonald, so they are functions?
07:13 < KirkMcDonald> smw: In essence, generics allow you to pass types as
arguments.
07:13 < ww> smw suppose you wanted to implement an ordered map (tree instead
of hash table)
07:13 < ww> and you wanted to keep static compile-type type checking
07:14 < smw> ah!  so it is like a java arraylist?
07:14 < smw> ArrayList<atype>
07:14 < smw> or even go maps
07:14 < KirkMcDonald> smw: Yes, that is an example of a generic in Java.
07:15 < smw> awesome, I think I understand it now :-)
07:15 < KirkMcDonald> smw: The angle-bracket syntax is how Java does
generics.
07:15 < KirkMcDonald> It was cribbed from C++'s syntax for templates, which
are like generics but moreso.
07:15 < smw> ok, now it finally makes sense...
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07:16 < smw> the stuff I tried to read on what generics are was not useful
07:16 < smw> I have tried to read them multiple times.
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07:17 < KirkMcDonald> One of D's main features is that it has templates in
the C++ sense, but a little more powerful, and far easier to understand.
07:18 < KirkMcDonald> I'm uncertain whether I'd want to see full-fledged
templates in Go.
07:18 < KirkMcDonald> They are very powerful, but there are some excellent
reasons to leave them out.
07:18 < vsmatck> The C++ template system has issues.  It's not easy to do
well.  But the usefulness of generics is unquestionable.
07:19 < smw> KirkMcDonald, I am still waiting for a newer compiled language
to take off...
07:19 < smw> KirkMcDonald, it seems like C/C++ still dominate completely
07:20 < KirkMcDonald> A lot of the power of C++'s templates is accidental.
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07:20 < KirkMcDonald> D's advantage is mostly the ability to look at them
with hindsight.
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07:21 < smw> KirkMcDonald, but it still can't beat C :-(
07:22 < KirkMcDonald> As I understand it, people did not immediately realize
that C++ templates were Turing-complete.
07:22 < smw> KirkMcDonald, I don't know what that means...
07:22 * smw goes to google
07:22 < vsmatck> People figured out you can write programs with C++
templates that execute entirely at compile time.
07:22 < KirkMcDonald> smw: It means that they can theoretically perform any
computation that any other Turing-complete system can.
07:23 < vsmatck> This is good because it can allow you to move processing to
compile time.  But it requires you be a f'ing genius to write.
07:23 < smw> lol
07:24 < KirkMcDonald> vsmatck: Yeah.  D makes it so you don't have to be a
genius to do it.
07:24 < KirkMcDonald> Which is nice.
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07:25 < smw> vsmatck, as an example, I could make it compile a regex at
compile time?
07:25 < KirkMcDonald> A guy once wrote a compile-time raytracer in D.
07:25 < smw> vsmatck, sorry, we need to eventually put it into concepts I
can grasp ;-)
07:25 < vsmatck> smw: Yeah, there is a boost library that does exactly that.
07:26 < ww> so *that* is why compiling c++ programs takes so long :)
07:26 < vsmatck> Well, yeah if you had a program with a ton of template meta
programming in it it would take a while.  That's not generally the reason it
compiles slow though.
07:27 < vsmatck> In C++ when you import a header it's basically substituting
that #include "foo.hpp" for the contents of that file.
07:27 * ww was being a teensy bit facetious
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07:27 < vsmatck> It does that recursively such that sometimes in a simple
program you can actually be compiling tens of thousands of lines.
07:27 < vsmatck> ah
07:28 < smw> KirkMcDonald, from what you told me, templates sound really
good :-)
07:28 < Jessica_Lily> templates create code bloat though....
07:28 < KirkMcDonald> smw: Like I said, they are very powerful.
07:28 < KirkMcDonald> smw: However,
07:29 < vsmatck> Templates don't have to create code bloat.  Depends on how
they're implemented.
07:29 < KirkMcDonald> smw: One way to look at C++ is to see it as four
entirely distinct languages crammed into the same space.
07:29 < Jessica_Lily> vsmatck: really?  I've not seen an implementation
which doesn't
07:30 < smw> Jessica_Lily, what do you mean code bloat?
07:30 < KirkMcDonald> smw: These are the preprocessor, C, the extensions on
top of C that comprise C++ "proper," and templates.
07:30 < vsmatck> If they're implemented as compile time specialization
they'll make the binary big.  If you do some sort of boxing setup your binary
doesn't get big but you sacrifice a little run time performance.
07:30 < Jessica_Lily> Ah i see
07:30 < KirkMcDonald> smw: It is probably not a good thing to have all of
these different things hanging around.
07:30 < Jessica_Lily> smw: urm you create multiple versions of it for
different types of data and stuff
07:31 < KirkMcDonald> smw: One reason I like Go is precisely because it is a
single thing.
07:31 < smw> KirkMcDonald, I like it for its simplicity.  But I still have
not found a good project to do in Go.
07:31 < Jessica_Lily> smw: Go seems good for most things.
07:31 < KirkMcDonald> smw: The danger with adding templates on top of it is
ending up with two languages, in the same sense that C++ has four.
07:33 < ww> istr there is a preprocessor that you can use with go for some
generics...
07:33 < KirkMcDonald> ww: We can safely call that "not Go" and ignore it.
:-)
07:34 < KirkMcDonald> Incidentally, this is also a reason why I like Python.
07:34 < ww> this one: https://github.com/droundy/gotgo
07:35 < ww> (and why on earth is google telling me that i've moved and might
want to use google.co.uk - i haven't even left the country for close to a year...)
07:35 < Jessica_Lily> maybe they're suggesting you should leave the country
for suggesting the use of Go with templates D: xD
07:37 < smw> http://i.imgur.com/ZyeCO.jpg
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07:40 < vsmatck> flower pot..  :)
07:40 < smw> vsmatck, yep :-)
07:41 * ww likes the LaTeX one :)
07:41 < smw> I like the python and html
07:42 < Jessica_Lily> haha :) Thats brilliant :P
07:42 < smw> but they are all great.  I am guessing the C++ one is referring
to templates
07:42 < Jessica_Lily> smw: Yeh, it is.
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08:08 < vegai> http://acooke.org/cute/GoRocksHow0.html
08:08 < vegai> oh, exch pasted that already
08:08 < vegai> disregard
08:16 < vegai> articles like this make me like go even more
08:16 < vegai> when none of the "sucks" points seem like bad things
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08:18 < vegai> "Fucking Scala (that's the official language name, I
08:18 < vegai> believe) is the best argument I have that Go's creators know
more than the
08:18 < vegai> academics."
08:18 < vegai> :-}
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08:29 < hsaliak> vegai: that was a nice and balanced article - basically
everything sucks, stick with one that sucks less for you
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10:07 < zozoR> vegai, what is continueations?  :s
10:09 < zozoR> "Do we have to choose between Go and Fucking Scala?" xD
10:14 < fvbommel> Continuations are weird.  If you need to know more, google
for them.
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10:37 < leb> ?
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10:46 < tildeleb> anyone
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10:46 < tildeleb> ?
10:46 < tildeleb> and the beat goes on
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10:49 < vegai> zozoR: they allow one to do crazy things without leaving the
language
10:49 < vegai> such as your own control structures
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10:50 < zozoR> lol
10:50 < zozoR> xD
10:51 < vegai> one example of nice use of continuations is in the seaside
web framework
10:51 < zozoR> DO THIS 10 TIMES YOU FUCKING COMPUTER {
10:51 < zozoR> }
10:51 < zozoR> :
10:51 < zozoR> :D
10:51 < vegai> you can program a web application in a straight-forward
procedural way, and have continuations take care of the http statelessness issue
10:52 < vegai> it's yet another one of those academic wankery type of things
that make the language a lot more complex so you can make some things a tiny bit
more elegant
10:53 < zozoR> i like how go keeps it simple ^^
10:53 < vegai> (not really, just trying to troll a bit)
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10:55 < exch> academics usually dont bother with reality.  It's just too
messy
10:58 < tildeleb> I have "type sh1h [20]byte"
10:58 < tildeleb> and want to do something like
10:59 < tildeleb> const sh1h =
[]byte(0x1ceaf73df40e531df3bfb26b4fb7cd95fb7bff1d);
10:59 < tildeleb> any ideas?
11:06 < aiju> http://h3.abload.de/img/achkatehexu.png
11:06 < zozoR> []byte{"0x1ceaf73df40e531df3bfb26b4fb7cd95fb7bff1d"}
11:06 < aiju> the KDE team translated "Go" to "Gehe zu", lol
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11:06 < zozoR> lol wth aiju XD
11:06 < aiju> (DISCLAIMER: i neither use KDE nor use german localization,
someone else made this picture)
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11:17 < tildeleb> zozoR that doesn't work
11:17 < tildeleb> those hex digits are nibbles
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11:23 < zozoR> loop through the string then
11:23 < zozoR> and append
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11:44 < fvbommel> tildeleb: []byte{0x1c, 0xea, ...  } ?
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15:37 < iXeno> lo...  so, what would you say is the prime showcase or
example of a mainstream project developed in go?
15:38 < exch> Probably Go itself
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15:40 < huin> i've not used it, but doozer maybe?
15:40 < huin> well, not mainstream, but certainly useful :)
15:41 < huin> it's not sexy, but one of those quiet key pieces of
infrastructure
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15:42 < jessta> http://tinkercad.com backend is written in Go
15:43 < aiju> huin: doozer?
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15:43 < huin> hm
15:44 < huin> seems to 404 on github now :/
15:44 < str1ngs> huin: google go appengine
15:44 < huin> str1ngs: you might want to direct that to iXeno
15:44 < str1ngs> iXeno: ^^
15:45 < huin> aha: https://github.com/ha/doozerd
15:47 < jessta> http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=135488932982
"smart tweets" is another
15:48 < jessta> iXeno: what kind of projects are you looking for?
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16:05 < iXeno> jessta: both something that gives a reason to actually learn
go, and also to work as a good example of go code
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16:06 < exch> Go standard lib code is for the most part agoo source to learn
from..  Not sure about the inspiring part though.  That depends on what you are
interested in I guess
16:08 < jessta> iXeno: camlistore is an interesting one
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16:13 < iXeno> exch: the inspiring part is something that shows that go is
actually used for something real...  given that it's years old now, if the only
thing implemented in go is the go standard library, it's basically dead
16:14 < exch> it's not even 2 years old :)
16:15 < exch> http://go-lang.cat-v.org/ this lists some community projects
in Go. Perhaps there is something of interest
16:16 < exch> And there's this: http://godashboard.appspot.com/package
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16:17 < rael_wiki> hello
16:17 < exch> lo
16:17 < jessta> hey
16:17 < str1ngs> exch: I smell a troll
16:17 < str1ngs> lo...  so <-
16:18 < str1ngs> if you start a question with that..  hard to take your
question seriously
16:19 < skelterjohn> iXeno: i do all my machine learning software with go
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16:20 < jessta> iXeno: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~petar/5ttt.org/ is
probably the biggest Go project besides the stdlib
16:21 < skelterjohn> whether he's a troll or not (and i don't think he is),
it's a valid question that we should try to answer
16:21 < rael_wiki> is it possible that using netchan some data sent on
exported/imported channels get lost?
16:21 < skelterjohn> rael_wiki: check your error messages
16:22 < rael_wiki> skelterjohn: do you mean with Importer.Errors?
16:23 < skelterjohn> any error that can be checked, check it
16:23 < skelterjohn> if something is going wrong, one of the errors should
tell you why
16:23 < rael_wiki> lol, ok
16:24 < rael_wiki> I've checked everything except Importer.Errors, now I'll
try with it
16:25 < str1ngs> skelterjohn: he was given a couple of examples.  then he
twisted the use the stdlib for code reference into.  "if the only thing
implemented in go is the go standard library, it's basically dead"
16:25 < str1ngs> I call that trolling
16:26 < skelterjohn> i read it as him saying why his question was a
reasonable one
16:27 < str1ngs> I did not say his question was unreasonable.  his response
to the answers are
16:28 < skelterjohn> i don't think i said you thought that.  w/e
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18:52 < str1ngs> hmm how do dynamically create a struct type using reflect.
In the package I can only find ways to make other types.
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19:22 < jessta> str1ngs: you can use reflect.TypeOf(new(somestruct))
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19:22 < str1ngs> jessta: the struct is not know I need to dynamically make
it
19:22 < str1ngs> known*
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19:25 < uriel> str1ngs: you can't (currently) make new types with reflect,
AFAIK
19:25 < uriel> I think this has been discussed in the mailing list, and
there might be an issue about it
19:25 < str1ngs> ah I was wonder if that was the case.  so built in's only
19:26 < str1ngs> ok I only really need to make a ast I think.  so I think I
can get around it
19:27 < str1ngs> ast might be the wrong term.  w/e the go code reprentation
is
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19:28 < uriel> ? the go/ package should do all you need, no?
19:29 < uriel> (but I have no clue what you are trying to do)
19:29 < str1ngs> I think so , just not there yet
19:29 < str1ngs> I'm taking json and outputing the go code representation
19:30 < str1ngs> so I can quickly make structs matching various json api.
19:31 < str1ngs> curl http://www.foo.com/person.json | jstruc ..  would
output the go code for the struc
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19:51 * uriel is happy with the current json and json-rpc apis
19:52 < str1ngs> think you missed my point
19:52 < str1ngs> this creates go structs from json
19:52 < str1ngs> to be used with the json package
19:53 < Namegduf> You can unmarshall into an interface{} for the current
json package to do that.
19:53 < Namegduf> I guess you might avoid some runtime reflection doing it
prior to compile time.
19:53 < str1ngs> right
19:54 < str1ngs> I'm unmarshalling to an interface{} then useing reflect to
hopefully spit out go code.
19:54 < str1ngs> right now I make most of the structs by hand
19:56 < uriel> str1ngs: you are probably right that I'm missing the point
19:56 < str1ngs> I sense sarcasm :P
19:56 < Namegduf> It'll still be using reflection to figure out what struct
you passed and what parts of it match.
19:57 < Namegduf> So I'm not sure what I expect performance-wise.
19:57 < Namegduf> It does mean other code could be written to use the type
type-safely, though.
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19:58 < str1ngs> in a nut shell instead of me creating the structs byhand
this would spit it out.  I can than take it put it in my code.  fix it up and away
I go
19:58 < uriel> 19:56 < str1ngs> I sense sarcasm :P
19:58 < str1ngs> at the least it would give a better look of what the struct
should look like vs json
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19:58 < uriel> str1ngs: in this case there was no sarcasm
19:59 < str1ngs> uriel: ah I was half joking its ok.
19:59 < str1ngs> anyways its not a serious project just an excuse to play
with the reflect package.
20:00 < uriel> playing is fun :)
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20:19 < fotang> how to uninstall a 'goinstall'ed package?
20:20 < str1ngs> fotang: find the directory in $GOROOT and remove it
20:21 < aiju> get a magnetic needle and your hard disk
20:21 < str1ngs> it does actually support removal right now
20:21 < fotang> ok
20:21 < fotang> aiju: i got a steel needle instead
20:21 < str1ngs> doesnt*
20:21 < str1ngs> keyword there :P
20:21 < jessta> fotang: you might also want to remove it from goinstall.log
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20:24 < fotang> found that
20:26 < fotang> the packages that one goinstalls: after updating go, it
looks as if they all have to be reinstalled
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20:49 < jessta> fotang: yeah, goinstall -a
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20:55 < skelterjohn> add a -clean on there if you updated go
20:55 < skelterjohn> otherwise it will see the .6 files as being up to date
20:57 < skelterjohn> or if you use gb, "gb -R" will take care of everything
:)
20:57 < skelterjohn> including rebuilding the necessary goinstalled packages
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20:58 < skelterjohn> well, unless it doesn't depend on anything from the
core
20:59 < skelterjohn> i wonder if i should add an automatic dependence on
runtime
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21:20 < jnwhiteh> Anyone have any idea what this is?
https://plus.google.com/104095653470568187885/posts/j3GipyPqgVS
21:20 < dlowe> it's a URL!
21:20 < dlowe> oh, that.  It's a rosehip
21:20 < jnwhiteh> dlowe: oh!
21:21 < jnwhiteh> you win =)
21:21 < dlowe> :D
21:21 < jnwhiteh> I've been trying to figure this out for a year!
21:22 < dlowe> they're edible too
21:24 < dlowe> I think I might write a rogue-like for a Go pet project
21:24 < jnwhiteh> ooh
21:24 < jnwhiteh> that sounds fun!
21:24 < dlowe> I'm getting tired of MUDs :/
21:25 < dlowe> I can't make myself write another mud codebase :p
21:25 < jnwhiteh> work on our Minecraft server!
21:25 < jnwhiteh> its got some really interesting decisions to be made
architecturally
21:25 < dlowe> I bet.  But I've just recently burned out on Minecraft
21:26 < jnwhiteh> :P
21:26 < dlowe> anyway, it's a moving target
21:26 < jnwhiteh> yeah, that's true
21:27 < dlowe> talk about a project where the specifications are constantly
changing and the person writing them won't tell you what they are
21:27 < dlowe> I think Notch has made enough dough that I wouldn't feel bad
making an entirely new open-sourced clone
21:28 < jnwhiteh> yeah
21:28 < jnwhiteh> I'd be interested in that
21:28 < dlowe> even though it would be reviled at large, I'm sure
21:28 < jnwhiteh> given Terraria's reception initially, yeah
21:29 < dlowe> yeah, and it wasn't even that much of a clone
21:29 < skelterjohn> dlowe: you should make a multi-player rogue-like.
21:29 < skelterjohn> like, 2 player
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21:29 < skelterjohn> so it can still be turn based without getting stupid
21:29 < skelterjohn> that could be really fun
21:29 < dlowe> skelterjohn: I suspect 2-player would be exactly as hard as
n-player
21:29 < skelterjohn> to code, yes
21:29 < skelterjohn> but to play, much easier
21:30 < skelterjohn> since you only have to wait for 1 other, instead of n-1
other
21:30 < dlowe> among a cooperative group of friends, I think an n-player
might still work
21:30 < dlowe> especially if you kept the chat going
21:30 < dlowe> "Dammit, move already!"
21:31 < dlowe> That could honestly be quite amusing
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21:34 < dlowe> I'll probably cut my teeth on a single-player at first,
thoguh
21:34 < dlowe> Just getting the a nice display working is work enough
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22:06 < dlowe> what's the stylish way to build strings incrementally?  s = s
+ "new bits"?
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22:14 < exch> that works
22:15 < exch> or use a bytes.Buffer.Not sure if that qualifies as stylish
though
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22:15 < dlowe> I'd say that was a bit more stylish
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22:28 < angasule> there is no way to do a select on net.Conn or similar,
right?
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22:33 < angasule> oops, time to go
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22:41 < nicka> Anyone have experience using C function pointers with cgo?
22:41 < nicka> Calling the function specifically
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23:17 < mcfuzz> nicka, I just realized that if your still having problems,
you may try adding a .c/.h file to your project and try implementing a C function
which is passed a function pointer and an argument list, and simply calls the
function passed in with the given args.
23:18 < mcfuzz> then in a Go file you can call the function pointer by
giving it to your defined function.
23:18 < jessta> dlowe: it's best to avoid the '+' with strings, if you're
doing a lot of it.
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23:23 < nicka> mcfuzz, you mean one C function for each type of function
pointer?
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23:23 < mcfuzz> nicka, possibly, yes.  I don't know what your program's
demands are.
23:24 < mcfuzz> nicka, but i don't know if there is another way to do it
23:24 < mcfuzz> that is just a hack
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23:26 < nicka> Just making sure you didn't have any function pointer tricks
in mind
23:27 < nicka> I did that already for a few to test things out, and it's a
hack but it'll work for now at least
23:27 < nicka> thanks
23:30 < mcfuzz> yea, it sounds like a real pain if you needed to call a lot
of different function pointer types.  sorry i couldn't be more help.  good luck
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 11 00:00:56 2011